Human DNA Uncovered At Philly House of Horrors

0:01 Body Bags with Joseph Scott Moore. I'm going to confess something to you. I'm easily distracted. And it's a problem I've dealt with my entire life. And it is definitely, it is definitely a major hindrance when you are an investigator. So I always have to be mindful of this. You know, one of the things that always distracted me greatly when I was at the scene working a case was heat.

0:37 And the one thing in particular that I hated having to wear were Tyvek suits. Because when you're in one of these, and some people call them bunny suits, they're these white suits that you see all the people in the crime scenes wearing. You know, they actually have head coverings and all these sorts of things. And, you know, your feet are covered And I've worked in the South my entire career. So when I would get out of one of these things, it was nothing for me to have lost like five pounds of water weight. And to be able to keep up with detailed notes day in and day out, bit by bit on all of these things, and particularly when you're working scenes that are connected, it's kind of tough stuff. And I'm thinking about this today

1:25 because what I'm seeing appears to be a platoon size of people that are at the so-called Philly House of Horrors. And they're all wearing Tyvek suits, and they're all doing very detailed work. I don't know how they're doing it. I don't know how they can remain focused. They have to take breaks to rehydrate, and this is why. This house is rather substantial. The grounds are rather substantial. the space where all of these alleged events took place, it's pretty involved. So today, I think that it's important because we have some new developments in the so-called House of Horrors case to go over. And Brother Dave and I are about to break that down for you. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Dave, I've got

2:30 to tell you, I saw, you know, I refer to it as a platoon in the Army. That's generally about 40 dudes, right? So it looks that way. It's probably not that many people, but it seems to be. And then you've got, when you have an event like this, you're going to have like kind of a command and control center that's off. It's not necessarily off-site, but it will be outside of, of the tape many times. And what's going on with this so that folks understand from an investigative standpoint is you have people there that are not dressed out in a Tyvek suit. As a matter of fact, they're never going to go under the tape, but they're trying to help those individuals that are within this environment. And it can be from acquiring certain types

3:22 of equipment to doing, providing water to helping out with notes, to helping out particularly with communications like with headquarters, because there's information that has to be relayed. You know, these people generally don't walk around with a police radio or even a telephone in their hand because they're gloved. And you don't want to introduce that into this environment. So it's like a little beehive, you know, when you get inside of it and you kind of You kind of lose track of time. All you know is that you've got sweat rolling down your face and you've got a mask on.

3:57 But don't you guys plan it all out before you go in there? I mean, because you know you're going to be covered up. Don't you guys like have like a meeting at the donut shop with the cops where you sit around and go, hey, I got this room.

4:07 I'm taking these three dudes and we're going to go here.

4:09 Well, donuts were generally not involved. And let me know if any of those meetings come up because I do love my donuts and coffee. But yeah, what you do is you have, and this is kind of a real bare bones kind of breakdown of how it works, so that everybody is oriented to what you're about to walk into.

4:31 And every scene is different. No scene is the same. People will see similarities in things.

4:37 Have you ever had one of those meetings that is that, you know, where you're bringing everybody up to speed? Have you ever had one of those where you went, okay, we're getting ready to go into something that you're not going to be able to unsee this.

4:55 So I need you to.

4:56 Go ahead and take whatever you do, you know, and get yourself prepared because when you go, you're going to come back out and not the same as you went in and it ain't going away because that's what this horse house, this house of horror, Joe, what you and I have learned over the last few days is, is the stuff of nightmares.

5:18 And you know what? R.C.

5:20 Horsch, I know he's dead and gone, and Eugene, his son, is the reason that all this is coming about.

5:26 But dude, R.C.

5:28 Horsch told everybody years ago, I believe, what he was doing and planning to do with a story called Empathy. Now, let's go back to your meeting where they're telling you, you're getting ready to walk into the house of horrors, dudes.

5:43 Get ready.

5:44 Okay. I come from a different generation, so this is generally the cue that you would get. All right. It's very limited. You will hear people talk, and they'll use the term bad. They'll say, okay, this room is going to be really bad. And then they'll go into almost like a clinical description. For those that have done an initial walkthrough, and that's one of the things that has to happen, you have an initial walkthrough. And so if you're breaking down into teams, which does happen, I'll tell you what the teams consist of. But they will say, okay, this room in this structure is particularly bad. You're going to see a tremendous amount of blood in this area.

