Revisiting: Raphael Saadiq

0:15 Pushkin. Rafael Sadiq is one of the great R & B writers and producers of the last 30 years. He started out writing and playing bass in the group Tony Tony Tony with his brother Dwayne Wiggins on guitar. The Tonys had an amazing four-album run from 88 through 96, with hit singles like It Never Rains in Southern California, Feels Good, Anniversary, and If I Had No Lou. Since the group's disbanded, Raphael's released five solo albums, starting with 2002's Instant Vintage. His most recent, Jimmy Lee, is a collection of very personal songs about the traumas he and his family experienced growing up in Oakland, California. But Raphael's also done some amazing work behind the board. He's produced and written for the likes of D'Angelo, TLC, Mary J. Blige, Solange, Earth,

1:04 Wind & Fire, and just recently worked on a handful of songs on Beyonce's Cowboy Carter album. That's all in addition to his work as an Academy Award-nominated film composer. It was a real honor to speak with Rafael Sadiq from his studio in Los Angeles about some of the incredible work he's done the last handful of years with Beyoncé and Solange, breaking down his collaboration with D'Angelo on the classic track Lady, plus discussing the underrated influence of Sly Stone bassist Larry Graham on a whole generation of musicians coming up in the Bay Area. This is Broken Record.

1:40 Line of notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richmond. Here's my conversation with Rafael Sadiq. To see the full video version of this episode, go to youtube.com slash broken record podcast. Man, Rafael, thanks so much for having us. You're beautiful. I mean, this is one of the, I've been to a lot of studios. This is one of the best.

2:00 Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, this is where it happens for me.

2:06 How long have you been here?

2:09 I've been here 20 i think 20 years now working out of here working out here for 20 years yeah wow.

2:16 So that would have been i guess ray ray maybe after ray ray you started doing your projects here.

2:24 No i think i did ray ray here so maybe it was longer wow was it.

2:30 Not instant vintage though instant vintage.

2:32 Oh so maybe i didn't i forget which song which album came first now but i think i did ray ray was second So I did the last song on Instant Vintage. There's a hidden track at the end of every record that I do.

2:48 Yes.

2:49 So at the end of Instant Vintage, they gave me the keys to the studio. And so I came in. I had an MP-60, and I just dropped the drum machine on the desk, and I wrote the very last song to Instant Vintage.

3:06 Wow. Yeah. I want, I want to ask you about that too. How did that tradition start? Because actually I met one of my favorite cuts of yours is the hidden track on stone rolling.

3:19 Is that with Larry Graham?

3:21 It's the one with Larry Graham.

3:22 Yeah.

3:22 It's ridiculous. Yeah.

3:24 We did that right here.

3:25 Really?

3:25 It's recorded right where you're sitting. Me and me and Larry was here right here. Um, Larry's a, you know, I mean, that's my, my guy. I've, Raised in the same neighborhood in Oakland that he lived in. So we met through some people, and I invited him to the studio and said, I got this song. It was hard for me to actually work around him to play bass.

3:53 It seemed like I can't really play bass when he's around.

3:55 Really? Yeah.

3:57 He's the only person I'm around that I lock up when he comes around.

4:02 Kind of like playing guitar in front of Hendrix or something. Yeah. It's like that level of, you know. Yeah. Hard to imagine because Hendrix isn't here, but like, you know, Larry's still around.

4:10 Yeah, Larry's around. He's still great.

4:13 Did you play bass on that?

4:14 Or was that him? Oh, no, that's Larry.

4:16 That's what I thought because it really has that. I didn't know if you were going for that.

4:19 No, he's a big boy. He plays big boy bass. You notice when he's playing the difference between just the years, you can feel like his... something in his fingers is just different.

4:33 Yeah. He sounded great too. Oh yeah.

4:36 He made me sound like I was like a chipmunk when I, when my voice comes on and then his voice comes on, he.

4:43 Just came on.

4:43 I was like, Oh wow.

4:46 But it has that age. Like you're talking about. Yeah.

4:48 You can't, you can't, I've been around a couple of singers and, and that's what happened. I've, I've, I've sang around Charlie Wilson and, And I was singing his song, and he came in on the other part of it, and it just sounded like apples and oranges.

5:03 What was the occasion for that?

5:05 It was some award show, and it was a lot of different artists singing. And Charlie was singing, and we did Outstanding. I think we did a couple songs. But he came on, and you could just tell the age, the years that he put into it.

5:22 Yeah.

5:23 And Stevie. Stevie. I've sang around Stevie before. Then I heard him sing like right after me. And it was just sounding like, I was like, wow, this is those pipes, you know, it's just those years, you know, like that working that muscle.

5:38 Yeah.

5:39 And this is really strong.

5:40 You know, I don't know if you'll ever get there by the way, either. Cause you saying too much shape, man, you're, you're in too good a shape to really ever let your pipes ever shown these signs.

5:48 But I think they're in shape. They're like in vocal shape.

5:52 There's two different types of shapes.

5:54 Your lungs, your pipes, they can hold notes longer than anybody. CeeLo Green is another person who can... I watched him sing Lovely Day one time, and he went, A lovely day. And he was looking at me. I was in Chicago at House of Blues, and I was right above him. And he said, A lovely day. And he was just looking at me, and it was going forever. And I was going, how does he do that? So I just think that's those... those pipes, you know, those age pipes of, of, you know, working that muscle.

6:28 And CeeLo too, just from, I mean, and Stevie too. I mean, Stevie has, of course, something like special, but CeeLo just has just such a, um, just born with some pipes that are just fascinating.

6:39 He's a, he's a one of a kind. We always see each other in Atlanta somewhere and say, we're going to work together. That's one person I do. It'll be easy for me to work with because he's so soulful and I love soulful music too. So, um, I'm waiting for that matchup. That's the perfect matchup for me.

6:57 You should definitely do that. You should, you should do a full Larry project too, man.

7:03 Yeah, that'll be, that'll be cool. I mean, we, I used to, I used to, when those records used to come out in my neighborhood, it would be a line in front of the store to buy, um, Grand Central Station's records. It was, cause he was more like a superhero to, to most in Oakland. I don't know about everywhere else, but, You know, I would see people lining up at this store called, a record store called House of Music. It was one of the Tony's records.

7:30 Yeah.

7:30 House of Music. I titled the album House of Music because of that store.

7:34 But I was just close. It was not that long ago.

7:36 Yeah. Right. And I was too young to go in that store in the beginning because, you know, they had all these black posters, you know, the black suede posters with black pussy and pussy incense.

7:46 Pam Grier looking.

7:47 You know, like, Teddy's Everywhere, incense.

7:49 Yeah.

7:51 And you know, when you go in the store and you're like eight years old, you're like, Oh wow. But then you see like, you know, James Brown soundtracks, uh, black Caesar, black Caesar, you know? So yeah, but Larry, it was definitely a line. So when, now when I'm working or something and I'm talking to somebody, rest in peace, John, um, John, he was always talking about, um, John Singleton about, um, Comic books. And so I was never privy to being in those conversations about comic books because I wasn't into comic books. My comic books was Larry Graham, Grand Central Station, Parliament, Funkadelic.

8:32 The Funkadelic records.

8:33 The album covers.

8:34 Pedro Bell did all that artwork.

8:36 Yeah.

8:36 That's ridiculous. That's interesting. I wonder because Larry Graham, I spent some time living in Oakland. And so I happen to know how much love the Bay has for Larry. It does feel like maybe elsewhere Bootsy is kind of.

8:49 The, the, the one that gets, but Larry's.

8:53 Yeah.

8:53 Larry's, Larry's Steph Curry in Oakland. Yes.

8:57 Yes. Sure. That's a great, that's a great comparison. He really is. He really is. Was that, was he your inspiration to pick up the bass?

9:05 My inspiration to pick up the bass came from, um, my neighborhood. It was so many bass players and guitar players and, uh, um, bass, he was the biggest influence once I picked it up because he did things that nobody was doing. And so you, if you couldn't do what he was doing, you couldn't really walk into like a jam session and jump on the drums because the drummer was going to challenge you, you know, and see like, you know, you know how to play a pile. And if you didn't know how to play pile, then you couldn't be in the room. So he was the bar.

9:43 He's always the bar. Another guy in Oakland to play for the Hawkins family, Walter Hawkins and Edwin Hawkins.

9:48 Oh, happy day.

9:49 Yeah, Daniel Hawkins, Lynette Hawkins, Tremaine Hawkins. But the guy is Joel Smith. He was the other Steph Curry in Oakland. I have a huge piece of art that I had somebody.

10:07 Okay.

10:09 In there. With the bass?

10:10 I was wondering, is that Stanley, like a young Stanley Clark? I've never seen him with a P bass.

10:14 That's Joel Smith.

10:15 Joel Smith.

10:16 He's an amazing drummer. He was an amazing drummer and an amazing bass player. I looked up to him more than anybody.

10:24 That's interesting because I almost was going to ask you too if it was Rusty Allen. He always got the hat on, but it kind of looked like him.

