Oil Drops Ahead of UN Meetings; Networks Sue Over White House Press Ban

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0:09 This is Bloomberg Businessweek Daily. Reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead. With insight on the people, companies, and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus, global business, finance, and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Podcast. With Carol Masser and Tim Stenebeck.

0:33 Hey, listen, we've been talking about this.

0:35 We know this time of the year here in New York City so well. Streets blocked off, lots of barriers, security on high alert. We've got a lot of officials coming in and out of the Bloomberg building as well. And you've got members of New York City police force all over Manhattan, the U.N.

0:49 General Assembly. getting underway.

0:52 Yeah, UN headquarters right here in New York City. The meeting's happening amid the Russian war against Ukraine, the US war in Iran, now in its seventh month. Carol, it is a lot. It's also got leaders from many different countries here in the US and also meeting in other places too.

1:08 So we want to figure out kind of what we all need to be focusing on this week. Chris Kennedy, that's part of his job.

1:14 Here at Bloomberg.

1:15 He's Economic Statecraft Lead at our Bloomberg Economics team. He's out there in our Bloomberg DC News Bureau.

1:19 Chris, there's UNGA.

1:20 Let's not forget, President Trump's meeting President Xi of China. He's also meeting the interim president of Venezuela. It feels like it's a game of whack-a-mole, the geopolitical version this week. What's top of mind for you and the team in DC and all of our Bloomberg news reporters and editors that are following the UN General Assembly this week?

1:40 Well, as you said, this week is always a big one on the foreign policy front. We are, of course, watching UNGA, the high-level week, and we don't expect any major peace deals to come out of this week. Of course, the president would love to have some good news on the foreign policy front. So there's always a possibility he could get something or message something. But in terms of what we're actually looking at, We think the Gulf Cooperation Council meeting will be something to watch. In particular, there's questions about U.S. commitment post-midterms. There's questions about the extent to which the U.S. is willing to engage and defend some of the Gulf Arab allies in the region, especially after some of the requests coming out of Riyadh from

2:28 Saudi Arabia for support from the U.S. So just getting a sense of where things are going to be going from there. Of course, Delcy Rodriguez is in town, as you mentioned. We see this as the U.S. really trying to put her forth to the global community as the legitimate leader of Venezuela, perhaps attract some additional investment from other countries. Ukraine, Russia, Zelensky, and Trump will meet. President Trump is very concerned about diesel prices. We think it's unlikely that he will be able to secure a ceasefire, primarily because that would require Russia to stop attacking Ukraine as well, as frustrated as Trump is about the refinery hits by Ukraine on Russian energy assets. Then the big

3:14 meeting between Xi and Trump in D.C.

3:16 It's a lot.

3:19 It's a lot. We don't expect a ton there either.

3:23 We do think that both sides really want to maintain stability right now. China has no interest in a big shock to the relationship between the U.S. and China right now because they depend on global growth holding up, export markets around the world. And of course, the U.S. still depends on China for critical inputs like rare earths, And the president wants to avoid any additional economic headwinds before the midterms.

3:49 Chris, forgive me for being you covered a lot. So we appreciate that. Forgive me for being a little provincial, though, and bringing up the mayor mayor's meeting today with President Trump. That's that's happened later this afternoon. The president is now on his way here to New York City for that meeting from a D.C. perspective. I mean, we understand the New York perspective being New Yorkers here, but the D.C. perspective.

4:10 Why are you watching this? Oh, the mayor's meeting. Yeah, the mayor's meeting with the president.

4:15 Monday.

4:16 Yeah.

4:16 So, you know, I think for the president, this is really just an exercise in messaging. I think we saw previously when President Trump met with Zoran Mamdadi that it was positively covered by the press.

4:31 It was a bromance, Chris.

4:33 Come on, just go there.

4:34 We're all in. It was.

