Jason Alexander: How Do You Handle Peaking With Seinfeld?

0:00 In the Middle East, peace initiatives are like Kleenex. Everybody has a box of them. If you want to have a commercially successful career, you're going to have to expand what you think you can do. How do you handle accepting that that was a pinnacle? Therapy. That's where that George... That's Jackie Gleason going...

0:20 He was a no-nonsense guy, and he very lovingly said, I know your heart and soul is Hamlet, and no one's ever going to cast you as Hamlet. Look in the mirror. He's not faking it. He thinks he's having a heart attack. And I'm now arguing with Larry about how I'm right, because this is what a heart attack would look like.

0:37 And Larry goes, it's not funny. You have to have a funny heart attack. Life has been good enough to me that I go, life, you don't have to give me anything else except the opportunity to do something that's interesting and engaging and maybe positive. Jason, you and I have known each other for like 25 years or so.

1:00 Easily. A lot of people don't actually know. I know Larry David takes credit for that, but they don't know that the character for Josh Costanza was loosely based on me. Like, do you want to just complain with everybody and tell them the truth? Yes, yes, absolutely. He was, absolutely. First of all, the hair alone.

1:19 The hair alone. But the true story of how we met is, it's a little heavier. I really do think that over the last 25 years, it's around 25 years that I've known you. By the way, it's so weird because one of my team members probably wasn't born when you and I met. It freaks me out when I think about that.

1:39 That's going to happen more and more, I'm afraid. I know. But the circles that we met were very intense. Do you wanna share with us? I was invited, you and your partner, Mohamed Duarsha, were you both founders of the One Voice? Yeah. Yeah. I was invited by Danny DeVito to come to his home to hear you and Mohamed sort of make a presentation about what you were attempting to do with the One Voice movement.

2:05 And I had recently, I had done two trips to Israel The first one very reluctantly. I really thought Israel would be a place that I would not feel at home in, despite my Jewishness. But I had been very, very impressed by Israel and interested in its future and trying to understand the nature of this conflict.

2:30 So I was interested in what you guys were gonna talk about. came to the meeting and to put it in a nutshell, what you and Mohammed and One Voice were doing were devising a systematic approach to appeal to the citizenry, the moderate citizens of both Israel and Palestine, to sort of negotiate in their own terms for a two-state peace solution, having cited it as a failure of leadership on both sides to be able to get to that.

2:59 And the methodology was pretty well in place, and it sounded all very well thought out. But what got me in particular, I'm sorry to say, Danny, it was not you. You didn't have children at the time. But Muhammad was talking about his son, Fadiq. and how Fadi, I think, was 12 years old at the time, and he had come to his father and said, hey, Dad, remember when I said I was gonna be the number one student in my class?

3:24 I wasn't at the time, and I worked really hard, and I became the number one student. Mohammed said, yes, Fadi, yes, very proud of you. And he said, remember I said I was gonna be the captain of the soccer team, even though I was not the best soccer player, and I worked really hard? And he said, yes, yes, I remember, yes.

3:40 And then he said, my son has now said to me, I'm going to be a martyr. A Shahid. And Muhammad, father to father, turned to us and said, I need your help to make my son give up this promise. And at that point, you guys more or less finished speaking and I came up to both of you and I said, I don't know what I can do for you.

4:02 But whatever you think it is, I'm willing to try. And that's when you and I became friends and we planned our first visit to the Middle East. You know, I was just earlier today talking to my team at Builders, which is kind of like an evolution of the One Voice work you and I did, which we're still doing in the Middle East.

4:18 And I was telling them, when you're aiming for big, dramatic change to change the course of history, you have to also accept the small wins. And by the way, it's not a small win for you to know that Mohamed's son is a very successful young man, and he's moved in the right direction. And what we did through One Voice and what we'll continue to do has impacted hundreds of thousands of people in ways that it's very hard to sometimes take account for.

4:42 But I think that's... something. I have to say that when we first met that day, it was a very weird period for me, because I don't know if you remember, I had a full beard because I had lost my dad. Yeah. Yeah. And in some weird way, it was very grounding because I was there, you know, a week after my dad passed away.

5:04 And it was a difficult time to be there, but it made me, for the most part, not be easily phased by celebrities because Danny had an incredible who's who there. And Mohammad and I were like very grateful, but Brad Pitt was there. He was then dating Jennifer Aniston who was there. Edward Norton, Lucy Liu, there was like dozens of incredible people.

5:27 But I secretly had a man crush on you because I was obsessed with Seinfeld and with your character. Do you remember what happened when you finally said, hey, call me, I'd like to go. Do you remember what happened or no? No. So you gave me your number and I like practice what I was going to do. And hi, Mr. Alexander, how are you doing?

5:50 And how to try to get you engaged? Because you said, I'm willing to try to help, but I don't know how to help. Call me. So I'm like planning and how I think about what I should be prepared to talk to you about or whatever. I'm like, yes, Mr. Alexander. Yes. I'm ready. And then when I call you, you say, hello.

6:07 And I'm like, George, because... I don't know the way you said hello. And I was like so embarrassed. I'm so sorry, Jason. I'm so sorry. Do you remember that or no? I don't because it happens all the time. I have people who I work with. You know, they've met me as Jason. They know me as Jason. We're three weeks into something we're working on.

6:30 And they go, so George. And they're like mortified. And I go. That's how you met me. I mean, I get it. That's how you met me. So, you know. Pretty Woman came before? Just before Seinfeld, yeah. So, I mean, I also enjoyed your character, but I think he just became such an iconic character. Yeah. But normally when people get together and they develop a relationship and they decide to travel together, they go on a...

6:55 romantic vacation, the birds are chirping, it's like a sweet thing at the island. You went straight into the Middle East. We went right to the Middle East. With us. There was no honeymoon period. That was one of the most fascinating trips I've ever done in my life. Like, do you remember some of it? I do.

