Room 1046

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

This is Buried Bones.

Hey, Kate, how are you?

I'm doing great. It is a week and a half, maybe, before Halloween.

Yeah.

Which is my favorite holiday. I mean, how many years have I said this? This is like the fifth year in a row.

I know. You're quite predictable about that.

How many times have I started an episode around mid-October? Like, I love Halloween. But... You know, I've talked about my parents' farmhouse and it was haunted and blah, blah. I don't know if it was or not. But have you ever had any haunted experiences ever or experiences that you can't explain very well? Or what do you, you know, what's your thing?

No, you know, this is where, you know, for me, I've never experienced anything where I go, what was that? Right. So I, it's, it's, this is where, you know, you know, my skepticism is high, but then I've, you know, I, I know some people who I, I thoroughly trust and some of the experiences that they've had where I go, okay, well, maybe I need to reconsider. I just haven't been in a situation to where I could attribute it to what people would call a haunting. I think the closest, and I'm not even sure you'd say it's, it's my own personal experience, but I was at a bar in Bend, Oregon.

And I got chatting with the bartender. And he's going, this place is famous for being haunted. And it's downtown Bend. And he goes, I experienced it. And he goes, I sat, you know, a beer mug down on the bar. And the ghost slid it all the way across the bar. And he goes, I caught it on camera. So supposedly, well, I can verify he did post it up on YouTube.

So I saw that, and yeah, you see him put the beer mug on the bar, and it slid across. But me being the skeptic, I'm going, I think there's some fluid dynamics going on with the condensation of the beer mug, or there's a co-conspirator with a magnet underneath that somehow is attracting the beer mug. So I don't know.

That's where... I think I'm sort of just in sort of a gray area on whether or not I believe the whole haunting aspect.

You know, the position I take is on hauntings, the same position I take on, you know, aliens and that sort of thing. The things that are nebulous that some people believe in, some people don't. I think that without a lot, a lot of evidence, I'm not sure how much I believe some of this stuff, but I don't think I'm arrogant enough to say... No, this doesn't exist. No, there are, you know, people or aliens on other planets. Like, I'm never going to say that because I could be wrong and I'm probably wrong. So, you know, people have experiences and sometimes it doesn't really matter to some people.

You know, if they're grieving and, you know, they feel like their loved one has come back to them and said something or... A butterfly flies by and that's your husband. I mean, I'm not going to begrudge anybody that. I'm not going to call them out on that. Who cares? You know, I mean, life is hard and whatever gets you through it now, you know, in Buried Bones, we're going to have some spooky stories since we're Halloween-y right now.

And so, I don't know. There's some weird stuff out there.

Well, you know, I was completely expecting some sort of Halloween-based case that you're going to be bringing up. So, I'm prepared.

Well, we're going to ease into the Halloween season.

Okay.

And we're starting with a locked door mystery.

Literally. Okay.

Locked door mystery.

Okay.

It's in Kansas City, Missouri in 1935. And it is not just a whodunit. It's a who is it? So we have a double issue here. There's a double issue. So, you know, let's go ahead and set the scene. okay, here we go. I love a good locked door mystery. Trying to figure out what happened, you know?

Yeah, well, I guess I'm not sure what a locked door mystery is.

Well, there's sort of, and sometimes people call them locked door puzzles, where it just seems impossible. And most of the time, it's literally like the door is locked, somebody's dead, there doesn't seem to be any entry, but nobody can prove how this person got in, why this person died, they just know it's murder. And so, you know, usually when we talk about murder, it's sort of obvious either who the person is or how they at least accessed it, how the person died. But, you know, the locked door mystery, they're very Agatha Christie, Alfred Hitchcock. And, you know, so I like a good mystery.

Yeah, well, first time I've heard that term, obviously in law enforcement, it's not a term that we use. If we have a locked door, we breach the door.

This is not a kick in the door mystery, but I think you're going to enjoy it. So let's go ahead and get into it.

All right.

Kansas City, Missouri, and we are in January of 1935. It's 11 o'clock in the morning, and we're at a swank hotel for once. I feel like we're not often at swank hotels. We've had a handful usually. We're in the seedier places.

Sure.

But this is called the Hotel President, and it's just a few blocks from the Central Library in what is today known as the Power and Light District. I don't know Kansas City very well, but, you know, this is a big hotel. It's swank, and, you know, you have to have some money to be there, you know? Yeah.

So that's where we start.

Okay. Yeah, and my only experience with Kansas City is when I was doing the TV show DNA of Murder.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and we stayed in Kansas city and there was a case that occurred up in Iowa, but the couple who had been hatcheted to death in their hotel room originated out of St. Joseph's just North of Kansas city. Okay. But then I did a Kansas city case, uh, you know, so while I was out there, the suburbs had just been ripped apart by a tornado. So I went out and, And drove through that area with my co-host. And while out there, there was this huge train of Jeeps coming in.

Oh, Paul. Your beloved Jeep.

Yes. It was a local Jeep club coming in to do their rescue stuff. It was very cool.

I think probably everybody knows Paul is just crazy about his Jeep. If you could marry a car, Paul would marry this Jeep.

And it is.

Not past its prime, but it gives you a lot of problems. We're not going to go down this road too much because I know how much you can talk about this Jeep. But last time you texted me, it was on like a tow truck or a flatbed or something.

That's a very common experience.

So this is good. So this is you have a you have a good memory here to work off.

I do.

Yes. We're in the Swank Hotel and there is a hotel bellboy who is going up the elevator to room 1046. And this mystery is often called what happened in room 1046.

Okay.

So the person who rented this room, rented it specifically, he wanted it to be on the 10th floor and interior. So it faces the courtyard. It doesn't face the outside kind of bustling street and stuff. So the guy who rented this place, his name is Roland T.

Owens.

Okay. And This is some great little part of history here. The historical context, I always like to talk about who sounds the alarm first when something's wrong in different parts of history. And it is the hotel operator. So this is what happens around seven o'clock in the morning, almost four hours earlier, Roland's phone inside the room had been left open and the operator was trying to figure out what happened. And, you know, she can see that, I guess, or hear that. So she sends the bellboy to reset the receiver on the base. And, you know, so he would just knock on the door and say, hey, I need to put this, you know, your phone is open.