6:27 As a matter of fact, it looks as though that, you know, and you go into this, they'll go into some kind of superficial description of the trauma that the body has sustained because they haven't examined the body yet. But you're kind of, in our generation, it was them saying that. You didn't say, okay, you need to go get your whoopee and hold it and rock back and forth.

6:54 and go to your cry corner and take a time out. None of that happened.

7:02 You've got to make sure that the old school guys aren't smoking cigars and drinking scotch before they go in or while they're in.

7:08 No, but one of the problems— Didn't you tell me about.

7:11 A dude that used to smoke when he went through those scenes?

7:13 Yeah, they would. And I've got to tell you that— and this is kind of dark, but I remember several times in my career, Those meetings always took place back at my home with a glass of vodka. There you go.

7:32 Yeah.

7:32 And that's one of the tough things because they don't prepare you for it. And I'm not saying that that's what they're seeing with the horse house. I think that some of this stuff can be implied to a certain degree because They've termed it in a couple of different ways, but this barrel that is in the center down here, and it's got piping that has run to it, running away from it. Some of the stuff is actually implied, and you can create these things in your mind where...

8:04 And it's a weird kind of psychological place to be in. So, you're there in this environment, right? And you're standing there, and you're thinking, okay, we've got... individuals that are missing we think that something horrible has happened here and then of course you can actually see it like the potential of what had gone on at that point in time and then your brain you know the imagery is created there and you understand you're you're creating this and you're creating this in your mind even if you're absent bodies i had that i had a weird thing i was over at i was over in england a couple years ago and we went through the I'm going to get this wrong, so beg forgiveness for my friends in Great Britain.

8:49 But we were down in Greenwich, and we went to the naval museum they had. And as you can imagine, it's Great Britain, so the history is just incredible. And they actually had a miniature guillotine that was used to do executions on board boats. And I remember– and it had actually been used, and it was– it was smaller than what you envisioned what they had used. And I remember for a moment, I froze in time and I stared at that thing and I'm thinking the stories that this thing can tell, but you have to separate yourself from that as an investigator. You know, you can't allow yourself to have these flights of fancy. You have to record, you have to record the environment, take down those notes, do your measurements. If there's any kind of, evidence there

9:39 that you're kind of sussing out, which we have now, I think, to the horse case in particular or specifically, you have to focus on that. And then later on, you know, you deal with whatever it is that you're imagining in your mind because nobody else is going to deal with it. I mean, you're the person that signed up for this, right? So you can't complain about it. So, yeah, you're not looking for sympathy for it because you've elected to be in this position.

10:12 Let me ask you this because in the last days, I feel like Nancy now, in the last days, we have seen– A number of stories popping up, in particular, Joe, I need to ask you about what investigators have found that has led them into this horse house of horrors where they have used the term, they've sprayed luminol all throughout the house, Joe. A lot of us have seen luminol in TV shows. We've heard it talked about. I didn't know until you and I started working together. that you sprayed it and you had to be on your game right then because it didn't last. I thought you sprayed it and you took a video and, hey, come here, look at this.

10:56 But you're talking seconds, right?

10:57 Yeah, you have to be camera, what we refer to as camera ready. And this goes to part of the team, right? Remember how I was talking about you can have components of teams or there are various individuals within these teams that are assigned for specific tasks. I'm sorry, I didn't go into that quite enough. You've literally got somebody that might be working as a scribe you've got an evidence technician, then you've got somebody that's directing, and then you might have a photographer. And particularly when it comes to like luminol, you have to be camera ready. That means you have to have all the settings on your camera, you know, aligned.

11:36 And then after you have facilitated the application of luminol, it's going to pop really quickly. So you're going to do this in a darkened area. And they have to be prepared to snap those photos. Now, when you snap the photos, it gives you an idea of where you are at that particular time relative to that bit of evidence that is connected with blood. Because the luminol itself reacts with iron in the blood, okay? And but it only luminesces for a short period of time. Bluestar is another agent that's used. That luminescence lasts a bit longer.

