Bonus: Interview with SWTS

Hey there, listeners, it's Aaron, coming to you in the midst of our work on season two of Adventist Stories with something special to share. Recently, I was invited to be a guest on another podcast called Seeking What They Sought, which I imagine some of you have listened to before. If you haven't, it's been one of the most popular Adventist podcasts for years now.

It's hosted by four friends from college who are now pastors and teachers and are willing to engage in discussions on just about any topic related to Adventism. They've had guests across the entire spectrum, from those who have left the church to those who believe it's the only church, to Doug Bachelor, to Ryan Day, to former GC President Ted Wilson.

It's now in its eighth year and is approaching one million views and listens. Yesterday they posted an episode where I spoke with one of their hosts about this show, what we're doing with Adventist stories that makes it different from other shows, and why it matters. We also spoke about what it means to share stories as a faith community, both the risks and rewards.

I also talked a bit about why I believe in this project and in honest storytelling as a path forward for the Adventist Church. Turned out to be a fun conversation, and so we wanted to share it with you here. You can also find it on their podcast feed or YouTube channel. Again, that's Seeking What They Sought.

And feel free to check out more of their episodes there too. Alright, we'll start the episode now. Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy.

Hey everyone, welcome back to Seeking What They Sought. I'm excited to be back with another one-on-one interview, this time with Aaron Renneker. And uh Aaron is someone that I only got to meet. Oh man, Aaron, has it been a month at this point? Maybe at least three, four weeks. Uh Jesse introduced me to you through text.

And at first I saw the name. I'm like, I've heard this name before, but I don't know if I could put a face to it. And over the time, we we started texting back and forth about some of the things you're involved with. You you work for the Pacific Union Conference, and you um have done a lot of stuff, both pastoral and other ministry-related stuff, within the Avenist Church.

But I didn't put all the dots together until we started talking more and more. And I find out, as many of us do in the Adventist world, that it's a small Avenist world. There's a lot of connections we both have. Uh, like your your wife is connected to a family that's very close and near and dear to my heart and my church.

And uh, so that was just kind of a funny realization that I had. So, Aaron, it's good to have you on, man. I'm excited for us to talk about what you do. And and yeah, just welcome to the show. It's good to have you here.

I appreciate it, Sean. I've uh known about uh your show for a while, uh, admire it in a lot of ways, and then to connect with you has been a cool thing. So thanks for having me.

Yeah. I've really enjoyed a couple things as I've gotten to know you and what you've been involved with. First off, I've had a lot of epiphanies. I I usually pride myself in knowing a lot of random Adventist knowledge. However, there are obscure things that you know that we even through our tech start, we're like, did you know this about the Avenue?

Did you know this was an Avenist celebrity or an athlete or a music? You know, we just went down that road. And I've our our church does like a Jeopardy night at a at a mountain retreat we do every year, and one of them is almost always like Aventist, random Avenist trivia. And I always get those ones.

I pride myself in that. But um you started a podcast, and as people do around our age, and uh you started a podcast through the Pacific Union Conference. This is this is through the official church. And reminded, just tell us what is the name of that podcast?

Yeah, so the show is called Adventist Stories.

Yeah. And just for those that haven't heard about it, what is the point or what is the main theme of of Avenist Stories?

Yeah, it's it's kind of in the name, but maybe there's a little bit more, you know, than that. It's essentially a uh storytelling, narrative podcast that allows people within the Avenist community to share their stories. And I think when we hear that, we often think stories meaning testimonies, which we're not against, but that's not really what the show is about.

It's about moments and memories that Avenists have where something happened. And so um I just get to hear from a lot of different people within the Avenist community share about that moment where that thing happened. And I've found that by hearing these stories, uh it really bonds us as a community through our celebrations, through our moments of embarrassment, through our joys, our regrets, all of those things.

So it's been a lot of fun to hear these stories and to share them in in kind of a little bit of a different format than I think a lot of people are typically used to hearing podcasts.

Not just um not just that, but I want to jump off and say that specifically within the Aventist realm, the tone immediately, when I when I first started listening to the podcast, felt very different from what I usually experience within Avent Media. It felt very down-to-earth, but it also felt very professional.

It did sound like everything was produced very well. And and I say that knowing that the years that we've been doing seeking, you know, we we kind of just uh as much as I I love my producer and what we do with Eric uh, you know, with with all that we do, when I hear the way that you scripted and and weave together these stories, I I felt like I was listening almost to like an adventist Malcolm Gladwell, the way that you were going through the stories and just the way that it drew me in.

Uh really impressive. And and I'm just that that was my experiences. First off, first impression, wow, this is really well done. That's cool. Um, but that also just the like you said, the stories, they're down to earth. It's not just a polished and presented script, although it feels very intentional.

It also feels like you are just sitting down with the people that you're you're discussing things with and and weaving these stories together.

No, I appreciate that, man. Uh thank you for the for the affirmation. I think to the first point, yeah. So again, it's it's a it's a narrative style show, which I know is is maybe less typical for people to listen to uh when they engage with podcasts. Um and that's just a format that I found has been very meaningful in my life.

Um I really love audio storytelling. Like I didn't know that I did, and then I started dabbling into it. And I've just had some of my most powerful life experiences washing dishes, listening to audio stories, and just being like, wow. So I think when we created the concept for this show about what would it look like if we did Adventist audio storytelling, we thought this format could maybe let's try it, even if it's a little different.

