ESG, Supply Chains & Human Rights: What Every CFO Must Know w/ Tim Nelson

0:00 You know, you can, you can come into someone's world and and see them rescued out of out of slavery, helped out of exploitation, but really that doesn't necessarily bring them freedom. Freedom isn't an event, it's a process. And you have to be willing to enable them to understand what is their God-given calling?

0:20 What are they here to do? What, where do they want to be in life? What, what's their view and vision of life? And I think empowerment is about giving everyone the tools that they need to have and removing any of the obstacles that potentially the trauma that they've been through or the circumstances or horrendous issues of things that they've had to deal with so that they don't become a stumbling block to help them with everything that they want to be. Hi there, are you a professional or business owner teaching investors for sharing big ideas or your presentations just are not keeping up with your vision?

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1:29 Ladies and gentlemen, once again, welcome to the King David's Podcast. And today I've got with me of the VIP watching out of Greater Manchester United Kingdom team. Dawson, how old you team? Lovely to meet you. Oh. Wow, so glad to be on and I'm just so sorry I don't have my shorts on. Feels like a boxing kind of introduction.

2:02 It's good. So wow, we've done the combo sports introduction that is Bruce Brockberg introduction team. It's an honor to welcome you to the England's podcast. You are not just leading an organization, you are leading a global news map. As Chief Executive Officer of All for Justice Enslaved Free Alliance, you have spent nearly two decades confronting one of the darkest realities of our world, human trafficking and bordered slavery across 5 continents.

2:35 Under your leadership, survivor support has expanded by over 40%. Policies have shifted. Corporations have been forced to rethink ethics. Governments have had to lease it. We bring together something rare, operational credibility on the ground and strategic influence in boardrooms. You understand trauma, justice, leadership.

2:58 He has seen procurement risk and systemic change, not as fury, but as huge responsibility. This conversation matters, of course. This is not about charity. It's is about cinematization. Tim Nelson, you are welcome to the Kingdom's podcast. Thank you so much, it's such a privilege to be with you. You're a legend in the world of podcasts, so really appreciate being on.

3:24 Well, thank you very much. You know, at the end of 2025, this podcast was promoted to the global top 2%. You know, it's quite amazing and humbling at the same time being in the top 2% in the world at anything, you know, to have mentioned anything, even if it's, even if you are a top 2% plumber or electrician or you know, handyman in the world.

3:53 You are a legend, you know, and it feels good to be recognized for the great work and the hard work. So recently we were, I was nominated actually for the Black Tech award in the UK and I would appreciate support from every listener and of course every guest and team. Nelson himself at his organization, the, the, the nominations end on the 26th of January.

4:19 It's really, really amazing. 3 categories that is AI champion, our social good award and entrepreneur of the year. So we're blessed, we're grateful. Wow. So coming back to team Nelson, the man of Midland, the legend. Let's talk about your identity, your calling and your leadership foundation. So you have devoted almost 2 decades to this work.

4:44 What moment made this mission personal rather than professional? Well. For me, I was sitting as an advisor to an offshore investment trust. I grew up in an unusual family in Northern Ireland, but I find myself. Northern Ireland, Wow, I've been to Northern Ireland before. I've been to Belfast. Oh man, it's on the giant Causeway. You know, I'd be the tour of the Antrim coast, I'm telling you. Everybody, everybody in their lifetime needs to make the journey to to Northern.

5:12 Absolutely one of the seven natural wonders of nature in the United Kingdom. UNESCO. It's an. Amazing place to come visit and, and everyone we treated well. And if if you're not treated well, just let me know. It's kind of everybody, everybody looks out for everybody in Northern Ireland. But I grew up in an unusual family.

5:31 I came to university in England and study technology and went into banking and from going into banking I was sitting as an advisor to an offshore investment trust and a friend of mine was looking to put a couple of $100 million into high tech stocks back in 2000 and six, 2007, I find myself in Los Angeles with the night spare and a friend of mine who worked for a children's charity at the time brought along a chap who would change my life really and my focus and my intention.

5:59 He was on the phone to Condoleezza Rice, who is working for the Bush administration at the time. Wow, you're Secretary of State? Well, no. He was on the phone to her, who was Secretary of State at the time. Yeah, she was. And she had downgraded India on the human trafficking register. And this, this chap was on the phone telling her that he'd been a Mumbai the week before and seen girls in cages that were being shipped all over India. And I'd never heard of anything like that before. And he turned on to me and said, well, you know, you, you think that you're, you're good and you're helping the community. Maybe you need to do something about this issue. It's not just happening in India. It's happening all over the

6:36 world. And I couldn't shake it. And my wife at the time was heavily pregnant with our first child. I'd bought a piece of land. We were building a house. It was like the most inconvenient time in my world. But a friend of mine, Chris, who ran a car dealership network in the UK, had met four people, Manchester, and we talked together about potentially setting up an organization, which we did in April of 2008.

6:59 And then in November 2008, we managed to gather 5884 people together at Birmingham NEC Arena to tell people about this issue. And that was the launch of Hope for Justice. Well, I think, I think all leadership is personal and leadership comes from a place where you can't lead people with a strength that you don't have yourself because you can't imitate something else that someone else carries.

