CZM Book Club: Reverse Book Club: Talking "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" with Bridget, Hazel and All of You

Welcome to Cool.

Zone Media Book Club, the only book club where you didn't have to do any reading at all because it's like a TV show. I used to actually We had a sci-fi movie watching club once, and it was specifically so that we didn't want to go to the anarchist book club, so we scheduled it on the same night, and then we went to it instead, and that's how we watched Aliens instead of reading theory. And we were like, oh, sorry, we can't make it to book club. Anyway, that's a really important story that you all need to know about me.

But what you also need to know is that this was an episode about watching a Deep Space Nine episode.

And.

It's part two of that. And I have guests. And one of them is my producer, Hazel. Hi, Hazel.

Hi, Margaret.

And one of them is the host of There Are No Girls on the Internet, Bridget Todd.

Hi, Margaret.

Hi, Hazel.

Thanks for having me.

And now we're going to get back into our discussion, but we recorded this part later. And so it's going to get put in because the whole thing, you probably figured out the gist of what's happening.

Yeah, I want to... tie in here some of our listener commentary from the reddit i'm just going to quote people directly user prune with three u's tracy says i enjoyed seeing herbert quark's jewish coded character calling his boss a fascist and being ready to throw down for benny at times however i wondered what impact this had on benny and whether it was helpful solidarity or in a way alienating interested in others perspectives on this and a little bit of context In the Deep Space Nine universe, Quark is the Ferengi bartender on the station. He's like a small little weird guy from like a very money-based capitalist alien race with like huge ears. Culture's all about the ears. And in 1950s, he appears as Herbert Rosoff,

a science fiction author who is very Jewish-coded, is kind of applied to be a communist, again, sort of subverting... The thing about, like, quark and money. Strength in the Loins replies on Reddit, turning quark into the sympathetic socialist always seemed like a mistake to me. Given how quark is, his alt character should have been villainous, like a landlord or business owner that sticks the cops on Benny or otherwise makes his life worse. And Prune Tracy responds, hmm, I don't mind the fact that the 1950s characters weren't a direct analogy to their DS9 counterparts. And I especially liked the contrast to Quark, given that the Ferengi are often associated with anti-Semitic tropes, although I think I've read

that Armin Shimmerman didn't necessarily feel that way. Please note, Armin Shimmerman is Jewish, I believe, but you should probably fact-check me on that before believing it. Back to Reddit user PruneTracy. That said, I do still wonder how sympathetic of a portrayal it is, as I do feel like he's maybe speaking for Benny without Benny necessarily wanting or endorsing it. I was reading this great paper by Roger Sneed that analyzes themes in the episode through a theological lens.

It's called Revelation as Reality, Star Trek Deep Space Nines Far Beyond the Stars, and Black Prophetic Visions. And then there's a DOI link where the author speculates that Herbert slash Quark may be jumping in more from personal antipathy towards Pabst, who again is Hazelnut. This is the editor who is played by Odo and in the Deep Space Nine universe, Quark and Odo are always at each other's throats.

So Herbert may be jumping in more from a personal antipathy towards Pabst than an actual desire for social justice, which is, I think, the vibe that I was getting. Either way, I love seeing Shimmerman get this role. Back to me, Hazel now. Sort of another layer on top of this is often, you know, in like sort of the fun facts about the episodes you'll read, you know, that a lot of these characters are appearing on screen without their character makeup for the first time, without their prosthetics.

And a lot of them, you know, kind of felt more free. But Armin Shimmerman, who plays Cork, was specifically really anxious about appearing without his prosthetics. Like he was really used to sort of relying on how the forehead and the ears worked to sort of give the character the vibe and help him get into, you know, help him embody the character. And so it was like a particular challenge to not have that to lean on. But yeah, I'm sort of curious about this, like the role of Black and Jewish solidarity in the civil rights era. And also like, you know, where does advocacy or, you know, trying to interrupt oppression, sort of become a little bit more self-serving? How is, like, authenticity sort of playing into

all of this?

I don't know.

What do you guys think? Because you're smarter than me. I'm just a bitch.

I could see both sides. Honestly, that Reddit poster was making some good points I hadn't previously thought of. I will say, though, one of the dopest lines of the whole episode, him yelling, what is it? I'm not going to let some two-bit fascist call me a pinko!