12:21 But with luminol particularly, when you're snapping these images, you have to be on your game. Here's why. Because from an interpretation standpoint, I think that this is very important in this case. When you look at blood deposition, you think about it as... Do you just have this mass of blood that is there on the floor or it's luminescing with these elements in this particular area? Do you have margins to it? Does it look like maybe blood has just flowed out in that location or is this a dynamic event? where you've got somebody that's been beaten to death with a hammer, you've got somebody that is being dismembered, okay? You know, we talk about people not bleeding after death, and people do not actively bleed, okay? However,

13:20 if you have an individual that is deceased and you're going to go about dismembering the body, well, if you're using some kind of mechanically driven saw, you know, electrically driven saw, gas-powered saw, chainsaw or whatever, that adds a level of dynamicism to it, right? So it's not... If you have a body that you are dismembering, well, how is that blood deposited on those surfaces? And you can make that out. And the reason it's important that you capture those images at that moment in time is that you can actually take those back to the laboratory, okay?

14:02 You're going to expand those images and And you're going to have somebody that is really good at blood pattern recognition and interpretation. And they're going to say, okay, this is cast off or this is contact trace or, I mean, not contact trace, but this is a transfer of blood or, yeah, there is actually velocity behind this. You know, it's not just like cast off. This is like, a chainsaw going through something and it's spinning this thing off of the blade at a very high rate of speed. You've got histamine-like droplets that are being deposited all over the place.

14:43 It's fascinating to me regarding these tools that we use that involve luminescence is that you're actually unlocking these hidden things that were not meant to be seen by the perpetrator And these things that maybe they attempted to clean up, but they did a really bad job of it. Or they didn't realize that we had something that could defeat this.

15:09 That we could actually peer into what they had done. Do you realize how powerful that is? You're actually going back in time to that event that deposited that blood at that moment in time. And there's a big reveal there. And there's a big reveal in more than just one way. It's not simply... the deposition of the blood, the mystery actually lies in what is contained in that blood. Brother Dave, I wish that you would ask me a question about something regarding the scene, because I got to tell you, it's so extensive and it seems like you're biting off these huge chunks. Uh, what, what is it that you would, uh, how can I, how can I instruct you here?

16:06 Look, Joe and I go through these cases.

16:08 Okay.

16:09 And we, we do it from multiple levels. Cause you realize, you know, that we both do other shows. Joe does every network television show on crime and, uh, around the world. Um, I am Nancy Grace's monkey boy or women boy, depending on the day.

16:23 So either way you look at it, we both look at these stories.

16:26 And this one in particular has multiple angles heading into it. And I'm really curious, Joe, because when I'm looking at this case, I look at the barrel and the pipes in the basement leading out to the well, to the sewage system. And I see them law enforcement bringing in backhoes and things like that and digging up pipes. They did that early on in this investigation and now they're back at it. So to me, my sick little movie mind, you know, is this guy killing people and rendering them down in a barrel like it's, you know, breaking bad and then getting rid of the remains or the liquid pure, whatever they are, the pure and.

17:09 Putting it in the city.

17:12 Sewer.

17:13 Is that what they're actually looking for? Is that what this house is going to show?

17:19 Yeah. One of the pipes that they had removed, I think, was backed up. And I picked up on that on a recent press release, and that kind of fascinated me. Because if one of these pipes was not cleared and there was a blockage in there, you know, you can have blockage in sewer pipes. We could really get into a disgusting conversation here. I mean, we're always talking. talking about disgusting things on body packs. However, it's in degrees, right?

17:55 I'm thinking, you know, with that one pipe that was allegedly blocked, I'm really wondering if there's like, it almost looks like a core sample out of the earth. If you're, you know, if you think about somebody in geology, Or somebody in petroleum engineering that's going down to take a core sample of something and bringing it back up. It's like a huge knot in the earth. What in the world could be contained in there? Well, you've got to think that there's going to be human waste elements that are passing through there. But is there like hair, skin, teeth?

18:31 Is there anything in that particular blockage that might be there that would have value to it? This is the really disgusting part about about crime scene investigation because there are no limits as to those locations that we will look and that we will go through. You know, I was recently thinking about a case the other day. I can't remember what it was, but we were talking about discarding of medical waste. And I was thinking about the times that I went dumpster diving in two of the largest public hospitals' dumpsters ever. In the South.

19:11 I do not take you dumpster diving, Joe.

19:13 I just don't.

19:15 Yeah, you'll do crazy things. But yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, to try to reclaim.

