Bonus: Real Evil in Rock ‘n’ Roll. Is There Any?

Hey Discos, need a little more Disgraceland in your life? Just a touch to get you through?

Yeah, me too.

This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome to Disgraceland, the after party. Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode, a little thing we like to call the after party. This is the show after the show, the party after the party, the bridge to get you from one full episode of Disgraceland to the other, the backyard to dig into the dirt. Our mission to uncover the truth, to confront the myth, to reclaim the story. On this bonus episode, on the heels of our Alice Cooper story, we're discussing true evil in rock and roll history. Venoms, Kronos just died, and are there any real Satanists left in rock and roll?

We're here to answer that question and also to get into, you know, were there any to begin with? We don't know. Plus, which artists from music history have had the greatest second acts? We get into the music that has inspired and confronted your faith with your emails, comments, DMs, and as always, a whole lot of Rosie. This is the podcast for the musically obsessed, the outsiders, the independent thinkers who know that the best history is the history that gets buried in Disgraceland is where I tell the stories you'll end up telling someone else. All right, Discos, let's get into it.

All right, Discos, welcome into the after party. I've got good and evil on the mind this week, just like I did last week. It's partly thematic. It's partly because of the subjects we're discussing here in Disgraceland, talking about Alice Cooper this week, talking about Tim Lambesis from As I Lay Dying the week before. It's also Halloween, so I'm watching American Horror Story. I just read The Exorcist, re-read it, I should say. I'm kind of watching The Exorcist again, low-key in the background. So I've got good and evil on the brain. And when I think about Alice Cooper this week's episode subject, obviously a musician who dealt with dark themes. Some might even say the occult, but I would challenge that. Alice Cooper... a quote-unquote shock rocker,

and then you have somebody like Tim Lambesis, who's a quote-unquote Christian metal artist. You got Alice Cooper, who's dealing with these dark themes, and who I mentioned last week, I believe, is an actual Christian. You got Tim Lambesis, who proclaims to be a Christian and a metalhead, and he's not. He's a charlatan. So there's an interesting dynamic here at play between the two of these guys, and we've got them back to back this week. Another thing that has me think of this is I sat down and I opened up my paper on Sunday, and I want to read you this headline. Conrad Lamp, pusher of heavy metal to its darkest demonic reaches, 63. Reaches, 63.

That's not the point. The point is this is Kronos. This is from the New York Times, Sunday's New York Times. This is Kronos from the band Venom. died dead at the age of 63. Venom, known as the band that kind of started it all when it comes to all of the heavy metal offshoots. Black metal, death metal, speed metal, thrash.

Venom is kind of the big bang. And unlike Slayer and Metallica and Exodus and Overkill and Unlike the black metal bands that came after Venom, black metal is actually named after a Venom song. The genre is named after a Venom song. That's how influential Venom was. Unlike these other artists that I just mentioned from the sort of metal subgenres, Venom professed to have a real love of Satan. Now, what I'm trying to figure out is, do I believe that?

It's funny. I talked about this in the rap party with Zeth. When Venom were making their way over to America, all the New York hardcore kids and the artsy avant-garde New York scene got hip to them. I'm talking about very young Beastie Boys and very young Thurston Moore. And they didn't know what to make of them. They kind of thought that they were like a like ironic about what they were doing, about their heavy metal. And then of course they show up to play in New Jersey or New York or wherever for the first time. And Mike D from the Beasties and Thurston Moore and those guys are like, holy shit, these guys are serious. So Venom the band has this weird kind of dichotomy in and of itself where you're kind of like, what the fuck?

This is real? It's so over the top that it's hard to take serious. But this is from the New York Times obituary on Kronos. It says, while bands like Black Sabbath and Motley Crue occasionally invoked Lucifer in their lyrics, Venom summoned the devil so often that he might as well have been sitting in on keyboards. A core text for the group was the Satanic Bible by the Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey. Goes on to say, this is a quote from Kronos, says, we take it very seriously, Mr.

Lance said of the dark arts in a 1982 interview. Now, I don't know, as I said, that I believe Kronos and Venom. Here's what I want to understand. How many of these artists, these musicians, these rock stars who dabbled in in Satan and the dark arts and the occult thematically with their music, who were protested by the sort of moral majority at the time. It doesn't really exist anymore, but you know what I'm talking about, the Tipper Gores of the world and the evangelical preachers and all the people in the 80s and 90s who were getting their panties in a bunch over rock and roll. And they were protesting certain artists. Venom was on the Filthy 15 list, Tipper Gore's original list, along with Prince's, Darwin, Nicki, and

a bunch of other ones. who among those metal acts or any sort of rock and roll band that dabbled, again, with Satanism and the dark arts, who among them were serious? I'm asking this question because as I think about it, I don't think any of them were serious. Even Venom, though I'm not sure about Venom. They may have been the only one. It deserves further research. But this thing is interesting to unpack right now. And what I'm talking about is like, The subject matter here in Disgrace Line gets incredibly dark, especially the Rewind episodes we have coming this week with ACDC. The first one on Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker. That's kind of what started my thinking along these lines years ago. This guy, this killer, this

serial killer was the definition of evil, of an evil person, like Hitler-level evil. He obviously didn't have the stats that Hitler put up. But his darkness came from a similar place. He was a really, really fucked up evil individual. And when you look at, again, the protestations of the moral majority around rock and roll and so-called Satanists and heavy metal...

