The Quiet Power of the Empathetic Leader with Navy SEAL turned rowing coach Gordon Schmidt

0:00 This episode is brought to you by True Classic. They're a great company and I love their CEO. I've actually been wearing their t-shirts long before they became a sponsor. Their stuff is pretty fantastic, so do check it out. Do you prefer coaching teens or do you want to go back and coach SEALs? If the Navy called you and said, we're looking for somebody to coach SEALs, would you entertain the job if it meant leaving the kids?

0:23 Oh, if it meant leaving them. I don't know that I can answer that question. It would be a torturous decision. It would be a torturous decision. When we try to think of what it takes to inspire a team, we often picture a big dramatic speech or making some sort of bold, powerful move. But sometimes it takes a lot less.

0:47 Simply understanding how a team is feeling is all it takes to inspire them and help them operate at their natural best. That's what I love about Gordon Schmidt. Gordo is a retired Navy SEAL who spent nearly 20 years leading teams in combat and has found his second act as a high school rowing coach. For Gordon, great leadership is not about making a big scene.

1:14 It's quite the opposite. It's about quietly guiding people when it matters most. This is a bit of optimism. you had what some people at least from looking from the outside and had one of the coolest jobs passion-driven amazing team spirit how long were you in the navy uh i was in 20 years and six months 20 years and six months and you left very recently you haven't been out very long about a year and a half but a year and a half and now you coach rowing yes how did you get how did you make the leap from you know because you know the stereotype is like i'm going to become a consultant i'm going to become an author i'm going to become a public speaker you know i was a navy seal let me tell you how to lead you know how did you get to the

2:08 the job you have now who are you coaching so i coached at san diego rowing club and it's the high school program, specifically the men. And how did I get into it? So I rode at the Naval Academy. So I had that background. And then I pretty much hung up the oar for the entire time I was in the Navy. Post-retirement, I went for a few months where I just, that was tough.

2:35 It was a tough time. I was really kind of wallowing. And I had a former teammate from Navy who lives in San Diego as well. He's also in the Navy still. You know, I talked to him and he'd say, you should come out and row. And I don't want to, I don't want to, I, I was in the past. I don't want to do it.

2:51 Bygone era. Yeah. And he's convinced me. And finally, you know, I show up and the funny part is that the first practice I went to with this master's rowing program, which is master's rowing is just post-collegiate, you know, this high school, which is called juniors collegiate. There's the elite level, the Olympic level, and then everybody in between is just a master's rower.

3:15 But I showed up and the first practice was a seat race, which is when you line two boats up next to each other, you race a certain distance, usually about three minutes or a thousand meters, and then you swap rowers and race again. And you compare the margins to determine who the faster rower is. So the very first practice, we were seat racing.

3:36 And I thought, well, you know, I'll just be in the boat rowing and it'll be fine. And I had no idea that my seat race was up. Now, mind you, I hadn't done this in about 22 years. So you can imagine my surprise when the coach was like, okay, uh, Gordon and John. And I was like, is it my, I'm supposed to switch now.

4:02 And I remember there was a guy behind me in the boat who goes, who the hell is Gordon? And I was like, that's me. I guess, I guess it's my turn. How many guys in the boat? We raced in eights that morning. So two boats of eight guys each. And, and, and I was off to the races, you know, getting back in the boat and feeling the rhythm and the flow.

4:23 And it just, it's riding a bicycle. It came right back. And I remembered how much I loved it and competed with the master's program through the summer. We did very well. There's a national championship for master's rowers. And towards the fall within the community of rowers with San Diego Rowing Club, one of the guys mentioned, he said, hey, the juniors program is looking for a new head coach.

4:47 The guy who was the head coach is moving on to a college program. So anyone interested, contact the guy who runs the program. And I thought to myself, well I'm interested that might be fun so I did and I was honestly kind of surprised to get the job I had zero coaching experience and the guy who hired me I asked him a little while after I was hired I said you know I'm just now learning who also applied and there was a great candidate pool guys with lots of coaching experience people who knew San Diego Rowing Club who applied why'd you pick me and he said well i know you know how to row and i know that you've dealt with the entire spectrum of the male ego referring to my military experience so i was like oh hi we

5:35 chuckled about i said yeah that's that's accurate he goes that's all it takes and i said yeah okay fair enough what have you discovered about yourself now that you are coach gordo coach schmidt they call you coach right yeah of course yeah yeah some of them call me gordon i quietly prefer that they call me coach gordon but that's okay there's some things so that's something you know you have to with this generation you have to be okay with some things you know it can't be yeah um i gave up the military life i don't expect anybody to call me sir right or stand at attention when i walk in the room but um you know there's a little bit of I'm your coach.

6:17 Yeah, I'll be coach. What have I learned? I think patience is probably the first thing. I've learned that you had to learn it. No, you you've learned that coaching is patience. Well, coaching is patience. I've learned that I'm a more patient person than I thought I was. That's a good lesson. A nice realization.

6:37 It's a nice realization. But it also it requires me to I'm aware when I'm doing it so oh you know you're being like I am being patient like you're present yes and and that awareness I don't think I had before so how is a crew team like a SEAL team and how's the SEAL team like a crew team in so many ways because you know how many how many guys in a in a I mean you got with eight guys right I know it's a range it's a range sure um and different missions could sure could but eight eight is not unusual it wouldn't be unusual okay so eight eight v eight how are they the same oh man male ego we got that one coordination was a fact got that one coordination um so i i've always just in reflecting on my own

7:30 choices in life and and what i loved about the sport of rowing all of those things were i think the same things that drew me to a career in the SEAL teams. So if you boil it down, I mean, the differences are obvious, but the similarities are fast. I mean, just going through buds, you're in a boat crew.

7:53 It's called a boat crew. You know, that's how you're trained to, to survive and to get through it. And you realize through pain that working together is the only way to success, which is an inherent aspect to the sport of rowing. I'll make a distinction here. I think there's a difference between rowing and crew.