4:38 The president's been very frustrated by the way the media is covering him recently, as we saw, kicking out some news outlets from White House access. So I think that's primarily it. It's not going to solve any of the problems and the challenges that he faces ahead of midterm elections on November 3rd.

4:54 One thing I want to ask you, and this is something we're going to dig in, Tim and I, over the next couple of hours. is just this banning of certain news outlets and lack of TV pool coverage. And now we've got the White House app where you can go to to find out what's going on.

5:09 Why is this?

5:10 This isn't the first time the president has looked to ban members of the press community.

5:14 Why is this happening now amid everything.

5:18 That's going on?

5:20 Well, certainly he, by all accounts, has talked about this in the past. He's been walked off of those threats by the team at the White House. That team has changed. Carolyn Leavitt's no longer at the White House. But of course, I think the president sees all of the the negative headlines about the Iran war, about his renovations and efforts to renovate and put his name on the Kennedy Center.

5:48 And it seems to just be boiling over. So that's how I would look at this. This is just sort of the culmination of a lot of bad news rather than some discrete change.

6:05 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.

6:16 All right. So we did mention the energy prices oiled down for a fourth day. Brent set for the longest run of decline since June. Traders tracking diplomatic efforts to end the U.S.-Iran war. Crude and liquefied natural gas flowing through Hormuz are running at a six-month high. That's according to Admiral Brad Cooper.

6:33 He is head of U.S. Central Command.

6:35 So weighing in on the global energy markets amid the U.S. war in Iran, Qatar's prime minister and minister of foreign affairs, also an advisor to the prime minister of Qatar and official spokesperson for the ministry of foreign affairs, Qatar's energy president, Qatar energy president, I should say, and CEO. He is also Qatar minister of state for energy and former U.S.

6:55 Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. You know him.

6:58 All at Sunday's UNGA special edition of the Qatar Economic Forum. It was powered by Bloomberg. Just check it out, everyone.

7:04 Each and every government, there is a lot of fat that's needed to be cut.

7:08 And every time you have.

7:10 Such a crisis, we need to use this opportunity to cut this fat. For the past couple of weeks now, we've been going back and forth over different ideas to restart the talks since the return of hostilities to the region. The trade that we have through the thermos trades, it cannot be obsolete because, you know, everything through, you know, that comes through to Iraq, to to Iran, to Qatar, to Kuwait, to Bahrain. I mean, we have a few countries that have waterways outside the Gulf, but the rest of the countries are all inside.

7:44 We need to make it clear to the Iranians the Strait is open and will be open and that they can't hold it hostage.

7:51 All right, that last voice, of course, former U.S. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin.

7:54 What's interesting is the three voices you heard before that, Qatari officials and then also certainly Qatari energy officials, just with a global view when it comes to what's going on in the Middle East right now.

8:06 Well, our next guest here in the studio had a front row seat to the natural gas market. NatGas, by the way, down more than 22% this year, down close to 12% since late June. Back with us is Toby Rice, president and CEO of EQT Corporation, the nearly $ 31 billion market cap vertically integrated natural gas and energy company. Toby, it has been a year since you last were on our program. A lot has happened in the last year.

8:29 What has this been like for your world?

8:32 Specifically, the crisis, I think, is a really remarkable opportunity to talk about just big picture dynamics because we talk so much about how valuable America's energy independence is. And as you mentioned in the opening remarks, natural gas prices down 20%. You know what's happening around the world? International prices in Europe, they're up two and a half times.

8:52 $ 25 natural gas prices in Europe and in the United States, they're down 10%, 10%, 20%. This is the value of America's energy independence, and what this tells you is that thanks to the shale revolution, thanks to companies like EQT, we've successfully protected Americans from these geopolitical shocks, specifically on the natural gas front. I do also think it's important to draw some parallels between this crisis and what's happened in the prior gas crisis when the bombs dropped in Ukraine, because this tells us a little bit more about where we should be going future. We believe we need to be building bigger LNG ecosystems, Because what's taking place when the bombs drop in Ukraine? We lost about 10 BCF

9:32 a day of supply. That was the Russian pipe gas. Prices shot up to over $ 40 per MCF average. We see a similar amount of natural gas supply disruption. 10 BCF a day of LNG flows are not coming out of the Strait of Hormuz. But this time, we saw natural gas prices only rise to $ 25 internationally today.