they're coming at this from the point of view that somebody like Kronos here or somebody like Ozzy Osbourne or Alice Cooper is on the same level with somebody like Richard Ramirez. They worry that that's where this is all going. And that's another argument in and of itself. But I'm more interested in looking at which among these artists from music history have actually been evil. So let's unpack it.

The black metal guys, that's where my head goes first, right? Varg Vikernes and Euronymous and Dead and all those guys. I can go through each one of them and tell you why I don't think they were actually evil, despite the evil that they did, okay? I know that's a very nuanced way of looking at it. But Varg Vikernes, despite his modern day, current racist, fucking fascist, whatever Viking shit that he's up to, I don't believe he's a Satanist.

That's my point. He may be evil for other reasons, but I don't believe he is an evil Satanist. Ozzy Osbourne, hell no. He was a Christian. Alice Cooper, we've already established this Christian. Look at Slayer. When I first heard Slayer, without knowing anything about them, if you told me these guys were actual Satanists, I would have believed you. But then you unpack it a little bit and you understand, no, they're just commenting on this darkness from world history. And Tom Araya, I mentioned this last week, Tom Araya is a Catholic. Kirk and Rob from Metallica, I'm pretty sure they're Christians. So all of these guys, not actually evil.

All of these musicians. Let's put Kronos from Venom aside. We still don't know. I don't know. And again, I'm qualifying evil. I'm trying to get at this question. Are any of the satanic dark arts musicians actually evil? Actually what people say they are? Now, of course, there's evil musicians from music history. I just wrote, what, 7,000 words on Jared Leto last week. And if what they say about Jared Leto, I know he's an actor, but he's a rock star as well. 30 Seconds to Mars is a massive band, if you're not paying attention. I wasn't paying attention. Huge band. If what they're saying about Jared Leto is true, it is truly fucking evil. It is truly dark what Reggie Watts is accused of having done

to his No. deceased ex-girlfriend. There's a long list of musicians, especially in Disgraceland. Big Lurch, Michael Allig, who we had in the archive in the rewind slot last week. I knew Michael Allig a little bit. I got to know him a little bit at the end of his life. I had a couple phone conversations with him. I had an ongoing text thread going with him. Did some truly evil shit. Really horrific. The worst possible things you could imagine.

But was he staying up at night making sacrifices with goats? And I know they're two different things. and I know I'm kind of conflating them here, but I'm trying to get at this question of like, are any of these guys from music history who have been accused of Satanism and of the dark arts, are any of them evil? And, you know, I just feel like when I read this, when I read this New York Times obituary on Kronos, you know, New York Times is a fairly buttoned up organization.

And it's, This is a half-page obituary. They don't actually say whether they believe that Kronos' satanic affinity is real. They don't actually go there. They quote him, but again, that quote's from 1982. Dude died at 63 years old in 2026.

Okay?

You know? And the band has to uphold a certain image. I get that. What was the guy doing in his spare time? Is he actually practicing the dark arts? And it made me think, if I were a dark arts musician, if I were an actual Satanist, if I truly cared about putting evil into the world, the opposite of what I actually care about, would I be out there on my front foot talking about it? Or would I be working behind the scenes? Like, I don't know, someone like perhaps Jimmy Page. No, I'm kidding. Kind of. I don't know.

It's that whole thing about the devil, you know? What is it? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people believe that he didn't exist. What's that from? It's that Kevin Spacey movie, Usual Suspects. You know, that was kind of my Jimmy Page take when I got into the research on Jimmy Page. But I want to know.

Because I don't think the Kronos guy was actually an evil Satanist. I don't. I think they dabbled in it for image. They dabbled in it to have a sort of niche to sell records, however you want to frame it. You want to be that cynical about it. I don't believe, obviously, that Alice Cooper was into all the shit that they were worried he was into. I don't believe the same can be said about, I don't believe Slayer were Satanists or even the black metal guys. They're fucked up, sure, clearly, completely fucked up. And all of them, dead, Euronymous, Varg, they all had different reasons for doing the things, the truly horrific things that they did. But I don't think, again, I don't think Varg Vikunis is sitting up at night

making sacrifices to Lucifer. I think he's up at night making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for his kids to take to school tomorrow, like the rest of us. So the question remains, are there any musicians from music history who are True Satanists. Truly evil.