7:14 I remember a lot of the first one. I think I've gone with you three times. The third time we went was the time we went into the Palestinian cities as well. But yeah, I remember many things about the first time I went with you. Actually, the first time you went, you went to Ramallah also. All three trips you did.

7:32 Did we really? Oh, I didn't remember that. Yeah, for sure. Because I remember distinctly for the last trip, you and I believe Mohammed were on the you know, we've done, there's Palestinians on the board and they're complaining that you come, but you never go. And I said, well, how much of a risk would I be taking as an American Jew walking into Palestinian cities?

7:55 And Muhammad said, the greatest dishonor that could happen to a religious Muslim is to allow harm to come to an invited guest. And he said, Jason, if they had to, they'll take a bullet for you. And what was so interesting about that trip is, I don't know if you remember, we were having lunch in Ramallah with a bunch of actors and artists and, you know, at a sort of outdoor restaurant.

8:19 And the Israeli army was conducting a raid on a bank that they thought had terrorist ties a couple blocks away. And they must have, to announce themselves, just shot into the air. And I remember 10 of those guys at the table surrounding me. And I went, oh, my God. They really, he wasn't kidding. They're not going to let me get hurt.

8:38 But the first time we went, there were things I remember. I certainly remember our great time with the gentleman from the Kabbalah Society. I want to talk about that one next. I was going to end with that. That was great. Do you remember that? Oh, of course. I'll never forget that guy. I think that's what bonded us more than anything is we were just, we were trying to hold it together while this guy went on and on.

8:56 Let's just go and go there. And then we come back to the stuff. We were on a very long road trip, actually to go visit Muhammad Darashe in his village in Iqsa, where they've lived for many generations. And on the way there, it was a two, three hour drive because there was a lot of traffic. And back then the roads weren't as good.

9:14 And this gentleman started talking. Do you remember what he was, his theory of change? Yeah. Sending pallets of the Kabbalah to the Ayatollah. Yeah, literally. Yeah, pallets. He was literally sending this Jewish mystical book by the pallet loads. pallets and pallets, they would arrive in the Islamic Republic regime, dedicated to the Ayatollah, and his theory was... Well, he said the first time he sent a pallet, he heard nothing, and he went, I need to, somehow it didn't work.

9:48 So he sent another pallet, and he got a letter back that basically said, I think there's been some mistake. Pick up your damn pallet. We don't need these, please don't send anymore. And he went, you and I would go, we should stop. He went, I've made contact. I'm beginning to be effective." And he kept sending them until finally, he was getting letters that he didn't understand how funny they were.

10:11 Going, stop sending these fucking books. Stop, stop. And you and I were like, these guys either going to single hand the only world war three. He's gonna ignite world war three, that's right. That was. Or they might say, okay fine, we'll make peace with you. Just stop sending all those books to us. But he had no, he was so clueless.

10:28 He was just trying to... He was so excited. Yes. Of the books. And we were hysterical. We were literally laughing to the floor of the car. That's right. But sometimes I wonder if when people saw you and I pursuing peace in the Middle East, they're like, fine, we'll make a deal just... To get rid of these guys.

10:47 That's right. Exactly. Get them out. But we had great conversations. I remember you took me to... One of the reasons you said it would be helpful if I went is because at the time, either you or Mohammed said, in the Middle East, peace initiatives are like Kleenex. Everybody has a box of them and nothing gets any attention.

11:06 The Israeli press at the time was like, yeah, whatever, whatever. And so I was the carrot that you were gonna dangle, to sort of get them to come to work. And you're being modest. You were certainly back then, a phenomenon like I've never seen before. Because it was interesting, both the Israelis and the Palestinians were starved for positive constructive attention and for a celebrity of your caliber because it was coming right off of you.

11:37 Seinfeld was playing at the time all over. Like there were thousands of people in line to try to get to every one of our events. And like the paparazzi were, it was like crazy. There were hundreds of paparazzi for you. Like nothing like I've seen in LA, but like you have hundreds of people like, Every now and then, yeah, absolutely.

11:58 But it was, what was so astonishing is when, the time that I do remember going into the Palestinian cities was Ramallah. And, you know, I'm getting out of the car and I'm going, you know, I don't know how I feel about all this. It feels a little dangerous. I stepped out of the car and there was a Palestinian street vendor with a cart.

12:20 And I got out of the car and he went, George! George Costanza! And, like, street vendors started... And I went, oh, my God, they're watching our show in Palestine. It was incredible. It was amazing. And you always were very humble to always say, I'm here to put the spotlight on people like Mohammed, on people... Because, by the way, that was my role, too.

12:38 I'm a confused Mexican Jew. I'm neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian. What you and other people from the Entertainment Council did was to try to put a spotlight on the true depth of the grassroots infrastructure work where... thousands of people were working for the movement and hundreds of thousands signed on.

12:56 And Danny, I haven't asked you, so given everything that's going on in the region now, is one voice impactful still in some ways? Is it at least part of the ongoing dialogue? The truth is that a lot of things have changed. You may recall there were four pieces of One Voice. There was One Voice Israel, One Voice Palestine, One Voice Europe, One Voice USA.

13:21 Each of them have been transformed. And we're now, I think, in 60 campuses and they're doing good work. But I thought you were going to ask a slightly different question, which is, how do I compare today to then in terms of whether I'm hopeful or negative? How do you feel? Well, I know, because in our couple of conversations, I know you're hopeful.

13:43 What I saw in my, in the multiple trips that we were taking, and I haven't been to the region easily since 2012, so it's been a good decade. When we first started going, The talk of two states was prominent. People may have been doubtful, but they were hopeful. Towards the end of when I started to go, I heard less talk of two states.

14:18 I saw a little more entrenched unwillingness to try and experience the conflict through the eyes of the other. And I began to think, oh, this is going in the wrong direction. This is really going in the wrong direction. I can't imagine how this generation of Israelis and Palestinians get to the place where they can let go and forgive enough, as you always said, not to be best friends, but to be respectful neighbors that allow for dignity and self-determination.

