WDCAST 02 - Anne Bartens / Carl Naughton / Ines Wildhage "Können wir heute noch zuversichtlich sein?"

0:00 (Music) Rainer Gehrisch: How Can We Still Be Optimistic Today? How can we remain confident – confident, when one piece of bad news follows another?Welcome to the second episode of WDCast, the podcast of the World Design Capital Frankfurt RheinMain 2026, produced in collaboration with DDCast, the podcast of the German Design Club (DDC).

0:47 This episode explores optimism and the good life.We begin with a short statement from Ines Wildhage, Cross Media Consultant in the Campaigns and Communications Team at Amnesty International. Amnesty and optimism? Yes, that works. Ines opens the episode with a reflection that genuinely inspires confidence and encourages us. Following her statement, Anne Bartens, project manager at the non-profit organization Lust auf besser Leben (“Desire for a Better Life”) — which is planning to implement the Democracy Kiosks project as part of the WDC year — and Carl Naughton, transformation psychologist and researcher on curiosity, join Georg-Christof Bertsch to discuss their experiences and ideas. A psychologist and a woman driving sustainable urban and social

1:43 development — both embodying optimism and resilience. Ines Wildhage (Intro) We know that our work matters. We draw a lot of strength and optimism from this. Amnesty is researching human rights violations worldwide and is therefore confronted with the worst content and very often with bad news. But that doesn't discourage us. On the contrary. We are confident that justice will prevail in the long term and that human rights will really become a reality for all people. reality. That may sound paradoxical or out of this world, but it is a story of hope. We know that certain mechanisms work to stop human rights violations. We know about the effect of solidarity and the public. And that it comes down to

2:35 communication. The combination of factual reports, legal expertise, solidarity, humanity and concrete actions. It is about showing authoritarian forces and those responsible for human rights violations. We are many. We see the human rights violations in your country. And we all want you to stop them. This creates pressure for change. It is not a sprint, but a marathon. But with it we have success. And that motivates us and is therefore also a source of optimism.

3:38 Georg-Christof Bertsch: Hello everyone, I'm sitting here in the studio with Anne Bartens from Lust auf Besser Leben and Carl Naughton from Zuversicht. I would like to start with a summary of the show under the motto "better life with optimism". First, though, about the impulse. We have an impulse ahead of the show, in the case of Ines Wildhage from Amnesty International, that we just want to discuss together, we want to hear what's in there and what you noticed. First of all, good day, Carl, how are you?

4:08 Carl Naughton: Hello, I'm fine, thank you. I'm one of the future optimists. Georg: I'm excited. Anne, how are you? Anne Bartens: I'm fine, thank you. I'm also reasonably optimistic. That's a very unusual greeting, because we often have to deal with worries, but I’m here with an optimistic attitude. Georg: Anne, how do you perceive Ines’ statement? What is going through your head or what did you notice?

4:40 Anne: I can identify very well with her because I think that this is a difficult topic she works on and yet that she simply puts the effect of her own trade in focus and therefore has this confidence and this optimistic picture of the future und ihr Schaffen. I can identify very well with that, so yes, I understand what she says.

5:09 Georg: Carl, how are you? I mean, you have a different background than I do, with optimism. It's partly about research. What do you hear when you listen to Ines? Carl: Yes, well, the nice thing is that such a person can of course describe it as he experiences it. And then you realise that you don't really need research and technical terms to experience where a person takes his positive attitude, even on such a challenging topic. In our vocabulary, this would be described as having substantial psychological capital. That's a term that always sounds a bit like a mixture of Sigmund Freud and Karl Marx.

