Ep. 208 | Jeremy Stalnecker | 1st Battalion 5th Marine CAAT Platoon Commander

All right, Jeremy Stalnaker, Welcome to the podcast. I really appreciate you coming on. CEO of the Mighty Oaks Foundation, former Fifth Marines guy did the invasion of Iraq back in the day, so I think we will have a really interesting conversation. I'd like to start off by one thank you for coming on obviously, and then asking you why you decided to join the Marine Corps. Yeah, well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate the conversation. I man, I've done a few things in my life. I think joining the Marine Corps was the first, obviously big decision that I made, and at the time I didn't realize how life changing or life altering it would be. I was raised in a very conservative Christian home. My dad

was actually a pastor, and so, you know, growing up, it was kind of like that's the family business, right, Like, we go into ministry, that's what we do. And when I was about fourteen years old, I knew that was not for me. And I wasn't you know, I wasn't running from God or anything like that, but I knew that wasn't for me. And I had read a book when I was younger.

It's a book I still have that was actually my dad's when he was a kid. So it's an old book written two boys to young men, and it recounts the stories of Congressional Medal of Valor recipients from World War Two. And so it's this book with these stories and supposed to encourage, you know, young boys to be men back in the olden days when we talked about things like that. And my dad had given it to me when I was a kid, and I started reading that and it kind of stirred those like I won't say patriotism, but the idea that you can do something big, and you could do something important and you know, live for something outside of yourself. Even when I was young, it started to kind of stir those thoughts and those feelings in me. So when I was fourteen, I went

to my dad and said, hey, Dad, I really think that I've been called right to enlist in the Marine Corps. And my Dad's like, yeah, I'm not sure about that. I don't know how I feel about you had listening in the Marine Corps, but you really think that's what you want to do will help you get there, And so they did, and so yeah, I don't know, the starting point. I always go back to that book in those stories because that was the first time I had, you know, those thoughts, and I was probably twelve thirteen years old, and then just started the process and really from fourteen on point in my life toward Marine Corps service. And you know, it's interesting, So you didn't ask me why did I go in the military, but why I went to

the Marine Corps, right, I don't really know, Like the other services just weren't an option for some reason. Somewhere along the line. The Marine Corps was if you go into the military, that's where you go. And so that's that was always my goal. They got good branding, man, they have good branding, they really do, and they appeal to kind of young you know, guys who just want to do something. So yeah, they did a good job. They got me. Yeah, I mean the whole when you're a teenager in early twenties, as a you know, as a young man, you're really looking for a some people are really looking for a challenge, and the military is an option. There's a lot of challenges that you can go into. You know, you can go into the army

and and get challenged and get benefits and stuff like that. They you know, they promote their benefits and everything, and the Marine Corps just goes in and goes, hey, look, it's gonna be hard. You might make it. Maybe you know, you know they're and that they're pretty upfront about that. And I think that's like appeals to a lot of people. Even if you know, people can say there's not a lot of difference between the branches or whatever. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that that initial challenge is what pulls a certain kind of person. I was planning on joining the Army when I was a kid. My dad was in the Army, and I was like, Army all the way, you know. And then I hadn't really even thought about or heard of the Marines that much other than

seeing like Emo Jima, you know, the old John Wayne movie. And then I read Marine Sniper and and that was like, that is what kind of flipped me, you know, that was the thing. Yeah, it's funny, it's funny. My So I had that conversation. I was fourteen, and somehow, and I don't know how he came across the program.

And you've probably you're probably familiar with it, but it's called Devil Pups. It's kind of a nonprofit that is put on by the Marine Corps brings in. At the time, it was just boys fourteen to seventeen, and it's like this ten day mini boot camp held at Camp Pendleton. It's pretty legit. It was then. It's still running. In fact, my nephews just went through this last summer. But my dad put me to put me into that program, and I think his thought was like, this is going to scare, you know, the Marine Corps out of you. You'll never want to do this again. But man to your point on branding and marketing.

They it was a big It was very hard. There's a lot of screaming, you know, but it's only ten days and they're showing you the best of the Marine Corps, you know, all of these incredible demonstrations and the best of the Marine Corps. So instead of it pushing it out of me, it was kind of like the final nail in the Marine Corps cough.

And I'm like, I'm doing it. I've got to do it. I want to do it today. And so my Dad's like, you can go in the Marine Corps, but you need to go to college. First, and so I ended up with a commission out of that. But yeah, that was that was it. I'm not a smart guy. It's pretty simple. Well yeah, I mean yeah. Again, the appeal too is like, hey, I can go hang out with my buddies and go shoot guns and stuff and like run through the woods and camp. Right, okay, yeah exactly. You know why would I not want to do that? So, right, what'd you study in college? Uh? So, my parents said you have to go to college and you have to get a degree and then you can do whatever you want to. And so I always assumed if

I left the Marine Corps, i'd go into law enforcement. And the only thing I was interested in studying in college was was criminal justice or you know, something that wasn't really super academic. And the college that I went to had a good criminal justice program, and so that's what I went through. And I've never been in law enforcement, but really grateful for the people that I met in that program. Yeah. So yeah, I think everybody should take at a minimum, I've told a lot of people this, At a minimum, you should go in and take like a business law class at a community college or something like that, only because the business law class is almost an intro to law and giving you like a basic understanding of rights and stuff

like that, and I think a lot of people would benefit from because I'm sure going through it and getting a criminal justice degree gives you a completely different perspective on everything than the average person walking around interacting with the police or the court systems or something like that. It does, and I think most criminal justice programs are this way, don't. I can't say it at universally, but ours was, and I think a lot are. They're taught by either current or retired law enforcement professionals, right, so you've got people it's not like having, you know, getting a math degree or something like that.

There's nothing academic about it. You have people who were working, you've been out on the street, you've been doing the thing that are now teaching the class, and so they take it very seriously, and at least in our program did a good job of instilling like, hey, the world's a big, dangerous place and you need to be prepared to operate in it. And even though I didn't go into law enforcement, that was a perfect segue for me going into the military. So it was a very helpful program for me.

I think more for the people and the instructors and the tone and the rest of it than it was even for what I learned. Yeah, was was OCS what you expected it to be? It was, Yeah, I had We had a good family friend who is now retired Marine officer, and he did a good job of preparing me for that. I went through the Marine Corps has it's called the Platoon Leaders Class or Platoon Leaders Course PLC program, and that's what I went through. So I actually went to Officer Candidate School over two summers. I went for six weeks after my freshman year and then the final six weeks after my junior year. So I wouldn't recommend splitting it up like that. You kind of get dropped twice, and you know, you go through the whole process twice. But yeah, it really was.

It was a challenge. It's very very physical, and that seems like the way to go for a lot of people like man, I don't want to give up three months. Yeah I could take a break, but I bet they lose a lot of people though they leave that first time they're like, you know what, that's not for me. Yeah, So it's the question of do you want to go through. So the OCS, if you just go at one shot, it's ten weeks. If you go twice, it's twelve weeks, and you're going you know, twice, but you go through that process of getting dropped all your stuff, you know, dumped on the grinder, getting kicked around, and going through that first week of just hell trying to get your mind around where you are and all the rest of

it. So you end up doing that twice over two summers, and it's possible. But yeah, there are a lot of people that leave what's called juniors the first half and say like, yeah, I'm not coming back. I'm not doing that again. So I think it's good. It's a good part of the process to weed out those who who kind of don't need to be there. But yeah, it's an interesting process. Man. It doesn't matter how dedicated you are before you get on the plane. That second time you're like, ah, man, I just don't know if I wanted to do this, But yeah it was good though. Yeah, at following that, I mean, did you have a specific job that you were wanting to get or how did that go? Yeah? So same same you're going into

the Marine Corps. That to me represented the military right and the infantry is what to me represented the Marine Corps. I knew there were other jobs, and particularly as I got older and started to really understand the Marine Corps, knew there was a lot that could be done there, but I just wanted to be an infantry marine. When my parents sent me to college and said you have to finish college before you do anything else, I was able to get into a commissioning program. But then I thought, you know, all I want to do is is infantry. I mean, I learned about the combat Arms, MOSS and how there are more than just infantry, but man, there are a lot of other ones too, and I'm thankful for everyone who does what they do in the Marine Corps, infantry or not. But

I just couldn't picture myself being a marine and not being an infantry marine. And so for those that aren't familiar the process or the selection process for military occupational specialties for marine officers, it's I mean, there's a process, but it's fairly random. You go to what's called the Basic Officer course, so you graduate Officer Candidate school, then you go to the next school, which is the Basic Officer course is six months long. Every marine officer goes there pilot, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your MLS is going to be or what your commissioning source was. Everyone goes there for six months. During that six months, you take a lot of tests, you're evaluated, and toward the end of that time, your staff tlotoon commanders they're captains that kind

of run that school, get together and based on the needs of the Marine Corps, the moss that are needed, they start to fill those with lieutenants. And so when you're going through that process, you put down your top three choices, but there is absolutely unless you have a flight contract, there's absolutely no guarantee or I guess a legal contract, no guarantee that you're going to get your MOS. So you could be an infantry ouster or you could be a supply officer and you have very little control over that. Now, those stafftlatoon commanders who kind of represent you, you know, I think they do some horse trading in those meetings, but yeah, it's crazy. So I was called in, you know, after I put in my three top

choices, stafftatoon commander called me in, sat down, had a counseling session right before they go into this meeting and figure out who's going to do what for their career. And hey, Stallnecker, look, you put down your top three choices. I know you want to be an infantry guy. If you can't get infantry though it's not possible, what do you want to do?

I said, sir, I really don't care. I mean, it doesn't matter to me. And I wasn't trying to be, you know, arrogant or egotistical. I just I couldn't see myself doing anything else and put me in any job in the Marine Corps doesn't matter. If I can't be an infantry infantry officer, then then it doesn't matter. The other jobs are fine. And he kept pushing me on it, and then he finally said, you better be careful what you asked for because you just might get it.

And certainly I did, and uh, you know, not knowing that nine to eleven would happen and everything that would happen in Iraq, it changed my life. But yeah, it's a crazy process. I don't know what I would have done if I guess I would have done my best, but what I would have done if I'd gotten another job. But that was all I had ever wanted to do. Yeah, did you ever read uh Nathaniel Fixed book One bullet Away? No, I don't think so. Okay, he's a he was an Infantry officer recon officer. If you've seen Generation Kill, he's one of the Platonia dindors in Generation Kill. Okay, his book talks about o CS and TB or TBS and then yeah, IOC Infantry Officers Course. Yep, and uh. I guess a lot of people were upset

with him when he wrote it when he wrote that, because he gave away a lot of secrets or whatever. But it's well known that like Infantry Officers Course is an extremely extremely hard school to get to even get through. Yeah, it's a again. I went to the Inftraoster course in ninety nine, so you know, I don't know what it's like today. I can't speak for what it is today, although the guys I know who have gone through it, you know, would say it's pretty much the same. But yeah, I mean we did. So you get selected, it's be an INFTU officer. Then you go to Introscer course. The first two days or something is an in doc, which was the hardest physical thing I had ever done.