Okay?

If you know of any, I want to hear about it. 617-906-6638. Voicemail and text. It's Halloween. We still got a couple weeks left. We'll continue this conversation next week. Our Rewind episodes coming in the feed this weekend on ACDC thematically are going to work really well with this question. For the reasons I mentioned before. I started thinking about this.

I've been thinking about it the last few days. And when I woke up this morning, I knew that it was what I was going to bring to the after party today to talk to you all about. And I texted Zeth. And I sort of flipped the question and put it more in the realm of Hollywood. Are there any filmmakers, Kenneth Anger, who else? These guys perhaps from Europe from the 1960s. Any filmmakers who are truly evil?

Any films, besides the obvious possessed films like the whole poltergeist thing, I think Creepshow is another one. Any other films we don't know about that were truly demonic portals that had been opened where horrific things happened to those involved? And again, I'm not talking about filmmakers here necessarily who were just bad dudes, Roman Polanski, et cetera. I'm talking about satanic filmmakers, okay?

Yeah.

That's what we're going to get into in the exclusive section of today's after party. Go to disgrace and pod.com to sign up, to become an after party member, to hear that conversation and to unlock ad free listening as well. Okay. Alice Cooper in the feed this week, coming up this weekend, as mentioned, ACDC parts one and part two. I love these episodes cause I fucking love ACDC man. And, um, Like I said, the sort of Richard Ramirez Night Stalker piece.

This is our first episode on ACDC. Fascinating story. Really get into the darkness of this guy and how it related to ACDC's music and the treatment they got from the media, which was completely insane. Probably my favorite music from any episode. This and the Miles Davis episodes are– I love the music. Jay-Z as well. This one though, just really demonic music. I was super inspired by that World War I movie, All Quiet on the Western Front, that I had seen. And we actually used that to inform the music in this episode, along with some Giorgio Moroder and some sort of dark horror movie stuff. Really proud of the music in the ACDC Part 1 episode.

Part 2 is a little bit different. It deals with Phil Rudd's He troubles the sort of hired hitman stuff that happened later in the career of ACDC and gets into the murder of their manager as well. Really interesting. Really dives into Malcolm's point of view a little more fully in part two. I think you're going to dig that as well. Anyways, those are coming up this weekend.

Next week, our episode on Reggie Watts. Can you believe it? Is that true? Is that when that's happening? I have to double check. Hold on one second. Let's see here. Going to my little future programming doc here. Hold on. Stay with me. Stay with me, guys. Yeah, Reggie Watts, October 25th. God, it's already the end of October. This Reggie Watts episode is a banger. It's one of my favorite new episodes that we've done in the last few years.

The Reggie Watts story is completely fucked up, guys. Mainly because it's one of these stories where the guy presents himself as one thing, and if what they say about him is true, he is completely something else. And the accusations around him and the death of his ex-girlfriend, recent ex-girlfriend, It came out in Rolling Stone. We get into that.

I do it all through the point of view of Reggie's memoir, his autobiography. There's a lot of quotes in that Rolling Stone expose that came out from people who were friends of Catherine McCullough, Reggie Watts' ex-girlfriend. I've also had people who know Reggie Watts quite well reach out to me and just unsolicited offer me up information about this dude. You know, drugs and psychedelia are at the core of this story. So is sort of another theme is the sort of Gen X 90s of it all.

And it's all made extra compelling by the fact that, you know, whatever you think of this incident with Reggie Watts and Catherine McCullough, you cannot deny the fact that Reggie Watts, his talent is through the roof and he is sort of a singular type of entertainer. From the history of entertainment. So this is a fascinating story and I'm really proud of the way it came together. I'm proud of the work that the team did here. All of us on the audio and the video side. Yes, the video side. More on that later. But Reggie Watts is coming up next week and I can't wait for you to hear that. But like I said, Alice Cooper. Now, a lot of rock stars checked themselves into rehab. Alice Cooper checked himself into an insane asylum instead. At first,

he was just trying to get sober. But as he got to know the other patients in the asylum, he realized that the hospital is full of characters whose stories were stranger than fiction. And he knew that he could use this to his advantage. There was one dude in there who talked incessantly about his dog. There was an L.A.

socialite who seemed determined to destroy her own life. A Vietnam vet was haunted by the men that he killed. Alice Cooper, writer that he is, he documented it all. He carried a pen and paper everywhere that he went in the asylum, even into the padded cell. Not because he'd been sent there or anything, but because it was a quiet place where he could write lyrics. And that's what he was doing. He was putting together his next record.