5:57 That's why, earlier, we referred to it as 'courage for the future' (Zukunftsmut).. And why does she have that, and why do you hear that so often? She speaks of confidence, that is one of the translations for one of the important dimensions. And we understand that a person is firmly convinced that there are always several ways to achieve a goal, and that he can rely on them, like a kind of willpower and waypower . And something else that she strives for, and Anne has already mentioned this, is this optimism. In psychology, this is also referred to as self-efficacy. It's the feeling that I do have the skills to do it. And at the very end of this minute of input, she also used something very briefly, we call it “learned optimism”. This is also a dimension of

6:52 'courage for the future'. And what makes it so special, is that it's not some kind of feeling, like, yes, the glass is half full, we just have the wrong glass, but that's fine, but it's much more like, how can we explain our previous successes, also our failures? And from those answers, people gain something like a learned optimism, i.e. a justified positive view of future successes. And that is actually very well included in the short statement that she made.

7:25 Georg: Anne, let's look at the concept of self-effectiveness that Carl just used. I assume that in your work, or at least when you read the title, “Desire for Life, for a Better Life” – the topic of self-efficacy, resonates with you. When do you personally feel self-effective in your work? Or when do you feel a special satisfaction within your work?

7:45 Anne: We do project work in the broadest sense for sustainability and all our projects are effective. So, already from the very beginning of project planning, we focus on how to design our projects for maximum social impact. And accordingly, almost everything we do here is equipped with certain social aspects which is very, very positive for my self-efficacy. Because I've always wanted to align my professional work exactly with this.

8:08 How can I achieve the most positive impact possible? How can I generate as much effectiveness as possible? And that's why I have found an organization where this has always been the focus. So everything we do revolves around this topic. And that's just very positive for me as a person, because it gives me confidence, hope, and so on.

8:27 And yes, I can only recommend it. Georg: If you know, Carl, want to put a group of people you may have never even seen, in a better state, without magic. And this aspect that you mentioned earlier, how would you proceed? We're sitting here with a group of ten people, some of them are grumpy, right? What do you do with them?

8:43 Carl: That's interesting. Grumpy, that might be due to my own appearance or to what I stand for. I have relatively little to do with grumpy people. But of course I have a lot to do with people in companies who experience what I think we all have experienced. A time full of challenges, full of rejections, where a little more is still demanded, of course, because the result of tomorrow should be better than the result of today. And that's actually my daily bread. That I stand in front of these people, no matter if it's 15, 20, 50, 100or 500, and report to them what we know about this psychological capital. The important thing is that we're having this conversation now. And Anne serves as a great example. Many people, like her, discover something

9:25 meaningful — a sense of purpose or drive — that brings them close to what we might call their motivational sweet spot. I personally feel very similar to that, because I can freely choose my research topics, I am largely a master of my professional everyday life, and the only thing where I have little freedom of action is when I take the German train.

9:46 But apart from that, there is also a good reason to be optimistic about the German Railways. But now they have a strong woman in the leadership position. So, to take this a little more seriously, what I give to these people is that, although this is research and theory and there is a lot of knowledge behind it, you can transfer it quite straightforwardly into everyday life. And I just told you a little bit about optimism, what we mean by that. And in fact, we have already worked with physicians in the automotive industry, so really where people don't have that much optimism. The physicians are mainly the patients and we teach them different tools. And one of the tools that is so particularly effective,

10:27 but curiously extremely unknown, although it has been in research for 20 years, is WOOP. WOOP is an acronym that stands for wish, outcome, obstacle and plan. In German it would be WUNSCH (wish), ERGEBNIS (outcome), HÜRDE (obstacle) and PLAN (plan). The acronym in German would be WERHP, which no one can remember. So you do that in English, you take the English WOOP. And the important thing is why you can do this with such a large group and who have at least the approach to become more confident afterwards. The goal, whether it is a project goal or a private one, can be quite clear. The second is what we call the outcome.

11:07 Use a little imagination. Imagine for 2, 3, 4 minutes how it feels when you have achieved it. And in the past it stopped there. That was positive psychology 1.0. And then both the researchers and the people who took care of the people wondered, whether they were clinical psychologists or involved in life coaching or support work, it still didn’t work. The people didn't reach the goal. And the reason was that we didn't look at the obstacles with the same approach as the challenge.

