118. They're back! (Swiss and UK re-entry to Erasmus+)

0:02 On behalf of the European Association for International Education, welcome to the EAIE podcast. My name is Laura Rumbley. I'm the EAIE's Director for Knowledge Development and Research, and you're joining us for episode 118 in our series. Thanks for tuning in. This installment is being published just a few weeks after our 2026 annual conference and exhibition, which was held in Glasgow.

0:28 Coincidentally, but very fortuitously, our conference took place in the UK just as the country is gearing up for a much appreciated and much anticipated return to participation in the Erasmus Plus program. In light of this exciting news, made even more momentous by the simultaneous return of Switzerland to the program after 12 years out, we felt it was a perfect moment to touch base with two well-positioned guests who could help us get our heads around how Switzerland and the UK are gearing up for their dive back into Erasmus Plus.

1:02 This led us to our two guests for this episode, Erica Boek and Amanda Cromery. Erica is the Erasmus Plus higher education sector lead for the British Council. And Amanda is head of higher education for Movetia. That's the Swiss National Agency for the Promotion of Exchanges and Mobilities in the Education Sector.

1:22 She's also the director designate for Switzerland's Erasmus Plus National Agency, assuming Switzerland's Parliament approves the agreement reached between the European Commission and the Swiss government to bring Switzerland back into the Erasmus Plus program. We hear more about this parliamentary wrinkle, as well as the opportunities and challenges ahead for both Switzerland and the UK in this episode that we're playfully titling They're Back.

1:50 We hope you enjoyed this timely conversation about the soon-to-be-realized Swiss and UK reentry to Erasmus Plus. Amanda Cramery and Erica Boak, welcome to the EAIE podcast. It's really great to have you both here. So we're starting off our conversation with the best news of the year in some ways, which is that the UK and Switzerland are coming back to Erasmus Plus after a period outside the program.

2:16 This is a really exciting development for a lot of us in the international education community in Europe and beyond. And to get us started, you know, discussing sort of the implications of all of this, I wanted to ask you two things. First of all, what does this return mean to you personally? You're individuals who have been working in this field for some time, you must have some feelings, you know, about what's going on.

2:41 Could you share a little bit about that personal emotion that you have? But then wondering if you could also pull it back out a little bit and give us a sense of your feelings about or your sense of the bigger picture about what's happening here with your two countries returning to Erasmus Plus. Erica, could I start with you with that question?

3:02 Yeah, thanks, Lauren. Thanks for inviting us to do this podcast. It is, as you say, a really momentous time, I think, for for the UK and Switzerland. Um for for me personally, I mean, pure pure delight would be a slight understatement. I um I grew up in France. I'm a linguist, I'm an Erasmus alumna myself.

3:24 Um I was absolutely delighted that this becomes a real opportunity that that opens up fantastic chances for for young people across the UK as well as adults. Um for me, Erasmus and my international kind of mobility placements were the springboard for my international career and and had a very tangible link between them.

3:47 So it's fantastic that that you know coming back into funded partnerships for mobility, but also organizational partnerships is is back um on the radar now for UK universities and um institutions across all six sectors.

4:04 Fantastic. I'm thrilled that you have this personal connection and now living it very closely professionally must be really exciting. Amanda, your feelings and you know reflections kind of on the big picture here.

4:16 Yes, I'm personally very pleased about the Swiss government decision to go back to Erasmus Plus. I was at the beginning of my career in international education, I was in the program, then I was outside the program, and I was building up a parallel scheme. And now to see the way it goes to Erasmus again, I'm very, very pleased.

4:38 And I'm um much more pleased to see that UK and Switzerland are going this time together, and hopefully we can celebrate next year the 40th anniversary of Erasmus Plus, with Switzerland and the UT UK being again part of the big Erasmus Plus family. There is just one little hurdle in Switzerland that we still have to overcome.

5:00 Um, as you know, we like to vote a lot, and so does our parliament. Uh, even when, on a political level, between the European Union and Switzerland, everything is sealed, our parliament still has to approve the Swiss participation to Erasmus Plus, especially for the budget of the Swiss participation.