15:02 I don't see that kind of grace in the world right now in huge numbers. So it's harder for me to be hopeful that it's around the corner. I think working for it is still absolutely vital. I would not use the word hopeful, but that's just because I never think in those terms. You may recall, because I've shared this with you before, for me...

15:24 whether being optimistic or pessimistic, it's never crossed my mind to think that way. I always think about what do I need to do about it? It's not about whether the glass is half full or half empty, it's full of the damn glass, be an actionist, do something about it. And so if I was forced to ask whether I'm hopeful, I would say I'm very sobered up.

15:42 I mean, the amount of hate that I'm witnessing nowadays across all walks of life is, much greater than when you and I started on this journey. It's terrifying, it's horrible, it's horrifying. The reason why I'm determined and I actually am convinced that we can actually make a difference is nobody likes this.

16:02 No Muslim or Jew is happy with the demonization going on. No Christian is happy, no anything. Everybody recognizes that there's something wrong with our society, partly fueled by social media and these us versus them algorithms, partly fueled by all these toxic forces. And the reason why I'm convinced that we have a chance is because of my daily experiences.

16:27 Forget about the geopolitical stuff, which I've studied for decades. If you look at the daily experiences, this just happened to me this week. There was a person that was being very difficult with me, and I was becoming very difficult with that person, and it was escalating. And then this person just showed leadership and kindness and respect and humanity towards me.

16:45 I'm completely... made me shift and made me, and then we ended up with a very, very good outcome. And the same thing happens in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Each side thinks there's no partner, and so they double down in defending themselves because they're nationalists, they believe in their rights and their children's future, but neither side's aspirations are gonna be fulfilled if they're at each other's throats.

17:13 But if you really start thinking about it, When you and I visited the region, the Arab-Israeli population, which is about 20% of Israel, 20% of Israelis are Arabs, mostly Muslims, people like Mohammed Darawsh. Most of them call themselves Palestinian citizens of Israel. They acknowledge their Israeli passport, but they didn't have an identity as Israelis.

17:40 Right. Today, 40% of them identify as Israelis, proud Israelis, from Nusay Yassin to Lucia Harish. There's an incredible group of leaders that are Arab, that are Muslim, and that are proud to be Israeli. And they're an important bridge. And similarly, when you and I were doing that work, Saudi Arabia was sponsoring hate.

18:01 Now they are part of the solution. They're really working really hard to, and the constituted and neutralized extremism and terrorism. And the Emirates are like probably one of the most remarkable countries in the region. There's a lot of momentum in the Arab world to recognize that's enough with this extremism and absolutism that we need to turn the page and build together.

18:24 And now we need to do that here on our shores. Yeah. I was doing a benefit somewhere and, you know, there was a protest and I... I always try, you know, if it can be respectful, I try and go and spend five minutes, ten minutes with them. And... You know, the thing I said to them, because they all have absolute answers, you know, boycott Israel, land to the sea, blah, blah, blah.

18:50 I go, okay. So which side do you think is stupid? Are the Palestinians stupid or are the Israelis stupid or are they both stupid? Because you clearly think one of them is stupid. They go, what do you mean? I go, well, this conflict has been going on longer than I've been alive and I'm alive 66 years.

19:08 I've been to Israel and Palestine. By the way, have you? And they go, no. I go, oh, okay. Well, my experience of the Israelis and Palestinians is they're really smart. They both value education, and they both know what they're talking about. And they can't resolve this conflict. But you, standing here on the campus of UCLA, you've got the answer.

19:28 So you must, you have to believe one of these cultures is just stupid because you can figure it out. But you're being too generous. You're being too generous because it's not just that they think that they have the answer. They're actually causing a lot of harm because people that hold on... to the looted absolutist perceptions about fully destroying and annihilating the other side.

19:54 Like if a person says, from the river to the sea and they want to destroy Israel, that makes the Israelis say, okay, we need to defend ourselves. This is... Right, of course. They entrenched more. Exhibit number one that we need to not allow that to happen. And so this absolutist... efforts to destroy the other side end up hurting the people they're purporting to support.

20:13 Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, what we're doing with Builders, and part of what we're doing with Builder Break, is to try to help everybody. It's not necessarily about the politics, but in our own lives, we're going to help. How do we become builders? And we're doing that also for our personal growth.

20:27 We're interviewing some of the most extraordinary, amazing people that have accomplished so much and trying to get into the madness of how they became who they became. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit and ask you a little bit about your craft. And this is not only for actors, comedians, magicians. This is for everybody.

20:46 But I really am very curious about your craft and about your build or break moments. So by the way, I've known you 25 years, but I also enjoy learning a lot. One of the things that I learned is that early in your journey, one of your professors told you, Jason, I don't think you're meant to be Hamlet.

21:05 I don't think that's gonna work out. And he encouraged you to move to comedy. And for me, it was fascinating to think that you could have just given up. You could have just quit or ignored the advice, but you actually delved in and pivoted and then, did something incredible. So can you walk us through what was going through your mind as a kid when you're being told the advisor could be putting you down?

21:28 I don't think he meant to put you down, but you took it constructively, you took that feedback and did something good with it. So tell us. So when I was a little kid, my ambitions were in the world of magic. And the reason... I just wrote a forward for a magic book that's coming out that the magician Ossie Wind is doing.

21:49 And I talked about this a little bit, about why do little kids sometimes get into magic? And in my case, it was because I felt isolated and scared. I was the target of the bullies. My siblings were out of the house. I was basically a latchkey kid. And I did not feel powerful in any way, shape, or form.

22:08 And the idea of... Doing things that other people couldn't do, doing the seemingly impossible, meant to me, oh, you're going to be powerful, and people will perceive you as powerful. That's what I was hungry for. Likewise, when I realized I wasn't gonna be the magician I wanted to be, and I got pulled into the theater world with those kids, the initial things I was doing made me feel, oh, this is powerful.