7:25 If, if you like, if you want to intimidate, if you want to kind of approach a subject and bring real strength, you have to first of all done the work. If you want to be a boxer, like we were talking about earlier, you have to have trained, you have to have developed, You know, you're not going to take someone on unless you've you've, you've done some sparring along the way. And I think for me, leadership is all about your ability to convey an inner commitment that you have. And if you're going to call people higher, which I believe leadership is a mandate on all leadership to do, you have to be willing to press into some of those difficult places. It doesn't by example.

8:07 Yeah, but growth doesn't come in the comfortable. It's discomfort that is the the breeding grind of of growth. And leadership is about helping people through a place of discomfort to get to a place almost like you've painted a picture of the world that you want to live in and enabling people to to fly to that destination, to carry them to that destination, to encourage them to tell them that this is a view of a preferable feature and, and we can all do better.

8:34 And I love, I love quotes, leadership quotes in in terms of helping and driving us on. I think it was Martin Luther King who said the most important thing in life is what you will do for others and others is is a space that isn't in your world a moment. So it enables you to go further and to grow the remit, the strength, the the, the kind of experience that you've got into a world of discomfort to enable others to help move forward. But but for me, leadership is all about my responsibility that I carry to enable others to live in a world that they've only imagined.

9:15 Absolutely, you know leadership by example is very, very important and it's also essential to get out of your comfort zone if you are going to standard chance to achieve anything great in life. You know the best in the world are the best in the world for visa. Times of peace breeds weak men and times of war builds raised men. So you choose, you know, when you describe yourself as a passionate leader and you're all about empowerment and growth. What does empowerment really look like for someone who has survived exploitation?

9:56 I think for for those people who've been through exploitation, that the first thing is to try and help acknowledge what has happened to them was wrong and to try and build a system to enable them to live the life that they want to have. You know, you can, you can come into someone's world and and see them rescued out of out of slavery, helped out of exploitation, but really that doesn't necessarily bring them freedom.

10:24 Freedom isn't an event, it's a process. And you have to be willing to enable them to understand what is their God-given call and what are they here to do? What, where do they want to be in life? What, what's their view and vision of life? And I think empowerment is about giving everyone the tools that they need to have and removing any of the obstacles that potentially the trauma that they've been through or the circumstances or horrendous issues of things that they've had to deal with so that they don't become a stumbling block to help them with everything that they want to be.

10:57 Interesting, So what internality split has kept you resilient in a field that exposes you to so much human? Pain well, for me, I'm a Christian and I believe God calls each one of us to do unique things and to walk a journey that he has pre planned for us. And I, I think for me, the resilience come that comes from a place of maybe my upbringing, maybe my understanding of the family I've been brought up in, but to never give up, to never be in a space where you will will circumstances to to be a barrier from you going through some some circumstances you deal with. It feels like the handle is on the other side and you don't have an opportunity to open a door as you go through it. You, you need someone either to

11:42 open a door on the other side or you need to smash your way through that door. And I think if you, I come into this with the kind of internal view that what we're trying to do at ending modern day slavery and exploitation is, is kind of incredible but possible. But a lot of people greet us with, with what we're trying to do is impossible.

12:04 And we turn, we choose to greet impossible with the words that Muhammad Ali said, that impossible is just a big word thrown around by small minded men who find it easier to live in a world they've been given than the power they have to change it. That impossible is nothing. Impossible is possible. Not possible as a dare.

12:20 Yeah. So we dare to believe that we can live in a different world. So I think it's that internal drive to believe that I will not settle while there are men, women and children that need our help. We need to go after the least, the last and the last. We need to help them at every possible level. We need to go after released the last and the last.

12:41 I love that you know many people believe slavery is history, but from your experience, how present is modern day slavery in today's world? Yeah, well, the estimates are by the ILO that there are somewhere in the region of 49.6 million people enslaved somewhere across the world and that there's a definition that comes through the Palermo Protocol but effectively means that there are more people now than have ever been in human history. The estimates have gone up by nearly 10 million over the last 10 years.

13:15 Of those people that are estimated to be in modern day slavery, the the sizable amount that most people be aware of within sexual exploitation. Alongside that, those individuals who are forced to work in homes as domestic slaves, but the biggest amount that we see internationally are also held within the supply chains of major multinational businesses working in many cases given little or no pay to produce goods and services that are sold both nationally and internationally. So where are most people, most prong or most naive about how trafficking actually?

13:51 Works well. At its very core, trafficking is when a vulnerable person meets a promise and they are tricked. So the vulnerability could be poverty, the vulnerability could be migration. Someone could have moved to an area where they don't know anything, or it could be language skills. They maybe don't speak the language, so they're more vulnerable to be exploited.

14:14 Could be that they've got a mental health issue or they've been abused or traumatized at a younger age, but whatever that vulnerability is, a trafficker promises a better future. Someone comes alongside that person and says, I know we can get you a job where you can earn more money and we'll we'll take care of this and maybe you're unemployed at the moment.