5:19 This process is going to start in September and end in December, and we are keeping our finger across that the Parliament uh uh will approve the funding and the decision of the Swiss government.

5:32 Excellent. So we'll keep our eyes on that. You wanted to say something else, yes.

5:36 Yes, and if I may add, for me, professionally, would this become also a change, uh uh quite a huge change because I've been designated as the new um national director of the Erasmus Plus agency as of 2027, if everything goes to plan.

5:52 Congratulations on that uh that nomination, and we are we will be watching closely. Thank you. So let's start a little bit then um around the story of from the outside looking in. So the UK and Switzerland were outside of Erasmus Plus for some time. You during that period, new uh mechanisms, new approaches to mobility and cooperation were developed.

6:17 I would be curious, and I'm sure our listeners would be, to get a sense of some of the lessons learned during that period, certainly particular kinds of challenges, perhaps, but also um potentially some advantages. What were some positive things that may have come from this process of not being part of Erasmus?

6:35 Erica, can I come back to you on that one?

6:38 Yeah, so we we actually conducted some research last year looking at uh UK, European higher education partnerships. And while it was clear that our exit from the UK did affect, well, certainly the recruitment of European students to the UK most significantly, there were really positive stories also of creativity and tenacity in terms of how UK and European universities had had kind of found ways against the odds to maintain and keep some of those partnerships going.

7:16 There are um around 16 UK universities that we know of that are part of EU alliances, for example. And and you know, up till now those have, well, during our period outside of Erasmus, that that has been a kind of unfunded um uh contribution from them. But that shows their commitment to um maintaining very real links with with Europe and and the kind of um yeah, the the importance that they attach to that.

7:46 We know that um European uh universities have prioritized the UK for that kind of 20% outbound international mobility part of Erasmus, and we're we're we were you know really grateful to continue those links, and that then creates a much better place to have reciprocal mobility now that we're back in for from next year, to so so that the kind of the return um students from the UK to those countries will will be added to that.

8:16 Um in in terms of positive lessons, there are definitely a lot. So the UK government established the Turing scheme, um which was funding education providers to um have international placements abroad. It was um totally global, it was it was country agnostic. And what that showed was um, or what that helped to bring about was extremely high levels of participation from disadvantaged students, which has helped, I think, to really get um set new norms in the sector around what the the kind of the good practice in in the support that disadvantaged or or less privileged students might need in getting across the line and having a high quality transformational mobility experience.

9:02 The Welsh government also set up TATE, which was an extremely successful and much-loved um, or is an extremely successful, much-loved international learning exchange programme. So, unlike Turing, it was it was two-way um exchanges. And the the TAITHE Secretariat provided a huge amount of um organizational support, particularly for newcomer organizations as well as disadvantaged learners, again helping to establish new ways of working, which have now become really normalized amongst Welsh universities.

9:35 So, for both of those very successful um funding programs, we are very keen to build on that good practice and and work with the sector to take that forward for Erasmus.

9:46 Very interesting to hear about those new norms and new inroads and hopefully the sustaining of those into the future, you know, in in new ways. Very interesting. So, Amanda, those lessons learned uh from the Swiss side of the house, can you tell us a bit there? Yes.

10:02 Well, uh to begin with, I don't think that a multilateral program like Erasmus Plus one is cannot be replaced by a national program. And this wasn't, or in other words, the Swiss European Mobility Program has never been a substitute for the overall Erasmus Plus program. Um also because the Swiss solution was created in in a case of necessity back in 2014, and we never expected to last that long.

10:30 Um and it their primary aim was to maintain mobility between Switzerland and Europe in both in both ways. Um 12 years later, um, but we can draw a few of conclusions of our experience. The first one is that mobility can work outside Erasmus Plus. Um, the SEMP program is not the only program working uh uh this way.