Let me put it up. And at the time when he goes up there at 710 in the morning, there's a do not disturb sign on the knob. He knocks. Someone with a deep voice says, come in and turn on the lights. So this is at 710 and the timing here is important. So the bellboy doesn't want any part of this. They have plenty of drunk guests. He's not going into a dark room with some guy saying, you know, come in. So he doesn't go inside. He just says, OK, well, I'm not going to worry about this phone. And he goes back downstairs, reports it to the telephone operator. And so this is, you know, this is the person at first, the hotel operator who says something's wrong. And I was trying to think, what would the today thing be? It wouldn't be the phone because

the person at the front desk I don't think would know if there was something going on strange with the phone. So I don't really know why this was reported sooner than it might be today under certain circumstances, you know?

You know, kind of thinking about the phone systems back then. I bet this was a relatively common experience for the hotel operator. People just accidentally leaving the phone off the hook. It's now an open circuit. I don't know if that would create problems for other phones in the hotel. But 1935 phone system, I bet that that was something that they had to pay attention to just because it may have an issue to the rest of the hotel at some level. It could.

And I mean, you know, this is annoyance, I'm sure, to the operator. So that's why she sends the bellboy up at 710.

Okay.

So it's now 830 and the hotel operator says, this is still off the hook. So she sends a different bellboy up to 1046. He gets there. Now he is trying the door because the operator said, you need to get inside. And the door is locked from the outside. This is not uncommon. And I don't think hotel rooms are like this today. But the way it worked was there was the equivalent of a deadbolt on the outside.

And then there was the lock on the inside that would be an automatic lock. So, you know, you open the door with a knob and then it locks automatically behind you. And the idea had been that, you know, that way nobody can lock you inside the room or you can't accidentally somehow get locked inside the room or whatever.

They can always access the room. It's just a little odd that the guest was given the key. And so somebody took the guest's key or it was somebody in the hotel who had master keys and locked the door behind them.

Okay, so just to clarify, because, you know, today... it sounds like it's the same setup because now it's just electronic from the outside. But these rooms are locked from the outside. So you have to have the card key in order to get in. So it sounds in 1935, it was a deadbolt that the person that's going to be staying in that room would be handed the hard key to undo the deadbolt to be able to get into the room. And then once in the room, there's a secondary lock that that person could unlock you know, turn in order to lock the door. So somebody on the outside can't come in. And so it's, it's kind of, I would say it's, it's the same setup. So it sounds like this door is closed, but the, the deadbolt

has been turned as if somebody like the person staying in the room, when they left, they put a hard key in, turned it and walked away as if they were going to be gone for the day.

Yeah. Right, but this is not something that people would normally do. You would turn the doorknob, walk out the door, let the door shut behind you, and not use the deadbolt. It would lock automatically behind you. But just like a hotel now, I always put the deadbolt on, you know, when I'm going to sleep. Someone took the extra step of taking that key and locking the deadbolt from the outside.

Okay.

And, you know, he would be able to, whoever was inside, if it's Roland, he'd be able to open it, but this is ensuring, you know... something that would be harder for people to get into. So they think this is odd. The bellboy thought the guest had just gone out for the day, so he went inside to hang up the phone.

But when he's inside, he says there's a man on the bed. He is alive, but he's naked and he's breathing very heavily. There is a dark shadow on the bed, which I think eventually they'll think is blood. And just like the bellman before, this one says, oh, he's drunk. So he puts the phone back on its base, and then he leaves. So he just thinks this is a drunk guy. He didn't turn any lights on, so he couldn't see whether this was blood or not. So the bellboy takes off. So that's 8.30 in the morning. So now it's 11 a.m., two and a half hours later, and the operator, I think, is saying, you know, you need to go back upstairs to check on this guest, because they both report that he was drunk. So... She

sends up the first bellboy. He ignores the do not disturb sign. He goes inside. And then two feet from the door, he finds this guest, Roland, the one who was on the bed and naked. He's naked still. He's crawling on his hands and knees. His head is bleeding profusely. And the bellboy looks around and there's blood splattered on the bed and on the walls or on the ceiling.

And it looks like he's lost a lot of blood. So Roland is crawling towards the door, trying to get out the door. And the bellhop races downstairs to get help to alert the hotel management. So he and the assistant manager go back to the room. And this time they can't really get in because Roland had basically made it almost all the way to the door. And they could only open the door about six inches. And they call the police. And we've got a couple of detectives that show up as well as a doctor. And by this time they were able to get into the room.

Roland is not on the floor anymore, but he's still alive, and he's sitting on the edge of his bathtub.

Okay.

But he's still alive, and it's a small enough bathroom where he's leaning forward and his head is on the sink.

Okay, but he's conscious.

He's conscious, and he's going to talk a little bit.

Kind of just thinking about the little bit that you've told, this shadow on the bed, which, as you said, is probably going to be blood. Blood. as well as you've got blood that's on the walls and the ceiling, that type of pattern would be consistent with Roland having received multiple blows, producing pooled blood sources. And now you have a blood spatter that is going up onto the walls, potentially on the ceiling, cast off from, let's say, a bludgeoning weapon. And I'm absolutely speculating, but this is, at least with what I'm hearing, I'm starting to picture a crime scene that you have an intruder inside this room of some sort, whether the person was invited in or not, and ended up bludgeoning Roland on the bed. Roland's naked,

and this is where victimology comes in. Is this how Roland would actually sleep, or is this indicating that possibly Roland had You know, some sort of maybe sexual encounter planned or was involved in a sexual encounter and things went sideways. You know, but at least the injuries are not immediately fatal. Roland is at least cognizant enough to be able to crawl across the floor and get up on the edge of the bathtub. You know, so... that if homicide was the intent, they at least at this point did not inflict enough damage to immediately kill Roland.

Well, listen to what happened to this guy. So the very first thing, of course, they notice is there's blood in the bathroom and he is bound in several different places. That's why he was crawling on his knees and his elbows. So there's a clothesline cord that is around his neck, his wrists, and his ankles. And it is not the hog tie, if that's what you're going to ask. It says cord. So I think all of these different things are tied with each other. Separately.

Yeah, separately. So he's got clothesline tied around his neck. He's got another length of clothesline tied around his wrists, as well as another length tied around his ankles. but they're interconnected with clothesline, or are they three separate pieces of binding?

