Everyday life & afterlife in ancient Egypt (with Renée Dreyfus)

0:00:00.320,0:00:05.760 You have everyday life. We are learning so much more 0:00:05.760,0:00:11.600 about how people lived who were not royalty. That’s Renée Dreyfus, the curator in charge of 0:00:11.600,0:00:14.480 ancient art at the de Young and the Legion of Honor. 0:00:14.480,0:00:19.440 Or, as she’s known on social media… Hey, chat. It's your girl Renée, 0:00:19.440,0:00:24.320 Queen Baddie of ancient art. Renée oversaw a new exhibit at the de Young 0:00:24.320,0:00:28.320 Museum called Treasures of the Pharaohs. You know, I think a lot of people 0:00:28.320,0:00:35.600 are attracted to ancient Egyptian art and culture because they were the people who, 0:00:35.600,0:00:41.520 it seems, found a way to live forever. If you learned about ancient Egypt in school, 0:00:41.520,0:00:44.880 you probably talked a lot about two things: The kings, 0:00:44.880,0:00:48.960 and death: Embalming, mummies, tombs, the Book of the Dead, 0:00:48.960,0:00:53.360 weighing your heart against a feather. If everything was done correctly, 0:00:53.360,0:00:58.640 if they were able to prove that they had led a decent life, 0:00:58.640,0:01:04.000 they could find their way to immortality. Treasures of the Pharaohs talks about 0:01:04.000,0:01:06.960 all of that, of course. But it juxtaposes the golden 0:01:06.960,0:01:12.080 jewelry and sarcophagi with everyday items, including some really cool finds from the 0:01:12.080,0:01:16.000 recently excavated Golden City. These were the ordinary people. 0:01:16.000,0:01:19.680 They were working for the pharaoh and they had their jobs. 0:01:19.680,0:01:25.280 They were creating the jewelry. They had bakeries, they had kitchens, 0:01:25.280,0:01:34.560 but they also had the homes of the people who lived there. 0:01:34.560,0:01:38.080 This is Call ‘Em Like Museum, a podcast about how museums work, 0:01:38.080,0:01:40.640 and why we love them. I’m Eric Johnson. 0:01:40.640,0:01:45.360 Today on the podcast: What was it like to be one of the normies surrounding the pharaohs? 0:01:45.360,0:01:50.960 Can a topic as popular and intensely studied as Ancient Egypt still surprise us? 0:01:50.960,0:01:55.360 And why is Renée’s favorite object in the exhibition this chair? 0:01:55.360,0:01:59.200 She’ll tell us about all of that and more, right after this. 0:01:59.200,0:02:03.840 This episode is sponsored by Transistor.fm. If you are starting a podcast, 0:02:03.840,0:02:07.840 then you should use Transistor. Upload your audio or video and they'll 0:02:07.840,0:02:12.480 publish your episodes to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pocket Casts, 0:02:12.480,0:02:17.840 Overcast, and more. Go to Transistor.fm for a 14-day free trial. 0:02:17.840,0:02:21.280 On this podcast, we believe that everyone's experience with 0:02:21.280,0:02:24.720 museums is deeply personal, and that's why we want 0:02:24.720,0:02:28.640 to hear your museum stories. If you've got one, and I bet you do, 0:02:28.640,0:02:34.480 please submit it at our website, likemuseum.com. Just go to the website, likemuseum.com, 0:02:34.480,0:02:38.160 and click "submit a museum story" at the top of the page. 0:02:38.160,0:02:43.360 It might just make it into a future episode. Thanks. 0:02:43.360,0:02:47.200 Your formal title at Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco is the George 0:02:47.200,0:02:50.640 and Judy Markus Distinguished Curator in Charge of Ancient Art. 0:02:50.640,0:02:52.240 Correct. But on social media, 0:02:52.240,0:02:55.840 you have a different title, I believe. Oh, you've got Queen Baddie in the house! 0:02:55.840,0:02:57.190 That's right. Oh yes, you're right. 0:02:57.190,0:03:01.920 We've got the Queen Baddie of Ancient Art. I thought I was in disguise, but I guess not. 0:03:01.920,0:03:05.840 “The Romans were just the side piece of the Etruscans, 0:03:05.840,0:03:12.400 absolutely mogging the Mediterranean — mogging — who were mogging the Mediterranean 0:03:12.400,0:03:15.120 for 1,000 years.” Well, your highness, 0:03:15.120,0:03:18.640 thank you for being here. Yes. So Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco, 0:03:18.640,0:03:21.520 for folks who don't know, there's two museums. There's the de Young Museum 0:03:21.520,0:03:25.760 and the Legion of Honor. You are celebrating a milestone anniversary, 0:03:25.760,0:03:28.560 if I'm not mistaken, this year. How long have you worked there? 0:03:28.560,0:03:36.960 It's 50 years, 5-0. And just this past year we celebrated the 0:03:36.960,0:03:42.000 100th birthday of the Legion of Honor Museum, which is where my ancient 0:03:42.000,0:03:48.080 art collection is housed. And I thought, oh, 100 years, big deal. 0:03:48.080,0:03:53.840 I've been there half of that time. (laugh) When you look at the timescale, 0:03:53.840,0:03:56.400 it doesn't feel like so much. No, it didn't seem so much. 0:03:56.400,0:04:00.160 Well, I do want to spend most of our time talking about Treasures of the Pharaohs, 0:04:00.160,0:04:04.240 which is the new exhibition at the de Young. But first I want to talk about 0:04:04.240,0:04:07.760 your personal history and relationship with museums. 0:04:07.760,0:04:10.160 Nice. A question that I ask everyone to start off 0:04:10.160,0:04:18.320 is what does the word "museum" mean to you? Years ago, I had a friendship with Vincent Price. 