10:54 However, you have to be very well aware, and Erica pointed it out, that reciprocity is essential. So you can either work in bilateral agreements between countries, or you have to ensure the funding for outbound and inbound mobility, as we have done it in the SEM. Um I think one um particular uh element that also um was very successful with our higher education institution was that we were able to simplify everything that wasn't really necessary and so to lower the administrative burden that such program brings with it, especially when you are dealing with outbound flows and inbound flows.

11:42 Um but what we have observed is that our mobility figures didn't develop as much as the mobility flaws of other countries, so especially in Germany or Aussie. So we were a little bit um slower than other ones in developing um the mobility figures. Um and a huge learning is as well that uh when it comes to the cooperation dimension of Erasmus Plus, it can simply not be replaced.

12:15 You can support the participation of institution, but uh in a national way you cannot replace the whole cooperation dimension of Erasmus. And that's also one point that that uh uh led Switzerland and I think UK as well to go back to Erasmus Plus because as an example, how can you replace with a national program an initiative like the European University Initiative?

12:40 It's simply it's simply not visible. But looking back, I believe we made the best possible use of the practic of the political circumstances we faced. We succeeded in safeguarding mobility, um, but we have to catch up uh on all the cooperation dimension of Erasmus Plus.

13:00 Really nice to hear these reflections and understand what you've been through in recent years and what you're taking forward now to this moment. Um, you've mentioned, um, Amanda, administrative workloads. Um, you've mentioned cooperation, you know, that that comes with um effort, you know, to get those things in place and moving.

13:20 Now that you're stepping back into Erasmus Plus, there is work ahead, not only for your own institutions, but for the institutions you'll be partnering with. I'm wondering if you could reflect a little bit on how we you imagine um, you know, frontline professionals really gearing up to engage in this work and the work ahead to really maximize the benefit of renewed participation.

13:42 Amanda, do you have some thoughts about that?

13:46 Well, my advice is simple. Go for it and make it happen. It's a huge opportunity, but we also have to understand that in 2027 for Switzerland, but I think for UK institution as well, will be a year of capacity building. We cannot do everything in one year because we have been missing 12 years of experience.

14:08 Um so it requires some additional effort from the international offices and institutions in Switzerland, but as you said, from overall overall Europe as well. Um the key will be to work together, um, keep things efficient and pragmatic, um, reduce or avoid unnecessary complexity, um, and be flexible and cooperative.

14:32 Um, do not expect that everything will run smoothly with Swiss institutions from day one. Uh, we need to rebuild the knowledge about the Erasmus Plus process, the expertise, um, and so on. And we still also have to finalize the Swiss solution who is running for one more year, so to close that up. So be patient but willing to cooperate with Swiss institutions.

14:58 Very nice. So, Erica, what kind of advice is the British Council giving to frontline professionals as they get ready to dive back in?

15:06 Um, yes, similar to Amanda. So, for for those institutions, whether they're um higher education institutions or FE colleges that have applied for the ECHA charter, we we are encouraging them to you know not wait until the outcome of the ECHA kind of application process is known, but to go ahead now and work really actively with their European and more widely international partners, partners to develop their or update their interinstitutional agreements, their learning agreements, their mobility agreements.

15:40 Um and for those with strong partnerships already in place that feel they're confident that that um you know they can do multiple different types of, for example, Key Action One projects as well as potentially Key Action 220 would would be to really think big and and creatively about Erasmus. Um there is a really big increase in the budget for this program, and we want to be able to utilize and and um absorb for the UK as as much of that as possible to the benefit of UK students and and staff.

16:21 Um for those institutions who might be newcomers and less confident and feeling their way a little bit more and who are maybe just starting to re-establish or establish their European partnerships, what we're encouraging is really to plan for funding in line with you know utilization capacity. So um so to kind of you know suck and see if you like, and and and and and and and build confidence as they go, because that the key thing will be focusing on good quality utilization once the funding is is allocated next year.

16:57 Um and and we are encouraging also just European uh universities to be proactive in reaching out to their UK partners or to new UK institutions with whom they don't yet have partnerships where they feel that there are similar values or there's an overlap in terms of their social value, their outreach, their the size of the institution, their disciplines, um, and and offer support on the Erasmus program.