10:29 No, it's not Rusty. But Rusty is a beast. Rusty should get way more props than he does.

10:34 Yeah.

10:35 Because those Sly records that he played on, I'm still studying those records.

10:40 They're crazy.

10:40 Matter of fact, I just called somebody to try and find Rusty's phone number. Really? So I just want to hang out with him.

10:46 I think I have his email.

10:47 Really?

10:47 Yeah. Okay. I can shoot that to you. I'm pretty sure. Okay.

10:50 Yeah.

10:51 Yeah, he's ridiculous. I don't want, like, I almost feel like, you know, and I love Larry and I love Grand Central Station. But some of those slide records got even better once, like.

11:01 He did. He did kill it. I mean, I never want to say that. That's, like, sacrilegious for me to say anything about Larry. But I have to say, that Fresh record. And then he was like, if you listen to him play with Bobby Womack, Yeah, right. Rusty, his choice selection on bass is crazy. Bass is just a crazy instrument, man. You can fill up church and a lot of those Donny Hathaway records, the bass is a lot to know, a lot to learn. I love bass a lot. I'm always listening to music in my car and just so amazed on how many great bass players there really are.

11:52 There's some great ones, man. Pino, another who you've worked with a lot.

11:56 Yeah. Pino comes by sometime and we just have a bass off. One time we made a bass record. It was just me and him. It was no other instruments but bass. I don't know where it's at.

12:07 Y'all didn't put that out though, did you?

12:09 No. Pino just pops in sometimes when he's not traveling with some big rock band or something.

12:15 Yeah, with the Who or whatever.

12:16 With the Who. He's like, yeah, I got to learn 78 songs in two hours for the Who tour. I'm like, damn.

12:22 Do you ever want to do anything like that? A tour with somebody else? Be like a sideman for just like a year?

12:27 I'd rather be a sideman.

12:29 Really?

12:30 Trust me, if the Stones were to call me like 15 years ago before the bass player they have now.

12:33 Before what? Daryl? Daryl, yeah.

12:35 Man, I'd be gone. I wouldn't even did my second album.

12:39 For real? I'd be out.

12:41 What? I'm on bus, I'm on jet. I'm out.

12:44 It's done. Someone's got to hit you up now, man.

12:46 No, it's an adventure just happening. It's done. I'm out of solo stuff. I've never done it. I've been gone.

12:50 It's so funny. Dude, speaking of which, you performed with Mick on the Grammys in 2011. I did. And that's the best I've heard Mick sound outside of the Stones.

13:00 Really?

13:00 Wow. Like the way y'all did that Solomon Burke song.

13:03 Yeah, yeah. He's an amazing dude. Like he, I mean, he just came in and I wasn't supposed to play, you know, because to play on the Grammys, you have to be nominated to even to play, even to assist another person. That's sort of the rules, I guess.

13:22 Got it.

13:23 Some bullshit rules, whatever, whatever. But Mick called me and said, I want you to play with me at the Grammys. So we never really told the Grammys. Somebody may have told them maybe a few days before. They found out. But what can they say? They can't say nothing. Mick plays stadiums. He don't need to play the Grammys.

13:44 No one say no to Mick.

13:45 Right.

13:45 Yeah. Did you know him like that?

13:48 No.

13:48 No.

13:50 No, he just, I think he heard Stone Rolling, the album Don was, is a really good friend of his.

13:53 Yeah.

13:54 And I think that's how the affiliation happened. But it was right. I mean, it was fun. I mean, I had a lot of questions for him, you know.

14:05 Did you ask him? Yeah, of course.

14:07 Yeah, we talked about, you know, Holland Wolf. Wow. We just talked about those Chess Records days and, you know, I'm a huge Holland Wolf fan. And so he told me about it. All kind of stuff. He pulled out his harp. We played blues at the rehearsals. We had more fun at the rehearsals, like, for four or five days than we did playing, you know, at the Grammys.

14:31 But it was really cool. He was a real cool dude.

14:33 It showed up on the Grammys, though, man. Oh, yeah, yeah.

14:35 It was fun.

14:36 It really did. It really did, man.

14:38 The band, I had the guys I had. Like, those guys are hard.

14:40 Yeah, who was in the band?

14:41 Because that's who I think I had. Calvin Turner, Joss on bass. Joss Smith is a blues guy. guitar man himself. I'm Lamar, Lamar Carter on drums. And I had Rob Bacon on guitar, which is a Detroit boy. Who's a, a blues guy, fun guy. Um, I think I had four horn players. I think maybe I had a Barry trumpet sax bone. I had BJ singing background, Erica, Jerry singing Charles, uh, play keys but that band that was probably my best man that was my best man they were fire yeah so you know they all big you know mick fans so i think they play better for mick than they play for me i was looking back sometime like.

15:34 Hey oh it's so funny man Um, and you got some, yeah, those guys too. Lamar, you mentioned he was on the Stone Rolling album.

15:43 He was.

15:43 Some of those drum sounds y'all got.

15:45 Yeah, he was on the record. Um, Calvin played on the record. They're actually on the picture too. It's me, Calvin, and Lamar in the picture.

15:53 Are you in the picture?

15:55 No, not the one in the front, but there's a picture in the back that plays to the back, um, that we took this little picture. It is not highly publicized, but yeah, we did that. Um, they played on a song called... Moving down the line.

16:09 Yeah.

16:11 But most of the record was played by me on drums.

16:14 Really?

16:14 Yeah, I play drums most of all the way I see it. Wow. And most of Stone Rolling.

16:22 So when did you, because it's funny, I always think of you more as a bass player. It seems like you've become more of a guitar player maybe over the years. But drums too? When did that happen?

16:37 I think I picked up the drums the same time I picked up the bass. But I'm not a great drummer or nothing like that. I can put together a beat in a record, but you wouldn't want me in your band. But in the studio, yeah, you want me in the studio because I play these beats that fit the vibe of what I'm doing. And sometimes it shifts.

16:57 It gets a little off. And so it's sort of like that on the record. So Lamar, when he plays my records over, he plays the mistakes.

17:07 Really?

17:07 That I make. And I'm like, just play it like you would play it.

17:10 But he likes it.

17:11 Yeah, no, he's being funny.

17:12 Oh, he's fucking with you?

17:13 Yeah, he's fucking with me. No, definitely.

17:15 That's fucked up, man. Yeah, he's like.

17:18 I'm like, bro, come on, bro.

17:22 That's funny. Speaking of that little vibe, I was thinking about it. And I was thinking about the D'Angelo records and Brown Sugar. I've heard Questlove say that... maybe y'all asked him to play on the first record or something and he wasn't feeling it or maybe he, like, I don't know, maybe he'd heard about it and he was just kind of a little dismissive because he wasn't there with R & B. But then he heard the album and loved, like, the drum sound and, like, just the groove y'all locked into. And I feel like that groove a little later kind of got associated with Dilla, who's a genius, of course, as well. But that kind of was, like, y'all's, not that it's a competition, but kind of early on, that was kind of y'all's Yeah, I.

18:07 Think me and D'Angelo have the same background in gospel, which is the Hawkins family. We both grew up listening to Walter, Ed, Daniel, and Joe. And we didn't know that when we first got together, but we figured it out.

18:24 Well, it's kind of random. I mean, you were in the Bay.

18:27 I was in the Bay. He was in Virginia. But, you know, that music sort of was all around the world. Like, really... Andre Crouch was more of the bigger pop gospel, but the Hawkins family was the more grit, you know, but that was that. So somehow it got to Virginia and it got to his house. His dad's a great piano player, D'Angelo's dad. So it just sort of happened. We got in the studio, we was making music and we were.

19:00 How did y'all even meet?

19:02 We met through... we met through an, um, A & R from a publishing company. We were signed to the same publishing company. So somebody introduced us and, um, the first time we met, D was supposed to come to my house and he didn't show up the first day. And then he came the next day, but I think he thought, you know, he was going to come to a house and it was going to look like the, uh, the rich and famous probably with a spiral stairs and helpers, everybody in the house.

19:36 And yeah, it's like, I'm going to Tony, Tony, Tony's house.

19:39 But, but when he's asking me a lot of people, he don't really like a lot of people, you know, then he found out I don't need it. So when he got to my, my little two bedroom, you know, $ 235, 000 crib, what, you know, it was in the garage. It was me, him and my engineer.

19:55 Where at?

19:56 In Sacramento.

19:56 In Sac? Oh wow. Yeah.

19:58 And, um, I lived in this neighborhood full of lobbies and politicians, right? And he was just so surprised. He didn't tell me later on. He said, I thought this house was going to be crowded with a lot of people. And it wasn't. And so I started playing lady. That's the first thing we worked on was Lady.

20:22 You had that already? Yeah. Wow.

20:24 I had the idea, because it was supposed to be for Tony's record, the idea.

20:29 For House of Music, maybe?

20:31 Yeah, they didn't like it. They didn't like the initial idea. They never heard what it was going to be. Neither did I.

20:39 But I.