0:04:18.320,0:04:20.720 You may remember him. Oh, sure. 0:04:20.720,0:04:25.680 He wasn't as scary as you might think, and so we became good friends. 0:04:25.680,0:04:30.080 I asked him that same question, "What is a museum to you?" 0:04:30.080,0:04:36.960 And he said, "It's a place where you go to be surprised." And I love that. 0:04:36.960,0:04:45.120 I've never forgotten that he said that. It's educational, it's entertaining, 0:04:45.120,0:04:47.280 but also surprising. 0:04:47.280,0:04:54.400 You go in to a museum and even if you've been at that museum before many times, 0:04:54.400,0:04:59.040 there's always something that's going to catch your attention 0:04:59.040,0:05:05.680 that will be exciting and interesting and maybe reach a different 0:05:05.680,0:05:12.240 level of understanding, something that excites you, makes you happy, 0:05:12.240,0:05:17.120 or makes you think of the world in a different way. 0:05:17.120,0:05:23.360 I think that's what he meant when he said be prepared to be surprised. 0:05:23.360,0:05:26.960 It changes you on a molecular level. It changes you as a person. 0:05:26.960,0:05:32.240 That's exactly right. It changes you, and certainly for the better. 0:05:32.240,0:05:36.160 Yes, I hope so. And what's your first memory of going to a museum? 0:05:36.160,0:05:41.280 Oh, I love this. I grew up in New York City 0:05:41.280,0:05:46.640 and my first memory of a museum was the Brooklyn Museum. 0:05:46.640,0:05:53.200 My parents took me there. The Brooklyn Museum has an incredible 0:05:53.200,0:06:02.480 collection of ancient art — Near Eastern, Egyptian, classical — and those were the 0:06:02.480,0:06:09.200 areas they couldn't pull me away from. Of course, growing up and then able to 0:06:09.200,0:06:13.040 go to museums on my own, there was always the Met. 0:06:13.040,0:06:17.360 I was really lucky. And then I went to school in Boston, 0:06:17.360,0:06:21.680 which had a world-class museum. I've been lucky with 0:06:22.480,0:06:30.880 where I've lived and the places that ... They became like second homes for me now. 0:06:30.880,0:06:36.240 Since I love museums so much, it was always my dream to work in a museum. 0:06:37.760,0:06:45.520 I feel so lucky to have been able to work at the Fine Arts Museums for the past 50 years. 0:06:45.520,0:06:50.800 It's exactly what I always wanted to do, which is why I'm still here and working. 0:06:50.800,0:06:53.520 I am so glad that you're here. I'm so glad you've been 0:06:53.520,0:06:57.760 doing this for all these years. You made such a special impression on San 0:06:57.760,0:07:02.160 Francisco through the work that you've done. So with that, let's transition. Let's talk about 0:07:02.160,0:07:04.080 Treasures of the Pharaohs. Cool. 0:07:04.080,0:07:08.720 Usually when I talk to people on this podcast, one of the questions I save for the end of the 0:07:08.720,0:07:11.920 conversation is what do people get wrong about your museum? 0:07:11.920,0:07:16.080 But I think with this exhibition, a great place to start is ancient Egypt 0:07:16.080,0:07:19.760 is so fascinating to so many people. What do people get wrong about it? 0:07:20.320,0:07:28.960 Oh, I think a lot of people are attracted to ancient Egyptian art and culture 0:07:28.960,0:07:38.080 because they were the people who, it seems, really found a way to live forever. 0:07:38.080,0:07:42.960 I mean, it was such a basic principle of their belief system 0:07:42.960,0:07:46.080 that if everything was done correctly, 0:07:46.080,0:07:51.840 if they were able to prove that they had led a decent life, 0:07:52.720,0:08:02.480 that they could find their way to immortality. It's something that a lot of cultures have, 0:08:02.480,0:08:05.840 but the Egyptians, they had it as a 0:08:05.840,0:08:12.160 basic principle throughout their lives that they were going to be able to live 0:08:12.160,0:08:16.320 forever in a blessed land where they would be 0:08:16.320,0:08:24.320 happy and communicate with gods. What a shame, they didn't live forever, 0:08:24.320,0:08:32.720 although they had a saying that to speak one's name is to make them live again. 0:08:32.720,0:08:38.480 And so, so many times when I've done an Egyptian show 0:08:38.480,0:08:44.960 and it's about the queen who would be king — Hatshepsut — or Ramses or King Tutankhamun, 0:08:46.400,0:08:52.880 you're speaking their name. And in the Egyptian belief system, 0:08:52.880,0:08:57.760 speaking the name is to make them live again. I love that. 0:08:57.760,0:09:01.920 A couple reactions when I've been to the Treasures of the Pharaohs exhibition. 0:09:01.920,0:09:05.680 I've been there twice so far. When I was there the second time, 0:09:05.680,0:09:09.680 I was looking at the wall where it had the timeline of the different 0:09:09.680,0:09:14.480 periods of ancient Egyptian history, and it really struck me how 0:09:14.480,0:09:20.480 big of a topic ancient Egypt is. We're talking about 3,000 years of history. 