Three separate. And that's why he was able to crawl or whatever. His hands were bound, and so that's why he was on his elbows. And he managed to get himself up, I guess, onto the edge of the bathtub with these injuries. So there's bruising around his neck, which the doctor thinks obviously is part of a strangulation attempt.

His chest has been stabbed multiple times. one lung is punctured. At least three blows have been delivered to his head. It looks like they were made with the butt of a gun or a hammer. I guess the impression shows that. His skull is fractured on the right side. His wrists are slashed and his ear is cut and they don't find the weapon. And I think I just said this, the clothesline is not from the hotel. So the doctor says that, you know, he looks at the dried blood and the coagulase or whatever and And he says that the first wounds were inflicted six or seven hours earlier.

So a lot of dried blood between 4 a.m. and 5 a.m. is what they think.

Yeah, I don't think he can draw that conclusion.

Probably not. And he's still alive.

Well, you know, obviously there's a lot of violence being inflicted on Roland. The bruising around his neck, it sounds like there was manual strangulation. Then you have the clothesline tied around his neck, potentially as a ligature, I'm assuming, versus, you know, a form of control. Stab wounds, blunt force trauma to the head. So it's multimodal in terms of what the offender is doing to Roland. You mentioned cut wrists.

That would be interesting to see. Right now, everything sounds like this is a definitive homicide, but I can't necessarily rule out suicide if there's a certain sequence of events that Roland did to himself. So this will be interesting to see how it plays out.

What's sad to me is that when I read this part, you know, it's 11 a.m. And you think about it, the first time somebody encounters him, aside from the person who did this, if somebody did this, was four hours ago, the bellboy going up there. So if the bellboy had got in, like clearly Roland was the one who said, come in and turn on the light. I mean, I would guess. And if he had gone in and flipped on the light and saw this. You know, he might have been able to be saved because he doesn't die until midnight. And he does die.

Okay.

So he has injuries, but he stayed alive a very long time.

Yeah, I guess, you know, I'm not convinced that that's necessarily Roland's voice at this point. Because it's later that they find the deadbolt engaged. I think it was when the second bellboy went up there at 830. So at 710 a.m., that bellboy gets scared off. How can we say that that was Roland saying, come in and turn on the lights?

Well, I guess I was thinking, well, number one, the first bellboy, I don't believe, even tried the door. So if somebody were in there with him, he could have been gone for hours and hours already. So it's only until 8.30 when he notices, the second one notices the bolt. And I guess I was thinking, if someone's in there killing Roland, I guess it could be someone trying to get the bellboy in to kill him too or participate somehow but to me what i was picturing more was roland coming in and kind of needing help and asking for help but i i don't know who knows.

Yeah i think it's right now i think that that's just a an open question yeah you know it's it could have been roland it i'm thinking it also could have been uh somebody else.

You're right so well roland has some interesting answers what they can get out of him Remember, he doesn't die until 13 hours later, but he doesn't say much. So the doctor who responds cuts off the bindings from Roland and says, who hurt you? And Roland says, nobody. And then he says, oh, I accidentally fell against the tub.

And Dr. Flanders, who's the one who responded, said, was this fall an attempt to take your own life? And Roland says, no. And then he starts mumbling incoherently as anybody with stab wounds in their chest would. And something comes out that sounds maybe like Elmira, but they never put anything together. And then he passes out and he dies after midnight that night at the hospital.

Okay.

And the big mystery is who is Roland?

Which I think you're going to tell me who Roland was. And maybe that might be enlightening as to what's going on here.

With those injuries, are you surprised that he stayed alive as long as he did?

I guess I'm not necessarily surprised. I think it's more of, yeah, that's an extreme amount of injuries for him to have survived. But we've seen that in cases many times before. But that extent of injuries, generally, most people would succumb to those injuries pretty quickly.

Okay. Well, let's try to figure out who Roland is because, you know, of course, the investigators think that's how we'll figure out who killed him is who is this guy. The hotel doesn't know much about him. And they say he checked into the hotel president two days earlier on January 2nd at 1.20 p.m. Now, this is probably all going to sound to you very tedious. And I know this is important, of course, but there are a lot of details about the timeline here. So he checks in at 1.20 p.m. They said he's neatly dressed. He looks young.

But he didn't have any luggage, which they thought was really odd because he stayed two days. He only had a comb, a hairbrush, and a tube of toothpaste. He told the staff that he had been staying in another hotel, the Mulebach, but that it was too pricey. The hotel president was, you know, it was expensive. So I don't know how much pricier this other hotel was, but that's how he ended up at the hotel president. Hmm. The hotel staff looks at him and they think that he's somewhere between 20 and 35 years old. He had a cauliflower ear and a large scar. And the scar ran horizontally along the left side of his head. He combed his hair over this disfigurement, it was really big, to hide a large bald patch on his scalp. Now, I've

got photos. So if you look at the packet I sent you, there are two photos. So there's one of him dead laying on his back. And then you'll see there's one to the side where you can actually see the scar, which is pronounced.

Okay. Yeah. So the first photo, yeah, and this is just a photo of Roland's probably from chest level up his face. He's laying flat on his back. His eyes are closed. It's a very poor photo, so it's hard to discern any type of details. I mean, it looks like he's clean shaven. No facial hair. You know, I would say, yeah, you know, mid-20s to mid-30s would probably be the age range that I would put him. And then the next photo is a photo, portrait photo from Roland's left side. I'm assuming this was taken at autopsy, though it's only showing from the upper part of his neck up. But it is showing this large bare spot kind of in the left temple area of his hair.

He looks like he has a reasonably thick head of dark hair. And so this bald spot is very pronounced. It's interesting to me, you know, is that the upper margin of the bald spot, it kind of starts up high and then you see it go down. So it looks like an upside down triangle. But that upper margin is very, very straight. That doesn't look like, you know, you will see there's forms of alopecia in which people will lose, you know, like quarter size or half dollar size, you know, spots of hair. This, those usually are typically more circular or oval, you know, that look more natural.

This doesn't. And so if it's a scar, then that top margin probably is the, you know, if he, let's say, hit his head against a sharp edge, that's probably where the initial part of this defect occurred from a prior wound, or it was, this is showing the shape of whatever he hit his head on that caused If the bald spot is caused by scar tissue versus some other type of scenario.