20:41 Played the guitar riff for D'Angelo, and he said, I like it. I said, cool. So I was going to call somebody over to record. to play my guitar parts over. He, he said, no, you should leave what you did. And that's the first time my guitar playing, playing ever got on the record.

21:00 Wow.

21:01 Ever got on a record.

21:02 Yeah.

21:02 So, but I think the, how, how we came up with that, we figured it out. We were, we were, we were playing and we were playing behind the beat, but I think we were just really trying to lock, lock something in. And so he would, fall back and he would start laughing. Then I would fall back and we started kind of smiling and laughing and it became, we just kept going back and forth, but not talking about it. And it became sort of the style of his record, but that's the way he sings. That's the way he plays. Wow. And it was just natural for him, but he's a Dilla fan.

21:38 Yeah.

21:38 And so then, you know, I'm a Dilla fan too. So I figured it out later. We were just mocking Dilla.

21:45 Really? That early? Like that early on?

21:47 I think Dilla was the first one.

21:49 Okay.

21:50 Or we heard it through hip-hop.

21:52 Yeah, right. Maybe it's just not Dilla.

21:54 Maybe we heard it on some Wu-Tang records. Maybe we heard it on some Tribe records.

21:59 Yeah.

22:00 We just love, I love hip-hop.

22:02 Yeah.

22:03 Right? So I think both our love for the Hawks is in gospel and hip-hop and rock and songwriting. It was just the perfect storm at the right time.

22:15 The way you explain it, it's perfect that y'all met. Yeah. Because it really is the right combo of everything.

22:22 I mean, I just talked to him yesterday. And we don't talk much. You know what I mean? And it's hard to catch either one of us. But yesterday we caught up and was like, yo, you picked up. I picked up and said, I didn't expect you to pick up. But I was going to leave you a message about your field. on keys because now I'm practicing keys, like, you know, piano a lot.

22:44 Yeah.

22:45 And since I've been studying it, I always knew what he knew on piano, but now it's really, I really know. Like, his touch, his approach to piano was different from most gospel piano players because Dee sort of graduated from church. He didn't make records and get locked into, like, playing a whole bunch of chords like church guys do.

23:06 Yeah.

23:07 He's, like, really figured out his place with songwriting and his touch and his feel yeah and it's different and that's why i called him we were just laughing about that.

23:19 Because you did you send him some stuff or like.

23:22 No we he heard stuff that i got and he you know we we always go back and forth but he he got some records he that he he's excited about and you.

23:31 Know we always just send us some stuff so you sent us no no no.

23:34 He was here he came here okay one day um He played the Hollywood Bowl, and I played guitar with him.

23:40 Yeah, right.

23:41 And he came in here afterwards, and we just pressed play and played records. And he's playing guitar now, and he's playing bass, and he's funky as hell right now.

23:54 Man, I like seeing him play guitar on that last tour.

23:56 He's a bad boy. Yeah, he's a bad boy. And Q-Tips is getting good on bass. Really? He's getting good on bass. Shahid is really good on bass.

24:06 Oh, shit.

24:07 You know oh shit yeah adrian young is getting good on bass all my friends that didn't play they all pretty good now did adrian never play he played but now i heard him play like maybe two weeks ago on the record i was like man who's playing on the record i said wow i said you i said you was playing you know maybe two years ago but now I wouldn't have known that was you.

24:32 Wow.

24:33 So, you know, I love to see people putting in the work.

24:36 That's a huge compliment from you.

24:37 Yeah, they putting in the work.

24:39 That's wild. We'll be right back with more from Raphael Sadiq after this break. We're back with Raphael Sadiq. You know, it's funny. You mentioned that you brought Lady to the Tonys. I was curious about when you kind of left the Tonys, you switched to guitar. Like, how your brother Dwayne felt about that? Because he was kind of the guitar, like, was there like a little friction with that? Or like, did he look at you like, you know, you're playing with Mick Jagger on the, playing guitar with Mick Jagger at the Grams. Like, come on, dog.

25:16 Actually, I wouldn't even know. I wouldn't even know. But when you're going to be a frontman, I like frontmans that play guitars, not bass. I mean, I love like Larry, that plays bass. It's hard to play bass and sing Bootsy, Level 42.

25:33 Yeah.

25:33 The Rush guy, I guess. But you got to really be, I've played bass on one tour as a front, as a singer in the front. It's not easy. It's fun, but it's not easy. I'd rather, I want somebody to dig in on the bass when I'm singing.

25:51 Yeah, right.

25:52 So I have to have the guy that relieves me on bass got to be like, That dude, you know.

25:56 How'd you pick the dude for the recent Tony's tour?

26:01 How did I, I seen him play, I think I found him on Instagram.

26:06 Really?

26:07 I seen him play Josh.

26:09 Wow.

26:10 Yeah, Josh, he's a bad boy too. And he used to play with MPG. But I didn't know that at the time.

26:16 You just found him and just.

26:18 I found him at the time and I knew he was solid. You know, you just need somebody solid that's, They got chops, but they also know how to play, you know, be solid.

26:31 Did you consider doing the tour, like bass on the tour or nah?

26:35 Oh, no, I never even, because I've never played bass on a Tony's tour. Never. I've never even played guitar.

26:43 But you're on the records.

26:45 I played all the records.

26:46 Yeah.

26:47 Yeah.

26:47 And you just, same reason, you just didn't want, you wanted to be, because you're leading. Yeah.

26:51 I didn't think I could do it, honestly, to be honest. I didn't think I could do it. I didn't think that, you know, syllables and rhythms, you know, sometimes when you sing a word in a syllable, sometimes your fingers go with it.

27:04 Yeah.

27:05 So you have to separate, like a drummer, you have to separate that part. I could do it. I've done it. I've done a tour with me, Rob Bacon. Rob was on guitar, I was on bass. I forgot the drummer and Kelvin wouldn't play keys. And it was fun. It was, you know, less people, more money for me. Right.

27:27 Yeah. One less player. You gotta, you gotta pay. How do you separate? I mean, you've like, man, you've been on a, a hell of a run lately with the, with composing and writing and producing these days. Like how are you spending your time? Like musically? Like, are you, Are you writing a lot?

27:49 I spend my time right there on that piano.

27:52 This piano?

27:53 Yeah, I spend most of my time on the piano. I haven't recorded anything in maybe close to six months. I said, I just want to practice and just play and not just loop everything. Because when you're recording now and you're in Ableton, you just loop everything and you never get any practice time on any instrument. so I'm just doing a lot of listening to, you know, a lot of Donnie, a lot of Earthwind, a lot of, um, going to shows. I just want to, you know, concerts and figuring out when I'm a tour again in 25 and, and just figuring out a lot of keyboard stuff, listening to songs that I really love and learning how to play them and, and just knowing, you know, um, Learning what I'm playing. You know, I'm taking piano lessons. I

28:47 take piano lessons three days a week.

28:49 Wow.

28:51 I take classical pianos. I haven't played not one full classical piece yet, but because I'm starting from the.

28:57 Very, very beginning. And are you reading or are you writing?

28:59 Reading, everything, yeah.

29:00 Wow.

29:00 So I played first bone in school. I played trombone in high school.

29:04 So you've been reading.

29:05 We was cheating in school.

29:06 That's why.

29:07 We was writing down the positions, you know, one, two, four. We knew, you know, I could read bass clef pretty good then. But, you know, you don't use it, you lose it.

29:19 Yeah, that's true.

29:20 So it's from the beginning now. Wow.

29:23 What made you want to like woodshed right now? Like what was the impetus for that? Like was there like a moment where you're like, ah, man, like.

29:30 I got bored. I mean, I just, I love, I love piano. I love chords. I love voice teams. And I just want, I want to have so much artillery in. to write, to grab from. Like I can hear everything. I can hear it, but I just want to be able to go to it in like two seconds. so my nephew he plays piano Dylan and he's from another another world yeah yeah he can he could pick up anything learn anything and that just I always tell him to not Don't stop because he's doing pretty good. He's done a lot of records. He worked with a lot of people. And because he's so talented that, you know, you can stop playing your main instrument. His main instrument is piano, but he plays guitar, drums. His little brother, Jaden,

30:22 he plays bass. He's funky as hell. He's been playing like Larry Graham songs since he was like nine years old.

30:27 What?

30:28 And talking like Larry, acting like him.

30:30 Uh-oh. That's an issue.

30:31 Yeah, the whole thing. So. You know, when you're in the industry, you just don't want to fall off the instrument that you love. And so I always tell him, like, are you practicing? You know, are you practicing? Don't stop because you got a record out with this person, this person. Keep playing. So I took some of my own advice and jumped on the piano, looked on Google, found this piano teacher. Kristen, it was the Tahonga Pianos. I found it. I thought she was in Tahonga. No, Topanga Canyon pianos. And she was actually in Seattle. So I like have a screen here. I mean, a camera here, a camera here, a camera here. I'm an upright piano.

31:16 In the back. Oh, OK. You're zooming on that.

31:19 I'm zooming.