22:34 This is very powerful. So my aspirations were toward the classics of the great theater, or I told Bill Shatner this. Bill Shatner as Captain Kirk was one of my heroes, because why? Powerful, powerful guy. He's running a starship around the galaxy. So all my aspirations when I went to college were as being a dramatic actor in these sort of powerful roles.

23:00 And the gentleman you're talking about was a professor named Jim Sproul. He was the only black professor in our program. He had come up from street theater in the 60s where you do theater to change the world kind of thing. And he was a no-nonsense guy and he very lovingly said, I know your heart and soul is Hamlet.

23:18 and you would probably be a very profound Hamlet. And no one's ever going to cast you as Hamlet. Just look in the mirror. Five foot five, 25 pounds overweight, already starting to lose my hair. He said, no one's going to cast you as Hamlet. You might want to get good at Falstaff. And he was basically... Falstaff is one of the great comedic roles in the Shakespeare canon.

23:40 And I went, he's telling me to be funny. Now, I didn't think of myself as funny. But... I thought I was engaging, I could be that. But I didn't think of myself as funny, and I never thought I could have a career in comedy. But I took him very seriously. He didn't say stop, he said expand. It doesn't mean you can't do what you have your eye on, but if you want to have a commercially successful career, you're gonna have to expand what you think you can do.

24:13 And for some reason, instead of being defeated by that, I got inspired by that, and I began to build my own syllabus of comedy performances, you know, comedians, comic actors, looking at old films, looking at television shows, listening to comedy albums, and trying to understand why funny people were funny.

24:33 What were they doing that was creating this comedic effect? You know, Jackie Gleason had his bluster. Woody Allen couldn't see... Woody Allen was the little man who thought he was more than he was, you know, a ladies' man when he's a nebbish. Sometimes it's musicality. You know, why is Jackie Mason funny?

24:53 He's funny because he looks like that. And the music of his voice is funny. And his movements are funny. So all these things were ideas that I began to play with until I could begin to build what I call my bag of tricks that I can pull something out of and go, I know how to, if I put this idea on this piece of material, I'll probably get a funny result.

25:16 Is there something that you think equipped you to, instead of being defeated, be inspired, to turn feedback into something you could do something good with and be a protagonist, to not just be a victim, but to actually do something good with that feedback? Where did that come from? Part of it was purely circumstantial.

25:37 I fell into a professional career when I was 14. So I was already a professional working actor when I went to college and this happened. So I knew There was a potentially successful career there for me. It wasn't like I was just a student going, when I get out of here, I hope good things will happen.

25:55 They had already started to happen. So I had that going for me. What was your first job? When I was 14, I had to join what was then AFTRA, a standalone union, because I was doing local children's theater in New Jersey. little original musicals for children. And there was a father who brought his kid who happened to be a television producer and thought these might be a good children's series.

26:21 So he made a pilot and I had to join the union. And the reason my career started then was, he never sold it as a series, but he got it on local New York television one Sunday morning, they just aired the pilot. And a management company that only handled kids and teens saw it and hunted me down and went, we would like to represent you.

26:43 And so they started my career at age 14, mostly commercials. What was the pilot of it? What was the pilot? It was called Pushcart Players, which is still a children's theater organization in Jersey. Pushcart Players' Feelings and Friends. And it was two little 15-minute music. I played multiple parts.

27:00 They were a little tiny. It's almost like, it was like theater. Theater on television. Isn't it fascinating that that moment where you tried something out, you took the risk to just try something out and all of a sudden you look back and that moment was... It's all... You know, I think for most of the successful people I found, yes, they were, they had the skills for it.

27:23 It's a bunch of happy accidents. It's literally being that right place at the right time. Yes, happy accidents, just a lot of fortune. But one of the things I'm finding, I'm enjoying this a lot. I don't know if I'm good at it, but I'm enjoying it a lot. And one of the connective tissues I see among all these successful people is they try shit out.

27:38 They take risks. They just try things out. And every one of us has their founding story, but they all involve getting outside your comfort zone. But it's my impression that being a comedic actor is harder than a dramatic actor. And interestingly, I'm a great father, so I started watching Breaking Bad with my voice recently.

28:01 It's interesting, both Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, almost the entire ensemble were comedic actors. It's fascinating to me. And I'm connecting the dots that people that can do comedy can do anything. Am I right or am I totally getting it wrong? My general experience is that good comedians are more successful at doing dramatic roles than dramatic actors are doing comedic roles.

28:27 Why? What does it take, because you've been both, what does it take to be a great actor, a great comic actor, a great dramatic actor? Or is it not easy for you to distill it? It's different things for different people. Why people are good at things, it's hard to put your finger on. There are some great actors, who really have mastered the tools.

28:47 There are tools, that was the thing that was so eye-opening to me when I went to school and started studying this, is that there are tools for an actor that you can use. Some people just use the tools brilliantly and they become brilliant actors. Some have an enormous natural empathy and ability to observe so they can empathize with the characters and the situations.

29:12 It opens their heart. and they can deliver the truth of that moment. It's one or the other or somehow? No, sometimes it's combinations. Which is you? For me, mine is mostly, well mine is, and I think that's true for all artists, but you keep developing as you go. But initially my superpower was observation and imitation.

29:34 was how I was able to do most of my early work. With comedic actors, Larry David really opened my eyes to this in an interesting way. In an early Seinfeld episode, George thought he was having a heart attack. Now, Jason goes, okay, we know George is a hypochondriac. Hypochondriacs, you know, if they have a pain, they Google everything and they know everything it can be and what the symptoms are, right?

30:04 I figure George is that kind of hypochondriac. So if he thinks he's having a heart attack, he's going to have the pain in his chest, the pain in his arm, the shortness of breath. He's going to have a heart attack, right? I go to rehearsal and we do the scene and Larry goes, you can't do it that way. I said, what do you mean?

30:20 He goes, it looks like you're having a heart attack. I said, well, he thinks he's having a heart attack. He's not faking it. He thinks he's having a heart attack. And I'm now arguing with Larry about how I'm right because this is what a heart attack would look like and George would know what a heart attack is look like.