Well, at least we've got some good photos. I usually can't give you photos, so there you go. And you get to see them.

Well, I get to see them. I wouldn't call these good photos. It's not showing his cauliflower ear. His left ear looks, at least in this photo, looks like it's normal. In law enforcement, you always are wary of guys with cauliflower ears.

Why? Because they've been in a lot of fights?

Yes. They're wrestlers. They're in jiu-jitsu. They're probably very skilled at fighting. And so that's something, even in the academy, the experienced defensive tactics instructors would say, if you see a cauliflower ear, get back up. Oh, okay.

Sorry to all of you guys and gals with cauliflower ears. I'm assuming everybody knows what that looks like, right? It's sort of like... extra piece of flesh that's on your ear from being punched over and over again?

Yeah, you know, or other types of forces being applied to the ear. But in essence, yeah, the ear takes on a very fleshy appearance. A lot of the folds in the ear kind of look more enclosed, and it can have a wide variety of appearances. But generally, you know, cauliflower ears, at least in my experience, are due to the athletic side, though it could be through street fights or something else.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so the hotel staff is only with him for two days because he dies on the second or third day he's there, but they notice some strange behavior. It's the cleaning staff. So you've got the hotel operator who's alerting people, and the cleaning staff is actually kind of like our best witnesses to this. The housekeeper said that he always looked worried and afraid They said that he sat alone in his room with the shades drawn and only a dim lamp lit for much of the time.

So for a young man, this was not, you know, he was not relaxed and seemingly on vacation. He seemed paranoid. So he checks in on January 2nd. The afternoon housekeeper, her name is Mary Soptic, she comes by and he says, when she finishes servicing the room, he says, leave the door unlocked. Because I have somebody who's going to come in.

I have a friend of mine who's coming. So she did. And when she went back to the room at four o'clock a few hours later, the door is still unlocked. And on the desk, she finds a note. And it's written in pencil. And it's presumably from Roland. And he says, Don, I will be back in 15 minutes.

Wait.

And it's Don, like D-O-N, like a male name. So the next morning, Mary overhears a phone call between Roland and Don. And I think it's because he references Don in the phone call. So Roland is saying over and over again, no, I am not hungry. And he says it several times. Then at four o'clock, she says she heard two men arguing inside the room. And there was a stranger's voice, not Roland's, that told her that the room didn't need to be serviced because it was afternoon service.

And so she left. Now, let me tell you the I am not hungry part and then you can go. So the amateur sleuths online speculate that no, I'm not hungry is mafia talk for I can't speak right now. Someone else is in the room.

Okay.

Which actually might make more sense than Roland protesting the fact that he's not hungry. He doesn't want food. So either Don's being pushy about food or it's something else maybe.

Yeah, well, I can't speak to that code. Maybe that is a well-known phrase or it's just, you know, some sort of established form of communication between, you know, Roland and somebody else just indicating, hey, you know, I can't speak freely at this moment. I wouldn't dispute that that's a possibility. At this point, though, there appears to be sufficient evidence that there is another male, presumably named Don, at least he went by Don, that was inside Roland's room.

So there gives some indication that maybe this Don... could be the one that inflicted the injuries to Roland for some reason. Roland stayed addressed, being completely naked. That causes me to raise my eyebrows in terms of what potentially was the relationship between this Don and Roland. But at this point in time, it at least lends the theory that somebody came in, possibly named Don, and is one responsible for Roland's death.

And let me remind you of the sequence. So he checks in, and he leaves a note behind, and the housekeeper, you know, is supposed to leave the door open. So we don't know if somebody showed up, Don, the friend, but the note says, I'll be back in 15 minutes. Then the next day, there's this phone call with Don.

I am not hungry. I am not hungry. And then later that day, Mary hears two men arguing. So, you know, maybe the guy showed up the day before. Maybe he didn't. But there's two men inside.

Now....

We have that night hotel guests who are irritated because it sounds like there is a group of men and women arguing on the 10th floor. They cannot pinpoint it to 1046 or Roland. But we know there was a loud argument, which, I mean, could have been a party. We don't know.

Who knows?

It could have been a big argument.

Right.

So now we're kind of present day crime scene and the officers are searching the room, but they don't have a lot of luck with clues. Because all of Roland's belongings are gone. His black overcoat that they saw him wear, the shirt, the undershirt, the pants, the socks, the shoes, everything's missing. And also someone took the hotel soap, the shampoo, and the towels. The only thing they find is a label torn from a cheap necktie. There's also a hairpin.

which could be used for other things, but typically a lady's hairpin, an unsmoked cigarette, an unusual bottle of diluted sulfuric acid.

Okay.

And two water glasses. One glass is in the sink and it's missing a jagged piece. The other glass is on the shelf above the sink. Detectives are lifting fingerprints from this glass and they say it probably belongs to a woman, you know, because I'm assuming they were small. But they also find four fingerprints on the telephone stand where his telephone is kept. So what do you think about all that? No clothes, no nothing, no possessions.

I think you said it was Mary heard two men arguing inside the room. Do they hear Roland call the other man Don at that point?

No.

Okay.

And she knew Roland's voice well enough to know that he was not the one that called her off and said, no, we don't need to be serviced right now.

It's hard to say that Don was arguing with Rollo. I don't think we can draw to that conclusion. Now, the witnesses hearing, you know, men and women on the 10th floor, you know, now it's like, yeah, can we pinpoint that to room 1046 or not? That's kind of hard to draw that conclusion. The physical evidence in the crime scene is interesting. You know, the presence of two glasses...

That could indicate that there had been some sort of amiable, what do you want to say, social occasion where people are just having drinks, talking. We look for evidence of normal life behavior that could indicate who the offender is. Is this somebody that Roland is comfortable enough with to sit down and have a glass of wine with?

To me, the most important thing is why would you have an unused bottle of diluted sulfuric acid and everything else is like an unspoked cigarette and there was a cheap necktie label that was torn off and one hairpin.