The result was From the Inside, a concept album built around the lives of the patients that Alice had encountered inside that asylum. all made possible by his unorthodox decision to get sober in there. So that is some of what's in the Alice Cooper episode for you guys this week. If you have not heard it, I highly recommend you do so. Also going to get into his battle with a demon. All right. Who doesn't like that in the Halloween season? That's top of your feed right now. And like I said, come up next in your feed right after that. In the rewind slot, we've got two ACDC episodes. Now, 1985, there was a serial killer. He was out in Los Angeles and he left his ACDC hat at the scene of the murder that he had just committed. ACDC was

not only your favorite band, it was also the serial killer's favorite band as well. The killer believed that Satan spoke to him through ACDC's songs. He listened to Highway to Hell. He recited the lyrics to Night Prowler. as he was hunting his victims. He was soundtracking his murders with ACDC, quite literally. The killer was Richard Ramirez, aka the Night Stalker. But the connection between ACDC and the Night Stalker went way beyond music. Now, on the cover of Highway to Hell, you can see Bon Scott in that iconic photo. He's wearing a pentagram around his neck.

Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, he carved a pentagram into one of the victim's bodies. He painted a pentagram in blood on another victim's wall, and he carved a pentagram into the palm of his own hand. And when the media discovered the connection between the killer and the band because of this hat, ACDC was held at fault by the press for supposedly influencing the Night Stalker murders. The press, as is often the case, was being foolish and more concerned with crafting a scary narrative to sell newspapers. than they were in telling the truth. Now, the truth was that ACDC was just one of the greatest rock and roll bands on the planet. Lots of people loved their music, even serial killers. Yes, but the truth did not matter.

The narrative is what mattered to the media. The media coverage transformed the Night Stalker, Richard Ramirez, who kind of looked like ACDC's former and recently deceased singer, Bon Scott. The media coverage transformed Richard Ramirez into a kind of demonic rock star. Women wrote to him, pledging their love to him. They sent him nudes. They hung around the courtroom trying to get a glimpse of him while he was on trial. For a moment, the courtroom stage there, it allowed Richard Ramirez to fill the void left by Bon Scott and the Night Stalker had become the rock star, at least figuratively speaking. So perhaps, as Bon Scott sang in 1977, hell ain't a bad place to be. To hear the full ACDC story and the connection to Richard Ramirez,

you got to listen to the Rewind episodes this weekend, people.

All right?

Get in there. Now, is Reggie Watts the dude your mother warned you and your sister about? That's what we're trying to figure out next week in the Reggie Watts episode. I don't know. You like me? You got sisters? Or perhaps you're not like me at all, or you are, but you're a woman. And my mom was always, I can just remember her warning my sisters constantly, stay away from this dude, stay away from that dude. And that's what made me, that's sort of the lens that I look at this Reggie Watts story because he presents so differently.

Is Reggie Watts the dude your mother warned you and or your sister about? Reggie Watts presents himself as the oversized teddy bear whose absurdist comedy and music skyrocketed him to Comedy Bang Bang fame and then to become the band leader on James Corden's Late Late Show. As I mentioned before, though, there are those who accuse him of pushing his ex-girlfriend, Catherine McCullough, into heavy drug use and then eventually abandoning her during a mental health crisis that they believe led to her suicide. Now, Reggie Watts is a Gen X kid, okay? Like me, like a lot of you. He grew up worshiping John Hughes films. You can read about that in his autobiography, in his memoir.

On the surface, Reggie Watts is lovable, okay? Like Ferris Bueller, like Ducky. But I want to know, is he more like The Breakfast Club's Johnny Bender? John Bender. I call him Johnny Bender. I believe his actual character name is John Bender. You know who I'm talking about. The bad dude. The one that your mom warned you about. But perhaps, as we unpack in this episode, he's more like a different 80s character. A different, complex, sinister character from the 1980s.

We're going to unpack the dark past of Reggie Watts and the accusations against him in this upcoming episode of Disgraceland coming next week. I cannot wait. for you to hear that. And that's going to be our question of the week for next week as well. And you're listening to the episode. I want to know, what do you think?

Is Reggie Watts the dude your mom warned you and or your sister about? Or do we have it wrong? Do his accusers have it wrong? Do we got it all wrong with this guy? Do I have it all wrong? I think you can tell which way I'm leaning. Anyways, we're going to get into all that. Check it out. All right, guys, I'm going to take a quick break.

back after this with some exciting news and also going to get into your DMs, your phone calls, your text, your voice messages, emails, all that coming up right after this. All right, guys, we are back. And I am psyched this week because we, all of us, we won three Signal Awards. All right. The Signal Awards are a big deal in the podcast industry. Don't ask me why. They just are. That's what people tell me. And this shit matters.