0:09:20.480,0:09:24.800 How do you, working in ancient art, how do you communicate the scale of that time? 0:09:24.800,0:09:27.200 Because it's not just ... When I say ancient Egypt, 0:09:27.200,0:09:30.880 I'm really referring to so many people for so much time. 0:09:30.880,0:09:38.480 I installed an exhibition one time. It was in 2002 and it was at the Legion of Honor, 0:09:38.480,0:09:46.000 and it was Egyptian art from pre-dynastic, from the earliest dynastic period all 0:09:46.000,0:09:52.400 the way through into Roman times. We're talking 3,000 years of history, 0:09:52.400,0:10:00.480 but also 3,000 years of art history. And that exhibition was laid out chronologically 0:10:00.480,0:10:08.960 so that you're walking through time, you could see similarities in the Egyptian style 0:10:08.960,0:10:15.200 and the way they presented their beliefs and their everyday life. 0:10:15.200,0:10:23.040 That was a very interesting way to present the art because you could see similarities. 0:10:23.040,0:10:30.560 Sometimes they went back in time because that was a wonderful period of time 0:10:30.560,0:10:34.480 when Egypt was strong and they want to go back to that period. 0:10:34.480,0:10:40.080 So they do archaicizing. They're going back in time to 0:10:40.080,0:10:44.960 present the art the way it was at an earlier period because that's the 0:10:44.960,0:10:52.960 way they like to think of themselves, identifying with a golden age perhaps. 0:10:52.960,0:10:59.440 This exhibition instead presents a different narrative. 0:10:59.440,0:11:03.920 The chronology is not as important, although we do have things from the first 0:11:03.920,0:11:14.000 dynasty through the 3,000 years of history. But the concept that we start with is 0:11:14.000,0:11:20.960 kind of the top of the pyramid, which is divine kingship, the most 0:11:20.960,0:11:28.240 important person in Egypt throughout time. And this goes back to the earliest history 0:11:28.240,0:11:33.600 that we have about ancient Egypt, that the king was the ruler, 0:11:33.600,0:11:38.320 but he was also a god. One of Renée’s favorite objects in the exhibition 0:11:38.320,0:11:44.560 is this schist sculpture of the king Menkaure, who had the smallest pyramid at Giza. 0:11:44.560,0:11:46.800 Here’s what she said when we looked at it in person. 0:11:46.800,0:11:51.760 “And he's shown striding forward. He's in the middle, and it's made out 0:11:51.760,0:11:55.920 of this gorgeous black schist, which is very hard to carve. 0:11:55.920,0:12:02.480 But he's wearing the crown of Upper Egypt, and he wears the royal kilt. 0:12:02.480,0:12:10.400 And he's surrounded on both sides by figures that represent deities. 0:12:10.400,0:12:17.120 On his right, our left, is the goddess Hathor, and you know that because of her cow's 0:12:17.120,0:12:24.240 horns and the sun disk that she wears. And on his left side — of lesser importance, 0:12:24.240,0:12:32.000 because you see he's smaller in size — is the personification of the region of Thebes, 0:12:32.000,0:12:40.240 which is where Menkaure's capital city is. It tells you in one glance that the 0:12:40.240,0:12:45.520 pharaoh is not only a ruler, but he is a divine ruler, 0:12:45.520,0:12:51.520 and he is at home with the gods, and they accept him as one of their own.” 0:12:51.520,0:12:59.280 And then to understand the social history of the ancient Egyptians, 0:12:59.280,0:13:05.440 we then spread it out and we talk about those people who were close to the king, 0:13:05.440,0:13:13.840 those people who helped him uphold the sense of he was in charge of everything: 0:13:13.840,0:13:19.600 their religious beliefs, their daily life, what their thoughts are about 0:13:19.600,0:13:25.280 death and the afterlife. So we go through the social 0:13:25.280,0:13:30.560 hierarchy in this exhibition, and because of that, 0:13:30.560,0:13:37.440 the chronological history isn't as critical. And as you work farther down the pyramid, 0:13:37.440,0:13:40.640 to use your phrasing there, one of the rooms of this 0:13:40.640,0:13:45.440 exhibition is about the Golden City. Could you talk about what that room means to you 0:13:45.440,0:13:51.760 and why you wanted to juxtapose the objects from the Golden City with the pharaohs? 0:13:51.760,0:13:56.880 It's part of the section in the people surrounding the king. 0:13:56.880,0:14:03.840 And in fact, the Golden City is a brand new discovery. 0:14:03.840,0:14:13.680 It was found by Zahi Hawass, the eminent Egyptologist from Egypt, and his team. 0:14:13.680,0:14:20.320 They were looking for the mortuary temple of King Tut, 0:14:20.320,0:14:24.320 and they had a clue where to find it and they started digging. 0:14:24.320,0:14:33.600 And instead they found the walls of a city that is so well preserved that it looks like people 0:14:33.600,0:14:38.560 left it maybe yesterday. It's an extraordinary city. 0:14:38.560,0:14:46.480 And as they're excavating, now, this extraordinary discovery — I mean, 0:14:46.480,0:14:52.880 it's the most significant discoveries maybe since King Tut's tomb in the 1920s. 0:14:52.880,0:14:58.880 It really is a city that is comprised of a residential area, 0:14:58.880,0:15:08.640 an administrative area, and workshops. So the workshops are the people who 0:15:08.640,0:15:17.760 prepared everything that the king needed. This was a king whose name was Amenhotep III. 0:15:17.760,0:15:26.960 He lived during the golden age of Egypt. He was a new-kingdom pharaoh of the 18th dynasty. 0:15:26.960,0:15:35.600 What is significant about it is that Amenhotep III and his wife, 0:15:35.600,0:15:43.348 Queen Tiye, had a son whose name was Amenhotep IV, not surprisingly. 