9:50 What's the difference between then and now?

9:52 Back then, the global LNG ecosystem was about 50 BCF a day, today it's 60, and the players that are supplying that LNG the United States was exporting 10 BCF a day back then. Today, we make a much bigger part of the market, supplying over 20 BCF a day. It just shows you how important energy independence is for America and how important America is in providing energy security to the world.

10:15 Is there oversupply, though?

10:16 I mean, with prices down, like, What's the incentive to build out maybe necessary infrastructure?

10:23 In the United States, what's really remarkable about these energy ecosystems, we have places in this world where energy prices are incredibly affordable. To give you perspective, $ 3 natural gas, which is around where the prices are, is less than 50 cent per gallon of gasoline here in the United States.

10:39 But you go across the world and they're paying over $ 25 for the natural gas. That is the energy equivalent to close to almost $ 200 per barrel, okay? So these price differences that you see is all dependent on the amount of infrastructure you have to create these markets. We see it happening on a global stage. We see it happening here in the United States. And a great example is what's going to take place this winter. I'm going to be selling gas for, call it $ 3. and a short distance away in New England, they're going to be paying some of the highest natural gas prices in the world.

11:11 Because the infrastructure isn't there?

11:12 Because they don't have the pipeline infrastructure to get there. So the answer to all this is more pipeline infrastructure in the United States, more LNG infrastructure and regasification terminals everywhere. and associated pipelines around the world. That's how we create a more volatile space with a situation where the world can meet the supply, can meet the demand with the supply.

11:31 Well, let's talk about the New England example, the Northeast example. How difficult, like what are the biggest challenges in getting that infrastructure in place, that pipeline in place? Is it all local? It's really.

11:41 New York has really blockaded New England from getting the energy infrastructure they need. This is why we need to see permit reform so that states can stop weaponizing their ability to get energy infrastructure. I mean, it's a really sad state of affairs when the governor of New York has more influence over the energy policy than the governors of Massachusetts or the governors of Rhode Island.

12:01 Because you have to go through the state.

12:03 Because you have to go through the state.

12:04 And this is one of those unique, remarkable things where we see the market forces are saying, bring us more energy, like I said, Natural gas prices in New England are gonna be some of the highest in the world this winter. We see the market forces, but political force has blocked the ability for market forces to work. We need to get back to a place where market forces rule, market forces drive the cheapest, most reliable, cleanest energy to the marketplace, and we need a regulatory environment that allows that to happen.

12:30 It's been quite a challenge the last eight years, and this is a result, what we're seeing across the country is we're seeing, thanks to, we're still producing, But we're producing record amounts of energy in this country. We've never produced more than we are right now. Oil and natural gas. Yet, despite that, Americans' energy bills are up over 40%. That's a head-scratcher. How can that happen? It's because political forces blocked market forces. We need to get back to building infrastructure.

12:55 And the solution is going to, unfortunately, is going to take some political force to get us back in line. That's why we've been advocating for perma-reform a year ago. We're advocating for it today. We think it's one of the most important things that we can do in this country to lower bills for Americans and help support our allies.

13:11 Toby, how is the data center development bill, though, also kind of exacerbating the situation?

13:16 Yeah, I mean, people need to understand AI and the tremendous amount of energy that that's going to utilize is causing people to look at their energy bills. And they're saying, wow, my energy bills are up. Electricity alone in the United States across the board is up 50%. But people need to understand this. Your electricity prices were going up before Iran.