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

I tried to read this academic article, but it was ivory-towered away from me. It's behind the equivalent of a paywall, but I don't have institutional access to this article. I want to push back against the article I've never read, which is a really fun thing to do and always really safe. Obviously, Odo and Quark have a strong dynamic of antipathy on the show, but also a deep love at the same time. They're very tightly connected with each other in this interesting way. But I think that the Jewish presence in civil rights and actually especially prior to the civil rights movement of the 1950s, some of the only white people involved in black struggle in the United States in the first half of the 20th century were

communists and specifically the Communist Party, which is not my favorite thing to advocate for. But like just straight up, that's just the truth, right? The people who were fighting the hardest for anti-racism was a very integrated black and white communist movement in the United States. And obviously, this character does not identify as a communist. But specifically, Jewish solidarity was very strong in the early half of the 20th century. And the thing about Jewish tropes is that you have this bifurcation of the tropes where the Jew is both the capitalist and the communist. And it kind of depends on when you're looking at this Jewishness. And if you're looking at it in the first half of the 20th century— you're much more likely, I believe, based

on my historical reading, which of course skews towards the left, to have the assumption that the Jewish person is an immigrant or is the child of immigrants and is a dirty socialist, is a dirty pinko, right? And to be involved in anti-racist struggle. So to me, it just felt perfectly in character. And so I think the more interesting question is whether or not it's speaking over or for people.

But You know, I don't think that it's the character doing it like that character is just fucking acting how they think. You know, they're not like trying to be a good ally in a 21st century woke way. They're just like, are you fucking kidding me? You're going to fucking do that? That's fucked up. Just instinctive, you know?

Yeah.

Doesn't have to be like a articulation of a clear practice.

Yeah, totally.

Sometimes shit's fucked up and you're mad about it and you're yelling in the office.

Have you ever seen that video of the kid who beats his dad? for calling his friend the N-word.

No!

And the kid is like 14, is like, stop calling my friend, and then says the N-word, you know? And then the dad says it one more time, so the kid knocks his dad unconscious.

Oh my gosh!

Yeah, that's not a clear articulation of like, the kid said the word, you know?

It's like, your heart's in the right place, but. I have one thing to say, Hazel, when you were talking about how the Star Trek actors felt about being in or out of their prosthetics and their makeup. I never knew Worf as a babe. Oh, yeah.

Oh, Michael Dorn.

Worf is like the slick baseball player when we first see him in the 50s world. He's wearing like a red suit and like he's trying to take Benny's gal. I was like, oh, shit. Might have worked on me.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first time that I watched this episode, I didn't recognize anybody. I was like, who are all these people? And then I remember being at the end of that. I was like, damn, that was the best episode. I got to go read all the Wikipedia about it. It was like, oh shit. Like everybody is a character. Like that newsboy was nog and the guy who hands out all the illustrations is general Martok.

And it was like so fun to then get to watch it again and have a fresh experience. Like, Again, I love media that, like, unlocks itself as you watch it and then every time you, like, get new meaning out of it. And, like, I've seen this episode probably 10 times. And even this time, like, I always find something new. I always find something that is like, oh, shit, they did that. And kind of in character, am I like, oh, shit, they did that. I found myself thinking about O'Brien's character a lot. Chief Miles O'Brien in the Deep Space Nine universe is the chief mechanic, right? Chief Engineer.

But do you know what was in DS9 in the 90s but isn't as commonly in it now?

Is it maybe advertisements? It is.

It is.

It's interesting how shows were like written around moments of going to ads in a way that they're not anymore. I'd say we really lost something, but I'm not sure we did. But here's ads.

Ads. And we're back. I didn't think streaming where like, yeah, where your ads just kind of interrupted did take something away from the experience of watching. I mean, I think in general, we've lost a lot.

Of from streaming.

Like it used to be like you were turning on the television. I'm going to watch the same thing. And I know that 10 million other people are also watching the same thing as me. And I don't get that same experience now, but. We are talking about Chief Miles O'Brien, who in the Deep Space Nine universe is the chief engineer.

And so he works with like all of the station's computers and stuff. And he's real wicked.

Smart and whatnot.

And in the 1950s magazine, he's like their best writer. He writes a lot about robots. He's sort of, you know, modeled on Isaac Asimov, according to, you know, all the fun facts. But he has a stutter. I found myself reflecting on it as like such an interesting thing. move and also one of these things that is like kind of multi-layered you know of on the one hand right like the guy who's not very good at talking is really good at writing you know I think that that tension is really interesting to me of like maybe he's like he's not good at talking but his stories are really good or it's you know sort of the opposite of he's actually not very good with words you know he just is a white guy who writes about robots

and you know there's not nothing too controversial going on um And so, yeah, I mean, his stories aren't so good, but he's still getting paid four cents a word, an extra cent. He, like, sells a book in the middle of the episode. And, yeah, I mean, I think it's one of these things where, like, you know, both of them can be true and they both, you know, sort of lend this interesting meaning. Either around, you know, sort of not judging someone, you know, not judging a book on the cover. Or, you know, a commentary on... sort of white mediocrity and the like black folks have to work twice as hard to get half as much. Again, one of these moments of like, I just, I love that it's all there.