And the quality matters, you know, and there's certainly lots of room to grow and improve for Adventist stories, but we definitely don't take the shortcuts. We try our best to earn the listeners time by making it, you know, high quality with the editing and the production. And uh man, so your affirmation means a lot.

Thank you for that. Um and then, yeah, the the the stories that we hear, the conversations. I don't know what it was like for you guys when you started seeking, but especially when you create a first season and you invite people to be on this show that really doesn't even exist yet. The people who say, Yeah, I'll do that.

I'll come on. I don't know what you're inviting me to, but I'll do it. Just so humbling, so grateful. And the people have been willing to share these really personal moments that we've just been so honored to then share with listeners too. So it's been a lot of fun.

Yeah, I I resonate with that deeply because yeah, it's very humbling, especially like starting right off the bat, you know, you're you're not that you necessarily feel like you're bugging people, but you are disrupting their flow to like, hey, can you join what I'm doing and not know a lot about it? 100%.

It's it's kind of that process where you're trying to establish something and um yeah, deep appreciation for for people that take the time to do that, right? And and and it does come across that you know, you you are very good at making people feel comfortable and you you clearly have a way of of doing that to to create a when I when I listen, it just feels like there's an atmosphere where people are ready to engage with you and go deeper and and be honest, which is a hard thing to do.

Uh when when you put yourself on public, whether it's visually or you know audibly, that's something that you can't necessarily take back, right? So it can it it tends to create a very buttoned up professional experience. And especially I'd say within the Aventist Church, and we both we both grew up, we've both been in ministry within the Avent Church at different levels.

And we probably both have stories where we we've questioned the authenticity of Aventism or sometimes the public facing, you know, leaders or influencers within Aventism, where sometimes it does feel scripted to the point where it's like, is this person even human? Right? Is this just a a at worst a propaganda piece for trying to say something about the church that you know only sounds good and polished, right?

Yep. And and that's not saying that everything was like that. You know, we've we we also were blessed by real people, people that touched our lives and and kept us in the church because of their their honest testimonies and their journeys that we heard. Um but I know that for me at least that was a that was a hard part growing up is seeing that experience and experiencing where it felt like, man, is anything real?

Is there anything authentic out there? I don't know if you relate to that or at all or totally.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's one benefit of the fact that I'm we're creating this show as an official, you know, part of an official church ministry, right? So I am a uh department director in the Pacific Union leading, you know, this this ministry called Growing Young Leaders that that I can share about.

And Adventist Stories is part of that mission of Growing Young Leaders. And I am a, you know, as as you are, uh we both work within the church system. But um, but this project is you know an official publication of the church because of that. And I think that that, you know, when I interview people for Adventist stories, you know, I'm letting them know that listen, this is an official church publication, and you can be honest.

And so we've had some stories and some conversations that have included critique of the church. And I, as the church employee in the situation, the pastor and the producer of the show, not only am OK with that, but I encourage that because that's that is okay. Uh we had an episode um episode four of Adventist Stories.

We just finished our first season. It's an eight-season episode. So the fourth episode, uh, one of the stories in that episode focuses on a group of young women in ministry who wanted to create a space for teen girls in the Adventist Church that they weren't seeing. And they wanted to do that because they all bonded on how their experience as teen girls in the Adventist Church was not very good.

And yet it's, you know, they still became leaders in the church as pastors and teachers, but they were very honest about how what they had created was born out of a void that they felt within the church. And I believe it made for a beautiful story, uh an honest story, and one that needed to be heard and one that uh absolutely the church should be honest about.

Um we also when I was a youth director, a conference youth director, we created a different podcast a few years ago in 2024 called Dear Church. And that one was similarly a narrative style, and it was Adventist young adults specifically. We would hear their story, their experience in the church, and then it would every episode would end where once you've now heard their life story, they would read a letter they had written to the Adventist church.

And Sean, these letters were very honest, very real, very beautiful, sharing about how the church has both helped them and hurt them, um, let them down, but maybe healed them as well. And they were fully honest, and I had the full support of my administration to share these stories, share these voices of young adults.

And we actually, in Adventist Stories, one of our episodes this season included one of those stories from Dear Church about a young woman who experienced something, a horrible accident that altered her life forever. Um, but it included a letter where she said, you know, in a lot of ways the church has, you know, let me down.

I'm paraphrasing. Uh, but then when the worst moment of my life happened, it was the community of the church who was around me and how I experienced God. So I think that honesty and that authenticity is is essential to church media.

Yeah, man. Oh, there's so much there. It for so many people that have been hurt by the church, it is a nuanced story where where they don't know what to do with it. And maybe even those of us that have experienced not maybe not always to that dramatic of a degree, but have have gone through painful moments within this church.

We go through that that back and forth of, you know, is this too much? Is this, you know, enough that I walk away or I deeply question my faith. And I think what what I see a common thread between um your your two podcasts together is I see that the the intent is not to ex like do an expose, it's not to, you know, uh throw mud at people.

It's it's a genuine desire to explain a story the way that it was experienced. And that's something that people sometimes even institutions, and the Evinist Church is not um you know perfect in this regard either, is a lot of times sharing that mess is messy story is the necessary way to heal and progress instead of just like, well, you know, go into apologetic mode, like, well, if you look at the full picture, you can see that they're you know, it's like, but we're human.

We experience trauma and pain and we perceive things in a specific way. And unless we speak to that level of the story, then you know, what are we even doing? What are we accomplishing? If because that's how that's it, it's how we live it out. And if it's not if we don't tell the story how it was actually lived out, it's not going to be relatable.