14:34 Maybe you're not being paid that great of some. Oh, we'll get you to a different country where you can earn a lot of money. And obviously that person has aspirations in life to want to live a different way and, and therefore that, that promise that they're given has hope and expectation. But when they get to that job, they, they quite quickly realized that that promise, they were tricked. And for many, whether it's they, they get brought into sexual exploitation or domestic servitude or labor exploitation, it's horrendous.

15:02 And we've been able to help a significant number of individuals globally through our program. Just this last year, we helped just over 155,000 individuals across all of our program. And the the sizable understanding that we have is how much poverty is a key driver in the ability for traffickers to prey on vulnerable people and offer that promise and deceive them.

15:26 So are you able to explain how expectation hides inside everyday systems like recruit man logistics, supply chain, hospitality and manufacturing? Yeah. So I give you. I give you a. Case that we worked on back in 2015, we had an organization that we trained to spot the signs, they find 2 victims the week after our training that we give them of individuals that were being exploited. We developed the intelligence and by the time that case came to court, Operation Fort in the West Midlands and over 400 Polish trafficking victims.

16:01 And why Operation Fort was quite unique was because they were able to bring people the serious and organized crime unit that was on this was effectively embedded some of their traffickers within a recruitment company. And the companies that they were working for had no idea that these individuals were being exploited and that money was being taken from them, that they were being forced and beaten to, to work in these spaces that they were washing in canals.

16:30 And many had been threatened that they would be killed. It's it's, it's never fully aware. And and that's just one window. It can happen in agricultural settings where people are brought in as migrant workers and paid little or no pay or quite often in the same way as my in agricultural. You see it in the care industry where individuals promise to get them a job and then tell them that there's a debt that needs to be paid back for getting them into the country or getting them into that job.

16:57 And the rates are so high and the interest rate, it kind of means that they will never be able to pay off that debt. And the majority, if not all of their wages are taken to be paying back this debt. So effectively as bonded labour, trafficked and not able to leave. We see across every scenario, whether it be in the kind of building sector or in logistics where wherever people are being used or abused, it's, it's the same premise that the trafficker holds either a level of ability to, to force that person to give over finance or they control the bank account that the money is paid into. But it's it's defined by the primer protocol on the basis of the ACT, the means and the purpose and, and through that, those individuals are then

17:41 trafficked. It's, it's sad, but interesting. And you must have been traumatized by a lot of shock, right? And trauma from the activities that go on in this space. What would you say shocked you or had the highest shock impact? What surprised you the most when you first started working directly in the space?

18:04 I think I think the reality of how hard life is for some people was initially my first view. I had no idea that people were were forced in this way against their will. But I think the stories that impact me the most are sometimes not the most shocking because the most shocking stories seem so far away from me. They're not necessarily connected to my world. One of the most shocking stories that I had that connected with me was actually the story of an 8 year old girl. And at the time, whenever I heard this story, my daughter was 8 years old at the time.

18:38 And you know I. Heard these. My daughter in every single oh wow. My birthday's April. It's a reality for, come on, the reality for this little girl. Yeah. Well, the reality of this little girl was that she explained when we, we ask all, all of the survivors what they're grateful for, because when you focus on gratitude, you can't stay in a place of exploitation. You, your mind shifts into what you're grateful for. And this little 8 year old girl in Phnom Penh in Cambodia that we were working with had put on her form that she was grateful that she got to sleep in a dry bed. Her story was not unique but her mum fell into hard times. Her father had passed away.

19:22 Sure her Mama got remarried but the father had run away. They had 15 children to try and support. The mum was trying to make money by doing recite, picking up the plastic bottles or aluminium cans to get recycled. But this little girl was being sold from man to man at the age of 8. And I think for me, connecting into a story like that, because it connected directly into my world as an 8 year old child being put to bed where I'm, you know, doing prayers and tucking her in at night.

19:52 I'm thinking of that little 8 year old girl who's living a very different life. And I think those stories and the horrendous things that people have been through. Sometimes it's just the odd things that connect to you, the the moments where you know, like we'd we'd one of our amazing survivors that we rescued in the early days and.

20:10 She tried to jump out of a first floor window, broke her leg and the trafficker pulled her up by the hair and put her back on the bed for the next man to come in. The, the lack of humanity, the brutality traffickers that we hear of who use recent photographs of family members back in a country where they come from to, to leverage manipulation and coercion is, is horrendous. Because that leaves people in a space being thinking that if I do run away from this horrendous situation, someone who I love and care from could end up being killed. And the, the traffickers quite often have the means and capability to do that because of serious and organized crime. But it's it's also that they really do not care about the humanity of individuals.

20:53 They're all about the bottom line, profit and what this will drive. And we see that girls time and time again are sold as prostitutes against their will, that the demand is so high for prostitution across the countries that there are not the girls who want to go into it. So it leads to exploitation and and you know, these individuals lives and hopes and dreams are, are, are cruelly shattered.