You know, some of these are small items, you know, and I've been in plenty of hotel rooms that were supposedly cleaned and you do find something like a hairpin, you know, that has, you know, kind of been underneath the bed or wasn't cleaned up. So it's kind of hard to attribute like the... You know, the tag from the cheap necktie to anything contemporaneous to Roland's death or the hairpin. The dilute sulfuric acid, I'm confused by that as well. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

Or is this something that was more common, you know, for people to possess back in 1935 for some reason?

It is used sometimes as a heavy-duty household cleaner or drain opener.

Wow. Okay.

Yeah. This was hard. I mean, they use this industrially with batteries. So, yeah, this was hard stuff. I mean, would this be a, we're going to dissolve the body?

You have to have a lot of it. Yeah. I, of course, have a lot of experience in the lab with sulfuric acid, and it is a very strong acid. Now, being dilute, it's not going to be as strong, but it's not something to trifle with. You don't want to get it on your skin. Right. So that's a little confusing.

And if it's a cleaning agent, and I can understand it being a cleaning agent, are we sure that it's not something that the hotel didn't leave behind, hotel staff leave behind?

I don't know. I mean, I'm also reading that it was used sometimes for applications like killing weeds or processing local materials. I don't think this, I mean, the hotel would have said, oh, yeah, that's one of ours. Somebody brought that in for some reason.

Okay. Torture? I would think, yeah, the hotel staff would probably say, oh, yeah, that's, whoops, we left it behind. I think that, yeah, the sulfuric acid is just sort of a curiosity for me at this point. And then you mentioned that they were able to recover some latents. Now, are they able to identify the latents?

Well, and you know the problem, Paul. It's a hotel room. So, yeah, they pulled four fingerprints from the telephone stand. I'm surprised they didn't pull more from that. I mean, there's got to be thousands of people on there. But we don't know much about the fingerprints just yet. Here's the big problem.

We can't figure out who Roland is because Roland T. Owen doesn't exist. So they try to find the family so that they can get some help figuring out what happened to this guy. And they look at the hotel registration form and you have to put where you're from, your name and where you're from. He says Los Angeles.

And when they talk to LAPD, they say there is no Roland T. Owens who has ever lived in LA. And there's no record in the guest registry of at the other hotel, the Mulebach Hotel, where he said he was. But there is a Eugene K. Scott from L.A. at that hotel. Maybe it's the same guy. But Eugene came to that hotel with a little bag. And as you would suspect, Eugene Scott does not come from L.A. There's no proof. So we might be looking at somebody who is checking in and checking out of places under an assumed name?

So 1935, you know, at autopsy, they would be getting, getting Roland's 10 prints, you know, in order to try to identify him. And, you know, we do that to this day. Um, you know, so this is where I'm, I'm not real clear as to how robust the FBI's fingerprint database was in 1935. Right. You know, so that, that, that's my first question is, did they at least try to You know, but yeah, if this guy in 1935 is using assumed names and a different name every time he's checking in and checking out, that is going to be difficult to track down. It is.

And they are trying. So they're looking through cases, missing persons cases from across the country, not just Kansas City. And they run a sketch. Now, you and I talk about these sketches all the time. So Look at your sketch and tell me what you think about the sketch of Roland that ran in newspapers everywhere.

Oh, good God.

I mean, they are not doing Roland justice. I think he's much more handsome than this guy. And I think his scar's bigger, too. I mean, what happened? He looks like Roland at 55 or 60.

Yeah, no, this is just absolutely useless. Yeah. You know, that, come on. They could have done better.

Much better. Yeah.

So, you know, but also, though, you know, Roland, you know, the cauliflower ear, this the scar, his his physical characteristics, you know, most certainly there there's some identifying information that might stand out to somebody, you know, you know, and I would I would say I'm assuming that the photo, the first photo you showed me of him just laying on his back and the full face feature. that when that photo was taken it's a much better photo and by you know just cropping it to show his face that would have been you know the way to go versus that stupid sketch.

Yeah and i that looks like a photo of a photo of a photo then that we scanned you know whatever that's what we're getting scanned in yeah so yeah it's not it's not good and i and you know what i imagine is They are going to get tips in, and we do get to see movement from Roland to try to back up into this timeline. They must have then followed up with one of these dead photos to the witnesses who were coming in and say, is this the guy? Because obviously the sketch is piss poor.

Yeah. Well, I can't imagine, you know, a detective being handed that sketch and going, oh, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and release this to the press. It would have been, no, try again. Go back and redo this.

So let's go back to the night before the murder. So he is found 11 a.m. on January 4th. This is 12 hours earlier. So 11 p.m. And there is a Kansas City Department of Water employee who says he saw a hurt person, hurt guy, the night that Roland was murdered. He thinks it's Roland. It was really cold that night, but the guy was only wearing pants and shoes and an undershirt. January, Kansas City. It's probably really, really cold. Yeah. But the man was only wearing these items.

He appeared to be wounded. There was a deep scratch on his left arm. And his hands were, you know, he was holding his hands in a way that made the employee think that he had a wound that was way more profound than just the scratch. He said he was almost holding his hands like he was trying to catch blood from his body. So he waves, Roland waves this guy down, our witness. And then he asks the witness to take him to a cab stand. And as they were going there, he said to the witness, I'm going to kill that, some kind of expletive, tomorrow. So, you know, who knows? But the detective at the time did not think this witness was, you know, I mean, I think he just thought, well, this could have been anybody.

I don't know. And the detective, and I think wrongly, thinks that the hotel staff would have seen Roland stumbling down the stairs and walking out the door with all of these injuries. I'm not sure that's the case either.

Yeah. Well, assuming that this injured male is related to Roland's case, it could be somebody that Roland attacked that night.

You're right.

Yeah. I think that's interesting. The problem in this case is it's Kansas City. And this is where in a larger area, city, you have lots of weird crime that happens every single night. So to try to, you know, just on the surface to try to say, oh, it's related to Roland's homicide. I don't think you can draw that conclusion, but it sounds like there's some follow-up that occurred that may have shown, oh yes, the strange man is related to Roland's case, whether it was Roland or it was somebody that had a vendetta against Roland. Yep.