Yeah, yeah. We I think a system or an organization can sometimes think that people will only b want to belong to your system if they are convinced that it's a perfect system. And I think it's what people want more than anything for their communities that they belong to, their organizations, is authenticity, that they can trust in the genuineness of that organization, of the people who are leading it.

And the only way to do that is to be honest about your faults, flaws, and shortcomings as well. And so uh we know that Gen Zers and millennials crave authenticity and are very reluctant to put trust in institutions and likely for good reason. And religious institutions are maybe at the top of the list.

So why wouldn't we be honest? Why wouldn't we give space for people to share their stories? And like I tell some of my guests, you can say anything you want. If anybody would get in trouble here, it'd be me, the employee of the church. You are safe. And uh again, I've had the support of my leadership who are administrators in the church.

And so maybe um we are far from perfect uh in our transparency as an organization, but maybe we're uh a little further along than than sometimes we imagine.

I think that's what people also look for, is not again, even on the institution side, because you are part of it, and so am I as an employee of the church. They're not looking for that perfection on the other end as well. They're looking for progress or they're looking for intentionality, like you're moving in the right direction.

And I think that's that's what people see. That's what that's what people are starting to see. And I I've noticed it in what we've done with seeking, and this is not to elevate us. The the thing that has allowed us to go now for eight plus years is that the four of us are genuinely friends. Like we grew up in college together, and so the stories we told and the discussions we have were what we would normally just have on the phone, anyways.

Like we didn't, we didn't really sugarcoat it. If if anything, we maybe were a bit more hesitant at the start because all of us had been burned by stories, both firsthand and secondhand, of those that that um that shared too much, at least in the realm of what was seen as too much, to be an employee of the church.

And so there were certain topics that's like, eh, don't go into that topic. Don't talk about that issue, uh, don't share that opinion because you might you might get in trouble. And by God's grace, we've been able to progress to where at this point for all of us, we're not fearful of that, not because we're arrogant and feel like we can't be, you know, we're invincible, but but we've realized that um that that narrative is changing even within our church.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's the good news. That what encourages me, Aaron, is is I've wanted to see that for our church in an institutional setting for so long. Seeking is a independent, you know, entity, although most of us are employed by the church. We're running this independent, and many people have messaged us.

Uh, both people that we've had on as guests on the show, but also people that listen that that thank us for that voice and an authentic space and said, I could never do this in my like we've had pastors, we've had teachers, administrators at high levels tell us like we couldn't have this conversation.

Thank you for having it.

Yes.

And that both encouraged me, but it discouraged me as well that we we couldn't um we couldn't move past that for what felt like a while. But what encourages me in what you're doing is you're doing it as this is part of your job, right? You're the you're the director, um, not just of this podcast, but for growing young leaders and all just the things that you're a part of.

And the what I get from you is that you're not, you know, living in this um, you know, glass castle where it's like, if I take one wrong step, you know, my my job is toast, I'm in big trouble. And and again, for you, it's not like you're you're under a rock just assuming, you know, super arrogant, like you can do whatever you want.

But it seems like you you've found a healthy balance of like, hey, I'm here to to love the church as a leader in it, but I can also critique, I can also be honest and have people on that are honest too.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I know that you aren't looking for this, but I will say that one thing I just really appreciate about seeking is because you've created a space and a channel where young Avenists feel like there is some honest conversation going on. What you guys have done is nothing short of phenomenal.

And that took courage for you guys to do. It still takes courage for you to do it, and it was so needed. I mean, look at the response to your show. It's been so needed. And I want to thank you guys for that. Um, we actually, in that first podcast I mentioned, Dear Church, which was a limited 10-part series.

But one young adult who shared their story was one of your hosts, Anthony. Shout out to our good friend Anthony. And um, he shared some of his story very honestly, very authentically, and shared his letter to the church as a pastor in the church. And um, that show I will say, Dear Church, was a little bit more, you know, we tried to share a diversity of stories of Adventist young adults that did touch on different topics and some of the maybe more tenuous topics or taboo things we talk about in the church that was very needed.

Um Adventist Stories is a little bit different in that um what we're really doing is focusing on the Adventist Church is a community that is built upon moments and memories of people. And while that may touch on some sensitive things and people can be honest about their church experience, it's much less about that and much more about what has been your experience in the community and shared within one specific moment.

Yeah. And some of them are very lighthearted stories. Um, some of them are maybe more heartfelt. Um but in the second episode, I share a story of kind of me coming into the church. I was not born into an Adventist family. My family's not Seventh-day Adventist. I was sent to an academy against my will as a middle schooler and was just welcomed in in such an unexpected way as a very insecure, scared 12-year-old, which who isn't when they're in seventh grade, right?

Um and I had this teacher at the academy, this man named Mr. R, who was just like any, unlike any person that I had met in the way that he welcomed me in. And he did this one thing where the night before my first day at the new scary Christian school, he gave me a call on our home phone. Uh remember when those exist.

Yeah.

Back in the day.

Back in the 1900s. I think you can find a home phone now in a museum somewhere if you look real hard. But a brick. He gave uh he gave a a call and he asked for Aaron and he introduced himself and he told me where my classes would be, how to find them, and that he was available to welcome me into the school.

And I cannot tell you what a difference that made. And so I tell the story of coming into the s the the church through the school, the academy, Mr. R. And then 20 years later, I was trying to track him down, which doesn't sound like it'd be hard, but this man somehow has zero internet footprint. Like I looked on Facebook, I looked on Google, he did not exist.