8:17 Rowing is the overall sport, but you can row by yourself. You can row in a single skull, and you can compete in a single skull. But crew requires a crew. It requires a team. Literally. and there's various sized boats but the fact that it's crew and not just rowing i mean rowing is what the guys in a crew do right this is the i grow crew is what people say right yeah i've seen bumper stickers to say i play crew which is sort of a joke on the whole sport but that aspect of it that you're required to work together and that the teamwork is is the only thing that that makes it successful, I think is, is a, is a distinct aspect of that kind of corner of rowing.

9:02 So, I mean, you, you touched upon it a little bit, which is you loved being a SEAL. It is a job of passion. I mean, I know it ups and down, of course, but you said you wallowed a little bit after you left. Is that because you had mistaken your identity for your job? No, no. Which happens a lot. It does.

9:25 But I mean, the two are intertwined, but I also really tried to keep it separate. In fact, so much so that when people, when I was on active duty and people would ask me, what do you do? I'm in the Navy. What do you do in the Navy? I would answer, I'm in the SEAL teams. Which is, I am a SEAL. I always had a hard time saying that.

9:44 And I don't know why really, other than maybe I just, I didn't, it wasn't so much my identity as it was the group that I was with or the, it felt weird taking full ownership of. It seems healthier. Maybe. I am a SEAL as an identity. I'm in the SEALs is a job, an act of service. Yes, but it was. But I think that where the wallowing comes in is that I realized once I was out that it was so much a deep part of who I was.

10:18 And then also, you know, the loss of a brotherhood. I mean, that sound is deafening. I had a friend tell me once we were talking about having a similar conversation and he said, hey, in the teams, what they always tell you was the loudest sound in the world. I said, oh, that's easy. Your gun going click in a firefight.

10:39 Whoops, that's a loud sound. and he said wait until you get out the loudest sound in the world is the gate shutting behind you and uh i remember the day you have to turn in your badge and then you have to badge out of the gate so somebody walks you out you know somebody i didn't know not a friend just random person some random guy escorted out and i remember sort of pausing at the gate and he badged and the gate opened and I stood there for a second.

11:10 He's like, you good? I was like, yeah, I'm good. And as I stepped through the gate and it closed behind me, this pit in the bottom of my stomach of feeling that loss, you know, feeling that, you know, it's now a thing of my past as opposed to what I do now. Um, so, so I, I can't honestly say that it wasn't a deep part of my identity.

11:33 yeah so every vet i ever talked to whether they were in for a short period or a long period whether they loved the military hated the military a hundred percent of them no matter what they do next misses the brotherhood and the sisterhood that they had of course in the in in the service which makes sense and and special operators that camaraderie is even more exaggerated so it makes sense that the loss is even more exaggerated, you know, where it's not just something I loved.

12:02 And it was my favorite thing about being in the military. But to your point, like, it's an identity. I mean, you know, somebody says, I'm in the Navy, and I do this job, versus I'm in the teams. It's literally called that, you know, like the crew. It is. So So what was it that you reef that you because i haven't seen you this happy i mean you you and i haven't known each other a bunch of years i've known you when you were active duty i've been around for trials and tribulations i've known you since you got out and some of the i think i'm going to try this i think i'm going to do this what if i did this like some of the spitballing and throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks and i haven't really seen you since you got this

12:51 new job no it's been a it's been a bit and you have a calmness about you now that you didn't have for a while and so what i'm so curious is like what did you find other than the team like what have you found that you either didn't know you were looking for or maybe you did and you found it but like what did you find here that you're in that same place you were before like belonging identity, whatever you want to call it.

13:22 Well, the coaching certainly helps. There's a lot of purpose and, and value in that. And I, you know, I see the impact I have on these young guys lives. And that, that means a lot, but really to the wallowing, there was a point in time for me where I had to accept the loss. I was actually talking to my wife about this the other night.

13:51 I think that I was harboring a deep, deep sadness. And it was the loss of my friends who had been killed. It was the loss of SEALs I'd never met who had been killed. And then the departure that I just described, really, there's a finality to it. You feel like you just got off a freight train that's still moving and carrying your life and your soul with you.

14:20 And now you're standing there and it keeps going. And I think coming to terms with that loss, agreeing that I'm no longer going to numb that, I'm just going to embrace it. I think that that was a necessary growth. Did that happen before you found the coaching or did the coaching help you get over the loss?

14:40 Right about the same time, actually. Coincidentally? Coincidentally. And the timing couldn't have been better because I don't think I could show up for these guys in the state that I was in. What was the process that helped you come to terms with the fact of accepting something you could not have back?

15:00 Something that was so important to you fully integrated into your own, who you are. I'm so curious. Was it your wife? Was it therapy? Was it exercise? Like, what was it that was it just time? Like, what was it the thing that helped you accept loss? That's a great question. And I don't know that. I don't know that it was any specific thing other than i think that i got to a point where i was just i was tired of numbing and you know that the line from shawshank redemption this is one of my favorite movies get busy living or get busy dying right and i think that uh that i was numbing so much the sadness and the pain of what I had experienced.

15:55 And we're not talking combat trauma. That's some of the most resilient people I know are the most hardened combat veterans I know. It really isn't that. It's more just in a general sense, the loss. And when I just decided I was no longer going to numb, that I was going to accept, I think that that was really the switch.

16:20 and and to a decision it was a decision and the rowing helped really i mean it gave me a place to be every day that was full of purpose and full of drive and and i mean really i i can tell you that they're they're inspiring to me these young athletes it doesn't replace yeah yeah of course it doesn't replace right but it um a new relationship won't replace an old relationship Sure.

16:45 But it's a new, it's, it's something new where I can still be fulfilled in the same way that I was fulfilled before. Yeah. Can you tell me a story about one of your rowers that you have learned something about yourself as a person, as a coach, as a dad, as a, you know, as a husband that you learned from one of these teenagers?

17:07 Sure. So selection for the top boat is, that's always... Is that like varsity? It's called the varsity boat, but typically the whole team is the varsity team. But within a team, and this is true on the collegiate level as well, there's tiers of boats. And depending on the size of the team, you could go, you know, five or six boats deep.

17:31 And we have about four, four eights worth of guys. And so there's obviously a selection for the top boat, which is going to compete against other teams' top boats. When I first came into it, and I was kind of doing a togetherness sort of right seat, left seat thing with the outgoing coach. And I would sit in the launch during practice and I didn't say much.

