S2.E10 – Madison Rensing on Photographing Artists, Saying No, and Knowing What You're Worth

VSCO Team: Learn how to actually deeply care for people too. Not just this like fake care of like, I'm gonna ask questions just so like I can get something from them, but just learn to like care for people, you know, and and serve people. And I think that everything flows out of that. Then I had seen people posting more film stuff and I was like, maybe it'd be cool to just like get it, try it out, see what it's like. And so I just got this like twenty dollar film camera and I I just fell in love with the process of film. There have been moments where I'm like, hey I'll do it for less because I want this opportunity. Yeah. It doesn't mean that my art is worth less. Right. To me. Right. All right. Well, hello and welcome back to F twenty two. We are here in Nashville, Tennessee with Madison Rensing. Madison, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. So glad to be here. Yes. Yeah, we are super excited to have you. If you all are meeting Madison for the first time, she's my dear friend, my little sister. I'm super proud of her. Who's been introducing me like that? I'm like, what are you talking about? That's true. Not officially, but I feel deeply connected to her because she's just an incredible human being. And I'm excited for us to be able to have these conversations. I first met you via I asked you to take photographs of me. Yeah. Yeah. I was needing to get some PR pictures and I wanted something that hit a little bit different. And I love the work that Madison does. She's largely in the well portraiture, but largely within the music space. Yeah. She's done amazing bands, a lot of the up and coming, emerging indie bands here in Nashville and the surrounding area. And largely film. Yeah. And so that was our initial connection. And then we just built a friendship over that time. And I'm excited to Talk to her today because I think she has so much wisdom and experience for a lot of the up and coming photographers. All of y'all that are maybe like at the place where like, hey, I love photography. Now, how in the world do I make that my thing? I think y'all will hear Madison's story and it's really, really inspiring. So without further ado, let's jump right in. Glad we can chat. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe just tell us a little bit about the kind of work that you do and how you got started. yeah. Okay, so I would say I would categorize myself as an a musician, photographer, artist, kind of anything in the in the music world I feel very, very deeply inspired by. I I feel like I didn't really grow up listening to a lot of music. And so I think, you know, as I started to Even just like I remember early days in high school, I would hang out with some of my best friends and you know, I would hear a a song by like Khalid or something like that. And I, you know, the like something in my like heart just kinda hits you. Like it just hit it hit very, very deeply. And and I think like out of that I just started loving music so much. And I think that I think that's a huge reason why I love working with musicians and and artists. Are you a musician yourself? I I can sing a little bit and play a little bit. I I love it. It's more of a creative outlet for me, you know, when I get home from a photo shooter. Yeah. It just allows me to like really exhale and do something that I'm like really, really bad at. That's very fun to me. You know, and like not be like a professional at it. Right. But yeah, I would say mostly musician, artist stuff. I shoot some weddings here and there when, you know, when People reach out and it feels really like fun and interesting and I have time for it. But yeah. How did I get started? I think I got my first camera when I was like ten, maybe nine or ten. Yeah. It was like a really small, cheap, like pink canon. I don't even know what it was, but it little screen on the back, little zoom lens. And I remember taking photos of cereal and like going and like climbing the tree in my backyard and like videotaping myself. Yeah. and and it was just so fun and like silly to like come back, take the SD card out, watch what I had just done. And I was like, This is the coolest thing ever. And so yeah, that was like the start. And then, you know, one day my mom found like a very cheap Nikon, don't even remember the model. Film, digital, digital, digital at that point. On Facebook Marketplace like a hundred bucks, something like that. And I like teared up when she gave it to me. And it was just a really sweet moment. And And then from that I kind of just like was in love with taking photos. Yeah. And I think a huge part of my journey as a photographer was I have family that moved to Alaska. One of my like closest cousins in age, which like, you know, in turn made him my favorite cousin, you know, like we were just the closest at the time. And and he moved to Alaska. And so, you know, for the last like five to six summers. You know, I've been visiting him and and that was really shaping even just for like the love of nature and and landscape photography and yeah and all of that, which is really, really I mean, Alaska's just amazing. And so I think I yeah, I just felt a lot of a lot of joy in taking photographs of like travel. Right. Do you think having that time in Alaska, do you think that that's something that you could see yourself creating like a body of work out of or a book out of? Or is it just like that was that was a stimulus for you wanting to having the freedom to shoot and shooting a lot. I don't know. I don't know if I would say that and maybe this is just me being very critical of my work, but I don't really think that a lot I don't think I could make a book right now out of the ph photos that I've taken in Alaska. But I think I love Alaska. I have a really deep yeah love and passion for that state since visiting a ton and I would love to do a book on Alaska. That would I mean that would be incredible. Right. That would be really fun. But Yeah, I don't think I don't think I could make a book just yet. Yeah, yeah. Out of Alaska photos. Okay. But maybe one day that would be amazing. I always tell my clients, some of the artists I work with, I'm like, just please write a song called Alaska so we can like go. Okay. And like take right you know, album covers or whatever out there. I'm like, I just want any excuse to go back. I'm like Sounds a vibe. Please, somebody. But anyways, yeah. Okay. So this Alaska was bring us in the timeline. What age are you at this point? Mm, I think it was maybe it was like 2019, which means six years ago, and I'm twenty three now. So what is that? Sixteen, seventeen. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think I was sixteen the first time I went. So you're sixteen in this time. Yep. You're taking photos in Alaska, you have a nicer camera that's your mom. Yeah. Gotch. Nicer, yes. Okay. Yeah. Take us to the next step now because obviously there's been a huge evolution between hey, I'm Taking photos and it's fun to what your pursuits are now. Sure. Fill in the gaps for us. Yeah. So Alaska, love it. I would say after those trips, I remember like going home, editing my photos, and just feeling like looking at something that I'd taken, you know, weeks weeks before and feeling so like connected to it emotionally. I was like, this is so amazing. And so I kind of just started to like You know, I had a really solid group of friends in high school. And so we would I live close to Saint Louis and so we would drive thirty minutes to downtown Saint Louis and you know, we would I would just take photos of my friends, portraits of my friends, some architecture stuff and that. And just I I think found a really deep love for like portraiture in that time. And yeah. Did it cross your mind that this could be something I could do or was this more of like, this is fun? I'm like It's fun making art with my friends. Yes, it was just fun. Yeah. Strictly just fun. I remember I remember I had made a a photography Instagram just to like post my stuff. Yeah. And basically I like had yeah, I'd started posting stuff and in that, you know, you kind of like meet other photographers over Instagram. And I had met these two guys named Trevor and Alex. Okay. Some local photographers in my hometown and They're amazing and I felt super inspired by their by their work. We were just Instagram friends, like strictly have just communicated over Instagram and, you know, through comments and DMs and stuff like that. And I remember I met them at this like local event that we were at and I saw them and they were like, my gosh, like you're Maddie, you're Madison Renting. And I was like, Yeah, like Yeah. I love your and I told them I was like, I'm inspired by what you guys do. It's really cool. And they were like, We want to meet you for coffee. Like we wanna like get coffee with you. And so we like planned a date for the week after and and I and they were like also bring your camera at that and at that time I had transferred out of the Nikon into like a Sony A6000 or something like that. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And and so I brought my camera to this like coffee meeting at like seven AM at the local cafe. And they just like I remember feeling so encouraged by them. Yeah. Like they They like looked at my camera and they were like, How are you taking photos with that thing? Like and you know, they're like gear heads and like have some of the best gear and you know, their work obviously is very creative all like alongside that, but they really care about the gear, the things that they're taking photos with. And so and so they were like blown away by the photos that I was taking with the camera that I had. And I just remember feeling so encouraged by them and I remember them looking at me and saying, If you wanted to do this for a job Yeah. Like if you wanted to do this for the rest of your life, you could do it. So that was the light bulb. That was that was Loki the light bulb. Yeah. That was the light bulb of like, wow, like these people that I'm inspired by and that are doing this for a job. Yeah. Told me that I could also do it. Right. And that really, and I've told them this so many times, like that was a pivotal moment in my career. Yeah. Or my in my life, really. Just like somebody, no offense, mom, but like somebody other than you know, your parents or your family members or somebody that is is maybe doing the craft, telling you that you're gifted or that you're that seems like easy. Such a a key pattern that we're seeing if somebody yeah. Yes. It could be a parent, it could be a friend, it could be a mentor, it could be we've heard Visco at some point like reposting your work. But it feels like there has to be that moment totally where it's like someone affirms you for what you do. Yes. And I think that's a great encouragement for anybody that's a little bit farther in their journey that's maybe has somebody else that's just getting started. Like you don't realize what just a simple little phrase like that could change somebody's life just to encourage them. The power of words. Yeah. It it was life changing. Yeah. Hearing them say that. So you affirmation moment, light bulb moment. You know that not only are you good, this is something that you want to do. Yeah. There's still a massive gap between what you're doing. I'd love to hear a little bit about the long story. Because I mean, I've seen your your Visco. I think you started posting in two thousand seventeen. Yeah. That's cool. I mean we all start somewhere. Right? So in two thousand seven we can go and track and see your progress to where you're now. Yeah. And it's massive. Yeah. Did you just start you already shooting your friends, but did you start shooting bands or how did you go about like making this happen? I mean, I think after that conversation with them, it opened up a whole new level of motivation for me to even just ask people to to shoot with. I think I at that point they really encouraged me into, you know, building my portfolio. If I wanted to do this, they were like, you should just build your portfolio, get some really solid pictures. Like took family photos for my sister. Okay. so your portfolio meaning was It was all over the place. It wasn't focused on bands at the same time. No, no, no, no, no. I mean Yeah. Okay. No music really at all in that. Yeah. I grew up in the church and so I I in some moments like I I think I remember taking photos of like a worship night that we had. Okay. And that was like my first maybe experience ph photographing like a musical something. Okay. Mm. That was just for my church, which I think maybe impacted some of that as well. But I think Yeah, I just kinda started taking photos of you know, random things. And one of those guys that encouraged me into doing this as a job got engaged and he was like, Will you shoot my wedding for me? And I was like, Are you kidding me? You want me to shoot your wedding? And Were you genuinely surprised at that? my gosh. I was crapping my pants. Like I was like Did you do it? yeah I did. Yes. And and then he like was like, and I'll have like my friend Michaela second shoot for you and I was like Michaela is gonna second shoot for me. Like it was just like, what is happening right now? Okay. Major imposter syndrome. So I did that, had so much fun. Yeah. And