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22:39 And with over 7000 reviews and a 4.5 Trustpowder, Breeding Better Help is a platform you can rely on. So if you feel like you'd benefit from talking to a therapist, visit betterhelp.com/kingdames. That's betterhelp.com/kingdames to get 10% off your first month of therapy. Once again, this is a paid partnership with Betterhelp and I encourage you to take that first step. If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best investment you can make these in yourself. What does the average citizen need to understand about the role of power, vulnerability and economics and trafficking wells? Well, I think the average person in the world seems so far removed from this going on in their average every day, you know, they go to the shop and

23:37 they buy goods and services. They they go to the supermarket and pick up groceries. We all do that on a regular basis, but how often do we truly think about the world in which those individuals who made the products are having to live? And you know, when when we hear of stories of companies that are willfully exploiting people to make profit, not paying minimum wage, those people living in horrendous cramped conditions in many countries across the world, it starts to it starts to make you go, why do? Why don't people?

24:09 Realize and wake up to this issue and most of it is an what I would sort call an income uncomfortable truth where people are still want the goods and services as cheap as they possibly care and don't care about the individuals who are involved in making them. In fact, in the UK where I am today, if you want to buy tuna fish, the government insist upon you down to the can that you buy, finding out whether or not that tuna was caught by an individual rod or caught through a net. It tells you the the date that they were caught to the vessel they were caught on, but there's no evidence and understanding of who was on that fishing vessel.

24:50 So we care more about the fish than we do about the person. And we see internationally, in many countries across the world, there is more money given to charities that care for animals than there are to charities that care for people. And that's where I see that we need to see a shift in society.

25:07 Do we need a reformation in society where people will care for their fellow man and they will, they will speak out for the weak, the poorer, the marginalized and the oppressed. They will want to make a bigger difference in the lives of everyday people. And they will care about where that car is coming from or goods and services.

25:23 Like if I give you an example, there's a product that women use primarily for the shimmer effect on makeup. It's the same product that's used in the pearlescent effect on vehicles that you buy. And it's the same product that's used primarily in electric cabling insulation. It's a product called mica. And mica is mined in two regions of India and one region in Madagascar.

25:47 But mica is mined primarily by 5 and 6 year old children. So when when you buy the car or want that effect on your car, or when you buy the makeup that gives you the shimmer effect, people are not telling you that, but they're willfully allowing that exploitation to happen. And I think it's, it's our, it's our turn and our time to step up as a generation that should see an end to this, that this should not happen.

26:12 No man, woman, or child should be exploited for the benefit of someone else. Men, women, and children should have their hopes and dreams fulfilled in life and not exploited. But it takes a generation to be shaken from the slumber that they find themselves in. It takes a generation to want to stand up and speak out for what's really important. You know you are getting into the territory of business operations, ESG that is environmental, so social and governance risk and of course corporate responsibility and accountability.

26:48 Your work involves advising multinational corporations and modern day slavery risks. So why is the private sector essentially in solving this crisis? Well, I think most businesses are driven by profit. You know that the majority of businesses across the world have been created because the bottom line, yeah, the bottom line, that's what they they need to drive.

27:11 And you know, when we see ESG, a large portion of ESG is around climate initiatives that have been launched by companies across the world. But most of the climate initiatives lead to an increase in exploitation. So if you if you talk about solar panels, people want to put solar panels on their homes and on businesses to reduce the carbon effect of of energy production.

27:34 But the essential component within solar panels is polysilicate. Effectively, you take silicon, you heat it to 1500°C and it becomes polysilicate. It's the active ingredient. The majority of the world's polysilicate is produced in Xinjiang in China, and it's produced by forced labor with the Uyghurs.

27:52 If you take the production of wind technology, it requires components which are being made through slave labor. If you take the electrification of cars, the cobalt mining that's happening in the DRC, or the tantalum mining that's happening both in the DRC and in other countries internationally, it's all being done through artisanal mine and slave labor.

28:12 And what we're saying is that for us to live in a better world where there isn't this issue of climate, we shouldn't have to get there on the backs of individuals being exploited. And I, I think as we've worked with multinational businesses, we currently have a membership scheme which we, we, we run through Slave Free Alliance and we've got 120 major multinationals on board, including eighteen of the FTSE 100. These are companies that are doing the absolute best they can to eradicate modern day slavery from their business, but also through their supply chain.

28:43 And we want them to be exonerated in this space. We want them to be lifted up as companies that we should buy from goods and services because they are, they're wanting to change the world that they live in. There's still so many companies that don't care that turn a blind eye. That is all about profit because the shareholders are asking for a drive in profit because the CE OS bonus is paid on a three-year basis of profit and share price movement that then off the back of it, they will cut corners and they will that will inevitably lead to exploitation.

29:17 For the majority of those companies that do cut corners and lead to exploitation, it's done knowingly. They know that what is happening. And I think as well as us calling for the average person to want to do something different, we need to be willing to sit around the table and have an uncomfortable conversation with people in power, whether that be in businesses or with politicians, whether that be with people who are decision makers in processes where they could do something differently.