17:22 I mean, we we've we've we've been out for you know for less less time than the Swiss, but um, but still this is a very well-established program, and we're coming in in the last year. Um, and so yeah, universities will need support to to to upskill on on the new program, on blended intensive programs, on uh virtual mobility, on Key Action 171, um, and and just to do a refresher really on Erasmus.

17:53 And and I think as much as possible, partners are well, universities are interested in kind of efficiency, if you like, in their partnerships. So if they can have some of the same, you know, groups of universities who are partnering with them across both mobility and organizational partnerships, um, building, you know, and and and develop having that overlapping um uh you know complementarity across the two different key actions, that that does um I think make sense.

18:24 Laura, just an additional suggestion, if if I may. Um I would say that it's not only a job for the international offices in Switzerland, but I would suggest to have a more comprehensive approach to Erasmus Plus as a whole institution. Because um in the international offices will be dealing with the new interinstitutional agreement, with the mobility flows, the new contribution, and so on.

18:47 They will have a lot of work to do in 2027. Um, but the real game changer in Erasmus Plus are are the cooperation dimension, and this has to be carrying out by the whole institution in a comprehensive approach and not only um delegating it to the international office. It would be um it it you will not have uh a huge success in Erasmus Plus if you see it only as a job for the international offices.

19:14 Yeah, that's I mean, I really appreciate that wider angle perspective on what's possible and what's at stake, you know, for success there. Um you've mentioned it a little bit, Erica, the idea of being pragmatic, depending on where you are and the uh the resources or capacity that you have in hand. Can we reflect a little bit about expectation management?

19:36 You know, as there's a lot of excitement around this, but of course there's only so much that can be done, you know, at any one moment. Are there any things that we should be um cognizant of in terms of assumptions about what's possible in this new phase? Or how would you, you know, reflect on that idea of expectation management?

19:56 So we we are obviously coming back in uh, you know, the the the the the terms of of the relationship between the UK and Europe is is different now to when we were last in Erasmus. We don't have freedom of movement. Um universities in both directions will have to navigate visa issues um in a way that they didn't last time.

20:18 Although, of course, with Turing and with TATES, you know that there is um a lot of expertise and experience in that regard. But we know it won't be frictionless in the same way that it was before. And um we we we will be seeking to kind of reach out to EU embassies to ask for you know their support, but also EU national agencies to help you know make the process of students going abroad and and securing their visa in a timely way as smooth as possible.

20:52 Um I I think there is a lot of interest, for example, in blended intensive programs. Obviously, it's it's you know it's a group mobility, it's shorter, it might be particularly of interest to students from disadvantaged backgrounds where that might be less of a jump into the dark because they're going with a group of friends or a cohort of students and and they're quite well kind of encadré, if I can use that French word.

21:20 Um I I I think um but there's still questions around how it works in practice and um you know how to bring, you know, because it's not it's not bilateral, it's it's a number of different countries coming together. So I think there's a lot of interest in in the operational aspects of the blended intensive programs.

21:39 Also the 20% international mobility, although of course, you know, the the the UK has had Turing, which is a totally international scheme as as well as TATES. Um there's an interest in how you know how how how UK universities will will kind of sell, if you like, that that one way mobility to those companies.

22:00 countries um where where there isn't an opportunity for reciprocal mobility. So um so I think um d do be just yeah reaching out you know widely I totally agree with Amanda's point around you know not not reducing Erasmus to mobility. I think we do need leadership from a number of tiers, top tiers within UK but also European universities to take full advantage of Erasmus and thinking through how internationalization strategies within university departments but also universities as a whole can really be pivoted towards Europe and Erasmus to really help to boost the quality of teaching, you know, to take full advantage of what Erasmus can unlock that might help to secure for example wider research

22:54 collaboration and horizon funding, transnational education partnerships, recruitment opportunities and really to think big because this is unprecedented funding available for both organizational partnerships as as as well as mobility. And then of course you've got the centralized actions as well which are um you know well funded they may be competitive but are are are a unique opportunity for for UK universities to fantastic.