that kind of opened up some other doors to be like, I can like make money doing this. I can support myself. Yeah. And yeah. And so then the evolution from there, I guess, would be like started really listening to a lot of music, met this girl that lives in Nashville now. And she we were the same age at the time and she did music. And so we connected over social media, hit it off. Came and visited and kind of just like met the creative community in Nashville. Yeah. And I think even just moving here, living with songwriters and people doing music for their job as young people really opened my eyes to like yeah and like finding inspiration and and more than like photos, like finding inspiration in in music and in like different mediums and and so yeah, like moving to Nashville, Nashville really, really changed a lot for me when it comes to Just like even what I was wanting to do and and where I feel like I was being like directed with my career. And I it was happening really organically. Was that the connections of the community or was that your eyes being open to like, this is a thing where I can make a business out of this? I don't know. I felt like it was just still for fun. I I I hadn't done a year of community college and and then, you know, decided like that was not for me at all and and was like I'm just gonna move. I had the opportunity to move to a new city and get a different experience. And and so I just did it and and the community that I was immediately just shoved into, which was unbelievably beautiful. Like shoved, that's a really weird word to say. Like yeah. I was like placed in into this community like so perfectly and everyone was creative. Yeah. Whether they were doing music or photography. I met, you know, I introduced you to my friend James Wolf the other night. He was a huge part in like my career being in town. Yeah. Really I think I just built a lot of friendship with people. I can look back at my career and say I really built a lot of friendship and a lot of like yeah just relationships with people that were that were creative and that wanted me to like be a part of what they were doing. And I don't know. It just it just felt very, very easy. It felt way too easy. I got that. I mean I Colorado Portland, Seattle, Bay, New York. I've spent time in a lot of different places. I've actually never been in a place like Nashville where there's this sense of creative community and people helping each other. I've never seen it to the point when I first moved here. I was like, like, what is going on? Wow. I know what do you want from me? And then it turns out it's just like no. It was just cool. Yeah. Yeah. So it just it is kind of just crazy. I don't even really know. I feel like My mind is all over the place when it comes to like how did I even get to where I am now? And it just feels like I don't really know. Yeah. Well, it sounds like the community that you have. And I'm thinking about my own kind of early twenties, finding myself and it a huge unlock for me was figuring out like, I can change myself and change my own life by sure who I surround myself with and where I place myself in community makes a huge difference. Yeah. Totally. And it sounds like that's your story. Yeah. yeah. It absolutely is. Yeah. It was it just was also like moving out of my parents' house and yeah, having my like own life very separate from that. I just kind of found myself. Yeah. And you know, I still that's kind of a weird thing to say. But like, you know, I'm still learning about who I am and but but I think I learned a lot about yeah who I was, you know, moving away and well, and you can't separate your work as an artist from your own understanding of yourself. So many of these conversations, when it is about how'd you get started, it's It's about you who you are and figuring out who you are and your style and that you love photography and what kind of photography and everybody's different. And it's the the better you know yourself and the better you figure out your thing, yeah, the the more clearly you're able to get into your work. Totally. Yeah. Absolutely. It is kind of crazy how we all have access to such amazing cameras, but yet what can come out of them, the results, differ massively based on the person's perspective. Yeah. And how they see the world. You know, we've talked to so many really good photographers, but they all have a distinct perspective or style that comes out. And it's not just like what film they're using or what camera they're using. It's it's something about how they see the world. Or how maybe not how only how they see the world, but how they interact with the world. Sure. And the the relationships they build. I'm curious. You predominantly are shooting film now. Yeah. How did you Learn about film. For old guys like Zach and I, our first cameras were film, so that's just kind of how we rolled. Right. But at your stage in your career, you had to make a conscious choice that that's what you were going to do. Digital is what you grew up on. That was your first camera. Talk to us about that experience and that decision making. You know, I was shooting digital pretty much the whole time, being here for like a year. And I remember I went to there's a local thrift. camera book store called McKay's. Yeah. They have a ton of stuff. I don't even too much to name. But I remember I went there and I was like, a Minolta shoot, I don't even guys I don't even know the names of my cameras. Like an SLT something. Yeah. At 35mm. I was like, $20, you kidding me? I'm just gonna get that. I'm just gonna buy it. Give it a shot. Cause I I think I think that maybe I had seen I I follow so many like travel photographers, people that just like travel the world and I had seen people posting more film stuff and I was like maybe it'd be cool to just like get it. Try it out, see what it's like. And so I just got this like $20 film camera and I I just fell in love with the process of film. Really. I would I would say I probably wouldn't be f shooting film if it wasn't for like the process of like not being able to see the photo immediately. And you know, there Wait, you do like that, not being able to do it. Okay. I love it. Like I wouldn't be shooting film if it wasn't for like the process of it. Cause I even before I started shooting film, I and I will not say I perfected it, but I got pretty good at Like kind of emulating the film look when editing and and so but I just like literally I was like, This is like the coolest thing. Yeah makes forces me to like be patient with yeah, you know, with my work and and it just felt so much more rewarding. And also the look is just incredible. Yeah. And so I kind of just started taking