19:18 Were you looking for food or was it an investigation? I got to know.

19:21 It was, trust me, in medical ways. Yeah. And it was Grady Hospital in Atlanta. I've done charity in New Orleans. And so, yeah, you're going back there and you're looking for these items. And so the truth is always not going to be, you know, those elements of truth are not always going to be pure and pristine. Sometimes truth lies in a very dark area. And I have to think the work that they're doing down there, Dave, in that basement, removal of pipes, these containers of sludge, which, by the way, we still to this date still don't have a result on, you know, because these things went out to Chicago to a particular lab and I'm fascinated about what that lab is and specifically what they do because they're thinking that this is some kind of rendering,

20:14 as you mentioned. And going back a couple of steps, there's so much stuff I could talk about here, but going back. I'm thinking about lye, sodium hydroxide. Found that, didn't I? Which, yeah. And he wrote about that. He wrote about it. And I can't remember which one of these, you know, this fantastic literary mind, you know, this emerged out of. I'm saying that facetiously. Please understand that. And you're creating what you're doing, what's called a dry cremation, where you're rendering down a body. Through heat, okay, and if you turn it aqueous, which means you add water to it and you want to create a sludge, then that rendering would have to be sent somewhere to your point about what is he doing with this, where is

21:04 it going. So that's one part of the investigation. And, dude, that is overwhelming for the most robust of us. Then you've got another section of this thing. where they're going back through and they're looking for trace elements contained in this house. That's why they're using luminol and the identification of any deposition of blood in this area. But Dave, I understand, is it or is it not true that they have, in fact, that they've got luminescence down there?

21:39 I mean, they have actually identified what appears to be blood down there.

21:43 They have. They have gone through, and this just was confirmed.

21:48 They've gone through the entire house, and multiple groups have done this, investigative groups.

21:54 You know, you were mentioning how people do break into, you know, teams.

21:58 And in one of those they did, they have gone through this home now and used luminol throughout. Well, I was going to say not in a specific area, but actually they know where they're going and why, and it encompasses all of it. And all I was.

22:13 Thinking, Joe, is from.

22:16 The stories we've done in the past and the different methods people have used to destroy one another. And I'm thinking of cast off, you know, blood on a ceiling, you know, and on walls. And I'm thinking of them spraying, looking for all of these things that you can't see with the naked eye. And everything's been wiped down or cleaned up or what have you. I mean, it's still a train wreck in there.

22:40 Yeah, it is. And certainly, and I like that term that you're using from the perspective of the train wreck that has been created by this person that is now dead. Right. And it's the investigators from Philly and the FBI and any other agency that they're bringing in from a consultancy, you know, to work on this thing. They're having to figure the train wreck out. And, you know, because it's all twisted and interconnected. Brother, I think a lot of this has to do with time, because this is not something that just happened over a week. Right. You're talking about years and years of layering that's going on here.

23:30 And how many how many people pass through those doors and am I correct in saying that they, he had a catalog of like, there were hundreds of women or a hundred, hundred women are approaching that number to pass through there. They're, they're talking about seven. They're actually unaccounted for, but how many, how many other ones do they not have any knowledge of? If you're going out and you're, you know, you're picking up nameless people off of the street, um, that are turning tricks or, you know, living some kind of drug addicted lifestyle on the street. Who's going to account for them? So, you know, you look at that and it gets really tangled really, really quick.

24:19 And you're actually right on it. They don't know how many, Joe. They don't know how many. It's kind of like he doesn't know what he doesn't know kind of thing. They really, the investigators here are looking at this on multiple levels. They're going through to find everything they can, but They know that they are seeing something right here that is very important, but they don't know why or who yet.

24:40 I'll give you an example.

24:42 Remember the 2009 arrest that was made that R.C. Horsch, the house in 2009 that they abandoned before they moved.

24:53 The house in Olney?

24:54 Okay. It was at that house in 2009 where they had the marijuana grow going on.

25:00 All right.

25:00 Do you know how that happened? It happened because R.C.

25:04 Horsch picked up a known prostitute and moved her in off the streets and into this house in exchange for allowing him to take nude photos of her and videos and things like that.

25:17 And that was their arrangement. You stay here. I'll feed you.