13:34 They were going up before people even started talking about AI. This is actually a really bullish demand for natural gas. We see this showing up between 10% and 18% increase in natural gas demand. For electrification in general, the data centers is only going to take about 40% of that.

13:53 And just keep this in mind.

13:55 One of the things that we need to remember is that we've shut down over 174 gigawatts of reliable power generation in this country, mostly in the form of coal and nuclear. We've backfilled some of that with natural gas. But we have a massive hole that we need to fit in and get that infrastructure built.

14:12 It's just a step. We have the resources.

14:13 We just need the ability to get things built.

14:15 Yeah, if time machine, I think people would go back and say maybe don't close some of those nuclear plants. The conversation might have been different.

14:20 Coal maybe, you know, it does have a pretty big impact on the environment.

14:25 You did mention data centers, Carol. New York and Texas, Toby, have both moved to slow data center development. Pennsylvania recently signed an EO to tighten their data center rules. What does this mean for your world? I mean, you talked about the challenges with permitting in New York, but if data center pushback is a bipartisan issue, that's a challenge for you.

14:43 Yeah, it's a remarkable setup that's taking place right now. We see polling that says 80% of the public is unfavorable towards data centers.

14:51 I mean, ICE.

14:53 is more popular than data center development. I think the good news in this is that people are talking about artificial intelligence. They're talking about transformative technology. They're talking about energy. The bad news is that the conversations are starting with fear. This is transformative technology, but instead of talking about what we could lose, we also need to be talking about what we can create. And I do believe that artificial intelligence, it is transformative. Intelligence plus energy, I do believe, is going to create a better world for all of us, not just to provide energy security to Americans, but also translate these opportunities around the world. But in any situation, technology leaders will take different tacks. This is just like

15:34 what took place with hydraulic fracturing, was transformative technology. And some places around this world banned technology, like what Europe did. In the United States, we leaned in. to this technology. Understanding the risks, industry stepped up, put the proper safeguards in place. We were not federally regulated from a hydraulic fracture perspective, and industry did something amazing. We turned America from being energy dependent to an energy powerhouse on the world stage.

16:00 We created abundance.

16:01 I do believe we need to get intelligence correct because it is an important part of the puzzle going from energy and intelligence to create abundance for this world.

16:10 So yay, but yet we're still paying higher energy prices.

16:12 Well, that could be solved very simply. You want to lower energy bills in New England? People are pointing to the 30 gigawatts of offshore wind that was supposed to be built that's getting blocked. I would point to the fact that we've had 30 gigawatts of reliable power generation that would have been fed by low-cost natural gas as the reason why energy bills are up.

16:30 We had diesel up on the screen just now. I mean, the problem is you're not filling up diesel trucks with natural gas. That's the problem.

16:37 And the only alternative we have towards natural gas with low-cost solutions is propane. And EQT actually just purchased a propane facility.

16:44 In New England.

16:45 We're making every effort we can to get as much energy to places that are obviously energy starved. Americans need to understand your energy bills being high, completely unacceptable. It's completely self-inflicted. We are a superpower when it comes to producing energy. Our kryptonite though is getting infrastructure built. That's why we need to get perm reform and let us get back to doing what we do, which is lowering energy bills, cleaning up the environment, putting more decarbonizing solutions in place and providing energy security, not just for Americans, but for our allies around the world.

17:19 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.

17:30 CNN, MSNOW, Politico filing a lawsuit seeking to allow their journalists to enter the White House grounds days after President Trump revoked their access, turning to the courts in their fight over constitutional protections for the press. We should point out this latest ban marking a significant escalation in the administration's efforts to really curb press access to events and spaces that are in the public interest.

17:52 Yeah, federal courts have previously overturned similar moves against reporters who work at the White House campus. The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution does prohibit the government from making laws that abridge freedom of speech and the press.

18:03 We welcome once again back to Bloomberg Businessweek Daily, Katie Fallow. She's Deputy Litigation Director of the Knight First Amendment Institute over at Columbia University. She focuses on threats to free speech and a free press in the digital age.