I love that we get everything.

I really like how you put that. I have the exact same kind of trajectory with that character of, you know, Benny is writing these like complicated stories and like, having to really work hard just to get any kind of recognition and watching, I mean, I have to imagine this is by intention and I certainly know a thing or two about it, but like watching it kind of come so easily to someone else in your cohort, not to say that they're not smart or they don't work hard or they're not talented, but I just know what that feels like to have everything that you have do feel like such a struggle and such a challenge and fight.

And then seemingly, oh, this guy who writes his nice stories about robots and specifically their editor is like, we need to write stories, not stories about blacks and whites, stories about robots, not stories about issues as if, science fiction does not explore, you know, complex political or social or racial issues. But yeah, I just, I really identified with that vibe of like, he's a nice guy. These stories probably are good, but also look how easy it seems like shit is for him.

I like the fact that he's a nice guy and friends with Benny. And like, they're talking, like he's the first one he meets. He like sees him outside. They're clearly friends. Cause it makes that tension so much more visceral, you know, like Benny's not mad at, O'Brien. But God, that's got to be frustrating.

Yeah. I mean, and there's also like an air of that like O'Brien is kind of apologetic about it too. He seems like conscious of what's going on. Well, I just sold a book, but it seems like in bad taste because of the struggle that you're having.

I liked that writer's room. I liked all of these different ways that people are responding to this thing happening. And most people are trying to be supportive but kind of in a way where they're like I don't know how to do this right you know or they're like I don't know it was all a dream I don't know you know yeah.

Or like you know Kay here's character is the first one to sort of bring up that like Benny has come in with like visible.

Wounds and they've all sort of heard you know that he's you know been brutalized by the police And Kay is the one to, like, address it as the woman in the room, as, you know, the person who also doesn't go through the same thing, but goes through things that are similar, not necessarily comparable.

And addresses it with a lot of compassion and, like, wants to make space for, you know, Benny's pain and Benny's struggle.

Yeah, I like that her characters, I mean, like, It's when early on we're hearing about, you know, she's also not able to be in the picture because she's a woman. It would be very easy and very 90s for the show to kind of put their struggles in competition. And I appreciate that that's never done. It would be very 90s to do that, though.

Yeah. Well, I think I want to maybe bring it home with one last Reddit comment and sort of tie us back into the Black August theme that we talked Touch in and out of on. So this one, this last comment comes from RealHotGuts. Once again, fabulous Reddit name. I'm a huge Trek fan, so I'm forever doing rewatches.

Last time I rewatched this DS9 episode happened to land somewhere in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder and the BLM movement, which made this episode actually kind of bleak. This was an episode written in the 1990s, looking back at racism in the 1950s, particularly the role of police and police brutality in enforcing that. It is likely that, for the predominantly white writing and production team, the killing of Rodney King by the LAPD and the subsequent riots and scandals had a significant influence on this episode and its themes. To watch this in the 2020s, following yet another high-profile murder of a Black man by an American police force, really carried a heavy sense that things just

don't change. Which isn't true, of course. What's actually happened is that hard-won reforms and changes have been meticulously unpicked between these incidents by powerful people who, realistically, like racism and think it's good. I don't know if that's more or less bleak, but I don't want to be a buzzkill about this really powerful episode, so I'm going to lean into the positive and say that the fact that they have to keep rolling back reforms is because we, Black people, allies, minorities, and marginalized people of all kinds, keep claiming rights and space for ourselves. And we will continue doing that for as long as there are people trying to repress us. And eventually we will outpace them.

A thing that hits about this for me is like sort of the cyclical story that it's telling, you know, both about racism in the 1950s, racism in the 1990s on the Star Trek set, and also about how Benjamin Sisko interacts with his identity as a Black man in the 2300s.

I don't know.

What are other people thinking about this?

That was probably the thing I felt most kind of, the thing that felt weightiest to me in the episode. And, you know, when the episode starts, I was really struck by the sort of heaviness and loss and trauma and destruction that Sisko is like really grappling with. And I really kind of felt this heaviness in him of just looking around for a way out. And I feel this episode is a kind of a commentary on that, both the character and also the actor of like a little bit of a reprieve from what sounds like it was sometimes not the most pleasant experience of shooting this show, dealing with a fandom that we know can be, you know, sometimes not the most chill when it comes to issues of race.