Matters for a lot of reasons. Mostly, it matters because you love this show. You show up for the show every week. And the show has been recognized not just by industry peers, the judges, all that, but also by the listeners, by you guys. We won three awards. We took home the gold for best music podcast, the show, Obama's Higher Ground Company, their limited series on Fela Kuti.

They won for limited series. We won for best show, which is huge. Took home the gold. We also got listener's choice in that category, which means we not only won the gold, which was an award given by the judges, but You guys showed up and you voted and we won the Listener's Choice Award for Best Music Podcast as well, which people tell me who are in the know that that's an even bigger deal. Feels like it because you guys are involved. Finally, we won the silver for best writing for the Patti Smith episode that I wrote and that the team here at Double Elves put together. And I look at it more as just a recognition of our writing in general, mine and Zeth's. Zeth has written some incredible episodes of Disgraceland. I recorded one yesterday on

Karen Carpenter that I cannot wait for you to hear. He's got a new one on Buddy Holly as well that is fucking great. The whole team here, we work our ass off on this show every week. Matt Bowden, Sean Cahalan, Jamie. runs operations. My dad does research for us. All of us here, Ryan Spraker helps out with the music from time to time. And it feels great. I almost forgot to mention Brett, our associate producer here. Just been awesome. It's been awesome this week to get this recognition.

Because on the one hand, you could be like, oh, stop blowing smoke up your own ass. And I clearly am blowing smoke up my own ass and the team's ass right now. But it's also You guys know what it's like. You get your head so far into something, man. You're so in it that it's hard to detach and to actually go, look at what we're doing here. Look at what we've made and look at how people are enjoying it. And, you know, it doesn't happen. And these things kind of help us take a moment and recognize what we're making, how much we love making it, how grateful we are for you guys and for our partners at Exactly Right, our new partners at Exactly Right and iHeart.

who have helped this whole thing grow even more over the last year and brought in all these new listeners. Thank you all. Appreciate you. Three Signal Awards. Pretty awesome. Now, you know what else is awesome? Your phone calls, your texts, your DMs, your voicemails. Let's get into them, shall we? Listen, quick note on the phone calls and the voicemails and the texts. We do this question of the week. And oftentimes...

I record these after-party episodes right on the heels of the new episode coming out. So oftentimes, you guys haven't even heard the new episode before I'm recording this after-party. So the question of the week that was asked last week often doesn't sort of generate the responses we want until the week after. And I just say, fuck all that.

Who cares? Let's just talk about whatever. Obviously, answer the question of the week. Call me. leave a voicemail, send me a text, 617-906-6638. But I'm going to be less interested in answering these things in sequential order, episodically or whatever. We just had this open conversation about music history and true crime, and we're going to foster that, okay? Question of the week, answer of the week, by all means, hit me up, but hit me up about anything and we'll get to it, okay? Nothing is off topic is my point. Now, this week, I asked in relation to Alice Cooper, who's had one of the greatest second acts In rock and roll. So this call, this answer comes from Tony in the 206.

Jake, hey, what's up, man? Tony from the 206. Good to hear from you. To answer your question, about who has had the greatest second act, I definitely think that if Kanye stays on the route that he is now, he could definitely make that comeback. Now, will he, you know, be the darling that everybody knew and loved? Perhaps his last album was good. But I think the person that had a great second act that honestly gets overlooked just because of his legacy and everything he contributed is Prince.

And let me break it down. You see, Prince's last, like, number one hit song was from the Diamond and Pearl era. And one of his last albums that was on the billboards in the 90s was the Emancipations album after his acrimonious split from Warner Brothers. From that point on up until about 2004, he would put out music and do tours, but you never really heard about him. That wasn't until 2004 when he put out Musicology, which was considered to be his big comeback album, and an amazing album that was.

It won him, like, two Grammys, and it ended up giving him his most successful tour, the Musicology tour. It was actually called his most successful tour since Purple Rain. So that's why I think it really had a good second comeback that a lot of people kind of overlook. But, yeah, that's just my take on it. Let me know what you think of that. Always good to hear from you.

Rock and roll us.

Tony, I love this. I love this because it's one of those things that I never would have thought of. And you know, you're absolutely right. And the other thing I would add to what you said here about Prince is that Prince also after musicology, after that era, he sort of had become this, his cultural status had grown, had become much more of sort of a beloved icon.

Not that he wasn't always a beloved pop star. He was, but he kind of had this mythic thing that had set in that wasn't truly there before. Great, great answer. Love it. Thank you. Let's go to the 508 on As I Lay Dying.