11:31 And if you do that, if you think about it beforehand, And then you say, okay, cool, I already feel great about being there, but what if this and that happens? That's the second step, so which obstacles await. And then also to have plans, so to speak, if that obstacle arises, then I do that. And if you take these four steps, then you have positive psychology 2.0. And there is really this WOOP thing, it was developed by Gabriele Oetting, a very famous psychologist, and it can show, no matter where, whether it is in learning challenges, in partnership, in nutrition, always when people believe they have a beautiful goal, but do not know how they can really achieve it and lose their confidence, then

12:17 such mini-tools intervene. The tools have to be small so that they intervene quickly in everyday life, but the power of this action has to be great. And that's what I want to give to these people, regardless of whether they are 100 or not, so that they see that this is a question of technique and not a question of magic or luck.

12:36 Georg: Anne, I'm sure you don't have a system behind what you do. But I have the same question for you. You have a group of people in front of you. You have heard that this is a very systematic approach that Carl is following. What do you do with these people, so that they feel better, so that they feel good in the place or in the situation?

12:59 Anne: Well, I think the first step for me would be to understand why the people I'm talking to, or those I now refer to as grumpy — they are struggling. And I think often, from my experience, what I notice is that pessimism stresses many people. So pessimistic people are tired and maybe in a bad mood. And that simply has a negative impact. And the question I would ask myself is, how can I take this person's pessimism in some way? Of course, everyone is responsible for themselves, I am aware of that. But maybe I can give a little push for something like, I think optimism is a big word, but maybe in a small way, maybe feeling anticipation for something. to feel again. I mean, when we are children,

13:33 we are always looking forward to everything. We look forward to Christmas, we look forward to our next birthday, we look forward to school holidays. And I think as an adult, sometimes you lose this ability to look forward to things. And in general, anticipation is also just ... it does something with the brain. Dopamine is released, I have drive, I have motivation. And the question is, how can people be encouraged to look a little more positively at life and to feel something like anticipation? And I think that's the basis of being optimistic. And that's the only way to create satisfaction and quality of life in the end, if you look positively at life. And maybe I would just share my perspective. I think you always have to see it's a

14:11 privileged perspective that I have because I look at my life from a very satisfied position. I don't think everyone is as good as me, so I can understand it if some people are more pessimistic. But I think sharing this attitude and listening exactly to what a person needs to perhaps look more positively at the future, to start a dialogue and to look for a conversation, I think that would be my method.

14:30 Georg: That's basically a half-answer, because you still haven't said what exactly it is that you do. You specifically said that you do something to convey this self-confidence, this good feeling and satisfaction to the people. But what is your actual activity? Anne: I can give you an example. One of the projects where we want to do something against pessimism in our society is the new project ‘Democravy Kiosk", which we are designing as part of the WDC. And that's exactly what it's all about. We have found that many people are simply no longer in exchange with each other, no longer talk to each other. There is a great political stalemate. Young people no longer want to vote, have little interest in democracy and simply do not feel included. And then

15:04 we asked ourselves the question, okay, what can we actually do so that people can get back into exchange with each other and as barrier-free as possible. Of course, I can now sign up for a course at the peoples university related to democracy, but that is also something that is only close to a certain group of people, to take such an educational path. Then we have developed the project ‘Demokratie Kiosk’, and it is about creating encounters in public spaces, namely at kiosks, where people are already there anyway. And if you imagine a typical Frankfurt water house, you can see all kinds of people. Sometimes, mothers gather in the neighbourhood with their strollers and chat. . There are children

15:48 sitting around and buying a mixed bag, whatever. But in any case, it is a place where many people come to exchange with each other. And we have identified this place as a possible place to start conversations and to develop a different view on the topic of democracy together. Georg: Let us now, to give the listeners the opportunity to understand exactly what you do as an organisation, do something like an elevator pitch. In four minutes, you tell us what you actually do with your organisation. We will now go into detail, which I also find very good.

16:25 But I think from the outside, even if you look at the websites, this subjective assessment of what the organization is doing is not yet to be seen. I would like to start with Carl and I will actually stop talking for four minutes. And you will not pitch as an investor, but as a four-minute presentation. Who are you actually and what do you offer?