We don't know. Now, here's something that I will tell you seems a little bit more credible. There is a wrestling promoter who thinks Roland approached him to do a wrestling match for him a few weeks earlier. So this is still in Kansas City. Maybe he was at the other hotel at the time. This guy has gone by the name Cecil Warner. So Roland, if this is Roland, was now going by Cecil Warner. And Cecil had claimed to the promoter that he had wrestled for another promoter at the time. But when the investigators follow up with that promoter, he says, no, I don't know who this guy is. I don't know Cecil. I've never had anybody wrestle with him. But that kind of, in a weird way, would make sense, right, with the cauliflower ear, if that's

the case. And I'll tell you, it's going to be more and more credible.

Well, I think, you know, this promoter coming forward, there must be just more than... maybe he's observing the scar. I mean, I'm looking to say, okay, why is he saying Cecil Warner is Roland? And Roland has that distinctive scar. He has the cauliflower ear. He has his own innate physical characteristics. There's this promoter saying, Cecil Warner is Roland.

I recognize that scar. I recognize that ear.

I believe so. So he said that this looks like the guy who approached me about doing a wrestling match and if i was interested in sponsoring him or whatever for a wrestling match okay so i mean i and i again i would guess and maybe i'm wrong but i would guess that if somebody approached the police and said you know yeah that i saw this guy that they would then show him the autopsy photo or you know the one with the chest up to to confirm but but i don't know.

Well let's say it is roland and that that sounds like something roland has done possibly on multiple occasions in order to make money.

Yep.

You know, he's got a skill set to know that he can at least, you know, be in a ring, you know, with somebody else and the audience is going to pay to see him.

Well, and the other thing, you know, you were talking about the warning against people with cauliflower ears. I mean, you know, I don't know if whoever did this to him got out of that room unscathed. I mean, I can't, I mean, maybe if he was bound, I'm not sure. this leads me back to wondering about what you had said before, something involving sexual nature here, because I don't know how Roland would be bound voluntarily unless it was something, maybe he was drugged, who knows?

Well, you know, and I, when I look at cases involving, uh, male victims and, uh, serial predators of male victims that obviously there's a sexual motivation, um, These predators typically are going to drug the men, or their victims, because you're dealing with a more robust victim than serial predators who go after women, typically. So oftentimes, disabling the victim using drugs is sort of the M.O. If you have somebody that is interacting with Roland, you have the two drinking glasses, is it possible... this person slipped something into Roland's drink in order to make him more compliant, to do whatever the offender wanted to do to Roland.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, well, let me tell you about who they're trying to track down. So, obviously, they're trying to figure out who Roland is, but they're also trying to find Dawn and this, they presume, a woman whose fingerprints have been left at the crime scene. Their best lead comes from the hotel elevator operator. Boy, don't kill people in a hotel. I mean, there's just witnesses all over the place. He says... that there was a woman who rode up in the elevator with him the night of the attack, the morning of the attack, actually 1.30 a.m.

to 3.30 a.m. So he took her up and then back down the elevator several times to the 10th floor. So he describes her, this is specific, 5'6 and weighing 135 pounds. She wore a black seal skin coat with a light fur collar. He took her to be a sex worker. I don't know if it's because of the coat or what. But it's early in the morning in 1935 to be knocking on a man's door. So she doesn't go to 1046. She goes to 1026. But no one answers. She tried 1024. No one answers. And then a little while later, she goes back down into the lobby and meets up with a man who looks to be a similar build as her. And the hotel operator transported them up to the ninth floor. But then, I don't know, hour and a half, two hours later, they

leave separately. The woman goes first. So no idea. No idea if this is related to Roland, if he was even dead yet, if he was asleep, and then this happens later. But this is another thing.

But you said this woman's fingerprints were found inside Roland's crime scene.

No, they have not matched those yet. And I don't know if they even do match those. I mean, I don't know if they even got usable prints off of the glass there they tried to pull, but this is just the hotel operator when they say, hey, we're looking for a shifty looking woman. He's like, oh, I got one of those. I think that's how it happened.

Not being able to place this woman inside room 1046. I mean, it does sound, you know, Again, you're dealing with Kansas City. I'm sure this hotel elevator operator is giving women in the middle of the night rides up and down all the time. You're right. With sex workers, you know, little one night stands that are occurring. So it's kind of really hard to say that, you know, you have to track it down as an investigative lead.

But most certainly it's hard to say that she had any involvement in Roland's death. Yeah.

So we've got a couple of witnesses who say that they had seen Roland at a liquor store on 12th Street around the corner before the attack. So that night they said he was with two women, but that they can't find these two women. Nobody knows who these two women are. But you do have several different people independently saying this looks like the guy. He was at the liquor store around the corner. So this case goes cold.

They do not figure out who Roland is. And weird stuff starts to happen. So this is kind of the second half in a way of this case. So there is a funeral on March 3rd, which is two months after he died. And the local newspaper posts that he's going to be buried in a pauper's grave because they don't know who he is the next day. Later that day, there's an anonymous phone call made to the funeral home.

And there's a guy and he says, I'm going to pay for Roland to be buried in the Memorial Park Cemetery. And when the director of the funeral home says, why and how do you know this guy? He says, well, Roland hadn't played the game fair and cheaters usually get what's coming to them. He's doing it for his sister, which I presume is the guy, the caller's sister. So we don't know anything about that except a couple of weeks after this funeral, there's a special delivery at the same funeral home. It's got $ 25 in cash, which is almost $ 600 today. And the day of the funeral, the home receives 13 American Beauty roses. So this would have been like $ 240. So they're getting anonymous big cash, you know, gifts.

And the attached card reads, Love Forever, Louise. So now we have more women.

You know, maybe I'm being influenced by, you know, the I guess the online sleuths that were saying that this phrase of, uh, I'm not hungry right now. It was a, like a mafia related type of thing. You know, it, it seems like there, there may be some things that are pointing in that direction going on with Roland.

Okay.

Go on. I lost for words. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm chewing on some things, but, Right now, if I say him, I'm going to sound like an idiot.

No, okay. Go ahead. I have more information. Okay, they cannot figure out who Louise is. They don't know who the caller is. You know, we don't know. So they think maybe he was sleeping with Louise and her brother found out and he killed Roland. I don't know. But they can't find these people. But the good news is it takes two years, but we do know who this guy is, Roland. And, of course, he is not Roland himself.