0:15:43.348,0:15:46.560 Makes sense. But he changed his name to Akhenaten, 0:15:46.560,0:15:53.680 and he's the pharaoh who said there's only one god and not a plethora of gods, 0:15:53.680,0:15:58.720 the many, many gods that the Egyptians worshiped. 0:15:58.720,0:16:05.120 One wonders, you have Akhenaten and his wife Nefertiti, 0:16:05.120,0:16:14.720 and after Amenhotep III died, they moved the capital city from near 0:16:14.720,0:16:22.000 where this new Golden City was discovered in Luxor. 0:16:22.000,0:16:26.400 They move it to Amarna. And when they moved to Amarna, 0:16:26.400,0:16:31.520 people pick up and they follow him. These are all his workers. 0:16:31.520,0:16:36.080 They leave a lot of things behind. And people always ask me, 0:16:36.080,0:16:43.440 "You're showing things that were important to the upper classes. 0:16:43.440,0:16:47.200 What about daily life? What about the ordinary people?" 0:16:47.200,0:16:50.000 These were the ordinary people. They were working for the 0:16:50.000,0:16:57.360 pharaoh and they had their jobs. They were creating the jewelry, which by the way, 0:16:57.360,0:17:03.600 Zahi Hawass thinks is the jewelry that was made there is was what was 0:17:03.600,0:17:06.720 found in King Tut's tomb. Wow. 0:17:06.720,0:17:15.520 But also they had bakeries, they had kitchens, they had the administrative sections, 0:17:15.520,0:17:19.920 but they also had the homes of the people who lived there. 0:17:19.920,0:17:25.760 In the exhibition, you'll see a baby's rattle. I mean, there were children's toys. 0:17:25.760,0:17:31.760 There was a manufacturing area where they were creating children's toys. 0:17:31.760,0:17:39.520 They created the amulets that people were using and the king was using. 0:17:39.520,0:17:48.800 You have everyday life, you have pots that were made to hold food and drink. 0:17:49.680,0:17:56.480 We are learning so much more about how people lived who were not royalty. 0:17:56.480,0:18:03.520 But at the same time, we're learning that it wasn't just Akhenaten who said 0:18:03.520,0:18:10.000 that there was only one god and it was the Aten, the disc of the sun. 0:18:10.000,0:18:18.240 We're seeing that it was already in place during the time of Amenhotep III and his wife Queen Tiye. 0:18:18.240,0:18:27.200 So it's a significant discovery in so many ways, and it's continuing to give because 0:18:27.200,0:18:32.400 it's still being excavated now. And this is the first time that any 0:18:32.400,0:18:38.000 of these objects have been out of Egypt and probably the first time that 0:18:38.000,0:18:43.040 they've actually been on view. I'm very excited about this being 0:18:43.040,0:18:46.000 in the exhibition. As you should be. 0:18:46.000,0:18:50.560 That's a perfect segue to my next question, which is that most of the objects here — correct 0:18:50.560,0:18:52.080 me if I'm wrong — came from the Cairo 0:18:52.080,0:18:55.040 Egyptian Museum and there's others that came from the Luxor Museum, 0:18:55.040,0:18:59.120 the ones that from this new Golden City. Could you talk about your relationship 0:18:59.120,0:19:03.760 with these other museums? How do you convince them to trust 0:19:03.760,0:19:06.800 you with their country's history and their museum collection? 0:19:06.800,0:19:09.840 I mean, these are so important to these Egyptian museums. 0:19:09.840,0:19:13.680 Let me tell you first how I found out about this exhibition. 0:19:13.680,0:19:19.360 Please. I'm always on the lookout for some exhibition 0:19:19.360,0:19:25.040 that might have a phenomenal object list. And I had a phone call 0:19:25.040,0:19:30.720 with Zahi Hawass and he said, "Have I got an exhibition for you." 0:19:30.720,0:19:36.880 I mean, this is somebody I've known since, I don't know, he was a student. 0:19:36.880,0:19:40.960 And I said, "Well, I'd like to see the object list." 0:19:40.960,0:19:44.560 And they sent the object list and all of a sudden I'm looking at 0:19:44.560,0:19:51.520 all of the stars from the Egyptian Museum in Cairo in Tahrir Square. 0:19:51.520,0:20:00.640 And then I'm seeing the Golden City objects, and then I'm seeing the tomb groups from two 0:20:00.640,0:20:06.720 specific tombs that are phenomenal, and we can talk about those. 0:20:06.720,0:20:17.760 And then to find out that Tareq Al Awadhi — he was a former director of the Cairo 0:20:17.760,0:20:24.880 Museum — that he has chosen the objects. So you have the actual director 0:20:24.880,0:20:29.600 who is a well-trained Egyptologist and archeologist, 0:20:29.600,0:20:36.480 he is the person who decided on the themes that I mentioned earlier. 0:20:36.480,0:20:41.040 And I looked at it and I said, "This is a perfect way to be 0:20:41.040,0:20:49.440 able to present life in ancient Egypt, looking at the social hierarchy, but then 0:20:49.440,0:20:54.960 looking to see these splendid objects. Some of them are the real iconic 0:20:54.960,0:21:00.880 works that people go to Egypt to see. These are really splendid works of art. 0:21:00.880,0:21:08.400 The exhibition was first on view in Rome, and it was organized by a company 0:21:08.400,0:21:14.640 in Rome that does exhibitions. They hadn't thought of bringing it to America, 0:21:14.640,0:21:20.160 but when we had the chance to go and look at the exhibition in Rome, 0:21:20.160,0:21:27.280 immediately we knew we needed to sign up for it. So we are the first institution, the first museum, 0:21:27.280,0:21:35.920 to have these objects in America. After we close, it goes to the Kimball Museum. 