29:45 But it it takes them to understand the importance of the position that they sit in within the the arc of of human history, which definitely bends towards seeing less exploitation and more around human rights. You know, these important topics you were touching on actually cuts across the boundaries of branches of mutual or shared experiences that yourself and myself have. I have that unique privilege of having served in the NGO space, working with the Catholic Leading Services, being on the Global Fund for Malaria grant of serving humanitarian developmental projects in Nigeria. You know, with the Knights of the USUSAIDSFHR deal and Melinda Gates Foundation and seen the amazing work that these non governmental organizations and

30:47 charitable organizations, not profit, not-for-profit organizations are doing in the third world countries. It's super, super amazing. And the impact, it is difficult to quantify because it's a thankless job, because you are not motivated by profit. But the CEOs, their pay packages, their premiteration, their incentives are driven by the price ending ratio of the private entities that they work for, you know, and the money that is available to tackle anti human trafficking is immaterial compared to the profits that have been earned. We were fortunate to have the CEO of the American Club a feedback on the podcast last year, reminding the public about the importance of this very, very difficult mountain you guys are trying to climb in this

31:50 industry. What are most businesses still getting wrong when it comes to ethical supply teams? Well, definitely. And I would celebrate Matt and everything that Matt Friedman has done through the Mekong Club. But you know, we we don't see other people working in our space as competitors. We see them as our team. We stand to shoulder together because of that fight. Yeah, it's almost like a David and Goliath fight. So we need all of the team pulling together in the same direction.

32:20 I think that the key thing for me is around compassionate capitalism because capitalism has done so much to drive people out of poverty. But the the problem with unfettered capitalism, without rules and regulations that would safeguard individuals, you, you end up with exploitation coming through. And I'm not Keynesian in my approach. I I believe that capitalism itself needs guardrails enabling everyone.

32:46 You read my mind, You read my mind. Yeah, well, it's nobody should be competing on human rights. And we've got organizations like in the UK, we've got a group called Utilities Against Slavery, where we have 23 of the largest utilities companies not acting as an oligopoly against trade, but actually so that everyone agrees that no one's going to compete on human rights.

33:06 And then whenever you're working in that field, if you say had 2% of someone's supply chain by coming together, maybe you've got 30 or 40% of people supply chain by pulling together so you can leverage change for the good in individuals. And that's the bit where sometimes people miss because when we're speaking with major multinational companies, they tell us that what they want is a standardized approach.

33:31 They want governments to agree and have the same approach internationally because if you have, I don't know, 50 countries and they're all operating very differently, The costs to that business are significant. Whereas if we can all agree what the definitions are and what needs to be done, then quite quickly it moves to them finding a response.

33:51 So an example would be we partner and have an amazing partnership with Exiger. Their supply chain kind of visibility software go much further than that and broader than that through the Exiger system. But it gives visibility now for companies to be able to put in their supply chain or put in their bill of materials and see right down to the factory where those goods were produced.

34:14 And it can produce red flags for people to investigate within their supply chain. But still so few companies are willing to lift the stone and look to see what's under it because for fear that actually they become aware of how widely exposed they are to exploitation. Now our our position is to encourage as many people as possible to get the right tools, systems and processes so that their companies can become a fortress to modern slavery.

34:40 So it it, it has no binds or ability to find a way into their supply chain or into their business. But as far as where I'm seeing things going wrong, most of it is because there is a fear from a political world that by bringing on board additional rules and responsibilities, that that will be a weakness or a stumbling block for those businesses. The way I see it is suddenly you get a standard approach. And that standard approach means that no one will compete on human rights and that they can all benefit from the scale that that brings.

35:15 Amelia wanted to host a webinar, but the the tool couldn't deliver. Zooming out, she turned to Webinar Key, an expert solution for webinars. With seamless setup and intuitive design, she delivered the perfect webinar. Webinar Key Host Webinars. Like a boss. Wow, so from a private sector perspective, what does genuine corporate responsibility or corporate social responsibilities CSR look like beyond just the PR statements? So.

35:50 So you get a. Lot of companies that in our sector who would send out supply chain questionnaires to their suppliers, which are a variably, you know, and 20 to 50 questions that they're going to ask specifically about the business practice of their suppliers. And they, they might align that with a code of conduct. They might bring forward a kind of sense of questions so that they can have some level of plausible deniability that something is happening within their supply chain. In reality, when you send a questionnaire to someone, how many times are they likely to tell you they have a problem? The most wouldn't because they'd be fearful of that their business was going to be cut or they would shift production somewhere else.

36:30 So a lot of the time when we see companies, it's it's going beyond the audit process. It's going to a point and a view where there is almost a presupposition if they're doing it well, that modern slavery is happening. We just need to find it. And if you're able to partner in that way with companies, then you can effectively be a trusted friend to come alongside them and help them with their CSR strategy to help do what we would call gap analysis to try and pinpoint where the problems are within their business.

37:02 And it might be around contracting, or it could be within their actual business itself. It could be the the people who clean their offices or who take away their waste. It could be within their supply chain or it could be much further up within the the kind of full ecosystem of supply that they have.

37:20 But I think the importance is to say that if if someone's going to take CSR strategy properly and address it fully, then the issue of modern day slavery is right at the center of that because it is the the people who are involved in their business and seeing them as stakeholders rather than as distant kind of connectors to what they do. It's interesting that the terminology that you utilize, the stakeholders, you know, it's very important for a business to care about the welfare of not just the shareholders, but of course the stakeholders.

37:56 And that is the spirit of ESG reporting. That is what ESG reporting is trying to achieve. But in the current world of business of commerce, do you think that ESG is becoming a true force or change? Or is it just a box you can exercise in many organizations? I I think it's. Different in every organization.