So I was calling around trying to find him just to tell him thank you and also like, why did you call me that night? Like, how did you know I needed that? Um so we try because for me, the Adventist church was not about, oh, these beautiful fundamental beliefs and doctrines, I want to follow that. No, it was about a community that made me feel loved.

And I think that's why a lot of us are here. It's not because we have evaluated every pe priest and pastor of every denomination and decided this is the one for us. Maybe that is for some people, but I think most of us were loved into a community. And that's what Adventism is for so many of us. So why don't we each share little moments and memories that that community has represented for us?

And it's just been a joy so far.

Yeah. Listening through listening through the podcast, I found so that story was really heartwarm. As a teacher, right? I'm a junior high teacher. So when you say seventh grade is rough, like we we sometimes joke on my junior high team at San Girl Academy, where I'm at, it's a daily catastrophe. Like, you know, and and we say in a very lovingly, ch tongue-in-cheek way like uh I wouldn't be You know, going into my 12th year of teaching, if I if I was just phoning it in, like you, you know, and like if if any of you out there are avanus educators, it's not something that you can phone in and and not let it just suck the life out of you if you're not in it.

Like you've got to be in it if you're gonna keep going. It will burn you out fast if you are not wanting to be here.

Um I bet you've got some Avenus stories, Sean. I guarantee you have some.

Well, listen, I loved hearing so a couple ones, the embarrassing stories, the adventist most embarrassing story. Loved that episode, loved going through those. Um, really loved any highlights of um your mother-in-law and just any stories, Mr. R. I loved hearing those stories. I thought he was hilarious at the end, just hearing him on the phone or the way you described the conversation.

He just seemed very nonchalant, just very straight to the point, like, okay, yeah, no big deal, like whatever. And it was just it his character came out very quickly in that, like in a very positive way. I just loved it because I can relate to in my academy years, my school year, just people that were similar, people that weren't trying to chase clout, they weren't trying to overthink that they just were there for you.

And and you can just look back and smile and say, man, that was beautiful. And I I probably wouldn't have experienced that if I wasn't in an Avenist school or academy. And um, so the faults that there may be with our system, you you highlight the beauty uh that's there. And sometimes it's hidden for many people who either forget or they never experienced it.

And so you're telling those stories to help people realize there's so much beauty uh that can be found in those moments, so much gospel life that's being experienced. Um yeah, just love the education stories. As a teacher, I'm just gonna admit there's sometimes that teachers feel a little bit uh under the radar when it comes to our church.

You know, whether it's just the financial struggles a lot of our institutions face, or uh, you know, there's there's a lot of history with with Avenus teachers and pastors and connections with churches and the challenge, you know, the big level challenges we have with how to function together. Yes. Right?

How do how do we support churches and schools? How can they work together? Right. These are all uh challenging questions. And I know sometimes teachers feel like they're they're in the background. Um, and you highlighting those stories is beautiful to me that people are seeing those education stories.

Absolutely. Yeah. We we do have a lot of those because, you know, as an Adventist church, what do we do? We do church and we do school, right? And so a lot of our stories, not all of them, but a lot of them take place within the, you know, those contexts of ministry and education. And it's like the messiness of the system doesn't go away.

But maybe we were reminded that when we actually go into the classroom, we see the heart of what this really is all about. Or when we go into the sanctuary or we go into the hospital with the nurses who are doing so many amazing things. Uh, one of my favorite stories from the season is this young woman who's a kindergarten and first grade teacher in Hawaii.

And she had this moment where she was setting up for her classroom. It's like pre-week, and she's putting a clock up on her wall and she's recording because she makes content, classroom content on her TikTok, but she says she has like 10 followers. Well, as she's putting up that clock, she missteps as she comes down and she falls, clock shatters, cuts her head, and she has it all on video.

And she has like the most chill reaction to like like she says ow, but it's like super like if that happened to me, I'd be like, What, you know, like maybe screaming or freaking out. But she's just kind of like ow.

Once you see the video, yeah, like once this is the one area, because I'm a big advocate for audio, but this is the one area where it's like you have to see the video with it because she falls hard. And she gets medical help. And then, like you teachers do, because you guys are psycho in the best way.

After one hour of holding an ice bag to her bloody head, she's like, I gotta go back to my classroom. I want to finish what I was doing to set up for I'm like, take the day off, girl. But she goes back and she uploads the video to her 10 followers of her following uh falling and it goes viral. Millions of views.

And at first, she's just kind of she talks about it in the story. She's like, Oh my goodness, like what do I do? I'm getting millions of views, but I'm also getting hundreds and hundreds of comments, and a lot of them are not kind. And so all of a sudden, in just one moment, it feels like the entire internet is looking at her, and many of them are pointing and laughing at her, um, saying rude things like, I would not trust you with my children and these kinds of things.

But why I love the story is because she then talks about when all of these people are coming at her who she doesn't know and they don't know her. That's when her community started to defend her in the comments, in the text messages, reminding her that she is a great teacher, you know, that we all stumble and fall.

And then on top of that, people started sending gifts to her through her teacher Amazon wish list. And she said for the whole school year she was receiving packages at her door, a lot of them from strangers who saw her video, and others from people who just know her in the Avenous community, showing their support to her through that.

So that just to me captured the full scope of what an Avenous moment in an Avenist story can be.

Yeah, it was it was great hearing that that one too. And I I want to go back really quick to even another appreciation I had about the listening through the the different Avenus stories through the episodes was how they would resolve at the end. Like you you would kind of leave some tension sometimes.

