Scob The Empire with Adam Lance Garcia ("Daughter of Ferrix" Part 2)

0:00 This podcast is brought to you by our partisans, Shelby Von Trapp and Bobby Chudhury. If you want to find out how to join up with Saw's Rebels, or if you want access to our bonus episodes, head over to patreon .com slash andorkspod. Welcome to Andorx, the podcast where every week we'll analyze and scrutinize the Star Wars series Andorx seven minutes at a time. I'm Rustin Hunter -Deust.

0:38 I'm Alex Walenetz. We have friends everywhere, and today we're joined by our friend, Star Wars author Adam Lance Garcia. What a credit. What a credit. That never gets old. Thank you so much for having me, guys. We're so honored to have you here, Adam. We would love to hear, you know, what is your history with Star Wars? How did you come to find the show Andor? And how did you come to become a Star Wars author? Those are a lot of questions. So with Star Wars, I think with so many folks, you know, I'm 43, so of my generation, it was kind of like ever present.

1:14 You know, I don't remember. When I first saw it, I think my first time I saw it was Return of the Jedi on VHS. And as I've said elsewhere, like I've always felt like a kindred connection to Return of the Jedi because it came at the same year I was born. So I'm like, well, it has to be some reason that I'm connected to Star Wars. But I just was introduced by my dad and I watched it and read it, like watched it over and over again. i still remember vividly getting the vhs of like the like widescreen edition collection like from Suncoast Video. So like, I was just an obsessive - Well, I have not thought about Suncoast Video in a decade. Yeah. So like, it was sort of ever -present. I was just a fan from

1:57 very, very early on. And then in the early 90s, the Star Wars Expanded Universe started coming out. Originally, I started with the Jedi Prince series, which is, you know, The Glove of Darth Vader, you know, Zorba, The Hutt's Revenge, The Lost City of the Jedi, The Prophets of the Dark Side, not necessarily in that order. But that was like kind of my - gateway drug to reading and just Star Wars prose in general. And then my cousin Glenn got me into, he's like, hey man, if you like this, you should read Heir to the Empire. And then I spent the best part of my life collecting every single novel. I've read most of the Legends books. I own all of them, except for a few outstanding here and there.

2:40 But I am obsessed with Star Wars prose. I've always been. And when we first moved into this house where I'm recording from, I went to my parents' house with my partner. And I'm like, look, I got to go get my Star Wars books because we were living in a small one bedroom for the longest time. So I just didn't have room for these books. Do they know they existed? She knew they existed. So we go to my parents' house.

3:08 This is a bunch of boxes. She's like, I don't think you need this many. I'm like, yeah, I do. And then I open up like one. like one closet with like a bookshelf in there. She's like, see, you don't need that many. And then I opened up a cabinet and then opened up the cabinet and then opened up like, and then in those cabinets, it was like multi -layered. And she looked at me and she was just like, do you need all of these? And I was like, yes. She's like, I don't, I'm not telling you to get rid of them. I read of them. I'm not saying anything. This is your stuff, your life, but like in a year, like to sit back and really think about like whether you're not, you need all of these books. And now when she, like we give people tours of the

3:47 house, she goes into my office and she's like, and this is Adam's research. So I, I'm very, very, very lucky to have turned like my kind of collecting. Cause everyone has a different form of star Wars collecting. My star was collecting is, is stories and just. prose and and you know whatever dvd or blu -ray version that comes out that i've been able to turn you know this obsessive like i need to collect every single version of this book or every single like you know missing story or legends eu thing that i've turned it into you know, part of my profession, you know, so that is like the very like short version of how I got into star Wars. You know, I remember like being in the movie theater in 97 or 96 when

4:30 they announced the special editions and falling to my knees screaming. I remember going to like, you know, it's literally fell to my knees screaming like, like I just couldn't believe that what we're getting to see this in the theaters. And then with the prequels, just like going to like being so excited, going to Star Wars dot com and like refreshing it and like like watching the quick time back and downloading that of the trailer. You know, like Star Wars is ever present.

4:58 You know, the only time like it kind of retreated in some capacity was when between the prequels and the sequels and. To the point that my girlfriend didn't realize that I was a big Star Wars fan, as to the level that I am, because I was talking more about Doctor Who at the time. But then the sequels come back, and I start freaking out.

5:16 And then Rogue One, all that sort of stuff. And to answer the last question, like Andor, how did I discover Andor? I was going to watch it anyway. I mean, I was very public. And I was also very wrong about, like, I'm like, who wants this? Like, why does this show exist? Because I have complex feelings about Rogue One. I think the first two thirds are kind of all over the map. And if you don't think about it too hard, it's, like, it's fun. But, like, you kind of realize, like, wait a minute. Like, did she just, like, Jyn's arc kind of just switched a little bit. That's fine. But then the last third is so. freaking badass you kind of forget like like things are kind of sloppy in the first two -thirds

5:56 so i was like i really don't want more of this character of andor i didn't really get to know him that well and i was wrong Alex and I felt the same way when they, you know, first announced the Andor spinoff show, especially because it came at the same time they were announcing all these other spinoffs, too, of like the solo.

6:15 And I think there was all the talk of like the Boba Fett movie, too, around the same time. I mean, it's a spinoff of a spinoff, which does not bode well. Yeah, it didn't bode well. It felt like it was. I felt like at the time that they were like, just kind of like finding reasons to make a spin spinoffs. Yeah. And, you know, there's other ones that I was excited about, like, which I think I have, you know, like different opinions on. Like, I thought like Acklight had a lot of potential. I'm bummed that we're not going to see season two, but I was really excited about that. Just, you know, in general, just because I'm like, oh, you're opening up new things.

6:44 No, I don't want to do seven minutes at a time, but I want to talk about the Acklight on this podcast, because I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to talk about. Didn't necessarily work, but that's got a lot of interesting things to explore. yeah i mean i got a lot of really interesting things to explore i i think it like it wasn't perfect i think again but like what my excitement was like when it was announced like oh you're opening up new eras like and i think that was something i was excited about i was excited about like i was curious about skeleton crew skeleton crew is really like i think it worked really well there are other series that i you know you can't see all my deal figurines behind me but

7:14 he's so cool uh but like with android like i just was like what is the point of this like we know how the story ends what more is there to say in this period of time get out of this like you know this five -year period of time yeah And, you know, Tony Gilroy proved me fucking wrong. So, you know, I've said this and we'll talk about it more, but like Andor proved to be not just an exemplary version of what you can do with Star Wars in terms of like having a message and using the setting to speak to larger issues and even more intimate issues. But also it's just great sci -fi period. The fact that like anyone can watch it is just kind of a miracle.

7:55 The show is just as near perfect television as I've ever seen. So that is my relationship to Andor. I always feel like I need to always caveat the fact that the internet remembers, I did say, who wants this? And I was wrong. As such a connoisseur of the expanded universe and all this Star Wars lore. This is what we call a Rustine episode.

8:20 Yeah. You know, one of the biggest one of the things that, you know, critics and the virulent fanboys will say is that Andor is embarrassed to be a Star Wars. And I'm just curious, as somebody who who has read and devoured so much of, you know, the Star Wars canon, how do you see Andor fitting in with the pros and the things that you love about the EU? I mean. you know i always like you had the caveat half you have to sort of say it's like the expanded universe especially is is very 90s is very like it's very weird in a lot of ways but like what did you say like very 90s was that what is that i mean like you know look at dash rendari you look at like a lot like everyone like had to go tease and everyone

9:05 had like yeah i'm with you now okay it's like there's certain things that you look back on it and like it's also like it was a space kurt cobain's everywhere Yeah. And also it skewed a bit more. I would say like Star Wars is fundamentally a fantasy, but like it's a science fantasy. A lot of stuff sometimes like skewed a little more science fiction for two degree because a lot of the earlier authors were more hard sci -fi people. So it's a different flavor. But at the same time, like. There was a book called Death Star, and it was all about the people getting the Death Star plans. Like, what was great about the EU, and I think what's exemplified by, like, Andor, is that it gave you a chance to explore,

9:45 you know, various different aspects and different levels of the Star Wars canon. You know, you had, like, here's a story about, I always think about, like, Jedi. I forget what it was. It's Coruscant Knights. And it was basically, like, a part. Sorry, it's Coruscant. knights yeah but like it was like you know without the k you know and like but it was about like this like uh like or survivor of order 66 like solving mysteries in coruscant you know you had the med star which is about like you know i think it was like a luminara because i own them i haven't read them like you know on this medical frigate you know trying to save like clones and soldiers during the the clone wars you had dark forces which

10:26 is you know both like the game and and the the literary adaptation where like it was about like the guy who got the death star plans or one of the guys who got death star plans and you had eye jedi which is just this pov character pov of uh corn horn uh like sort of reliving living through like major aspects of the eu so it's like this the thing that is like it's embarrassed to be star wars i think that's not seeing the forest for the trees because it's like you look at the old eu and it was so diverse in terms of the stories it was telling And I think that's what I and I've talked about this. I've talked about this with Lucasfilm. It's like what is great about Star Wars as a as a franchise is

11:08 that unlike Marvel, but not too dissimilar to Star Trek, is that. But Star Wars isn't necessarily like you follow this one character. It's not like always Luke Skywalker story because you have the prequels. It's now also Anakin Skywalker story. It's also Rey Skywalker story. It's Andor story. It's it can be the Mando story. You know, it's a question of eras. In Star Trek, you have the original the original series. You have the next generation. You have Voyager. Everyone has a favorite era that they love. And that's kind of what Star Wars is. andor is proven is that there are also not just like different eras but there's different like maturities there's different sort of like you know how it's a question of

11:54 a dial like how high are you gonna like dial up the you know the weird star wars sci -fi like you know like fantasy aspects like an ahsoka or you can you can go and like dial a bit more like a bit more grounded like an andor you have these two ways around you have multiple ways around it It's almost like teaching the American Civil War in elementary school versus high school.