38:23 I think when we've gone into every different business you, you realize that it's not standardized. People do business differently. So some people centralized processing and and and procurement, others devolve that at a localized level, some some bring additional roles and responsibilities, checking processes along along the purchasing and and buying habits that they have, but.

38:47 I think ESG itself. Still has a legacy that it can be significant within businesses. I think sometimes it gets a bad Rep because it gets aligned with maybe a woke scenario of people who are doing things that don't really matter or people put it into a box of going, well, that's a nice to have, but not a must have.

39:09 And I think from from my perspective, I see that the benefit of companies who lean into this is they actually engage their employees much more in a, in a subjective bite of a care and support. The companies who are willing to invest into this see a much greater return on their investment because the the ability to look into your supply chain and understand it gives you a much better understanding of how your business functions and runs.

39:35 It tells you where your choke points are or potential vulnerability. So by a understanding who makes your products or where the products are coming from, you're able to build resilience into your company. You're able to mitigate what could be your biggest risks on your risk register. There's the significant opportunities that people have. I think the problem that we sometimes see is politicians will take terms and they will, they will somehow weaponize those terms.

40:04 And use them as a as a hammer to hit over the head of people that they don't agree with. And yet for me, the benefit for companies to say, how much do you care about the environment? How much do you care about the individuals who are involved in your business and your, your stakeholder agreement?

40:20 How much do you care about governance? Because by caring about these things, you build a business that is built to last long term. Still, so many companies don't land last more than one generation. We'd love to see many more companies thinking with a long term mindset. And you know, I sometimes think about the people who built the cathedrals across Europe.

40:44 Sometimes it took nearly 400 years for some of those cathedrals to be built. So you're effectively saying the person who laid the first foundation would never get to see it fulfilled. But they had joy and they had passion about the. Legacy. They were laying, yeah. And you stand on the shoulders of the people who've come before you.

41:03 And therefore, when you celebrate, you celebrate not just what you've done, but celebrate what a company could have done long term in this issue. And there are those companies out there that are year after year are doing incredible things to address this issue and then still others that are willfully neglecting their responsibility and the reality of the impact that they bring to the lives of those individuals who are involved within their business or across all of their supply chain.

41:32 You know, Speaking of cathedrals, I very much appreciate 2 pieces of architecture in Europe. That is the cathedrals and the castles. You know, I was in Lithuania and outside the Junior's Cathedral. It is an amazing work of art, architecture, ingredients. I don't know if you've ever been to juniors or counters in Lithuania. Amazing place because castles in Northern Ireland. Yeah, I've been to the Carafega, it's castle and not. Come on, you've been to Cara Fergus Hassle, John. I think John de Corsi built that one back. A long time ago, I've been to the Cardiff Castle in Wales. I've been to the castle in Dublin. Yeah, right.

42:21 And of course I've been to a couple of castles in England as well, you know, England's England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Dublin. It's really amazing to see the solid structure and you see how the structures are going to stand the test of time. And in the world of audits, being an ex auditor, an ex BIG4 auditor, PWCKPMG myself, that's something we won't be saying the word of audit.

42:48 If it was not documented, it was not done. And you see enshrined in the culture at the tradition of those castles. That's the oratory and you know, written that documentary of the history of the castles are well maintained. It's it's super, super, super amazing. So if every CEO and listen to this podcast right now, we're to implement just three principles from your work. What change immediately for them? Well, I think I think you're right. I, I, I'm always amazed by history and growing up where I did the, the history and and understanding why things ended up the way that they did.

43:35 The ability to see cathedrals, castles built. That would be not just standing the test of time, but that would pro provide protection for so many individuals is. Kind of probably where I would start, I think. I think. One of the first principles that CEOs need to think about is that I think, you know, growing up where I did and umm, living in the world that I did, seeing cathedrals and castles being built, castles did stand the test of time, but they were there to protect the people because there was a sense of overarming, overwhelming understanding that they wanted to have the community there for a long time. They didn't want to be influenced by people internationally.

44:14 So they wanted to make sure that they would protect their people locally from an international threat. And in many occasions we saw how the Vikings came in or the Normans or whoever it would be that would that would invade and looking to to press their their their views on the world and and change the culture of the the entirety of the UKI think in the same way we see this need for companies to see that long term, they need to protect the individual business that they have. You know, there are companies in the UK. Where one news report went out about modern. Day slavery in their business on a Sunday, and by the Tuesday they'd lost 2 billion of their share price, which they still have not regained.

44:58 And that's because it's not just a threat to the people who are within that exploitation. It's a threat to the public image that they have within their business. Investors will not want to invest in. Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the principles is to think about, and this is so front and center to most CE OS that I speak to, they pour over their risk register.

45:23 They are desperate about trying to get mitigation strategies in terms of what they're doing. I would say one of them is a run protection. By approaching this subject, it enables you to protect your business. And to protect your supply chain. The second part of it is I think it requires people to invest.

45:40 There is a need for people to not see something always as a. Cost. But an investment and when you start to see the benefit can be because companies like Tony's Chocaloni have come out very lightly about the impact that they are making around trying to find. Issues of modern day slavery across their supply chain.