31:20 Yeah.

31:20 And it's been really cool. So I haven't written any music. But when I start writing music, I think it's going to be a little different.

31:30 You have a whole new bag to pull from. Yeah.

31:33 Because now I'm playing like stylistic songs. I'm going over all the songs that I used to play. Some of the best writers were, you know, piano players.

31:42 Yeah. So what are you like? What are the ones, what are the songs that stand out for you as a, what were the songs that you loved growing up? Oh, that, that, that are also like incredible piano songs.

31:52 It's going to sound redundant, but that's why I started listening to the Hawkins family because I felt like all those records, if I learned those records, just, almost everything I wanted to know. But then I would say, like, you know, Tom Bell and The Creed, you know, very good piano songs. And it falls right in place with all, like, The Spinners and The Delphonics, The Stylics, all those people.

32:16 And then Earth, Wind & Fire, I was definitely all over the Gratitudes albums, the live album.

32:23 Did you ever see them in the day?

32:25 I didn't see the Gratitude tour, no.

32:27 Okay.

32:27 But I saw... Funk on the Green. I saw Parliament. I saw Bernie Burrell play live. I saw Tower of Power live. I saw Bob Marley and the Wailers.

32:42 You did? Mm-hmm.

32:43 The Berkeley Greek.

32:44 Wow. I don't think I've met anybody that saw. I met one person one time that had tickets and they didn't go for some reason. I was like, what a mistake.

32:52 Oh, I didn't have tickets. I was just on a bike, riding a bike from East Oakland.

32:57 Just.

32:58 to Berkeley just being some bad kids just riding so far from home and we were just riding around and I heard this reggae music and my friends kept going on the bike and I stopped and I'm looking through the fence and I'm like what is that and I could see Bob Marley and and I just stayed there I never left.

33:18 Did you know Bob Marley at the time yeah I.

33:20 Knew who he was I didn't know much about I knew who he was but I didn't leave I just stayed there by the fence I watched through the fence That's incredible. Yeah. So I'm a huge Wailers, you know, I mean, the bass playing from Family Man is the naughtiest.

33:39 Yeah.

33:40 I like rhythm sections like Brothers, like the rhythm section with him and Family Man and his brother on drums.

33:45 Yeah.

33:45 It's the tightest drum section. I would say I would put them neck and neck with the James Brown rhythm section.

33:54 Wow.

33:56 It's different, but it's tight.

33:57 That's a hell of a... I know. I'm going to have to go back and listen for that specific.

34:02 Oh, man. It's crazy. Then I'll go to Verdine and Freddie.

34:08 Yeah.

34:10 Those are my rhythm sections.

34:12 Yeah.

34:13 The Bob rhythm section, Earth, Wind & Fire's rhythm section, and James.

34:18 Wow.

34:19 And, of course, James Jamerson.

34:21 Yeah, right. Motown. Motown. Yeah. You worked with Earth, Wind & Fire. And with like when Maurice was still. I did.

34:29 I had a chance to work with Maurice.

34:30 Maurice White.

34:30 Talked to Maurice White a lot.

34:34 What was that like? That was scary, man. Yeah.

34:37 That was scary working with Maurice. I mean, they all walked in the room. Three of them. Phillip.

34:44 Phillip Bailey.

34:45 Phillip Bailey, Maurice White, and Ralph Johnson.

34:48 Dope. Yeah.

34:50 They walked in the room and I was super nervous. But they're really nice. And so much history. You could feel the history when they walk in the room. You could just feel that. Like, like we just, we bad. We bad boys. Like we, we, we bring it.

35:07 Yeah.

35:08 He was a band leader. You know, he was a band leader guy. And then. Yeah.

35:12 What was the dynamic? How was, how was Maurice's dynamic in the room with.

35:16 He produced me. He produced me to produce.

35:18 Yeah.

35:19 Yeah. yeah that's crazy like when i was singing um uh i was singing the falsetto part on show me the way and he told me to and to tell in and just kick the reverb a little bit higher it's a producing tip damn yeah from the best.

35:37 From definitely from the best especially for the back like if it's a producing tip on a on a falsetto vocal yeah come on yeah you know that's solid advice did um Did you, you didn't play, you never played live with them, did you?

35:54 I've never played live with Earth, Wind & Fire, no. I mean, I would still love to do that now. But I mean, it's still neat. Verdine's playing. You know what I mean? Yeah. You can't. I mean, that's the backbone of Earth, Wind & Fire.

36:05 You could jump in on guitar, though.

36:07 If you're not moving, nah. They just let me clap my hands. Maybe I could sing a part with Phillip, but I'm definitely not going to jump on a guitar or bass.

36:17 Man.

36:17 Maybe a soundcheck. A couple of soundchecks I would like to play with. With Earth, Wind & Fire. And I got a chance to play with Nile Rodgers and Chic.

36:30 Wow.

36:32 For something at Apple.

36:34 When was that?

36:36 Maybe a year ago. A year? Something for some type of new headphones or something. I was like, oh yeah, definitely doing that. But it wasn't a live audience.

36:46 How was it though?

36:47 It was amazing. Because, you know, Bernard Edwards is.

36:49 Right.

36:50 This is my guy too.

36:51 Were you playing his parts? Yes.

36:54 Dressed like him. I did the whole thing. I had schoolboy glasses on, the tweed jagged. I did the whole thing. Now I was looking at, looking at me and saying, wow, man, this dude went all the way in. I'm like, of course, of course I did.

37:07 Damn. That must've been, Bernard Edwards is ridiculous. Yeah. Of all the bass players we talked about today, I feel like he might be the most underappreciated, you know?

37:17 Yeah. He's, he, he's, He's celebrated, though. People do celebrate Bernard. I even feel like Queen took a piece of Another One Bites the Dust. It's from Good Times. Yeah, for sure. Another One Bites the Dust. That was smart. That's a nice bite. That's a nice little....

37:46 You can't be mad at it. I love Queen.

37:48 I was like, oh, that's a nice bike.

37:50 Yeah. Yeah. It is ridiculous. It stands out in their catalog though. It was like, that's a, that's a, um, how was, uh, tell me about the Beyonce sessions, man, or how the, the, the work on that came to be. Cause, um, I was, you know, the singles were, were great. 16 carriages was particularly my favorite of the early singles. And I know you worked on both of those, but then when the album came out, I was kind of, And American, what was the top? American Requiem came on. I was like, I got to really listen.

38:25 Well, they did a great job of having the right people in the room. I always tell people about Beyonce's, her ear. in her like, you know, decision-making is the most important thing you could be as an artist. Somebody that tours, somebody that makes records, somebody who knows their audience. So if you know your audience, it's easy to have musicians in the room that you think can push forward what you're trying to do. And so for, for me, you know, Dream was in the room.

39:04 Yeah.

39:06 A lot of great musicians. So we took songs and I, changed some songs around, you know, but then it was great things on the record already. So I just had a great, it was almost like, it was almost like the all-star team, you know, with people that I didn't know, like the, the banjo playing, you know, with, you know.

39:27 Yeah, Rihanna Giddens.

39:28 Rihanna Giddens, who like, that record wouldn't be that record without.

39:32 Her doing that. That banjo part's amazing.

39:34 Right, so, I think that's, I just I think they ain't already great they had a great team they they had great people was.

39:39 That banjo part on there but when you first heard the.

39:41 Song no no but she knew like she wanted to have it on the record and you always want to always I love working with people who know what they want yeah it makes producing fun you know, or being a part of something fun.

39:59 Yeah. What was the, what was the ask of you? Like, what was like, what, what did you feel like you were? Why, why was I in the room?

40:07 Yeah.

40:07 Yeah. Yeah.

40:07 I think I was in a room because I, I take, I'm coachable and I take instructions and I can, I can do what you asked me to do. And I actually love what I do. And I love actually knowing that somebody is going to, you dished them a dime, they about to go dunk it. That's my inspiration for me. I think they know, like, you know, I could be in a room and work with people. And it's more about the camaraderie of working with others, you know, and not being like, I'm a producer. Instead of like, no, we're in a room, like, we have instruments, and we, it's time to get it done.

40:52 Yeah.

40:53 And I think that's why I was in the room, because... I can play in many genres.

40:59 Yeah. But you can also play a lot of parts. So it's like when you're in there with your set, like your musician hat on or producer, like the dreams already, like how do you balance that? There's so many people, man.

41:10 I'm only, well, sometimes I'm in the room by myself and some of the stuff I did here.

41:15 Like they sent you stuff?

41:16 I was sending stuff too that was already, like Bodyguard was pretty much a song that I did, you know.

41:25 You wrote that I wrote that alone cause you do the is that you doing the count off.

41:28 Yeah on Bodyguard yeah she kept it counting yeah but I wasn't even gonna like play that song that was another song and she heard it and she said what's that she got an ear like that and that's why I said not many artists could take a song like Bodyguard and say I like this song and I wanna make it a record they wrote some changed some lyrics and did different things but it's only Maybe two people I know that takes some of the stuff that nobody would take from me. That's Beyonce, now, and D'Angelo.

