Episode #360: The Rundown #3 (Bionic knees, Raycin beats the boys, feats of strength, and more!)

0:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Barbell Medicine podcast where we bring modern medicine to strength conditioning and strength conditioning to modern medicine. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Dr. Jordan Faganbaum, and this is the third edition of The Run Down, where we catch you up on latest news and health and fitness, also science, technology sports and politics.

0:16 [SPEAKER_01]: On the other end of the line is the second most handsome doctor in North America, Dr. Austin Baraki. [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on man? [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, doing well, continuing to settle into the new place, got some productive training in this week. [SPEAKER_00]: Things are [SPEAKER_00]: feeling good.

0:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So I assume you're feeling poorly, but I'll tell you. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Look, it's time. [SPEAKER_01]: It's the balance of power. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel fine. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So far, knock on wood. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not superstitious. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just a little stitious.

0:43 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm excited for this episode. [SPEAKER_01]: Got a lot of cool stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: Some new bionic knee parts. [SPEAKER_01]: We've got some politics to do with RFK. [SPEAKER_01]: Junior. [SPEAKER_01]: We've got some impressive feet of strength that we'll probably trigger some folks.

0:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully. [SPEAKER_00]: That's do you know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but before we get into that, a few announcements, big news this week. [SPEAKER_01]: We are having a coaching sale now. [SPEAKER_01]: If you've been a barbell medicine follower, you are familiar with our stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this never happens.

1:11 [SPEAKER_01]: We literally do only once a year over like Black Friday, Cyber Monday. [SPEAKER_01]: So in November, we're doing one here in the summer. [SPEAKER_01]: It starts August eleven. [SPEAKER_01]: And it goes till August, eighteen. [SPEAKER_01]: It applies to all new coaching packages. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's for both health and performance and pain and rehab.

1:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You get ten percent off. [SPEAKER_01]: You can use the code summer fit to check out directly off the website or you can email us support at barballmedicine.com when you just set up. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's ten percent off all new coaching packages. [SPEAKER_01]: And we never do this. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're on the fence about coaching, [SPEAKER_01]: Now's the time.

1:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, we did just release our second generation of our low fatigue template. [SPEAKER_01]: This has four new programs. [SPEAKER_01]: It previously was power lifting only strength only and now we've have power lifting power building and a general strengthening program to get four programs.

1:53 [SPEAKER_01]: They're all sixteen weeks long. [SPEAKER_01]: The program has been revised. [SPEAKER_01]: It's now more adaptive to the individual to make sure that they get the correct training load. [SPEAKER_01]: The conditioning work has also been massively overhauled and we've expanded the e-book that accompanies the the program so used to be about eighty something pages now it's over hundred and ten pages and we discuss hypertrophy conditioning programming design troubleshooting and more so if you're looking for a book on like how to program that's what we have right now [SPEAKER_01]: And last but not least, we do still have our upcoming seminar in San Antonio.

2:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a health and performance seminar with myself, Dr. Barack, Leo Ludz, Tom Capitelli. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be at Sal's gym in San Antonio. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be training together on Friday night. [SPEAKER_01]: Believe there's a barbecue on Saturday. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I just got that email.

2:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're just trying to spend some more time with you guys, tickets are going fairly quickly. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's linked in the show notes below. [SPEAKER_01]: We'd love to see there today in person seminar. [SPEAKER_01]: Santa Antonio, catch the fever. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe don't catch the fever.

2:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe don't catch a fever. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe don't catch a fever. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, I'm using that. [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, ingest. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to start off this third episode of the rundown with a bionic knee. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Did I don't know.

3:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you see this at all? [SPEAKER_01]: I did not. [SPEAKER_01]: It just came out of MIT. [SPEAKER_01]: These researchers have developed a new bionic knee that can help people with above the knee, amputations, walk faster, climb stairs, and navigate obstacles better than they could do with their traditional prosthesis.

3:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, in the link that I put in the show notes below, there's actually a pretty cool embedded gif where it's a person with a full on prosthetic. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't look like any prosthetic. [SPEAKER_01]: I think most people have ever seen because it kind of looks like [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for lack of a better description, like imagine what Terminator T-Too's leg looked like.

3:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks, and this person's like dodging obstacles on a movie on a treadmill, like all their process. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which is super impressive. [SPEAKER_01]: So with traditional amputation, whether it's below the knee or above the knee, the opposing muscles that take turns, stretching, relaxing, contracting are usually severed.

3:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So the agonist antagonist relationships disrupted. [SPEAKER_01]: makes it very difficult for the brain and the nervous system to sense the position of the muscles, how fast they're moving, and subsequently smooth it out for better coordination. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just really hard to do.

4:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, a new surgical approach is called this agonist antagonist, myonural interface, AMI, basically connects agonist and antagonist muscles back together in the what's left of the limb. [SPEAKER_01]: Previously, this was only done in below the knee and now they're doing it above the knee.

4:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And this research group added this kind of robotic controller. [SPEAKER_01]: So basically they put it a titanium rod in the femur. [SPEAKER_01]: And it has sixteen wires that go to sensors in the muscles of the leg that are still there. [SPEAKER_01]: And this robot basically integrates all this information and calculates the torque and forces necessary to move the prosthesis the way the user wants it to move.

4:46 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all above our pay grade. [SPEAKER_01]: But when I saw this video, it's one of those things like seeing is believing, right? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, okay, look at it. [SPEAKER_01]: Now I link the paper from science. [SPEAKER_01]: They talk about this and it's linked to other papers.

4:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can really go down the rabbit hole if you want, but watch the video. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, pretty impressive stuff, especially from what I've seen from people with this type of prosthesis before. [SPEAKER_01]: I can only imagine the cost of what this is right now, but you know, some time from now, just like all technology, it's probably going to become more accessible, at least I hope.

5:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you click on the link? [SPEAKER_01]: Did you hey, quick, quick, quick, quick. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is really remarkable. [SPEAKER_00]: I also seeing where he's like kicking some [SPEAKER_00]: exercise balls around the level of coordination that you're seeing out of this, I guess they're calling it a bionic knee is quite impressive.

5:34 [SPEAKER_00]: That is just a level of complexity that I struggle to even wrap my mind around how people are able to figure this out and make it work even to this level of accuracy and precision. [SPEAKER_00]: It's obviously not so smoothly coordinated to the point where you're like, oh, I can barely even tell that that's not a human limb.

5:50 [SPEAKER_00]: There's obviously still some kind of clunkiness about it that I imagine would improve with [SPEAKER_00]: Time, refining the technology, the human themselves getting used to this thing and I wouldn't be surprised if they try to bake in some sort of like AI based functionality into these little robots to, you know, better integrate these these systems.

6:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'm with you. [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is really remarkable. [SPEAKER_00]: It builds well for the future of [SPEAKER_00]: I guess physical medicine and rehabilitation for these kind of things in the future. [SPEAKER_00]: Both due to traumatic reasons and really at all of the different types of medical reasons why people can might undergo these types of procedures to try to maintain as much functionality as possible over time.

6:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It does remind me of not exactly the same thing, but another area that I'm currently aware of in the [SPEAKER_00]: rehabilitation space where people are also integrating kind of AI based kind of rehab coaches into like home exercise devices to try to improve both adherence to these home exercise programs but also outcomes.

6:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So like gamification of like the rehab exercises being like kind of autonomously coached by the AI tool to get people putting out more force or power output or whatever the case is because [SPEAKER_00]: doing that from the standpoint of a rehab professional a person who maybe needs to come to your house and guide you through this is time consuming and expensive and so these sorts of things can also facilitate potentially better outcomes at a lower cost.

7:24 [SPEAKER_00]: This bionic new thing I don't imagine is currently at a lower cost to your point. [SPEAKER_00]: It'll probably come down over time. [SPEAKER_00]: The only, I guess, concern that I can think of at the moment is just from the medical side of things, complications of this sort of thing. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I see a fair amount of precarious procedural complications or complications of technology and devices and implants and things like that in the patients that I work with.

7:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also this technology just looks so damn complex that I suspect it is, you know, it's going to break in unforeseeable ways and the kind of [SPEAKER_00]: repair maintenance long term, you know, is this something that you can live and function with for like decades? [SPEAKER_00]: What's that going to even look like?

8:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, it's just so early that nobody will have an answer to that, but those are some of the things I'm thinking about moving forward. [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, you're overlooking two of the most likely doomsday scenarios. [SPEAKER_01]: One actually is in a doomsday scenario. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just more would be more interesting, I think.

8:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Socially, okay, but the first one, what if aliens are able to overtake, you know, they say, or AI gains, you know, autonomous function. [SPEAKER_01]: You have an autonomously functioning limb that takes out the human host. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and then it like, you know, makes you ambulate towards the center.

8:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh, no, I can't stop. [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, that's, you know, terrifying. [SPEAKER_01]: Second thing is maybe a little more interesting, perhaps even more likely. [SPEAKER_01]: You familiar with, uh, was Oscar Pistorius. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Like Blade Runner.

8:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Couldn't compete in the Olympics, right? [SPEAKER_01]: That was the whole thing. [SPEAKER_01]: What if this stuff gets so good? [SPEAKER_01]: So good that whether it's a below in the amputation above any amputation or even like in general, something congenital, they get this press.

9:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, it's so good that they can kick a soccer ball way faster than anybody or like, you know, I don't know at that point. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, so is this like, [SPEAKER_01]: performance enhancing equipment. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just, I don't know, like I've had some mixed feelings when the pasturious case was brought before the court for arbitration and sport and for the IOC.

9:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know kind of interesting anyway. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think the, you know, for this sort of bionic knee slash lower extremity, there is probably any known or measurable like maximum force production capacity of these units. [SPEAKER_00]: And as once that force capacity exceeds that of what humans are capable of, then you'll know where it like, you know, exoskeletal.

9:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, athlete era. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah upgrades trying to get my upgrades bro. [SPEAKER_01]: There you go nice all right next thing here on the run-down now look as a person who's been involved in motorcycles and specifically motorcross for decades now you knew it some point. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well look this made national news so it's not just my own like pet interest this made national news was on ESPN NBC I know reported on this et cetera [SPEAKER_01]: So this past week marked the forty-fourth running of the American Motorcycle Association, the AMA's Amateur National Motorcross Championship.

10:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell every year at Loretta Lens Ranch just outside in Asheville, Tennessee. [SPEAKER_01]: I actually went there, competed in two thousand three. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do very well. [SPEAKER_01]: But just making it there was cool with my dad. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, memories and such. [SPEAKER_01]: The biggest amateur race in the world, it's Uber competitive.

10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very competitive. [SPEAKER_01]: So just making it to the ranch is a big deal. [SPEAKER_01]: Let alone winning. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy, kind of set your kind of set yourself up for not only support as far as from teams and stuff like that, but actually just to make it. [SPEAKER_01]: So they have classes separated based on age.

10:49 [SPEAKER_01]: There's age group classes also skill. [SPEAKER_01]: So there's like a pro division intermediate division. [SPEAKER_01]: et cetera, et cetera, and displacement of the motor. [SPEAKER_01]: So same thing for most motor sports. [SPEAKER_01]: However, there are only two classes dedicated to women.

11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: There's an open women's class and then there's a girls class, eleven to sixteen years old. [SPEAKER_01]: So not terribly well represented, but there's there's still an opportunity to compete. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know when those women's classes were established? [SPEAKER_01]: I know that both of those classes were there when I was there.

11:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, really, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So I can't say that I've ever even seen like a women's motor cross race like on TV in the same way that [SPEAKER_00]: and might see men's races. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what your thoughts are on any of that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll get to that. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, to that.

11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So, but history was made this year, however, when eleven year old, race in Kyler, which is out of Florida, beat all of the boys in the sixty five cc, ten to eleven year total class. [SPEAKER_01]: So, sixty five cc's the size and the motor, these, the little mini bike, but it is, it does have a clutch, and you have to shift it in everything else.

11:42 [SPEAKER_01]: These people fly on these things. [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, realize that now is a vet rider. [SPEAKER_01]: When I think I'm going pretty well, you know, I was fairly competitive back in the day, and I think, you know, I'm doing the jumps and out there for a while. [SPEAKER_01]: And then one of these little rippers just goes past me and I'm like, boy, I got to hang it up.

12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: In any case, this has never happened before. [SPEAKER_01]: never happened before. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that people haven't tried. [SPEAKER_01]: There have been girls that have made the open division and done well. [SPEAKER_01]: And women who've done it some of the older age, uh, uh, well, older age division classes, but they've never won.

12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Which brings me to my question. [SPEAKER_01]: One, let's celebrate race in Kyler. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if your name's racing, [SPEAKER_01]: You got to be funny. [SPEAKER_01]: You were literally, yeah, you were born for this. [SPEAKER_01]: But why is this never happened before? [SPEAKER_01]: Especially in these age groups, these pre-pubescent age groups.

12:32 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that like up until the age of around ten, girls and boys have similar bodies. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, girls are a little taller, even. [SPEAKER_01]: They do have a little more body fat at that age. [SPEAKER_01]: But most athletic traits are nearly indistinguishable in boys and girls at that age, except for throwing.

12:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But for example, like top running speed is almost identical, view two max stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: All basically the same. [SPEAKER_01]: until puberty, right, at that point, things take off. [SPEAKER_01]: And most of that is due to this SRY gene. [SPEAKER_01]: This is basically the sex determining region of why is what it stands for.

13:02 [SPEAKER_01]: If there was an athlete gene athletic gene, it would be the SRY gene. [SPEAKER_01]: It's all in the white chromosome. [SPEAKER_01]: Always have an XY, generous speaking, women X, X. [SPEAKER_01]: But we all begin life as females. [SPEAKER_01]: For like our first six weeks in utero, we're all effectively female.

13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: At week six, yeah, if you get exposed to testosterone, a lot of it in utero, the SRY gene signals a bunch of other stuff, get testicles that form and inside them, the late excels that ultimately produce testosterone. [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, that's kind of how we differentiate between boys and girls in the womb.

13:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So we know that boys even before puberty are better at throwing. [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty well established. [SPEAKER_01]: There's like three standard deviations apart from boys and girls from like this beginning when they can throw even through puberty and beyond. [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously a woman girl who is trained and throwing is going to be better than an untrained man, but that's not really what we're talking about here.

13:57 [SPEAKER_01]: All else being equal, boys tend to throw for it further. [SPEAKER_01]: There's also I didn't know this. [SPEAKER_01]: Some evidence showing that boys are better at visually tracking and targeting things. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I do wonder, is there something about boys that makes them better at motorcross than women?

14:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is this just an artifact of the opportunity to participate? [SPEAKER_01]: Just like a social kind of determinant of competitiveness or something like that? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, these things are super messy and difficult to pull apart. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's part of why I asked the question earlier, because we've looked at an example of other sports like when they were established, we've talked before about like when weightlifting was established for men versus women in the Olympics was like hugely, you know, separated in time.

14:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't remember those years off the top of your head. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're listening, I'll pose it to the audience. [SPEAKER_01]: So just right now and you're on it. [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, quick question. [SPEAKER_01]: When was women? [SPEAKER_01]: When did women's Olympic weightlifting make it into Olympics?

14:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll pause. [SPEAKER_01]: If you said the year two thousand, you'd be right. [SPEAKER_01]: If you said anytime before that despite men being in multiple, I mean, we're talking about way back in Olympic history for men to have this opportunity to participate in the Olympics. [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't even until two thousand.

15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, with women's motor just to answer your questions, I think this will be useful for your answer. [SPEAKER_01]: Women's professional motorcross has been [SPEAKER_01]: very small and very an under supported and there's been less opportunity for women to participate at that level that said there's also not a lot of women who otherwise would participate.

15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a chicken egg thing. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: That's obviously more complicated. [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, going, growing up in motorcross, going to a lot of the national races, you see if, early, what I would consider strong contingent of women, particularly, or mostly girls, right?

15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like kind of up until high school age and then it really starts to fall off. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't know if that's because there's really no where for them to go, like, clap, like class wise to participate. [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, like at the national level and at that point, [SPEAKER_01]: That's a different game than competing locally where it's like, oh, I showed up my local track and there was these other girls that I race against.

16:04 [SPEAKER_01]: They're all they've all quit or like didn't exist in the first place. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if this is like an artifact of social determinants like participation opportunity or if there's like, hmm, some like male aggressiveness or like visual track. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: To some extent, it feels like some of these things might feed into one another.

16:22 [SPEAKER_00]: As far as the social opportunities to participate, it feels like there's multiple levels to that. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, is there a league where you can go and do this at all? [SPEAKER_00]: But then there's also, I suspect that this varies regionally across the country. [SPEAKER_00]: Some places that are much more into motor sports like where you hail from.

16:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And other places in the country where that's way less of a thing. [SPEAKER_00]: And other sports and activities might tend to predominate. [SPEAKER_00]: And then lastly, there's probably some degree of [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like this bio and social interaction here of like these to the extent that these biological characteristics or traits impact the you know performance potential of someone in these sports that itself might impact the demand for this for a given demographic right so if there is some sort of [SPEAKER_00]: Advantage for the boys or disadvantage for the girls.

17:10 [SPEAKER_00]: That would then impact how much of a demand is there for women's motorcross and then how likely is there based on that demand for someone to establish a league where they can come and compete. [SPEAKER_00]: So these things all to some extent seem like they might feed into one another until you reach some just like overall critical mass of recognition of the sport or interest in the sport where it's like we got enough people who would actually bother to do this and then from there might snowball.

17:32 [SPEAKER_00]: into a much bigger thing. [SPEAKER_00]: I suspect that that's the case for a lot of different sports. [SPEAKER_01]: You need some like critical mass of just like potentially interested participants before somebody even bothers to set up a competitive arena for you to create the incentives that otherwise would drive further development like there's no like the the path from like five year old girl motorcross you know enthusiast to pro is not well established right it's just like tough to do yeah I don't know I [SPEAKER_01]: You know what's interesting to me about motor crosses that when you see the top level performers, you know, in the pro ranks, generally speaking, there's somewhere between like twenty and twenty five.

18:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He's starting a little older than that. [SPEAKER_01]: People are like, hmm, when you're retiring, which seems weird to say to like a twenty six twenty seven year old, but if you're thirty and you're still racing, you are definitively an elder statesman, you're that class pretty much. [SPEAKER_01]: But the best performers aren't like [SPEAKER_01]: big, hulking, you know, super strong.

18:31 [SPEAKER_01]: They're strong because they're twenty-four-year-old dudes, you know, but it's not like, oh, gaining ten pounds of muscle mass is gonna make you better on the bike. [SPEAKER_01]: It's mostly skill-related and sure the cardiovascular demands, the beauty max crimes are relatively high, but mostly skill.

18:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very similar to swimming in that, like, a good swimmer, like an elite level swimmer had been retired in their VO two maxes in the tank. [SPEAKER_01]: It's still gonna beat, like the triathlete, it goes like a not a good swimmer, but has a crazy high VO two max. [SPEAKER_01]: So I do, I just wonder, I'm like, it's not a strength thing.

19:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the cardiovascular requirements can be developed by women. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm trying to think, like, is this like, again, I go back to aggressiveness, visual tracking, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: But it also, it seems to me right now, like the biggest driver this has to just be opportunity and like in general interest.

19:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, look, well, not the many girls do this. [SPEAKER_01]: There's not going to be many girls do in this. [SPEAKER_01]: And so just the sample size is too low to get something like this. [SPEAKER_01]: Why does so dang historic? [SPEAKER_01]: Good job, Jason. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, super, super interesting kind of concept.

19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And then even to look at a different sport that has I would say a developed and maybe even arguably peaked and gone into decline on a shorter time frame is CrossFit. [SPEAKER_00]: So like you think about the level of performance that was being put up by all the athletes in general and certainly men versus women like at the first ever CrossFit Games.

19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can trust that to where where people are now, where like a Lorraine, my wife still pays attention to the CrossFit Games, just out of interest and [SPEAKER_00]: They just happened this past week and yeah and Tia Claire wins and they're interviewing her and they're like talking her about her training and she's like yeah, I just do what the boys do and then aim for a little bit more and it's like well you have selected yourself into like an ultra elite category and that's why you keep winning year after year and no one else is even close to you [SPEAKER_00]: But the sport had to attract enough people to even get in before you can start to identify those folks who maybe have certain levels, traits or talents or biological gifts if you want to think of it that way to let them rise to the top.

20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, they'll never come to attention and no one will ever know any different. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll be very curious to see what happens with this particular athlete's career like so now after she wins. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she has identified herself. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like how do you do next year?

20:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Because there's another class. [SPEAKER_01]: The next one, a jump is another displacement size up and like does she keep doing this well? [SPEAKER_01]: And if so, like, I would be remarkable and maybe that does pave the path. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't be curious. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see.

20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, back here on the rundown, third episode, we're going to talk about impressive feats of strength. [SPEAKER_01]: Got three of them here. [SPEAKER_01]: First off, we'll start with Thor's deadlift. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see this? [SPEAKER_01]: I did. [SPEAKER_01]: Five hundred and five kilograms deadlift.

21:11 [SPEAKER_01]: That's one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds. [SPEAKER_01]: You do not need to adjust your head set. [SPEAKER_01]: That is one thousand one hundred thirteen pounds. [SPEAKER_01]: Breaking his previous record of one thousand one hundred and four pounds that he set five years ago back in two thousand twenty.

21:27 [SPEAKER_01]: crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, just before we discuss this, the equipment that he uses is important for the comparison I'm going to ask you about. [SPEAKER_01]: He had a double ply deadlift suit. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you're not familiar with powerlifting, what a deadlift suit is. [SPEAKER_01]: What does double ply?

21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You're like toilet paper doesn't make it. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: Look, equipped powerlifting. [SPEAKER_01]: is where you get to use assisted equipment. [SPEAKER_01]: So like a squat suit, for example, it stores mechanical energy as you descend knee wraps, do the same thing store mechanical energy as you load the actual material and then as you go down in a squat, for example, and then on the way up, it helps you with more weight.

22:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a completely different experience. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like almost a completely different sport except for your still using a barbell, but in any case, the double ply deadlift suit is two layers of material. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why the call it double ply. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't speak to how it works.

22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: because I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know that anybody really knows. [SPEAKER_01]: It's more in the squat you tend to get more out of the suits than you do in the deadlift, but I assume there's some sort of assistance otherwise they wouldn't use it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also using figure eight straps.

22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So wrist straps, listeners may be more familiar with a regular wrist strap that you use to wrap around a dumbbell or a barbell. [SPEAKER_01]: Figure eight straps are usually a little bit longer, a more robust, that tends to set the bar a little bit lower in your hand. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, this is an important for comparison purposes.

22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: He's using a Texas deadlift bar, which I appreciated that they used that and not the rogue elephant bar, which is like [SPEAKER_00]: extra long and thin to make it bendier. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the reason why the type of barbell matters one if it's a deadlift bar, which you can generally identify by lack of a center knurling.

23:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It also is a thinner diameter, a regular power bar is twenty nine millimeters in diameter, a deadlift bars twenty seven millimeters in diameter. [SPEAKER_01]: They also were a little bit longer and so it makes the bar deflect more or bend more before the plates leave the floor, which for some individuals that make some be able to lift more weight.

23:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get a lot out of a deadlift bar meaning that my regular deadlift with a stiff, you know, power bar is about the same as my deadlift bar deadlift, but. [SPEAKER_01]: Some people get a lot out of them, especially with straps. [SPEAKER_01]: But he did use calibrated plates, which I also appreciated, compared to Benny Magnus in thousand and eight or thousand three, whatever it was, which was no straps, no deadlift suit, but not calibrated plates.

23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: In any case, let's compare Thor's recent world record, one thousand one hundred thirteen pound deadlift with straps with a deadlift suit, with a deadlift bar, two Georgian powerletters, teamer, some cars a day. [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely mess it up. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: Respect the effort.

24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Respect the effort. [SPEAKER_01]: But at the age of twenty four, he deadlifted nine hundred and six pounds in the IPF, the International Powerlifting Federation. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's drug tested, no straps, stiff power lifting bars, twenty nine millimeters in diameter. [SPEAKER_01]: two hour away and drug tested, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and by the way, that same day, he squatted eight hundred fifty nine pounds and bench pressed five hundred thirty four pounds for a twenty three hundred pound total. [SPEAKER_01]: His total at twenty three hundred pounds was about a hundred pounds less than Thor's total. [SPEAKER_01]: that he also did, and he weighed about a hundred pounds less than Thor.

24:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So who's more impressive, Dr. Brocky, Thor or teamer? [SPEAKER_00]: The two of us opining on the relative impressiveness of these feats is kind of amusing to me. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think you make the point there at the end that Teamers total was about a hundred pounds less weighing a hundred pounds less under a much stricter conditions.

24:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that that's kind of where I might lean. [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting to, I don't know, it's not even like a thought experiment. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like imagining or wondering if you put four under those same competitive conditions, circumstances, would you be able to put up those same numbers?

25:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much he can currently squat. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like all I've ever seen him do is in the in the powerlifting realm. [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen lots of his deadlifts. [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't, I don't know if the top of my head like what his raw squat performance might be unassisted unequipped in that in that type of a setting.

25:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you have a sense of that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he squated. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe it's nine o'clock in the near apps, but in a regular single it when he did his his total, which but you know, no way in. [SPEAKER_01]: Right sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah with a squat bar, you know, it's different.

25:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a different set of [SPEAKER_00]: Right, that's why I'm trying to like, you know, come at it of like, if you put each of these guys in the other person circumstance, how close could they get to that type of performance? [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, they'd probably be kind of close.

26:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I think teamer though, weighing a hundred pounds less to do it, he's probably also quite a bit different in height. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what his height is off the top of my head either. [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I currently lean towards the IPF competitive conditions as the thing that's more impressive to put up that total.

26:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But then again, all these things are just absolute wild feats of human strength. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all these numbers don't make sense. [SPEAKER_01]: I know if you were listening to this and you're like eight, the numbers don't make sense because they're too heavy. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

26:25 [SPEAKER_01]: These people are far too strong. [SPEAKER_01]: It hurts my feelings personally, but with your thought experiment, it's like a bench racing kind of thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what if? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you put Thor in the IPF setting, he totals far less than his best total drug testing aside.

26:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just leave that that elephant in the room. [SPEAKER_01]: We just won't talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And then if you put team or [SPEAKER_01]: under the same circumstances, the stores. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that he totals that much more. [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?

26:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Not being well trained in that, you know, the technical things that change under equipped lifting and various other things that make it almost, you know, you know, people sometimes describe them as different sports. [SPEAKER_00]: And it might sound silly to say, when you're doing the same lifts, but there are significant technical differences between equipped and unequipped.

27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: lifting and under these different types of competitive kind of rules and circumstances that that do make them a little bit more difficult to compare directly than than it might initially seem. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll just say this obviously both individuals super strong and I'm super impressed with all of these attempts.

27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah full full props no he comes full props. [SPEAKER_01]: However, if instead of the we're breaking his own record, which is previously five hundred one kilos under, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: where in a deadlift suit, list straps, whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: If he instead said, I'm gonna do something different.

27:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna use a stiff bar. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna not use straps, and I'm gonna do it raw. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was able to deadlift nine hundred and ten pounds. [SPEAKER_01]: That way, I'd be like, dude, you're the king. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're using it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is just a throwback.

27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of our listeners probably are unfamiliar with Constantinoff because passed away, a number of years ago. [SPEAKER_01]: But he previously is on record saying that look under IPF settings, stiff bar calibrated plates to our way and the whole thing, drug testing aside. [SPEAKER_01]: You people can only deadlift for hundred kilos.

28:14 [SPEAKER_01]: That's it, eight, eight, eight, you know, and so we have an example. [SPEAKER_01]: Two couples, because hey, Zeus also deadlifted more than that. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was kind of one. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, these numbers don't make sense to you. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just like, Jordan, what do you talk about?

28:24 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of way. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm super impressed, but I would have been more impressed with just what would be more relatable is that deadlift. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, take this wraps off, take the suit off. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to use a deadlift bar, fine, I guess, but I would really want to stuff or just see, I'd be curious.

28:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it makes these kinds of comparisons easier. [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's kind of the thing in sport in general, you know, if [SPEAKER_00]: somebody set a new like swimming world record, but they were swimming in like a pool of different length, and they weren't swimming in water, but some like substance that had different like fluid properties, and I'm like, I don't know what that means.

29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That's part of why you know, like in swimming, my background as opposed to your motorcross, you know, the whole like super suit era was such a thing where all this like rapid technological advancement happened, you know, in the early two thousand, early to mid two thousands, and people started wearing higher and higher tech suits.

29:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And they started to get concerned about how much buoyancy is this providing and like, you know, all these records were getting smashed. [SPEAKER_00]: And so then they got for the most part banned. [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're like under much more strict set of circumstances, almost IPF like, you know, circumstances and rules around what you can wear to race.

29:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And sure enough, humans continue to rise to the occasion. [SPEAKER_00]: And just about all, if not all of the world records from that time, I think Rome, two thousand nine was the last time. [SPEAKER_00]: that they were really allowing competition. [SPEAKER_00]: Most of those records were gone because people have just kept getting better and better and ended up breaking, breaking them all anyway, even under the stricter circumstances.

29:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of an interesting way to come at it is these circumstances set the bounds for comparison and competition. [SPEAKER_00]: And then within those bounds, you just let the best rise to the top and over time people seem to keep finding ways to get better and better across all sorts of different sports, which is awesome to watch.

30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a lot of technological advancements across many different sports have been the principle or at least even a minority contribution to, you know, people breaking records. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that these are all technological advancements here, you know, for Thor and such, but we're just comparing two different efforts and it's challenging to do.

30:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'll prefer [SPEAKER_01]: Let's make it the same. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, probably not in our lifetime. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: The second impressive feat of strength is by Russ or he. [SPEAKER_01]: You sent this to me. [SPEAKER_01]: I was made aware of this crazy.

30:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So Russ or he just broke the ninety three kilo world record for the raw powerlifting total and also the squat. [SPEAKER_01]: So ninety three kilo classes my way class our way class. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, your old weight class when you're still, you know, an adult man. [SPEAKER_01]: Two hundred five pounds at the max, you can weigh.

30:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And while competing in the two thousand twenty five North American powerlifting Federation, Pan Am championships. [SPEAKER_01]: Russ, uh, he competed in the ninety three kilo class. [SPEAKER_01]: This is in Grand Cayman. [SPEAKER_01]: He squatted seven hundred eighty three pounds. [SPEAKER_01]: He bench pressed four hundred fifty seven pounds and he dead lifted seven hundred eighty one pounds.

31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, these numbers don't make sense because they're too high. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: They're too high. [SPEAKER_01]: His total was two thousand nineteen pounds while weighing two hundred one pounds body weight. [SPEAKER_01]: So he has ten X body weight total, which is like [SPEAKER_01]: That's powerlifting like legendhood.

31:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you now achieved legendary status. [SPEAKER_01]: You're one of the best. [SPEAKER_01]: That's incredible. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also twenty five kilos better than the previous record holder Jonathan Kaco that record was set in twenty three at the World Championships. [SPEAKER_01]: So my question to you is not just how impressive Russ is.

31:45 [SPEAKER_01]: He is impressive. [SPEAKER_01]: but previously he was an eighty-three kilo lifter and his best total despite competing for a number of years was a hundred pounds less. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is just like mass moves mass, he moved up a way class, or what happened here. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that mass moves mass is like a, it's arguably an oversimplification of an important concept.

32:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the dude, if anybody seen Russ or he, I mean, you said his way class at two a five, but failed to mention his height. [SPEAKER_00]: I believe he is like five seven, maybe or something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: So he is a, [SPEAKER_00]: muscle ball. [SPEAKER_01]: He's a muscle nugget.

32:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I met him at Barville Brigade in LA in twenty sixteen. [SPEAKER_01]: Not the time he had not competed in powerlifting, but I see this dude with five eighty five on a bar squatted and he's doing like sets of six and I'm like. [SPEAKER_01]: At that point, I'm still fully into powerlifting.

32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm competing. [SPEAKER_01]: We would be in the same way class approximately at that time. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh my god. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what a monster. [SPEAKER_01]: Guys literally built different as they say. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I built differently too, but incorrectly, and I was like, this, if this dude ever competes, we're [SPEAKER_01]: We're in trouble.

32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like we're collectively in trouble. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I'm in a Jesse Norris signed up for Ron Ashtonals. [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, we're in danger. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've talked about this before when it comes to strength performance, there's the like neuromuscular skill, coordination aspect, the ability to coordinate your body muscles, contractions, bones, joints, everything in the right order and sequence to move the load or accomplish the task in as efficient of a way as possible.

33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the other side is how much forced production capacity do your muscles physically have and what leverages do they have on your joints so things like your muscle attachment points and tendon length and all sorts of other things that you know we are more or less modifiable. [SPEAKER_00]: In order to improve our performance and we know you know there this has been researched a decent amount that you know when if you just look at.

33:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Straight up the amount of muscle that someone carries. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a decent proxy for what their, you know, forced production performance is likely to look like. [SPEAKER_00]: But the more and more trained someone gets the tighter and tighter, meaning the closer that relationship holds where greater muscle cross-sectional areas, bigger and bigger muscles tend to predict better and better performances more and more accurately the more well trained you are because that element of like skill and coordination and stuff like that, that no longer becomes a significant differentiating variable between competitors.

34:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Like at that high level people know how to squat super efficiently super repeatedly like you and I we don't even have to think about you know squatting or a cue and it just kind of happens and so then it's just like okay well how much force can you put out during this effort and that at that very high highly trained level.

34:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Is to some extent just proportional to how much overall cross sectional area do you have and then moderated or mediated or augmented by some of those other variables that you don't get to choose. [SPEAKER_00]: How far from your joints to your tended to attach and various other like little interesting, you know, biochemical minutia like that.

34:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he was already quite gifted. [SPEAKER_00]: And highly trained and then jumped up, you know, twenty five pounds in body weight and remains quite lean. [SPEAKER_00]: So a large amount of that was muscle mass and muscle cross section area on top of a highly trained already kind of genetically gifted you know athlete.

34:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, as total is going to jump up a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a sufficient explanation for an improvement in performance at this level when you're highly trained and you pat and you move up a weight class. [SPEAKER_00]: More so than just like mass, because that, you know, it's not to say that if he had gained, you know, a twenty five pounds of body fat that his performance would have gone up.

35:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's fairly obvious to anyone here. [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Let me play Devils Advocate here a little bit. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say in this world, this is speculation. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say that Russ moved up this way class. [SPEAKER_01]: It actually did not represent and significant increase in muscle mass.

35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But instead, he no longer has to cut to make the lower way class previously. [SPEAKER_01]: He was in eighty three kilos. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not so much that he has any more active contractile muscle tissue, but rather he does not have to go through the stress of reducing calories, losing body water.

35:51 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that hypohydration, for example, as little as two percent can significantly compromise performance, [SPEAKER_01]: Is this just like, oh, you don't have to cut anymore? [SPEAKER_01]: Like you just or cut as much. [SPEAKER_01]: It's maybe just like, oh, yeah, I have a protein shake for your dinner the night before rather than like, like, bro, I got a few weeks.

36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to lose this weight. [SPEAKER_01]: I got to Shersona, whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: Is that seem reasonable to you? [SPEAKER_00]: It just kind of depends on how much did he have to cut before and how much did he have to cut now? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if he had said, I'm going to move up and I'm going to weigh a hundred kilos.

36:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And instead of, you know, weighing ninety and cut to eighty three now, I'm going to go up to a hundred and cut to ninety three here, something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, [SPEAKER_00]: then it may end up kind of coming out on the wash a little bit at that point. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, to also depending on the rules of where you're competing places, you and I have competed in before that allowed twenty four hour weigh in.

36:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Some other places that we even went further at four to eight hour weigh in. [SPEAKER_00]: I remember hearing about Dangerine doing like just some absolute gnarly cuts from, you know, two hundred fifty pounds down like losing thirty, thirty plus pounds or something like that in his forty eight hour cut, which is [SPEAKER_00]: risky and very unpleasant.

36:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine. [SPEAKER_00]: So under these stricter conditions, you can't afford to try to be that aggressive. [SPEAKER_00]: But maybe maybe a small part of it. [SPEAKER_01]: So in January of twenty twenty five of this year, at the Sheffield, Powerlifting Championships, Russ weighed in at a hundred and eighty two point six pounds and he totaled nineteen nineteen.

37:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And so now July of twenty twenty five he weighed in at two hundred two point three pounds and total two thousand twenty three pounds. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm thinking I'm like the odds of him gaining. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's call it. [SPEAKER_01]: Ten pounds of lean body mass in this amount of time.

37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's actual like muscle tissue. [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: Highly unlikely agree. [SPEAKER_01]: More likely is that he was already walking around at like, two, oh, five, two, ten. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know this to be the case. [SPEAKER_01]: I know that there's probably some internet fans that are more tied in that are like, oh, I can speak to this.

37:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems more likely that he just didn't cut as much. [SPEAKER_01]: Just given the timing here. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just my two cents. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That timing variable adds some important context although I don't think he was probably cutting over a twenty pounds for a two hour weigh in.

37:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's hope not. [SPEAKER_00]: Competition. [SPEAKER_00]: That seems insane. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the, yeah, the wildest thing about his performance, and we'll move on to the third beat of strength is that. [SPEAKER_01]: So he opened his squad at seven eleven, which is that point I believe was like thirty or forty pounds under his best, which was like seven forty nine.

38:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So all right, decent opener. [SPEAKER_01]: He misses his second attempt at seven fifty six. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, which would have been a competition PR. [SPEAKER_01]: And then instead of being like, oh, I got to repeat it, which is normally what most powerlifting coaches would advise, whatever, but I would probably favor in this high stakes situation and APF championships.

38:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That's screwed. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going seven, eighty three. [SPEAKER_00]: What dude? [SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible. [SPEAKER_00]: Those decisions are stressful on on me day, but it also kind of depends on the reason for the, you know, the missed lift. [SPEAKER_00]: You missed that second one because, you know, you started to go up and it was just far too heavy.

38:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Then yeah, it's a fool's errand to try to jump on the even higher. [SPEAKER_00]: But if it's a minor technical fault, for example, like this isn't what happened to him. [SPEAKER_00]: He got called on depth, I believe, by the side judges. [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I remember doing a doing a meet where I think I, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: re-racked the weight like a split second too quickly or something these kind of silly rules that are not actually directly related to your performance of the lift but rather kind of just other other aspects of the competition then you might say okay like I'll just fix that and I know I have the strength and technical ability to actually execute the next lift up so those are kind of game day or real-time decisions that can get made by a confident well trained experience athlete in their coach who understand the reason for missing a lift.

39:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes you'll see people who like absolutely struggle to grind out a weight and still call for a loading increase and it's like, well, that's not going to happen. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, yeah, unfortunate. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, third impressive feed of strength. [SPEAKER_01]: This happened at the CrossFit Games.

39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It took place in Albany, New York this past week. [SPEAKER_01]: Now for the fourth time in CrossFit Games history, there was a one-rett max back squat event. [SPEAKER_01]: Although this is the first time it was a stand alone event. [SPEAKER_01]: Previously, there were three CrossFit totals.

39:53 [SPEAKER_01]: That's where you do a one-rett max on the squat. [SPEAKER_01]: a one rep max on the overhead press and a one rep max on the deadlift. [SPEAKER_01]: Those were done in two thousand seven, two thousand eighteen and two thousand twenty. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this time they had a one rep max back squat only event.

40:06 [SPEAKER_01]: The winner of the men's division was Colton Merton's. [SPEAKER_01]: He squatted five hundred seventy pounds to win the men's division. [SPEAKER_01]: So of the thirty men's competitors who made it to the CrossFit Games finals six of them squatted greater than five hundred for comparison purposes in two thousand twenty when they held the CrossFit total that year.

40:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody squatted more than five hundred. [SPEAKER_01]: At eighty-six percent of the field this year, squatted four hundred fifty pounds or more, but only thirty percent squatted four fifty or more in two thousand eighteen. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's also talk about the women, Mirjam von Rohn, won the women's division at three hundred sixty pounds for her one rep max back squat.

40:43 [SPEAKER_01]: seventy percent of the women's field, this year squatted more than three hundred pounds, we're only fifty percent squatted over three hundred pounds in two thousand eighteen. [SPEAKER_01]: Why are CrossFit games athletes getting so much stronger? [SPEAKER_01]: How is this happening? [SPEAKER_01]: CrossFit games have been around for almost twenty years and does this change?

40:59 [SPEAKER_01]: How you would train somebody interested in competitive CrossFit? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this I watched part of this competitive event just out of interest. [SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of cool to watch. [SPEAKER_00]: They had each [SPEAKER_00]: Heat had forget how many athletes and they would just go around and they all worked worked up in their attempts.

41:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Interestingly, I actually think that they also allowed people to go down and wait, which kind of surprised me a little bit, because one athlete missed their first and went down. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, hold up. [SPEAKER_00]: You're not supposed to be allowed to do that. [SPEAKER_01]: Power of the rules.

41:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess you can do whatever you want in these events. [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, five, seventy, three, sixty just incredibly impressive for athletes who can also do all the other things that they're expected to do. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think if you went to almost any competitive powerlifting meet, found somebody who's awarded five, seventy or three, sixty, and then asked them to do a hundred and fifty foot handstand walker, something like that.

41:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that would go very well in the in the powerlifting meet hall. [SPEAKER_00]: But if the CrossFit games, it's just like baseline expectation that you can do that, that you can run swim by do all these other things. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, they're extremely impressive athletes.

42:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I will add a similar caveat to to Colton Merton's here in this one as I did to Russ or he in the last one. [SPEAKER_00]: So he's awarded five, seventy. [SPEAKER_00]: He weighs a hundred and ninety pounds is also five four. [SPEAKER_00]: So he is quite short. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and so I suspect that that affords him certain advantages.

42:18 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, an events like this and put some, I imagine that a pretty significant disadvantage in other events. [SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine, for example, in like the rope climbs, maybe he might not do quite as hot compared with some of his [SPEAKER_00]: uh, link here, uh, compatriots in, in the, the, the CrossFit games, but nonetheless, I mean, very impressive performance here, and obviously impressive to be able to qualify for the, for the games at all.

42:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I do remember us having some conversations, I would say back closer to or during the peak days of the CrossFit games, I think in general, anyone would recognize that the games are somewhat in decline these days compared to what they've been in prior years for a variety of, uh, you know, decisions that we will leave aside for now, but talking about, [SPEAKER_00]: the strength standards quote unquote or what kind of strength levels are you know baseline expectations for you know athletes to be competitive at the games level and I remember during those years when you were comparing say twenty eighteen twenty twenty we were probably of the opinion of like [SPEAKER_00]: If you're able to squat, say somewhere like in the midfores, you're probably strong enough to hang with the top of the pack.

43:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And you should probably be building up a lot of your other kind of athletic traits and skills and abilities and things like that. [SPEAKER_00]: And clearly now, that is no longer the case that squatting in the midfores. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that was like the lowest end of the competitive heats.

43:34 [SPEAKER_00]: when I was watching the guys. [SPEAKER_00]: There were some other interesting just observations in terms of strategy and technique and you could tell those who had a powerlifting background from those who didn't just in terms of like their setup methods and some of the equipment that they were using and some athletes were low barring and a lot of them were high barring and you could just kind of make some of these observations.

43:54 [SPEAKER_00]: But no doubt the overall loads have consistently and steadily increased. [SPEAKER_00]: I suspect if you looked at a lot of other performance metrics at the games. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, [SPEAKER_00]: you know, maybe ever, maybe they're PR, five k time or their PR, two k row or their ability to swim or their, you know, longest handstand walk distance or, you know, max pull-ups or something like that.

44:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Just I suspect that all of these traits are going up to some degree in parallel. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily think that, you know, they've unlocked. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the secret was I just needed to get stronger compared to where I was before. [SPEAKER_00]: So now the strength numbers are higher.

44:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I bet that the competition [SPEAKER_00]: Not only the competition is driving these things up, but the selection of athletes is just pulling for free here and free here people who can do these things. [SPEAKER_00]: So to your final point, there's this change how you would train someone interesting, competitive CrossFit.

44:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure that training methods have evolved over time, but I think it would be an oversimplification to say, oh, they figured out that you should just like get strong, get strong. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that these data points, for example, would say, oh, I would really push my CrossFit athlete to build up a one-written max back squat.

44:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like these one rep max back squats are an emergent property of a freaky athlete training to do freaky things for really long periods of time with reasonable training and programming methods. [SPEAKER_00]: A high responder will end up being able to demonstrate this kind of thing with probably a bit of practice and occasional exposure.

45:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I doubt that they're consistently and reliably training for their one-written max back squats, for example. [SPEAKER_00]: This could have been many other different types of strength feats or strength endurance feats or strength power feats, and we'd be seeing very impressive things as well, even though not all of those are getting like primary attention in their training program, just because there's so many things to be good at at this level.

45:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that there is much of a shift in how I would think about developing a CrossFit game, a person who's interested in competitive CrossFit. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree that the people need to be strong, but I think that that is more of like a happy accident of the rest of their training, which yes, some of it is fully focused on getting stronger, predominantly in the Olympic lifts and the variations there of [SPEAKER_01]: front squat for example push press, things of that nature, but as far as actually like a what would look like a powerlifting training block for strength, I don't think that's what would be advised based on this information.

46:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And further, just to throw a little wrinkle here, I look at the top three men competitors. [SPEAKER_01]: Jason Hopper won overall. [SPEAKER_01]: He's awarded five hundred. [SPEAKER_01]: Ricky Gerard, Gerard got second, he's got it, four, fifty, five, and James Spray got third, he's got it, four, sixty, five, the one Rm.

46:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm kind of of the opinion that these people are able to not only develop but also sustain a high level of absolute strength, relatively high level of absolute strength, despite a very high training volume that also allows them to have excellent gymnastics skills, excellent Olympic way lift performance, great endurance performance and [SPEAKER_01]: running, cycling, whatever, all that sort of stuff.

46:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, because they're due exposed to the barbell enough, they're also able to develop and sustain a high level of strength. [SPEAKER_01]: But I wouldn't be programming a lot of singles. [SPEAKER_01]: For example, I don't know that I would train the bench press very often at all. [SPEAKER_01]: I do think some exposures probably reasonable just for upper body strength development.

47:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But like not like a power lifter, you know? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that this is again, not going to apply to most of the listening audience here because they're not freaks on this level. [SPEAKER_00]: But it's almost like you for that thing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: But it's almost like the people, these people who are placing at the games or who are just very highly competitive in this sport, it's almost like who is bestowed with the genetic gifts to A.

47:41 [SPEAKER_00]: tolerate the amount of training that needs to be done and be who has the most resistance to the interference effect. [SPEAKER_00]: So like when we talk to our general population listeners, we're like, hey, don't sweat this interference issue. [SPEAKER_00]: You can do your strength in conditioning.

47:57 [SPEAKER_00]: You can do them on the same day, you and I both do a lot of like, you know, same day, string, think, additional, that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that when you're training three plus times a day, doing all these different tasks, doing short stuff, fast stuff, heavy stuff, endurance effort.

48:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, there is a point where things undoubtedly interfere. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's almost like who is most resistant to the interference effect while also being able to tolerate the greatest training loads. [SPEAKER_00]: And you wonder if that's [SPEAKER_00]: sort of like if you could distill that down into a metric that would be like maybe predictive of somebody who is a very high performer in the CrossFit Games.

48:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Now you just got to measure their fingers. [SPEAKER_01]: I see what the second to third digit ratio is. [SPEAKER_01]: That's how you know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little inside joke. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, moving on to the national football league. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you heard about this, but the NFL banned smelling salts.

48:44 [SPEAKER_01]: kind of. [SPEAKER_01]: The NFL has banned teams from providing smelling salts to players due to safety concerns, citing that they're unsafe and they're used to mask concussions. [SPEAKER_01]: This comes from an FDA memo saying that, quote, adverse side effects of using unapproved ammonia and halence, including chornus of breath, seizures, migraine, vomiting, diarrhea, and fainting from consumers after using these types of products.

49:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Possibly purchased through various websites. [SPEAKER_01]: The players are allowed to bring and use their own ammonia and aliens. [SPEAKER_01]: However, other sports have done this too. [SPEAKER_01]: Hockey Quabek, a branch of hockey Canada that oversees amateur hockey in the province. [SPEAKER_01]: They banned smelling salts in February.

49:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Citing concern about their use by youth players. [SPEAKER_01]: Just a little background here before we get you to weigh in on this ammonia inhalants are, quote, smelling salts are where any number of preparations containing ammonium carbonate are combined with liquid and these are widely available on internet.

49:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Smelling salts are typically combinations of this ammonia. [SPEAKER_01]: carbonate, alcohol, and water, and a more accurate term for this mixture is actually aromatic spirits of ammonia. [SPEAKER_01]: But nobody calls them that. [SPEAKER_01]: That's good. [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Lance. [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds right.

49:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Historically, smelling salts were used to prevent and sometimes treat fainting, dizziness, and lightheadedness, some older medical texts dating back to the nineteenth century described using smelling salts to, quote, excite respiration to resuscitate a patient. [SPEAKER_01]: They're said to work by this sort of inhalation reflex being an irritant on the nose to the nose and the lungs and then are by increasing blood flow to the brain, increasing heart rate.

50:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And together, this resulting physiology is said to increase alertness and potentially a performance. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, there've been a number of studies on this. [SPEAKER_01]: I reviewed this in a previous podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Basically shows no effect on performance, perhaps worsening, uh, performance in some applications like golf.