No, actually, that's interesting because I think about how I keep being like, you don't have to watch the rest. And to be fair, I haven't seen Deep Space Nine in its entirety since I was very young. So I don't remember all of the context. I know that there's this huge war going on and that he keeps losing people who are close to him. And you're right that it shouldn't be totally separated from that context. It shouldn't be totally understood as an entirely discrete story. And I think that that does tie into... I'm still just starting to learn about Afrofuturism. I've been around it. I've seen elements of it for a long time. But I think it's really important to understand how it's different than like

white or race blind conceptions of science fiction and stuff like that. And I think it might be, some of it might be around this like context of heaviness and loss and like what escapism looks like is different based on the situation you're in. And I think that's like one of the reasons this episode particularly resonates with me right now is that as we are living under fascism and everything feels really precarious, like it's really easy to see.

I live in the history books that I read for my show much more deeply than I would have otherwise, right? I find myself when I read fiction, I'm a little bit more deeply escapist in a way that I haven't been since I was young and had a not particularly wonderful experience of middle school, you know?

I feel so similarly, you know, I think I actually like really dialed into this from listening to your show, which is when things are really hard and you're in a hard place, it sometimes feels like things are hopeless. But what is useful for me is remembering that my ancestors, as a Black woman, my ancestors certainly went through very, very difficult experiences, harder than I will ever know. And They still had to dream that a better future was possible and that they might be in that future. Their ancestors might be in that future. You know that expression, you're your ancestors' wildest dreams? Like, I feel like this episode really captures that well, that, you know, being able to imagine a future that is better than the one

that you have is Afrofuturism. That's science fiction. That's speculative. And that's also, it can be a social and political praxis, right? You know, there was this artist, Alicia Wormsley, who used to have this project when we were in this like horrible wave of unarmed Black folks being killed by police, put up billboards that just said, there are Black people in the future. And I remember feeling so moved by that because it's so simple and it seems so you know, it seems so basic, but even just like that affirmation that we will be here in the future. You can't pulp us. You can't pulp our dreams. You can't, you know, you can't kill us all. We will be here in the future. Maybe in 400 years, we'll be manning space

stations in space. Colored folks on the moon is how he describes the story. Like I really found a lot of, a lot of meaning in that.

I don't think it's a coincidence then to tie back to the Jewish black solidarity that was a big part of early 20th century struggle, that like, we will outlive them was like such an important reference.

Well, I have a question for you. What's your relationship to the Star Trek universe and Deep Space Nine? Are you like a casual fan?

Oh, we should have done this at the beginning. I grew up in like a nerd household, a pretty deeply nerd household. Our idea of a good time, we would go to the beach. So we'd stop at the library and everyone had to make sure they had enough books for the weekend, which would usually be about three books would might be enough for the weekend, you know?

It's like a book a day.

Yeah, yeah, about that. And I remember like I wasn't really allowed to let car sickness stop me from reading in the car. I learned, I don't know if this is true universally, But as a kid, I learned that I used to be carsick when I tried reading in the car. And then I would keep reading. And then eventually I stopped being carsick. And I like learned how to not get carsick while reading in the car. So we grew up watching Star Trek. And I watched a lot of Deep Space Nine as it was coming out.

But I also wasn't, I like left Star Trek behind for a long time. I mean, one of the first like subcultural spaces I ever went to was like a Star Trek convention when I was like a kid. And I was like, I really wanted one of those Klingon swords real bad, but I didn't have any money. So I did not get a Klingon sword. But I've been kind of coming back to Star Trek. I'm not a, I think I'm like casual plus. You know, I've seen most of the Star Trek that came out before the 21st century. I'm certain I've seen all of the original.

I'm certain I've seen all of Next Generation. I've probably seen all of Voyager and DS9, but I'm not sure about you.

Yeah, I would say pretty cash. My, I mean, my late father, God rest his soul, was the heartbeat of the nerddom of our household. And he was the kind of person who was like up late at night watching this kind of stuff. And, you know, watching the episode, I was like, oh, I wish I could ask my dad what he thought about this episode.

Oh, that's cool.

It was like top of mind was like, I wish I had gotten the chance to, because I'm sure he had opinions, you know?

Yeah.

But it was just, it honestly is just like a nice piece of encapsulated speculative science fiction. Like it really, I wish we had, and there's probably good stuff on TV that I'm not watching and not familiar with. So people will have to give me their recs. But this felt like something different that we don't have a lot of today in 2026.