30:36 And Larry goes, it's not funny. You have to have a funny heart attack. And he's right. I'm wrong, he's right. And then I had to go, okay, how do I take all this and run it through a filter that makes it funny? Performers that don't have the answer to that question can't do comedy because they're gonna have a real heart attack.

31:05 I mean, that's the difference. Can you give us, including me, some of your toolkit for funny? Because I've found there's so many different types of intelligence and being witty and being funny It's not something, I mean, I'm very good at being self-effacing or whatever, but give us a couple of your toolkit, just a couple of things that you...

31:29 Things that I learned about one of the great influences. I mean, you can see it in George. George borrows very heavily from Jackie Gleason. So what was funny about Jackie Gleason? He was actually a little man in an oversized body with an oversized ego. But he's a very little man. He's a bus driver. He's a simple guy, loves his wife, wants to believe that he wears the pants in the family.

31:53 He does not, you know, wants to believe he's smarter than all his friends. He is not. He's a little man acting big. And part of what Gleason would do is his wife, Alice, would say something cutting, and instead of glossing over it, you'd see him eat it. That's where that George, that's Jackie Gleason going, oh, you're a riot, Alice.

32:21 It's that same sound. So watching Gleason do those physicalities of being belittled, so much of that is George. Woody Allen, it's word choices. It's word choices. He doesn't go, I'm the smartest guy here. He goes, I'm the most profound. It's an elevated diction, and coupled with that New York accent of a guy who's stammering and spitting, but he might be the most articulate guy in the room.

32:54 That's hysterical. When you get hired to do George, Do you then start studying who to be inspired and come up with Jackie Gleason or Glad Gleason came before, did somebody give it to you? How did that come? So my audition for Seinfeld Nobody from the program was there. I was in New York. They were all in L.A.

33:16 They put a couple of guys on tape in New York. And I only had four pages of the original pilot script. So I have no context. I know that they're looking for a Costello for Jerry Seinfeld's Abbott. That's all I know. So it's a second banana. It's a fall guy. When I read those four pages, it read to me like the dialogue of a Woody Allen film.

33:38 So I went, Woody Allen. That's where the glasses came from. I didn't wear glasses at the time. I got a pair of glasses, and I literally was doing Woody Allen. You don't understand, Jerry. Jerry. Right? And those were my choices. Woody Allen. When the call came in from Larry, he said, we love everything you're doing.

34:00 We want to fly you out to read for the network. Love it, just don't be so obviously Woody Allen. So I took out the stammering, the stammering, and I just did a very large New York accent. Then I get the job. And now I'm going, well, how do you play George? Who is he? I don't know who he is, right? So I got Woody Allen in my head, I got a little bit of Jackie Gleason in my head, trying to figure out what this guy is, what is he?

34:23 And you haven't yet figured out that it's Larry. So somewhere about nine episodes in, Nine episodes in? When we did the reading at the table, I wish I could remember the episode, I don't. Whatever it was, I thought the situation that George found himself in was ridiculous. And the way he reacted to it was crazy.

34:46 So I went up to Larry after the reading. And I said, Larry, please help me, help me. I said, okay, we both know that this would never happen to anybody. And if it did, no one would react like this. So what are you going for? Tell me what you're going for and maybe I can understand that. And Larry said, I don't know what you're talking about.

35:04 This happened to me, and this is exactly what I did. And I went, oh, that's the day that it hit me. Wait, let me ask you a question. Were they trying to keep it from you for some reason? No. Or did Larry also not really know that it was him at that point? No. Larry certainly knew that a lot of the storylines were being pulled.

35:23 Larry has notebooks of things that happened to him. And he basically, to create Seinfeld scripts, he and Jerry would go, let's take that and that and that and put it together. So he knew he was drawing from his life. I don't think he thought he was writing his own avatar. But the minute I understood that, then I started watching Larry.

35:43 And Larry, I've done this before for people, Larry has a thing that he does. Like Jackie Gleason had... Right? When Larry gets undercut or thinks he's been undercut, you've seen it, if you watch Curb, you've seen it. He puts his tongue at the base of his bottom teeth and he does this. Yeah. And that's how I learned to do George.

36:11 I've known you for 25 years. You're not George. You're like one of the brightest people I've ever met. No, for real. You're just the sweetest heart. Like you've got the soul, the heart, and the brain. You're not George. George is amazing. I love George, but you're not George. When I do Shark Tank, they ask if the sharks are who they are.

36:29 And when I explain about Mr. Wonderful, have you watched Shark Tank? Yeah. Kevin is like the tough guy. He really is Kevin. He just amplifies it for the TV. And time again, find some of the people that play the biggest jerks. in real life they're actually the salt of the earth sweetest people. Yeah, sure, sure.

36:44 And like, do you still encounter people that demand or assume that you are either the guy for the lawyer for Pretty Woman or the... It's more the George thing. People, when I don't, I mean I still have solid hints of a New York, New Jersey accent when I speak, but when I'm not, you know, doing the thick New York accent and I don't have the glasses and I don't, and I'm not...

37:10 And you're yourself. Yeah. They don't know if I'm putting this on or I put... They're expecting that guy because that's all they know. Still today. Well, that's all they know. I mean, nothing else I've done... I mean, I've had a lovely career. I'm not complaining. But the biggest single impression of me that is repeated over and over and over today is George.

37:31 So if you don't know me from anything other than Seinfeld, it's a big compliment. People go, I didn't think you were acting. I didn't think you were acting. I had another reflection about this. And I've never asked this, and I don't think I've ever talked to anybody about it. And I don't think anybody's ever asked it.

37:46 Every human being has a pinnacle. Sometimes they're not gonna become the most famous actor or whatever, but you were the high school quarterback. And then afterwards, nothing ends up being as big as that. Or your wedding day, or you achieve this, or you achieve that. And you've very majestically managed your journey.