17:58 I would just sort of observe. And it was very clear to me in, in the first week that I was watching this, who the top rowers were with the exception of maybe one guy, I could tell you who, who the top eight guys were. The selection for that was important because about a month after I took over, there was a, there's a big race in Boston called the head of the Charles.

18:21 Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's a huge thing because you can only take one boat. It's going to be the top boat. And the athletes have to fly across the country. I mean, we were coming from San Diego. So, so it's a big deal. And I had to name that boat about 48 hours after I took the job, which like I said, wasn't difficult to see.

18:41 But the question in the back of every coach's mind is, is that really the right combination? And are they all sitting in the right seats because the order matters. So we go to that race and we did well. And we came back, finished out the fall, and now we're into the spring racing. And so there's still the question of who's in this top boat.

19:04 It was the same eight guys who went to Boston in the fall. But I wasn't convinced. And so I took one guy out and I swapped him with a younger guy. The guy I took out was a senior, great kid. I swapped him with a sophomore, young guy. And the boat did well. They won, they went to a race up in Long Beach, and they won handily against their competition.

19:32 And what I observed in this young man, when I took him out of the boat, was he went through, and I've seen SEALs do this, he went through this sort of emotional roller coaster. At first, he was really angry and then he was kind of sad and then he was a bit isolated. And then finally, I, I said to him at one point, I said, listen, your job right now is to make whatever boat you're in the fastest boat that is possible.

19:58 So I can right now you're in this boat. And I've always made it clear to these guys that nothing's permanent. No changes are permanent. Everyone has an opportunity to compete and to prove themselves, you know, at least worthy of, of a seat race. Like I mentioned before about, you know, determining who, who can make the boat go the fastest.

20:20 He didn't say much in that conversation. He just kind of nodded his head. That was the end of, of practice that day. We went on a couple more weeks and I watched this kid every single day come in and work. I mean, there was no practice that was off. there was no practice that was hey i'm not really feeling well today i'll just pull lightly you know there was nothing like that and this kid attacked everything and i quietly observed this two or three weeks later i mean i was convinced he was he was the right guy for the boat and he's back in there now so you know what did i learn from from this i see things like that and it's constant reminders every day of what I loved about the SEAL teams, what drove me to get there.

21:12 It's reminders every day of seeing a guy, you know, with his back up against the wall, about to lose something that he really wants. And rather than pissing and moaning about it, but to actually take charge of his situation and go after it again. It's such a good lesson, right? Which is, it happens all the time, which is somebody gets, not necessarily demoted, although that sometimes happens, but somebody gets moved onto a project they don't want to be on, or teams get sifted around all the time in the private sector.

21:47 And instead of moping around, you can go through the process of mourning. You said he was angry and that's fine. Of course, we have goals. His identity was, I'm in the lead boat. I'm in the top one boat. That's part of his identity. and then say, no, my job is to be a member of a crew. And even if I'm on a different boat, I'm going to make sure that that's the best damn boat in its category.

22:09 That's a hard lesson to learn. It seems like it's simple, but not easy. Why don't most people, like, well, like he's a, look, he's a great rower. He was on the top boat to begin with, right? He's clearly a disciplined athlete. He does the work. He shows up every day. If he had been bitter and angry and he never got over that and coach is an idiot and he doesn't see my talent.

22:32 Then he would have proved my point. He would have proved your point and he would have been a mediocre rower for the rest of the season. Sure, and the boat that he was moved into would have suffered. Would have lost, yeah. Or suffered, yeah. Because it's not just about talent and strength. It's culture.

22:49 There's a culture within a crew and it has to be positive. Any crew, I don't care how fast you are, you have to understand as a crew how to be in control of the race if you're down. If you have 500 meters left in a 2,000 meter race and you're down by a length or half a length to your opponent, having the composure and the confidence to know we're still in control, we can still win, that's huge.

23:19 And I mean, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun being in a boat that comes from behind to win. the elevation that you feel in that kind of a win is far more fun than getting out early and staying out and winning by a lot do you prefer coaching teams or do you want to go back and coach seals if the navy called you said we're looking for somebody to coach seals to do doesn't matter what would you entertain the job if it meant leaving the kids off it meant leaving them um see thanks for adding the twist at the end there um i don't know i i i really love coaching yeah in general as i got older in the seal teams i spent a lot of my time mentoring and coaching the younger guys in fact just a week ago some guys

24:09 who are working through some mission planning stuff. It was a guy who I had mentored a few years ago who's now in charge of some others and wanted me to come back and help out. And I was overjoyed that I got the call and I went down and spent my days. But you didn't answer the question. Doing that. I don't know that I can answer that question.

24:33 It would be a torturous decision. It would be a torturous decision. Yeah, because I still have a deep affection for the SEAL community and, you know, at the drop of a hat would do that. You demystify, I think, people's stereotype of a SEAL, you know? Does that mean I don't seem like one? I think if people take what they know from the television and from movies and from books and from some of these larger than life personalities who like used to be SEALs and now they're, you know, whatever they're doing now, you are not like that.

25:07 yeah i think if people met you i don't think that that would be their they wouldn't label that stereotype on on you i think it's one of the things you and i connected on very early on which is there's a i don't want to say softness but a humanity that you bring to leadership and that you bring to what it means to be an officer in the seals that it's not just about grit and brawn and you know like those things matter hey i didn't see you you're very brawny you're very brawny but you've said it you've said it a thousand times which is you have to be strong you don't have to be the strongest you have to be fast you don't have to be the fastest you have to be a good shot you don't have to be the best shot right you've said that a hundred times and the guys

25:49 who compete only to be the best the hardest the fastest they miss the plot and there's a there's a culture to the team and i think people when they think of seals they think of buds which is partially brawn but it's also a mental game yes that some of the strongest guys fall out and some of the scrawny guys make it through are there more like you or are you in the exception to the rule i don't think i'm an exception i'm just asking i don't i mean i only know a handful i think that i mean well to address the you know you don't have to be the best shot or whatever I think that there's a very healthy culture in the SEAL teams of wanting to be the best shot, wanting to be the fastest runner, wanting to be the fastest swimmer.