photos of my friends here in Nashville, you know, started having clients reach out, I would shoot some digital and then like shoot a roll of film for free just because I wanted to you know, make the gallery a little look a little bit more diverse or whatever it is. And and so I kinda just started shooting it alongside, you know, my you know, few and far between my like paid gigs in Nashville. Yeah, yeah. And ended up really, really falling in love with it. My one of my friends gave me this like Yeshika Matte one twenty four G, the medium a medium format camera that you like look top down. That was so fun to experiment with. I remember shooting with that and that was that felt really inspiring and And fun. And then I kind of just was like, I think I'll just invest in like a nicer camera. That's when I kind of moved into the contacts world. Okay. Like two years ago. Invested in that. They're being a great camera. Yeah. It's a great camera. But yeah, yeah, I think I think it just it felt very, very natural kind of moving into that. And then I think that people just saw my work, my film work, and they were like, I want that. Yeah. I don't really want digital. I want that. Yeah. And I was like, okay. Like cool. So I would agree with that. And when I look at your photos, regardless of whether they're shot true on film or digital, you do have a distinct perspective and eye towards things. That's what drew me when I like, Man, if I want to do PR photos or LinkedIn photos, I actually want them to hit really different. Yeah. And so My experience with you shooting, you push me outside of my comfort zone for sure. Sorry about that. No, it was great. It was great. You see the results and you're like, that's awesome. And that's what I what I see when I look at your photos. Yeah. You're not just well, I do film and that's that's who I am. Like it it is very clear you have a perspective and you're willing to whether you look at it as this or not, you very much play. Yeah. It's so fun to me. Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious about when you're interacting with these bands who largely or musicians will have some probably semblance of something that they want. But talk to us about that collaboration process, everything from the first call or the first text to actually interacting with them on set or wherever you're photographing them. Yeah. I would say it's very different depending on who I'm working with. I think, you know, if I already know somebody just out of friendship and they hire me, it's It feels very collaborative, very fun. And, you know, we just will go grab coffee if they're in Nashville. Most most artists that I work with live in Nashville. Some don't, but most do. And so, you know, it feels like a very like free flowing I don't I don't feel very like, you know, hardcore when I'm when it comes to like you need to like plan this whole thing out and I need to know exactly what photos I need to take. Usually it's like a little bit of both. Okay. And do you have a shot list when you go in or you More of like I have ideas. I have ideas. No, it's usually more of more of just say, Hey, like I would love I usually just say like make like a small Pinterest board of of stuff that you love that like draws you in, that makes you like feel you know, like may that maybe feels like the music that you're making, you know, or maybe like an an area that you want to go into and and people will do that. But then other times where, you know, creative directing, like together collaborating to you know, bring a concept like c coming with a concept and a theme and then trying to like, you know, capture that. Yeah. And and so that that looks very different. Yeah. It's a it it really does depend on the artist and if they know, you know, exactly what they want or if they're like, Hey, I just have the music and I haven't thought about what I want. You know, I think one of my favorite parts of my job is like getting the music early. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which it my gosh, it's one of my favorite parts and just like putting my headphones on and listening and and getting to just write down what I see when I listen. Yeah. You're like the opposite of a film composer. Sure. You're you're getting the music first and you're putting the visuals to it. Yeah. Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts about my job. It's very it feels so fun. And again, I love music so much. And so it just feels very special that people trust me to hear their music and to, you know, like that is such a crazy thing to me. I'm like, if I made music Yeah. Like trusting somebody to hear the music and come up with concepts to carry the music. Because I you know, I think more than ever I'm realizing how important visuals are in the music world. And you know even more so I think in this day and age where we have talk and all that. The visual is so important. Very, very important. I would say which not it's not as important, but it it is extremely important. Yeah. As you're listening to a piece of music that's not out yet. I mean, do you do ideas just come to you or do you start researching or like how do you go from something so amorphous to okay, we're gonna go to this place and we're gonna want you to wear this and you know, like I have no idea. I I it it feels like it just is it's very natural. Also like I'm in communication with them. And so it's like, you know, if an artist sends me a project and they're like, I want there to be eggs in it or something, or like chickens, or like You know, like I had somebody say that to me recently. He's like, That's all I got. That's all I got. And I, you know, I haven't heard the music yet for that. But that just immediately came to my mind. Literally. And I just I died laughing, but I was like, also, cause if you know, I'm not gonna spill the beans on that project or anything, but even, you know, sometimes they have a little bit to go off of and you can kind of flow from that a little bit further. And also I think a very important part of that. process is just like listening and reading the lyrics. Yeah and picking out words that stick out and and and you know themes that stick out over a record or, you know, I think I just am also very I I'm looking for things that feel different and cool that haven't been done before. And which I still I still feel like that's something that I'm really learning how to do is like how do I have a how do I like Do something that feels really fresh and different. Right. Very different. So I'm learning. Yeah. It it's not it's not a very easy process. And it's very it's a very collaborative process with the artist. Yeah. Or with management or the cre the creative