18:14 She joins us once again in New York City.

18:16 Katie, this story popped up. We're like, we need to talk to Katie. So thank you for finding time for us. I think it's accurate to say this is just the latest move by the White House administration and President Trump to limit free speech in the United States. You all at the Knight First Amendment Institute have been putting out releases.

18:34 How big a threat is this to free speech?

18:37 I think it is an extreme threat. And as you say, it's just the latest effort in a sustained... attack on the press and on free speech rights by Trump and the Trump administration. And, you know, this is pretty dramatic. On Friday, you have the president saying, I'm kicking out three major news outlets from the White House press facilities, which means having a press pass and being able to go onto White House grounds and go into areas of the White House that the White House has intentionally opened up and dedicated to allow the press to report on the comings and goings of the presidency and his policies.

19:20 And what's really important about this, it's not just the right of the press, but it's the right of the American people to have the press from a variety of different perspectives and to independently report on the White House so that the public can understand what the president is doing and hold their elected representatives to account. But you have on Friday, Trump saying, I'm going to ban these outlets from the White House because I don't like what they're saying about me and they're reporting negatively.

19:50 About me.

19:51 And there is this bedrock First Amendment principle that says that government officials cannot punish speakers, including journalists. based on their viewpoints. And that is explicitly and by his own admission, what President Trump is doing.

20:08 So then does it set up what kind of legal showdown does it set up? Is this something that's pretty cut and dry and easy for a judge to rule on that gets the press back in there that gets these outlets back in there very soon?

20:22 I think it is pretty cut and dry. Of course, you never know how an individual judge is going to react. But first of all, these outlets have already filed a complaint and asked for a temporary restraining order, which I believe the court has ordered a hearing on their motion for this Wednesday. And the complaint makes three claims. First of all, it says that by revoking the press pass past passes of these news outlets, the White House has violated due process. And the reason why they're talking about due process is because the courts in Washington, D.C. have for decades held that the White House press passes must be subject to due process. You can't just take away anyone's any reporters' press pass without giving them a reason,

21:11 without giving them an opportunity to appeal. And part of the reason why they've held that is because the courts have recognized that it would violate the First Amendment rights of reporters to just revoke the press pass without.

21:23 Giving any explanation.

21:24 The complaint also talks about a separate kind of legal theory of retaliation under the First Amendment, which again says that the government cannot punish speakers based on their viewpoint. And then the last claim is this public forum argument. And that, again, is a very longstanding free speech doctrine that holds that when the government opens up some of its spaces, meaning government buildings or meeting rooms, et cetera, and it allows either members of the public or members of the press to come into those spaces and engage in expression by news gathering and asking questions and reporting to the public. It has created a public forum and the government may not exclude people from that forum based

22:13 on viewpoint or the content of their expression. And that's exactly what the government and President Trump have done here.

22:20 Although safe to say, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here, that not everyone can get a White House pass to cover the president or the administration. And, you know, again, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit like that, right? So- You know, I try to think in a different universe, different president, different member of the press where somebody might say something controversial and there might be some cheering from the press saying, good thing that you blocked him. So, like, I'm trying to understand in a world where we must embrace free speech that sometimes free speech is uncomfortable.

22:59 Well, certainly it is.

23:00 And I mean, I think one could argue that President Trump's own speech sometimes is uncomfortable, but we want to protect his own personal speech rights as well as the right of the government leader to engage in speech. But I think one of the things you said is actually important, which is not everybody can go and get a press pass.

23:19 And by obvious reasons, we can't all go into the White House to hear the president speak.

23:24 And that's why it's so important.

23:26 To allow members of the press and news outlets that aren't just, you know, handpicked by the government because they are serving as a proxy for the public and they are informing the public and they get the access, but not just for their own rights, but the right of the public to learn about what the president is doing.