38:10 You have, like, George is one of the most extraordinary characters. If I have to think of 20, 50, like in my life, it's just an incredible Seinfeld for people that didn't, grow up when it was happening. It was a phenomenon. It was like nine years where it was like a huge thing. It was like gigantic phenomena and then it ends.

38:32 And you've gone to have a very elegant journey, but how do you handle accepting that that was a pinnacle? Therapy. You literally went to therapy? You bet. I was in therapy while it was happening. Why? Because you knew it was coming or because you just like therapy? I mean, I knew I... The transition from successful at your job to international celebrity...

39:00 Let me just tell you, I don't care how well you've been raised or who you are, you're going to need some therapy. To keep you grounded? It is a mindfuck. But ongoing therapy for sure. But part of it was that if your dream is to be the quarterback of the Green Bay Packers, you want to be the quarterback, and you don't get that, You never had it.

39:32 That's your thing. It's never achieved it. You never got it. My fantasy of a successful life for myself as an actor, growing up in New Jersey, was getting across the river and working on those Broadway stages. That was the pinnacle for me. I didn't think about television. I didn't think about film. I dreamt about a life in the theater.

39:55 God gave me that starting at age 21. By the time I was 30, I had won a Tony Award. And now they throw in my path, Pretty Woman, some of the other films, Seinfeld. And I now live a life... as an actor that I never dreamt of, never. I never thought I would have this kind of money that I could keep my family the way I keep them, that I would have these opportunities, that I would work with the people I've met.

40:27 So if you hit that and then that goes away, you don't, I would never go, why couldn't I keep that? I go, I can't believe I ever got that. That's not what I was thinking. So for me, life gave me more than I ever dreamed of. I didn't expect that to last. I objectively could sit back. And one of the reasons that we were so adamant at the end about making money on Seinfeld is because I grew up in a time when if you had a hit series on television, you never worked again.

41:03 I mean, that was it. You were defined as that character, Carol Connor, Archie Bunker. He stretched Archie Bunker out a whole long distance, but he never played anything other than Archie Bunker again. Alan Alda, MASH, he never got much beyond that. All these great, particularly television stars, they weren't given usually the kind of huge career after that.

41:27 That was my anticipation. So, you know. But to your point about therapy and about staying grounded or anything like that, I, my sense is life's a lot about expectations. And to your point, if you don't expect that, fine. But also, once we've tried steak, we don't wanna go back to the beans. That's a Mexican expression.

41:46 I don't know if it exists in English. Like the person that's tried the steak, they don't want beans anymore. And I don't know if you had this technique, but I throughout my life have deferred satisfaction. Like once I was in New York and I could afford a one bedroom, I stayed in my studio apartment just a few more years.

42:04 And then I when I could do a two bedroom, I stayed in one my bedroom and just I paced myself. I didn't own any real estate till I was in my 40s. I didn't own a car. I didn't own anything. And. I do feel that once you get spoiled with something, it's easier said than done to be appreciative like you have.

42:25 Like, let me extrapolate. With Kind, my dream was, well, it was PeaceWorks, my first company. But then with Kind, I wanted it to get to $10 million. That was my goal. I didn't think I was going to get past it. And then all of a sudden, you get there and you realize you can go further and further and further.

42:43 And it's exceeded my expectations before anything. And because I had 10 years of failures with my piece of company financial failures, I do think it kept me grounded and not thinking that I am better than people because I messed up just as much. But I don't think it's the easiest thing. For me, my grounding tool is my wife and my kids, conversations with myself, taking risks, and trying to do things that put me in a situation of vulnerability.

43:15 Like, I still hand out kind bars, and sometimes people look at me like, who's this pauper, where is he soliciting me? And it just humbles me enough. Yeah. Do you have techniques like that? Or you're like, no, just going to theater and having to be applauded every night, that's your technique? You know, Danny, I was very lucky in a lot of ways.

43:40 You would think, knowing the little bit I've shared with you about myself as a kid, you would think finally being on stage and having people clap for me would be why I became an actor. It's not why I became an actor. The reason I loved it was I found my people. I had no tribe. I was not a sports kid.

44:00 I was not a brainiac best student. I wasn't cool. I wasn't anything. Yeah. And I went to a rehearsal for a play, and these were my kids. This was my community. So I wanted to be an actor because I could be in that community. It had nothing to do with the applause, really. I loved the challenge of getting on stage.

44:20 I loved the excitement of it. But it wasn't the hardest. I always say to people, the five worst words in all of show business for me are, ladies and gentlemen, Jason Alexander. I'm happy on stage because I'm hiding. I'm somebody else. I'm living someone else's life. I'm telling someone else's story. If I had to tell my story, I'd be much more .

44:43 So part of my groundedness, for whatever that is, is that I wasn't in it for the accolades. I wasn't in it for the compliments. I wasn't in it for the accoutrement of being a star or a celebrity. That's number one. Number two, just like you, is my family. I've been with my wife since I'm 20 years old.

45:03 She knows me. She knows me. And that's who I live with. That's who I go through the world with. She knows Jay Greenspan. She doesn't know Jason Alexander. The third thing was, and it may be our humble magic roots, I know the difference between an illusion and reality. I tell stories and I make illusions for a living.

45:26 I'm not stupid enough to believe in them. I know I'm not powerful. The experience I offer you is powerful. The story I share with you is powerful. The illusion, the thing we share together, the Seinfeld show, me playing George in these little stories has a very powerful effect for people's lives. I've met them.

45:48 The greatest joy for me is when people come up and say, you got me through really dark times. You made me laugh. You brought joy back to me. And I go, the experience did that. I was part of that experience, and I'm so proud to be part of that experience and grateful for it. It's not me. It's the thing we shared together.

46:09 Who you were in that moment, what I was part of in that moment. And when my son Noah sometimes said, Dad, everybody loves you. I go, honey, they don't know me. So you said at one point that you knew that there was never going to be another Seinfeld. I also know there's never going to be another kind.

46:27 Like, I could potentially launch another company and succeed, but I don't take it for granted. And it's very, very, very hard. I'm very unlikely for you to achieve that type of company. But what I tell myself is that I have yet to achieve the most that I can achieve. Like I don't wanna be remembered for kind, I wanna be remembered for builders.