26:37 It's just mature SEALs who recognize like, nah, swimming's not my strength or running's not my strength. And then they kind of gravitate to what they do know. So there's nothing wrong with the wanting. No, in fact, it's important. It's not only important, it would be concerning if you didn't. Right. Because you have to have a push and a drive to be better, better, better.

26:58 And the guy who's better than you, he's a pacer. Like when I go out for a casual run versus when I run in a race, I run faster in a race than I do for a casual run, even if I want to run fast, because I have someone ahead of me who I want to run in front of. Sure. Yeah. No, there has to be a competitive nature or else, you know, you're never, you're not getting better.

27:18 Right. But understanding that more important than being the best shot is being the best team. Yeah. It's strong teams that are successful, not strong individuals. This is the single most misunderstood thing in the private sector. And I have learned from the teams. I've shared, you know, some of the stuff I learned from our mutual friend, Rich Devaney.

27:42 that he's taught me when he was director of training and some of the stuff that's put out there by former SEALs. And it is amazing to me how often in private sector people take lessons taught about or from SEALs and attempt to apply those to individuals. But it's not, it's all about the team. It's the highest performing organization.

28:02 It's a high performing organization made up of individuals, obviously, but not necessarily the highest performing individuals. Right. That detail is so commonly lost. It is so misunderstood. And I wonder, have you run into that since you've left? I mean, you haven't really done the whole work at a desk thing since you left.

28:21 Congratulations, by the way. Well done. I don't know if that's congratulations or maybe I'm just lazy. No, no, no. I think you dodged a bullet. I can't imagine you showing up in a suit sitting at a desk. I can't. I don't have it in me. I don't have it in me. Part of me wishes I did. Why? You just said it.

28:45 It's not about what you're, it's about finding out what your lane is. Yeah, I suppose. That's not your lane. It's somebody else's lane. And like my lane is not your lane. Like I've hung around with seals. There's no way. I definitely don't have the physical fortitude to get through buds. I know that.

29:02 I don't have the mental fortitude to get through buds. You know, I couldn't do it. But I still get along with them because I relate to them culturally. like this they don't look down on me because i don't have the grit or the stick with itness but they they because i connect with them culturally and understand the culture of the teamwork and the togetherness and the love yeah um you know i've been very grateful that i've been sort of accepted in accepted in when i went to visit but also it's important to note i mean i i would i would tell you that i don't i don't have the grit to do what you do i don't and and and i think give Wait, wait, wait.

29:40 What grit do I have that you don't have? I really don't think so. I would never want to write a book. That's pretty awful. I would never want to do that because I just, that sounds to me like I'm back in high school typing away at an essay and I've got a deadline and I've got to get it done. And that was hard.

30:00 I don't want to do that again. And writing a book just sounds like it takes grit that I don't have. I'll call bullshit, right? because you did many things that you did not want to do, including sitting in cold surf arm in arm with, you know, potential seals. But there was... And you did things once you were a seal that you didn't want to do because it was just, it was not fun at all, but you did it because there was a reason that you were doing it.

30:28 There was a reason to put up with it. I don't enjoy writing books. I enjoy moments of it, but as a whole process, I it works to all of my weaknesses like I like working in groups I have to work by myself yeah I like short and fast it's long and slow I like to be an instant expert it's a torturous you're a reminder of what an idiot you are you know the whole time it plays to all my weaknesses and the reason I do it is not for the joy of writing there are many people who have the joy of writing and are good at writing books and churn them out I'm not that guy I write the books that I write because I get to the point where I have an idea set that I need to share.

31:05 And I put up with it for that, you know, one year or two years, however long it takes me to write the book. I put up with it because the work, if I can get it out there, will have a greater impact. And then I'll be done. It is finite, thank goodness. I'll either succeed or I'll fail, but there's a beginning, middle and end.

31:21 So I know that. It's not going to be forever. And I put up with it because because there's a higher reason to, which is no different to. And I bet if you had an idea set, or you had a reason or a calling, or somebody was pushing you, I think the reason most people don't have the grit is because their ideas generally, they're good ideas, but they're not ideas that people are begging for.

31:45 So the only reason I wrote a book is because my early work, people kept saying, this is so helpful to me. Can you help my friend? Simon, can you please write this down so i can give it to somebody else not my desire to write the book and you get to the point you're like i can't talk to everybody and meet everybody but if i wrote this down then i could talk to everybody's friends no that makes sense it's a very rational approach and the grit follows the grist follows so the grit follows and so i think i think i think you'd surprise yourself probably like you surprise yourself at buds well no so i was able to tap into grit to get through that because I saw a community and a brotherhood that I wanted to be a part of and I was willing

32:26 to pay the price of admission. You saw a message that you needed to get out and you were willing to pay the price of admission to get there. That's a great paradigm. It's the same grit. That's a great paradigm, which is there's a cost for everything we do. Is this cost worth it? I love this concept of the price of admission, right?

32:46 Which is how badly do you want this? Today's episode is brought to you by True Classic. And this ad that you're about to hear isn't really like a normal ad. I sat down with Ryan, their CEO, and we had a conversation about his journey, about the lessons he's learned, so that we could use some of those clips to share with you.

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33:35 Where do I even begin? How do I infuse comedy into T-shirts? How do I infuse wholesome content? How do I show people what we care about and how we make an impact for people? How do we get that across so that people understand our why and what's important to us as a culture? But also somebody can come up with an idea and go, I think we should do this.

33:56 And you'd be like, I think it's a terrible idea. Try it. Like, I have to believe that you'll say that. Oh, yeah. You may disagree with it. What you're doing that I think is really important and what I'm learning is so often in businesses of every size, there is eventually one person who is the idea killer.

34:14 I don't like it. It could be for objective or subjective reasons. I don't like it and I'll never see the light of day. Your mentality is, I don't like it, let's try it. That's exactly right. Even if it's risky, by the way. So your willingness to be proven wrong is part of the magic because you don't think you have a lock on ideas or decisions.

34:32 It's the iteration and allowing anybody to have an idea and the merit of the idea will be proven by the market, not by some executive. I think we were talking, or maybe it was someone else I was speaking with about quitting, about quitting buds. And why do people quit buds? You know, it takes, in these days, before it was kind of like you signed up and they said, oh, you sure you want to do that?