At that point in my life. So I you know, I've been in sports in high school and in college and been through oster cannon at school and TVs. But the most difficult thing I had ever done up to that point. I've done other things since then, but was that ind doc. And then if you if you don't pass the end do you get a second chance to do it? If you fail it the second time? Again, this was back in the old days twenty years ago, you would be recycled to another MS. They didn't let you continue. That's I think that's still what I think, that's what they still do. And I've heard that from multiple people that that end doc is extremely hard, and that is the reason why so many female lieutenants that have tried to go to Infantry Officers course have

failed is because that end doc breaks them and they get hurt. I think there have been some that have gone through now. Though. What's crazy about the end DOC too, is it's not just physical, although it's extremely physical, there's a big navigation portion. They kind of drop you off in the woods of Quantico and you have to navigate to some points. So the entire thing is kind of a navigation exercise and along the way. There are a lot of physical aspects to it, and they do what it's called a Kym's game, which is, you know, as you're moving from place to place, you're given like like twelve objects and you have to remember them, and so there's a test at the ends. It's the craziest thing. And what's

what's crazy about it is if you go to a ranger school or one of the other selection courses, you would go through a prep phase before you got there, and an infandropser course you're expected to show up ready to pass that end dock, and then from the end dock. It's a ten week course and seven of those weeks are in the field. So it's crazy because it is a very difficult course. I won't say I loved every minute of it, because I didn't, but I really did. I was very thankful to be a part of it. To me, it was like that was the pinnacle of the military right to be an infandrosser in the Marine Corps. We weren't playing games anymore. It wasn't OCS, it wasn't even TBS. These were captains who are running this course. I think there were thirty five lieutenants

so it's very small. You're kind of the only thing going on, and it's all about learning because your next step is to go and take a presumably a rifle platoon. So they're not trying any more to break you. They're trying to equip you to go out and lead marines. So it was man for me. It was the best thing that I had ever been through in my life. Did you feel adequately adequately equipped? You know when you got to the fleet after leaving there were you're like, all right, I can do this, let's go. Yeah. I did until I got until I got there. I always tell the story of the first day I stood in front of a rifle platoon. And again, I'd been planning this forever, right, and so I started thinking early on what am I gonna say when

I get that platoon in front of me? And I was ready to go, and I mean I remember, like I can think about it right now, that platoon forming up. Our platoon sergeant was gone for some reason, and so it was the platoon guide who called an order. I got out there, I introduced myself. I probably said like three sentences, and I was so overwhelmed by the experience and by the fact that these are real Marines sitting in front of me. You know, these guys have already deployed, they've already this is peace time, but they had been in the Marine Corps a long time and now I'm supposed to be leading them, right, And it was so overwhelming. I walked away from that, and that guide, our guide came up to me. He's like, hey, sir, can

I talk to you real quick? Sure? He's like, yeah, that wasn't real good. Yeah, thank you for that. He's like, you need to show more confidence when you talk to the Marines. But I really was. I was like in that moment, so overwhelmed. And then I you know, it's one of those things you have the knowledge and certainly, you know, tactically, I felt very proficient. I understood weapons systems and you know, employment and deployment and all the all the things that needed to be done to operate in a rifle company and in the larger battalion. So I had that knowledge, but actually running a rifle platoon, I had a platoon stardant at the time who a few years ago retired as a startant major, so he was incredible staff start as apata. He had been the acting

platoon commander for about six months. The platoon was out with without a platoon commander. So you'd been there, you'd come off the drill field trained scout sniper. The guy was absolutely incredible. And I say this often. He's the one that taught me how to be a platoon commander. I had received the knowledge in school. I you know, again, I knew the stuff I needed to know, but actually functioning as a platoon commander, he's the one that taught me that, and you know, very very grateful to him for that. So that was in two thousand. We would end up in Iraq. In two thousand and three, he had stayed in the battalion.

He had moved on to to lead our scout sniper teams in the battalion. So in Iraq, I would still you know, this is a few years later and I'm in a very different environment with a very different unit, but I would still go to him for advice. He was the guy that really helped me understand, you know, this is what it means to take that knowledge and actually lead in a combat environment. That name sounds really familiar for some reason. I wonder if I wonder if I worked with him at some point. Potentially when you when you got there and you know, you're you're trying to pick up and I don't know, how long do you do you think it took you before you like felt comfortable. You're like, all right, you know, I'm I'm kind of in the groove. Now we're we're

working, we're operating. Yeah, you know, it didn't take long. So when I when I got there, when I checked in, we were on the front end of a pre deployment cycle, so we were about six months out from doing what it was, a UDP to Okinawa. And so what really helped me was we started training right away. In fact, I checked in to the company. Cal Worth was my company commander. Cal Worth is a two star general. Now he is third Marine Division Commander CG.

But then he was you know, Captain Worth, and uh I checked in and Mike platoon was in the field and and he's like, hey, when are you gonna go, you know, link up with your platoon. And I was like, well, sir, they're in the field, so I'll wait till next week. He's like, no, you won't. You'll go link up with them tomorrow. You're gonna be in the field tomorrow. And so we started training, you know, right away, and that helped me a lot. I mean that really fast tracked the feeling comfortable with the Marines, getting to know the Marines, understanding how to run live fire events, how to run training events. Yeah. Yeah, so it didn't take long, but it required getting thrown right in. Yeah for sure. That's funny.

No, you're going tomorrow. Actually that happened to me when I got to the MEW. I showed up. I knew they were getting ready to start an exercise and I was leaving Anglico and checking in and I waited till like eighteen hundred on a Friday, and showed up to check in and I walked in and the entire staff was there, and I'm like, what the f I go up to the duty. I was like what the hell?

And my fire's officer, Major Graham at the time, came out and he was like, uh, what's up man. He's like, you're the new fire chief and I was like yeah. I was like, yeah, what are you guys doing here? He's like, welcome to the mew. He's like, uh, we're getting on ship on Sunday. So and I'm like, dude, I was like, who's we and he's like, oh, you're coming, And I'm like, damn it. Yeah, training never stops, right, and it doesn't matter when you show up. But yeah, that's the way, that's the way it goes. Man. I had literally I had literally just come from an exercise in Louisiana with Anglico, checked out, got back from Louisiana the next day, checked out of Anglico, and then the next day checked into the MEW and it was just like I'm going

back out again. Here we go. Yeah, that's the that's the fun part about it. Is it weird? Is it weird knowing someone that you work with as a general now? Oh yeah, man, I mean my so my lieutenant class, right, like the guys who went through with me, uh who stayed in are either lieutenant colonels or colonels. And all the company commanders I know who again have stayed in, have our general officers.

Yeah, it's weird more because of the time that passes you just don't think of it. You kind of in those terms. But oh yeah, yeah, pretty pretty strange. I was running the Marine Corps Marathon this year in DC and one of the company commanders who was at one five when I was there. Jason Morris is a one star and you know, we kind of kept in touch loosely over the years. And I was running Marine Corps Marathon and you're backed up anyone who's done it. You know, there's forty thousand runners, and so you're backed up. It takes a while to get to the start line. And so I got to the start line and he was standing there in uniform. Is the craziest thing. So you've got a general and kind of his his staff standing there at the start line of the Marine

Corps Marathon and gave him a hug and kind of a high five, and yeah, it's it's a super weird you know, ty years later is kind of a weird thing. Like I used to drink with you, like I remember, Yeah, that's funny. I always it's always an interesting thing when I talk to officers, like older officers that know that, people that are generals and stuff, it's like it's gotta be weird because you know, you know how it is. I mean, second lieutenants are just as bad as lance corporal's. They're out there being ridiculous and stuff. Yeah, maybe worse sometimes, right, Yeah, it's it's pretty weird, but yeah, it's cool too. You know, it's good to see. And I'll say this to that point, is it is good to see. It brings comfort to

me that the Marine Corps in good hands, right, And I know that's not universally true. I know they're bad officers, but a lot of the guys I served with who are still leading are doing a great job, and I'm really thankful for that. Yeah. Yeah, another question before we move on to the rest of your career. I like to ask I haven't asked them a little while, but I like to ask some of the officers that come on with today's technology, with the ability to learn so much from just going on YouTube and stuff like that, it's almost like, you know, going to a college lecture twenty years ago. You can just go on to literally pull up college lectures on stuff. Do you think it's Do you think that it still should be a requirement for officers to have a college degree or

do you think that there's room to add in other people? Because I've always considered, and I'll give you an example that I always use is that if I maybe when I am eighteen years old, and I graduated from high school, I go and join the union, and I go through an apprenticeship program and I become a journeyman. Haven't I also proven that I can complete a task, you know, and move into a higher position and stuff like that.

I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I so I like the model that you know, the Army uses. We have warre officers in the Marine Corps as well, but the Army is very good about promoting two warrants and using warran offsers in you know, just about every capacity. And I like that model. I don't know that I could be wrong about this, but I don't know that college has always really been about education as much as it's been about kind of vetting a person, you know, trying to learn. Can they stick with something for four years? Can they go through the process and meet standards, whatever the standards are, and get through on the other side. But I'm with you. I knew so many people in the Marine Corps that, you know, after a period of time, had

done the hard things, had had even done the academic work. And you know, it's kind of a misnomer to think that the officers are all are the only ones with degrees. I mean, you know how many enlisted Marines have advanced degrees. There's a lot of them because they apply themselves and you know that they go to school and better themselves, and a lot of them have you know, kind of side hustles are working on. So yeah, I don't think college is the only way, certainly to evaluate. I just think it's the simplest way probably, which is probably why it's been I don't know why we held on it, but there probably is a better way.

There's a lot of tradition wrapped up in that too, and I've never I've never been of the opinion that you're better because you went to college. I know a lot of really really dumb officers who did pretty well in college. I mean even you know academy graduates who you're like, man, how in the world age you get in b did you finish? And see like did you put that uniform on yourself? Because you're just not that smart? Right, that's funny. So I don't I don't think it definitely necessarily demonstrates that someone's you know, more capable or smart. It's just an easy way to evaluate for the officer Corps. Yeah, for sure, yeah, you're right.