12:15 Like it's the same story, but you can increase – like the Underground Railroad sounds really cool when you're a fifth grader and then you realize, oh, it's not an actual railroad. Yeah. Well, yeah, but it's also like, you know, I think it's – again, it kind of goes down to like – There's just multiple ways in. I think what's been really, really interesting for me is, and I think what is sometimes lost, is I was called the George Lucas apologist growing up because I liked the prequels. I had fans who were like, you're not a real fan. The original trilogy is the only good one. If you like the prequels, you suck. You're a prequel or George Lucas apologist.

12:48 And then I also generally liked the sequels, and they're like, oh, you're just a, what do they call me? A Disney shell or something. A Disney shell. chill and i'm just like i remember this like this is exactly what happened it's like what they're missing is is part of the again the appeal of star wars as a franchise is like you can just like all right this is the stories i really enjoy and you can kind of just keep on digging you can dig as far as you want in that sort of section of the galaxy i think like you see with the high republic where like you have the high republican fans just that's their star wars i think it's just it's important to like remember that like you know you can love everything and there are some who do there are

13:28 some that like andor is going to speak more to them than others there's going to be people who feel like the mandover speaks more that that's their star wars there's people who are going to like the seagulls with their star wars there are people like the original trilogy is just their star wars in there and to your question before they're people who prefer the eu to everything they rather than read the books and the actual movies and that's cool man like just i mean also especially the scene we're going to talk about today like it's embarrassed to be star wars like i don't know man like this is the one the first scene in this episode we're talking about is weird as hell yeah and and in that answer you

14:04 named so many deep lore characters that i think just sailed right over Alex's head. And so I think that, and I'm usually, yeah, he wants it that way. We usually wait a little bit to ask this question, but I think we need to get it out now to, to really get into it, which is in honor of the late great WTF with Mark Marin, Adam, who are your glup shittos? I mean, the easy answer is always going to be Dexter Jester.

14:33 Yes. Obviously for, for those who don't know, I, My very first Star Wars was in Return of the Jedi from a Certain Point of View, which told the celebration of Coruscant from Dexter Jester's point of view. Incredible. And it's incredible. Yes, it's a great piece. It's everything I dreamed it would be. It's called The Veteran and highly recommend everybody listening go grab a copy at your local bookstore and check it out. Please, please do. But it's funny because it's like that, the story behind that story. is one of your former guests my dear friend my hashtag very good friend patrick willems wrote on twitter back when it was twitter and things mattered he wrote something along the lines of like when is there going to

15:14 be like a dexter jester a star wars story and i originally i think i wrote back something along the lines of like but star but but patrick you hate star wars and then i was like wait a minute like i actually i have i started coming up with an idea and i was like i because i was like my brain was like what happened to him And when I was given the opportunity to write for that anthology, you know, they gave you a list of like, they're like, look, what do you want to write? I got an email from the editor, Elizabeth Schaefer, who wrote like, you know. do you want to write a star war and i was really glad that i was uh i was literally like kneeling down and cleaning out my sink because i would have fallen

15:54 all down at that point and you know she said like you know just so you know like a lot of ewoks and a lot of the job is pals characters taken like the rules were like anyone but luke khan leia 3po r2 and vader you know anyone but the main core i think lando as well i think i can't remember but immediately i wrote back dexter jester on the course on during the celebration and the big note they're like i think she was kind of surprised because i was like because i was like no one else is going to pick this choice yeah no one else is going to pick sex or jester and i because i really wanted i really there's a few things i mean it was a bit of andor influence but it's also um if it was out then i can't remember anymore But I felt like there

16:36 was something really interesting always for me when like prequel characters showed up in the sequels or in the original trilogy, just seeing that dynamic. And then the idea of like, you know. I was so mad he didn't show up in Obi -Wan. Right? Yeah, I was expecting that too. There was a version of the Obi -Wan show where it's just like Blade Runner Obi -Wan where he's just hanging out in Coruscant going solving mysteries and hanging out with the diner. That show would have been incredible. Yeah. I mean, I think you should read course on nights. I, I, I thought, well, I mean, for me, like what was interesting for me was like, you know, the last thing we know, Dexter Jester, like he's like the reason

17:15 we have this clone war started. So like, how does it feel? And it was like, I was like, how does it feel to like see something that you've always wanted to see? Like this, like you felt like this reign of terror was over and the people that you wanted to celebrate with are gone. And I remember like it was interesting because the notes I got back on like the initial pitch was like, we make sure that like Dexter, like he's mourning and this loss and all the stuff. And they're like, make sure like Dexter gives like a someone like hope for the next thing. And I was like, actually, it's the other way around.

17:52 And they're like, oh, OK. run with it. Yeah. It just was an interesting story to tell of this jovial character that you meet. And I think everyone kind of expected like, oh, this would be a fun story with Dexter Jester. And I was like, no, he's sad. You know, it's just like just seeing that sort of like, you know, he blames himself for the war. He blames himself for like, he thinking like Obi -Wan, he's like indirectly the reason why Obi -Wan's dead, but he's not sure if he's dead. I just felt like it was just, it was, he had such a backstory. that we never saw. And there's all this unseen stuff between, you know, Attack of the Clones and Return of the Jedi that just felt like just an interesting narrative

18:33 to tell, an interesting, like, life story to, like, sort of hint at. But yeah, so Dexter Jester is, like, my, I would say, my easy club shadow. There's also, like, a character that I created that I love, but, uh, Jessicore. But Alex, you're going to say something. Oh, yeah. I think we will talk about more. But like, I think what I loved about your story is it really tapped into the like the immigrant narrative of Dexter.

18:55 That to me, it's always like Dexter is such like a Greek diner owner to me in my mind, because that's the East Coast diners are Greek. And that's just like that is the guy who came in. And there's something about like the diner is always sort of like run by an immigrant trying to sort of follow in America, follow the American ideal.

19:08 And there's such an element of Dexter. He's like, he's not human. He's trying to build a sort of like Coruscanti, you know. diner that works for everybody and so tapping into the fact that he has this background he's gone from place to place yeah and never really feels at home really really touched me in a way i was not expecting so thank you and i love that he brings like this wealth of experience with him that like he's seen something like this before yeah like at the beginning of the story you say hope was for the foolish and tonight the fools were feasting tomorrow they would wake to empty stomachs and the idea that like dexter as an old as an old onk you know he's he's seen all this happen before and and

19:50 wants to get caught up in the jovial celebration that we see at the end of return of the jedi like as surprising as it is like in the special edition like we do cut away to coruscant and get to see people celebrating right like that was something that was within the text of that film and so to imagine dexter there a part of the crowd, but also feeling apart from it was really powerful. And I love how, like you said, I think the easy thing is he gives somebody hope at the end, but I think the way you flipped it really impacted me. Thank you. I mean, it was definitely like the real life inspirations were like the 2020 election. you know i remember people dancing in the street literally so i it was weird

20:41 because it's like we were my partner was like just convinced like it's he's gonna win again it's like there's no hope you know And then we'd like, there was that extended period of time where we just didn't know. And I went for a run and then like everyone's looking at their phones and it's just, it was announced and it felt like, oh my God, it's finally there. We finally did it. But it's like, you know, it's also knowing that like the feelings I was having at the time, like my dad wasn't alive and had, oh, he wasn't, it was 20, it was 2021, the election, right?

21:09 Or no, wait. 2020. 2020, yeah. So it was 2020. He was, he wasn't well anymore. So he. was never like he had dementia so he couldn't really appreciate what was going on so it's like not being able to celebrate it with him and then there was also this aspect of like i know history and also i also understood like the context of the star wars canon at that point you know just be like and you know we see it now like just because you win this big battle doesn't mean it's gonna last forever so you take like with dex it was like taking which fails now prescient at the time now in retrospect but at the time is like well i know as the writer that like the Republic is going to fall again and that there's going

21:51 to be an alt -right sort of rise within the Star Wars universe. So, you know, how do I take that sort of like meta knowledge and tie it into someone who's lived long enough to sort of like hint at where things are going, but that feels true to like where he is and who he is at that point. So yeah, that was like a lot of those sort of inspirations behind where he was in the short story. It's a novel. I haven't done that yet.