I remember you were calling the girl that you were embarrassed, your embarrassing story, right? The one that you pushed down.

Yes.

Uh at the in your school field and you know, getting a hold of her at the end and everything like that. Like you you created some good tension and seeing what would happen at the end. So I loved kind of being pulled along with that story. Again, very Malcolm Gladwell style that I remember at least, you know, as I listened to.

We all love hearing a good story, you know. And uh Ira Glass has that famous saying where he says, a good story is you know bait plus narrative. And I think that's you know what what we're going for. It's all it's true. We're not fictionalizing anything, of course, but we try to package it where it's enjoyable because my hope is that if somebody turns on Adventist stories, they just know they're you know, it's like grabbing a warm mug, sitting by the fireplace, and let me hear some good stories.

And you know, obviously not every story works for every person, but hopefully some of them connect well. And that's the embarrassing, you're referencing an episode we call Adventist Embarrassment, which is like five short stories of just really embarrassing moments. And uh one of them includes maybe my most embarrassing moment in middle school again.

Always in middle school. Always in middle school, Sean, right? Always in middle school. And trying to reach out to a girl that I made a really embarrassing mistake with, and uh, she was gracious. And uh, anyways, uh hopefully we all can relate to those embarrassing moments.

I think everyone that went through grades six through eight can have a story they may never want to air on the pub on the public uh airs like you have. Uh but I'm appreciative that you did. And I'm I'm glad that you've told these stories and you've you've found people. And I think the big thing here is, you know, the best, whether it's a podcast or any media entity, when we're able to highlight just not one person, it's not personality driven.

Uh obviously you do an amazing job with it, but but it's being able to step out of the way and just let the stories speak for themselves, um, letting letting the topic or the theme speak for itself, and and from that people can gain the value from it. And I think that's where our church should move towards and and let shine more uh is to create more opportunities for that kind of thing to happen.

Yeah.

And so I'm I'm curious on your end, you know, you've you've done something through the Pacific Union Conference that is awesome. You've you you not only are the director for for growing young leaders, and I'm I'm just so happy. Just I'm a little biased too, because my my school that I work at, I've actually seen some that were recipients of those scholarships.

And for those that are listening, I don't remember if you said it earlier, Aaron, but those go to either pastors or future pastors or future educators that want to go to one of our avenues institutions and get a scholarship so that it it supports them to follow through with that dream. Yep. And number one, the the moment I realized what you did with that, I was like, where has this been?

Why, why did it take so long for us to realize when we see the the shortages? We have teacher shortages and pastor shortages. And I hear this, I'm like, this is the kind of stuff we need to be doing more. Let's let's do more of this.

And also, where was this when we were in school, Sean? Because our two or bills would have been a lot lower.

I know. I was very now, I'll admit I was very lucky because my parents were employees of the church. So I got this thing called subsidy. Yes. Um, and and I'm thankful for that. But again, for for many that aren't, you know, don't have families that are employees of the church, you know, it's tough. Like our institutions are expensive.

It is an investment, as we we try to put it. And um that is a challenge. It's it's hard because on both ends, I know it's a challenge for the church to figure out how we can uh allocate money to support as avanced education more for those that want to attend it, but also knowing, you know, there's challenges with making sure our budget's balance.

You know, I I've been, you know, invited to do administrative work before, like to like people have either interviewed me or offered me like a VP role or something. And it's like, I see after over a decade in education what my administrators do, and I'm like, I my hat is off to you, especially small avenues schools where they have teaching a teaching principal.

Yes.

I mean, if you want to tell a story, I I can tell you a dozen teaching principals I know. And boy, you want an avenue story, my goodness. Um, they do so much. Yes, you know, it's nonstop work to be a teaching principal of a small avenues school. And the majority of our avenues schools, at least in North America, I think around 60 or so percent, I know we put out a stat somewhere, are small, like two-room schoolhouses.

That's the majority of our avenueist schools. And so a lot of our teachers are are living, you know, that that kind of experience. And it's it's a lot. Um but you know, again, I I'm so appreciative of what you're doing through that that ministry. And I'm I'm I'm proud to see that the you know, the Pacific Union Conference is is supporting that type of stuff to happen.

It's it's been incredible. You know, I think that this is kind of touching on our earlier conversation, where this is something we can be proud of as a church, that at least, you know, in this West Coast area, we are trying something a bit innovative and new through growing young leaders. And I can say that because I did not create it.

I was invited to start leading the program. But this was a group of avenus administrators who saw a need, um, saw the importance of supporting the next generation of leadership within the church and put dollars behind it to help make it happen. So we, as you mentioned, Growing Young Leaders provides scholarships and mentorship and career placement assistance to future teachers and pastors.

And it's a nice, healthy scholarship too for students who attend school in our union, which would be at either Pacific Union College or La Sierra University. And it's been so fun, Sean, to get to know and support the students on our scholarship. We have over 50 scholars in the Growing Young Leaders program studying education and theology, and they're incredible.

Like we have every reason to be optimistic about the future of the church because these are the men and women who are going to be leading it. So it's been a really fun thing and something I'm proud to be a part of.

That's one of the things that we've seen as a shift too from our team. Like I think we definitely and and look, our team is still cynical. We're we're avant, most of us, we grew up Adventists, we know how to poke the bear, right? Like it's our family. So we know how to poke the bear to be cynical about our church, our tribe.

