Ep. 245 | Matt Cavanaugh | Invasion of Iraq, Artillery Officer, Author

All right, Matt kevinall, welcome to the show. I appreciate you coming on today. Man, I'm so excited to be here.

I've listened to a bunch of the Lesson or you know, the episodes, and I'm proud to be counted among those few.

Oh yeah, I really appreciate that. I'm excited your You know, I got your books Who Wins Wars and Bestcar Bestcar Wins.

Yeah.

If I started reading Who Wins Wars, and I've liked it so far. It's been pretty good, and I'm interested in digging into Bestcar Wins as well. But before we talk about the books and stuff, let's get into your career and kind of I guess how you got to that point of deciding to write something so army veteran Army officer, what made you decide to join the army?

Oh my gosh, I played hockey?

Oh really?

Yeah? So I'm from Saint Paul, Minnesota, which which makes me kind of a walking stereotype. I'm a short guy, and I grew up idolizing the nineteen eighty US Olympic hockey team. I mean if yeah, like twelve of the twenty guys on that team, were from Minnesota, and Herb Brooks, the head coach, was from just a few miles away from where I'm from in Saint Paul. And it's not hard to just grow up wanting to be like them, you know, And in a weird way, I have a connection to them. So my birthday, the day that I was born, is the very same day that that team first assembled came together here where I live in Colorado Springs, in the summer of nineteen seventy nine. So yeah, And it's even weirder in the sense that the US Olympic

Museum is here in Colorado Springs and they actually have the scoreboard from Lake Placid from that game here in town. And it's almost as if my life comes full circle surrounding that team. But I didn't make it as a hockey player. You obviously haven't seen my name in lights in an NHL rink, but I did get to wear a flag for my life for my career. While I was in college, hockey fell away because I kind of broke everything from the waist down. And when I graduated from West Point, of course in two thousand and two, I graduated as a second lieutenant and I stayed in the Army for a full career, so I'm very proud of that. I wish the hockey had worked out, but I'm glad that the career did.

What do you mean you broke everything from the waist down, yeh man.

So it's mandatory to take a combatives class there early on, and I broke my leg. In that combatives class, you're supposed to pick a partner when you're grappling who's roughly the same size and weight, and I took on a guy that was a good fifty pounds bigger than me, and it showed because my leg went snap. And then later on while I was there, I crumbled in a squat rack while I was off season training for hockey, and my left knees patel attendant about a of it was quite frayed and tore up. It's like a rubber band.

If you stretch it, you might see that little edges have developed. And they actually removed a third of my ptel attendant in my left knee, and it was kind of awful, and in the sense that I had one of those, it wasn't completely permanent, but a very long term profile from exercise in the Army and while I was actually in officer based of course at Fortsville and Oklahoma.

I have this really strong memory of being forced to do the walking PT test. So instead of running two miles, they made me walk fast on a track for I think a mile and a half. And yeah, I don't remember the specifics, but it was basically speed walking because that's all that I was sort of permitted by the army to do. And I did one of my laps and it's in the dark in the morning, and I get past the greater you know, the you know who's who's standing in place keeping an eye on us, and as I get past him, I heard him yell at me keep it up speedy, and honestly, like it was one of the lowest moments of my life. Like I I genuinely felt smaller than an ant. So, you know, very fortunately, my my knee has improved and over time

I've been able to develop the ability to run back and and obviously that's where that book Best Scar Winds comes in. I did four ultra marathons in some of the world's sarshist deserts, so obviously the knees.

Okay, now that's crazy, I'm you know, that's one of those. I'm surprised that they. I mean, was there a talk about releasing you from the army, Like, dude, this guy broke his leg. He's got this issue now, Like.

Well, it's funny you say that. So so I'm a two thousand and two graduate from what point nine to eleven was a few weeks after we got our class rings, which is still on my hand. We graduated on June first, two thousand and two. President George W. Bush gave our graduation commencement address. It was his Doctrine of Preemption speech, which is basically like, hey guys, you're going to war.