22:15 It tapped into something that I think I really enjoy about Star Wars. And I think, Not to, you know, turn into people who can't defend themselves. But I think what I find is that a lot of people who did not, who are maybe more of the reactionary base of Star Wars, hate the idea that the struggle continues. I mean, they want it to be that it was solved and, like, Luke saved the galaxy and now the story's over. And the idea that, like, these things are more complicated and go on and, you know, history doesn't end. I think people find that very frustrating. They want this to be the sort of, like, moral story that ends there.

22:43 And they don't really want to have that extra complexity continue on. I mean, I don't want to like, this is the Andor podcast. I don't want to like dive into the Last Jedi podcast. It is basically the Last Jedi podcast as well. Yeah, I know. I know the Venn diagram between people who like Andor and the Last Jedi is close to a circle, at least in my experience. But for me, it's sort of like. That was the thing that I loved about, like, Luke in that story. It felt, like, close to reality. Like, as many flaws, like, as much as, like, I kind of wish, like, Abrams did a little bit more world building about stuff in The Force Awakens, I feel like what really rang true for me is, like, oh, like, that

23:20 didn't necessarily work in the EU. Was that, and it doesn't, it doesn't, actually. So here's a quick detour. What always doesn't make sense to me about folks who dislike the fact that, like, luke kind of abandoned the galaxy besides the fact that like that was lucas's pitch what they don't like about like having the empire sort of come back in the first order it's like if you read the eu that's kind of what happened you know ultimately after like uh the yushan vong you know like after they come through admiral dala you know the basically imperial remnant essentially becomes i'll be back gets in charge of yeah No, but my, but my point is, it's just like, it's there. It's always there, but it's

24:03 also, it's reality. So it's just like, I never understood the, I never understood that I can play it. Cause I'm like, well, that's just, that's what's in the books. It happens slightly differently, but it's, you know, not too dissimilar to what we've seen. So. Exactly. Yeah. But, but the other thing is that it just felt more true to life that like, how many like former hippies have I met that like, like we fall for nothing. you know like everything we did or they're like on the other side of the equation out now it's just like yeah it would be nice if it was clean that like everything's like happy go lucky and they win but like that's the great thing about like the last shadow for me and what's great about

24:36 andor it's like no it's actually really messy like the fight is messy it's exhausting i mean your dexter is exhausted i'm so tired yeah yeah he he goes into the dilapidated remains of his his diner at one point in your story and you just feel the weight of like these crushed hopes and dreams of his that like he had, he had made this space that was his and was a vision. Well, after, after you killed off Wanda, that was jaw dropping for Wanda. For Wanda. Well, I think it's like, so the diners. So that's one of those funny things where, and this is something that I think Gilroy really. The first season came out, what, 2022, right? Or 2023? 2022. So, yeah.

25:21 It was 2022 and then season one of Obi -Wan, which is a real... Yeah. Well, I think with... I'll leave it there. Andor, I think, and what Gilroy taught me, I think, just by, like, it's understanding how to use and play within canon in a way that, like, elevates. So, like, the original pitch did have the diner. Because that's what I thought the diner existed. Then I remember Chuck Wendig got implied, heavily implied in the aftermath books that the diner was closed.

25:52 So there are two ways you can go about dealing with something like that. You can ignore it. which you know perfectly in my right to do like you know it's not it's implied it's not outrightly say that the the diner was closed or you can double down and like the question then becomes it's like well how does that affect him you know i think that that what was interesting about writing the dexter justice story and i think what's interesting about like andor is that when you first sort of think about it Like when I first pitched Dex, I'm like, well, no one's written anything. He doesn't have anything defined. I can, I have sort of like whatever I want to do with this character because Dexter Jester in

26:29 Return of the Jedi, there is nothing there. But then you start taking into account like, well, okay, so the diner's closed. Okay. So why is it closed? How does that affect him? And then you're also like, you, you find like in the smugglers guy, like he was over there. He's an office key for a little bit. And then you're like, Oh, what was happening on course at this time? What happened on course during this period of time? So you start realizing, you think you have like a blue sky belief, but actually what you have is you have a box. You have to sort of fit within this box and you can either paint out, figure out a way to pan outside the lines or what I think is, again what i think is exemplified by gilroy

27:08 what i try to do when i work within canon is you start asking yourself like well how does this affect this character how do i bend the story to fit within this box in a way that feels true to this character and pushes his narrative forward you know in a way that feels true because it's it could just be like oh well he reopened the diner or whatever but like what's more interesting to me it's like well he lost it So then, you know, what happened to Wanda? Like, how does that affect him? You know, you start realizing that the canon actually can deepen the narrative for these characters. And honestly, it's one of my favorite things to do where you're just, like, trying to figure out, like, in my other

27:49 short story where I had, like, I introduced a new character in The Failing of the Light. You start, like, okay, like. she's going to be existing during revenge of the sith it's like so how do these events affect her like how do they like you know it could be yeah so i i think it's it could be just i i ignore them or like sort of like just sidestep them but i think again what andor taught me is that it's these stories the this canon can like really really shape how these characters are defined you know obviously this is not the episode we were talking about but like the gorman massacre is a perfect example of how you do it you just yes and everything and then the fact that now there are two gorman

28:32 massacres actually deepens the lore in a really fascinating way so that's kind of how i uh that that's uh why i killed wanda that's why i closed the i just picked up what was already put down you know i'm just trying to move these things forward Gilroy has two metaphors that kind of go hand in hand with what you're talking about one being the idea of putting more toys into the toy box than you took out right and I felt that in your story as far as like you're taking Dexter out. It's not just putting him back in the same context that we already knew him in.

29:07 We're now in this new era and we get to see a new side of him. It's almost like the sad Dexter toy gets to get added into there along with the jovial one. The other metaphor is him talking about working with the story group and how they are like the Vatican and helping to - read the lore of star wars and not just but not just read but also interpret it and i feel that when you're talking about like in this other piece it's implied yeah i can choose to read that however i want and i can choose to put meaning onto that and and i see how you did that in your piece and i thank you i appreciate that and i i also say like i going back to like the putting more toys back in it's like it's the same it's a similar

29:57 conversation i've had like with Lucasfilm it's like I want to you want to open doors like I think there's an I think there's something really exciting about like closing loops and like explaining how certain things happened but what's again what's great about Andor is like how it opens doors it puts more things in it raises the right questions where you're like like what is who is Luthan like okay so like here's this mysterious guy who's part of the rub the early founding the rubber lines we never heard of him before but it's like well why haven't we heard of him before you know it's like it's just the idea of putting more end makes the universe feel larger and that's the best part like this is a this

30:35 is a galaxy of trillions of planets with billions of species like it should feel continually growing in every way possible and there's so many ways as i mentioned like this weighs in for everybody like it's either like discovering andor it's discovering anakin the story it's watching mando whatever it should always feel like you're you're always seeing more because it's it's kind of infinite Speaking of adding more, you had a second club, you know, which I think is the first time someone, the club shit was something they created.

31:03 So yes. So in failing the light, it's a short story to wrote for Star Wars Insider. It was my second Star Wars story. And that, that was an interesting challenge, but like Jessica core is one of my favorite characters I've written recently. And to your point about like, uh, with Dexter's like an immigrant story like this, it was sort of like a refugee story and how also.

31:26 you know war and how just not seeing taking care of refugees can like people can be radicalized you know like trying to give an understanding of like how like someone who is so innocent and has like you know has all that all stripped away like the wrong person meeting them at the right time can lead to like something that in their mind is justified but exterior like exterior is You know, this is no, no, no. Like, this is the bad choice. What you're doing is wrong. But for her, it's right. She's just a really fascinating character. And it's one of those where, like, I would love to do more stories with her. But at the same time, I'm kind of happy. Like, she's just kind of off doing her thing. But yeah, that's

32:10 one of my favorite Glyph shit. She's yeah. Her story still breaks my heart. So I did it to her. So not the perfect, not very profound question. statement to my question of like, what is your algorithm to how to create Star Wars names? Oh, man. So it's interesting. So Jessica Korr is named after my friend Jeff Shasho, my friend Courtney Bartlett. So I just took two Star Wars fans and I kind of mixed and matched them. kit bash your friends names yeah i do a lot uh so beckon menez was named after my friend kevin howard and his wife emily menez there's a few like sometimes i take like my friends names and sort of like mix and match them and like sort of like swap things out sometimes it's just like

32:50 oh that just sounds right it's just funny like it's like it's so obvious like what is the star wars name and what's not but there's no reason for that to be obviously a star wars name but it's just yeah it sounds right My algorithm is kind of like a sound. It's like a mouthfeel, if that makes sense. You know that when you hear a Star Wars name, that feels like a Star Wars name. You're like, yeah, that feels right. I don't know why. There's nothing like it's hard to define. You know, like, again, like, Vekin felt Star Wars -y. Like, Jessa felt Star Wars y. You know, I keep on, like, a list. You know, like, I want to hopefully, if I'm ever so lucky, to, like, canonize, like, my rope -laying group

33:27 into Star Wars. But, like, I can't, like, one of my friends is Eddie Kanopsky. I'm like, I can't. Like, maybe I can find a way to get Eddie in there, but Kanopsky, come on. So it's, I tend to, like, take, like, either like first and last letters and merge them. Sometimes it's like just swapping them around. Again, sometimes you're just like, like with Maya Pay, like, you know, it's just you, someone you hear, I'm like, yeah, that just sounds right. So I'm going to use that.