23:24 Amanda where do you see this issue of um expectation management falling in this Swiss context?

23:30 Well I would say as I said it before don't expect everything to be perfect from day one uh starting in January 2027. Um Swiss partners need to re-familiarize with the Erasmus plus processes, um rebuild routines um and get back into the program system because uh 12 years is a lot to to to catch up. But I would say if everyone can work together um we can also focus on the positive aspects with Switzerland and UK rejoining you will get strong institutions uh uh uh with a very high uh uh uh higher education and much more possibility for every student in Europe so I would say be patient and focus on the positive aspects of of Switzerland and UK rejoining.

24:19 Not only in the higher education sector but in all education sectors.

24:24 Perfect. So I've taken up quite a bit of your time already you're both extremely busy but there's one final question I wanted to put to you which I think is kind of a fun one. If we were to talk together again in five years' time and I would like that very much and you were to look back on what has transpired over the last five years what outcomes would tell us that this reintegration of the UK and Switzerland into Erasmus plus had really delivered for its stakeholders that it had really been a successful and smart move?

24:54 What would be some of the signals that you think would would tell that story?

24:58 For me the success would be quite simple. Switzerland is fully part of Erasmus plus in 2027 and beyond and five years from now politicians the private sector and the public can clearly see the value and the benefits out of that participation. But I don't want to be the one to measure it.

25:19 Oh heaven help us measurements are tricky but so important.

25:24 Great thank you Amanda and Erica to you I think I would want to say that we there's a really strong track record of impact particularly for disadvantaged students so that we we could track those students who have benefited from Erasmus and they would tell a really cogent story of how Erasmus has tangibly opened up opportunities for them.

25:49 And as Amanda said that that was shared widely you know by the press and was recognized by politicians across the spectrum um I would want to see friendships established that have lasted you know over the over the years and over the decades community networks I would want to see you know a strong sense of belonging both for European students and staff you know coming to to the UK but also in in in in the other direction and having some of those living bridges that that we so need um reestablished.

26:24 I would want to see UK student students championing Erasmus amongst their peers. I would want to see academics talking about Erasmus in their daily work and the importance of you know needing to sometimes amend their course degree structures in order to accommodate and enable automatic rec recognition for example um I would I think we would also want to see kind of multi-level partnerships being established that are thriving, built on good trust, good governance of UK EU universities across mobility research, academic collaboration, co-teaching, recruitment of students and extending kind of beyond the world of education through to growth, you know, joint startups being established and thriving

27:15 and ultimately stronger internationalization of UK universities particularly perhaps those who might be smaller, more specialist, perhaps more teaching intensive, as well as the FE colleges with really strong connections to European higher education. And I suppose I would want the UK to be known in Europe but also internationally as a really top quality destination for a first class student experience as well as linking to really strong employability prospects.

27:46 I think you both have articulated such a beautiful symphony of synergies, you know, things that we would really like to see align and prosper in in the years ahead I very much hope your your visions come to pass. For now we have um the excitement of the moment and very um busy days ahead I think with the in the reintegration of both of your countries and we thank you so much for taking the time to reflect on what's ahead and what we hope to see.

28:15 So thank you again for your time. Thank you very much, Nora That was Erica Book, the Erasmus Plus higher education sector lead for the British Council, alongside Amanda Cromeri, head of higher education for Movetia, the Swiss National Agency for the promotion of exchanges and mobilities in the education sector.

28:37 Our episode notes contain a number of links to information and resources of note when it comes to both the UK and Swiss engagement with Erasmus Plus. We hope you'll take full advantage of that information. Well as we publish this episode in late September I still can't believe the 2026 EAIE conference and exhibition is already several weeks behind us.

28:59 Thanks to everyone who took part and we hope the rhythm of revolution is still moving you and the work you're doing. A quick reminder if you want to be part of the program for hashtag EAIE2027, the call for proposals for our conference for next year in Lisbon is open now through 2 November. So be sure to get your submissions in before then to share your luminous perspectives which is of course the theme for our 2027 conference.

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