23:45 And I think the other thing is the way this has been set up again by the White House for decades is they say, we're going to make these press passes available. You have to get credentials. You have to, you know, pass security review. But the rule is they're not supposed to pick and choose among the reporters or news outlets who can get these press passes based on viewpoint, because otherwise they're just going to choose people that, you know, support, you know, whatever administration is in power. And I also think it's, I mean, I was heartened to see, um, Fox News taking a stand and supporting these other outlets and other more conservative news outlets, supporting the right, the First Amendment rights of these news organizations to not be

24:30 discriminated against based on their viewpoint, because the importance of this principle is it applies across the aisle.

24:41 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this. Are we ready? We're ready, yeah. We're talking diamonds. There's some news here, though. The industry is incredibly important to some countries. Take Botswana, for example. We spoke last year to Jen Zabasaja all about this. The country intent on increasing its share of De Beers, the world's biggest diamond company, when Anglo-American divests, but it hasn't settled on a, quote, magic number for its preferred stake. This is according to...

25:12 The nation's vice president, Ndaba Goloth, he said this in an interview with Bloomberg TV in London just on Friday.

25:19 Now, keep in mind, this is against a backdrop of the price of diamonds plummeting over recent years due to pressure from cheaper lab-grown stones and weakening Chinese demand. Diamonds have underpinned Botswana's economy since they were first discovered there back in 1967. It's been very important to that economy.

25:36 The industry downturn, though, has tipped the country significantly. as a result of the changes into recession.

25:41 Nicole Wegman understands the industry. She understands diamonds. She's founder and CEO of Ring Concierge. It sells fine jewelry and custom engagement rings. She joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Welcome.

25:52 Thank you for having me.

25:53 I want to start with the lab versus natural debate and where things are right now. I was trying to figure out timing for this because when I got engaged a decade ago, nobody was talking about lab-grown engagement rings. But now I'm talking to people who are getting engaged right now and it's like all lab-grown.

26:08 Yeah.

26:08 Last year, Labrona made up 60% of our engagement ring sales, which is a huge increase. Cut to five years ago, it, I don't know, maybe made up 20% and people weren't really talking about it.

26:19 It was very quiet.

26:21 And now it's just a part of the decision you make when you're buying an engagement ring.

26:25 You know, it's interesting.

26:26 I think when I first started covering it here and people would start talking about it in interviews, and I want to say over the last few years or so, My understanding initially, they were limited in size. Is that true in the beginning and then it's changed?

26:38 And quality.

26:39 They really hadn't figured out how to make them in a jewelry quality. They used them in different kind of industries, but now they can make them colorless, nearly flawless, any carat weight, any shape.

26:51 Any color?

26:54 Not any color, many colors though.

26:56 Many colors. The ones you'd want.

26:58 Can you tell a difference between a lab-grown and a natural diamond?

27:03 No, and anyone that says they can, they're just pushing their own, I think, agenda towards natural. We have a $ 10, 000 scanner we put them in. to determine if it's lab versus natural.

27:15 That's what it takes. Could a gemologist with an instrument, no, not even looking at it.

27:19 No.

27:19 Wow.

27:19 No. Under that little eyepiece thing.

27:21 No, the loop.

27:22 No, it requires much more than that. You basically have to look for a growing pattern to determine if it's from the earth or from a lab.

27:28 So how, in the words of Gen Z, right? How cooked is the natural diamond industry?

27:34 There is still a market for it. So even though 60% of our engagement rings were lab last year, 40% of our well, I should say 60% of our revenue from engagement rings was still natural. So 40% of our consumers still bought a natural ring. It's downtrending. It's going to continue, but there's still demand there. It's just a big shakeup and prices are going down. And I think it's very unknown what it's going to land at.

28:01 Why does somebody choose the natural over the lab grown?

28:06 I think it's the idea of it being truly rare, truly special and, hopefully worth something.

28:12 They're not that rare. No offense, but there's tons of diamonds. I'm just saying, like, it's really amazing.