33:56 So yeah, there's no like one algorithm. It's just, it's again, it sounds weird to say like mouthfeel, like you just like, yeah, that's, it sounds right. That tastes right. It's like Supreme Court hearing on pornography. It's, you know, when you hear it, like, yeah, you can't define it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, with that, should we dive into our seven minutes of Andor because we've got a lot to discuss this week. They're not killing ye. Yes, we left last week's episode on a cliffhanger where Cassian and Melshi got themselves captured in a slime net by a pair of squiggly hunting fishermen by the names of Dewey and Freedy who blamed the Empire for their scobbing prison ruining the planet. And we return this week as the one -eyed

34:43 Dewey soliloquies. Kill anyone they would. Kill the water. Kill the squigglies. Care not a snod who they kill, eh? A better monologue than Luton or Keno in the previous episode, yeah. It is honestly a great little monologue because like it takes you on this journey where these guys pull out a sword and we think they're going to kill Andor. But then the music cuts out and Dewey says, scob the empire. They not be killing ye nay today. And he releases the net and the two men are freed and they share like a confused look with each other. As Dewey says, wise to be jumping quickly, though. Where ye be looking to run now, eh? And Cassian asks, Neamos? And Freedy and Dewey laugh, knowing that they've

35:34 got, you know, a fun time in space Miami ahead of them. And so we were talking before, you alluded to this earlier, the idea of like... this scene is a perfect example of how, you know, and or is not embarrassed to be Star Wars. Last week, we talked about how Gilroy called this his Sergio Leone meets the Coen brothers scene. And I think that, yeah, right. Like Cassian and Mel, she have just gone through this incredibly heroic prison escape and they immediately get themselves captured by. two, like, obese Jar Jar Binks guys, right? Yeah. If you swapped in John Goodman and Steve Buscemi, it would work exactly the same way. It would, yes. It absolutely would. Yeah.

36:22 And just the juxtaposition of those two things and the idea that, you know, these guys, their hatred of the Empire leads them to want to help out and be chill dudes to Cassian and Melshi is just an incredible twist. It's also like I love the way they speak. It's also just, it's so just. They're so weird. Like, it's one of those things I remember the first time I saw them, like, where you're like, what the hell is going on? I don't understand. Like, especially the guy, remind me of their names. Dewey is the one -eyed guy, and Freedy is, like, the big, like... Yeah, Freedy freaks me out, because it's just, like, the head is just a little off. But there's also, like, the more I, like... He's a follower of the Bushido Code. Give him some

37:10 slack. But the more, like, I look at them, it's just, like, I'm playing the clip now. and just like, they're so like wonderfully weird and like discomfortingly weird. It's so Star Wars. Yeah, you can never judge a book by its cover, right? Like these guys look like they could maybe do a deliverance scene on Cassian and Melchi, but they're actually chill. exactly but it's also like just like they're very like they're janky in a star wars way if that makes sense like sometimes the appeal of like the puppets and you know the like they don't work perfectly like with like yoda like you know he's kind of seamless but at the same time he's Kind of not. So, like, the fact that, like, these guys are just, like,

37:56 just a little off from, like, what, like, they kind of fall a bit into that uncanny valley. It's like, it's Super Star Wars. And it's just, then it's just, like, it's this hidden, you know, political message of just, like, yeah, the Empire, like, doesn't care about the environment. That doesn't feel relevant at all. Yeah, exactly.

38:16 And goofy looking guys can have, like, good political analysis. Exactly, yeah. It's, yeah. I'm wondering, because production -wise, do we know if, I know Narkina 5 was the last thing they shot, but if the production block was, I wonder if at this point, Tony Gilroy knew he couldn't say fuck the empire with a Marva. So he put it in as a scop the empire. I think from, from what I've heard, the fuck the empire was in a cut. It was in a screener that some have seen. Interesting.

38:48 Like the butthole cut of cats. Many have seen it. No, no, because the butthole cut... They put that one out. That's true, that's true. Or no, the butthole they never put out. You're right, you're right. Yeah, yeah. The butthole cut is like... That's almost like... I don't know necessarily how true that is. That feels more like a rumor.

39:06 I've actually spoken to someone who watched it because they asked me... Okay, wow, okay. Breaking news on Andorx. Yeah. Yeah, I won't name them, but when I saw... a screener of it and they're like oh what does she say at the end and you know it's like no she says fight the emperor he's like well the cut i saw she said so and this is someone like i i like i know for a fact like it's not like people who saw like oh i saw the other alternate cut of like indiana jones and dial of destiny it was a completely different ending and i'm like no no that you like you did not see that that cut does not exist you are lying this is someone who I know for a fact saw an early cut. So there was a version of that

39:51 exists on a hard drive where she says, fuck the empire. So to answer your question, Alex, no. Well, then to my point, I'd like to have one keep saying, fuck the empire in their own ways. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And I think like it's fitting that these characters are saying that because. we read the rise and fall of the galactic empire book for, for our Patreon and orcs detours. Have you had Chris on? No, we didn't have him on, but you need to have him on. We do need to have him. He's got a book to remote coming out. Like, yeah, he's in England, but he'll be in New York at comic -con. And like, I mean, look, Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire is a masterpiece.

40:34 And also, Chris is a good dude. So you should definitely have him. As I keep putting the people, I go, the Wookiees have their version of Shoa. That is all I need to know to buy the book. Yes. But I was bringing that up because he goes into detail about how, you know, aliens in the galaxy were. on the vanguard of seeing the fascism of the empire and resisting it. And I think we're seeing that kind of pop up here that these two guys are saying scob the empire before any human, you know, before most of the human characters, even somebody like Marva, you know, has only kind of just come around to saying fuck the empire herself. And I think that's just like an interesting thing to kind of see pop up in the show and presage

41:20 Marva's own. speech you know an episode later yeah god what a what a great speech yeah you get the speech or you get the little fun little wibbly wobbly guys i think i i know which i prefer squirties me today you might be a god i also like i love the and this is just like a production thing but like I love that they use a quad jumper.

41:45 That was probably like a leftover prop from the force awakens. Like I just, that's something that like, it's weird. These two guys are leftover like characters too. Yes. Like Dewey was originally a model used in Saw Gerrera's partisans for a character called Cyclocke or, or something like that. Oh, okay. And then Freedy was made for solo and only appears like very briefly in that film. So, So this whole scene is kind of like a little out from the archives of Lucas's creature shop. But I think that's like, again, like kind of speaks to how efficient and how like understanding how, like how good Gilroy was at like picking and choosing like cannon and things around there.

42:33 Cause it's just like, you know, it's a galaxy like planet, you know, it's just, it's yeah. I love that stuff. And it's also like, it just makes the world feel. It makes Andor feel like more connected to the larger galaxy. I also love when they tell them they're going to Niamo's. They do this laugh like, oh, we've had our times in Niamo's. You guys have some fun. Oh, Vegas, baby. Yeah. I think we probably talked about this last week, but Gilroy is very proud of this scene. He called it one of the hardest scenes to do in the show. It had the most meetings out of any scene to try to make sure that they could modulate the tone in the right way that it didn't become... too jarringly comedic for the show.

43:16 And he says that, you know, this was the most successful creatures he rode in season one were these fishermen. And he says people were like, if you can do that, why aren't you doing more of it? But it was a lot of work. And so this scene very much opened him up, I think, to the idea of putting more aliens into season two.

43:37 Yeah. I mean, it's also, like, you know, there's a level of pulp that comes with the aliens. And also, like, you gotta, like, it also raises the production costs. You know, I'm sure, like, that's a big part of it. this is not a cheap series to make by any stretch. The fact that we got two seasons with like the, how streaming is going is still remains a miracle. And part of that was, you know, like Gilroy was smart about how he used his production money. That's why we have like, you know, as much as I would have loved five seasons of this show. But yeah, I think part, I don't think it's embarrassing. He's like, he was just smart about how he used production.

44:13 I mean, reading the Art of Andor book, it's clear how much COVID fucked with this production, and it was even more complicated than it even seems for them to even get this off the ground. Yeah. It's him and Belshi and two aliens in a wide open space. Yep. It's like, oh, right, this is a COVID shoot. Yep. But, like, something new that actually broke just yesterday is that Andor...