34:59 Okay, yeah, sure. And you go. Nowadays, the guys who find themselves to buds have gone through a lot of barricades to get there. So when they finally show up and they quit, it begs the question, why would you quit? And I've always said, I think it's because they're not being honest with themselves about what they want.

35:22 It's not just about sitting in cold surf or being uncomfortable. Yeah, that's what you have to do to get through it. And this is the other thing. People ask me sometimes, I've had a question about this recently. They said, you must have had a really compelling reason to want to be a SEAL. and I said well I just wanted to be a part of the group and they said I don't buy that I was like no I just wanted to be a part of the group it was a pretty compelling reason and they said well you know but to go through all that and I said that's just what someone else decided was the price of admission the price of admission that's just and I said what what is it six months okay that sounds awful but all right that's the ticket price yeah that's the ticket and

36:05 And so what enabled my success, and I think what enabled anyone who gets through that program, is that they're honest with themselves about wanting to be a part of that group. So one of the guys, okay, great. So take me through that story. So nowadays, the pre-selection is, you know, you have to be in certain physical shape, you have to pass all kinds of mental fitness barriers, you know, all of these things to even get to the place where you can even be a tryout for buds.

36:31 Right. What are they lying to themselves about? Like what is the lie they're telling themselves when they, you say they're not being honest about why they want to be in the team, why they want to wear that trident. Is there a common, is there a common lie? Maybe. And I think that it has a lot to do with whatever they perceive the status of, of having that title.

36:59 I think that it might have to do with, and we're trying to put itself in the minds of somebody who would go to buds and not and quit right i think that you know they they look themselves in the mirror and say i yeah i want to be a seal but they have no idea what being a seal really is and they would laugh if i if i could be there in that moment and explain like if i if someone had told me prior to going to buds why are you doing this?

37:30 Oh, okay. Because I want to be a SEAL. Okay. Do you know what being a SEAL is going to involve? Being a SEAL officer, do you know what you're going to be doing? You're going to be on this computer program called Defense Travel System. And you're going to have to, and it's going to freeze on you every three minutes.

37:47 Windows 95. And it's in Windows 95. And you're going to have to do this by noon today. And you've got to get a plane ticket. And by the way, you can only fly American Airlines. And then, oh, and you have to do that for your whole team. And you have to get them all set. And, and then, you know, report to the commanding officer that I'd be like, what happened to the to the to the shooting and the blowing things up and swimming and diving?

38:11 And what about that? Well, yeah, there's a little bit of that, too. But actually, you're going to be, I would have been like, no way. I want to do this. And so, so I, so, you know, my motivation was not to be a SEAL, although this sounds very strange. My motivation was to be a part of the group, a part of the brotherhood.

38:32 I saw those guys and I said, I want to serve with those guys. Right. And I'm willing to do what it takes to get there. And once I'm there, if it means having to get on DTS and fill out orders and get stopped five times because the computer crashes and then have to change my password. That's part of it.

38:52 Okay. So there's a price of admission, there's a price of staying yeah and if that's what it is when i'm there i'll be fine but i'll look around the room and i'll be with these guys and that'll and that'll be worth it has it changed in this in this day and age has it changed with like because they may be physically fitter the young seals that are coming in well at the point they get to but yeah you know much instead of this young generation being more selfishly motivated you know but for all the reasons that we see in the outside world does that affect the percentage of seals that are able to make it through buds these days?

39:19 I don't think so. Interesting. And I know that there are statistics out there on this, and I can't quote them, but I don't think that attrition has appreciably changed over the years. In fact, the only time it really changes is in the winter when the water's a little colder. The other thing that I remember, I went out to Coronado and they let me be there for a a portion of buds to sort of like see it happening, which was amazing.

39:49 And I see when they quit, they ring the bell and they put their helmet on the ground. And as the weeks progress, you can count all the helmets of all the people who quit. Right. And the thing that I thought was interesting was he was like onesies, twosies, you know, somebody quit and somebody quit. But then when you, you can see in the helmets, like you see an officer's rank on that helmet and then immediately there's like three enlisted guys right after right after him a quit in quick succession why is it it's not a coincidence why is it that when an officer drops that in that in quick succession it's not one season two season anymore it's like three within within a very quick period of time why is why is that well i think i mean there's

40:33 the obvious, you know, you're put in a leadership position as an officer through BUDS. And like you or not, the guys, they see you as a leader. And if you're, if you are a good leader, and if you're well liked, and if you are physically fit, and you're, and you're crushing the various events, and then you quit.

41:00 And remember, age matters too. So most, most officers are a little bit older going through buds and most enlisted guys are a little bit younger. Some of them are, you know, some of them are very young, 17 or 18. And most officers are, the young ones are 23, 24. So that I think plays a factor. And, and, you know, a young guy who's maybe on the fence about whether or not he can, he can do this, he can climb the mountain, sees a guy who's older fitter stronger charismatic whatever um likable he quits and then it becomes this kind of like oh my god if he didn't make it there's no way i can make it now here's this is an interesting one if you've ever noticed i don't know if you've had the opportunity to actually

41:46 see the quitting in process but if you've ever seen an officer quit and then nobody else quits for a while, that officer made the right decision. Okay. Oh, interesting. I've seen that before. Unaffected, ineffective leader. Good riddance. Good riddance. Yeah. So the, oh, interesting. So when an officer quits and nobody else quits, they're happy to see him go.

42:11 For a period of time. Right. Eventually something will catch up. Sure. But when there's one and then the quick succession, it's the psychology where, which is they're gaining strength from their officer. it could be some combination of I don't want to let him down or wow if he's sticking with it I can too to what you said is and if he can't do it there's no way I can do it but it works for all ranks we only notice the officers more because the helmet has a stripe on it and you say oh okay it's the quick succession if there's a young kid and then immediately two or three others right after him then that kid was a young leader that kid was a leader So this really, really underscores, you know, A, that leadership has nothing to do with rank.