28:19 Like, I just remember watching documentaries like years ago, right? And it's like, fewer chosen and given.

28:25 Out, but there's, Like, have you ever gone to stores? There's lots of natural diamonds.

28:30 Completely.

28:31 Big ones, little ones, all kinds of sizes.

28:33 No, there really are.

28:34 But the bigger ones, the higher quality, like the auction-worthy pieces.

28:38 Those are actually rare.

28:39 They truly are.

28:41 The smaller goods, like the studs, what you're putting in a tennis bracelet, there's a lot to choose from.

28:46 Like Lauren Sanchez's ring, is that what you're thinking of?

28:49 Probably, right?

28:49 Oh, there's just thousands of those.

28:51 30-carat vivid pink cushion-cut diamond ring set on a platinum band. That's not lab grown, I would imagine.

28:57 I would hope not. That's a baseball. Having said that, what's the price differential? Talk to us a little bit about that. Because you go into a jewelry store.

29:03 There's a jewelry store that my mom used to go to and we grew up going to and stuff. And I go in now and there's natural diamonds. There's lab. There's CZs. There's like something else. There's all these different grades, if you will, or levels that you can spend. So tell us, though, about lab versus natural. Remind us about the cost differentials.

29:23 It's going to be about 70% less for a lab-grown. And the other thing to really consider is you can get a way higher color and clarity. So usually the decision consumers are making, it's budget driven. If you have $ 10, 000, but you really want a two and a half carat, it's not going to be a natural diamond. You're going to select a lab, but it's the consumers that have bigger budgets that really have the option of choice that are debating what's more important to them. What do they want to wear every day?

29:53 Don't people, though, that are buying lab diamonds, don't they just go for the better quality?

29:57 They do, for sure, but it still doesn't add much to cost. Almost all lab grounds are really high color and clarity.

30:04 Really?

30:04 They don't grow them in the low colors.

30:05 That's what I was going to.

30:06 Say, right?

30:07 Why would they, right? It makes no sense. It's fascinating.

30:10 Yeah.

30:12 What?

30:12 No, I love this topic.

30:14 Yeah.

30:15 Because it's something that I think for so long people said... we're never going to be able to replicate what mother earth does over what, how many years?

30:24 Oh, millions.

30:25 Yeah.

30:25 Millions.

30:26 There were people, I mean, I remember people telling me not that long ago, like we're never going to be able to replicate that at scale.

30:31 Right.

30:32 And look, here we are from a technological perspective. Like what was, what was it that allowed this to be recreated on a wide scale in a lab?

30:42 I think there was the increase in demand that, encouraged people to figure out the technology. The technology always existed, but they used it in drills and, again, back to more industrial usage.

30:54 It's energy intensive, right?

30:56 Very energy intensive. It's not great for the environment, if we're being honest. There are pros and cons to both mining, lab-grown. You really want to educate yourself because there's a lot of CO2 emissions.

31:11 And the cost, though, of the energy, though? I guess it's not that terrible if.

31:15 You mean the actual monetary cost?

31:17 Yeah, monetary cost.

31:18 It's high, but they're producing... You can make a diamond in a week or two. So you're really able to produce a lot.

31:25 Can you order a custom diamond that's not made yet?

31:28 You can.

31:29 It's not perfect. They cannot grow exactly what you ask for. You can't say, I want it to end up being this 10-karat cushion.

31:37 That's difficult.

31:38 So it's not really happening. Usually, there's enough selection to... But the most beautiful thing about what Labrone has done is it's just provided choice. You have way more options for your budget or you still can choose a natural. And that's really what we try to stand behind as a company. It's just increased the amount of choices consumers have.

31:57 And it didn't used to exist. It used to be very price prohibitive.

32:00 Nicole, talk about your company because you do have retail.

32:03 Right?

32:03 You have brick and mortar and you're obviously online. Tell us a little bit about, because you've been around since I think 2013.