16:52 Carl: So, I'll start. Here we go. Curiously, I have never seen an elevator that is running for four minutes. It must be the 350th floor. But I would love to. Maybe I will also avoid this time. We called our lab the Open Mind Lab. And that means that I work with various research communities. I work with colleagues at the University of Virginia because they have the same research field. I worked with the Zukunftsinstitut in Frankfurt and Vienna because we shared a similar worldview on Zukunftsmut. And I’m always the ‘crazy uncle’ who brings up what really moves people — and how it affects them when we talk about the future. And that's how this idea came about, that we actually take care of our properties and focus on them, which brings a certain ability

17:43 to the future. That is, to bring people into action, to give them tools to actively participate in democratic processes, for example. What I advocate is using research that has proven itself in practice. We hear a lot of opinions, but I believe in relying on results that are empirically grounded. Working with an approach that focuses on evidence rather than assumptions simply gives me more confidence when I stand in front of others and explain what could be done. Because it’s meta individual — not just like, 'Oh, I thought it worked great for me, so now you can buy it from me and that's how the research on what we see in our professional everyday life came about. So, how do we create a successful working life? And you can see that it's expanding more and

18:29 more. In general, it means, how do we create a successful life for ourselves and for others? And that's the core of what I create. And we do a lot of research ourselves, for example on the future good, because there are more than 3,000 studies on psychological capital. Of course, we didn't do all of them, we did a few. From relationships that interest us. And then we go into companies — sometimes by offering inspiration, sometimes by supporting change processes, or by working with you directly on democratic approaches. Together, we explore: What can we actually do? Because that's what I noticed, what is missing in the country. I'm also English, so that means I'm German and also English, and that works. And I'm not permanently talking about football with

19:33 myself. And I saw that in England there is a behavioural science unit in the government. So these are really organizations and transformation psychologists who deal with nothing other than how we can use psychological knowledge as a whole in society. And they get very curious results, I might be able to report on that later. But that's the approach of the Open Mind Lab, and that's what I get up for every morning, The goal is to achieve that — using different methods, with ease, with strategic tools that are quick to implement and that don't decay so quickly that you think it's pink psychologist's cotton candy again, It’s about doing it with joy and lightness.

20:35 Georg: Wonderful. You would have had 22 seconds left. Thank you very much for that. That was much more a representation of how you work, as well as the way you got there, as well as the outlook on other organizations, such as the British government organization, that have incorporated this behavioural theme. Thank you very much for that. Now Anne, let’s give you the same green light — take the time you need, but briefly describe what you do, what you offer, and what you're all about, so we can better understand it.

21:10 Anne: So “Lust auf Besser Leben” is a non-profit company and was founded more than ten years ago in the Social Impact Lab. The Social Impact Lab Frankfurt was a hub for social entrepreneurship. It all started with something we said — although I wasn’t there at the time. It was actually my colleague Marlene Haas who said that the economy doesn’t have to be profit-driven. A company can operate economically and still focus on creating social impact. And that's how “Lust auf Besser Leben” was founded. And our work is oriented to the Sustainable Development Goals of the UN. There are 17 goals for sustainable economy, some of them are well known, such as climate protection, gender equality, the right to

22:27 education and so on. As an organization, we try to implement these goals locally in our projects to implement and to improve. So now as an example, we have launched a de-sealing campaign in Frankfurt, where we opened areas that were previously asphalted with the help of the Green Area Office to increase the quality of life in urban areas. We have developed Frankfurt's first container system. We have exchange stations that are set up to prevent the issuance of one-way bags. We have organised participation processes so that citizens can influence the city policy. It goes from BIS. It's a colourful bouquet of possibilities that we have. We have a project about supporting the fashion industry and the fashion designers in the Rhine-Main area to be able to work more

24:20 sustainably. We are currently working on a big project, which is about our favourite topic, legumes, in which less meat is eaten and more cauliflower. And that's what makes this organization so effective, that depending on who works here, different interests are brought in. and we can work so selflessly. Theoretically, I can identify a problem now and then, I don't know, I see a funding application and write an application and try to address exactly this problem. It's a very young organization.