Hey, Jake. Mike from the 508. It's been a while since I've talked to you directly. So the As I Lay Dying episode, it really got me to thinking, I wonder if you could do an episode on Shlomo Karabach. He provided a lot of the tunes that are absolutely the backbone of Jewish liturgy, you know, like Shabbat morning services and holidays. And the thing is, though, you know, when he was around, he was, like, really friendly with everybody, except apparently he was really handsy with the women and girls there. I don't know if he actually raped anyone, but I know there was a lot, a lot of sexual harassment. So, worth looking into.

Okay, thanks.

Rock and roll. Okay, Mike, so we're talking about the guy responsible for creating a lot of the music at the core of Jewish liturgy. I believe that's what you're saying. And I wonder, though, what era are we talking about here? Where is the time period? This is interesting to me. I need to know more, Mike. 617-906-6638. Voicemail and text.

Hit me back. Give me a little more info on this guy. And spell out his name for me, too, if you can. Hit me on text so I can do a little research. All right. Let's check out the 9-2-0.

Greetings, fellow discos. This is Evermore, down low, in the 920, talking about George Lynch, you know. And many great artists, you don't have to like everything they do.

I like George Lynch, but most of his shit, I don't even understand.

And getting to.

Another fantastic artist that I love is Trent Reznor.

I love most of his shit, but I don't love everything.

Later.

Yo, Evermore, George Lynch... From Dokken? Is that what you're talking about? The guitar player? Right? Are you bringing him up because his daughter dated one of the guys in As I Lay Dying? Is that what you're doing? Are you being real cheeky? Trying to drop some knowledge on me? Trying to sneak one by the goalie, as they say?

I liked Dokken when they were around-ish. I can't say I purposefully listened to them. I always thought George Lynch was a great guitar player. Are we talking about the same guy Trent Reznor too. Somebody else hit us up about Trent Reznor and having the greatest second act in relation to her Alice Cooper episode. And you know, I don't know much about the fall of Trent Reznor. Speaking of falls, this one comes from Blitz who writes in, Hey Jake, I love your show. I've listened since the beginning out here in Bend, Oregon. Originally from Western New York.

I don't understand how you can think Cobain took his own life. It's just impossible for him to have. If he just shot himself, maybe. If he just overdosed, maybe. But the way he was found, the overall weirdness of the situation, Courtney's behavior at the time, literally how he was found in the first place, a random electrician finding him randomly. It just does an omelet. You can mix it up every which way and how Kirk got to where he was and how staged the scene seemed down to the note. Okay, the note, the note I will give you. The note is sketchy. I'll give you that.

It doesn't compute. Okay. Okay, listen. Blitz, there are a lot of things that don't compute. But when somebody takes their own life, especially a globally recognized pop star, there's going to be things that don't compute. The amount of just eyes on this thing. People are going to find things that aren't there. And so far, what nobody has found is any actual evidence, besides handwriting that may look like somebody else's handwriting, that they haven't found any actual evidence that makes it clear that he did not kill himself.

And I don't care. I read these articles every week. There's a new one in the New York Post yesterday. The New York Post is making a living off of Kurt Cobain clicks. Okay? It ain't happening, guys. It just ain't happening. There's such a thing as circumstantial evidence, and there's such a thing as hard evidence. They're different. And there's a lot of circumstantial evidence here at Kurt Cobain.

But I would contend that's because there's just a lot of eyes that have been on this. When you get so many people looking into something and they can just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, what about this? What about this? I don't really get your point. He was on heroin so he couldn't shoot himself? And I know he took a lot of heroin. I know that. I know that about the situation. I know it was a lot. But still, you got a few moments.

You know what I'm saying? You guys are further compelling me into the Kurt Cobain, Courtney Love rabbit hole. Every week, every week, 205 writes in a bit more on the minor cheap trick reference from last week. I also remembered Mike Damone in Fast Times singing the Dream Police. So I looked up the scene on YouTube. Damone actually referenced three cheap trick songs in a row. I Want You to Want Me, the Dream Police, and then Surrender. So, Zeth, and Chris from Chicago were each remembering different parts of the same spiel. The girl Damone is pitching the tickets to said that's kid stuff, which reminded me that I actually first saw Cheap Trick on the ABC Sunday morning show Kids Are People Too when I was around seven

years old. Patrick in the 205. I remember Kids Are People Too, vaguely. I can't imagine Cheap Trick being considered a kids band, though. That's fucking wild. All right, bringing it back to last week's As I Lay Dying episode. This one comes from the 207 via text. Hey, Jake, I haven't written to you before, but I felt compelled to share my thoughts on the As I Lay Dying episode.

Growing up, I was exposed to a wide variety of Christian music, and although I haven't closely followed the Christian music scene in recent years, I was deeply shocked when the news broke in 2025 that Michael Tate, a prominent member of the renowned Christian band DC Talk, was accused of grooming and sexually assaulting three men, It was reported that his drug use and abusive behavior were allegedly the biggest open secret in Christian music. Somebody else wrote me about this. As I'm reading this, I'm kind of like, did I read this already? But I did not. But somebody else mentioned this to me last week. I'm going to go on to continue this text. 207 continues here.