director that I'm working with. It's like fluctuates big time. Yeah. I'm sure. But one thing I am curious about, you know, having heard from Greg how you were directing him and stuff. And, you know, when I've shot artists too, I mean, they're not professional models usually. They're Yes. Musician who has to have has to be in front of a camera for for one reason or another. And a lot of times they're not super comfortable with that. So what do you do to make them comfortable? What do you do to make them look good? Do you have any, I don't know, tips or or tricks or just how do you go about make making a non-model w look good in a photo for their record? Sure. I think that I genuinely just care about people. And and I think that Coming into a photo shoot and not to just get something out of it, but to also serve somebody and more than take a great photo of them. I think that a lot of people can just look at somebody and like take a good photo. But I think that there's something really special when you can, you know, make f somebody feel very safe and comfortable. Yeah. And ask them questions about their life and like actually get to know them as a person rather than like this artist that I'm working for or this person that's paying me to do something. Right. You know, like I I think I feel really passionate about just friendship in this world and like f you know, I don't know. I think that that is what fills me up the most in in my job is people. Okay. Does that relationship with someone? Sometimes I've struggled in the past of being like even bringing up money almost feels like it's gonna mess everything up. It's extremely hard. Yeah, okay. It's it's really hard, but also I just think I think I've had so many conversations with people where I'm like, hey, like, care about you. You're my friend. You know, you just have to like they're people. Right. They can, you know, most people can take your honesty and like, you know, seek to understand what you might need, you know, and and so, you know, there have been people that I'm like, you know, yeah, I can absolutely do this for less than I might feel like I'm w worth or whatever that means. And then there are other times where I'm like, hey, you know, like yeah I you know, I need I need to get paid for this. And situational and yeah. Practically speaking, do you base your fees off of if the artist is signed, if they're not signed, if they're big, if they're not big, if you know them? Like, how do you think about bidding projects? That's a yeah, really great question. I I would say I definitely My rates change based on if you're like backed by a label or not. You know, because some an an indie artist that's working a coffee shop job. Right. And a in a and then an artist that's backed by a huge label in California where they're they're actually like wanting to like pour money into marketing. It's like, yeah. The prices will change a little bit. Which feels like kind of wrong in some ways, but it's not. It's not wrong. And I think that I think also I just really love what I get to do and I love my job. And so I'm willing to just create for people and serve people if they like if they need, you know, photos and they maybe can't afford my full rate that I would charge a multi million dollar label or billion dollar label or whatever. So I usually it's I usually don't say no to people if they can't pay my full rate. And you're interested in the project. And and I'm interested in the project. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I I do say no to people for sure when it comes to the I was just gonna ask that. Yes. Yeah. That was I kind of lied just then. I do say no to people, but I it's if I feel deeply inspired by a project or just by a friend, like I get the I get to make the decision whether or not I want to do it or not. Right. You know, like it's it's up to me to communicate and and be very clear about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And so I don't walk away feeling like upset for not getting paid my full rate. Right. Right. So yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. You're already doing a lot of photography. It seems like there'd be potentially natural options to do video. Is that something you're interested in? Is that something you're asked for by clients to do the photoslash video? We've and I asked because we have been getting a lot of photographers being like, I just want to take photos. Yeah. But they're also being asked, maybe not full fledged videos, but at least like social media content type videos. Yeah. Is that something that yeah, how are you approaching that? I don't really want to do video, but you know, I feel very passionate about just like the medium of photography, but I something that I'm really excited for coming even just coming into this new year is some possible tour opportunities where that is necessary. Got it. It's necessary to take videos of, you know, people and like the show and like documenting the tour. It's very, very important and and you know, for bands that, you know, aren't aren't playing these huge venues and aren't, you know, getting paid super well, it's it it's not super practical practical for them to bring two people on the road. And so it's either I say yes to learning video and like Yeah. Kind of biting the bullet a little bit and buying a microphone. Yeah. And just kind of learning basic video or saying no to the opportunity. Sure. And that being like on me. Yeah. No, that's fair. we recently added we have Visco Capture our free photo app, but we r recently added video to that. And you can take these photos or these videos color graded from the get go. And it's not like the pro proist of all things, but it's not meant to be. It's been meant to be more for those situations where they are taking your photos, but you also need to grab like a few right like video things that are gonna end up on someone's real. Yeah. But we do I I wonder if this is the new reality, if if photographers in the future will be able to just do photography or is it gonna be a mix of both? Yeah. I'm not sure. I think that I'm I'm I think I'm deciding to s do photography. Yeah. But there are opportunities where I am willing to be uncomfortable and maybe do something that I don't want to do in order to like be able to keep yeah doing what I want to do and building friendship and connections with people and you know. So it's kinda like I can't just always do what I wanna do. Right. And I think that that's okay. And so and it makes me uncomfortable choosing to do something I don't like, but we all have to do that. Yeah. I mean I I will say this. When I look at the work that you do, in particular with artists, it feels like a movie. Yeah. So so I and I I differ that from like maybe just like social media content, but but I do think that is a potential opportunity for you to still put your stamp on things. But But it already feels the shots already feel like it might be in like an A bunny four film or something like that. We just need to make a move, you know? Thanks. That means a lot. Thanks. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see what the future holds with that. But I think that if you feel like you don't want to do video and you know, you just kinda have to be like, Okay, like you're kind of saying you might be saying no to some things while when saying no to that. You know, and I think that that's just the reality of you know, working with people and money being involved and, you know, wanting to wanting this to be my career. I don't know. It's kind of just Yeah. And and it's situational too. Like sometimes like, yeah, I'd be willing to take a few videos and other times I'm like, Nope. Like a project that I just got. Hopefully that I get locked down for this month. This guy was like, would you do video? And I was like, No, I don't want to do video and and and really less of like a I'm just not going to do video for you. But it was just like I think I would better be able to like show up. Right in this specific, you know, scenario and shoot if I was just focused on doing photography. Yeah. So I mean, it is very difficult to actually do photo and video. I yeah. I think it's from a client side, they they see an iPhone and they're like, it's just a toggle. Yeah. Between photo and video. But practically speaking, if you're really doing it professionally or with any semblance of intention, it's sure. Very different mindsets. It's very difficult to do that. You mentioned you might Go on a couple of tours. What else does the future, let's say 2026, look like? Yeah. What do you want to grow? What means success at the end of the year for Madison Runson? I think getting on some tours. Yeah. I think that feels really would be really, really cool to get that experience to travel a bit. Nothing's like locked in for sure. Yeah. But that's the goals. But you know, that would be really exciting for me. I've been wanting to do that for about two years. And so Finding I I've I've been really grateful to like find some, you know, really awesome people that really believe in me, that I really believe in them as well. And you know and so yeah, hoping to be able to like collaborate with them for a month and document a tour. Yeah. I think it would be incredible. But yeah, we'll see. I like really two thousand twenty six doesn't really I don't really know what's happening this year. I think I would love to do some more. personal project. So I don't really know what that looks like at all. Yeah. But would love to just do some more stuff for for me right this year and, you know, find some some friends or some models or d do some really fun stuff that yeah, you know, I I think feels like my creativity a lot where I'm not really like even considering somebody else's create or, you know, what they what they might want. Is that maybe like a space where you would want to take your work or you just have that desire to kind of do some creativity that's not attached to work at all? I don't know. Okay. I think what do you mean by that? Would you res say your question? Yeah. Sometimes people do personal projects because the the work that they do for clients isn't necessarily what they love or they just need something to fill their soul, their creative, you know, get get get something that fulfills them. For some people, you know, the c the the creative or the their personal work and their their client work overlaps tons. And so I feel like the way that people approach Personal work when they also have client work varies tremendously with why they're doing that and what they're trying to get out of it. So I'm I'm curious what you have in mind. Yeah. I mean, I would love if I was to create a project from the ground up solely on, you know, what I wanted to do, that people would see that and want to hire me some for something similar. Yeah. Or even just be even just like growing my authority maybe in the creative direction world and and people wanting to hire me on to you know. plan and conceptu like bring like more concepts to shoots and yeah. I think I just wanna keep learning, really. It just feels like I am I still feel like I don't know anything about photography, which is like not true. And I can say that comment, like I kind of know what I'm doing a little bit, but I I really want to learn more yeah. About photography and I think that's the right mindset to I I remember when I was in my early twenties The creative director that I was working for, his name Bobby Jones. He was like, if you ever get to the point where you think you have made it or you've known it all, that's the moment then your creativity peaks and you you stop pushing yourself. You stop being curious. Yeah. So even though you feel frustrated because we're all, I want to make something that I really love. He's like, the moment you really do that, he's like, it's all downhill from there. Wow. And and it's always set with me. I'm like, yeah, that actually that actually makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to love my job too. Yeah. I wanna love taking photos. And I think that to me that means not doing it for money. Yeah you know, all the time. Yeah. And doing it for fun. Because that's how it started, you know. And yeah. And I I I really wanna like keep the love of photography super like fresh in my heart. Yeah. In my heart. You mentioned how you started and I wanna I wanna ask you just for other people who are just getting started, you know, we have so many young people on Visco. Doing what you it seems like what you were doing early on, just posting pictures of their friends, of the things that are around them, the trips that they're taking. And it's so cool to to see some of them then taking an interest and really becoming professional photographers like you. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. How does somebody who's, you know, a high schooler or even junior higher or college age or whatever, somebody that's in that transition phase that you were in, how do they, you know, what advice would you give them or even to yourself back, you know, when you were getting started? What would What do you tell somebody like that? That's such a great question. I think I would say like value your like value yourself, you know, more than you think. I think that I felt really scared to step into something that I wasn't good at. Yeah. And, you know, just the idea of like comparison was so like, you know, in high school You know, it's such an easy thing to compare yourself to everybody around you. And and I think that just choosing to, you know, be different and and do things that you feel like excited and inspired by. And also I would just say like do free work and do it for fun and build your portfolio. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's great. Like I I think that as humans we have such deep value and I think that it goes far beyond taking photos on a camera and yeah, you know, editing them and on whatever app you use. And I think that I think that it's just important that we like realize like, like I have a lot of value and I can bring a lot into a space that, you know, it it isn't just taking photos, it's also like, you know, being somebody being a safe person and or being just an enjoyable person. And yeah. And I would say just show up honestly to your shoots and and show up and like be yourself. Yeah. And, you know And I I would say like I try I try to not y like the whole, you know, I just want to be like a fly on the wall. I don't really resonate with that a lot. I feel like I I one of my favorite parts of my job is just totally being a part of what's happening and and inserting yourself into the picture. Like yeah, inserting myself and not like in this like cocky way, but in this like confident, like I deserve to be here. Yeah. Like and maybe deserve is a weird word, but like, you know. I think that it's okay to be confident in what you believe you can do. And I think that and I think that's taken a lot of time for me. But I yeah, I think I think just like believing in yourself and like even just taking steps of faith to like just do it, you know? Just like in like hit people up on Instagram and even though it might feel like, they're so good, they'll never get coffee with me or they'll never wanna hire me. I'm just like just do it. Like all you have like like, you know. The worst that can happen is they say no and is that an invitation for people to get coffee with you? Sure. Yeah. Would love that. That would be amazing. Yeah, I I don't know. I just think I just feel I I've seen a lot of growth in myself, like personally and you know, apart from from photography while doing this job. Mm-hmm. That I I just feel like I've I've grown a lot in confidence of of my gift and also my what I can bring to the table other than that, you know? And and I I just think that as humans we have so much to offer and everyone has some like something so different. Yeah. Both in photography or whatever creative endeavor you're doing and also just like in who you are. And so I think it it's just very beautiful when I see other creatives and other phot photographers just like believing in themselves. Yeah. And like in a yeah, in a way like inserting themselves confidently in in a s situation. I'd be like, hey like I'm here to take photos of you, like, you know, just being confident and then just being a friend and being somebody that's like relatable and you know, I would say I would just learn how to actually deeply care for people too. Not just this like fake care of like, I'm gonna ask questions just so like I can get something from them, but just learn to like care for people, you know, and and serve people and I think that everything flows out of that. That's a I love that answer. And I I'm having a really clear memory of myself at twenty one just thinking about the difference in me now as a more mature creative versus then the difference is actually my willingness to say what I don't know and my confidence in not knowing. Yeah. So like I I'm thinking of a scenario where when I was doing music, I was in a studio and the person asked me, you know, a question about which thing we should use, and I didn't know what either of these things were. And I didn't want to admit that. Sure. And so I I just said, Well, which one do you usually use? You know. And it was just such a silly thing. And I should have just said, I don't I don't know actually. I'm not I'm not familiar with those. Help me understand. Right. And I that's what I would do now because I have the confidence to know, yeah, this doesn't make me worse. This doesn't make me bad. I you know, I I know my value and it's okay that I don't know this thing. Yeah. And I think just that humility and that self confidence in being able to admit those kinds of things is absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. What what is your experience with like growing in confidence in what you're doing? Even now my confidence wavers significantly. There are days when I'm like, I am the best designer in the world. I literally think that sometimes. I am the best photographer in the world. Take that joke, Rear. And then there's other days where I'm like, What am I even doing? Yeah. And but I but what I've realized is that's actually beautiful to feel all those feelings because yeah those the feelings of the highs and the lows that come out in your art, whether you're doing music, whether you're painting, whether you're drawing, whether you're designing, whether you're writing poetry, all of that is actually really important to feel. Yeah. And we we all want to have the social media bangers and the things that everyone looks at us and is like, man, they are. Awesome. They won the award. They were on the podcast. They figured it out. They were successful. And that does feel good, of course. But I've actually found a lot of the lowest parts of my life, whether it's with depression or just lacking confidence in what I'm doing, is where some of the best work comes out with. Or or even just when I didn't know what I'm doing. I look back at my photos in my early twenties. They are technically terrible. My exposure's off. My My composition is wild, all these. But actually they're way more interesting photos than mostly what I take now, which are technically right. Nailed the exposure, got everything just perfect. But I lived a crazy fun, chaotic life at that point with crazy, chaotic, fun people. And that's reflected in my work then. So I think I think what it is is just taking all of those moments, all those ups and downs and all those things that make us human and then Saying how can I express this through my artwork? Yeah. Well, I think one of the biggest myths is that successful people don't feel any of that stuff. Totally. One of the most recurring themes in almost 14 years or almost 15 years at Visco is just meeting these extremely successful photographers. Yeah. And their insecurities, their you know, the the things that come out, like nobody thinks that they have made it. Yeah. Nobody in everybody's looking at everybody else thinking