One of my first platoon sergeants, who was an infantryman, he his before he joined he had gotten a degree, a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering. Yeah, you know, but he was like, yeah, I was working and I was bored, so I joined the Marines, right, you know, I wanted to try this out for a little bit. And he's like, and then when I get out, I'm gonna use my g I be able to go back to college and hang out with college checks and get a master's. Yeah. And I was like, Okay, there's a lot of super educated, you know, enlisted Marines, And it is crazy.

People always think, like I hear this all the time. I'm sure you've heard this too, is well you go in the military because you can't do anything else or whatever, and it's just it's just patently false, Like it's not true. And I'm sure it's true for some people, sure, but generally speaking, that is not the case. And the number of like attorneys and business owners and whatever that I know personally who I served with when they were PSC's and lance corporals who like you like just mentioned, they went in for the experience. They got the experience and they got the GI bill and they went and they're changing the world. Like that story is told over and over and over again. So yeah, the college thing is weird to me.

I think it's just a tool. It's always been used and yeah, yeah, yeah, that's especially true in the reserves. There's so many Oh they all have their real jobs. So it's like literally like lance corporals that are lawyers and stuff. It's like, right, they are the barracks lawyer for real. Yeah, I think the I think, in my opinion, one step in the right direction would be to be like, hey, we have the me SEP program, which is really good, but I think even with that, we shouldn't require everyone. Like if I think you're an enlisted guy and you've done a really good job, then why do I need to send you off to college for three years or four years where you could get hurt, where you could decide you don't want to do it anymore. Why

not just go and send you straight to OCS. You know what I'm saying, Like, if you if you are good in your job, and you've shown like overall that you're good, you've been vetted by the officers above you and stuff, and I know that's I know, that's kind of what the warrant officer program is for. But most jobs you can't apply for the warrant officer program until later on. And there's just not that many warn officers, Like you said, the Marine Corps doesn't use warrnan officers like the like the Army and stuff does. I think there's a better way, you know, and there's you know, there's that limited duty officer program too, which a lot of roll into that. Yeah, and seeing an LDO is like seeing a unicorn, Like, there just aren't very many. But I think that's

a good answer too, right, is they're commissioned officers, but limited duty, so you know, they've proven proficiency in one MS and so it keeps them in the MS. That's That's kind of the other thing about direct commissioning is how many people, you know, you come from fire support background, right, how many people are capable of being high level fire support and also really good at logistics and also really good at this other thing and really good at this other thing. So I definitely like the idea of like warrant officer where it's like you're an expert in this area. Yeah, and you are a recognized expert in this area, and we're not going to mess with you.

We're not moving you somewhere else. We're not going to throw you into some other ms. But I just don't know that there's a perfect answer to any of it. No, No, there's not. It's a it's just an idea I keep throwing out there because there's a better way to do it. And I think with when the military is looking for or ways to improve retention, you know, the thought that I could possibly jump into the officer Corps by doing a good job my first four years. I mean that would motivate some people, you know, and not have to go through college.

You know, I knew, and I know I keep talking about this, but I knew a guy who was a great n c O, great marine, awesome at his job, super nice guy. But he could barely read. And I didn't know this until we were sitting in a briefing one time and someone called him out in front of the unit to read a slide.

He could almost not read the slide, you know, And it's like that dude could could be a He's a really good leader. I mean he's an n c O doing stuff, but his inability to read would probably hurt him if he tried to go to college or something like that. You know, sure, yeah, sure. Anyways, we move on from that. So you're at You're at Fifth Marines. You guys do the UDP. At what point when you're there, does nine to eleven happen? We had? Yeah, So I think we had probably been back from that UDP for about six months and you know, I was on the rifle range and we got the They stopped training and someone came on the you know, on the loudspeaker and explained what had happened, and everything was so confusing then no one knew exactly

what it meant or what it was going to mean. I remember asking or having a marine come up to Me's like, hey, sir, you know, does this mean that we're we're going to war? And I was like, oh, no, there's no I mean, so, remember, right, we had been in a long period of peace and the conflicts we had had kind of in the nineties, even including Desert Storm, were very air heavy. There was some ground conflict, but not much, and so it was just kind of the thought to me was that's what's going to happen.

Special operations are going to go, there's gonna be a lot of air you know, that kind of thing. But will we'll never deploy. And he reminded me of that when we were standing in Iraq, you know, a couple of years later. But yeah, so I was on the rifle range and we found out about it and it didn't mean anything right away, but within about a month, our battalions started getting ready to deploy actually Afghanistan.

We were going to be there in support of the special Operations units who were making their way there, and then we got pulled off that mission at the last minute. We had Marines at March Areaserve Base loading planes on Christmas Eve of two thousand and one and we were told to stand down Christmas Eve.

Yeah. So so then we were re kind of cycled back into the UDP program and started getting ready for another Okanawa deployment, which thankfully didn't happen. But that's man, You talk about a depressing a couple of days in a Marine Infantry battalion at the roller coaster of emotions right there. And we had you know, we had trained through Thanksgiving, we had trained through all the holiday holidays. There was no Christmas and then on Christmas Day we're you know, hey, have Christmas Day with your family. The twenty sixth, we all went back in for a you know, a giant formation, and like I mean, I think most of the officers who were there in that formation, we were pretty wasted because they had drunk themselves to death the night before,

right, and I mean it was just we're ready for this thing, and then it just got called off. And we had a bunch of marines who had been stopped lost and they were super happy. It was the craziest, craziest couple of days. Did they release them after that though, if they didn't stop lost? Oh, okay, I did. Yeah, I think thirty they gave them thirty days or something like that, and yeah, and let them go. So for those who don't know real quick, the stop loss or that was early g Watt. You know, they were they sent out a letter if you were eas Is on this date or earlier, you're not getting out. You're extended for whatever time frame. And that was also really big when they were doing recalls, they were recalling people from the

Act of Ready reserves. Yeah, my first deployment to Iraq, we had four or five recalls and we actually were over staff for the deployment and they sent active duty guys back to their units and left the recall dudes on the deployment man. Those guys were pissed. Yeah, yeah, well so so the Marines at one five prior to nine to eleven. It was it was one of those periods of time, right, they had done two udps in their four years, done two udps. Nothing really significant happened. The command climate wasn't good before there was a changeover in command, so it was just it was like not a fun place to be and then those guys got stopped lost, so it was just not a great environment. But then we trained,

we got ready, New officers came in, new staff, incos came in, there's new leadership. But those Marines who had been stopped lost, they hated their lives, They hated the Marine Corps, they hated us, they hated uniforms, they hated America like they hated everything. So when that stop loss was lifted, what a weird We lost half the battalion. Yeah, it was so crazy crazy. I want did after nine to eleven, did you see a lot of people are planning on getting out reenlist. I don't remember that. I mean that may have been the case, but I don't from where I was sitting, I don't remember that. Yeah, I feel like you're either go one way or the other. You're like, oh, you know this is the time, you know, this is my time

to step up, or you're like whoo oh getting out of this just in time, you know, not having to go deal with that. And when we were told to stand down, so you're not going to Afghanistan that was two thousand and one, you're going to now get ready for UDP. A lot of the Marines who probably would have fit in or would have reenlisted, like, yeah, I can't do that. This war is going to be over in three months. There's no reason for me to stay in. We just came out of basically ten years of peacetime. We're gonna go back into a peacetime Marine corps. And so it was super demoralizing, even for good Marines who were like, yeah, no, I'm not I'm not gonna do that again, and we're not going. They just told us we're not going,

and so this battalion will never see war. You know, five fifth Marines, the most decorated regiment the Marine Corps deployed more places than any other regiment of the Marine Corps, right, and and we're sitting there going we're never going to deploy a war. So it caused a lot of good people to get out. Yeah that's a bummer. Yeah for those that don't know a UDPS like you're going and training in Japan and some of the other nations around the Pacific. There, Uh, there's time on ship time off ship.

I didn't I never did one, but I did do them, youw. And being on ship for any amount of time is that fun. So I could see like, oh, we're not going to Afghanistan to strike back, We're gonna go get on ship. Nah, I'm okay. Well, and you know, I mean the thirty first MEW. So that's what we were on, was the thirty first U. The thirty first U has never deployed to combat in history. Done some humanitarian missions and things like that, but never deployed to combat. So it's pretty well known throughout the Marine Corps.

You end up on the thirty first MEW, it doesn't matter what else is happening in the world. Strategically, that's an important locations in Japan and so that's where you're going to be. You're not going to the fight, whatever the fight is. And so that was like, Hey, you're not deployed to Afghanistan and oh, by the way, you're going to Okinawa.

So yeah, it's like, yeah, we'll never we'll never fire a live round ever. So when did that switch again? So we started to get ready and and train. We did all of the work up throughout two thousand and two and even had an advanced party in Okinawa. We had received the advanced party back from the unit that was there, I think two to five was in Okinawa and we were going to replace them, so you know, their advanced party back was with us. We had sent marines there, and sometime in December of two thousand and two, the order came down, Hey, you're not going to Okinawa. The advanced party that just came back from two five is being sent back to Okinawa. Your advanced party in Okinawa is coming back to Camp Pendleton, and you guys are going to Kuwait. And

it happened that fast, and so we went from It may have been earlier than December, it may have been like the end of November, but we went from you know, getting ready for this GUDP to different uniforms, different gear, putting in gear requests, putting in live fire training requests, and went from you know, kind of a standard programmed get ready for a regular deployment to what do you want? What do you need? Where would you like to train? How many days do you want to be out training?

And it got really crazy. Is he really fast? Yeah? Yeah, I mean always flexible. You know, that's simply to to be lifestyle. That's crazy. That's a literally a year of different like emotions of like what is I'd be like, what is going on right now? What do we do? Yeah, we were all over the place and you know, again no one was in Iraq then, so that wasn't even on most people's radar.

I mean it was something that's being talked about over here. But through two thousand and two, Afghanistan was you know, was the only thing happening, And so that kind of turn was Yeah, it was. It was pretty crazy. It was good for marines, It was really bad for families. I mean it was it was a crazy time. Yeah. It's funny like if you're outside the military or whatever, you probably don't get it.