Yeah, I think we get some stuff that's like, there's some stuff that's happening now that I think is amazing. I think Andor, have you seen Andor?

I have not.

Oh, you have to– so I'm even more casual with my Star Wars than I am with my Star Trek. But Andor solves all of my problems with Star Wars, which is that I don't really care about space wizards. You'd think I would, but like I just like kind of don't care about like space eugenics where like if you're a real wizard Harry Potter, it's like in your blood or whatever. Andor is I think the best representation of revolution that's ever been put on television of any kind.

And you should totally see that. But there is also some of the newer Star Trek– is good. Some of the, like, Lower Decks really surprised me, because Lower Decks is the comedy cartoon one, and it's really good. And then I've also, I've been enjoying, but I'm not caught up on Starfleet Academy, which is, like, I think the newest Trek. And recently, Star Trek, the ship, when it comes through, has, like, a rainbow behind it, and I've been calling it Woke Trek to make fun of it and myself. But, you know, it's always been Woke Trek. It Obviously there's like elements of conservatism woven throughout it too. And it's like failed in a lot of regards as well. But like they set out to create Woke Trek and when they first

made Star Trek, you know.

I'm going to start calling it Woke Trek. That's so good.

Well, final thoughts about this episode? I have one. I always have one. I always have thoughts. This is why I'm talking to a mic. But I don't need to go first.

Yeah, I just think this is the question of who gets to imagine the future? You know, who gets to dream? That's kind of what I'm left with with this episode, sort of grappling with that question. And I think we all get to dream, you know? They can't pulp our dreams.

Yeah.

I like how pulp has multiple meanings because pulp is also like the way people describe like pulpy fiction, although it's etymologically related, right? It's these like cheap magazines, you know, cheap stories or whatever. My final thought is to reflect back on something that hazel said a while ago that i just have been sitting with me ever since they said it which is about how there's an alchemy to the creation of art especially large complex pieces of art that have many people involved in making them and that is as much as i love writing and like individually written stories i think there's actually a specific alchemy that is found from the creative process that has to be collaborative like a show and i like that people can

pick apart things, some of which were meant and some of which weren't meant and yet are still real. And I feel like that even gets into the theme of this episode, but I don't know how to put my finger on it, but I don't know that I need to.

Yeah, I think that this episode is such a masterclass in like leaving meaning open and like not letting the future, like denying closure, but in a way that's really powerful. kind of like both with what you were saying Margaret but also just in like the kind of piece of art that it is like allegedly there's like an alternate ending that was written and maybe filmed that like ends with Benny Russell directing an episode of Star Trek which I think you know yeah and obviously like I mean that would be kind of putting a little bit too fine a point on it I do if you if you really really push me I would tell you that all of Star Trek is just Benny Russell's writing from the 1950s sort of canonically but anyway I think that

like yeah this this episode's interest in lack of closure and interested in the multiple meanings and multiplicity of identity yeah it's really interesting to me and maybe there's something there about like that's a way future right the Zapatistas tell us to look for a world in which many worlds fit this is a story in which many stories fit this is an episode in which many episodes fit yeah And I'm not really smart enough to tell you all about it. I'm just a bitch. But there's some really smart people over at Starter Trek who also recently did it. And if you really want the deep dive on all of the lore, I'd recommend going to go check out their episode. This was not planned. I've had this episode penciled in for like three or four months now.

But yeah, obviously Andrew T and Tawny Newsome, our buds, Jesse Gender has been making Star Trek content forever that I've consumed and I've respected. So, yeah, and I did avoid listening to it so that we didn't, you know, retread the same territory here. But, yeah, you all should go check out their stuff if you are interested in Star Trek, interested in smart people talking about Star Trek.

Well, but what if people are interested in hearing more of Bridget Todd's analysis of other stuff? Is there a way, Bridget, that people could do that?

Oh, yeah.

I've got you covered. Much like this episode grapples with what is real, quote unquote, if that's something that tickles a spot in your brain, I have an entire new audio book about AI intimacy and what we risk when we outsource the basics of human connection to AI that is run by tech companies that, spoiler alert, you cannot always trust. You can check it out. It's called Love at First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy. You can check it out at loveatfirstprompt.com. And you can also listen to my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet.

Hell yeah.

It's a banger podcast. Can certify. Oh, my God.

That means so much coming from y'all. That's going to do it for us for this week. But we will be back next week with more stuff. I don't know what it is yet, but it'll be more of it. And it'll happen.

Thanks for listening.

CZM Book Club: Reverse Book Club: Talking "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" with Bridget, Hazel and All of You

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