that they're better and that And it that never goes away no matter how successful you are. Yeah. Whenever we have physical meetups and and stuff, ever it's like everyone's there with their cool cameras and dressed all nice and stuff. And then what we we often start by saying, like, we are all nerds here. Because it's true. Everyone is trying to front or put on a certain persona. But we're all nerds. Yeah. We're all kind of idiots. Yeah. So you're talking a lot about Your value as a creator, and we talked about pricing a little bit. How do you then turn your own personal value into a number? Sure. I I I imagine that's really hard. You know, especially when you're first getting started, you have no clue what's normal. Yeah. Fear of them saying, well, no, and now you don't have the job at all. Yeah. How how do you how do you price yourself? I would say that I mean, that's been a that's been a journey for me trying to figure out how to, you know, confidently price myself. Cause I think that Having confidence in what you're charging is also a very important thing because people want people want to see somebody that believes in themselves. That's yeah, that thinks that they can really do the job and do it well. And sometimes that equates to a number. And I think that I think that in my journey as a photographer, it's just been, you know, connecting with other photographers and asking people, you know, maybe growing a little closer to somebody and then being like, if you don't mind sharing what you're what you're charging, you know, I've had conversations with friends where I, you know, have been like, this is the opportunity that that I have and this is what I would charge and this is what their, you know, their budget is. Yeah. What do you think about that? And even just even not feeling alone in that. I think I think maybe that's really that has been really powerful for me is is not feeling alone in you know, in all of that. Really and allowing people to be like, You're you're worth so much more than that. And so, you know, you can either take the opportunity and get paid less or You know, or say no. And really that's it. It's like, you know, if s if somebody has a budget, you know, it Yeah. You're just like, okay, I are you're gonna alter what you're gonna do for them. Are you just gonna say no to it? But you know, it's specifically for opportunities that I get where I'm like, my gosh, this could be like career altering, very amazing. This could be amazing for my portfolio and maybe they can't pay me my full rate. That's when it gets that's when it gets difficult and it there's this internal battle of like my worth. Right. You know, I wanna feel honored by somebody that's hiring me and I wanna be paid my full price, but is it worth it? Right. It's a it's a delicate balance. It absolutely is. I will say if there's photographers that are dealing with this, the freelance photographer, which is part of our Visco company, they have courses exactly on this. It's super helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely check that out. And I would also say I think there's a lot of photographers Who they love their craft. They love what they do. And if you don't know how much you're valued or how much, let's say specifically how much a gig or a project is that you're bidding on, probably you can double it at least. Isn't that crazy? Probably. That makes me want to throw up. Generally speaking, I think we underprice ourselves. Not always. Probably, yeah. But I think that's that's definitely true. And yeah. It's it's hard to know. It's hard to know. But there's a dynamic where people will feel like You're better because you're charging more, even though it's exactly the same work. There's just this perception that, well, you're yeah this much and well, I remember hearing from somebody one time is like once you start charging five grand in the wedding business, people start taking you more seriously. And I'm like, I don't even I don't know if that's true or not. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very interesting thing to to think about when you're charging yourself. Interesting. Yeah. Or charging yourself when you're pricing yourself. I think so. Yeah. When you do something that you love so much, you would do it for free. I think we tend to underestimate our value. Yeah. Because there's a projects I would do for free. Yeah. For sure. If I could get my rent paid and yeah. Yeah. And eat ramen noodles. Yeah. Maybe not for life, but like if I could do that for a while and just do what I love, I'd probably do it. Right. Right. I'm kidding. I would not do that. I I I love the suggestion of of bringing in others, bringing, you know, do it in community. Right. Get help. That that has been very valuable. It's just even just sitting down with people that have been doing it for a while, even, you know, like I there have been a few people that have been really pivotal and even my confidence in pricing myself properly and it really does just it it takes away this fear of, my gosh, am I being selfish or am I just trying to get something from them and Yeah, the money, the whole money thing, it's a struggle and really, really hard. And so you're not alone if you if you hate that part of this job, but it's a part of it and you kinda just have to like be confident in what you think you're worth and and I think just have open conversations with people. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And and you will have people that are like, I don't wanna like they'll just ghost to you when you send your pricing and then some people that'll be like, actually I can't do it for that price, thanks. And and then, you there have been moments where I'm like, Hey I'll do it for less. Because I want this opportunity. Yeah. You know, which kind of which I don't I'm just like, I'll I'll say that. I'll do it for less. And it doesn't it doesn't mean that my art is worth less. Right. To me. Right. Yeah. It's good. Thank you. So helpful. Thank you, Madison. You're so welcome. Thank you. For just your honesty, for your candor. And I'm sure that this is encouraging and inspiring to a lot of people. If they want to see people wanna see more of your work, get in touch with you or whatever. W where's the best place to go? I love Instagram. Probably a little too much. You can find me there at Madison Renting Photos, M-A-D-I-S-O-N, R-E-N-S-I-N-G photos. Okay. MadisonRenting.com is my website. You can email me there. Yeah. Or just find me out in East Nashville at a coffee shop. Probably editing away. Great. Yeah, thank you guys. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure. I feel honored, truly. Thank you. We'll see you all next time.