But the Marines. A lot of Marines to be excited like yes, right, yeah, you're right, we want to do this. You know, I'm pumped. You know, it's hard for people that are outside of the that world to understand, like, you you want to go into the war, what like, what is that mindset? And you're like, dude, it's it's like being on a football team and practicing every day but never actually playing the game. Yeah, you want to go in and play the game at least once. Yeah, that's exactly right. And we were getting ready to deploy in January anyhow, so you know you're already in that mindset of we're leaving, and so it's like, oh, we're not leaving, like you know, to use your analogy, We're not leaving to go practice,

We're leaving to go play. And so it it was Yeah, it was good for Marines, but it was really hard on families because then it's an open ended we have no idea what it's going to look like, how long this is going to last, what it's going to mean. Yeah, because I think in the Golf War, they sat in the desert for many months.

I think at least six months. Yeah, it was a long time. Yeah, it was a long time. Yeah, we had no idea. You know, it's it's crazy too, and it's important to say how flexible and adaptable marines are to a new mission and new what I mess you know, I speaks to our training and it's very you know, we can adjust our training to different environments. But how how quickly the family's adjusted?

How quickly the Key Volunteers program, you know, which is basically the network of wives who are now going to start taking care of each other and you know, meeting regularly and checking in with each other, Like how fast kind of all of that stood up was pretty incredible as well. So when you see that and people who haven't lived through that as a family member, you really don't understand it. But it's crazy to see military families take care of each other, and particularly in the uncertainty of moments like that, how they really rally together. Yeah, it's it's a pretty pretty phenomenal thing to watch all those pieces come together that quick. Yeah, the families, Man, they're along for the ride. You know, they didn't sign up for that.

And often I forget, you know, I think we all a lot of us do forget, Like how much angst and stuff that causes when you're doing different things. For us, it's just another day of work, Like, Okay, I gotta go here, I'm going here for training, I'm going to do this. I'm gonna you know, got another deployment coming out, especially when Global War on Tear was really going and deployments were pretty you know, you knew there was like a pretty decent schedule, like we knew when we were going. But yeah, man, it's tough for them.

It's good, it's good to see. But you do what you gotta do. You know, that's kind of thing. How long were you guys, How long were you guys in Kuwait before the actual call came down like this is happening. Yeah, we got into Kuwait. I don't know the date, but it was early in January, and you know, we spent a couple of months. We'd go up to the border and we sit on the border for a few days and we pulled back. We did a lot of li fire training and it wasn't until March nineteenth. So as we record, it was, you know a week ago or something like that, you know, twenty whatever years ago, twenty two years ago, twenty one years ago.

But yeah, so whatever that is January February of March, so probably a month and a half, two months or something like that, where we we sit out there and then move up to the border and sit there and pull back, and we kept doing that until eventually we pushed all the way across the border. Could you see before you guys actually pushed across, did you have eyes on any kind of Iraqi troops on the other side of the border. Not troops. We our first objective was on the other side of the berm, you know, that was at the border, and so that was, you know, a pretty big obstacle that was blown and we moved through. But our first actual objective on the Iraqi side was it's called a gas oil separation plant and it's where pipelines came together and were processed, so

it's kind of like a factory. So we could see the factory and we knew that was there, but as far as you know, enemy soldiers on the objective, they were dug in and we definitely figured that out when we got across the border, but we couldn't see them from where we were. Did the like enormity of the situation resonate with you were you're like, holy shit, like we're invading a country right now. Not really, man, it's crazy. It really is crazy. No, and it should have, right, And some of that speaks to like training. So you know, koy Iraq, it feels like you're in twenty nine Palms. So I've done this before, right, We've done this training before. I think there's something also in the back of your mind that's like this probably isn't going to happen.

You know. You can think about desert storm, you can think about some other times when we would do a show a force thing and then nothing happened. So so no, I don't think so. Then we started doing these huge sand table exercises where on the ground models of the first objectives were built and the key staff in the division. General Madis was our division commander, so his staff and then we would all stand off on the sidewatches.

They'd walk through these giant models that were built on the ground to you know, demonstrate where people were going to be and what that was going to look like. And it felt very much like a training environment. Again, if you've done a cas out in twenty nine Palms, it's all the same stuff. Where it became more real was when we had a British unit showing up who were going to relieve us in place. When we got to the first objective, you started to meet your like foreign counterparts, and then they started to do casualty assessments. We believe, you know, it's coming down from a division. We believe that X number of enemy soldiers are on the other side, and if that's true, then we'll probably lose x number of you

know, American troops in the first couple of days of the war, and so you start talking about casually collection plans and the rest of it. But still it felt a lot like, I mean, I've done this, right, I did this on deployment. I've done this in twenty nine palms. I've done this. You know since I got into the Marine Corps, we've been talking exactly like this. Then you're seeing maps. Where it became real to me was I mean, there's two times we breached the Burman in the middle of the night, so there's so much going on. The artillery in the sky was absolutely incredible, and it was all assisted, so it's like burning in the sky, right, And so it was probably was thousands of rounds. You're watching that as we're making our way toward the border. The

breach is blown. So I'm the second vehicle back in our battalion and we start to make our way through the breach. Where it became real real was when the tracer rounds started coming back toward us. And then and then immediately your brain goes, wow, that we're not training anymore, Like this is real, this is man and that just that quick. It changes so fast, and then you start to see, you know, things and people on fire. You see so many different things that maybe you've seen in a movie, maybe you've read about in a book, but you have been told your entire life it's not supposed to be this way, and it's just mass chaos.

And so it became real as we started moving toward the objective. But it wasn't real up until that point, which is it's strange to think about, but again I think that speaks to training and a lot of other things. I mean, it would be strange if it wasn't the way you trained, right, it'd be runny. It's funny how it's like, wow, this is just like training. Well, yeah, that's what train like training.

Yeah, that's the point. But I know what you're saying, and I think it it It lowers the anxiety level because it's like, oh wow, Okay, this is not the first time I've been through this kind of exercise, right, We've done this before, and so it's going to be the same. Well it was the same until it wasn't right when you're rolling through minefields and having people shoot back at you. But but but the mechanics of it were the same, which is obviously super helpful. Tracer fire is always something where we were like, oh shit, because you can actually see how close stuff is. Yeah, You're like, oh man, that's real.

That's like, you're come in this direction. What are they doing shooting at us? Yeah, exactly. I always remember I always talked about my first night and singing, and we were at the FOB and we're sitting there. We were grilling steaks with the advisor team that we were taking over for and because they were leaving the next day and they were all pumped, so they got some steaks and we're sitting there and there's like tracer fire that's just flying right over the top of the hescoes. I was like, oh shit, you know like they're like, yeah, you know what happens this kind of part of it. I'm like, oh, man, okay, well this is this is interesting. You have some taliband dudes trying to shoot at one of the Afghan posts. It was a pretty common event, but it

was just like, wow, this is weird. We're just sitting here hanging out grilling steaks with this tracer fire like ten feet above us or something. Just like whatever's that's the way of life here. It's weird too. Write how fast the human mind can can adapt to a new environment. It's super crazy at first, and then it's just kind of like what it is, Like, well, I guess, I guess this is what we're doing.

And then you do and yeah, you just move on. We just keep on keeping on, keep on. Yeah. Have you seen there's a documentary call or there's a documentary called Severe Clear. Have you ever heard of that? I haven't. There's an already guy I think he was. Did you guys go over on ship? Initially? No, we now we flew commercial into uh Kuwaiti International and got on buses. I'm trying to remember what una he was with. There was an already guy who documented the invasion back with you know, handheld camera and stuff like that. Yeah, and uh, it's pretty graphic. I don't know what it's on anymore. It used to be on Netflix, but it's pretty graphic and it's like, oh shit.

And I think if people saw that, they'd be like yeah, because of how graphic it is. You're like, you see like the burning body on the side of the road and stuff. It's like, that's real life, man, That shit is happening in other places, like Americans and people. A lot of people in general take it for granted that we live in a peaceful area. You know, there's crime and stuff, but there's no car bombs going off. You know, there's no yeah, cruicide bombers blowing up, there's no random like, I don't know's we live in a peaceful environment.

I think we take it for granted sometimes. Yeah, when you guys were moving up, what were you in? Were you in AVS or were you guys in like Humvy's or what. Our battalion was split, so I was the platoon that I was responsible for was called the counter mechanized platoon, and our battalion had taken For those that are familiar with Cat teams. Combined anti armour teams. Typically you have two platoons. You have hum v's with the heavy machine guns fifty caliber machine guns and Mark nineteen automatic grenade launchers, and then you have a platoon with tow missile launchers on them. Our battalion had taken those two and combined them into one platoon, so that was my platoon. So I was I had eighteen hardback on these all the heavy guns,

all the anti armor, we had javelin systems, all the anti armor, and all the tow vehicles. So that's what we were in. And then we had all our logistics folks were in like high back hum v's, which there was no protection in any of it. And then we had amtracks as well for you know, like so we were special operations qualified, right, so we had air or helo company, boat company, and then track company. But there everyone was moving in tracks, and so yeah, it was it was super weird. In fact, the hum v's that we were in had been taken off of NPS shipping, so it's the maritime pre deployment or prepositioning shipping. So around the world for those again that aren't familiar, around the world, there are ships and then secret locations that have all the

equipment you would need to go into a country in like forty eight hours or something. And when we went to Kuwait, they pulled those off. So the hum v's that we were in were like nineteen ninety one era. They had to retro fit them for some of the equipment that they put on them. We couldn't use the blue Force trackers and we called them the dact at the time, but couldn't use it because our vehicles couldn't power them and the radios. So our armor was us using sand bags to sandbag as much of the hum vy as we could. I had a sappy plate that I took out of my plate carrier and sat on because we didn't have any you know, any protection underneath us. And then we sandbaged the rest of the bottom of the hum V, which we hit a mine. So that's what you

kept us from from dying inside. So yeah, not like it is now, and you know, not to compare one way or the other, but we had no armored vehicles at all. And the am tracks, man, they're they're great, but they were not made to travel that way that long, and so they broke down constantly. The vehicle situation was was a pretty crazy situation. That'd be miserable to be in the back of an amtractor.

I've never written a track I Sawhow Made It twelve years and two mus and never wrote in an Amtrak. But I've never heard a good thing about writing in the back of an Amtrak unless you're the driver, you know, right, those guys love it, but anyone that has to ride in the back has always been like, dude, miserable ride and and those dudes were stuffed in with NBC gear on and just yep man. Yeah, yeah, not a good situation. And then if you make contact, they go from being you know, locked down inside of that to the hatch, you know, the back hatch coming open and they're rolling got into like, where are we right they've been Yeah, it's it's it's a terrible situation. Thankfully we don't do that anymore. But that's that was the way. That was the way.