0:21:35.920,0:21:40.400 Those are the two museums that are in the United States, 0:21:40.400,0:21:46.320 and then it goes traveling elsewhere. So I just think we're so lucky to 0:21:46.320,0:21:50.160 have these objects. And it's never easy to 0:21:51.760,0:22:00.320 negotiate with the Egyptian government, but in the end, they were so thrilled 0:22:00.320,0:22:05.360 with our installation. Zahi Hawass said to them, 0:22:05.360,0:22:13.120 "It's a hundred times better than Rome." And of course, I knew it would be. (laugh) 0:22:13.120,0:22:16.240 I like the self-confidence there. You know what you're doing by now. 0:22:16.240,0:22:21.840 Yeah, you're talking to Queen Baddie, so yeah. Hey, if you're enjoying the episode, 0:22:21.840,0:22:25.920 then make sure to follow the podcast in whatever app you're using right now. 0:22:25.920,0:22:29.760 It's free, and it makes sure that new episodes will show up automatically. 0:22:29.760,0:22:33.440 If you're on YouTube, then hit subscribe there too. Thank you so much. 0:22:33.440,0:22:37.040 If you're a fan of this show, then you probably love museums. 0:22:37.040,0:22:40.720 And if you love museums, then you know that the best shop in the world 0:22:40.720,0:22:43.840 is the museum gift shop. So we put together something 0:22:43.840,0:22:48.320 just for you: the gift shop giveaway. To enter, sign up for our free newsletter 0:22:48.320,0:22:52.640 at likemuseum.com. That's likemuseum.com. 0:22:52.640,0:22:55.680 Thanks for listening and thanks for being part of this community. 0:22:55.680,0:22:59.280 Can you think about your favorite object? I know it's impossible to pick just one, 0:22:59.280,0:23:02.080 but think about a favorite object in the exhibition. 0:23:02.080,0:23:05.520 If you imagine that we're walking towards it, what do we see? 0:23:05.520,0:23:08.160 What do you notice about it? How does it make you feel? 0:23:08.160,0:23:12.400 Okay. We're going into a room 0:23:12.400,0:23:22.320 that is a gallery full of objects that come from the tomb of the 0:23:22.320,0:23:29.600 in-laws of Amenhotep III. Their names are Yuya and Thuya. 0:23:29.600,0:23:34.080 There's a big gold coffin of Thuya in the middle of that gallery, 0:23:34.080,0:23:43.520 and it takes you like a magnet to go and see it. It's absolutely extraordinary with its inlays and 0:23:43.520,0:23:49.680 how alive the face looks. But on your way there, 0:23:49.680,0:23:56.800 you pass a piece of furniture and it's made out of wood and 0:23:56.800,0:24:03.200 it has gold and silver inlay. In the backrest of the chair, 0:24:03.200,0:24:09.840 you see the owner of it. It's a throne that belonged to their grandchild, 0:24:09.840,0:24:17.280 Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye's daughter. Sitamun is her name. 0:24:17.280,0:24:22.960 And you see her two times on the backrest, sitting in a chair just like this one. 0:24:22.960,0:24:30.880 She was a princess. This was her throne. It's an absolutely beautiful example. It is so ... 0:24:30.880,0:24:35.280 I mean, the condition, it's intact and it's gorgeous. 0:24:36.160,0:24:40.560 It's a piece of furniture that I've known for a really long period of time, 0:24:40.560,0:24:46.640 and here it is in that gallery. And what makes it special, 0:24:46.640,0:24:52.720 and I'm sure I'm reading into it a little bit but not too much, 0:24:52.720,0:25:02.480 is her grandparents are being laid to rest and they are buried in the Valley of the Kings, 0:25:02.480,0:25:06.640 even though they're not royalty. Remember, it's their daughter, 0:25:06.640,0:25:10.400 Tiye, who is royalty, and I can just hear her saying to her husband, 0:25:10.400,0:25:14.880 Amenhotep III, "They're my parents and I want them buried as 0:25:14.880,0:25:23.440 if they were royalty," and in fact they were. Here's their granddaughter believing 0:25:23.440,0:25:32.800 that they're going to have a blessed afterlife, wanting them to remember her throughout eternity, 0:25:32.800,0:25:36.080 knowing that this was an object that was precious to her. 0:25:36.080,0:25:43.360 She used it. There's signs of wear. It makes me think that she loved her grandparents 0:25:43.360,0:25:49.840 and wanted them to remember her. It's a mesmerizing object, 0:25:49.840,0:25:58.880 especially when you consider why would it have been found in the tomb of Tuya and Yuya? 0:25:58.880,0:26:05.280 They had lots of precious objects in their tomb, but this is one that was put there by their 0:26:05.280,0:26:07.200 granddaughter. I assume for 0:26:07.200,0:26:11.920 any grandparent visiting the exhibition — both the grandparents and for the mother-in-laws 0:26:11.920,0:26:15.440 that are visiting the exhibition — take notes in these rooms. 0:26:15.440,0:26:24.720 And anybody who loved their grandparents. Many of us had grandparents who were significant 0:26:24.720,0:26:27.120 in our lives. Yes. 0:26:27.120,0:26:32.480 So anyhow, I love that piece, but every gallery has something 0:26:32.480,0:26:38.480 that is significant and beautiful, and I could go on and on about, I'm afraid. 