25:44 We are a small team, we are currently eight people and we all have a big drive to do what we do. At the same time, it means that we are a non-profit company, that we also have savings that generate profit. These are mainly consulting services, such as managing and creating CO2 balances for companies or implementing large participation processes for municipal stakeholders. We will be paid for it, but all these profits do not go into some kind of waste, but they always go into the fact that we can then implement common-sense projects with it. And so our organization is financed both through foundations and project funding, but also through the economic sector. Yes, that was to us. How much time

26:55 did I need? Georg: You still had 26 seconds. Anne: Yes! Yes! Georg: First of all, thank you very much. I already get a good mood from the listing of the projects. It is noticeable that this is practically the most common word in your presentation, is we. So basically, this is an incredibly collective affair. The whole project, this wonderful project, the “Demokratie Kiosk”, goes much further. There is a group that keeps working on it, while another group stops there. and the communication then really goes into a democratic formation. I’d now like to move on to another point: What can actually be achieved politically with a good mood? Can people reach their political goals this way? In her new book Werte, Maja Göpel writes that the communication strategy of

27:42 right-wing populists seems to work particularly well when it creates a bad mood. In the end, they are essentially producers of negativity. Can confidence serve as a tool against right-wing extremism and ignorance? Carl? Carl: This question cannot be answered. Georg: Okay, next question. Carl: You can't really say that. You can probably say something about how you deal with information, with the output of this party. But optimism in itself, you can't injects that. And then you see the world differently. Optimism is, as you just said, a strategy. And something completely different would take hold there. We might call that critical thinking in connection with a high mood. And that works out, but with

28:57 optimism that has little to do with it, at least from our point of view, everyone tends to argue from their own perspective, but for us, the connection isn’t as strong as the question implies. Georg: My question is already out there. How can you take care of yourself when you're surrounded by negativity and depression from the outside world? I watch less news. That's why the question was directed to those who have to consume that. I would like to ask this question again to Anne. Can you influence politics with your activities?

29:42 Anne: I'll go back a step to the other question that remained unanswered. I do believe that the media play a very important role in promoting pessimism in society, which of course has an impact on the political climate. Funny enough, I just saw a chart showing how often the word split has been used in the last 20 years in the media. And it's going up exponentially. And again and again the topic is, we're experiencing social split. But maybe we're only experiencing it because this word is being used so exponentially. It's just an impulse. I don't know if that's the case, but that's something I experience as well. And what was the second part of the question? What is our work against that?

30:25 Right? Georg: Yes. Anne: Of course, as an organization, we cannot influence the political climate in Germany as a whole. And that's always what you have to see, that your own impact is perhaps also limited. And I see mine on Frankfurt am Main currently limited, or let's say the Rhein-Main area maybe. Can I still achieve that with my project? Maybe it even has an impact on society as a whole, because people see this project and think, Wow, cool, you can do something like that too. So maybe we have a role of a pioneer there, I don't know, Of course, we will do an effect analysis at the end and see what we have really achieved with the project. But what we can already achieve locally is that people come

31:37 into contact with each other, who otherwise would not have come into contact with each other. So our main topic is with the democracy kiosks. It's not like, oh, come to our kiosk, we'll tell you what the constitution is and how violence is divided. That's not our idea. Our understanding of democratization is to bring people to a table, to have a conversation, and maybe also to express their opinions, which may not even be the same. So maybe it's just to make sure that a person sits at the table who has a completely different opinion, but you notice that he is still a human being. We can still talk to each other. And we have not only noticed a difference, but we have also noticed three similarities.

32:55 And to simply open up spaces where you can experience something like this, that's what we see as the goal of the project. And I think we can definitely achieve that. And whether that solves the problem on a societal level, well, let's be realistic, rather not. But it definitely sets impulses. And I believe that such impulses are exactly what we need, positive impulses in society to go in a direction that is different and that is better in our words. Yes, and we are trying to do that.