25:21 I'm assuming drugs and whatnot among you. Let me do these photos and things. And so she did. She came in and lived there for a while. The thing is, and here's the best part of this, is that one day she was paranoid. She thought somebody was trying to break into the house. She was all by herself. A horse had gone into town for something. He was part owner of a barbecue restaurant at one point in time.

25:43 So maybe he was there.

25:44 But anyway, she's all by herself and she gets scared thinking somebody's trying to break into the house and she calls 911. Well, the police show up and, you know, a drug house. looks like a drug house to people who are not in that lifestyle. They can tell this ain't right.

26:03 Something's wrong. And as they're talking to.

26:05 This woman, well, let's make sure there's nobody. Can you hear the police officers, man? You've got a woman scared to death. She's invited you in.

26:14 Well, she's domiciled there.

26:15 Yes.

26:16 And she's saying, please. So I think somebody is trying to break in and hurt me. And they're looking around going, yeah, you know what? You might be right. Why don't you let us look around for them?

26:25 Would you mind? We just want to look.

26:26 Around the entire house and any hidden places you might have.

26:31 Let us take a peek, would you? Sure, please find them. And so they did.

26:37 And that's how they found a 450 marijuana plant grow farm underway and began finding 225 pounds of explosives, right? They found all kinds of chemicals. And that's where The first big-time arrest of R.C. Horsch happened in 2009. It was because of this woman. Now, the thing was is that this is where they first started finding videos and things.

27:03 And it was in that home, Joe, when the person who owned it, the landlord, came back after R.C. Horsch was gone. And the house is now abandoned, right? And he goes in. He's got to clean it up. He's going to try to sell it.

27:17 Or rent it or whatever.

27:18 And he finds mannequins. And these mannequins appear to be staged in certain ways, positioned in certain ways. And one of the mannequins appears to be dead with a knife in its back. And that was kind of, well, I mean, if you saw, you'd be freaked out too, especially considering the guy that used to rent this place. So all of this is coming to the forefront now as they are looking through this current house of horrors in Olney.

27:48 And They're looking at R.C. Horsch's background.

27:51 And in that book, Empathy, the book is a novel supposedly, but he talks about killing people or a person, rendering them down and putting their body into the sewer system. And he basically describes the setup that law enforcement has found in the basement at the House of Horrors.

28:11 Yeah, it's a roadmap. I mean, it truly is. This is being transmitted to you through his writings. Um, and living, I mean, he's like, I don't know, uh, a modern day Marquis de Sade or something, or, or, you know, um, uh, you know, fancies himself in that way. Um, you know, I'm, I remember, I think it was a play originally, but I read or watched, uh, the film called Quills, um, had a very young Joaquin Phoenix in it. Um, And it had to do with the Marquis de Sade. And it was incredibly disturbing because, you know, you just hear you hear about sadism. You don't really think about it.

28:53 You know what the origins of it are. And I understand, you know, just from and Jeffrey Rush played the Marquis de Sade. People are familiar with him. Great actor. But, yeah, it was a very disturbing, you know, kind of really, I guess it was interesting. You know, it's Hollywood, so it's more fiction than it is fact. But, you know, you kind of get set on these rails relative. So he's living this out. Horch is kind of living this out and documenting this. And maybe he fancied himself, you know, in this light. You know, Marquis de Sade might be somebody that he idolized in life, for all we know.

29:29 And he ran the gamut, you know, DeSade did. So with that said, here's the thing that perhaps maybe he counted on it or maybe he didn't care. I don't know. But the fact that they have identified blood evidence, Dave, and have gone into this collecting it. Dave, this is going to be a big, big key. to solving the mysteries that are connected with the sky. So those remnants that Horsch left behind, you know, horribly, might be the key to how some of these people may have lost their lives. And certainly, I think more specifically, we might be able to determine who, in fact, they were. The big reveal, I think, Brother Dave, is who are these people?

30:41 Because Horsh is dead and gone now. Of course, his son is still here. But in the spirit of what we do with body bags, there's nothing we can do to go back and you know, give life back to anybody that may have died. But we need to try to determine who they are because the families, the families that are out there, Dave, this is very, this is really tragic. There are a lot of these families probably that, and that just assume that their loved one is gone.