Yeah. When you so you were part of the cat team, you were you guys actively you guys weren't like hunting armor. You were more protection from armor for the column, right. Yeah, so when we pushed across the border, there were some like old T fifty fives and some older kind of Soviet era tanks that we engaged with javelins. First javelin kill, you know, first live javelin kill was within probably an hour of us making our way to the border. And those were newest at the time, right, javelins are still pretty y, yeah, brand new. It's so we were one of the units. One to five was one of the units that tested those for raytheon. So I had like two marines who had fired them in testing and that was you know, they're one hundred and whatever thousand dollars apiece,

so you can't shoot them. When we went to the Amo supply point before we pushed across the border, I think I picked up forty of them or something crazy and they were stacked all over our home vs. So, yeah, they were brand new and our guys use them very effectively. We were taking toe shots on things like like trucks. I don't know what the equivalent is, but we have you know, we have five tons, so you know, huge diesel trucks. They're equivalent to that big you know, vehicles or buildings. We would take toe shots on at distance, so we weren't really dealing with armor that much. We did in the first couple of hours of the war, but then we really really never dealt with armor again.

We would see from time to time as we made our way to Baghdad, we would see Iraqi tanks and armor that had been immobilized by our air and so our air did a good job of taking care of those. And so in the first couple hours of the war we had some some shots on armor, but most of it for us was you know, long range shots on vehicles and things like that. Did no, I don't at that time did the toe gunners used. Was it called the saber or something like that?

Is that the optic that was on the toe they had the man you're calling me back twenty years now, it was the the flear on the on the javelin and whatever. The basic site was on the toe, So it wasn't the It was the toe tube, not the Bravo. So it was an older system, okay, because those have really good optics on them, yeah, they and they do have good daytime optics, not great at night what we were using. But yeah, as the sun came up and it's flat, so they could see everything on the battlefield, so we were able to deal with some potential threats at a pretty good distance. What was it like when your first dude got a javelin shot off? Like, was everyone like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it came across

the radio, so I think everybody in the battalion was pretty excited about it. Yeah, it was, it was a yeah, it was super cool. Again, you're kind of still in training mode right at that point because you're not seeing you know, soldiers per se, you're seeing vehicles and other things on the battlefield. But yeah, it was. It was awesome.

It was awesome, and we trained so much in simulators and you know, to see it come together in real time was was pretty pretty awesome. Now, when did you start seeing enemy soldiers? So when we got a across the border. The reason we're supposed to push it is supposed to be a daylight movement, daytime movement. So again this is kind of a side but all of our markers were visual markers. We had marked like our link up routes, were we dropped. So again you come from this community. So dpicm, which are bomblets that are dropped out of artillery, were all over our first objective, and that's helpful in one sense, but in the other sense it's not because now you've got basically a minefield that we set up that's

all over the objective. Well, those lanes through the minefield were supposed to be marked with engineer tape, like white cloth tape, right, and we would see that on the ground. We would be able to move through that. Our linkups. Everything was visual. Well, the Iraqi military started to light the oil pipeline which goes right through that area into that gas oil separation plant. It started lighting on fire, so there's a lot of smoke in the air. But because of that, we're trying to preserve that right, and so because of that, the timeline to execute was moved up about ten hours and we made a nighttime movement into the country instead of a daytime, which created so many issues as you can imagine. That's why we ran over

a mine in my vehicle, and you know a lot of crazy stuff happened because of that. But it was dark. But once we got across the border and got to the facility and to our objective, there's so much going on. You know, there's artillery, we're having a loom set up so we can see the battlefield, and then there's a lot of things on fire, buildings, dug in positions, people and so that's when you started to see you know, enemy soldiers and then you just see people moving all over the place. You can't tell who's who or what's what and where we were.

And this is what was different about when we went into the country and what happened later where we were. Wherever we were was the forward edge of battle. So anything in front of us was considered to be hostile. And you know, take that how you will, I guess, but for us that really simplified things because if someone was standing up in front of us, particularly that first night, they were considered to be a bad guy. So we engaged a lot of targets that night. As the sun came up the next day, there were a lot hundreds and hundreds of Iraqi soldiers that were surrendering, and so then we started to you know, kind of turn our attention to processing them. Some were trying to get away, some were still

trying to fight. So a very confusing time. But it wasn't long after we got across the border that we started recognized, like, these are real people. And you know they're trying to do us harm or because of our indirect and air you know, they've already been dealt that blow. Yeah yeah, and you can it's easy to get bogged down too if you start processing a lot of prisoners, because that's been Yeah. I mean, that same thing happened in the Gulf w I believe is we just had thousands and thousands of Iraqi soldiers like nope, I'm good, yeah, take me in.

Yeah yeah. For us, we didn't, so you know that was unique to us crossing the border. That happened there, it didn't happen again as we were moving north. So the only time we had anyone's surrender to US was there. But it was hundreds of soldiers and you know, kind of the intel at the time was all the conscripts, you know, the soldiers who don't want to be in the military, you don't, you know, they're not down for the cause. They all got sent to the southern border, and so as soon as they could, a lot of them, uh surrendered. And there was a real difference between those guys and the Iraqi Republican Guard where they called them who were also there, and we had to actually you know, dig out a hole and and kind of engage with them because

they were engaging us. Yeah, how are the civilians reacting? Like? I imagine you saw some civilian populace along the way. Yeah. Man, Probably the hardest thing is I think back to that time, was you know, so we we crossed the border, don't you know? Had that secured that objective in the south, and then made our way to Baghdad. The Battle of Bagdad on April tenth, two thousand and three. It was a major, major engagement in the city of Baghdad. And again wherever we were was the forward edge of battle, so we did our best to be careful about civilians. But the collateral damage was I don't know, I don't know how you put it into two numbers or contexts, but from my perspective, it was pretty enormous. The southern Romalia oil fields, that was our first

objective. There weren't civilians there. Everyone knew that that was a military, you know, a military operation. But as we continue to make our way north, Iraq is little farms and little villages and small communities and people trying to move around and get to work. And man, sometimes they did a good job letting us know they were doing that, and other times they didn't, and so a lot of people got hurt who shouldn't have. Likewise, we tried to help a lot of people along the way. So, yeah, that was the civilian thing was not at the time so much, but now when I think back to it is the hardest thing, hardest thing for me to think about and kind of kind of process through. It is what it is. But it was not a good situation. Yeah, I mean,

fuck, that's war, dude. It's unfortunate. I remember in saying in when we would be out and we would just see swarms of civilians like leaving a village, you know, or something that we were in. You just see all these women and kids and like goats all start leaving the area, and you're like, oh shit, here we go to happen. And you feel for those people because they're just trying to live their life. Man, They're just trying to do their thing. And you know, we got nothing against those people. We weren't out to hurt those people. Obviously, things happen where they do get injured or killed, especially when we had situations where like Taliban dudes would hold up with a family and a compound and shoot

at us thinking we're not going to drop a bomb on them. Well, we don't know there's civilians in there, so we just don't getting shot at. Yeah, man, it's a that's that's I think that's probably an issue a lot of people have with that, you know, with like being going to Iraq, going Afghanistan and stuff like that and seeing seeing the harm that can happen to people that have no you know, no fighting fight in it.

You know, it's crazy. And so that happened along the way, right, And I could give you specific examples of just people being in the wrong place at the wrong time, like you know, farmers who probably drove the same stupid dirt road every day of their lives, and today they've got a Marine infantry battalion set up in a security position that didn't know they were there, right, And they drive out of the same you know, brush line they've come out of every day, and then we engage because we don't know what it is, right. So you have those stories. But when we went into Bagdad, Bagdads, like the size of Los Angeles, I mean it's a huge city, it's a built up city. We went in we got ambushed, took us twelve hours to get to our objective. We

had over one hundred casualties, most wounded in action, not KIA. We did have some KIA, but so chaotic environment. And you know, the fighters there had taken up positions and buildings and they were raining down small arms fire but primarily RPGs all night long. And we're marine infantry betide it. I mean, there's twelve hundred marines. We had, you know, all of the organic weapons, you know, rifles and pistols, but then we had all of my weapons toes heavy machine guns that's fifty cows as Mark nineteen's all of the amtraks that were there had fifty cows a lot of seven six to two. So we had hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition. And to get from point A to point B. We fought our way through it

by using you know, thousands of rounds of ammunition to do it. And so it's it's that, right, you're trying to engage an enemy who's trying to kill you, but there are people living in those buildings, and there are people like just trying to get out of the way. And then we'd set up a security checkpoint when we're trying to you know, pass other troops behind us or set up for a counter attack or whatever. And you've got a family and we had this happen. Families got into the vehicle they had and they're just trying to get out of town and they're running straight at a security checkpoint that I have fifty cows set up on. You know, we don't know. We just saw an ambulance stop in the street and five bad

guys jump out with AK forty sevens. We have no idea who's what or why they're moving or whatever. You engage them and then you find out it was a family inside of that vehicle. So you have a lot of that happening, and again you just have to reconcile like we weren't there to hurt them. In fact, we brought a lot of medical care, a lot of humanitarian assistance, a lot of other things there to help them. But in that moment, my priority, you know, mission accomplishment and you know the safety security of my marines, and that's what we had to focus on.

At what point did you guys start implementing like like roes on vehicle checkpoints like using flares and stuff like that. Yeah, it was after we pulled out of Bagdad. So we were in Bagdad on April tenth, and we stayed there for I don't know several weeks when we pulled out, honestly, so April tenth, we were there, the tenth and the eleventh, a lot of fighting. It was just incredible. But after that, and I could tell a story, there was a counter attack planned. Fighters were holed up in a building across the street from where we were at A ten came on station and destroyed the building and everyone inside of it. That was the last round that that was fired while we were there. Nothing else happened.