42:56 Right. Everybody understands it intellectually, that if a leader can, a leader sets the tone, a leader sets the example. And especially in an extremely difficult time, if a leader is able to push through, especially with a great attitude, pushing through with a bad attitude, as you said, good riddance.

43:11 Right. But pushing through with a great attitude really does carry people. It does. Yeah, for sure. I saw it firsthand in my own, my own buds class. There was a, um, I don't even remember the guy's name. Um, but he was the leader of, you know, the, I'm sure you've heard stories about the Smurf crew. Go on.

43:33 They're the smaller, smaller, uh, less height advantaged members of the class and the class is important. It's such a heightest thing for saying for somebody. How tall are you? Six what? two okay as a smurf now you would have been in the middle um i'm five nine no these guys are like five one okay okay they're actual smurfs they're small guys but it's very heightist in buds it has to be because for the whole first part of it you're carrying a boat on your head so you need to do it with similarly altitude impaired or advantaged people okay uh so he was he was the officer of of the smurf group and for some reason and i don't know this and i think i think that most people will agree with me it's the large group like they call them the giants

44:26 the jolly green giants it's those guys and it's the smurfs that are always competing with each other and then everyone else kind of falls in between yeah it's like the small guys have something to prove and the big guys just have long legs so they're able to stride out farther i don't know what it is, but there's like, there's some rivalry between those two groups.

44:44 So I knew this guy well, and I saw him and I, and I, not just that, but I saw the dynamic in this crew and those guys did not like him. I don't know what that was all about, but I, I know that he was, you know, he, it was really mostly in his tone and how he treated them. And I remember when he quit and they cheered.

45:06 Wow. Dark. It was in Hell Week. It was the first morning. So we started on Sunday night. By Monday morning, he quit and they cheered him off the beach. Wow. And I remember sitting there thinking, oh God, I need to make sure I stay in good standing with these guys because, you know, I would hate for them.

45:28 I mean, I'm not going to quit, but I hate for them to sit there and be Cheering me off the beach as I, you know, failed at the program, like that would be. Yeah. And, you know, it's little things like that. It was little things like that throughout my career, really, that lasted, that I saw that I was like, okay.

45:45 And I would take those as cues of the example that I needed to be and the type of leader that I needed to be because that's what worked. How much of it is preference? preference. We were talking about this before, before we went on, before we turned on the microphones, which is there are some leaders personalities that I am drawn to.

46:05 I'm drawn, like I would follow you. I'm drawn to your leadership style. And there are some guys that their style just turns me off, but it works for other people. You know, sort of the screamy, sort of like, it's not my thing, but for some people they love it. And so how much of it is, is like, are good leaders transferable to all personalities or is some of it kind of luck of a draw if you get a leader that resonates with your personality like the guy who the smurfs cheered off could he have been an effective leader for a different group of personality no no no and and and i think it came down to respect and and tone you know you're always being watched as as a leader is you know it's just a thing it's you're being watched when you're not in the room

46:47 authenticity respect for those in your charge the tone you take with those in your charge all of that matters so much and that has nothing to do with the style like i may not like somebody's style but i really respect them as a leader in fact i've i've you know i throughout my career you know there would be somebody like i'd be going to go work for somebody and i wouldn't know who it was and someone would tell me oh well he's an asshole but at least you know it yeah and so what that tells me is the person who had experience working for that leader may not have liked their style but didn't mind working for them because they were predictable yeah and authentic even if the style wasn't necessarily their favorite i did a personality

47:35 assessment a bunch of years ago and one of the guys who was administering the personality test was sort of explaining it to us and explaining like how you get evaluated and he says you know I'm he says this test proved you know showed me that I'm this and I already knew that because I'm an asshole and and I was like don't you want to work on that like the test affirmed you just use it as an excuse to get away with being an asshole like I agree by the way I find you that way as well the test agrees maybe you want to like work on that a little bit like if it's effective I don't think it was okay I thought he was an asshole I want you know like couldn't wait to get out of the room okay well then yeah so i think we need another word because

48:19 i think asshole even though we may use it colloquially i such an asshole he's like do you say it with a smile did you say it with a grimace you know yeah like i think at various points throughout my career you know especially episodically i'm sure my team has called me all kinds of names be you know in when i'm not in the room but i'm hoping that i i hope i mean they're all in the room.

48:41 I should just ask them. They're all conspicuously quiet. I'm hoping that at least they can say it with a smile. Like they recognize that it's episodic, that it's, you know. I've learned that if I'm going to change styles, because you have to change styles for the circumstances, right? You know, leaders in the military, they ask opinions, they're curious what other people say, they want to get feedback.

49:07 But when you're in a firefight, you are absolutely command and control. I don't have time to get your feedback. You've earned the trust to, you earn the trust first in order to turn on the command and control switch. But then when you're done, you turn the command and control switch off. And the mistake that I see people, especially in the private sector who totally don't understand military life, they are command and control all the time and nobody wants to work for them.

49:29 Right. And so I think for me, it's context, which is context and communication, which is, I know I have to modulate. Sometimes I get the modulation at the right time, sometimes the wrong time, you know, sometimes overly, you know, kumbaya on a time where I really need to turn it on. Or sometimes I turn it on too early or turn it off too late.

49:47 But I try and explain, look, this is going to happen. These are the circumstances. I'm going to be different. I'm going to turn on this switch. And at the right time, I will turn it off. But this is how it has to be for this short period of time for this reason. And I found that to be helpful to offer people guidance.

50:08 Yeah. Yeah. A technique that it's, there's an irony to this. But one that I, I think just fell on by accident once is, if you kind of so in those moments where you would expect a leader to be command and control, or even yelling, and it would be appropriate and nobody would fault you for it. If you can take a moment and be the opposite in those moments, it unearths so much, so much.

50:43 It's amazing to do. And I'll give you an example. So it's a combat example. There was a lot of shooting going on. There's a back back and forth. And I remember coming over radio and saying in this tone, Hey, John, whoever it was, I need you to do something for me, which is not what anyone would expect to hear in that situation.

51:08 Instead of, you know, what would have been totally appropriate, which is I need you to do this for me now. And I don't want to hear your opinion. Hey, how's it going up there? I need you to do something for me. And then immediately got back. Hey, boss, what can I do for you? And it was in this is a conversation happening in in sort of a dire moment.