44:34 on disney plus is still bringing in nearly a billion minutes of like watch time on disney plus yeah i'm looking at the numbers right now and you have you know daredevil up at the top because that's a brand new season you have percy jackson mandalorian is getting 2 .4 mall is getting 1 .1 billion as a brand new show and yet and or as a show that premiered over you know a year ago, the second season, it has just under 1 billion, you know, streamed minutes. So I think that, like, this show is sticking around in a way that's really heartening to see. Yeah. To discuss our episode last week, like, Socialist Millennials is just a quadrant that Disney has to keep around to keep them subscribers, and that's what Andor's

45:19 for. Yeah. Well, but I also think it's interesting, like, it's like, I think a lot of, like, the shows have done, like, better over time i think ahsoka did like really well at the gate but it seems like andor and acolyte and maybe skeleton crew have also had like i'm not i don't know about skeleton but i know like people more people are picking that up later on than they have initially which is not surprising but also surprising in the same way I mean, that was the entire promise of streaming television, right? The idea that like it doesn't need to be a big hit right out of the gate because over time people can watch it. And instead, we now live in a world where if it doesn't get, you know, 100 million minutes

46:01 of streaming in the first weekend, it gets canceled. But that's a that's a story. That's a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Do we have any final thoughts about about Dewey and Freedy are squiggly fishermen? I love the way they speak. I just, I love the, like, it's one of those things where, like, I didn't understand what they were saying the first time I watched it. But every time, like, I've watched either, like, for this podcast or just re -watching because I would force people to watch it. Like, hearing them, like, I understand the rhythm of their, the way they like and the way they talk. And I just, I really just, I really enjoy them. Just the way they speak feels very alien, but also, like, totally plausibly, like,

46:40 Star Wars. If anyone's ever listening and you're going to do a certain point of view from the Narcina 5 arc, I will happily do their short story. Yes. I want to know what shenanigans they got up to in Niamos before and what do they do after they drop Andor off on Niamos. I want to know why Freedy gave up his top bun. Clearly he was something and now he's lost it. He has a samurai bun. It's true. What dishonorable thing did he happen that he had to cut the hair? Well, with that, let's let them go off on their adventure and let's return to Coruscant then. Yes. I love the way Coruscant, like they made Coruscant on the series. It's just... Go on. It's a city.

47:28 I mean, it's the whole... I don't know if you know this, but the whole planet's a city. I've heard. I've heard. I have heard of Coruscant and I have heard that it is a full city. Yes. It's subtle. It's subtle. Yes. You know. No, I just rewatched the Phantom Menace last night and I just laughed so much at the whole, the whole planet's a city. Yeah. But, so yeah, in the back room of Luthien's shop, Clay cleans an antique relic. Rusty, any, or Adam, any explanation on what this, I like, I crossed Robin's order to bash. I couldn't find anything. I don't know what this is, dude. We heard her talking about coins, you know, in a previous episode. So I think that's this, you know. Yeah. I think it's just making good on the coin talk a while ago.

48:08 Yeah. But I love this, like, I love this set. I mean, from, like, a deep nerd, like, sort of, like, Easter egg standpoint, it's a lot of fun. But I love that, like, it just kind of shows the diversity of this galaxy. But, like, you know, the fact that you have, like, the little silly things. I love that, like, Gilroy talks about this set where he's just, like, he was so strict about, like, I don't, like, no Easter eggs. No, like, don't play, like, into, like, fan service. And then they just hide all this shit in the background. Like. later on you'll see you know the stuff from like the the mother and the daughter and that whole stuff from like and it's like that's cool and like the mandalorian

48:43 thing from i think was from solo all this stuff it's just but yeah i alex i stepped on your toes yes i think also to me i think the combination of this of reading your short story and the rise and fall of the galactic empire and just like this open the scene opens with like clay having to clean a coin that we are so used to star wars being this like here are the biggest people on the biggest story happening that there are just people whose jobs are running a diner or cleaning antiques or you know being a history professor who needs to do like his research project like the fact that these people and aliens just exist amongst the star wars world makes it so much richer and makes all the other stuff so much

49:20 for me this is the stuff i find interesting it's just like yeah these are just normal people in slightly different universes and that makes it inherently interesting but they're just people living their lives i mean obviously clay is doing more than that but this could just be somebody's job but it speaks to her character right that like this is her cover job you know her real job is running a intergalactic rebel network and yet here she is doing her cover job with as much concentration and focus as the real work that she's doing every day. And, and so the show is a great example of how you can take these really minor elements and use them to reveal information about your characters. Also, like,

50:05 it just like, I, I just want to make sure I got her name, right? Like Elizabeth Dulao. Is it Dulao? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Like Elizabeth Dulao on, in, in this role is just incredible. Like it is one of those. Her first role. Her first role. Which is insane. What we see in this scene, I think. is really special. So we'll get in.

50:21 Yeah. Let's get, we'll get into it once we really start getting into the meat of it. No, because I think to your point, like this is like, she's just kind of there for most of it. Like not there, but it's like, you don't really know her, who she is and her role, but then you have this scene and you realize like what a powerhouse she is, both as a character and as an actor. Just, yeah.

50:42 Yes. My ex -wife, Clay Marquis. Even in the fantasy, she's divorced me. Yes. Vel in her Shangri -La vest arrives and waits outside the rotating door. Clea takes her time to bust her in. And in a wonderful shot, matching the armor behind her, Clea puts on her metaphorical mask, smiles, and straightens into position. I guess that's the Mandalorian suit behind her, right? Yeah, it's like an ancient Mandalorian -inspired, samurai inspired suit of armor that looks very much out of, like, Knights of the Old Republic. Yeah, I mean, she's getting ready for battle in that scene. She's preparing to sort of have this fight with Vel. It's just such a clever little shot that I doubt I noticed the first few times I

51:27 watched it. But when you have to do this level of like rewatching, you're like, oh shit, she's in the exact same pose. Yes. Clea asks Vel if she can help. And Vel says that she understands her cousin's shops here. And then Clea goes, oh, Senator Mothma? Vel asks if they're alone. And Clea goes into Luthen doublespeak mode. and asks if she'd like to buy something for her cousin.

51:46 She's been collecting jewelry. Vel doesn't want to play long and doesn't have time for this. Never breaking her smile, Clea makes sure her back is to the glass windows. She reminds Vel that we have rules for a reason, and you don't seem to understand that. Yeah, you talked about like the Luthan doublespeak, and I think this is what makes this scene so amazing for... elizabeth because she's doing this thing of putting on the performance for the window yeah right of demonstrating you know the the shop to to vel while kind of dressing her down and and you know telling her that you're breaking the rules and yet to the outside perspective, it would look like just any other day in there. And she does

52:33 such an amazing job at it. And it's also like, it gives you insight into the real dynamics of like Val and like where her role in the, in this early rebellion is. And also like the writing on the double speak is just incredible. Like I, it's something that I'm still trying to figure out how to do better as a writer. Like the, like you're saying one thing, but you're also saying another. It's just masterful. Like, we understand everything that's being said, even though she's not saying it at all. It's just, I don't know, the whole dynamic of the scene is just really interesting. It also shows the rebellion as being so much less idealistic and, you know, as we sort of understand it in A New Hope. It's like

53:14 this, it is a conspiracy. It is a lot of espionage in a way that we don't really get to see. I don't remember where I read it, but someone had such a great take of, they're like, well why is clay and not there at the everyone's just so obsessed with the medal ceremony in episode four of like why would clay and not be there and they'd be like clay would see the crucial importance to having like a blonde farmer be the one that wins this that that would yeah she understands the propagandic value of that and she would not be there i think that's a very good reading of the character But then like you see like Amidala's like headdress, like a Jedi Guardian's mask.

53:47 It's just like, this is cool. But I love that like it's there and it means nothing to the scene, but it's just cool that it's there. It all works diegetically, right? That they're like among the relics of Star Wars history. Makes sense. Like I think when we first talked about this set, we talked about how It was probably important to Luthan and a part of his mindset that he is surrounded by relics of all these previous wars and conflicts as a reminder of, you know, the lineage that they are following as they, you know, embark on this new civil war. That being said, they do stop in front of, you mentioned this earlier. I think the inverse to that, which maybe has not hit me before, is I think it's

54:37 very fascinating that these are products they're selling to the extremely wealthy to own these items of warfare and death and cultural objects to just sit in their living room as a talking piece. They are literally selling the history of oppression back to these wealthy people with that context. Oh, this is so interesting. Look at the history of this piece. This was something that was a holy relic to a culture. At some point.

55:03 And as we see in season two, though, they are weaponizing that by implanting microphones and tracking devices into these as well. So they have weaponized, you know, the wealthy of Coruscant's, you know, interest in collecting tchotchkes against them. I'd rather be your wardrobe person. Well, you know, they stop. in front of uh these broken fragments from the world between worlds tablet which is like a major part of rebels and ahsoka and there's just something very funny to me of imagining somebody explain mortis to tony gilroy i just imagine if anyone tried to do that he would have probably quit on this spot yeah But to your point, they kind of snuck it in there.