We were patrolling on foot, we were rendering medical care and aid. We were doing all kinds of stuff in Baghdad without a single problem. And so once we got there, we didn't have those problems. We pulled out. The army moved in, and this is not a smack at anybody, but the army moved in. They started to patrolling the Bradley vehicle Bradley fighting vehicles and brought me much more kind of military approach and engaged some folks they shouldn't have engaged. And that started a whole you know, string of violence and Bagdad again, and that's when those rois we were instituted. So for us, the ROI was, if you think there's a threat, you can engage it, which is silly and very loose. But once kind of the kinetic

aspect of you know, that movement stopped and now we're stationary, the rules of engagement changed a lot. Yeah. Yeah, man, I mean how did you feel during this time as like a you know, being a rifle platoon commander, or being a platoon commander, or doing your job as an infantry officer. Yeah, I mean this again, this just sounds strange to probably everyone, but maybe not everybody, but I mean it was it was a dream come true in a sense. I mean it was what I had planned my entire life around. It was a dream I thought had kind of been taken away. And again it's not me, it's like right place at right time. But I had been a rifle patoon commander, then I got up move over to weapons company. Then we had a lieutenant move on,

so that entire thing was combined. So I, as a first lieutenant, had eighty four marines, I had eighteen vehicles. I had all the heavy heavy guns, all the anti armor assets in the battalion. When we got set to move, I worked directly for our operations officer. I navigated for the battalion. I was a second vehicle back in the entire movement. And then once we got into Bagdad, we had you know, special operations teams and other kind of you know, three letter agencies that were trying to gather intel and a lot of other people that were there, and we me and you know, my platoon would go on all of these operations with them to provide security. So it was I mean, I couldn't write a better script for myself. So yeah, it was, man, it was something I

could have only dreamed about being a part of. And I know it sounds strange, but to be able to do what you've trained, you know, a lot of your life to do and thought about for a lot of your life. And again going back to that book I read when I was a kid, thinking about these these monumental historical engagements that you know, people throughout history have been able to be a part of. It was a very proud time for me. Yeah, I mean, yeah, what an interesting time.

Man, that's so crazy. You know, a few people in history can say they've done something like that. So wow, Yeah, the war has changed a lot. And you know, I've you know, I worked for a veterans organization, so I talked to a lot of veterans, and I mean my deployment was relatively short. It was a very kinetic movement, and it was the last one that happened, right, So the war that went on for twenty years was ever again like it was for us. And so I can't even relate to you know, Sanging, and I have friends who are in Sang, and I can't I can't really relate to that.

I mean I understand it intellectually, but I wasn't a part of that or Remadi or Felujah like these. That was a different war than I was a part of. It was in the same place, but a different war than I was a part of. And so yeah, it was a very unique moment in history. Yeah, for sure, when you guys were moving up, how how did you did you guys use your mortars very much? How often were you using that? How hard was that for them to be employed?

Because I imagine if you're on the move most of the time, you know what are they gonna stop and place fire a couple of rounds and then displays. Yeah, not very often. We moved pretty quick, and you know, we always moved with like there was a moment. I tell the story about us getting in this this firefight on a bridge. Eleventh rans was was fire cap. We were the we were the only active unit in the country, so we had all of the indirect assets of the division available to us. Nice and so when it came to you know, our our mortar systems, our mortar platoon, and then the mortar men and the rifle platoons all acted as either provisional you know, rifletoons or you know, security set of security positions. But then we'd end up in you know, in a

city and they wouldn't set up there, so they served as a rifle more than anything else. Yeah. Yeah, man, it'd be cool to have to be on something like that and you have all the fire support assets that you want, like everything that you're beck and call also probably very uh nerve racking, I guess for like the JTAC and like the fire support coordinator that's got to coordinate all that while everyone's on the move, you know, constant updates to to fire caps, to the artillery location, constant updates to friendly locations like it's that's that's an environment where it's easy to see friendly fire incidents happening with you know, aircraft dropping, which we saw with the A tens and nazarea and artillery. You know, once you pull that string, that

round goes. So yeah, that's what a wild time man. Yeah, it was crazy too. We were using a map book. So before we made our way to the line of departure, we were given a map book. It was a you know eight and a half by eleven photo copied pages of maps, and that's what we're using to navigate. Are onboard military maps or like Ran McNally travel map, there were military maps, so they were all topographical maps. But that's what we had. And so before I left, you know, Camp Pendleton, I went to Target and I bought a GPS, like a cheap GPS, just to have it, and I ended up navigating our battalion basically from you know Kuwait to bag Dad by sticking my arm out the window to get a six digit grid and then finding it on

that in that map book and then reporting that back so that our fire support folks could could do their work because we were the kind of the lead lead element. So yeah, it was man like. Again, we didn't know any better, and I mean there are harder ways to do it than that. Things have changed an awful lot. Yeah, it's a it's a crazy thing to think about. It makes you feel very old. Yeah, yeah, oh, I mean it's such you know, you're talking about literally the opening days of an engagement. Where right, it's not like, you know, Afghanistan, We've been there for ten years and then okay, look we have maps of everything. Not only do we have maps of everything, we have every neighborhood sectored out, compound numbers listed, you know, like grgs.

I you know, but on my third deployment, I had my tablet. I think that was the first time I had a tablet that had all the map data in it for my area and all the grgs. And I could be talking to an aircraft and be like, hey, sector, you know sech a four F compound five and they're right on it, and they have the same tablet with the same map data, and they pull up a ten diga grid of that compound and they know exactly what, you know, like such a different time, right, you know, it's crazy, and you guys were working off of photo copied maps. But yeah, you to be even today, to be successful, you have to be able to do what you guys were doing. You know, the guys that come in and they see these tablets and all this gucci like electronics gear and stuff. It's

really cool stuff. A lot of it's awesome, but a lot of it it will fail on you at some point. And if you can't revert back to like doing a two point resection to figure out where the hell I'm at or something like that, then you're kind of worthless, you know what I'm saying. You got to know the basics, like brilliance and the basics of the reason and then you use all these like cool pieces of gear that we have talked to a friend of mine this week who was one of the company commanders in Desert Storm, so they were you know, he was in subn Marines made his way to the border of Koid at the time, I guess.

Anyhow, so he was a part of all that, and he was talking about how they got off ship and they got handed GPS, you know GPS is and you know this is ninety one, end of nineteen ninety and he's like, I'd never seen a GPS. No one knew how to use a GPS. So I think about where we were well before that. You know, they knew how to like use a compass, and we we learned that, but that's how they were navigating, you know, these kind of major engagements, right, So, yeah, every generation uses the tools they have, and that's the right way to do it. Yeah, the old plugger is probably what they're after, right, right, you guys are still using pluggers right at the beginning of the Oh yeah, they had now yeah

yeah, yeah, and your all your codes would go out and then nothing would work and oh yeah yeah yeah. The plugger is an old school GPS that the military had, and then it got replaced by the dagger, and then I don't know if they use anything else. A lot of people used we had, like for me, like when I would go out, I would have my dagger obviously, and then I would have a garment four tracks, which is the risks and I think a lot of people did that.

And now I think a lot of radios have GPS built in so you can even pull information off that. Yeah. Interesting, it could be wrong. Technology, man, Yeah, the war technology continues on. You know, how do you like, I mean, compare how we invaded Iraq and did that whole thing to like how Russia's trying to invade Ukraine. Two different situations obviously, but like their tactics. You know, imagine if we had lost hundreds of thousands of people, which is what's happening there right, Like, it's crazy that, I don't know, it's crazy how they're doing it, I think, compared to how we did something twenty something years ago. Yeah, I mean, and I think that's the difference between fighting a military and

you know, kind of dealing with a population. Right when we went into Iraq, the population hated Saddam and they hated the military, and they were really happy we were there. And so you know, when we were there again, I know a lot of that changed and there was an insurgency and you know how it kind of unfolded. But in the early days, we were you know, we were fighting a uniformed military and they represented a dictator and the country. The people that were there didn't support that. They they had to go along with it, but they didn't support it. So they were very happy we were there, so I think that was you know, what Russia's dealing with is trying to take a country from citizens that are unwilling

to let go of it. And there's a lot of other things going on politically there, but yeah, we were not dealing with that situation. And if you look at the history of insurgency and that kind of thing, taking the uniform off and fighting populations that don't want you to be there, countries don't win that unless they raise the entire country and start over, you know, and that's kind of what they're trying to do. It seems like, you know, they're yeah, they're leveling all these small towns that are on the outskirts, you know, on the edges, on the front lines of the battle. You see these videos afterwards, and it's literally just shells of buildings, like it's gone. It's crazy. Again, we don't realize a

lot of people don't realize how good we have it. You know. That's right, No, that's exactly right, exactly right. So I've talked to a bunch of Iraq veterans and some say they get they understand why the insurgency happened, and they don't really feel they understand why the insurgents were doing. They're like, hey, if someone invaded my country, I would have fought, you know, And they kind of maybe disagree to a certain degree of what they were doing, you know, or or were sent to do.

Do you ever have any questions about that or do you, you know, feel fine with with everything that transpired. Yeah, I mean, if I'm just being honest, I don't think we should have been there at the time. I agreed with the reasons that were given. It all made sense to me, and you know, I think at that moment in history, it made sense to most people. I do believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. I mean, even while we were there, there's cause to believe that some of those were attempted to be used on us. A lot of the intel that we were getting was, you know, the approval levels had gone pretty low in the military structure. The closer we got to Baghdad to use you know, gas and things like that, we had alarms go off

at one place where we were moving through an area. You know. Again, I think I think they were there. I think they got moved out to other places. So I don't think the intel was entirely bad. I think the reason that the United States got involved was not what we were told that it was. It's hard for me and I'm somewhat conflicted in this because I also know that when we went there, there were a lot of people who were helped. Some was an evil, evil dude. His sons were you know, not as smart as him, but certainly more statistic, and it was it was a terrible environment for those folks. We'd come across farmers who have fields that are plowed, but they can't get water because they have to pay for the water, right but they can't grow crops, so they

can't sell their crops, so they can't get the money for the water, so that SIT's empty and their families are you know, starving. I mean that was a normal situation, particularly in the southern part of the country. So you know, it's going there helped a lot of people, and it was a good thing for a lot of people initially for sure, and again things have changed a lot. But getting ridistadam is a good thing. You know, these are all good things. But but should we have been there, should we have lost the life? And you know, even where there wasn't loss of life, a lot of folks who are still struggling with their service. There was that the right thing in light of using kind of nine to eleven as a cover and all of that. I, looking back,

I don't think so. Again, I'm thankful for my service. I'm proud of my service. I'm proud of what we did. You know, I just mentioned that was kind of the highlight of my you know, one of the highlights of my life, not just of my time in the Marine Corps, but of my life, you know, getting very proud of what happened there and the Marines that served there, and you know, all of that.

But kind of on the more like geo political like should we have been there, should we have invested the life and the resources and everything else that we had have over twenty years? I don't think so. There are a lot of other places if we could go and deal with some really bad people and we don't. And you know, again there are reasons for that.