50:35 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a whole thing where people would use these ammonia and haylands prior to a put and they were generally worse at putting that way. [SPEAKER_01]: As far as safety goes, there have been at least two case reports of spelling salt related complications. [SPEAKER_01]: In one, a female powerlifter had an allergic reaction after using an ammonia inhalant.

50:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And she required a swift medical attention, but ultimately all of her symptoms resolve. [SPEAKER_01]: In another instance, a fourteen-year-old boy collapsed during a running drill. [SPEAKER_01]: He was administered an ammonia inhalant repeatedly before being transferred to a hospital where he subsequently passed away.

51:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It was later found out that the boy had sickle cell trait, which was thought to be exacerbated by repeated ammonia inhalant administration. [SPEAKER_01]: So the question to you, Dr. Brocky, is this ban beneficial? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it even necessary? [SPEAKER_00]: Tough question. [SPEAKER_00]: This is an interesting that they have gone this far here.

51:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious, you know, they talk about concerns around the websites where athletes are getting these things from, but then allowing players to bring their own. [SPEAKER_00]: So I found that to be a little bit of an odd wrinkle here. [SPEAKER_00]: Like if you were primarily concerned about these, [SPEAKER_00]: Suppose it's side effects, which I am retained some skepticism that all of them are causally related to the use of the ammonia inhalant.

51:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Why are they still letting athletes bring and use their own unless it's just like we don't want to be involved or related to like. [SPEAKER_00]: any sort of risk here we want to be it's kind of CYA so like players you can do your own thing and we're not responsible for what happens to you.

52:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wonder you know in some of these situations the idea of the ammonia inhalant is causing some of those symptoms. [SPEAKER_00]: I it feels like a bit of a stretch for some of the things it almost makes me wonder like what is the reason that they're using it for some apparent like resuscitative event to like, you know, make somebody feel better or wake up or something like that and then are these potential side effects like actually effects of whatever cause that thing in the first place rather than a result of the amount of healing.

52:30 [SPEAKER_00]: capsule itself. [SPEAKER_00]: This is something that I will admittedly say that I've not spent a great deal of time investigating like what are the potential toxicities of these things. [SPEAKER_00]: But again, my threshold of skepticism here is say relatively high in that these are things that are commonly used in the competitive powerlifting context, both you and I have experience using these things.

52:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting thinking back like about the rationale around their use, what you described about like [SPEAKER_00]: Exciting respiration or accelerating resuscitation or improving performance. [SPEAKER_00]: And when you're using them, all of those things feel true. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where a lot of that came from.

53:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like a vibes based justification for use. [SPEAKER_00]: And then when it was studied a little bit more rigorously, it's like, oh, it turns out it doesn't really do any of those things, even though like feels like it wakes you up and makes you focused and things like that. [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't seem to pan out with more rigorous study.

53:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would want to see more rigorous evidence in the same way that we wanted rigorous evidence of efficacy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, would want to see more rigorous evidence to support the idea that it can cause any of these adverse events. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily have a problem with, you know, any sporting organization setting its own rules and saying, hey, like we're not going to, you know, promote the use of these things.

53:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly, like in the context of TBI and a traumatic brain injuries and concussion in the NFL, like that's a big issue for sure. [SPEAKER_00]: ammonia is not a treatment for concussion or traumatic brain injury, so I'm fine with that, not being recommended for use in that context, but I don't want to blow things out of proportion and attribute a negative effects or consequences to these things that aren't actually caused by them.

54:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have two kind of points here. [SPEAKER_01]: Point number one is that I do favor your rationale that this is like a CYA type thing, like look, if the teams are purchasing these inhalants and distributing them, well, [SPEAKER_01]: on some level responsible for verified, hey, these are.

54:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Good in Halen. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Compared to potentially harmful ones. [SPEAKER_01]: And when I look at the FDA memo, they have a handful of like manufacturers listed like they don't buy these ones. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's unclear why other than people have reported adverse effects from using them.

54:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like what were they using them quote incorrectly or like over zealously or like whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: I did have to laugh one of the names of the labs is called Spirarchy research labs. [SPEAKER_01]: That's oddly specific and unrelated to an audience. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you don't know what a Spyro key is, maybe Google that.

54:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You really want to get your Trap and Neema Palli, a knowledge base up. [SPEAKER_01]: You want to learn about some... [SPEAKER_00]: Syphilis, Syndesbyrosis, different types of infections caused by these bacteria. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not clearly related to this issue, but yeah, maybe maybe just a good general rule of thumb is don't buy supplements or like these, these, you know, things from people with weird potentially dumb names like insane labs or spyricate research.

55:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just don't. [SPEAKER_01]: Also, there's a company listed on here called No Slap and Soul Slap, which, yeah, would fall. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just a good rule of thumb. [SPEAKER_01]: I think generally speaking, but I'm unclear as to like, did they identify a particular ingredient that was responsible?

55:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it can't just be a ammonia given the fact that when looking for case reports on adverse effects in sport, I only was able to find two peppers. [SPEAKER_01]: And the last one was over twenty years ago. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm like, if there were bodies, [SPEAKER_01]: you know, or adverse effect that were that were coming having an overwhelming amounts, I would expect more case reports.

56:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is kind of curious on. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, both you and I have been at power lifting meets where by the end of the day, like the ground is just littered with the little pink capsules after they've been cracked and used before lifters attempts. [SPEAKER_00]: Some people that we know from the past would even use them routinely in training, like the more most of their work sets, they it's like just statistically, this is going to [SPEAKER_00]: take you out at some point if they were as risky as it might be suggested here.

56:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm curious about contaminants or confounding by, you know, what's the reason you passed out and needed to felt like you needed a smelling salt afterwards, rather than smelling salt causing it. [SPEAKER_01]: My only other feedback here has to do with maybe the [SPEAKER_01]: impact of sports on society so just imagine if there's just a plethora of NFL players using these things or just athletes generally speaking that are highly visible and then kids or otherwise highly influential influenceable you know populations see this and then they go on by this stuff and use them [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps not as intended or whatever, and then yeah, there's some unwanted effects there.

57:02 [SPEAKER_01]: That seems, you know, it's kind of like chewing tobacco and baseball. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, okay, kids see this. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's even like a gum, you know, big league chew, and it's like, does this? [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we should think about this a little harder. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be like a nanny about this sort of stuff, but yeah, these effects, you know, potentially real.

57:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm with you. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Last topic here on the third episode of the rundown. [SPEAKER_01]: We can't not talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: RFK Jr in the news again. [SPEAKER_01]: The U.S. [SPEAKER_01]: Department of Health and Human Services, the HHS, plans to cancel five hundred million dollars in funding for mRNA vaccines being developed to counter viruses that cause diseases such as the flu and COVID-nineteen.

57:42 [SPEAKER_01]: This will impact at least twenty-two projects being led by major pharmaceutical companies, including Pfizer and Moderna, for vaccines against bird flu and other viruses. [SPEAKER_01]: In addition to vaccines for certain types of cancer, that's been an emerging area of research for mRNA related vaccines.

57:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Long time critic RFK Jr said in a video he posted on X, formerly Twitter this week. [SPEAKER_01]: He said that mRNA vaccines do not adequately prevent upper respiratory infections such as COVID-nineteen and the flu. [SPEAKER_01]: He also announced that he was pulling the funding over the claims that mRNA technology poses more risks than benefits for these respiratory viruses.

58:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Children's health defenses as an organization that RFK Jr founded [SPEAKER_01]: Well, their president, Mary Holland, not a doctor, said that while we believe that mRNA vaccines should be taken off the market, the announcement is a positive move towards protecting public health. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, boy.

58:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Austin, any initial thoughts to this? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that we've watched the discourse around this topic and many others play out for the past five years or so. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's [SPEAKER_00]: been a challenging discourse to follow, frustrating in many ways. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the conversation around them from the beginning has been flawed.

59:02 [SPEAKER_00]: The communication around these types of immunizations as well as many others to the general public has been flawed. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that even a lot of public health folks and healthcare professionals would recognize that that communication could have been improved. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that either of us would be on board with the idea that these products or the technology broadly speaking poses more risk than benefit.

59:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that they are products that were rapidly developed on a background of research going back a few decades. [SPEAKER_00]: They were tested on tens of thousands in randomized trial, placebo-controlled trial, fashion early during the pandemic, allowing for pretty rapid deployment at about a year out.

59:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the aftermath, looking back retrospectively, we can see differential efficacy, meaning more or less effectiveness both over time, which is common with many different sorts of vaccines and immunizations, as well as differences between patient groups. [SPEAKER_00]: So for those who were at highest risk of severe disease and hospitalization and death, [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the benefits of these products tended to outweigh the risks.