46:00 They've highlighted it. They've talked about the importance of caring. For all of those people as stakeholders within their process. And that that then changes that. Cut on your budget from being a cost to an investment. And I think if, if companies think about, you know, the, the reality of what they need to do protect, they also need to think about their investments.

46:22 And the third thing that I, I would ask of CEOs is that they would care because when ACEO cares about something, it shifts the entire business if they're people always say that whatever you focus on develops if you focus. Your camera on a certain. Area, it will develop a picture into that area. If a focus from ACEO is given to this area, then somehow you will see the business like a big tanker would change direction and it might only be a couple of degrees of direction of the changes.

46:53 But if you set off a tanker from the West Coast of Ireland to America, you're only 1° off. By the time you reach America, you will be 1000 miles off your destination. And I suppose what I would say of CE OS is that they need to have their focus and intention on this issue in a way that they're not divesting it to someone at a lower level within the business to carry that responsibility.

47:16 Because when something goes wrong, if they aren't holding that responsibility, then it leads to what is commonly known as swoop and poop leadership, where they end up going into that area and having to go all over those individuals. To. Try and deal and address with what the issue is. I'm saying no, take the responsibility. So if you're going to protect your business, if you're going to invest your business in this, in this. Area, but the third.

47:40 Thing that CEOs need to do is they need to focus on this. They need to get an understanding and awareness because once people have that awareness, awareness leads to action. And it might not be that their business is wholly complicit in what is happening, but maybe by just asking some questions of their supply chains, maybe by encouraging their management team or their executive team to address this issue that leads to massive changes in the lives of ordinary people and, and and sees their world change for the better. Wow.

48:11 So that is such a great way to say agree to an uncomfortable question. What are the uncomfortable truths about capitalism and global supply chains that we are still avoiding today? There are many, I think the first. One is that capitalism see legislation potentially as a hindrance rather than it being a protection. I think there there needs to be far more of an awareness in capitalism that it is the power of a free market with rules and regulations that lead to a thriving society. That you don't get to a thriving society just from a free market. You need to have checks and balances. There needs to be, needs to be a kind of an approach that is taken where we welcome legislation coming in not as another hurdle to be jumped

49:09 over, but so that we all don't run off the edge of the Cliff together. And I think the the biggest uncomfortable truth is that most businesses don't welcome legislation. Most businesses run from legislation. If they could avoid it, they they would do definitely. The second area that I think around capitalism is around that there are levers on in different businesses to try and address this issue.

49:35 One of them is within in banks. You know banks are are used by many big businesses internationally to process funds from the worker that they do. But banks also invest and give loans and overdraft facilities to businesses for the work that they do. Banks can do more to address this issue. By directly encouraging people to address the the risks and the the issues that they have within their business. The second one that is linked to that is insurance. Insurance companies provide insurance for the work that businesses do.

50:11 You know, if you if you don't have a bank account, you can go down the road and get another one. But if an insurance company blocks you from getting insurance, your business is over. There are roles within banks and insurance companies that they can do more. To address this issue. And then the third one, I would, I would say is around investors.

50:30 Investors need to invest not just based on returns. They need to see the whole ecosystem that they're investing into and know that whenever they call for change, CEOs and executives sit up and take notice. Because if an investor says, hey, I'm not going to invest unless you change and the number is big enough, those companies will change. I think with the maybe the way the. Capitalism to save the tune.

50:59 You have very much the tune. Very much, but I think that the with the way that capitalism is set up, not enough time is given at universities where people are studying or training courses or leadership studies that people are given to show the importance of the role that they have within society.

51:17 Society heard it once said that society thrives when men plant trees that they they'll never have the ability to sit under the shade of. I think society thrives whenever CE OS plant and do the work that is. Required to effectively protect. People, irrespective of whether they're going to be long term in that business or not, they've built the protections that brought the people in, that brought the systems and processes in that would change the way that their business would see this issue.

51:47 And that is the uncomfortable truth that we, we, we do like cheap products, goods and services. We want to we want to get a deal. We want to get a bargain when we're getting that new shirt or. That. Pair of headphones or whatever it is, we don't, we don't ever think about the things that come from, from the reality of the purchase that we make or that we might be complicit in some of the exploitation of individuals because we wanted those cheap products.

52:13 So I'd, I'd encourage any business that that is listening or any person who from a business listening that they would, they would also start to ask some uncomfortable questions about what they're doing and and ways in which they could do it better. So from a personal leadership and our inner architecture standpoint, who makes as the leader? You know, I am a member of the School of Mentors that is the world's largest online community of entrepreneurs and every mentor has a mentor.

52:48 So who is that mentor to you, the leader who is expected to hold everyone else accountable? Yeah, I have a number of mentors and I've had over the years. I think up until he retired, I was being mentored by Pat Gelsinger, the global CEO of Intel, and alongside that, Rich Divini. Rich was the head of Delta Force for the Navy Seals.

53:10 And both men carry a level of leadership and understanding. But I lean in and learn from a number of individuals and I take every day as a school day. I can always be learning. I can always be leaning in. You know, the books that you're reading, the impact that you're making. I'll I'll show you from the. Floor the latest.