So yeah, I won't say I struggle with It's not like I spend every day thinking about it. But I certainly don't think that we were in the country doing what we were doing for for all the reasons that we were given. Yeah, yeah, no, I get that, and I think I really believe our bureaucrats fucked it up. You know, like the military did a really good job of pushing through and clearing stuff out, but the follow on actions were just yeah, one mistake after another, you know, and just completely like we should have been in and out of there real quick, and like, hey, we got the dude out. It's your country, you know, you guys need to take take ownership of it. And obviously we had to have some kind of residual force air to like stop the influence

of like Iran or someone installing a leader, you know, or something like that. But at the end of the day, it's their country, you know. It's kind of like Afghanistan. You know, it sucks that Afghanistan fell, but at the end of the day one, I think our pullout was fucked up. I think everything about that was messed up. And having been there to where we you know, I think that that was going to stake how they did it. But I'm also when people go, We'll think about the Afghans now, you know, think about the ones that are there still, and it's like, well, man, they had twenty fucking years to stop you know, the Taliban from coming in and taking over. Like we gave them every everything that they could have, every tool that they needed.

The only thing, you know, the thing that really messed it up was our politicians and our bureaucrats and coming in and accepting a certain level of corruption, you know what I'm saying. And when we when we accept a certain level of corruption from these people, then we're allowing them to do stuff that doesn't make sense. And that's how you end up with like Afghan troops that have like a magazine of AMMO and almost no food. You know, of course you're gonna, of course you're gonna turn your guns in when the Taliban comes and says, hey, you know, you can either drop your weapons or we're going to kill you all. And you know what do you have to fight back? Is you know, but what I'm getting at, I know I'm rambling a little bit, but is it sucks that the military

goes in and does what they're supposed to do, and they do it, you know, the best of their ability, but then all of that is kind of screwed over by a failure of planning and failure of action from our bureaucrats and politicians that are supposed to come in and you know, I don't know, you guys took the city, you guys took the country. You know, you did, you did your part. I mean, I would like to believe that it is just a you know, failure of leadership and poor planning and all of those things. What what bothers me more is looking back on definitely Iraq and you know, even even Afghanistan and wondering, you know, was it a failure or was you know, was the agenda what actually played out? You know, again, Afghanistan is a great example.

We went there to presume to deal with, you know, the number one terrorists in the world, including Osama bin Laden. But but that wasn't what we did. I mean, we did end up finding him, but that wasn't what we did while we were there. We did a lot of other things. And so you know, there's there's a lot of underlying questions, why, if the goal is to do that, do we focus in these other areas. Iraq for sure, when you look at some of the large companies and corporations that made billions of dollars there. Again, I could go way off on all of this, But we executed as in Iraq as clean an invasion and you know whatever you wan call that, takeover the country as as we could. I mean, it was, you know, incredible,

But then it devolved into twenty years of necessary infrastructure building, necessary you know, you know, contracting and everything else that went into that. So that's the hard thing, I guess for me, and I think a lot of other people that I talked to that served in Iraq, is was it a mistake, because you know, I guess that happens that's bad. Was it a mistake or was that the plan? And I think that's the hard question to kind of you get your brain around if that makes any sense at all.

No, I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I don't think it was. I really believe at some level there's a lot of general officers and senior leaders in the military that didn't question continuing rotations to the war because they wanted to go. They didn't want to be the only colonel you know, that didn't get didn't get his deployment ribbon or didn't get a combat action ribbon. You know what I'm saying, Like, Yeah, I don't know, over twenty years, there was no I don't think you could have walked up to a E four and below in any branch of the service that was deployed and go, what's your overall mission here, and what's the inset that you're looking for? You know, that was just wasn't that

didn't exist? That's right, Yeah, that's fair, And and you know everything is so mired down in again continuing our operations, but also while we're this far along, we have to stay and we have to figure it out. I think we should still be in Afghanistan. I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that. That's probably a different conversation. I don't think we need to have you know, tens of thousands of folks there. We should have held on to Bogram, But put that all aside. You know, you put yourself in a position as a country where you have to continue and and the price for that is human life. And I think that's what we as Americans failed to fail to get ahold of. Yeah, yeah, I think I agree. I mean I think there should have been a residual

force at a minimum there just kind of oversee things and kind of try to limit the amount of corruption. Again, that was a huge thing in Afghanistan. I mean we literally we would say, you know, it's an Afghan solution to an Afghan problem, right. That was a very common like saying you know, like, hey, that's not how I would have done it, but they're taking care of it, you know, or they got this, and and it was there was you know, when you hear about like ghost rolls, like the roles of soldiers. There's like a list of soldiers that get paid and a lot of them aren't even real They're just going to the commander, you know, or or commanders are being given uniforms for their troops and then you find out they're selling them, you know, when you

find stuff like that, Like I wasn't surprised, like when the whole country went to shit. That was when when they said we're pulling out, and people were like, oh, it's gonna be, it's gonna be within four weeks, eight weeks, the country's gonna fall. I'm like four days, like what are you talking about? Eight weeks? No way? Yeah, And I wasn't as affected by that as some people were because I was in an Afghan advisor and sanging and Sanging had gotten back to had fallen under fell under ice within like two years of us leaving there. You know, we were one of we were the last advisor team in that and saying it.

And when we pulled out, there was a marine infantry battalion there and then I don't think anybody replaced them after that rotation. It was supposed to be just the Afghan National Army and within a year they were. One of the other dudes on my advisor team sent me a YouTube video that was a video of the Bizarre and Sanging where when we went through it was always full, you know, people selling stuff, kids, women, every you know, and then it was just a ghost town, like literal freaking tumbleweeds blown across had been blown out and everything. You know. It's like, yeah, you know, I don't know, Yeah, yeah, I I lost a couple of friends, you know, in these conflicts, none while I was there, None where I was in combat with them and and they were killed

or anything like that. But I imagine if I that was my situation, you know, had I been with like three five and saying it and multiple my friends have been killed and grown up and then the pull out from the war went the way it was, I would probably be more bitter, you know what I'm saying? That makes sense? Yeah, I don't know.

It's Uh, it's a tough thing, man. I think every veteran's got to kind of kind of figure out their thoughts on it. I tell people not to dwell, you know too much, like as long as you did what you were supposed to do and you didn't do anything wrong, man like, yeah, it is what it is. We don't have a say in some of this stuff. Well, and one of the you know, just general pieces of advice I give to people is you do the best that you can with the information that you have, and you can't spend the rest of your life regretting what you did with the best information you had at the moment.

And you know, that's where it gets really dangerous, is well we should have done something different or this or that or whatever. Well, I mean, if you knew that and you still went forward, that's a different thing. But if you you know, you took the information that you were given, he did the very best that you could. You fought as honorably and you know, justly as possible, and you have nothing to regret or to feel bad about it, and I do think that is an important place to settle. Is. Look, we were doing the very best we could with the information that we had, and no one that I know, and I know this happened. I know there's atrocities in every war and all that.

I'm not blind to that, but the Marines that I served with in my time there, you know, we did the best we could to take care of what we need to take care of, to protect innocent life when we could, and and we I think most of us believed we were there because a really bad guy who's going to do harm to Americans around the world if we didn't do something about it, and so we did what we needed to do. Yeah. Yeah, if you can walk away and say hey, I come out on or clean, yeah, you know, then it is one. It is. I don't feel bad about I mean I again, I don't. There's nothing I regret doing. So I sleep peacefully at night. Yeah yeah, right, that's right. I don't have issues.

I'm lucky to not have have the like PTSD issues that some people have. I mean, obviously, you don't go anywhere for seven months and come back to the same person. You're always you're gonna change from those life sure, just kind of life experiences. But you know, I don't know I'm talking. So that's so for people's perspective, don't think I'm like, I don't know. I feel okay with everything and I don't have a lot of issues, so I can speak about it like that and say whatever. You know, I'm not that concerned about it. But if I was severely suffering from PTSD or again seeing my buddies multiple of them get killed right in front of me or something like that, I may have a different perspective on that,

and I completely heart it. You know. Yeah, sure that's fair. What made you decide to get out? You know, the party just started? Yeah, well so I made the decision. So for a marine officer, when you are commissioned, your commission into the reserves. That's just how it's set up. So your commissioned officer into the Marine Corps Reserves. After your initial contract, you go through a process it's called augmentation, and augmentation is the Marine Corps offering you a regular commission. So it's kind of a it's kind of an opportunity for the Marine Corps to go, hey, thanks for coming but we're not going to continue this relationship, right, And so when I came to that point of augmentation, we had already gone through that

you're not going to Afghanistan. We all believe the war was going to be over pretty quick. I had just lived through kind of a you know, like a lot of people had a peacetime Marine Corps or military. It just I wasn't doing and didn't think I would ever do the things I came into the Marine Corps to do, if that makes sense, And so I turned down augmentation. Well that was about a month before we got the order, Hey you're going to Kuwait, and then we went into Iraq. So I had already made the decision to get out. I accepted a job which I could have gotten out of, but I accepted a job with a church that I started working for. It was the church that we've been a part of, and kind of there's a whole story there. But so I had already

taken a job, I'd already put in my paperwork to get out, and then we end up in Iraq. So yeah, that was a crazy time too, because now I'm not only doing the thing that I had always wanted to do right. But I was one of few junior officers. I was, you know, promoted to the captain right as I was getting out, and I was one of a few junior junior officers that had that experience, I mean, one of you in the Marine Corps at the time, and so kind kind of my world opened up, right. It's like, well, what do you want to do? Where do you want to go?

Hey, we can deal with that augmentation thing. We can get you orders. You have this experience now, and that changes a lot. And so I had to kind of work through a process through all of that. But then there was always this thing in the back of my mind like, Okay, my next job when I get home, my next job is going to be a B billet And that's just how it works. So I'm going to go do a B billet Somewhere. It looked like I was going to go to the School of Ventry, which would have been a good B billet, but it would have been a B bill at three years, and then I could rotate back to the fleet and potentially be a company commander. But there's no way this war thing is going to last that long. So I'm going

to do a b billet and still end up in a peacetime Marine Corps. I need to be happy with what I've experienced and happy with what I've been a part of and move on and be better for my family and better for me. And so there were a lot of factors there. Had I known then what we know now, that probably would have changed that. But I thought, hey, man, I got to be here, this is awesome, It's over, and now I can move on. Yeah. Yeah, I mean everybody goes through that right when there, when it comes up to that end of their time, their end of their listmen, or their obligation of service, you start to really think about what's important, you know.