1:00:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And then for very, very low risk individuals, that calculus may have been different on an individual level for that person. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's even a different conversation than like on a society level, big picture of the whole like herd immunity concept. [SPEAKER_00]: And those are detailed conversations that I would say are a little beyond our scope here today.

1:00:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But basically this is to say that I think he's probably painting with two broad of a brush in his comments that there are potential uses for this technology that deserve study. [SPEAKER_00]: The next question though is whether or to what extent that research study development ought to be promoted by funded by the federal government and taxpayer dollars.

1:01:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is more of a policy decision [SPEAKER_00]: than anything else, and that can be set by elected and appointed officials based on the results of our electoral system. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think that this technology is going to go away. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that by removing this funding, you know, some people might say, well, like, well, say goodbye to your cure for cancer or something, not to say anything about the idea of like, hearing cancer as a monolith is not a thing.

1:01:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: But if there is a cureable, you know, cancer, by way of one of these mRNA vaccines, I don't think that pulling this funding is the thing that's going to completely eliminate that possibility. [SPEAKER_00]: It may alter the timeline on which we might see something like that, right?

1:01:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It might have been otherwise sooner. [SPEAKER_00]: with federal support, and it might be more delayed. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that ultimately this research and development is just going to shift elsewhere. [SPEAKER_00]: And that might mean even outside of our country, and it might be spearheaded and led by other countries, and they might end up enjoying the benefits of it, or if it ends up being a failure for a particular condition or outcome, then they would suffer the failures of it.

1:02:14 [SPEAKER_00]: That's part of the reason why going back decades. [SPEAKER_00]: The federal government has funded and supported [SPEAKER_00]: all sorts of research in the country. [SPEAKER_00]: It is research that may not be immediately commercially beneficial to incentivize the private company to go after it and it is it kind of takes on some amount of that risk to kind of get the the ball rolling and of course not all projects are going to work out or all research studies are going to lead to some breakthrough discovery.

1:02:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But to give a different example of like the federal government originally funding like a study on the saliva of Gila monster venom from like decades ago, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And you can see I can just imagine that getting posted like rage bait on Twitter or social media saying, can you believe the government is funding us studying the saliva of lizards or something?

1:03:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, well, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: Fast forward, twenty years, and that's what led to GLP one agonists. [SPEAKER_00]: That's how we discovered all of that, which are like changing the world in all sorts of generally positive ways. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that both both you and I would say.

1:03:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is a, admittedly, a bit of a meandering answer of a variety of my thoughts on this topic. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there is a role for federal funding of research. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that as the elected and appointed group of folks, they are able to make these kind of policy decisions, I don't think that if their goal is like to shut down this kind of research and development for good that this is going to do that, it's just going to shift elsewhere, I think, and that might be to other people's benefit potentially.

1:03:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it'll just alter a lot of timelines for these things compared with the federal support that was previously planned and being given. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's well said regarding the policy aspect of this, like if someone is of the opinion that research as it's currently done should be supported by the government, whether in our country or other countries, then it's like [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, this effect would stymie and certainly slow down, research related to mRNA related therapeutics.

1:04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: If somebody is more of the opinion, well, this should be privatized. [SPEAKER_01]: It should be done by the potential manufacturers commercially and so on and so forth. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, then you're like, great. [SPEAKER_01]: The government now just saved the money. [SPEAKER_01]: I, where I fall on that is like, I don't see that being a viable way to support research in our country as it currently is just too expensive.

1:04:38 [SPEAKER_01]: There's not enough privatized fundate and then oh, by the way, when that research comes out, the first thing people say is like, oh, look who funded it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, damn, if you do, damn, if you don't, right from that perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my first issue.

1:04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, look, it's a policy thing. [SPEAKER_01]: People elected these folks. [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess I understand, but the, [SPEAKER_01]: very curious is to like what the reaction is going to be within the research world and how this does a set us back. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll only be able to tell some years from now.

1:05:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I suspect it's not a good move for like the health trajectory of the community, but that's speculative. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm being charitable here, but there you go. [SPEAKER_01]: My bigger issue here is that we've granted this particular individual a large platform to speak from, right?

1:05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: The Department of Health and Human Services Director, and then he says, well, MRNA technology, not just vaccines for COVID, but MRNA technology poses more risks than benefits for respiratory viruses at large, like bird flu, influenza, COVID, like, et cetera. [SPEAKER_01]: There's way more than just those three, [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

1:05:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Sewing doubt and distrust in the public that already was like probably feeling and the communication during code was not great and there's a lot of stuff up in the air and you know, the internet being what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's challenging. [SPEAKER_01]: And then also saying, hey, they didn't work.

1:05:53 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, it's like, well, it'd be very challenging to support that with existing evidence. [SPEAKER_01]: Did it work exactly as advertised or understood by many? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, but that's a communication issue, not like an efficacy problem, probably speaking. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll, I'll, I'll told them like, look, if you would have said, look, we're cutting funding because we want to direct it towards this other thing that we think is more promising.

1:06:17 [SPEAKER_01]: We wouldn't be talking about it right now. [SPEAKER_01]: But to come on, say we're cutting funding, we think these, these mRNA based technology would generally bad. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, a more risky than beneficial. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, if we have another pandemic that requires the use or benefit from the use of mRNA technology.

1:06:37 [SPEAKER_01]: We're kind of pickled. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was listening to an interview with one of the former directors and health advisors for like seven previous presidencies. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, look, I've lived through a number of different vaccines or pandemics that have required some sort of vaccine development or whatever.

1:06:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And so with our existing technology unrelated to mRNA. [SPEAKER_01]: The best we could do, if we already had the technology, already had the genome could do whatever with it, right? [SPEAKER_01]: New what we were fighting. [SPEAKER_01]: We could maybe make enough vaccines for a quarter of the population in fifteen, eighteen months.

1:07:10 [SPEAKER_01]: With MRNA technology, we could develop a vaccine for a pandemic in twelve months for everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, so let's hope we don't have another pandemic. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, challenging. [SPEAKER_01]: Challenging, understanding the rationale here. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and as someone who was working in patient hospital units during the worst of those times and seeing a lot of folks, mostly, yes, mostly middle-aged and older folks getting very ill and many of them dying, also seeing the occasional unlucky young person who got very sick, potentially very ill and a couple who even did died during that time.

1:07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: the idea that there are potential strategies that we have to shift that probability of risk, right, which is that if we can communicate that more effectively, not that these things have the potential to abolish any chance that you will ever get an infection or that you will ever get sick again, which is where misconceptions came from, right?

1:08:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But instead, if you were somebody who would have otherwise died, maybe now you don't die, if you were someone who otherwise would have been hospitalized, maybe you don't get hospitalized, [SPEAKER_00]: If you were otherwise going to get very ill, maybe now you only get mildly ill. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you were going to get mildly ill, maybe you have an asymptomatic infection, just like shifting that probability curve is what these types of tools can do for us.

1:08:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Communicating that concept more effectively, I think can help people make a little bit more informed decisions based on their baseline risk profile. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, their health and wellness goals and things like that moving forward. [SPEAKER_00]: There were plenty of people who declined, you know, immunization for various reasons, personal, religious, whatever preferences, etc.

1:08:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And many of them, of course, did okay, especially if they were at low baseline risk. [SPEAKER_00]: Some of them didn't do okay. [SPEAKER_00]: And I sat face to face with some of those people in their literal dying moments when they said, well, I didn't want to take it because I was worried about the side effect.

1:09:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't say that it would have saved their life, but you know, it would have probably given them a better shot than they had otherwise. [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's like the [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's useful to recognize the background of experience that I come at this question with is working and operating in that situation.

1:09:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as a potential tool to mitigate those types of bad things from happening, you know, pulling the funding is something that is just I'm saying it's just likely to set it back, whether it's ultimately good or bad, I think it's [SPEAKER_00]: That's too reductive of a question, right?

1:09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: These tools are more useful for some than others. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it shifts in a way in the timeline shift and, you know, fifty years from now. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it all ends up coming out in the wash somehow. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the future, you know, is not something that any of us have any great deal of insight into on this matter, but that's kind of where we stand today.

1:09:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, agreed. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is a wrap here on the third episode of the rundown here on the barbell medicine podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Before we go, just a quick plug for our barbell medicine plus subscription. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to listen to these podcasts, add free.

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1:10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll catch you next week and every week right here on the Marvel Medicine podcast.