51:27 I don't know what possessed me to act that way in that moment. Other than it calmed me a bit. And I feel like it calmed the person. Is this pilots and air traffic controllers? No, because you know, pilots and air traffic controllers are insanely calm, especially when things go wrong, right? And they have to be an air traffic controllers are trained to stay calm to keep the pilots calm because they're the ones you know on the burning plane no this was me talking to a guy who was pinned down and and he came back equally calm yeah it was like we were sitting at a coffee shop having a conversation and and what's the lesson calm breeds calm i don't know i think that the the connector is engaging the human side yeah and not being robotic or unemotional about it yeah it's

52:22 sympathy really i think it's recognizing that it's going to be different right and so you know versus versus playing the part of general patent every day thinking that your authority comes from being gruff and loud and boisterous and and assertive and and we both know leaders like that in uniform and nobody likes them everybody thinks they're smart and nobody likes them right and nobody wants to suffer for them or struggle for them and they would cheer them off the beach no matter how strong they were they would cheer them off the beach yeah yeah that example i i'm I think that they, I think that it was tone, the respect that they could see that he didn't have for them.

53:08 And I think that he was also physically, I think he was holding them back. No. And they were, and, and, you know, such a competitive little group. They were like, get out of here. All right. I want to ask you a story that I wouldn't ordinarily ask somebody who, who had your job. but I'm curious about it because I think the way you're going to ask answer it is different than the way most would answer it which is what was a mission dare I say favorite mission but a mission that as a SEAL really stands out and you have you look back and you'd be like that was amazing that was wow that was quite an experience I'll carry that one with me for the rest of my life I have plenty of memories of of missions that were done or whatever but when I hear the question

53:54 you know i'm not a former pro baseball player and it's you know what was a game that was really memorable right and that's how the question sounds to me i don't remember i i guess my memories of the combat experience and the actual missions that we did are not broken up by mission does that make sense but they are broken up by mission go out do this come back succeed or fail but i look at it more as things go right things go wrong there's more of a thread okay so tell me tell me a mission that you learn something about yourself or your guys that you didn't know before okay um well um we were this would have been afghanistan and my it was a platoon sized element.

55:08 Which is how big? I had 12 guys. They're bigger now, but mine was notoriously small. Our assignment for that deployment was partnering with Afghan soldiers and enabling their operations. That was how it was termed. It wasn't a far stretch to realize that they were actually enabling our operations and actually thinking of it that way was detrimental.

55:40 You know, we really had to think of it like we're pushing them forward. This is their country. They're going to provide the security someday, right? End of story. Someday. Someday. It didn't work. Someday. And there was a series of missions that was put together. They were all kind of one long mission, but cut into series of them.

56:10 And it was supposed to be 48 hours in the field, 48 hours out of the field, relieved by another team. In fact, the helicopters that we left on, they arrived on. They went that way off the ramp and we got on. And it was just this very rapid turnover. And we were supposed to clear with 12 guys and about 45 or so Afghans, an area the size of Manhattan, in about two weeks.

56:39 And we planned for it for months in advance. And the initial plans were, you know, they asked me, well, this is what we want to do. How would you do it? And I was like, okay, first off, it's a SEAL platoon and 45 Afghan soldiers who are of varying levels of competence. And it's an area the size of Manhattan.

57:02 I don't think it's possible. But if this is what you're asking me to do, here's how I would do it. There were three friendly bases that kind of equidistant from each other along this stretch of land. And I said, I would go to the first base and live there for about two weeks and operate in the area. And then I would pack up and move to the second base and live there for a week or two and operate and then so on.

57:25 And they said, yeah, no, we're not going to do it that way. You're going to land, be in the field, and then a new team is going to relieve you. And so the way I described initially, it was what I got told to do, essentially. this early conversations were just me and and the command team who were just kind of telling me what was going to happen but eventually i have to tell the guys what's going to happen and you know you can't you can't walk in and throw your hands up and say well we've got to do this crap thing that i don't want to do and it's not the way i want to do it and blah blah blah because then they're gonna they're gonna adapt or adopt that um that mentality and it's just it's gonna go

58:06 south so you have to do the good leader thing and come in and say okay you know here's what we're going to do and this is the intent and and well okay well you know the funny thing is the guys immediately come up with the same thing they're like well why don't we just go there and stay for a little bit and like well they tried that it's this is how it's going to happen okay so we go on the first one and immediately within the first few hours our senior eod technician is an officer bomb disposal bomb disposal his name was brad um he triggered an ied that left him permanently blinded we had to evacuate him that day um and he never returned he is permanently blinded went back to walter reed and and now he's actually doing quite well he's a

58:54 paralympian he's one swimming wow brad snyder we hadn't suffered a loss I mean, we'd, we'd, we'd suffered losses and we'd had, there were sister platoons and neighboring units that had suffered losses who we knew those guys were, but within our 12 or 13 guys, we hadn't suffered a loss where a guy had to be taken from the battlefield.

59:23 And we'd been there for eight months and we had four to go. It was a year long deployment, which was unusual. Normally they're about six months. I was getting to a point as a leader that I was feeling pretty confident in myself. I was feeling like, Hey, you know, I've been at this for a while now. I know what I'm doing.

59:38 I think that we've, we've had hurdles and I've successfully navigated those hurdles. We've had highs, we've had lows. It's all but good. We were very, very tight as a group. Um, and then that happened. And to be honest, I didn't know, I didn't know how to deal with it. Um, I mean, I knew tactically what I needed to do.

1:00:00 I knew how to get them out of there. I knew, you know, what we needed to do for the rest of the day and, and continue the mission. Yeah. Um, but emotionally, you know, it hit everybody differently and, and it hit me in a way that, you know, I wasn't prepared for really, you know, you'd always thought about it.

1:00:19 Like, you know, how are you going to be if, you know, one of your guys gets hurt or killed, that's always in the back of your mind, but it's never something that you really want to address and so you have to address it and um what we learned about ourselves in that moment was a how we all reacted to it emotionally and then how it affected how we operated from that point forward we learned well i learned how i not only reacted to it individually but how i reacted to it as a leader the only real sort of trepidation i had if i had it prior to going through hell week was, I don't know how I'm going to react after four days of not sleeping.