0:26:38.480,0:26:42.640 What's a small detail in the exhibition that most people would miss, 0:26:42.640,0:26:51.920 but which you absolutely love? There's a stone carving of the mayor 0:26:51.920,0:27:02.880 of Thebes during the time of Amenhotep II. So Amenhotep II, he ruled from Thebes, 0:27:02.880,0:27:09.920 and the mayor of Thebes was a man named Sennefer. There is a statue of Sennefer 0:27:09.920,0:27:19.840 and his wife and their child, a little diminutive figure standing between them, 0:27:19.840,0:27:28.400 but they have their arms around each other. Now, there are statues that show the husbands 0:27:28.400,0:27:35.040 and wives with their arms around each other, but the sculptor — you have to walk around 0:27:35.040,0:27:40.640 to the back of the sculpture — and the sculptor has carved 0:27:40.640,0:27:48.800 the upper part of the throne they're sitting at so that you could see their hands around each 0:27:48.800,0:27:51.360 other's shoulders. Yes. 0:27:51.360,0:28:00.400 A sign of love and also respect because there are, what, eight rows of Egyptian 0:28:00.400,0:28:05.840 hieroglyphs on the back. On the side of Sennefer 0:28:05.840,0:28:15.040 are his four lines of Egyptian hieroglyphs. On his wife's side, there are the hieroglyphs, 0:28:15.040,0:28:19.680 and she had a significant role as well in the entourage, 0:28:19.680,0:28:25.680 in the king's ... the people who surrounded the king. 0:28:25.680,0:28:32.080 It's all about her. It's important to think that 0:28:32.080,0:28:39.760 there are women in ancient Egypt who had the respect and the 0:28:39.760,0:28:47.360 appreciation that they were shown, in this case, equivalent in some ways 0:28:47.360,0:28:50.240 to their husbands. Was that common? 0:28:50.240,0:28:55.840 Was that typical in surviving ancient Egyptian art for women to be depicted as equal, 0:28:55.840,0:28:59.280 of the same size, or of equal importance as the men? 0:28:59.280,0:29:01.840 Not at all. You'll see them, 0:29:01.840,0:29:07.920 oftentimes the woman has her arm around the man, but he doesn't have his around her. 0:29:07.920,0:29:13.280 But also in these couple sculptures, you might just hear, 0:29:13.280,0:29:17.760 if there's hieroglyphs, you might just hear about the husband, 0:29:17.760,0:29:23.920 the man, not necessarily the woman as well. So when you see something like that 0:29:23.920,0:29:30.640 and there is this movement towards equality, it's not 100% equality. 0:29:30.640,0:29:35.280 He's wearing necklaces around his neck that are rows 0:29:35.280,0:29:41.440 and rows of gold beads that have been given to him by the king. 0:29:41.440,0:29:46.240 He was so admired and respected and appreciated by the king 0:29:46.240,0:29:55.120 that he gave Sennefer rewards of those necklaces. But sometimes, and you'll see in the exhibition, 0:29:55.120,0:30:01.760 there's a relief sculpture that show the women can have those necklaces as well. 0:30:01.760,0:30:06.480 It is a patriarchal society. There's one sculpture in the 0:30:06.480,0:30:15.920 exhibition showing the queen who would be king — another Queen Battie — who made herself king 0:30:15.920,0:30:20.560 over Egypt: Hatshepsut. And she has a beard on, 0:30:20.560,0:30:22.640 if I remember correctly, right? She's wearing a beard. 0:30:22.640,0:30:28.560 To be a king, you had to look like a king. And the attributes of kingship were you had 0:30:28.560,0:30:33.040 to have the full spirit of kingship, you had to wear the kilt, 0:30:33.040,0:30:38.480 you had to wear a crown or a head covering of some kind, but nothing else. 0:30:38.480,0:30:44.080 And so she is shown as a man. She was not a cross dresser in real life, 0:30:44.080,0:30:48.960 and there are images of her where she's dressed as a woman, 0:30:48.960,0:30:54.880 but in many of the statues where they were placed in important 0:30:54.880,0:31:00.480 areas within the kingdom, she could be shown as 0:31:00.480,0:31:05.600 a man and was shown as a man. Thinking about all of the different exhibitions 0:31:05.600,0:31:09.680 that you've worked on about various ancient civilizations, 0:31:09.680,0:31:13.440 what have you not been able to do yet? Do you have a white whale, 0:31:13.440,0:31:16.640 sort of a focus or a story that you want to tell that you haven't 0:31:16.640,0:31:22.640 been able to bring to America yet? Yes. I want to do an ancient 0:31:22.640,0:31:27.120 Near Eastern exhibition. I've done classical shows. 0:31:27.120,0:31:32.320 The Etruscan exhibition that just closed was monumentally 0:31:32.320,0:31:39.120 important to express the culture of the Etruscans. I've done the Egyptian shows. 0:31:39.120,0:31:46.480 I'm the only curator who did the King Tut show two times, 30 years apart. 0:31:46.480,0:31:50.880 Yes. The one that came to the de Young in 1979, if I'm not mistaken, right? 0:31:50.880,0:31:54.560 Absolutely right. And then 2009, I did it again, 0:31:54.560,0:31:59.040 and I was very happy to see how much I had learned within those 30 years. 0:31:59.040,0:32:02.400 Oh, tell me about that. Yeah. What changed in those 30 years? 