31:20 And because the last time they saw them, they had a drug addiction problem and they were living on the streets and And as horrific as it might be, and the truth sometimes is very horrific, is that you can actually give the family answers and say, well, we found biological material at this person's house that might be connected to your loved one. So here's what I propose. That these individuals, these samples, and if these samples will have to be taken and they will have to be run and a profile will have to be developed. And, you know, we go back to this idea of forensic genetic genealogy. Oh, wow.

32:05 You're going to have to plug this into a database. And the reason this is so, such an overwhelming task is that when you have, and I mentioned this earlier, when you have this many people passing through this one structure, not to mention any other place he may have lived, right? And you can, You can have biological material that has been identified, like with luminol. Whatever remnant that there is there, you can develop, hopefully develop a DNA profile on them.

32:43 One question that comes up many times using luminol is, does it destroy the DNA? No, not in every case it doesn't. You can still find viable DNA there, the problem of destruction of DNA predates the application of the luminol because the older the sample, the more degraded it may have already become prior to the application of luminol.

33:18 So you can't say that application of luminol ruined the sample. The sample may have been ruined, but there was still enough there to to pick up on the iron content, you know, there in the book.

33:32 But what do you think, with everything you've seen this week, Joe, with all of the big stuff rolling in, and there's been a lot, what does it mean to you? Because you're looking at this from a much different standpoint than those of us who just follow crime, you know? I mean, you're looking at it, and when you see those things roll in there, it means something different to you.

33:50 So beyond the.

33:51 Luminol, what are you seeing, and what does it tell you about the scene and what they're looking for?

33:57 I think that they have some indication that there's something there. And I can't say this for a fact, but I think the wellspring of that knowledge might be the son. Okay. Because he's, he's had a front row seat to this horror show and it is literally a horror show. All right. So in thinking about that, and I don't know, I don't know for a fact that he has given them any kind of direct information like, This girl was here, okay?

34:29 Or this girl was here, or this happened to this individual. They're not going to invest this kind of time and money into an extensive investigation, which is extensive. And here's another thing to this. This is why the feds are involved in it. We all know, God bless our friends in the city of brotherly love, they get troubles, okay?

34:56 They got cases that are fresh cases that are happening every single day. They are strained to the max up there. There is something about this case where they're throwing all of these resources at it. Now, I think that that's the one thing you need to focus on here. Because, brother, there's nobody left to prosecute unless the son has allegedly had his hand on some of this, okay, in some way. So, I hate to break it down to you know, economics here.

35:28 But if you've got these kind of resources, and this ain't cheap, man, where you've got an entire group of FBI personnel that are out there, they're bringing all of their gear and equipment with them. They're being, you know, unless they're from the field office in Philly, which they probably are, you're having to, and this is a 24-7 event.

35:51 It's not like Fred Flintstone where they're going to pull the thing, the timer goes off and everybody goes home at the end of the day. This is something that's 24-7, that is being worked. It has to continue to be worked. And when you talk about heavy equipment, well, what does that mean that they're doing? Are they going in there and they're going to start trenching out areas all around the property? Are they actually pulling down the foundational walls and In the basement? Have they gone in and put some kind of bracing down below to continue to hold the house in place while they're going to the periphery, you know, to kind of dig out in that subterranean area down there? Are there holes? Are there actually holes

36:36 in the floor of this area down there that they're going back into? Maybe they've done probes into the ground. to see if there is anything like methane probes where you inject it into the ground or you put the sensor into the ground and you see if anything is buried underneath the floor of the basement at all. There's so many outcomes with this. And every one of these potential victims down there has a different story to tell.

37:11 Their points of origin and not to mention how did they come to their end. We And without the physical evidence that you need in order to make that conclusion, I don't know that we will ever know that. However, we could say that this individual at some point in time had occupied the space because we've got DNA that's left behind. That's what the end game is here. The other thing I'm thinking about is that was Horsch, listen to me very carefully, was Horsch connected to anybody else that was a principal in this, that was involved in this?

37:51 Is this a network of people? Because he's, this guy's into production, right? Allegedly. You know, we've heard the term snuff film thrown out there. Did he have people that was doing, that were facilitating funding for him for anything? Because, you know, you've got another investigation that's going to be going on parallel to this one that will involve all of his financials. acquisition of equipment, you know, all of that kind of stuff is going to play into this.