And then then you know, for someone like me that got out before, like I retired and stuff, you know, it was a lot of the little stuff that just started getting annoying, you know, the marinisms of like listening to a certain major yell at you, like just like, dude, come on, man, I've been doing this for this long and I'm just kind of over it. You know. It's like, right, I'm gonna put my hands in my pockets. I know you keep telling me not to, but it's just the way it is That's just how it is. You know. I was just and when all that kind of stuff and you have a family, you know, I started, you know, I looked and I was like, man, my kid's starting to get older and he knows I'm not here anymore. You know, like how much is this gonna fuck

him up for me not being around? And I was just like when they told me I was going to go on another MEW where I knew, yeah, you can get called up, things can happen, and you could be that first you know, America's nine to one one force, but that ninety nine point nine percent of the time that's not the case. And I was new staff, so my big job was answering the phone, you know, staff sergeant. And I was like, I can't tell my kid goodbye again to sit here and sit on a ship. This isn't worth it, you know what I'm saying, Like I could. I felt useful when I was going to Afghanistan, Like when I went as an advisor. I've always said that's my most like cherished deployment. I guess it was like I felt like

I was doing my job. We were out making a difference in that community, you know, like, I don't know all of it. I was just doing it. And to pull back from that and start start transitioning into that peacetime Marine Corps, I was like, this is just gonna get bad, you know, like this feels like it's just not the same. So everybody goes through that though, and everybody has their own reasons to either stay in or get out. And I would tell there's a lot of people that came up to me, a lot of staff started I was a staff startan at a time. A lot of staff startants are like, dude, you're getting out, Like what are you doing? Man, You're like eight more years? You know, it's only retirement. And I always told people,

I'm like, look, man, I know a lot of morons that are surviving out in the real world, you know what I'm saying. So I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot for the stars and do something I really want to try doing. I'm gonna get out and do something cool, and if it doesn't work out, then I'll move back home and get a factory job, you know, like it's whatever. You know. I felt like, I think a lot of people won't look at that. They don't understand how capable they are, and that it's afraid they're afraid to walk away from the service because it's like a really big, you know, safety net. You know, I'm walking away from a retirement, I'm walking away from a guaranteed paycheck for the rest of my life, or you know, to go do what?

And I don't know, man, I felt like it was a good time. And I don't know if if you kind of thought that same thing, like, Okay, I'll make you know, I don't have any any issues. I can make it in the real world kind of deal. Well, And I think I think you have to do, you know, what you think is best for you and your family, you know, the same as you I had. I had two little kids, and I mean I was gone, you know, the majority of the time that we've been married, and and so you have to say, yeah, yeah, you have to look at all those things and say what's what's best for me, what's best for my Family's best for this situation. And again, you make the best decision you can with the information that you have. And and you know,

for me, at the time, the information I had was you know, the President just said mission accomplished, like we're done. With this thing, I'm going to go into a peacetime Marine Corps. That was hard for me to deal with the first time. It's going to be, you know, harder for me to deal with now on the other side of of this, And you know, you start to do all of that and think, okay, it's again. I'm very thankful for what I was able to do, but it's time for me to move on. And you know, hindsight, right, if I had known seven months later one five was going to be in the first battle of Fallujah, and you know, if I had known all those things, it it probably would have changed some of the decisions that

I made. But I didn't. And you know, honestly, it's probably a good thing that I didn't. Right, You make the decision you can with that information and try to do it's best for you and your family. And well, just like other people's I hear people all the time say they wish they would have gotten too deployed. They wish they would have gotten to do this while they were in They missed deployments and stuff, And I'm like, man, how many dudes were killed on that deployment. Yeah, you could have been one of those people. Like, be happy that it is what it is. This is the I don't know, I get it if people haven't deployed and they miss out on that and they were like, man, I didn't you know. But at the same time, there's a lot

of dudes that deployed and lost buddies and stuff like that, and you know, you don't want that kind of that kind of fucking heaviness to carry out. And shit, yeah, I was saying back, Yeah, we look back with kind of rose colored glasses. Right, everything would have been fine. I would have had everything would have been amazing. Well maybe not right.

Maybe you have no idea, but you didn't and this is where you are, so you really need to take advantage of that. And and I mean, I don't know a better way to live. I think you have to stop regretting what you did or didn't do in the past and you know, move forward with purpose and intentionality and and make the best of where you are. Yeah. Purpose is you know, purpose is like the big thing for a lot of people. I think they get out and that's what they miss from the Marine Corps because you know, every day, here's the job I gotta do, and it's up to me to come in and you're being held accountable, you know, I say, I say, I got out because I was tired of the bullshit. And that's like the little stuff that

it makes you good, a haircut every week, make sure you're you know, but I didn't. I didn't mind being held accountable for being good at my job or holding other people accountable because it was serious. You know, when you're in these combat arms jobs, you're in a you're and you've deployed to combat, you understand stand the seriousness of this guy not understanding his role or you know. And the problem when you get out and you leave a job like that is you're not gonna find a job that has that kind of seriousness behind it, unless you're like a police officer maybe, or there's few jobs obviously, but for the most part, if you just get out and go get a regular job, you know, if you if you fuck up

a number on the spreadsheet, seven people aren't gonna possibly die. You know what I'm saying. Okay, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. The having having purpose is huge. So I think I really you know, encourage people to find something that they're interested in and invest in it and like just like let it, you know, be part of your purpose.

So what do you do now you're part of the Mighty Oaks found or the CEO of Mighty Oaks found out? How do you find purpose now that you're out? Uh? And Mighty helps yourself a lot with that. I you know, I think identity and purpose again. You know, I'm a Christian, So for me, it's it's understanding God created me with you know, purpose, and so I need to pursue that, right, I need to find that instead of just kind of wallowing or feeling bad about where I am or what I've done or whatever the things we just talked about. So it's identifying that there is a purpose and then seeking that out. And my Yokes for me has been huge in that regard because we work with veterans, active duty service members, and first responders. We deal with trauma, post

traumatic stress, you know, all of those related issues, and we've been able to help thousands of men and women over the years, and so it really is an opportunity to take you know, kind of my own life experience, the things I've been through and we have a huge team, but and to help other men and women who are going through you know similar struggles and have come through or come out of similar backgrounds and so it's funny, but finding purpose by helping other people find their purpose, right, it's you know, you're right. If you have a job where you put the wrong digit on a spreadsheet, people probably aren't going to die. I think, you know, in a lot of places that's true. But when you're helping people

find their purpose, particularly the veteran community, that really can be the difference between life and death, certainly between a fulfilling life and you know and and not. So Yeah, it's it's been. It's been a real privilege to be a part of and to be able to help folks. Yeah, that's awesome, man, And you know the way you put it, Like, I know a guy who just committed suicide. I think last week, Major Zeppinger was his name. He was a new assistant opso when I worked with him, super awesome guy. You know, he just had a rough go at it, I think after towards the end of his career and stuff.

And it's like when you hear that, you're like, fuck man. Like another dude and I was talking to a dude and I another guy was like, Hey, did you know him, did you hear about this? And uh, He's like, man, that's like ten dudes, I know that's killed themselves now, and it's it becomes it becomes like part of it of like being a veteran, I guess, like you know, dudes. And I don't know why it's so prevalent in the military. I don't get it.

I don't understand why veterans. I get it if you're like ninety years old and you're on the edge of death and you're just tired of the pain and shit like that. But when you're like in your thirties or forties and and you got a whole life to live, really, I mean, that's half a life to live left. I don't I don't get the permanent solution to a temporary problem, you know what I'm saying. And it's well, and it's a major I mean it's a major problem, you know. Just to put in perspective, just over seven thousand men and women were killed serving in Iraq Afghanistan. Just over seven thousand, over thirty thousand who have served in Iraq Afghanistan have committed suicide. So yeah, it's a it's it's a

major, major problem. And you know, thankfully we have the opportunity to engage with that. A lot of other good organizations are as well, but it really is incumbent upon us to some degree as veterans and those to serve, to help others who have served figure it out. Yeah for sure. Yeah. No. My biggest thing, and I say this a lot on the podcast, is reach out to somebody. Not if you're suicidal. Well yeah you should if you're suicidal, but reach out to your homies. Like when's the last time you talked to someone from your unit? Just shoot a text and be like, what's up, man, I hope you've been great.

You may not get anything back. You may call and not get it, you know, get a voicemail and just leave a voicemail, but even reaching out and giving that attempt is huge, you know, And a lot of times, like I randomly one of my old radio operators called me a few weeks ago. We talked for like an hour and a half. I haven't seen this guy in like ten years, you know, and I'm like, oh, what's up. And it was right back into it, like passing with each other, you know, harass at each other a bit, and that's that's what can really help people out. Because I had a different situation. I got out of the Marine Corps. I stayed in San Diego and I started a military podcast, so well, I'm interacting with military people

pretty regularly. A lot of guys get out. One day they're a corporal and an infantry battalion, and then the next day they're Joe Schmoe back at the town on their mom and dad's couch, and they're like, what the hell just happened, you know, And it's like it's such a transition that for those that haven't gotten out, you don't understand it. But when you're cut off, when you're no longer there, it's weird because you know, the guys are doing stuff, there's a field up coming up, there's a dude's got duty on the holiday, you know, and like you start to I don't know, it's just so weird, But down to it is reach out to somebody, say what's up. You know. You never know how even just a text message or a phone call could really change somebody's day and

kind of kind of what's going on. So I think that's great. Man. I love it when veteran veterans are working with, you know, running veteran organizations and and trying to do positive There's a lot of shitty ones out there where guys are just trying to get money in a nonprofit form. That is a reality, but there's a lot that aren't. There's a lot of good organizations doing stuff, and you know, I always tell people to to try to get involved. Pidiabat is another one I've talked about on here before.

Those guys have a pretty good social media presence and a thing going, you know. I think for our generation of veterans, these smaller organizations that are kind of kind of run or marketed on social media are way more impactful or useful for us than like the American Legion or the thefw WE just I go to the American Legion here and I just can't relate with these guys.

And it's nothing against them, they're just I'm like the youngest dude by twenty years yeah, right right, you know, and it's like it's a great organization and they do a lot of great things. But I think if you're like me and you don't necessarily fe at place or at home in one of those organizations, seek out some of these other ones like what you're running here and you know, like I said, pibabata and stuff like that, and see how you can get involved or how they can help you out, because I think it's it's great, it's good. Where can people find you on social media? Man? And the easiest place to find me or to find out about Mighty Oaks or connect to social media is just use my name Jeremy Stallnacher dot com. I have a website setup and some other podcasts I'm involved

with all my socials. I have a blog there links out to everything I do is right there, so a pretty straightforward. We'll throw your website link in the in the show description for people to check that out. As always. My Instagram is Former Action Guys, Former Action News. Those are my two my websites. Jakramergraphics dot com. Hit me up if you're looking for Unit T shirts, graphic design and all that and that's it. Man, I really appreciate the convo. Awesome, Thank you man, it was great

Ep. 208 | Jeremy Stalnecker | 1st Battalion 5th Marine CAAT Platoon Commander | Iraq Invasion

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