I was also reminded of John Steingard from the Christian pop rock band Hawk Nelson, who publicly announced in 2020 that he no longer believed in God. Both of these stories raise questions about authenticity and accountability in Christian music. These artists aren't just entertainers. They're often seen as role models and representatives of the faith itself. And that status can create strong incentives to maintain their image, whether by concealing a loss of faith or allowing misconduct to go unchallenged to protect someone's reputation. I'm curious to know how often the desire to preserve that image comes at the expense of honesty, accountability, and the very values these artists claim to represent. Well, right there, I have an answer.

I believe it happens a lot. 207 goes on to say, I really appreciate the stories you tell because I think many people believe that being a rock star is glamorous, but the reality shows that it's often far from that. Keep up the amazing show that you're doing. You got it, 207. Thank you so much. And you're right. Rock stardom does seem glamorous. And I think about this a lot now because if I'm being honest, I quite like my life.

I'm very blessed. I'm very grateful to live the life that I live. My family brings me tremendous joy every day. My kids blow my fucking mind. And we're in a great season of our family life right now that is completely consumed by my kids' activities and, a lot of sort of the fun early stuff when you're a young couple without kids. That's sort of not what this is about right now, but still it is absolutely incredible. And every week I'm reading about these rock stars. Right now I'm reading about Mary Lou, excuse me, Marianne Faithfull and her time uh, sort of caught up in the whole steam of the Rolling Stones, uh, swinging London era. And it was a time that I, that I, that I used to romanticize, you know, I would have, there's a

time in my life when I would have given anything to trade places with Keith Richards or Mick Jagger. But as I read this now, fuck no, man, just God, no, absolutely not. I don't think I've read, yeah, I've read a couple, you know, Alex James from Blur, his book. There's a couple autobiographies from rock stars where they make being a rock star seem really, truly great. I'm trying to think of one that marries rock stardom with family life.

And I don't know that that quite exists. I'm sure it does. I just can't think of it offhand. But we do romanticize this stuff. And the further away I get from that, the less romantic it seems. And the further I get into the research here, obviously, the less romantic it seems. You talk about here, 207, you say, I'm curious to know how often the desire to preserve that image comes at the expense of honesty, accountability, and the very values these artists claim to represent. You're talking about this in the context of faith and religion when it comes to Christian metal. the Christian music scene. But I think that the way you just put that can be put on any musician whose image, and this goes for most of them, their image becomes the thing and

they have to live up to that. No matter what it is, Alice Cooper, shock rock, or even like a hardcore band who's still out there being hard at 60, jumping around on stage, or whatever it is. Whatever the image is, I guess we're not meant to be one thing. We contain multitudes. You know what I'm saying? As it pertains to these Christian guys, it's a whole other thing.

Because faith, I believe, is a very personal thing. And navigating that through fame is quite something else. 617-906-6638, voicemail and text at disgracelandpod, DMs disgracelandpod at gmail.com. We'll be back right after this with more from you. All right, guys, we're back. Thanks for joining us at DisgracelandPod on the socials.

I have to say, all the activity on Instagram lately, it's been pretty overwhelming. That Screaming Jay Hawkins story we told in the podcast, but then we made a little micro version of the kid thing, the 57 kids on Instagram. And holy cow, did that bring in a lot of new listeners. And the comments are fucking hysterical. As I Lay Dying as well, opened us up to some new listeners via the gram. Appreciate you all. Any of you who are into the after party here for the first time, thanks for joining us. You can hit us up on Instagram or any of the other socials as you wish, but you can also call us, 617-906-6638, voicemail and text.

And of course, you can also email us, disgracelandpod at gmail.com. And we're talking about musicians with great second acts. of Alice Cooper. Got this email from Michelle. Michelle writes in, hey Jake, enjoying Disgraceland, listening to every episode. It's a great concept and I learned a lot about many musicians I like and ones I don't and or didn't know much about previously. Here are some musicians that resurrected their careers that came back from the dead. Well, maybe not literally everyone, but here are a few that came to mind.

Iggy Pop, thanks to David Bowie in his time in Berlin. Stevie Nicks, Silver Springs, her jumping off point from Fleetwood Mac. Ozzy Osbourne, after nearly dying in an LA hotel, the Bark at the Moon era. George Harrison. Paul McCartney. Enough said. Roy Orbison. Yeah. Bob Dylan. Okay. ABBA. Don't know about ABBA, but I'm curious. Look forward to hearing from the rest of your audience on this subject. Rock a roll. Michelle. Guys, I'm still taking answers to the question, which artists have had the greatest second acts? Get back to us like Michelle at DisgracelandPod or 617-906-6638. You know I'm here for your Kurt Cobain commentary as well. I see you, Stanley Starbuck.