46:47 I wanna build a movement of people that break the chains of hate and that mobilize citizens to regain agency and to hold their politicians accountable and not allow politicians and other forces to divide us. am I living in an illusion and doing that because I'm just questing for meaning and purpose? And is it a little bit like the illusion that you acknowledge is an illusion by you entertaining people?

47:15 Like, I'm not really sure if I'm asking whether our search for meaning is what... is an illusion or whether there actually is truth in the work we do in the how, because every time you entertain that audience, you actually created a beautiful moment for them. It's all yes. It's all yes. And it's, listen, for you and for me and for everybody else, the answer to that question will change day to day, and moment to moment.

47:43 There are times when I think we pursue what we pursue because there's a feeling of I can do or be or experience something more and therefore I should. Sometimes it comes from that. A lot of mine of late and why I am completely grateful and satisfied with how my path has gone is is I finally understand what my mother was telling me all the time as a kid, where she would say, the greatest life you can live is a life of service.

48:18 And I really felt for the longest time I had missed it. You know, I would say to her mom, I do this because I'm good at it. They pay me a lot of money. They treat me very well. I can make my way in the world. I don't think anybody's life is changed or improved because I got a gig. It's about me. And I meant it.

48:43 And that thing that I shared with you about the effect that Seinfeld has had on so many people began to make me understand I stumbled into a life of service. These stories, these things that I can be part of, at any given moment can save someone. It can change their day, change their minute, change their life, maybe, who knows.

49:08 And even in the work I do now, I do a lot of teaching, I do more directing than acting. Why? I'm more interested, if you and I go to work together, I'm more interested in what I can do for you than in what you can do for me. Life has been good enough to me that I go, life, you don't have to give me anything else, except the opportunity to do something that's interesting and engaging and maybe positive.

49:37 But if I show up to a gig now as an actor, as an actor, And I have, it's what I teach when I teach. If I have a two-page monologue and you don't say a word, the most important person in my scene is you, not me. Why am I saying these two pages of things to you? What am I trying to get you to do? What am I offering you?

49:59 What's the response I'm looking for? And how do I get you to know that when you have no lines on the page? You don't even know what your reaction is supposed to be. So I have to give you things in order to make you valuable. and that has become that's my bedrock is there an unsung hero in your life that helped you become who you become and you haven't gotten a chance to acknowledge and that they really had a bigger impact than you realize or that they might realize My second Broadway show, I was 24 years old, and I was cast in a show called The Rink.

50:38 It's not one of the big musicals that has become Broadway legend. But the stars were Liza Minnelli and Chita Rivera. And I love them both, but my story's not about Liza. Chita Rivera, I remember consciously thinking, and I can give you the incident, but in general, my thinking was, if I am ever lucky enough to be the guy, you know, the star of the show or the person on the set or whatever it is.

51:09 This woman is teaching me how to be that leader. So there was a policy, if either of those ladies were to miss a show, the audience could get a refund. You didn't have to watch it. Cheetah would never miss a show. Liza missed a couple of shows. And on this one particular night, Liza was out and the stage management came to Cheetah.

51:33 We're in a 1200 seat theater. And they said, Cheetah, it's totally up to you. There's about a hundred people out there. It's insulting. You don't have to do the show. You don't have to. First of all, it is insulting. Cheetah Rivera was a gigantic Broadway star, and the fact that Liza wasn't there, you know, 1,100 people walked out of the theater, it's insulting.

51:57 But Cheetah hears this, and she says to the stage manager, so the show was Cheetah and Liza and six actors. The boys. We were the boys. She said, if we don't do the show, will the boys lose their salary for the night? And they said, yeah, they would. So she said, well, get the boys. So we were summoned down to her dressing room and she said, here's the situation.

52:22 You know, Liza's out, there's 100 people out there. We don't have to do the show. She said, you know what, if we don't do the show, we'll go to my favorite restaurant, I'll buy dinner, we'll have a party, we'll have a great night on me. But you will lose your salary for the night. She said, on the other hand, Liza's understudy is ready, but she's never had a, what we call a put-in rehearsal where all the elements are there.

52:48 There's 100 people. We could think of it as a put-in rehearsal for her. See how it goes, we'll do the show. And you know what, then we'll go out and we'll have a celebration, we'll bring her with us. Either way, whatever you guys wanna do, it's 100 people, you don't have to do the show. And we went, let's do the second one.

53:07 We'll do the show, we'll get paid, we'll still go out and have a great time. And we thought, and we're going to screw around. We don't care what we do. We're going to have a blast out there. We're going to horse around. We're going to do stupid stuff. And Chita must have seen that look in our eye, that devilish look.

53:25 And she said, boys, the hundred people that stayed, stayed. Give them our show. And that's when I went, at this moment... where she could have been so offended and so diminished in her own eyes. Her first concern was her colleagues. Her second concern was her audience. Her last concern was herself. And that's what I clocked.

53:54 And that's when I went, she is here to teach me what success looks like in this business. I love that story and it reminds me a lot. I had never appreciated, now I connect the dots on what you're saying about how you care about what you're giving to that audience. And it's kind of like in consumer product goods, if you win is if you're thinking about your consumer, not about yourself.

54:19 You think about your team and you think about your consumer. And if you're just thinking about yourself, it's not going to work out. And that's like the parallel. Wow, that's so beautiful. Amazing. I have one last question before we go to our final segment, which is, is there a question I didn't ask you that I should have asked you or a question that you've never been asked that people should have asked you until now?

54:41 What people don't talk about and it happens to everyone I know, is what happens when you do get what you want? When you get more than what you thought you want? I alluded to it before about I started therapy, really started therapy as Seinfeld began to be a thing. What happens to people when they go from living their lives to living their lives under a microscope on this huge scale, I don't know anybody that is prepared for it, particularly in our world now where that microscope is unending, you can't get away from it.