32:08 Correct.

32:09 Just talk about the evolution and how you're selling, where you're selling the most, because brick and mortar is expensive.

32:14 Yeah.

32:14 I mean, we're primarily an online business. So we do have four stores, two are in New York City, but the vast majority of our business is done online. And the premise was 13 years ago and still is today, creating transparency and choice for women in an industry that is really male-dominated.

32:33 You guys didn't love that, right?

32:35 The whole idea that it was very male-dominated, yet it's women doing the gifts of fur or doing most of the buying.

32:42 Correct.

32:43 I came from the world of fashion where it really is women behind the scenes and typically a woman consumer. And then I was introduced to the diamond industry when I got engaged. And I looked around and I said, this is really odd. It's all men telling me what to buy and what I should wear on my hand for the rest of my life. And I thought, wow, there's a white space here.

33:03 What's the plan for, you know, you started this company more than a decade ago. The plan for the next step of it. You took on funding for the first time recently. Is it an IPO? Is it a sale? What is it?

33:17 Nothing in the immediate. We are still, there's still so much opportunity and so much growth. We definitely will be opening more retail doors, but really massive opportunity in e-com still, and that's something we're really focused on.

33:31 Is there something about the benefit of retail where people walk in and they see or can look side by side and have some makeup?

33:39 Yes.

33:39 It's a very antiquated industry, and it's also the consumer mindset is still a little bit behind other categories. The majority of the jewelry industry is still purchased in brick and mortar, unlike fashion and unlike other industries.

33:51 I mean, I think from an engagement ring perspective, like if we're thinking about that, it's something you don't do a lot.

33:57 Right.

33:57 So there's like a lot to learn about it when you're getting started.

34:01 I don't know.

34:02 I think there's an inherent distrust to jewelry. I think we've all heard these stories about like someone swapping out the diamond when you get your ring cleaned and getting ripped off. So I think when you can look somebody in the eyes, you feel like maybe you're not being taken advantage of. And that's why people really like going.

34:17 Into a store.

34:18 What's the status here in New York of the diamond district right now?

34:21 It's definitely having a hard time. I mean, there's definitely a huge shift to lab-grown, but basically you have to be able to increase your volume enough to make up for the decrease in the price point. And that's really difficult because the same amount of people are getting engaged, but now they're spending 70% less.

34:37 So it's tough.

34:38 So the diamond industry in the diamond district here in New York City is shifting also to lab-grown in a big way?

34:44 Yes.

34:45 At first, people took a side.

34:46 Yeah.

34:46 We never did. We really believed in it's the consumer's choice, but most people were really... either full-blown lab-grown, and they were opening up these growing factories, or they didn't even offer it. They were just die-hard natural diamonds or real diamonds. I don't think you can survive that way unless you're a heritage brand at this point, and most people have had to lean into lab-grown to survive.

35:07 And I will say that it's a younger generation. They like it.

35:11 They like the choice, and I think it's important to have that choice.

35:16 I went to the Diamond District to get my ring.

35:18 And you picked out.

35:18 A stone and like, you had to get a stone and then you like.

35:23 I had to go to get, even though mine was like a family heirloom, I had to go to get it appraised for insurance.

35:27 Yeah.

35:27 So like, yeah.

35:29 And did you find it overwhelming?

35:31 Uh, I loved it. You did.

35:33 Okay.

35:33 So that's a rare.

35:34 Take on the diamond district.

35:35 Is that weird? Yes. Most people find it.

35:37 And it was like a.

35:38 Reference to like somebody.

35:39 Fortunately, I knew a guy.

35:41 I knew a guy. Well, I had a friend who knew a guy and they are.

35:44 Yeah.

35:45 My friend's dad is the guy.

35:47 Nicole Wegman. Thank you so much. Founder and CEO of Ring Concierge joining us right here.

35:53 This is the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Podcast. Available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.