He is 19 years old and his name is Artemis Ogletree. And he is from Birmingham, Alabama, long way from home. His mother identifies him and her name is Ruby. So what happened was one of his mother's friends had seen a picture of the room 1046 victim in the American Weekly or Detective Stories, one of those magazines. And she said, that's your kid. And so you can see a real photo of him if you'd like. It's under the god-awful sketch that we just made fun of. But that is the real Roland. Actually, the sketch is not that far off.

I don't know.

And you can see his cauliflower ear a little bit here, too.

Yeah, I guess, yeah. Now that I'm seeing a better photo of Roland and his left ear, his left ear has got that look for sure. You know, in the other photo, I couldn't pick that out.

Okay. So this is the deal with Artemis. He was 17 when he left Birmingham, Alabama in 1934. So I think he just turned 19 when he was murdered. So he wanted to be a professional wrestler.

Okay.

So I think our promoter was spot on. But the scar on his head was not from an axe. Well, it wasn't from a knife or wrestling injury or anything like that. She said that he had a horrific grease burn when he was 11 months old. And that's where that scar came from.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so I'm still, I talked about how straight it looked in that photo at the upper edge of that. You know, I'm wondering maybe what was containing the grease pressed up against there, because I'm having a hard time just seeing grease, you know, let's say a blob of grease forming such a straight edge.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. That's what she says. So in April of 1934, so this is... eight months, I think, nine months before he dies, Artemis and his friend Joe Simpson hitchhike from Alabama to California. They said that along the way, you know, both of these guys would write to Ruby and give the mom their progress.

Artemis's letters were always handwritten and they were a lot on job prospects. He wanted to get work. He wanted to be a wrestler. He wanted to be a professional wrestler. So they head out for L.A., And she would send them money every once in a while. They kept in touch. According to Joe, the men arrived in L.A. in August.

But then Artemis said, I'm done with this. And so he headed out alone and decided to go to Kansas City. So Joe, I think, stayed in L.A. and Artemis went on to Kansas City on his own. So because of Ruby's letters, they find out who Dawn might be. So One of the letters says that Artemis and this guy named Donald Kelso checked in at the St. Regis Hotel in Kansas City. This is before Eugene K. Scott checks into the Mulebach Hotel, the fancy hotel, and then, of course, the President Hotel. So Artemis described Don in these letters to his mom as the best friend I have. And they plan to go into business together. What business? I have no idea. But this is when things get kind of weird. Okay. So Ruby does not know, obviously, that

this man who's dead in Kansas City is her son. And she doesn't know for two years. So she starts getting red flags in January after Roland dies because someone is sending her letters that are signed by him, but very clearly not from Artemis. So his mother says that he had always written, as I said, letters by hand.

He also used a lot of slang more than he had before. He kind of wrote formally, but now he's writing in slang and he's typing his letters. In one of them, he said he was heading to New York. And then he said, I'm going sailing to France. And she said it just didn't sound like him. And then seven months after he was murdered, she gets a long distance phone call from Memphis. The caller says that he was Artemis's friend. and Artemis had saved him from a band of thugs in Cairo, Egypt, what is happening? He's not asking for anything. I mean, he's just doing this.

It's odd. Yeah, the fact that this letter writer isn't seeking anything, you know, like, send me money, which mom has previously done for Artemis, right? So the letter writer could potentially have done that. There's no threats. It's trying to keep, in Mom's mind, Artemis is still alive. And it sounds like this may be to delay suspicion. The letter writer is the killer of Artemis. And now it's like, well, Artemis is still alive, so Mom, don't call the cops, because Artemis is fine. He's just in Cairo, Egypt, or he's in France, or something like that. That's what I think is going on, but it's odd. You know, and I think the sequence... kind of backing up just a little bit, is that Donald Kelso and Artemis, under his

natural name, his actual name, check into the St. Regis Hotel in Kansas City. And it's after that point that it appears that Artemis is now using pseudonyms as he's checking into hotels, as if he's trying to obscure his identity and potentially his whereabouts. So, It's like, well, what happened at the St. Regis Hotel for Artemis to now start bouncing around using fake names? So that seems like a key point that the investigators need to drill down on.

Yep, I agree. So Ruby is freaking out, as any mom would. She starts her own investigation. I love this woman. So in November of 1935, so this is unfortunately, she doesn't know, 10 months after her son died. She checks in with the State Department to see if her son had gotten a passport. She contacts the American Consulate in Cairo.

finds out nothing. She files a report with the FBI. She keeps looking for him until 1936 when she sees his photo in the crime magazine and confirms that he had been killed. So Ruby thinks it's Joe. So this was the guy he hitchhiked across the country to L.A. And then it sounds like he left Joe in L.A.

and then he took off to Kansas City. So that's who she thinks it is. She meets with him in 1939. So this is almost five years after Artemis dies. His voice matches the voice of the caller from Memphis. I would have thought she would have known Joe if he's writing her actively when she confronts Joe about the long distance call. His face goes pale, and he says that Artemis had entrusted him with a typed letter. He says, I'm going to bring it to you, but he never does.

And the police blow this off.

I want to address voice recognition over a phone line. I've got some experience having to dig into this just because of Golden State Killer case. And what ends up happening, the phone systems actually clip. the lower and higher frequencies of the human voice. And so when you talk to somebody over a landline, I can't speak to cellular, but over the old landlines, you are not hearing the other person's natural voice because it has literally been clipped. Now, it sounds like that person to you, but when it gets down to it, is there's so much of the natural range of that other person's voice that is not delivered over these old phone lines that you can be mistaken and often are. So people just don't recognize that

that's what's going on in these old phone systems.

Well, she is convinced, the police are not. The police have no suspects, though.

Nothing.

So in the late 1930s and the 40s, they question and fingerprint a lot of people But they're grasping at straws. Nobody matches.

Well, hold on. Nobody matches what?

The fingerprints that they found.

Okay. So they're actively trying to identify the latent prints that were recovered out of the crime scene. Got it.

Yep.

Okay. Yep.

So, okay, we've got a little bit of a switch up. You know, you and I talked a little bit about mafia, maybe. The police in the 1940s start going down the sexual deviancy road.

Okay.

So... They focus on a guy named Thomas Wilbur Barlow. He had been convicted of what they said were crimes against nature. We know what that means. In Little Blue, Missouri. The signature he provided in police custody reminded arresting officers of Donald Kelso's signature in the St. Regis Hotel Registry.