55:30 It took me, The better part of 30 years to understand how to deal with it, navigate it, what to make of it, how to be. You know, it's so funny, Danny. I went to therapy from about 30 to almost 50. And then I took a break for about 10 years. And when I was 60, I'm 66 now. When I was 60, I went back, same therapist.

55:59 And she said, why are you here? And I said, well, I'm coming into, I think, my third act of my life. I have been so many avatars, both intentionally, I've played so many roles, but I've tried to be so many things in my childhood, in my adolescence, in my adulthood, in my marriage, as a father, in business, that I don't know which one is real.

56:29 I don't know what's real. I don't really know who I am, or what I really feel about anything. And I'd like to find out. I may not like the one that it is. I may not choose to live my life as that. But I'd like to at least know who that guy is. Well, we're going to move now to our last segment. Okay. Which is a rapid-fire segment called The Mexican Inquisition.

56:56 Oh, jeez. Oh, jeez. You need to tell me build or break. Build or break. Build is up, break is down. Okay. Ready? I'm ready. The Seinfeld finale. For me, it's a build. But I can tell you why. It's not because of the story. It's not whether it was a good episode or a bad episode. We were a very unsentimental show.

57:19 Larry and Jerry found a way to bring back every actor that was important to our success, that was meaningful to our journey, to share that finale with us, and I thought that was gorgeous. So, build. Build or break sitcoms filmed with a live audience. Generally build because it's a real reaction. The problem is it's not always a real reaction because you've got somebody in the crowd going, come on, make it.

57:46 So it's a little bit of false and inflated. But the idea of it, build. Build or break, bluffing a busted flush. Personal history break. I'm very bad at getting them to believe me. Jason's like a very big deal in the poker circles. You've won some stuff. I've won some stuff, not the big stuff. I win when I'm playing for somebody else.

58:07 Do you remember you invited me once? I almost went with you. Build or break pro shot Broadway shows. A qualified build. It is a great archival of something that, you know, theater is just, the people who saw it, it lives in memory. So I like the idea of the preservation. I can tell you that with the possible exception of Hamilton, I've never seen a live performance captured on video that did what the live performance did.

58:36 They usually, they're not built for the camera. Build or break theater as an investment. Oh. Well, if it's my show and I'm coming to you for money, build. But if I'm your friend and you're saying, hey, I'm putting money in, I'd go, break. Build for the right reasons. Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, most of them lose money.

58:58 Build or break Jewish delis in Los Angeles. Break. Break. We can't get a bagel worth its... But you took me once, I think, to Cantor's. On Larchmont Street in Larchmont Village, there's a good bagel store. Cantor's is an okay deli. Where did you take me? Do you happen to remember? It was either Cantor's or Factors.

59:17 Those are the two. Yeah, Factors. Yeah. And you know what used to be good? Not quite a deli, but Steven Spielberg's mom... had a restaurant, a kosher restaurant called the Milky Way. Oh, really? And that was really good. Not there anymore? She's passed away and I don't think the restaurant's there anymore.

59:33 Build or break a residency at the Magic Castle? It was one of the great... successes of my life, I don't know that it was worth the years it took off my life. I've never been more frightened than my life. That's by the way, when I perform magic, I get so intimidated because it would take so much preparation.

59:57 I love it, but it's just, it's a real commitment. Scariest thing I've ever done. It's very intimidating, right? You really have to, but you were voted Parlor Magician of the Year. Yeah, I was able to do something that my first night, mine was a mentalist actor. My first audience was a room full of mentalists.

1:00:13 And I went, oh, Jesus, this is so stupid. But they, I was able to do something that they think about all the time, and they were like, you cracked it, you cracked it. Build or break, celebrities speaking out. It is a build. With some provisos. Of course. If you feel strongly and passionately about something, if you're informed about something, if your purpose in speaking out is for the benefit of others, of course it's a build.

1:00:45 Most of the time, those conditions are not met. Right? We are not fully informed. We have not fully thought it through. Sometimes it's, you know, we're just grandstanding about something. My grandfather from my mom's side used to have things like, can I say something you'd say, if you're gonna say it in my favor, yes.

1:01:02 If not, shut up. Celebrity speaking out, if it's an issue you agree with, call for it. We need you. I will say this. Why don't you just be quiet? Just on a personal level, I'm not a big fan of award shows. In general. But I don't think that that is generally the platform for that kind of stuff. Build or break theater house traditions.

1:01:22 Theater house traditions. Give me an example. Break a leg, merde. I saw when you had your last play, you were saying merde, merde. I find it so cute. So there's a friend of mine wrote a thing called The Actor's Handbook about how you comport yourself. And I did the forward for it. And I said, there are many traditions and superstitions in the theater.

1:01:45 I don't believe in any of them. And I respect every one of them. Because somebody else does. And I am not there to rain on their parade or to compromise what they need to do their work. Plus... Weitemtriest. Yeah, right, exactly. Weitemtriest. Build or break, playing yourself on television. Hate it, break.

1:02:06 You didn't enjoy that? I loved it because it was our Seinfeld reunion. Yeah. But it makes me crazy when people go, we have a cameo in this movie, we'd love you to do it. I go, uh-huh. You play yourself. And I go, uh-huh. What version of me are you talking about? You mean George? You mean George. Fuck you.

1:02:23 Yeah. Yeah, I don't, it's not my favorite thing. Jason, I love you and I really enjoy this. That was so stimulating. Thank you so much. You are, you remain, you know I've said this before. When people said you have heroes, you're one of my heroes. I think the work you do in this world is extraordinary.

1:02:41 And you changed my life in many ways. And I now and forever adore you. And I'm so grateful to have you in my life. We'll continue sending more Kabbalahs. All right. Yeah, exactly. Pleasure, brother. We want you to become a builder with us. So subscribe to Builder Break now and leave us a comment or a review.

1:03:04 We're trying to build a movement and you can be part of it by hitting the notification bell and telling us what you think about this episode and by telling all your friends to watch too. Thank you.