42:05 Wow.

42:06 And Solange.

42:07 Right. Yeah, right. Solange, too. Right.

42:10 That'll take some, like, I wouldn't even play some things for people because I know they might be like, oh, that's just way too, like, you know. But you know the great ones. The great ones, they want to dive in. Yeah.

42:22 We'll be right back with more from Raphael Sadiq after the break. Here's the rest of my conversation with Raphael Sadiq. Can you tell me the story of Cranes in the Sky?

42:36 Cranes in the Sky was already eight years old, the music was. And I was really singing something. That's what I was doing, something crazy like that. And when I met Solange, we were both doing these 60s records at first. And then we were going to hook up, and I wanted her to write for me, with me for that song, for me.

43:03 For your album.

43:04 Right. So she had a copy of it, but I think it had my vocal on it. But then she wrote something for herself. And it was years later, maybe a few years later, but it was already eight years old.

43:18 And....

43:22 I didn't have a copy of it I didn't have a clean copy you gave her the actual she didn't have it either we never had a copy wow so when she was calling me asking me for a clean version with no lyrics I didn't have it so a good friend of mine Conrad who lived up in Portland is a videographer and he sometimes takes my songs and sort of makes short films And so I was talking to him about, he said, you know, I have a copy of it on a CD, on a disc. So that's the only thing we had.

44:02 Because you had sent it to him just to....

44:07 That was it.

44:07 Just so he could make a film with it?

44:09 I like a little short film shooting some friends and like, you know, just some stuff on the street.

44:15 How the hell did he get on that list?

44:18 Yeah. Conrad Montgomery. He's a track and field coach. He's a good friend of Nile Rodgers. And we run together. We run together. He taught me really how to run. He's a track and field guy. And he had it. And I said, the only one I have is on a disc. And so that record's nothing separated. that's the record that came out.

44:46 Wow. So you ripped it from that.

44:49 She's just saying over the, just put that in pro tools and saying over, over top on the.

44:53 Top of it. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's, that's wild. Yeah.

44:59 So when it works, it works. Sometimes you don't even, I mean, we, I think they compressed it and mixed it that way, like with compression and make it, you know, but pretty much it was, you know, the bass was there. The drums is already there. Um, Melatron is that Melatron right there.

45:16 Wow.

45:18 And it has work, so it kind of cracks and does some weird shit. So no Melatron sounds like that Melatron because of that. So I never get it fixed because of that. But it was all on that record. It was not anything recorded. Only thing that was recorded over was my nephew Dylan played. He played another, he played an acoustic piano. an upright piano, or he played a grand piano on top of it. Then Solange added some like crazy, like bell was just like, boom, she added that. But everything else was pretty much already multi-tracked and we couldn't separate anything.

45:59 Did she record that here with you or did she do it on her own?

46:02 Did she? I think she recorded Korean too.

46:06 Wow.

46:06 Yeah. Yeah.

46:09 That's wild that that's the origins of that song, man.

46:12 Yeah, yeah.

46:13 You know what I mean? Like that's a, that's a, that's a Grammy winning project, man, that you just was like discarded and with some track coaching. Yeah.

46:21 Sometimes you just have to make music and to make music. Cause I don't make music to, to give to one, to give to anyone. I give, I'll make music to sort of entertain myself. Cause I love music that much that I just want to hear it. If I come in, if I come in the studio, I want to hear music. Sometime I come to the studio and I don't even know, I don't even play any music. I just, I might play Madden or something. Like the arcade, the old one, like when Tom, when like McNabb was the quarterback.

46:53 Okay, all right. Yeah. Going back.

46:55 Yeah.

46:57 So you played with, okay, yeah, McNabb.

46:59 I played with McNabb and then Terrell Owens is the receiver. He catches everything right out there.

47:06 You don't play with the Raiders?

47:09 Every Blue Moon, I played with the Raiders. The Raiders wasn't that good that year.

47:13 Okay.

47:13 But sometimes, you know, sometimes I play with the Raiders. I am definitely a Raiders fan.

47:17 I mean, come on. That's tough, man.

47:19 I'm a Raiders fan, though. No, don't get it twisted. But if I'm playing arcade.

47:22 I don't do it. Okay.

47:23 All right.

47:24 You got to go with the Eagles on that.

47:25 I got to go with the Eagles or I have to go with the best defense on that game. I would say somebody like Rick Ross would probably say, no, that's not you because I heard he's really good on arcade.

47:36 Oh, really?

47:37 I would say Green Bay. I like to play with Green Bay. Kansas city because they had priest homes as a running back at the time. So I just like to play with the players to do special things.

47:48 You know, I didn't know you were a video game guy.

47:51 Yeah.

47:51 Yeah.

47:51 I'm a video game company.

47:53 You do?

47:53 Yeah. We make games. It's called ill phonic.

47:55 Wow.

47:56 Ill phonic. We did a Friday the 13th, Friday, 13th, uh, state ghostbusters.

48:04 Um, so my.

48:05 Engineer who've, who recorded the way I see it and, um, Jimmy Lee, he mixed it. And Stone Rolling, his name is Chuck Brungard. So we started a video game company almost 12, 13 years ago. Because we were in the business, we were trying to make records and we couldn't fit the system of, you know, we work on a record, they'd have somebody else mix it. And it was just getting kind of weird. So I came up with this idea to start a video game company. Um, because it was a joke about it. So, um, what's the death jam game? Um, it's a fight game.

48:50 Yeah.

48:50 It was the rush, the rush. Um, anyway, a friend works for the company. It was all these rappers and it was a fight game. And I was like, I'm like, you got to build me in the game. And my friend was like, we don't put R and B people in the game. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna make my own game. And I'm called a ghetto golf. And, and we just laugh. And so when she left, my partner Chuck goes, you know, if you really want to start a game company, you know, that's what I do for, I went to school for programming. I'm saying, let's do it.

49:21 Let's call it Illphonic because Illmatic is my favorite hip hop album, one of them. So I called it Illphonic and then maybe like the next month, we had like this test game of ghetto golf. And from there we started taking it into publishers for about a year or two. And then the next thing we were, you know, I was at all the conference game conferences. And I just kept it on the low because I felt like, um, Gamers don't really care about musicians having, you know, having a game company.

49:52 Yeah.

49:52 It's about the gamers.

49:53 It's on the strength of the game itself.

49:56 Yeah. It's about them. It's not about me. It's not about Chuck. And so then we kept going. Um, then we moved the company to Denver, Colorado, and now it's in Colorado and it's in Tacoma.

50:09 Wow. And it's still, it's active.

50:11 It's active right now.

50:12 Wow. What games are you developing? Um, Wow.

50:19 I always blow this title, and they will kill me if I say this, so I'm just not going to say it.

50:23 Okay.

50:24 Because one time I spoke on a game, and I wasn't supposed to, and it was like I just blew up the world or something.

50:31 Okay. We don't got to go there then. Yeah, yeah. You should revive the Def Jam game. That sounds incredible.

50:36 I don't know how I missed that. Yeah. It was a good game. M & M was in it.

50:41 Really?

50:42 Yeah. Buster Runs. I don't know why I can't think of the name of the game. I love games. But I play more sports games than I do first-person shooter games, which I really want to start playing more first-person shooter games. You just got to put a lot of time into that. I'm still like Call of Duty. I'm still getting blown up on the first stage. I'm like, you got to keep going. I can't follow the– I can't look at the– I can't look at it and follow it.

51:12 Yeah.

51:12 So I think I should just get better on piano instead.

51:14 That's a better, that's a better move, man.

51:16 That's what I'm going to do.

51:17 That's about the time I got out of games. I was like, well, I got to spend like, you know, I got to train for the game. I'm like, man, I can't really be involved with this.

51:24 I can't catch any passes on like Madden and new. Like it's just, it's like, just, it is bounce off my fingers. I'm like, is there a button? I'm always asking kids, is there a button that the fingers do like this to catch the ball? Because I can't, I could throw a short pass, a screen. But if I'm going for a bomb, it's like....

51:42 You got to go to training camp, man.

51:44 I got to go to training camp. You got to go figure it out.

51:46 Yeah. It's too much time on that.

51:47 Yeah, it's too much time.

51:48 You know, I want to ask you, speaking of rap, you brought up Illmatic, made me think of The Chronic, because I always think of those two albums in my mind for some reason, different years, but just incredible debut rap albums.

51:57 Right.

51:58 But Chronic 2, still DRE, and you did still Ray.

52:05 Right, yeah.

52:06 On Instant Vintage. Yeah, that was a... It feels like a, speaking of like a good, like.

52:10 Yeah, it's a good bite. That was a great bite.

52:11 It's a great bite.

52:12 Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm a huge Dre fan. You know, his name is Dre, mine is Ray. And I was like, hmm. And you know, Dre always have those lyrics. And this is motherfucking thanks I get. I kind of feel like Dre sometimes.

52:26 That's how you feel?