0:32:02.400,0:32:08.000 How do you think you have changed as an ancient art expert over that span of time? 0:32:08.000,0:32:14.400 Oh, when it first came, and I, of course, studied ancient Egyptian 0:32:14.400,0:32:18.560 culture and art and history. I mean, I was a young curator, 0:32:18.560,0:32:24.240 I had not worked with the objects. I had not had the experience of 0:32:24.240,0:32:31.520 quite a few other Egyptian collections, but also I've added significantly to our permanent 0:32:31.520,0:32:40.000 collection of Egyptian art here in those 30 years. We have some wonderful things that I've 0:32:40.000,0:32:45.440 had a chance to study and examine. But the other thing that is important 0:32:45.440,0:32:51.200 is there are always new discoveries and there's new ways of putting 0:32:51.200,0:32:56.720 Egyptian art into a context. And so within those 30 years, 0:32:56.720,0:33:02.800 there's so much new information about ancient Egypt. 0:33:04.480,0:33:13.280 I was able to install it quite differently, but then at the same time have this unique 0:33:13.280,0:33:15.360 experience of having some of 0:33:15.360,0:33:21.360 these great treasures from the Boy King. I like to say when the Boy King was here, 0:33:21.360,0:33:26.080 I was the girl curator. That was 1979. (laugh) 0:33:26.080,0:33:30.400 But you learn and you have experience working with the objects, 0:33:30.400,0:33:35.200 and then you try to stay on top of all the new discoveries 0:33:35.200,0:33:44.000 and the new ideas around the king. The second time I did the King Tut show, 0:33:44.000,0:33:47.440 I knew so much more. I mean, he died at such 0:33:47.440,0:33:52.560 a young age and people used to think, how could he have accomplished anything? 0:33:53.120,0:33:57.120 He was young when he came on and became the pharaoh. 0:33:57.120,0:34:07.120 And then he died, let's see, 17, 18 years old. But remember, we talked about Akhenaten. 0:34:07.120,0:34:14.480 Now we know that Akhenaten was his father. Didn't know that before. DNA testing. 0:34:14.480,0:34:18.960 I mean, there are all kinds of things that we've come upon. 0:34:18.960,0:34:22.880 Nefertiti was not his mother, it was another queen. 0:34:22.880,0:34:31.760 But the public was not happy with only one god that Akhenaten, his father, had done. 0:34:31.760,0:34:36.960 Akhenaten taxed the temples and the priests didn't like it. 0:34:36.960,0:34:44.320 And when Tutankhamun came on — his name was originally Tut-ankh-aten 0:34:44.320,0:34:48.000 named after the sun disc. He went back to being 0:34:48.000,0:34:55.520 -amun. He went back to saying ... He refurbished a lot of the temples. 0:34:55.520,0:35:02.080 The priests could once again teach their basic religious ideas 0:35:02.080,0:35:05.520 and principles of polytheism. 0:35:05.520,0:35:13.280 So now we knew so much more about him than in 1979. 0:35:13.840,0:35:19.840 So it really opened the doors to being able to tell a more comprehensive story. 0:35:19.840,0:35:23.360 So I'm sorry, I interrupted you before. You were starting to talk about a white whale 0:35:23.360,0:35:26.320 or an exhibition that you would love to oversee in the future. 0:35:26.320,0:35:32.960 I have not done a major show on the ancient Near East or Western Asia, 0:35:32.960,0:35:38.080 maybe now that we're calling it. I just want to say, you asked me also 0:35:38.080,0:35:43.280 about an object in the exhibition that just calls out to me. 0:35:43.280,0:35:46.480 Yes. And it is in the last gallery, 0:35:46.480,0:35:55.360 and those are discoveries from intact royal tombs that were only discovered in 1939, 1940. 0:35:55.360,0:35:59.040 And they would've been world famous. They would've hit the headlines. 0:35:59.040,0:36:05.920 They would've been on the front page of all the newspapers except for the fact of World War II. 0:36:05.920,0:36:12.080 So nobody knew about these discoveries. And these are extraordinary objects. 0:36:12.080,0:36:17.920 And one of the objects in the exhibition is a large necklace 0:36:17.920,0:36:25.040 of lapis lazuli beads that has been restrung by an Egyptian. 0:36:25.040,0:36:30.160 So there are gold balls as well and a gold clasp in the back. 0:36:30.160,0:36:37.600 But what makes it extraordinary is that there is an Assyrian lapis 0:36:37.600,0:36:45.120 lazuli gorgeous blue bead that has a cuneiform inscription on it. 0:36:46.080,0:36:51.440 And what I like to talk about, I mean, this is from the same period of time, 0:36:51.440,0:37:02.240 the Assyrians from today's Northern Iraq had commerce with the Egyptians at about 1000 BC. 0:37:02.240,0:37:08.080 They overlapped in time. And what I like to do is to talk about who 0:37:08.080,0:37:13.120 knew whom and the interrelationships. Yes. 0:37:13.120,0:37:20.240 And that's the kind of show I would like to do. As soon as you do, I will buy a ticket, day one. 0:37:20.240,0:37:23.840 You just let me know whenever that's coming. All right. 0:37:23.840,0:37:27.040 That sounds fascinating. Yeah. We were talking at the start of this 0:37:27.040,0:37:30.720 conversation about how museums can captivate you, can surprise you, 0:37:30.720,0:37:34.720 can change you on a molecular level. Let's also talk about the Etruscans exhibit 0:37:34.720,0:37:40.400 that recently closed at the Legion of Honor. What was surprising there? How did that change 0:37:40.400,0:37:44.720 you, overseeing that exhibition? The Etruscan exhibition took 0:37:44.720,0:37:51.040 many years for me to organize and a lot of negotiating with 0:37:51.040,0:37:58.160 colleagues and museum directors around the world, really, to understand the ancient Etruscans. 