33:48 Georg: So Carl, I ask you to be a little more abstract than before. So if you say now, you work with companies, partly with many people, up to 500 people could stand in front of you, and you are trying to make a transformation happen, A transformation from a bad situation to a better situation, in general. Do you see or do you have numbers for how strongly this transformation is being accepted, so to speak? Can you evaluate this or empirically prove it? Or are there any rough estimates for this? You are now talking to 500 people and what happens then?

34:29 Carl: Yes, there are more than rough estimates. I like to get to that right away. What I would like to add when I hear Anne's answer is that the word confidence, whatever you associate it with, either a definition, as we do, or a general feeling, does not fit into this question. But what I can say, and this is something that happens in these democracy kiosks, I don't even know, someone will correct me if I'm wrong with my intuition, is much more what we might call learned optimism. And I mentioned it very briefly, learned optimism is something different than generally believing that it will somehow work. I learned that optimism is a so-called explanatory pattern. And that's what we always do. We all explain our successes and failures. So to speak, so

35:22 was it me or was it luck? And in fact, there are always three questions. If something happens to us, we can ask ourselves, was it the source of success? Was it me or us? Or was it pure coincidence? Or were the others just too stupid? And that's why we accidentally produced great results. The second question is always, was that pure coincidence, is that temporary or can we repeat it, this pattern of success? And the third question is, what else could this have an effect on? Is this an isolated experience or does it have an effect on other areas in my life or in the company or in the team? And these three levels, i.e. the source of success, the stability of success and also the effect of success, Of

36:01 course, there is also a pattern for failure, and there is actually a pessimistic and optimistic pattern. And now, of course, you can go and say, what would it be like if democracy told more about its successes, instead of working on the failures, as it sounds a bit like in this quote from Mrs. Göpel. If we were to combine the narrative of success or a learned narrative of optimism with democracy and society, we would have a completely different story to tell. And to tell such a story in such a kiosk, to really dig, if it worked out, what was it about? Who was the creator of this success? And if it didn't work out, what was it about? And what can we change to make it better for the next time? Then

36:42 we are really in something that is called justified, realistic optimism. You can definitely do something about that, but confidence would be the wrong word for it. And what you asked after that, that is, can you quantify that somehow? Can you write numbers on where people are when we want to change something? You can do that very well. And that is due to another extremely limited model from research. We call it the trans-theoretical model. And there, too, we said, you can't use that term.

37:12 Georg: You said that. I have to explain now. Carl: If you say that three times without error, you get into the psychologist's upper league. And we renamed it and said, let's call it the momentum map, because it generates momentum, i.e. movement. And it consists of five phases, and that's something different from the typical change curve, because there are five, let's say, psychological foundations through which people move when they do something new. And the first phase is the, yes, yes, I've heard of it, but I'm not interested, but it doesn't affect me either. That's phase one. And then there's phase two, where people say, yes, I've heard of it, and it actually affects me too, and I have to be honest, but I don't really

37:57 trust myself. You're very ambivalent about it. At first it's totally unintentional, here you're a bit ambivalent. The third phase is, yes, we should do it. But that's very much aimed at the future, and that's like, at some point I'll do sports, and then I'll get a step counter, But I'm starting slowly now. I bought motion tracker. And we're not there yet.

38:20 And the fourth phase is the one where we say, yes, I'll do it. Have I seen how it works with someone else? I'm doing self-reflection now too. And phase five, these are people, when you address them, here, something new , transformations, say, I'll do it anyway, no one has ever asked me. And these five phases, to answer your question, can be empirically proven. 40% of people in a group who are confronted with something new or a change are in phase 1. 35% on average are in phase 2 and another 15% in phase 3. And if you calculate that well, you are at about 90% who are far ahead of any action at all. And only 10% are either already doing it or are already doing it anyway, without being asked for it