55:54 Do you want to explain to me what that is? Because I don't know. Mortis is an arc of Clone Wars where Anakin ends up on this planet where he meets Physical representations of the light side and the dark side and the master in the middle who holds the balance and the two are his kids. And he then is supposed to like take the place of that, but then, you know, shirks that responsibility, foreshadowing the ways in which he is, you know, going to bring balance to the force before or after he, you know, destabilizes it. The implication being that, like, in Phantom Menace, you know, he's the chosen one. The idea was that, like, this was where he was chosen to be, is that he was, like, he was chosen to take the place of

56:43 the father, is what he's called, like, the balance in the force. But he rejects it. And so in rejecting it, he becomes Vader. Yeah. The Mortis arc is interesting. It's... I'll edit the list. You're going to be so mad if you watch that and you're going to hate it. I'm sorry. Well, I wonder if this is the original intent of the design, but it did really remind me without that context of like the Samsara circle of. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So just so you know, like the Samsara, that's not what we're referring to. It's the stuff that's like. It's around 1034. Oh, not the circle thing. Okay. It's like these three pieces. You'll see hands. It's like. Yeah. Like, yeah. Just to the left of the Samsara. Yeah.

57:32 Yeah. Yeah. Vel says she sent up a flag. Clea counters that they would have seen it tomorrow, but Vel catches her. We? The Fondor's gone. And Clea's mad that Vel even picked up that much. Clea tells Vel she's off the rails and she's lucky he's not here. Vel isn't in the mood for this. I gave him Aldani, she said. What have you done lately? Clea stares back daggers or stares back Nautilin bleeders. And then sort of gives her back her version of the my mind is a sunless place speech to Vel. Clea reorients and loses her smile. I don't have lately. I have always. I have a constant blur of plates spinning and knives on the floor and needy panic faces the windows of which you are one but of many.

58:13 Yeah, this is. star making little mini monologue for her right like she's doing such a good job of playing the part of the shopkeeper here but as soon as vel says the words aldani out loud and crosses that line with her where yeah what she is doing is not just unprofessional but dangerous to the rebellion she no longer holds back and tells Vel, you know, the truth of what she's feeling. And I think that Elizabeth just plays that turn so well, that the polite smile drops, and she just kind of exposes the cold heart truth of what this situation is to her. Because Vel, like we have seen, is good at playing the part of the loyal soldier to everybody below her.

59:10 Right. Like maybe it's wrong to call Mon like below her. But like, you know, she she is telling Mon you need to stay in line. She's telling everybody in the Aldani crew, you guys need to stay in line. But when she's with Luthan and when she's with Clea, she exposes, you know, the anxieties that she's feeling. And here she's getting shut down for that. I mean, I just, I love the dynamics of the scene because just like from a writing and performance standpoint, you have two characters coming in with completely different power balances.

59:42 You know, you have Val coming in believing that she has the upper hand. Yeah. You know, and then, you know, Claire like completely undermining her with just a few words. The fact that like, again, Val comes in like thinking she knows everything, but like Claire has like this. unspoken secret. Like she knows more than Val will ever understand and has sacrificed more than Val has. And it's just the power dynamics. It is a verbal conflict that is just, you know, it's just, it's, it's a fascinating scene. It's really just perfectly written, perfectly performed, perfectly shot.

1:00:20 It's just, but again, it's just, it's so and or. Yeah. Versi, I think you're saying, like, to me, I think it's a fair reading. You said, like, the fact that she got mad is because she said Aldani out loud. But to me, I think the really reason she got mad is the what -have -you done -lately question. That, too. Yeah. This is, like, a raw nerve for both her and Luthan of how much they have to do this stuff and not admit it and how much doing a good job makes it look like you've done nothing at all. And so they are frustrated with that conception of them. And I think it's an interesting parallel because I think Luthan knows to end. his rant at lani with like a little bit of sugar to be like genuinely lining i do need you with me like

1:00:59 we and he's honest like we need as many heroes as we can get and then clay is not the point yet where she can't have the shows like she ends it annoyed at bell she doesn't do a thing to to pull her back in. She does give her a little bit though, right? Like in, in the moment immediately after this, you know, after she gets more information.

1:01:17 Yeah. Well, but she makes sure to say like, don't worry, I'll make sure Luther knows it came from you. Right. Like you'll get what you wanted out of, you know, this excursion, but you know, you're still going to get the slap on the wrist. Yeah. And I also like that. I think to your point, Alex, like it is the always like what you've done lately. It's just like, it is. like how dare you say i'm not i like you you think you're working so hard like i'm quite literally like my entire life is this you are you are one little speck like i've been like i've been this way since i was four years old i mean oh eight years old excuse me but like yeah it's just like this is every single moment of my life i think that's

1:01:58 i think that's where it turns yeah i think it's the thing in organizing where you have people you know who are I always say like downwardly mobile who, you know, think they're good organizers. But then when you face somebody who has lived it for the rest of their lives, it just sort of creates a dissonance in these kind of organizing spaces. That's always an interesting thing to tap into. And the rebellion at this point has been so compartmentalized by Luthan and Clea that like nobody in any point of it has really any contact to see any of the stuff that they're talking about. And I think that also ends up playing into the reason why Luthan kind of falls out with the rebellion, right? That like the

1:02:35 rebellion only really knows about the big stuff that is kind of blown up, like Aldani, like Gorman. And they kind of, I think. they are blaming luthan for those things and that's why we kind of see him on the outs with the rebellion by the end of season two but what kleia is saying here is that like there's all these needy faces outside of this room right now right who are depending on us and you will never see them but i do yeah i am one of them i was one of them i think i was i was thinking a lot about luthan and the rebellion after again reading the rise and fall of like, I think Lutheran would have been furious with the coalition that came out of the New Republic.

1:03:20 I think the fact that they became such a centrist organization, I think that that is partially why he was on the outs, because I think he would not have wanted to just sort of see right wing reactionary, not right wing, but just centrist. The revolution was too willing to bring in people who are wanting to return to status quo. I think he would not have, if he survived, he would not have been happy at any point with what was going on with the New Republic. I don't know about that. I saw for sure. But I think what Luthan's speech says, he knows he won't live to see whatever comes next. What he wants to see is the empire taken down. And I think whatever means necessary, he's okay with. If he would have survived, I

1:04:00 think he would have become equally... frustrated with the new republic would he have been okay with mon mothma dismantling you know the rebel military in favor of you know a piecemeal right planetary defense system you know no i mean that's that's a different question yeah have you guys read like rise of the empire um what's the first book that he wrote no uh by alexander farid oh god guys we need to guys guys what are you doing I've asked this many times. Why do we host this podcast? It's a very valid, good question. You mean the... Alexander Freed's... It's on our list to cover for the show. We're going to get to it. You have to. We're going to read the whole series for our Patreon, patreon .com slash andorgspot.

1:04:46 Like, it's really, it's really... Like, what is it? No, it's... What is it called? It's not Rise of the Empire. The Mask of Fear. Mask of Fear, yeah. Mask of Fear is like just... So good. And it feels so relevant. But Reign of Empire, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah, yeah. The trilogy. Yes. Patreon .com slash and orcs pod. You'll hear us talk all about it. And if there are better people to be hosting this podcast, please let us know. We'll happily. If you can get Alexander Fried on, I think it'd be great. Yeah, we're going to do an episode with the folks at the Authorized Novelizations podcast. And they've got a line with Alex. So we're going to get to do it. Yeah. Wait, is that with Pomato? Yeah,

1:05:33 yeah. With Pomato and Hannah and... The last place I ever thought I'd hear about Pomato. I've known Pomato 20 years. Oh, really? He hasn't watched Andor, so he's not on the guest list yet, but he said he's going to watch it whenever he does. You can go yell at him after this. Oh, I trust me. I yell at him all the time. No, we need to get drinks for a while. Like Pomato.

1:06:00 Yeah, I've known Johnny Pomato, I think, since sophomore year of college. He came to my house for Thanksgiving once. So, yeah, I'm actually going to be on that in October, November. What are you covering? I'm going to be covering The Mask of Zorro, which is connected to the Legacy of Zorro audio drama that I wrote that's coming out in November. Cool. That's awesome. We'll be sure to link to that. I was on for Kingdom Hearts. Yes. Yeah, Alex did Kingdom Hearts. I will say, though, the ender of it all, the connection to the legacy of Zorro, it's just like, I realized, oh, I could say something with this. It's about a Mexican hero fighting against a resurgent ex Confederates. Doesn't feel relevant at all.

1:06:46 Imagine that. Imagine that. I always say history. It's free real estate. Yeah. So yeah, finally, Clea asks, what is so important? She'll make sure Luthien finds out it's from Vel. Vel tells her that Marva is dead, and that she'll be leaving in the morning to join Cinta on Ferrix. And Clea puts back on her fake smile, I'll let him know.