0:37:58.160,0:38:02.080 They were people who I always was fascinated about, 0:38:02.080,0:38:06.560 the Met had their collection of Etruscan art when I was growing up. 0:38:06.560,0:38:11.840 And I wondered why it was that people didn't understand that, 0:38:11.840,0:38:16.080 in the ancient world, you don't go from the Greeks to the Romans 0:38:16.080,0:38:23.200 and then from the Romans to us. There was another step and it was the Etruscans. 0:38:23.200,0:38:28.720 So you go from the Greeks to the Etruscans, the Etruscans to the Romans. 0:38:28.720,0:38:34.160 Romans stood on the shoulders of the Etruscans. Yes. 0:38:34.160,0:38:39.360 While working on that exhibition, I read a lot, I learned a lot. 0:38:39.360,0:38:46.400 I was able to convince museum directors that objects that had never before been lent, 0:38:46.400,0:38:52.800 why they were necessary to tell the story, the narrative about the ancient Etruscans. 0:38:52.800,0:39:00.320 And the different sections of the Etruscan exhibition fell into place so beautifully. 0:39:00.320,0:39:07.040 So the narrative was extremely clear as you walk from gallery to gallery. 0:39:07.040,0:39:12.240 Never in all of my years of working on exhibitions, museum exhibitions, 0:39:12.240,0:39:18.080 have I had this experience of people saying, "Oh, you're the curator? 0:39:18.080,0:39:23.353 Oh, let me thank you. This is the most beautiful exhibition I have ever seen." 0:39:23.353,0:39:24.400 Oh wow. Or "This is the 0:39:24.400,0:39:29.280 most important exhibition I've ever seen." And the one that I liked the best is the 0:39:29.280,0:39:35.360 woman who came up to me and she said, "This exhibition makes my heart sing." 0:39:35.360,0:39:43.360 Even my own show came out to be even more important and more significant. 0:39:43.360,0:39:48.400 And talking about changing people on the molecular basis, 0:39:48.400,0:39:55.120 people really felt that they learned so much about the ancient Etruscans 0:39:55.120,0:40:01.680 and many have never heard of them before. They never even heard the name. Somebody 0:40:01.680,0:40:05.920 said, "What's your next show?" And I said, "The Etruscans." "Oh, 0:40:05.920,0:40:09.600 the crustaceans. That's interesting." 0:40:09.600,0:40:11.600 (laugh) Or I said, 0:40:11.600,0:40:17.520 "Siri, show me something about the Etruscans." And they came up with a picture of a trash can. 0:40:17.520,0:40:19.920 The ancient Egyptians had a much better marketing team. 0:40:19.920,0:40:23.120 They're much better known. Yeah. Yeah. And the Greeks and the 0:40:23.120,0:40:26.000 Romans certainly did, yes. Yes. 0:40:26.000,0:40:29.120 Good PR. You got it. Yeah. 0:40:29.120,0:40:32.800 Coming up on the end of the interview here, I have one more question for you. 0:40:32.800,0:40:36.560 When you are in any museum gift shop, what do you buy? 0:40:36.560,0:40:45.440 Whoa! Oh, I'm a sucker for books, catalogs in books. 0:40:45.440,0:40:53.200 But if there's a really good reproduction of a piece of jewelry, 0:40:53.200,0:40:59.600 I guess that could be my Achilles heel. You are the first person to say jewelry. I'm 0:40:59.600,0:41:01.680 glad to have a new answer. Yes. Yeah. 0:41:01.680,0:41:07.360 Oftentimes museum stores have the best collection of books 0:41:07.360,0:41:10.400 and not just about art history, but about culture and 0:41:10.400,0:41:16.960 civilization and sometimes philosophy. So I'm on the lookout for those books. 0:41:16.960,0:41:21.760 And I was very amused in the gift shop for this exhibition, 0:41:21.760,0:41:28.000 they sell the hat that is worn by the famous Egyptologist who you worked with. 0:41:28.000,0:41:31.520 And the reason why it's there, and I'm just glad you mentioned 0:41:31.520,0:41:36.560 that because I was kind of the intermediary to make that happen, 0:41:36.560,0:41:43.680 is because the proceeds from the sale of those hats goes — 0:41:43.680,0:41:49.920 thanks to Zahi Hawass himself — it goes to a children's cancer hospital. 0:41:49.920,0:41:54.240 Fantastic. What a great cause. What a great exhibition. 0:41:54.240,0:41:57.840 Renée, you really are a queen. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. 0:41:57.840,0:42:01.360 It's wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much, Eric. This was fun. 0:42:01.360,0:42:04.400 Thanks again to Renée Dreyfus for coming on the podcast! 0:42:04.400,0:42:09.520 Treasures of the Pharaohs is running at the de Young Museum through the end of January, 2027. 0:42:09.520,0:42:12.880 And as part of our gift shop giveaway, I’m giving away a something really fun 0:42:12.880,0:42:16.800 that I bought in the exhibition gift shop. It’s a glasses case that looks 0:42:16.800,0:42:20.240 like Thuya’s coffin lid, with a matching lens cloth inside. 0:42:20.240,0:42:25.600 To enter, all you have to do is sign up for our free email newsletter at likemuseum.com. 0:42:25.600,0:42:29.040 Call ‘Em Like Museum is hosted and edited by me, Eric Johnson. 0:42:29.040,0:42:32.400 It’s produced out of my podcast agency in San Francisco, LightningPod. 0:42:33.040,0:42:37.760 Our social media specialist is Julia Wilde, artwork by Rhe Civitello. 0:42:37.760,0:42:41.280 Special thanks this week to Francisco Rosas and Lindsay Wright. 0:42:41.280,0:42:47.040 And thank you for listening! I’ll see you at the museum.