39:00 beforehand. And that's why this discourse, which is at the very beginning, stands for this does not concern me, does not interest me, such an important area, to shape it correctly and then, secondly, to encourage people to jump over this ambivalence and these worries to jump over and say, I'll do it now and then really get into action to at least get to level 4. But it turns out, and that is now completely independent of whether it is a change in the company, or it is a personal health change, it even goes as far as the physical behaviour of an operating nurse studies, because of course they are always a bit bent forward, due to the nature of the matter, because the operating body is in front of

39:37 them and they tried to explain to him, it's totally harmful for the back. He said, yes, but it also hurts like hell. But they didn't do anything about it. They said, yes, you can't change anything. And then you really worked in studies with this model, with this momentum map, and could really empirically show how they move through these phases, towards a behavioural change. Because this model comes from psychology, approximately 60 million dollars have been invested in research aimed at confirming or refining it. But these numbers are quite well known and they are to a certain extent for the general public.

40:09 Georg: Yes, I think we're coming to an end. Now I would like to ask both of you again, Anne and Carl, what else you would have liked to say before I ask you a final question. Do you have anything else you would like to say? Anne: Yes, of course I would have liked to talk to you forever about this “Demokratie Kiosk”-Project. But, yes, I don't know, I would just like to say that I am really looking forward to this project next year.

40:32 And I would like to warmly invite all the people who hear this to come to our “Demokratie Kiosk” and see what we are doing there. We have just received applications from over 60 artists who want to carry out their own actions at these kiosks. About performances, it should be rapped, it should be printed, it should be drawn. Everything around democracy and this topic. I think it will be a great colourful program. And we're just looking forward to all the people who come there, who support it and who see it and, yes, we're just looking forward to next year.

41:00 Georg: Carl, what else would you like to say? Carl: Yes, I don't know, so what can't you say about it when you've been researching for 20 years? But one thing just popped into my head and that's what we didn't even mention, the motives. Why does a person do this? With what goal does he go to the election? Or not? Does he elect this party or that one? This is not demographic research and Allensbach and so on, but for us it is much more the question of how we can understand what drives him. And as a final anecdote to show why this is so important, not to dismiss it as a joke, this Behavioural Science Unit in London, was activated at a certain point in time. The English government said, we have so many house owners so in England, it is much

41:30 more common for a person to own half of their house than to rent it, as we have here in Germany, and if we allow them to isolate their attic, then we have really done something for energy costs and sustainability. And then they wrote out this program and there was zero reaction. And they asked themselves, why are we doing this here? It's so interesting and you get the money and everything is there, why doesn't anyone want that? And then they started including these psychologists and they talked to the people and said, what do you think when you hear that?

42:03 Energy costs and damming of the attic. And they said, well, that's quite clear, up there, there's so much junk, until I can isolate it, I have to clear all this junk. And I don't feel like doing that anymore. And then, with that knowledge, they went back to the government departments and said, how about we don't help isolation but it, but removing the junk?

42:17 And then they did that. They did MPRI again in two districts. And look, it works. But you can see that the motifs are so different, that we often fail with the best intentions, not because they don't want to, but because we have focused on the wrong motive. And this is something that drives me very much, especially in relation to people inviting for change. What motive do they actually have, which is, for example, trumpeted by change? And then you would have to find the biggest common denominator to find the positive side of this motive. And then, apparently, such campaigns also have a lot more momentum. But that is what is very close to my heart at the moment, because it also drives us very much in the organization. This finding of motifs.

43:21 Georg: I thought that was an incredibly good cliffhanger. From here to a panel from me, I would also like to participate at some point next year, where you can observe this topic in more detail. I think this example is really good. It's a cross-examination that changes everything. It's basically the same result, only it's communicated in a completely different way. And then something happens. I think the closeness to the people plays a very big role. The knowledge of this question, I don't want to crumble, or something. This is a very concrete example, but it illustrates a very basic topic well.