Uh, but I would say over the years that has softened to where we we understand, like we're humans, we're a human institution ultimately, like that that that we still though believe has been spirit-led and there's something so beautiful happening. And we've seen a shift. Like since we started to where we are now the last few years, all of us on our team have seen a shift where there does seem to be a change happening within our church that is leading to what you're describing at even an institutional level, where we see money being put and and policies being put in place to to encourage, you know, uh ministry.

And and that's that's encouraging to see. For those that maybe this is putting you on the spot, Aaron, I don't know, with when people you mentioned on the West Coast, uh, where we are geographically, we're both in Southern California. Um we've had multiple times people share with us when we share our experience both here on the podcast, where we can speak plainly and openly um and and look to create innovative ideas at for growing our church.

People have have commented, commented to us both directly and and you know, through email or otherwise, you know, oh, but you guys are on the West Coast, like you're you're living in a a fairy tale um minority of Aventism, a small slice that doesn't properly uh paint the bigger picture of you know, either national or global Aventism.

And that, you know, I couldn't do that. I couldn't uh what would you say to those people that might feel a little cynical or or question if what you're participating in right now, both through your podcast and uh through you being the director of this ministry, what would you say to those people that might be like, well, that's nice for you guys over there on the West Coast, but we're we're over here and it it doesn't work like that in Adventism.

I think that's that's fair. I I if that is the experience, um my heart goes out to those who don't feel the the freedom that we do. Not to say that we don't have our issues over here on the West Coast as a church, we do, but um my my first reaction is compassion.

Yeah.

And then my second reaction is so what can you do about it? And um it takes courage anytime somebody is willing to step out a bit and challenge and have the conversations that they're not sure if they're allowed to have. And unfortunately things in a church structure move slowly and oftentimes for good reason.

I think healthy change goes at a healthy pace. There's this saying that Fuller Youth Institute, which is not an avonist organization, but we've partnered with them quite a bit, what they'll use in their Growing Young series talking about how to help the church be more uh affable to younger generations.

They use this phrase a lot, which is you need to fail people's expectations at a rate at which they can withstand it, which is a real balance and easier said than done. Yeah. You have to fail people's expectations. You have to push beyond the boundaries, but you have to do it at a rate that they can withstand.

Otherwise, if you move out too far ahead of them, what do they say? They might mistake you for the enemy. So, how do you walk alongside at a pace that says, I'm just wondering. Let's take that one step forward, let's have that conversation, let's engage. If it feels too far too fast, we'll make it a half step.

But we need to be moving. Jesus in John chapter three compared God's spirit to wind. And and wind does not stand still. If it does, it's it's not wind. No, God's spirit has to be on the move as much as we may try to keep it still and put it in a box and put it on our mantle and say, Don't move. That's just not how God's spirit works.

God's spirit is on the move. The church will always change. The question is, how will it change? Yeah. And it takes people who are courageous enough to push, but at a rate at which the cute broader community can withstand. And I think that's what's beautiful about Adventism is we c we are a diverse eclectic community with people who are extremely orthodox and people who are extremely progressive, all trying to coexist.

If we want to continue to coexist, then we're all gonna have to compromise a bit. And um, that isn't to say that compromise means, well, I guess it's just gonna have to stay as it is. No, we all need to move in a direction, but we have to try to do so together. And it's hard and it's difficult. So thank you to anybody out there who has challenged and has tried to move things.

And I'm sorry when that's been rebuffed. But don't give up. Keep moving forward. And please remember those who are resisting are still your brothers and sisters as well.

Yeah. So when people say, you know, you responded with what are you going to do about it? I I know that I've I've had that call too. Like we had a mentor at Walla Walla. So me, Jesse, Anthony, and Eric, we all went to Walla Walla. And there are times that we'd be cynical. Um, and our chaplain at the time, Patty McCoy, he's now Crosswalk Portland, um pastor at Crosswalk Portland, but he was our mentor and chaplain at Walla Walla at the time.

And he kind of just looked at us and he had a close relationship with all of us as we worked in campus ministries, and he basically asked the same question when we had critiques. He'd be like, So what are you gonna do? Like, what are you gonna do about it? You know? And and to his credit, as the leader, the you know, the the campus chaplain, when we had ideas, he he supported us.

So if we were gonna step out and do something, like we we all got together, me, Jesse, uh, Anthony and Eric, and we created Circle Church, which is the student-led church on Wawa University's campus. And we we started that, and it was scary, and we had doubts and and didn't know, and it it took a lot of time and energy.

Um, but but Patty supported us in doing that and and others did as well. And so that that taught us that's okay to do. We can we can innovate, we can try things, we can even fail and and mess up, and that's what we're called to do. And that's that's ultimately the kind of way that that nurtured us, nurtured us in in college, then that that became a natural flow for when we then went into our ministries and our careers, where something like seeking would not exist if we didn't we weren't nurtured um in those spaces to do something like that.

Um I want to share a quick story. Uh when I was a conference youth director, we would have annual meetings at the NAD office. And you know, these meetings, there's something like, is it 58 conferences in North America or something? So it's there's a lot, there's a lot of youth directors there and young adult directors and children's ministry directors.

And so you're in a room with a bunch of people, you're sitting at, you know, eight people around a round table, and there's, you know, a dozen round tables or whatever. And um the NED youth director said, uh, is there any other topic that we haven't discussed related to youth ministry that anybody here would like us to include on the agenda?

And for some reason, I felt like I was safe enough in that moment and I was not pushing boundaries just to push boundaries, but I just kind of raised my hand. You know, heck, I'm the guy from Southern California. You know, our conference president was a woman at the time, so they're they're gonna probably consider me a rebel anyway.