But they questioned him for 10 hours and that's it. So it sounds like his, you know, it's the proximity is Missouri. And the signature and the fact that he's gay and had been convicted of what they called sexual deviancy, crimes against nature.

But then they still at this point have not identified Donald Kelso.

No, they have never identified Donald Kelso. They think this is an alias for Thomas Barlow. There is zero evidence that these guys knew each other at all. No evidence whatsoever.

Yeah.

There is a guy named Joseph Ogden, still kind of on the same road. He's a convicted murderer in New York. He became a suspect because he had brutally shot, dismembered, and shipped the nude body of a man named Oliver George Senecal to Memphis in 1938. So this is three years after Artemis dies. So here's the thing that's interesting about this guy, Joseph Ogden. So, you know, I mean, it says he's gay. I don't know, but they're calling this dismemberment. This was a sexually motivated crime. But Joseph is known, at least the police say, to use the alias Donald Kelso. But then the FBI looks at his handwriting and says this doesn't even remotely match Donald Kelso's signature at the St. Regis Hotel Registry. And there's no

connection between these two that they can find. He's as good as anybody as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I don't know.

So, okay. Yeah, but can they place Ogden in Kansas City at the time of Artemis' homicide?

Not conclusively. I think Ogden has been kind of all over the place, and so they couldn't pin him down. Okay. But I think this falls apart really quickly. Sounds good to me, but it falls apart.

The victimology... Going back to starting at St. Regis Hotel, Artemis has checked in with a Donald Kelso. Are they staying in the same room?

So it's supposed to be. I mean, they're registering with the same room as far as I know.

And this is a room with two twin beds or a queen bed?

Well, I don't know that, Paul. That I don't know.

But after that, Artemis is now... using pseudonyms. Yet, leaves a note, presumably under the pseudonym Roland, leaves a note for Donald, come in, wait for me, I'll be back in 15 minutes. It's not like he's running from Donald or Don. There's something else. There is something else that is causing Artemis to now hop around to different hotels, and not cheap hotels, and change his name each time.

So how's he getting the money? Why is he changing his name? There is a clue in there somewhere.

You know, this turns into just a huge mystery, Paul. It's officially unsolved.

You're kidding me.

No, I'm not. Look at the time. You think this would be like a three-parter if we're solved. You know, in 2003, 65 years later, there's an anonymous caller who phones the Kansas City Public Librarian. I have no idea why. They say, listen, I was sorting through some personal items of a person I know who died in the box.

There's something, there's newspaper articles, but there also is something, they say, tying the person who just died to Artemis's murder. but the person never calls back, never provides any information. And that was that. And that is it. That is it. Dead, dead road at this point. That's why it is the mystery of room 1046.

Well, part of the complexity of the case is the length of time it took to actually identify the victim. Right. You know, so this, you know, oftentimes if you can't identify the victim, you're not going to solve the case. And many times, once you identify the victim, the case gets solved rapidly. Uh, The length of time to identify Artemis probably inhibited some of the investigative avenues that Kansas City could have taken at the time. I'm looking at this as a cold case investigator, and I recognize the 1935 case, the evidence. There's no evidence left in this case, but maybe there is. And the things that I would be going after are, number one, DNA off of the binding material, the ligature material, because I'm confident the offender

probably applied those to Artemis, and then revisiting those latents using databases. I'd need to consult with some fingerprint experts and the database experts in terms of, you know, do we still have... 10-print cards of individuals uploaded into modern computer systems from this era? Chances are, no. But it's worth at least exploring that as a possibility. But with the DNA technology today, if they still have that binding or that ligature, then that's probably going to be their best bet in terms of identifying who killed Artemis.

Well, this is an enduring mystery, and people still talk about it. And, you know, we've done some not just unsolved cases, but the who is it per, you know, case. And, you know, we've had several on the beach. And so these are always frustrating, I think. The part of this that's really frustrating for me, again, is I go back to the fact that he might not have had to have died. Because four hours earlier, somebody was at the door and he, I believe it was him, said, come in, you know, turn on the lights. I think, you know, if they had found him sooner, I mean, coulda, woulda, shoulda, he could have been saved. That part is sad to me.

I don't know.

He was 19, Paul. I mean, I don't know what this guy got into, what he was in, whether it was personal sexual or the mob. I don't know. But it makes me sad that he couldn't be saved.

Yeah, you know, and my guess is, yeah, when he got out to L.A. and, you know, probably trying to start a professional wrestling career, socializing... womanizing or whatever you know he's into maybe not right maybe not you know but it's him and don kelso who's never been identified that end up going to kansas city at the saint regis hotel and then after that is when you start seeing some strange behaviors happening yeah so it's very possible that artemis got involved in some seedy stuff out in la right you know and then that followed him out to kansas city Or whatever world he was kind of getting familiar and comfortable with in L.A., he started to explore that in Kansas City. And then somebody, you know,

this is not a suicide, right? As I was kind of going, well, is it? You know, but no, it's not a suicide. But somebody ended up coming into Artemis's room and using multiple modalities to inflict injuries, killing him. And it is significant that Artemis is naked. It is significant that there's two drinking glasses. You know, there's some weird stuff like the dilute sulfuric acid. Something's going on here.

And it's starting in L.A. with Don Kelso. Don Kelso flows out to St. Regis in Kansas City with Artemis. And then Artemis is bouncing around using pseudonyms. And then Don seems to catch up with him. Something's up.

And someone takes all of his belongings, his clothes, you know, everything. And he's a young guy. He's 19. He either voluntarily was bound or something happened. Who knows? But this has been a mystery. And it makes me sad just because at 19, you know, whatever he did to get in this, it just makes me sad. Sure. You know, this is an interesting locked door mystery. You learned about that a little bit. You see why it's locked door. I mean, what happened? I wish it would be solved. I'm not optimistic about it, but it's good to bring these kinds of stories out. This is the kind of story, you know, that deserves some attention here.

It's a fascinating case. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.

You're welcome, Paul Holes. Okay.

All right, Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Next week, another case.

All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Kate.

This has been an Exactly Right production.

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

Research by Allison Trouble and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Talladay.

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogle.

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at BuriedBonesPod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind, is available now.

And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.

Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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