44:05 Georg: So, what are you looking forward to Anne? Anne: And then there will be a conclusion. Yes, what am I looking forward to? So now in a professional sense, I would say, for the coming year and the whole way that leads us there. So it's exciting and we have a lot to do. There are over 120 events that we organise at the kiosks.

44:25 At the same time, we have an additional 30 events where we go to children's and youth institutions to talk to kids about democracy, with a game plan. So, yes, we're just looking forward to the fuss that's going on there, in the best, In the most positive sense, I would say. We have already found many exciting cooperation partners, super interesting kiosk owners who want to be part of the project. I think it's a great project team. That's why I'm looking forward to the next time. Very nice.

44:51 Georg: Now there is only the conclusion of the show left. What are you looking forward to, Carl? Carl: What am I looking forward to? There are always so many things. I had a little time now, which is sometimes unfair, but actually I am totally looking forward to the coming season. That has two reasons. The first is that I am English. So that means that the coming season is simply my attitude to life, my operating system. If it is really nicely drizzling, then we will bloom. And the second point is, actually this is the season where, psychologically speaking, the spruce separates from the confident wheat. Because it shows that an event from outside, namely bad weather, has nothing to do with the

45:44 reality that takes place in our head. But we are in control of the judgments and opinions we form about what happens outside of us. And this authorship of our own thinking and actions becomes most apparent when we seem to have no choice — like in bad weather. We may not control the situation, but we always have a choice in how we see it. And that's actually what a lot is revolving around in society. Not the event is decisive, but my attitude to the event. And to put that on the test, I look forward to it, every autumn.

46:29 Georg: Yes, thank you very much, you two. It was a wonderful conversation and it actually fulfilled everything I had hoped for, although I still have ten questions here that would completely blow up our broadcast format Ines Wildhage 2 Outro Ines: How does Amnesty motivate you to be brave in the future? We share stories of people, their commitment and the power that each and every one of us can unfold. There are so many great people out there who are bravely fighting for all human rights. Against discrimination, torture, death penalty, climate change, for freedom of expression and assembly, and so on. Amnesty tries to support these people in their commitment and by protecting global awareness of repression and human rights

47:08 violations. Human rights apply to all people from birth. At the moment, however, we see worldwide, also in Germany, that people have hostile forces running rampant from the middle of society. Although they instill hatred and exclusion, and human rights only a few, who are already privileged anyway, want to allow. That's why we have to become even more, even louder and even braver to stand up against it. It depends on every single person. You can achieve positive changes for another person with one click. For a release of worries, better conditions for imprisonment, a fair trial, or for a person to stay alive in the USA, for example, because the death penalty is converted into a prison sentence. How does that work? This is a good example of the letter

48:19 marathon, which starts every year at the end of November. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world sign up for 9 or 10 people whose rights are being violated. They write letters. Yes, exactly. Very old school, very effective. When millions of letters arrive from governments or other people responsible for human rights violations, who demand the protection of individual people, this can be badly ignored.

49:44 In February we often hear about exemptions or other improvements. From the people we work for, we hear again and again how important this international solidarity is for them, to keep their hope and to get through their very difficult situation. In 2015, during the letter marathon, thousands of people demanded the release of Fred Barouma. The youth activist in the Democratic Republic of Congo was in solitary confinement without contact with a lawyer or his family. Fred did not know that thousands of letters from all over the world arrived at the authorities. But he noticed that his conditions of detention had suddenly improved. At some point, a prison guard asked him, Who are you?Why do so many people know you? In the end, the many letters

51:25 contributed to the release of Fred Barouma in August 2016. Amnesty offers many different ways to fight for human rights and to support people like Fred Barouma. His example shows that the world cannot be positively changed by a single person or action. It needs a lot of people who are loud in the first place or quiet and less visible, but whose commitment and solidarity are just as important. This is the same in Germany as in other places.

52:25 Even from something small, we can do something big together, because we are many. It took me about three minutes to sign a petition, but then to experience my own effectiveness, to see that I can contribute with a click that people like Fred Barouma come free. Because I am part of a huge supporter group, my single click shows the effect. This power makes me optimistic.