53:28 Book that I'm reading at the moment, The World of Work to 2030, a book, amazing book by Russell Beck. But I believe that you can learn a lot from individuals who can speak directly into your life beyond books. And I think you have to have a level of vulnerability and honesty that you're prepared to go into and know that you're not the essential font. I would say this of all of our team as well. No one of us is smarter than all of us collectively, and therefore somebody else pours into you. They can give you a level of wisdom, understanding, but also a check in in who you are and what you can do. Absolutely.

54:07 You know, upward and downward. Quebec is very, very essential. Speaking of Russell's, have you ever heard of a guy called Russell Bronson? Sorry, do you want to repeat it? I didn't hear that clearly. Have you ever heard of a guy called Russell Brunted? Russell Brunton. No, it's not a name that I'm familiar.

54:26 Bronson Bronson Just like our The Virgin Atlantic guy, Richard Bronson about. Richard. Bronson, yeah, OK, OK, interesting. But there there is another guy who is making a lot of impact his his name is Russell Bronson. You should check him out. OK, Absolutely. So Speaking of the legacy, what message would you want every policy maker you know and captures of industry and educators to take away from this episode with you? I think from the words of Maximus Aurelius, from the words of Gladiator, that that what we do in this life echoes in eternity.

55:11 And I think you you've taken a message like this and you realize that it's an uncomfortable position for legislators, for business people, because most don't want to hear about what's happening to people who are being brutally abused and kind of enslaved. Most don't want to hear about what's going on. So I would want them to realize that what they do matters kinds way beyond their life into the lives of many other people who are yet to live.

55:36 Because if you change one person's trajectory, you potentially change everybody who comes through them internationally. And that we can live in a world free from slavery, that we can genuinely live in a world that would be different. But it just takes people to live for others and live in a way that's not focused so much on themselves, but about what they can do to help those people that are needing their help. Absolutely.

56:03 So I'm going to take you to the quick fire round. It's five questions fast. That's all the billion. So Are you ready to rumble? I'm on Let's make it happen. Let's go. So our number one name a book that set your leadership style. At the Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. Interested in that twice #2 name one truth about power most people avoid.

56:34 That power without checks and balances can. Lead to the destruction of individuals, businesses and countries. The checks and balances are there for power so that it can be focused but not destructive. An example would be a laser can be be used to cut things effectively, but it can also be used as a destructive tool to to destroy in battle and therefore we need to be clear about what power is and about how we can use it more effectively.

57:09 That's two. Do you have 1/3? Let's say power corrupt and absolute power curbs absolutely. So what is 1 habit that every leader should? The habit of being able to be interrupted. I think most leaders leaders can close the door and not want to have people in their business as involved as stakeholders in a process. But I think the best, best leaders are able to speak last and listen first, to be interrupted and to enable people that they don't agree with to sit around the same table. Because I've never learned anything from someone I really agree with.

57:52 I've only let learned things, new ways of doing things, new approaches from people I disagree with or people I don't have the same level of alignment with. So let's have some uncomfortable conversations in places with people where I'm willing to be disrupted for the benefit of the overall organization. Being a lifelong student and that what is 1 dangerous myth about human trafficking that everyone should know. The myth is that it's happening in just Southeast Asia, when actually it's happening all over the world. It's happening in cities across the US, across the UK, in where you are in South Africa, across the the world that we're starting to see that it happens in cities and times. In plain sight interest, in fact

58:39 so. What is one word you want survivors to reclaim as their identity? One word that survivors claim is their identity. Yeah, you would want them to reclaim as their identity. That they are heard because so often traffickers will silence the individuals that their voice cannot carry. But when your voice is heard, then you are remembered and your name is known. And it takes you from being a commodity that someone uses to a friend, a person that you connect with, to a person that you do business with.

59:13 It takes you to being a real person. So rather than a human doing, you become a human being. You'll notice a number. You or matter you are important. Wow, wow, this is something I always love to see that an attitude of gratitude is good attitude. And when a person says the time with you, they share their life with you because the SI unit for measuring life is time.

59:42 So for me, to you, it's love and massive respect to you. I thank you very much for your time to be on The Kingdom's podcast and Diana's CFO. Would you like to give a shout out to anyone before you believe that? What would be your closing statement? Yeah, I just thanked. I'd like to thank. All of our team who are involved across the world making the biggest difference to try and address this issue.

1:00:05 I'd like to thank those people who enable us to do what we do by giving to us. Those people who support us and get behind us. Those people who go on our website and dig into what we're doing. Those people who are politicians who are prepared to step up and and bring bring forward great policies.

1:00:23 Businesses that will get involved with Slavery Alliance, I'd like to thank all of those people who are also in the sector and doing their part, standing shoulder to shoulder with us to make the biggest difference because we truly believe that one day we can live in a world free from slavery. Absolutely. And of course, massive thank you to you Team Nelson for your time today on the podcast.

1:00:45 And of course, we'll the massive positive impact that you achieve by we are the work that you do. It is actually very, very important and see the audience conceive belief, strive to thrive and achieve. Always go for something in your lives and till I come your way next time, stay out of trouble, be responsible and of course, fight the good.

1:01:10 Fight me. It's goodbye. And of course, from Team Nelson, it is goodbye.