52:27 No, not really. But I love that lyric. And this is motherfucking thanks I get. But when that was like, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, I was like, let's turn that into like a lullaby, like a pretty song, like the hardest song that everybody's, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm like, let's turn that to, I'm coming home to you.

52:49 I'll keep it going.

52:50 Hold on. That's too nice. Hold on.

52:52 I'm like, let's flip it. Let's put it on his head and let's change it. I'm coming home to you where something see-through. You know, it just happened just really fast. Yeah, but I was definitely inspired by.

53:08 Did you hear from Dre on that?

53:11 Nah.

53:12 I bet he appreciates it, though.

53:13 Oh, no, definitely, definitely got to, like, you know, Dre is a music guy, you know.

53:18 And y'all both worked with Don Robinson.

53:21 We both did, yeah.

53:21 From Vogue.

53:22 We both did, yeah. We both have stories.

53:25 Okay, of working with Don.

53:27 Good stories, good stories.

53:30 Can you share what you think? It's the one you can... Did you know En Vogue from Oakland?

53:36 I did.

53:36 They are, I feel like.

53:39 Bad girls. I mean, beautiful, talented. Insane singers, man. Some of the nicest people. And we sort of came from the same camp with Denzel Foster and Thomas McElroy.

53:50 Right, which they did the I Got Five On It.

53:53 They did I Got Five On It. They did Lean On Me with Club Nuvo.

54:00 Right.

54:00 They did... I mean, Situation, Situation No. 9 for Club Nuvo. And, um, that's just five on it. But they did, um, Engine No. 9. They just, uh, and they signed us. We came, the Tonys went through to Tough Enough Production. They found us. They signed us.

54:21 I didn't know that.

54:21 They're responsible for, they had a reason why I'm sitting here talking to you. Wow. Yeah. I still talk to them. I mean, I talk to them pretty much, you know, a couple times a month. You know, Denny, Denny's a golfer. He plays golf. So he tries to get me out there and playing golf. I'm not good though, but I'm trying.

54:43 And Tommy is just, Tommy started, he started fighting. He became a fighter. He always had, he was always a martial arts guy. And then I think he became a, what do you call, he was a martial arts fighter.

54:57 He was fighting.

54:57 Yeah. He started doing that.

54:59 Wow.

55:00 He said he got hit really hard and then he stopped. That's a good reason to stop.

55:04 That's why I never started with that.

55:07 And yeah. And, um, yeah, but yeah, those guys, I'm really responsible for, you know, um, so that's how we got to Mercury. Wow. That's how we got there through those guys. And, um, I'm, I'm lucky to have them in my, in my, you know, my career because I learned a lot by just by listening to them.

55:28 That's amazing, man. Um, How was the tour with the Tonys?

55:33 The tour with the Tonys was amazing. It was definitely a bucket list. We took the phones. I took the phones.

55:42 You took the phones away from the audience?

55:44 From the audience. Because I wanted the audience to have a good time. The way that I've seen the OJs, I didn't have a phone when I was a kid. And that's where I learned. I feel like not having a phone And, you know, you're actually sitting with your friend or your mate and you're singing and dancing with each other. You know, you're giving people a moment of freedom that they don't know that they actually lost.

56:13 Yeah, right.

56:14 You know, nobody knows. You know, we attach to our phones.

56:16 No one remembers life before a phone, man.

56:18 Yeah, you know, and you're not actually doing anything with the videos anyway. Like, you just want to show your friends that you were at the show But it's better that you watch the show in its entirety like we rehearsed it. It was amazing though. The songs were fun to sing over. It was great to be around my brother and Tim and introduce some new musicians like Sharky who played guitar for us, who helped me out tremendously to put the show together. It was amazing. It was having an out-of-body experience. I feel like I felt my ancestors talking to me, especially in Memphis. Memphis was this...

57:11 We played in this venue that just felt... It was packed. It was like black people from the front to the back. And we haven't played... I haven't played audience with all black people in a long time. Really? Cause my, my audience is very diverse, you know, over the years as a solo artist, you feel like as a solo artist, it's just got very diverse, but this, this audience was black from the front to the back in the South.

57:41 It was everywhere.

57:41 It was a few different people in different places, but it just felt like this whole, um, because nobody had the phone, you could, you could look at me and I could look at you. So it's probably different for artists really doesn't, don't know how that feels anymore to having a phone, to have a, you know, 5,000 people looking right at you and not a phone.

58:04 And you're the main, you're the main entertainment.

58:05 You're the main thing. So I think we, we, we share something that we both haven't had in a long time. So it brought out this energy of, um, these spirits and energies that I felt like most of the time I was I felt like I felt like it didn't even happen and it was just so you know every moment we could take our time we could walk off we had an intermission people were very patient you know it felt like it was like a house party like we were all together in this in this house party and it was just everybody had a good time they were talking they were hugging they was kissing and sometimes the audience wasn't even looking at me they was you know talking to their girl and she's talking to her man they wasn't they was just enjoying it, thinking about

58:47 the times when they heard this music for the first time and everybody was sort of reflecting on, they may have lost people in the family. And it had this real deep feeling that I just never, I never felt. And so it was funny when there was anybody of any other, you know, if there was somebody white or some at the shows, it almost felt like a Malcolm X rally. It felt like it was the CIA.

59:10 It felt like a movie.

59:11 I'm like, this is CIA. Get that out of my pocket. But then as we got closer to San Francisco, it got more diverse.

59:19 You were, okay.

59:20 People came out.

59:21 You've had the Paramount in Oakland?

59:22 We played the Paramount and then we played, I forgot we played in San Francisco at some hall.

59:28 Warfield. Did y'all play the Warfield?

59:30 We didn't play the Warfield. We played inside. It was raining hard outside. But I've never played the Paramount. Ever. That was my first time playing at Paramount. And it was really good to bring it home. We brought it home.

59:43 It's a beautiful theater in Oakland.

59:44 It's beautiful.

59:45 Yeah.

59:46 So the experience was amazing. I just felt like we needed to give people, you know, give it back to them one more time. Something that they gave to us. They gave us the gift to like our music and to like what we were doing. Because we didn't know we were doing this. You know, we were just kids making music with a record deal. And... We were able to put out some test of the time music that people still listen to. I mean, how did it feel for you guys to do it? Because, I mean, I feel like, and I guess there's two ways of thinking about it.

1:00:21 When you guys broke up, if that's what y'all want to call it, after House of Music, I feel like you guys kind of went out on top. Like, I love all the records, but House of Music's like far and away from me, my favorite record of y'all's. And it's like, damn, there's probably so much more y'all could have done or, or maybe it was the right time.

1:00:39 I don't, so I don't know, but y'all left like on top for sure.

1:00:42 Yeah, we did.

1:00:43 I mean, so to get together, like, you know, 20 years later, like how did that feel for you guys?

1:00:50 It felt, cause we rehearsed right in this room. We rehearsed here and it felt good to see everybody in a room and, you know, like playing those songs live, no, no back tracks. Just, it felt really good. it was more for me for like the nieces and nephews family members to you know and from my father who's not living anymore he would have wanted us to do that and I really wanted to he said something to me before about you know how to look at things you know no matter what you think they are how you look at them and you know and you how you want to be perceived and I wanted to be perceived as, I wanted to give people what they wanted. Because when we were younger, you know, we blew it. We broke up.

1:01:40 You know, we didn't run it. I left. You know, I left the group. But it was the perfect time for me to leave the group. I mean, I didn't want to be, I remember, I always have these stories about Eddie Kendricks, one of my favorite people who, you know, he, it was hard for him to leave the Temptations. I'm guessing, right?

1:02:02 Yeah.

1:02:03 Such a big group, such big stable songs. And like, you know, Lionel Richie leaving the Commodores, you know, he had big, huge compositions. And I didn't want to get stuck being just an A group guy. I felt like I had more to offer. And I had ideas of how I wanted to do things. And I wasn't like the band leader guy who could tell people, you know, this is how it's going to go. Just do what I say. So that was better for me to step off and just, and just try and, you know, and see what I was going to do. I wanted to work with other people. I just wanted to play music, you know, and see if I could copy these, these legends that I love.

1:02:48 And it didn't feel like you could do both. Like it didn't feel like that was a, nah, nah, no.

1:02:53 I just, I just came home one day and was like, Let me just buy some season tickets to the Sacramento Kings. And I did. And I met Brian Grant, who became one of my best friends to this day. And I didn't want to, you know, he was, I had a detail shop out there. And so I should, we should, the Kings cars will come there and different cars will come there. People will come there.

1:03:16 Wait, so you got the season tickets. She says like, I can't go. I can't, I can't book nothing.

1:03:20 Cause I can't, no, no, no, I just, I got, when I decided I was leaving the group, I just decided, And I just moved to Sacramento, was new in Sacramento, bought this house there, was nothing to do. And I was like, there's not shit to do in Sacramento. But go to a strip bar or go to a game. So I did both.

1:03:44 Season tickets to both.