But I just said I would love for us to discuss how we can better support the queer people in our communities.

Yeah.

Um and it kind of got quiet. And I was thinking, oh, did I did I push too too hard a little too soon? You know, and I I wasn't offering a solution to that, but I was saying, let's talk about this. How can we how can we do better? And I remember at my same round table, a guy like sitting three seats away from me, he just kind of goes like I should say he was from I believe the Caribbean, might have been Jamaica, I want to say.

And he just goes, Man, we're still talking about jewelry. There ain't no way we're ready to talk about that. And his his his response was just said, you know, was such a heartfelt place, you know. Sure. And it was a good reminder for me, which was Aaron, it's good that you are bringing about the things we need to be talking about as church leaders, but make sure you're doing so in a spirit that respects the experience of your colleague, friend, and brother who says, Hey, we're in a totally different place right now.

So maybe that conversation applies here. Maybe we're not ready for it here. So let's push, but let's do so at a rate that we can push forward together. Um I don't I'm not saying it was wrong for me to bring that up, but it was just a reminder that my experience is not universal, my context is not universal.

And if we want to continue to coexist, then we're gonna have to figure out how to do that.

Yeah, we have to. It's our the diversity is both our greatest asset, but also the biggest challenge. Yep, you know, at the same time. Um, but it's worth having that challenge. You know, when I when I see other places, institutions that are stagnant and and don't have that tension, um, it usually doesn't involve a healthy dynamic, right?

Like a lot of times the messiness and tension is the sign of beautiful innovation and creativity and progress. Um, you see this in political levels and historical levels in in religious institutions. Um, our very grassroots starting of the Avenist Church was incredibly messy and full of diverse thought.

And it wouldn't have become what it is today without that messy process and people differing and having disagreements, sometimes very heated. Uh yeah.

And and and has that, Sean, been your experience with the podcast, I imagine, because you guys bring on a variety of guests across the full spectrum. Even the four or five of you have different experiences and perspectives. Would you say that that's been a big takeaway for you guys on the show is the beauty that lies within the wild diversity?

Yeah, it's it the the only conclusion we've been able to come to that we exist as a denomination is that something spiritual, but the spirit had to have done something. You know, like like for us to have made it out of the 19th century at a start and then see all the challenges our church has gone through and and to where we are today, at the very heart of it, the spirit has moved in such a profound way that we're When we look at what we believe now as Aventists, like all of us, like there were times that, and I can speak very openly about this because they talk about it this way.

Both Anthony and Jesse were even during the process of being pastors and us doing the podcast, were, you know, part of their foot was out the door of Adventism, thinking, like, do I have a space here? They're questioning that. And through the conversations we've had, through the the things we've discovered, um, it's made us realize like this is this is the place to be.

This is the place to see the spirit working. Um and and this is we have a home here. And that was something that uh maybe me less, but the I know Jesse and Anthony would say definitely they they had that question, like, do they really have a home here? And what we've realized is we we we did the series What is an Adventist, and we found out uh there's a lot that goes into that question.

And and what I do know is that we are we're Adventists, and we're we're proud and thankful to be Adventist.

Right.

Um, and it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That was a really good series that you guys had on that one. And um I would say that if what makes somebody Adventist is perfect adherence to each of the 28 fundamental beliefs, you know, we've got a really, really small church. Um, but if what makes somebody an Adventist is the decision to be, you know, part of this community, flaws and all, um because this is home.

Yeah.

Uh then what a beautiful church we have. And I would also say, and I imagine, you know, you would agree with this, because you work with young people. I I've worked with young people, you know, my ministry career. There are some people who make the decision, I I need a break. You know, I've been hurt by the community, something's happened, I need to step away.

And uh obviously I let them know, like, you do what you need to do, but but please know that some of us are here and we care about you and we love you. And when you come back through that door, we're gonna greet you with open arms. And even when before you do, we're gonna be checking in because you're you're you're part of the family.

And um and and so everybody, you know, we I don't ever want to minimize somebody's experience who has stepped away from the church because sometimes that was the most courageous thing they could have done. And I hope that that decision was met with grace and love from those both within and and beyond the community.

Yeah, it's a good point. We shifting our our rhetoric to one of, you know, more inclusivity and saying, you you're welcome at the table. And if you choose to step out, I've heard stories from even close friends where they told me why they left, and I said, I get it. Like from from from what you've experienced, you've made a courageous step, and I see that you're in a healthier spot now.

Right. And and I I don't say this about about everyone. I I will say, like, we we interviewed Ryan Day, and he worked for 3AB and there was a big, a lot of media around him leaving. And I don't, I don't know him well personally. All I can speak for is when we had a discussion with him. I know, you know, whatever people, his their stance on him and and how he's against certain doctrines of the church, that's a whole separate issue.

But I told him when we had a discussion with him that from what I was hearing from him then, it felt more authentic and real. And that's the version I wanted to hear of him, where we could grow and pray together and and and move forward in good faith. And and that's what I want. I don't want people to just stay within the church, and you don't want people to stay within the church that are just doing it while gritting their teeth.

Um, there's there's a messy process to growing closer to to Jesus. Um and so, yeah, wow, we could we could spend a whole episode just on that that topic. Um, but I appreciate you just bringing bringing some of these things up because like I said earlier, we we want to create spaces where people feel at home.

Like Aventism, we want Adventism to be home. Yeah. And and that's that's a beautiful, you know, thing to to strive for.