1:07:05 Vel smirks real as she walks out. Good scene. Yeah, their little tete -a -tete ends with a kind of begrudging respect between the two of them. That like, okay, we both made our points here. That, you know. Clea got Vel in line, but Vel proved that she does indeed have, you know, information that is important to share. And then Clea returns to fake Clea mode. Yeah. Before we go back to go back to Ferex. Yeah, we return to Ferex where we're seeing that. The word about her death has really spread throughout the community, and her home remains under constant surveillance, both from Cinta and also from Agent Korv, who spots the big man, Brasso, as he comes to check in on B2, who is so happy to see him. You can

1:07:59 hear B squeal in delight from across the street when he sees that Brasso is here. Wait, can you? Wait. You hear him say, Say like, oh, you're here, thank goodness. At least when the door opens. Well, you skipped something very important. What did I skip? What did I skip? The Time Grappler's back. The Time Grappler shows up, yeah, at this point. Yes, to ring the bell and signal the end of the day. We love the Time Grappler. Yeah, we love the Time Grappler here on Andorx. As you should. Mm -hmm. I love B2Emo. I know. And this is such a little... heartbreaking scene between b and and brasso as as brasso looks over marva's empty bed and turns to b and tells him it's time to go but i'm charging b says as he

1:08:49 cowers in his little dog bed and the bed is the bed is so perfect it's just yeah it's it's so adorable i just love that little bed it's such a perfect thing yeah I love the way they make B2 moves. He's so emotive of a character with just little movements. He's a dog. As someone who's owned dogs, who has four cats, seeing an animal just want you to stay with them. They just captured that perfectly in B2's performance.

1:09:27 My dog Hera, named after Syndulla, is a rescue. And, you know, she's still very timid and getting used to her surroundings. And she will a lot of the time, like, find a dark corner to kind of sit in and just observe things. And so as, like, Brasso turns out the lights and you just see... The only light left in the room is Bea's glowing eye in the corner. It really reminded me of her, seeing her there. He just tells Bea, I know you've just been in there charging all day, but Bea can't believe it. Brasso tells Bea, she's not here, Bea. She's in the stone now.

1:10:12 She's on her way, but Bea wants to stay and make sure. But he trails off before he says whether he's waiting for Marva or for Cassian. And either way, Brasso refuses to leave Bea here alone. She wouldn't want that. And then Bea kind of squishes up and down like an accordion as he proposes, you could stay. and B stares at Brasso for so long until Brasso finally relents and sighs and says, all right, fine, but only for tonight. And then hearing that, all of a sudden B has all this energy and he chirps up and he practically bounces out of his charging bed as he rolls up to Brasso like a happy little puppy for their sleepover. Poor little being with two emo eyebrows, you. It also reminded me of the

1:11:08 end of The Princess Bride. He's like, Grandpa, can you just read me one more story? As you wish. Yeah. Yeah. And I love how in the Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire book, there's a lot of talk about how does society feel about droids, right? And here we see that on Ferex, or at least in the Marva household, maybe unique among...

1:11:33 the entire galaxy B is a member of this family. B is as important to this family as Marva and Cassian are that like, even now that Marva is gone. Brasso is here taking care of B in the same way he was taking care of Marva. And yes, he's maybe rolling his eyes a little bit more than he would when Marva had some, you know, requirement that needed to be done or, you know, refused to kind of budge stubbornly. But I think it's really like touching how important B is to Brasso and part of why I think B speaks to us as fans. Yeah, I'm glad he got a happy ending, even though I felt like I'm still. bummed about brasso but it's so sad that b kind of never gets to see andor again yeah right like but at the

1:12:26 very least like you know they really did send him to a farm upstate yes but you know at the very least he does get to be there for cassian's kid right like he's gonna get to be there to to see you know the young andor grow up hopefully the last we see of him he's he's spinning around and and as energetic as we've ever seen him so i like to think that even though he doesn't get to see cassian again he will get to see his son you know grow up and and become the man that his father would hopefully be proud of yeah it was up to me but i think hopefully it happens that like i think the next generation of star wars writers i think exploring the relationship between droids and humans it's such a fertile

1:13:11 ground to be exploring especially as we deal with the ai stuff of what a relationship with these things are and what do we how do we view these things it's such a thing it's like a third rail that i feel like it's existed amongst star wars media and i'm excited to see if that's something that people can start opening up and unpacking a little bit it might be impossible to sort of tie together a very incoherent wikipedia page of how people treat these things but i think it's a very interesting vein to start tapping into yeah it's a it's complex because it's like the rules are sort of like were established very early on are sort of loosey -goosey whereas just like some are treated more like this so it's

1:13:42 like i'm curious to see because how they uh how they explore it but like yeah because some are pets some are you know friends some are like considered actual people but like the story is basically told through r2d2's eyes so and so there's a weird sort of dichotomy there yeah like the implication being that like r2 is like the most hyper like conversational person even though he's beeping and blooping like he's he is as conversational as anybody else in that movie yeah yeah then you but also you hit like weird like perceptions of like slaves so like some people treat them like friends some treat them like animals like it's it's a it might be too dark for star wars to explore but i think it's an interesting place to explore i mean we

1:14:19 got to see like the droid gatra in mando and grogu for like a little bit and like the implications of that of this like mercenary droid network that is you know survived beyond the clone wars what kind of personhood do they have what kind of you know action are they able to take independently are all really interesting ways to to explore that and i am just praying that the end of that movie did not kill all of them so that they still exist as a force to be explored yeah i think there's something i think there's something that like i think there's something that like the longer that these robots survive without being reset the more personality they gain i think there's something there of b2 is like b2 was

1:15:06 on like they're on marva's rebel ships like she was he was at one point a very young active robot who was very useful in these places and he's retired to this but at some point he was a he was a cocky little droid himself yeah and i also like the idea that like even like with r2d2 like you really don't know how old he is like i kind of like the idea that he could be a very old droid and he's seen a lot and he remembers it all i'm sure there are reasons why i would love to see like where he was before We meet him in Phantom Menace because I feel like there's some really interesting implications. So yeah. R2 D2 is the godhead that's existed throughout.

1:15:44 It's always existed. He will always exist. Exactly. He's seen all. If we just listened to R2, I think Palpatine would not have returned. I think R2 could have fixed it. But yeah. But he was asleep because he was sad. Yeah. Just to wrap up our seven minutes, we find Blix to a blurry camera lens. She's leaning her head on a wall, and the words of Dr. Gorse echoes in her head. They make a sound as they die, a sort of choral, agonized bleeding. If you're having difficult speaking, just shake your head. She snaps back into focus just before Imperial Lieutenant Mervyn Kasax, speaking of good Star Wars names. Bix refuses to turn around as Kasax asks if Bix would like to join him. It wasn't so much a question as

1:16:27 we immediately see him leading her down a hallway. She tries to push back, but she's far too weak. They enter a mysterious room, but the guard presses a button and the door closes. And we get the Godfather ending. And we won't know what happened inside because that's the end of our seven minutes. So see everybody next week. Bye, everybody. The end. Yeah. This scene feels like a little out of step with what we've seen in other parts.

1:16:50 I feel like we don't usually get that kind of flashback narrator thing. And it feels like a way of the writers to... kind of just remind us of what's going on with Bix, right? And it's really like subtly done. And I think I never would have kind of picked up on how unlike other parts of the show it is if we weren't kind of going through everything one minute at a time.

1:17:12 Yeah, it's a little, like, it reminds you what the stakes are, essentially. Like, I think where you're now, you're closing in on the endgame of everything. So, like, you understand now that, like, he's free, Marva's dead, people are watching him, and also Bix needs to be saved. I'm also just glad they got together because good taste, Bix. To your point, Rusty, and I think, like, to shout out the director of this episode, Benjamin Caron, I think earlier in the episode, we had that sort of, like, impressionistic. view of the calf cup above b2's head and now we're getting this sort of like very like very star wars of like someone hearing someone's voice i guess we that's not true i guess star wars has a lot

1:17:51 of people talking people's heads but it's rare for that to be a trauma not the force yeah exactly like and the way that Bix moves in this. She can barely stand. She is truly a husk of her former self. And those words are the only thing that are kind of going through her head now. Yeah. She's been through it. If we started with the most fun, wacky thing, this is the most depressing thing. Yeah. And that's the beauty of Star Wars, right? That those two things can coexist within seven minutes of each other. Mm -hmm. God, I love Star Wars. Of all the things for her to remember, it's not that she remembers. It's not just the story of the aliens. It's like, if you can't understand me, just shake your head. It's

1:18:36 the instruction that sticks with her as much of the banality of that instruction. If you're struggling, just let me know. Yeah. But yeah, that's the end of our seven minutes here, Adam. What an epic seven minutes. Every seven minutes has epic seven minutes, which is why it's great. Exactly. Do you have any final thoughts or anything that we just like didn't get to touch on either in this episode or what's to come or whatever?