1:03:46 No, not season tickets, but not season tickets, but. I mean, that's where I was like, you just hear a lot of Metallica and Sacramento strip bars. Oh, man.

1:03:54 That's it. Dude, that's always a.

1:03:56 I love Metallica. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is cool. Metallica, like, Nicky's coming up right now, guys. And Metallica and truck drivers. And it was the Sacramento Kings. And then... And so people was asking Brian for tickets all the time. You know, he had a family. I said, man, I'm going to get my own tickets. Right. And that's what I did. I ended up.

1:04:19 Watching more basketball, watching more sports. And then I only worked on two artists at that time. It was D'Angelo, it was Lady, and Total, Kissing You. Puffy's group. Other than that, I didn't do much work for a few years.

1:04:36 You know, it's interesting, too, you compare yourself to Eddie Kendricks, too. Because there are some times, listening to Tony, Tony, Tony, when you and your brother... like trade vocals. It's almost like a, a, a rough and Kendrick kind of like, just the way y'all sound sometimes, you know.

1:04:51 What I mean? Cause we, I always felt like, you know, sometimes when I'm watching the sports shows, sometimes people scream too much. Like if I'm watching, if I'm watching Stephen, if I'm watching first take, I call first take first Baptist. Cause it sounded like church. It sounded like, like preachers.

1:05:08 They all sound like preachers.

1:05:10 Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:12 But I love their show.

1:05:12 I love the show.

1:05:13 And then I listen to, I'll go to like, what's it called? It's called First Things or something.

1:05:21 First Things.

1:05:22 First Things First.

1:05:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:05:24 Their voices are too high. It's just like, and it just irritates the hell out of me. And then.

1:05:30 Skip Bayless.

1:05:32 Can't take skips. At all.

1:05:35 But.

1:05:36 Who was on the show I like on the Skip Show?

1:05:40 Wayne? Lil Wayne's on there now.

1:05:42 The right receiver.

1:05:43 Oh, you're talking about. USC. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:05:45 I'm just blanking out on his name. That's terrible because he's my favorite guy.

1:05:48 Yeah, he just joined the last year. It's a great commentator.

1:05:51 Yeah, so he makes Skip Show good, but I'm really calling her a guy.

1:05:57 You're a Colin Hurd guy?

1:05:58 I know.

1:05:59 I can't deal with it. I feel about Colin the way I feel about Skip. I like Skip Batch. He kind of reminds me of wrestling or something.

1:06:07 No, Colin is right. Because you know why? Because Colin got it right. Because Colin is no debating. He'll ask a question.

1:06:13 He debates himself.

1:06:15 No, but yeah, but when he brings on great guests.

1:06:17 Yeah, okay.

1:06:18 And he doesn't, if I ask you a question, and then when you answer the question, he goes to the next subject. He don't debate you. I like that.

1:06:26 He just moves along.

1:06:27 He doesn't debate you, right?

1:06:28 That's so funny.

1:06:30 Back to me and Dwayne.

1:06:31 Yes.

1:06:31 I think my voice is irritating sometimes, right? So it was great to have me and Dwayne going back and forth. And that's the way I see those talk shows, those game shows. You need different people with different voices because some voice might irritate you. My voice is high. And sometimes people, it could be irritating.

1:06:49 It's too high. I've never heard anyone say that.

1:06:51 But when Dwayne comes in, it just levels me off and gives me the confidence. You know, it's like, I don't want to say this, but like, you know, Michael and Jermaine, it worked, right?

1:07:02 Yeah, yeah.

1:07:03 So, those talk shows, yeah, I think Colin is the man, bro.

1:07:07 Come on, man. I can't, I can't, man.

1:07:09 You like Skip over Colin?

1:07:11 Skip's funny to me. Skip just cracks, it's like, it's so ridiculous. It's insane.

1:07:16 He's like Trump almost.

1:07:17 Yeah, but, okay. Sorry.

1:07:19 Okay.

1:07:22 Okay, listen. Listen. You're not wrong.

1:07:25 He's just saying shit. You're not wrong.

1:07:26 But here's the thing. Like, okay, I might regret putting this on wax, but Trump is actually kind of funny. He is funny. It's just that he's like... George Bush is funnier. Come on. They're both pretty funny.

1:07:40 No, he's just... Trump is just ridiculous.

1:07:42 Well, you know what's ridiculous? I mean, this really ain't funny. It's kind of funny. It's in a dark way. You think about George Bush started the Iraq war, all those veterans, people dead, maimed.

1:07:52 It was terrible.

1:07:52 And now he's just sitting there at home painting them.

1:07:55 And he's good.

1:07:55 Like, bro, like, what? You sent them to fucking lose an arm.

1:07:59 Because now he's painting, like, look at this motherfucker you guys got now.

1:08:03 Yeah.

1:08:04 Like, whatever choice do you have? Like, I mean, most people I know, like, are voting. And who wants to vote Trump, who you wouldn't think. Everybody want to save money on taxes. But I want to save money on taxes, too. But I'm like, if that's going to be it, fuck it.

1:08:16 I don't want to do it that much. Lose the money.

1:08:19 Yeah.

1:08:19 I would rather lose money than do the yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:21 Yeah, but Skip is definitely Trump.

1:08:22 He is, but he's not trying to run the country. That's what I appreciate about it. You know what I mean? He's just trying to push in.

1:08:26 I feel like Skip comes in with a ready package. Like, you say something, he's going to combat it. I feel like they have the... You could.

1:08:32 I guess.

1:08:34 I can see their daily meetings.

1:08:36 I'm going to take this position. You're going to take that one. That's why I don't like it.

1:08:39 With Colin, you know there's a meeting, but it's only one person.

1:08:44 Colin just reminds me of the guy in the classroom that's doing too much. You know what I mean? He's ruining everything for you.

1:08:51 But you know what I like about Colin? I don't know how he got on the sports thing, but the funny thing about Colin, I want to find out why does he hate Aaron Rodgers so much?

1:09:00 That's a great question.

1:09:01 It's funny, though. He'll give him a break, but he'll be like, you know... He just kills him. I think I watch him just to watch him kill people. But he has really good tips for being professional. If you listen to him.

1:09:16 Oh, yeah, definitely.

1:09:17 Like he definitely.

1:09:19 Okay. You got it. I'm going to move to Manhattan beach. Try to try to link up with him. He may see if he can mentor me on how to. Yeah.

1:09:27 I mean, because look at this podcast company is Draymond green.

1:09:32 Yeah. Wait, no, that's it. Is that his?

1:09:34 That's his.

1:09:35 Oh, I didn't know that.

1:09:35 Yeah. Dude comes on and be like, you know, he gave dream on the platform. I didn't know that.

1:09:40 Yeah.

1:09:42 He's a beast, man.

1:09:43 He's a beast.

1:09:43 I know.

1:09:44 But Skip, you got Stephen A, Shannon, Wayne, our boy who we can't think of right now. He's put people on too. I'm just saying. I try.

1:09:55 Like I, I try, I skip my stations and I go on Skip. I'm like, nah, Skip's like, Skip's just like making people mad.

1:10:03 Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love that about it.

1:10:07 It's a different structure, different folks.

1:10:08 That's right.

1:10:09 That's right.

1:10:09 That's it. Um, I feel like I'm bouncing everywhere, but it's just like so much to ask you.

1:10:14 One more thing about Skip.

1:10:15 Please. One more thing.

1:10:18 His name is perfect. You should just skip his show. Exactly.

1:10:25 That's the tagline. You can just go on and skip me.

1:10:28 Skip this, Skip that.

1:10:30 Just skip this Bayless, man. Y'all went down to record House of Music. Y'all went down to, was it Trinidad? Trinidad. Yeah.

1:10:37 It's a House of Music? Because it's Sons of Soul.

1:10:40 Was it Sons of Soul y'all did that?

1:10:41 I think it was Sons of Soul.

1:10:42 Okay. Yeah. Pre-internet, how did you know about this studio down in Trenton? How did y'all know to get.

1:10:49 We found out from some of our Trini brothers, Trent Gumbs and Desmond Gumbs, some guys that was in a... Trent Gumbs, I was in a high school band with him. And he's Trini. And he told us about this studio. They needed people to come down there and record it. They gave us a good price to come record the music.

1:11:08 And we stayed there for three months. stayed there for three months. I think that's the first time I had roti. This is the sad part. It's the first time I ever tasted a mango.

1:11:19 Really?

1:11:20 Yeah. It was in Trinidad.

1:11:22 That's probably was a good mango too.

1:11:23 The best mango I ever had in my life.

1:11:25 Wow.

1:11:26 And it was beautiful. It's a beautiful place. Beautiful music, beautiful food. And, um, we had almost five to six rooms to record in.

1:11:37 Wow.

1:11:37 Huge orchestra room. Um, it was it was a great time.

1:11:42 Was it like that was that was how many people so was you guys who else did you guys go down with.

1:11:47 We brought we we might have brought like 10 people when we left we left uh it was only maybe three people we left everybody wanted to leave except us wow yeah.