38:21 So this thing is a lot bigger, I think, than just the scene itself where they're out there looking at all of this. You've got this histrionics that's connected with all of it for years now that this has gone on. And people have, I'll put it, yeah, I can say this clearly. People have known about this. They might not know about what went on in the basement, but they had this they had this codex that he had created relative to what he was doing, you know, or what his interests were. And then you've got these other events relative to people that had been through there, that had had their photos taken. They're too scared to talk to the cops. It is a huge web, Dave.

39:10 Yeah, it reminds me of, you know, almost every neighborhood has a house, you know, that Don't go by there on Halloween. You skip that house. Because, you know, Rex Huerman might live there. Because that was the case at his house.

39:22 Yeah.

39:24 And the house in Olney was the same way. The people who lived around there, they knew that's the dirty porn gallery. He didn't hide, Joe.

39:32 R.C.

39:32 Horsch was very public.

39:34 He made movies, and they're listed on imdb.com, for crying out loud. One of his movies is called Poor. And the thing is, is that as police have investigated... They've got pictures of, you know, we've told you over a million pictures of people that have been in that house. And they're trying to figure out how many of them are dead because they got pictures of.

39:57 Some that look dead. And thankfully, they have found.

40:00 One woman in particular comes to mind that investigators thought they were looking for a corpse, you know, or looking for some sign of her death. And they found her alive. She was just in hiding because she feared R.C. Horsch and his son, Eugene. So the thing is, is that we do have I mentioned the movie Horror. The woman that is pictured in that on the cover of that movie, she was a part of R.C. Horsh's world for 20 years.

40:29 He actually used her as the star of that movie. And in it, she was a drug addict and he filmed her shooting up drugs, filmed her doing all sorts of things that were degrading and dehumanizing. But that was the life she was living at the time. And you know what she said, Joe? Her biggest fear was Eugene.

40:49 Because even though R.C.

40:50 Horsch was in his 80s and on his deathbed, Eugene Horsch lost his mind. He just has no control over his anger. And he came after this woman. And if not for R.C. Horsch getting off his deathbed and stopping Eugene from killing this woman, she thought for sure she was dead. And so police are using that as a means to look even further into Eugene.

41:15 Okay. All right. I'm glad you revealed that to me because I got to tell you, I'm thinking, you know, for that one, she's one example that you brought up, right? I really wonder how many other women there are like her that have been discovered that are still in the land of the living that have revealed things to the investigators.

41:40 You know, because while I was, you know, and this is just a for instance, this is merely a hypothetical. While I was there, I saw two other women in the house on this given date. And then all of a sudden they were gone and I heard screams or whatever the case might be. Or he revealed these fantasies he had in his mind that he would really like to do this fatal thing to me. And so is that unlocking a door, you know, for investigators? You know, relative to that, couple that with the son. Lord only knows.

42:16 And plus, you know, if he in on any level, you've got drug addicted individuals. If he is going out and facilitating the purchase of illicit substances, those individuals can be brought into into the mix, too, from an investigative. You know, who was he sourcing drugs from in order to feed the habits of these individuals? That he's trying to entice in, you know, step right up, you know, come into my house of horrors. I've got something for you.

42:46 You know, who was who was doing all that? So the the degree to which the complexity, I think, of this investigation is is a bit overwhelming. And it's going to continue to play out, you know, because first off, when and I think that they will, I think that they will. they start to develop these DNA profiles from this blood. That's a whole new realm that will open up for everybody that's involved in this. If they go out there and they develop a profile on that specific sample that they recovered because of the DNA, I mean, because of the luminol luminescing there, then each one of those stories will have to be told individually. And we don't know how many people we're talking about at this point in time. They keep saying, you know, they've thrown

43:42 out a couple of numbers. But when you're talking about, what was it, Dave? It's like you said a million a minute ago. It's like over 600,000 still images. Then you've got videography.

43:56 There's over a million pieces of data, of digital data.

43:59 Yeah, yeah. And I can't even get my mind. How do you have time to generate all of that? You know, but this is this was a lifestyle, you know, for him and I guess for his son as well. I don't know. I got to tell you, we're going to stay on this case. So, Dave, our cases, which I'm of a mind that this that these are cases and see what the blood is going to reveal, because I think that they're in in those tiny little molecules that still exist after all this time. It could be revelatory moving forward with these cases. We're going to stay on top of this, and we'll keep you informed. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bag.