1:19:02 Well, I think what's just overall what Andor represents to me is a masterful understanding of what one can do within a franchise, whether that be Star Wars or otherwise. I think specifically with Andor, specifically with Star Wars, what makes it feel so timeless and... relevant and I think will continue to be timeless and relevant is because Star Wars is set a long time ago on a galaxy far, far away. Spoilers is the fact that like with Star Trek, with Marvel, with DC, with almost every other franchise, there is some connection to Earth. There's always going to be like. Whether it be Marvel or DC, it's this alternate present. If it's Star Wars, it's always our future history. If it's Stargate, it's sort

1:19:50 of like tangential. If it's Battlestar Galactica, it's our past. With Star Wars in a similar way, like Lord of the Rings or something like that, because it's set aside in a completely different galaxy, Gilroy understood you could tell stories about not just now, but the past. past, the future, any point, things that feel relevant forever.

1:20:13 And I think what the biggest lesson I've taken from the show as a writer of Star Wars is that I can speak to the present moment anytime. And also in other themes, whether they be deeply personal or deeply political or just societal, there's so many things one can do within. this galaxy far far away because it's it looks like us it feels like us but it feels completely different you know the speech that mon mothma gives in season two the speech that luthen gives everything feels of right now even though it was written years before anything that we're going through right now happened and or just represents again what one can do with Star Wars that isn't always just, that actually goes back to the original

1:21:04 core of Star Wars. Your earlier question, like it's embarrassed of being Star Wars. You have to remember A New Hope was a treatise against the Vietnam War. It is making us identify and empathize with the Viet Cong by casting them as Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, and Chewbacca. Like that is what the purpose of that film was. many degrees it was also an homage to the old movie serials it was also an homage to like the old westerns and samurai films etc etc but ultimately it was you know lucas speaking out against this vietnam war the prequels were about the rise of like how power is handed over you know by democracies to authoritarianism it was about george w bush it was about these things

1:21:57 it was george wilkinson's loose change exactly but it's like so with andor and folks who say like it's embarrassed to be star wars i don't know how one can be embarrassed to be star wars when star wars from its very beginnings was very political and very speaking to the writers creators personal you know beliefs um and using that backdrop as a way to to speak to the the audience about what they feel is important so yeah and there's pure star wars i don't know if this is very stupid or very profound but like it's the name it's as much star as it is wars and that is like that is what makes it distinct as your comparison to marvel or star trek it's that war is such a human conflict it is us fighting against each

1:22:46 other and that is always going to find things that are what causes war and what war does to people and war the threat of war does to the psyche is always going to be a thing that repeats because the thing we keep doing to each other versus like secret wars is not really a war it's like a big battle world you can call it a war it's not really a war Civil war is not really a war, but these are actual wars and you're always going to have to deal with the implications of war. And it's something you always do on ourselves.

1:23:11 It's not a supernatural thing attacking us. Yeah. And it's like to that point, like you could argue that Captain America Civil War, whether that be in the comics or in the movie, it's like it is about, you know, the role the state should have in sort of. you know controlling weapons of mass destruction and things like that like or like in surveillance and like how control people's bodies but the problem with captain marissa war especially in the films is that like it's still connected to like our present day so it's like some of the like present day like it gets a little wonky it doesn't always like it doesn't stand up because like well that's not true anymore where you have a scene like again mon mothma speech about the rise of authoritarianism

1:23:54 that's true for that universe but because it's true for this sort of like something that's not connected to us, it just feels relevant everywhere. It's never going to be just like, oh, this is an American thing. This can be a European thing. This can be a South African thing, an Egyptian thing. This can be a Russian thing. This can be an Australian thing. This can be a Thai or a Singaporean or Brazilian or Argentinian or Mexican or American. It can be anything because it's not connected to right now or our world.

1:24:26 And we're good, guys. Part of the premise of this podcast is that there's going to be so many horrific things that happen in the next few years that we're going to find comparisons in Andor too. And it's to the strength of the material. We don't know what those bad things are yet, but they will happen. And looking ahead at that, we would love to have you back. for season two is there anything that you would like to shoot your shot for and call out now uh for your glorious return to andorks i mean i'm i think it's gonna be i mean i feel like everyone's gonna be fighting for monmouth in the speech it has i'm looking over the numbers now i do see like three other people trying to get it we have equal claims

1:25:07 for the speech and the dance i think like those are the two competing Yeah. That or like the Gorman Massacre. I think that's something that I could I talk about a lot. You know, there's a lot of I'll talk about Andorra ever. Just whatever. We'll hold you to that. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to hold you to that for sure. And if people want to hear more about, you know, your work and just, you know, follow everything you're doing, where can people find you and what do you got to plug?

1:25:36 So you can follow me on Instagram, BlueSky, at AdamLenzGarcia on basically all platforms. You can go to my website, AdamLenzGarcia .com, which needs to be updated badly. I have a new audio drama coming out from Big Finish, The Legacy of Zorro. So if you love the original Mask of Zorro and the sequel, The Legends of Zorro, this is a third in a non -existent trilogy, continuing the story of Antonio Banderas' Alejandro Murrieta.

1:26:04 It is speaking to our present moment. I actually just got an email about it, literally as we're talking. And it is very much about our present moment. The main character is a Mexican fighting against a resurgent Confederates five years after the Civil War. You can pick up from a certain point of view, Return of the Jedi, which has my story, the veteran with Dexter Jester at any of your favorite booksellers. I think it's out in paperback now. You can listen to the audio drama, the audio book on all. or your favorite whatever one listens to audio books on. There's also The Green Llama, which is a Buddhist superhero from the 1940s. I have a few books in that series, but if you want to just listen to something for

1:26:45 free on your favorite podcaster, there is The Green Llama. That's one L, an eight episode audio drama that I self -funded and is a very, very... very much about the rise of authoritarianism here in the States and sort of fighting against it. And as was announced at New York Comic Con, I have a Han Solo and Lando Calrissian graphic novel coming out from Mad Cave. Holy shit. And that is currently titled Black Sun Eclipse. And it is about Han and Lando on an adventure on a new planet called Nath Huantor. And yeah. I'm very, very excited about it. I've been seeing the artwork coming from Liana Kangas, who's the artist, and they're just doing some incredible work. And yeah, it's going to be exciting. And

1:27:32 yeah, it's coming out, I think, in April of 2027. That's amazing. Well worth the wait to hear what your announcement was. Can you say anything about when it's set? What era of Han and Lando this is? Yes, it is set roughly two years after Solo. It's basically they're a bit younger. It's sort of during a period of time when they're having adventures all the time. And very much in the Gilroy aspect of my goal was to add more toys to the toy box. The only characters that are really like that, you know, are Han, Lando and Chewie and the Millennium Falcon. Everything else in that universe is either completely new to that story or it's like. pulling from legends like references but it's not like it's it is

1:28:20 meant to be like this is a perfect introduction to han and lando so you can give a kid like hey this is han and lando and like wow they're cool so um it's it's it's a really um it's gonna be cool will you be exploring the l3 dynamics at all or is that is that a no one day one day we will learn more maybe one day maybe one day no but it's uh yeah it's uh and i'll let you know that Sounds awesome. I cannot wait to get to read that. I think I speak for everybody that Han and Lando are cool as hell and I want to see more adventures with them. Let me tell you something. They are fun to write. Uh -huh. They were so much fun to write. They just bicker like an old married couple. It was great. Yeah, I

1:29:03 can't wait for y 'all to see it. It is absolutely a dream come true. Did you say when that might be coming out? Do you know yet? April 2027 is currently when it's scheduled to come out. Awesome. Well, everybody should go and pre -order that. Make sure you get it when it's fresh off the presses. Go to your stores and say, I want this.

1:29:25 I need 10 copies. Just as many copies. Yeah. Well, I cannot wait to read that. Thank you so much, Adam, for joining us today. This was a true pleasure and it was well worth the wait. Thank you all for listening. Be sure to rate and review the show on your podcast platform of choice. All you got to do is go on there and give us five stars and say podcast good. That's it, podcast good. That's literally it. That's it. Check out our Patreon at patreon .com slash andorkspod where for just five credits a month, you'll get our full bonus episodes, including...

1:30:10 A very special bonus episode coming out on Wednesday, where we're doing our Glupshido draft, where we will be drafting alongside past guest Joey Clift and our friend Julie Fivish. We're going to be drafting our favorite Glupshidos and assembling a team to go on the Rogue One mission on Scarif, which is going to be really fun. I am very much looking forward to that. I'm getting very angry at various points. I'm going to just see what's the most obscure character I could pull, who I do love and am excited to get to, you know, wax poetic about. So check out our Patreon, patreon .com slash andorkspod to get that. Follow the show on social media at andorkspod. Send in your questions about the show to andorkspod at gmail

1:31:01 .com. And yeah, we'll see you next Sunday for... Part three of Daughter of Ferex. Later, dorks. Bye, dorks.