1:11:58 It seems like an incredible do you guys have any like footage of that time or i.

1:12:02 Don't think we filmed anything we were the worst we we weren't the beatles we didn't dock how you know you see the Beatles have a documentary that came out and they filmed it like 40 years ago. Yeah.

1:12:12 Yeah. And it's like literally all the footage. It's like, yeah, they're never off camera.

1:12:16 No.

1:12:17 Yeah. No, I mean, I just, yeah, it's pretty, I guess it makes sense that it was Sons of Soul cause it feels like that's like really, there's an energy on that album, you know?

1:12:28 Yeah. Sons of Soul was like, yeah, it was definitely a Trini. Right.

1:12:33 Slow wine.

1:12:34 Slow wine.

1:12:35 Yep.

1:12:35 Slow wine.

1:12:36 Um, It's beautiful.

1:12:38 I mean, like the rainforest, it would be like just in the daytime, just you eating dinner and just hard rain is just coming down, you know, because the windows are open. They love the good life out there.

1:12:50 Other thing I wanted to ask you, just going back to Beyonce, your brother, Dwayne, brought Destiny's Child to Oakland like before they blew up, right?

1:13:00 Yeah.

1:13:01 So it's like, did you, did you like, yeah. Can you tell that story if you know it? And then did you know Beyonce at that time?

1:13:07 No, I didn't know. I didn't know Beyonce at that time. I actually was in L.A. at the time.

1:13:11 OK.

1:13:12 Or I was in Sacramento and then I moved to L.A. So I missed that whole thing. I wasn't around it at all.

1:13:17 Wow. Yeah.

1:13:18 I know I know he had him through another guy named Alonzo Jackson. Alonzo Jackson is a guy we were in. I was in a band with two. And Dwayne was in a band with Alonzo Jackson's uncle. So we were sort of like the kids band to that band. But there's also another lady who Alonzo met. So he met Destiny's Child through this lady. She ended up passing away.

1:13:46 And then Alonzo brought the girls to Dwayne.

1:13:52 Did you hear from him about it? Like, yo, I got these.

1:13:54 I mean, he was working with a lot of people at the time. He was working with Alicia Keys after that. Um, he had his own label. He, he was working a lot of people, but like I said, I wasn't around for any of it. I didn't know any of the artists.

1:14:06 Do you guys get along or is that not?

1:14:09 No, we get along. No, we get along. We just different.

1:14:12 Yeah.

1:14:12 We just different. And, you know, um, I mean, growing up, he was my, you know, my child, my idol. I wanted to be around him all the time. Was it a sort of an age gap there? And then once you get in, once you get a record deal, everybody started having their own set of friends, you know? So, and I was still, in Amber with the, the trick that I was, I was in the business, I was making records, you know, it was like something that was a really, a surprise to me, you know, cause I'm pretty much wanting to be like an assignment, a play for people. So I was too busy figuring this out and how not to be a failure and what we said we were doing. So I, I pretty much, You know, I was trying to, you know, talk to as many

1:15:01 people as I could to learn a little bit more.

1:15:07 There was like a five-year, maybe five, maybe six-year gap between House of Music and Instant Vintage.

1:15:14 Yeah, I wouldn't know because there's no gaps for me because I'm always playing music.

1:15:18 Right.

1:15:18 I'm always making records, but they're just not coming out.

1:15:21 Okay. But so there wasn't like when you left like this earth. feel of urgency of like I gotta get something out establish myself as no you did the song for like you know.

1:15:30 Yeah for different people it should have been some urgency but.

1:15:33 I didn't it's all worked out I was just curious.

1:15:35 No no it should have been some urgency but I didn't I wasn't I wasn't there like that I was like you know like I said it was football basketball music video games the new guitars watching this person do that nieces and nephews and I was nephew was playing you know wanted to play basketball so I was you know, fly him to Dominguez from Sacramento to play in a league with the Pump brothers. And I was sort of like helping my nieces and nephews get in good schools.

1:16:05 And that was part of it too.

1:16:07 You could have become like a sports agent or something. You could have like, you know, there's another, there's another path you could take.

1:16:14 I should tell my buddy, like I told Brian one time, he wasn't doing that good. Well, his points was low and I just went to him one day. I was like, man, I said, tell me something. I said, if they come to you and say, no, they're going to fire you. I said, they're going to fire, the GM is going to be there for a long time. You probably get fired first. Like, it's you, then it's the coach, then it's the GM. That's how it go, right? He like, yeah.

1:16:44 He said, okay, I hear you. He went and he got like, he got about what? He hit about 20, he hit about 17 rebounds and That night when he called me, he's like, you see the game? I'm like, yeah. He said, yeah. He said, no, I want to hear some records.

1:17:01 You're a clutch producer, man. Yeah. You produce anything. Yeah. Charlie Ray. The song Charlie Ray. Yeah. Where did that guitar part come from?

1:17:10 Well, it came from me trying to be in my funkadelic, you know, um, And it's like Charlie Ray's... It's like a funkadelic dream. It's such a... It almost sounds like Grateful Dead-ish. Like it's so... Really? Like it's just so.

1:17:51 I don't know that anyone.

1:17:52 I do have a lot of Grateful Dead type of music that I haven't put out. What? Just like instrumental stuff. For real? Yeah. Yeah, I did. So my album, before I did Jimmy Lee, I had this whole other record that felt like Charlie Ray. And then I started thinking about my brother and some friends about drug addiction. And then I just jumped off and got on this whole other...

1:18:20 wave in but i did have these records that then i'm gonna put together it's more instrumental stuff vocals happen but maybe like after two minutes in the record what yeah that's what that's the stuff i love that you know i could do it now because i'm not i'm not really in the record i'm not i'm not i don't think i've ever been in a record business i think i've been a friend of the brand That's my thing.

1:18:47 A friend of the brand.

1:18:48 A friend of, really? Yeah.

1:18:49 The friend of the brand. I got that from like New Balance. I did this thing with somebody and instead of having ambassadors, they might have somebody in a commercial and it's like a friend of the brand is not an ambassador. When I heard that term, I was like, oh, that suits me just fine because that's what I felt like I've been. I'm a friend of the brand, which means I really, really love it. I can call myself a friend of the brand.

1:19:15 Is that because you don't necessarily want to be fully in it like because you i'm sure you could.

1:19:22 Be no i think i want to be fully in it but i just want to you know dip off and do regular shit you know and not i don't need to have 10 celebrity friends and hang out with them you know i don't need to be talking about celebrity friends all day i need to just you know i'm walking um you know i'm on a bike i'm just doing Things that, you know, my friends are... I'm still friends with my friends from third grade.

1:19:49 Damn.

1:19:50 You know? I still talk to them on the phone.

1:19:53 Wow.

1:19:54 You know? I took some of my friends' lyrics and put it in a song.

1:19:57 Really?

1:19:57 A song that he used to always sing. And then I haven't seen him in 25 years. When he saw me, he's like, you sang my lyric in a song.

1:20:05 What lyric? What song?

1:20:06 It's not called For the Love of You. It's a... I will see... I will... Stand by you like a tree. Dare anyone to try to move me. But he had got it from Marvin. Wow. But I didn't know. But we would be on the street hanging out. And he would be like, I'll stand by you like a tree. He would always say that. So our first record, his name is Rodney. We called him We Got Rodney Smith.

1:20:34 And when he saw him, he was like, tell him, Ray. It was all our other friends. He said, tell him. He already knew. He said, tell him. I said, I took those lyrics, stand by me like a tree. He already knew.

1:20:48 Cold busted, man.

1:20:49 Yeah, tell him that.

1:20:52 Oh, man. I'm going to circle back because this is one thing we dropped, which was we started talking about the secret track. How did that, we got off on it because that Larry Graham one is my favorite. But how did that happen? When did that, like?

1:21:05 I think I started doing it because I think Prince, when I heard, hello, how are you? it was at the end of the record and I've heard maybe one other person do that. And I was like, I wonder if I just like let the record go off and for like a minute or two, a minute and a half, let it scare the hell out of people if they in the house and the record pops. That's not, I don't want to scare people, but I just thought like, you know, this, this would be a thing that I could start and I can continue to do it. Yeah.

1:21:41 And I'm actually going to put out some vinyl pretty soon.

1:21:44 Um, Of previous stuff?

1:21:46 Previous stuff. And I'm sort of like a vinyl club. I started putting out vinyl.

1:21:51 Put the Grateful Dead project down, man.

1:21:53 I will. I'm definitely going to do that.

1:21:55 I'll buy that on vinyl. The gatefold. Definitely.

1:21:57 I'm a vinyl head, you know.

1:21:59 Man. Cool. Well, Rafael, thank you so much, man.

1:22:01 Thank you, man.

1:22:02 What an honor.

1:22:02 Yeah. Thank you.

1:22:06 Thanks so much, Rafael Sadiq, for having us out to this beautiful Los Angeles studio. To hear some of our favorite Raphael Sadiq songs, check out a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolley.

1:22:35 Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.

1:23:00 I'm Justin Richmond.