1:01:05 I've never done that before. Nor do I want to try it to find out ahead of time, I'm just going to do it. And Thursday is going to be whatever Thursday is going to be, you know, and you just sort of find out in the moment. And so that's what that's what this was like. And what I found and what I learned about myself was that empathy was the key.

1:01:26 Empathy was the most important thing that got us through, that got us through the mission, that got us through the remaining months that we were on deployment. Understanding and having an appreciation for how everyone reacted and what everybody needed to come back from that and to still either complete the mission, perform or be successful.

1:01:50 I don't know that prior to that moment, I could have given you a good answer if you had asked me, what role does empathy play in leadership? I don't know. I could have given you a textbook answer. But I think that's when I really, really learned that. And I think for that reason, that mission sticks out in my mind.

1:02:09 Obviously, you know, Brad getting hurt was a significant event, and it sticks out in my mind for that reason, too. but the power of being an empathetic leader i think is was a lesson that all and how did the empathy show up it showed up um because you've got 11 other guys yeah so um plus the afghan contingent right and they and in that same in that same uh incident they lost two of their guys There were two commandos who were killed in the same time.

1:02:50 So how did the empathy show up? Like, was it like there, there, hand on shoulder? No. Unless that was needed. And I think that that was only really needed after the fact. And even still, you know, there wasn't a lot of hugging and crying because it wasn't needed. That in particular. Instead, what it was for us initially in the afternoon, so what happened, so that happened, we evacuated our casualties, total of four.

1:03:23 And then we patrolled to that first friendly location where I wanted to be in the first place. We patrolled there. We had to. My medic was out of, and I had one medic, so I was below men force for the mission, which I jumped up and down and screamed about prior to leaving. And they said, you're going anyways.

1:03:41 there's too much momentum behind this. And so we're on the ground with one medic, he's out of equipment, because he's used it all. So we need to resupply him. I'm below minimum force for EOD technicians. So I need to figure that out. And really, you know, we need to just kind of take a knee for a minute.

1:04:01 There's nothing time sensitive about what we're doing here. So let's just regroup and figure out what we're going to do next. So we did that. And fortunately, what was happening in the background was the enemy. Now, typically, in IED, when that would go off, the enemy was usually there to do what we called an IED ambush, which was a, you know, bomb goes off, and now they're raining bullets down on you.

1:04:29 We were early enough in the morning that I think we just surprised them. They didn't know we were there. But we were aware of their movement and we were aware of kind of where they were assembling. And it happened to be about a kilometer north of this location that we were at. And they were remaining static.

1:04:45 They were there for most of the day. And so I sensed that, you know, the group was just kind of starting to get a bit aimless. They were starting to, you know, you come off of that sort of adrenaline of the morning and you start to sort of question what the heck you're doing and why you're there and what's going on and and that's where the leader is the key you know it's not necessarily about you know given a saint christmas day speech it's about understanding where the train's going to kind of come off the rails and then just getting it back on or at least this is as simple as saying i know how you feel i feel the same way we had that conversation as opposed to rah rah you know, we got this, you got this, we're Navy SEALs.

1:05:33 No, there was none of that. That's what I'm saying. But that's also not my style. So maybe a different guy would have been that way. Fair enough. But what I did was, and I was taught, the team leader who was a Green Beret, who lived there at that camp, I had known him, I'd worked with him a few times throughout the deployment, so I knew who he was.

1:05:52 And he brought me in and he's like, hey, look at what I'm looking at. And it was about the location of the enemy personnel in the area and they had masked about 15 to i'm just trying to get specifically what the empathy looked like so when you say empathy yeah so once so we kind of came up with a quick plan about what to do next and so the empathy looked like this i knew that something needed to be done right the absolute wrong wrong thing to do would have been to sit there with our tail between our legs, playing video games and eating, you know, the Girl Scout cookies that were at this location, right?

1:06:31 So back out into the field was, was what we needed. And so I brought the guys around and I gave them all the information I knew. I, I gave them, you know, the situation throughout the day. Here's what we saw, the movement of the enemy personnel, where they're located now. And And basically just kind of, I didn't give them a plan, but I gave them an intent and an idea.

1:06:56 And I said, I think we can patrol right out the North Gate. And I think that we can patrol into an L and have these guys in our field of fire. And I think we can do that. I think we can get it done in about an hour. I think it would take an hour to do it. And they all kind of started thinking about it and looking at it.

1:07:14 And they agreed. And that was essentially the plan that we executed. and I remember right before leaving The Wire to go do this, I remember there was a moment, so I pulled out my radio, and I made a routine call to the headquarters that we were leaving The Wire, and I put my radio away, and I kind of, in that moment, I sort of looked, they were all looking at me, and I was like, oh, oh, this is the moment where I have to give a blood and gut speech, you know, and I didn't.

1:07:45 Again, it wasn't my style. I said, nearest I can remember, I said, you guys know why we're doing this. None of them said a word. They just nodded their heads. And they're like, yep, let's go. And they were every single one of them was dead set and dead serious. So where did the empathy show up? I think the empathy was an understanding what it was they needed in that moment.

1:08:05 And they needed to get back out there. And I don't know at the time if I thought I was doing the right thing or not. I mean, I must have had an instinct that this was the right thing. But I also knew that we're going back out into into a lethal environment, and the same thing could happen again. And it was years later, actually, that some guys from and it was onesie twosie, there was never like a group that got together and said, Gordo, we got to tell you something.

1:08:35 It was, it was really just one off conversations that I've had with those guys since. And in some cases, I've asked, but in other cases, they volunteered the information where they said something to the effect of, I'm really glad that we went out that day. That's what we needed to do. And, you know, at the second patrol.

1:08:59 Yeah. And, you know, I've felt reassured over the years that, you know, that the inspiration to do that came from empathy, came from understanding what it was they needed in that time. and going from there. Thanks for taking the time. It's always a joy talking to you. Of course, you as well. Thanks, man.

1:09:27 A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, David Jha, and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more and if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream maybe i can help simply go to simonsonic.com until then take care of yourself take care of each other