Thank you for the email. It's a little long. I might respond next week or I might just respond via email. Appreciate it. This email comes from Trey Smith. Subject, Anthony Kiedis. Recently found your podcast and love the content and production. After listening to several episodes, I searched for an episode on Anthony Kiedis. I did hear the River Phoenix episode and would love to hear something on Anthony. His autobiography, Scar Tissue, is pretty wild. Thank you, Trey. It is indeed pretty fucking wild. I've read most of it. And yeah, there's an episode there. I don't quite know how to tell it yet. I don't really know how to present it beside the whole... I mean, his upbringing is pretty fascinating.

His father... The young girl stuff is, God, I got my head too much in that lately with the Jared Leto thing. But Trey, perhaps sometime soon. Definitely sometime soon. Shout out to Sarah Lenga, new Patreon member. Thanks for becoming a member and supporting us, Sarah. Shout out to Christina Staggemeier. Christina, thanks for checking us out on Patreon.

Fran Marks. Coming in at the $ 100 level. Dang, Fran. Appreciate you. If you guys want to become All Access members, you can do so for as little as, gosh, golly, a dollar a month, right? You can become a free member as well. Just kind of snoop around. Or you can support us at various levels. Go to disgracesandpod.com to sign up. You're going to unlock ad-free listening. You're going to unlock exclusive content like the conversation I'm about to have with Zeth right here in the after party. And you're also If you can't get enough of Zeth and I throughout the week, right, in the exclusive section of the After Party or in the Hollywoodland feed where Zeth puts two episodes out per week, the wrap party in

the screening room, plus we have an archive episode that sort of thematically frames the whole week for you, our sort of Hollywood and true crime play over there in the Hollywoodland feed. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. But I'm in there with Zeth and the wrap party giving my recommendations. And if that's not enough for you, and I know it's not, We have our This Film Should Be Played Loud video podcast.

It comes out once a month. And this month being Halloween, we're discussing Shaun of the Dead. Okay, that's coming at you next week. Going to be an all-access member to cop that. Fran, I see you, buddy. This might be your first This Film Should Be Played Loud. Hope you enjoy it. Go to disgracelandpod.com to sign up and support the show. We appreciate all you discos who are supporting us at all access on either Apple Podcasts or Patreon.

Thank you very much.

All right, guys, we are back.

Thank you once again for joining us in the after party. We're coming up on 300 episodes. We're going to hit that 300 episode mark in January or February. I count episodes as fully scripted episodes. I don't count these bonus episodes. They're bonus episodes. 300 scripted episodes, man. That's a fucking lot.

That's a lot. You'll be new here. There's a lot of episodes in the archive on artists from almost every genre from music. Check that out. If you've got any questions on specific artists you're interested in, hit me up.

617-906-6638.

Voicemail and text. at DisgracelandPod on the socials. I can point you in the right direction. Let's recap because I got to get out of here. All right. Number one, this week, our new episode on Alice Cooper is available for you right now in the Rewind slot. Number two in the Rewind slot, our classic episode on ACDC. That's parts one and two. Next, number three, coming up, our new episode on Reggie Watts. And I can't wait for you to hear this. Number four, Zeth gives you those Hollywood and crime vibes in the Hollywoodland feed. So make sure you subscribe. Number five, current This Film Should Be Played Loud video podcast episode on on Shaun of the Dead is coming your way next week. Gross Point Blank

is available for you to watch right now if you haven't already. Number six, 617-906-6638. Your voice keeps us digging into the dark corners of music history, so keep calling, keep texting with your answers to this week's question of the week or with whatever else you want to talk about. Number seven, don't forget discos. This isn't just content. It's a community, a community of the obsessed, and no one cares about music, books, records, and the crime and grime.

It ties them all together like you do, and, well, that's a disgrace. Back on April 6th, 1988, Alice Cooper finally flushes drugs down the toilet. And this is what America was listening to on that day according to the Billboard charts. Number one, Get Out of My Dream. get into my car. Billy Ocean, last week. Three, peak position. One, weeks on chart. Nine, number two, man in the mirror.

Michael Jackson, last week. One, peak position. One, weeks on chart.

Ten, ten.

Number three, out of the blue, Debbie Gibson. Last week, four. Peak position, three. Weeks on chart, 11. Number four, devil inside, in excess. Last week, seven. Peak position, four. Weeks on chart, nine.

Number five. Quit talking and start mixing.

Bonus: Real Evil in Rock ‘n’ Roll. Is There Any?

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