Yeah, yeah. I I think about so my wife, uh third generation Adventist, I believe, um, raised in the church, it's all she's known. Myself, only Adventist, you know, in my family, uh, sent to the community as a teenager, vastly different upbringings, vastly different experiences with the church, both having plenty of questions, but also realizing that at the end of the day, this is home.

And I am so grateful to the Adventist community for providing that home. And I think what I just want so badly as a pastor, um, as you know, an employee, as a member of the community is just that everybody could experience the home that I've felt. And I know that won't be the case, but what if we could work hard to help people experience quirks and all?

You know, we have so many weird things about us, and that's something you and I were laughing about. Just the quirkiness of the Adventist community and system. Yep. Um, but wouldn't it be good if just everybody who wants to can experience home here? And isn't that what you know we we imagine Christ would want for us people to experience the love, warmth, and connection of Jesus through the Adventist community if they're, you know, if they find themselves in that place.

And I know that's what I want. And I think as a middle school teacher, oh my goodness, Sean, what you do to scared middle school students who step foot into your classroom, because I remember when I was one of them, and you make them feel seen and welcome. And you don't do that by checking their belief system.

You say, hey, because you're in my classroom, I'm gonna take care of you as your teacher. What could be more Christ-like than that?

Yeah. It's it's a privilege. Like I I I get done and and at the end of the year, every teacher's tired, uh, but I look back on it and and what a privilege to be in a spot, you know, where you get to see and just participate in that, you know, and and see students from all backgrounds just hopefully, you know, find a home, find, find a safe space where where some of them sadly don't have that, you know.

Or or or to reinforce good things. There are good stories, of course, good um families that they come from and and they get to see more of that when they come to school. Um yeah, I I'm I'm so thankful we could we could do this, Aaron. I want to I want to kind of close with a couple pieces, just again, in response to those that might hear the stories you're talking about and see what you're doing through the Pacific Union.

How can people connect with what you're doing? You know, they can listen to the podcast and we want to encourage them to go listen to those stories. It was it was beautiful for me to go through those. After they've either heard those or see what you're doing, how can they connect to that if they're interested in in participating or being involved in those type of ministries?

Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the best platform for that is Instagram. So we have uh an Instagram page for the show, Adventist Stories, which that's the handle at Adventist Stories. We post, even though it's an audio-only show at this point, um, and that's because of that narrative style. Uh, we do have an Instagram page that uh shares content related to the episodes and uh photos and and reels and stuff like that.

So that's a great way to familiarize themselves and they can DM us at that Instagram and we'll see it. They're welcome to share any feedback they have, obviously sharing the show uh and things like that. And then Growing Young Leaders also has an Instagram as well at Growing Young Leaders, which I tell people is not a page only for teenagers considering ministry or education for a career.

Certainly that's a great place for them to take a look at what our program offers and how it can make college a lot more affordable. But it's actually just a great channel to see some cool things happening in the Avenist Church with our young people. You know, through the work of the Growing Young Leaders, I get to visit our campuses, school, church, college, all across our union.

And we try to share a lot of content of some of the awesome things that are happening there in our on our campuses with our young people, with our pastors, with our teachers. And so Growing Young Leaders is a great way to see what's going on. And then again, you can contact us there, you can DM us uh directly.

We will see that about uh some of these opportunities that are available for young people to find their calling, their purpose, their fulfillment in the fields of teaching, in the fields of ministry, and reminding them that, you know, they are the leaders of the church. So, so you take it, you you go lead and and help the church look more like what your generation needs right now.

So uh Instagram is a great platform for that. We are on TikTok uh at Growing Young Leaders as well. Um, and I I am more than happy to have a conversation with anybody uh that I can be supportive of in this role.

Yeah. Aaron, one of the themes that we've been moving forward into the future on uh seeking is kind of this theme called tell a better story. It's like we we look at the Aventist role and we're like, we we just want to tell a better story. There's many areas where we we haven't always highlighted the beautiful, the good.

Yeah. Uh that sometimes it's easy, especially this this happens outside Aventism too. Like we the clickbait article is always on controversy. The news story is the negative, right? Um, and and the thing is, well, how do we tell and and better story doesn't mean just polished up and happy, like you said, like the what you're doing, I guess my point is what you're doing through Adventist stories is you are telling the better story, which isn't just all, you know, perfect stories, but the real story and the heartfelt, you know, loving story.

And that is what what really inspired me to have this conversation with you is like that's that's the theme that we're moving forward with, is we want to tell that better story. We want to listen to others that are creating content and doing things in ministry that are telling and highlighting that better story of Aventism.

So thank you for doing that. It's been awesome to have you on and just share a little slice of what you're doing. And again, I want to encourage everyone go and listen uh to Avent Stories, iTunes, Spotify. Um, go check out their Instagram page like like Aaron just talked about. Um, and just yeah, get connected.

Aaron, it's been a pleasure talking with you, just hearing more of your story and what you do.

Well, Sean, I really appreciate it. The work you guys do with Seeking is very needed and helpful. I hope that you keep pushing uh the boundaries, push the church to to be a better version of itself. And thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

Appreciate it, Aaron. Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening. Again, we just want to say at the end of the episode, thank you so much to our patrons for supporting us. We'll have a little spot on the side where we appreciate them. If you're willing to uh give back to us, we'd love to have your support so that we can continue to keep growing this ministry.

And uh whether or not you do that, we just appreciate you listening. So thank you so much for all of you who've listened, and we'll see you next time on Seeking What They Sought.

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