And I went to a Field Artillery Officer basic course where I had my keep it up speedy moment. And then a couple months later I arrived at Fort Carson and third Armored Cavalry Regiment and we were deployed within a few weeks, within a month or so. And I remember in the pre deployment when I went to go see the physician's assistant, he looked at my chart and he saw like this like obvious, like lower body profile where you know you're not supposed to do, you're not supposed to run, and he looked at he looked at the sheet, he looked at me, and he said, just don't run from the enemy. You'll be fine. And I was like all right. I was like great, all right, here we go. You know, I did feel very much that spending as much time as I did in a

rock in the heat with all that vest weight on was probably detrimental to my health in the long run, in the sense that like, I'm a quarter of an inch shorter than I was when I entered the army. Like, I know that for a fact. I know that happens over time in your life. But it happened for me, for sure, and it happened then. But it also meant that I was away from like a normal unit PT cycle where I basically did whatever you could do at the time with the you know what you know, depending on what your unit was up to in the moment.

And my knee improved move while I was there to the point where by the time we finished OIF three, I was able to run again. And it became a part of my life, you know, A very important part of my.

Life was your deployment to Iraq was o I F three.

I was in OIF one and then all.

Okay three, yeah, okay.

I was like wait, yeah, yeah, right, no, yeah, we did oif one we came home, uh and then and then just kept getting better and then yeah, well yeah.

I mean what was that like, you know, graduating from West Point or you know nine to eleven happening, and then you graduate knowing like you're going into the unknown. It's not like STRATG you know, before that, it's probably like what's a cool assignment? What's this? What's that? And I'm sure the the conversations changed a lot amongst like the cadets. Yeah, and you know what was that like?

So graduating there and then going to Fort Zille and then rolling right into an appointment. I mean it was just like bam, you know, one thing after another.

So when nine to eleven happened, I mean most listeners would know this, but West Point is in New York State, about an hour north of New York City, and on nine to eleven we could see the smoke from the impacts from Ground zero. College students are crazy in the sense that immediately there were these rumors flying around that they might need us in combat, that we might go to war and graduate early, that we might even be asked to be part of the cleanup and relief effort down in New York City, as if they needed four thousand cadets running around making their jobs that much more difficult.

I say that because I'm forty six years old now, right. I know that sounds crazy, but when you're a twenty three year old kid or a twenty two year old kid, that's how your mind works, and it's different as you age in the course of your life. And I remember feeling like a small part of something much bigger and wanting to matter, in to be the drop in the bucket that matters, and I felt fairly insignificant for some period of time. And then when we were actually deployed to Iraq and I was part of that unit in Iraq, I had moments where I felt like I mattered more than I ever had or ever might over the course of the rest of my life, where I was responsible for other human beings lives, and my performance mattered to

the survival and to our ability to do the mission that we were sent there to do. And I think it's really shaped everything, you know, truly, everything in what's followed in my life. Frankly, the books that we're here to talk about today. So the reason, on some level, I know this for a fact, that I wrote Who Wins Wars is because I wanted to understand how you do this and how it's done successfully. You know, as big and as awful as wars are, they come along once in a while and there are individuals that perform amazingly, you know, at the highest level, and I wanted to understand how that happens because I know, damn sure there's going to be another twenty three year old, scared kid like I was, and I want to put the best

strategic leaders we can possibly put in place in charge of that twenty three year old kid, because they deserve it. So, I there's a lot to say about it. I mean, it's a big experience. It's the biggest experience that I've probably had in my life. But I do think that's the big takeaway from it.

Yeah, you know, so I like what you said. You know you said that. Oh no, no, I'm blanking out now.

There's just so much good stuff to pick from, my man, just so much good stuff to pick from.

Oh you said that. Uh, oh, it might be the best thing I've ever done or ever will do. And I think that's something people struggle with after they get out of the military. Yeah, you know what I'm saying, a lot of people are like, that's the best thing I've all. You know, I've that's the coolest I've ever been.

You know, I'll never get it, you know, that was the greatest it was. And I think that's a tough that that's a real reality for a lot of people, or not reality, but like almost a mindset, right, yeah, And it's it's kind of it's a negative mindset. It's not very good because then you're setting a bar for yourself, like, well, I'll never be that cool again.

For sure. And I think that in my life that's followed my time in the desert and followed my military career, it's I feel as though I experienced post traumatic growth. And I know that a lot of people go the other way, you know, they have episodes of depression and mental health issues. And I'll say I have had moments of deep sadness and disappointment and I wish, you know, I had a moment where I realized in my early thirties that my all of my twenties were horrible in the sense that like I went to school at West Point, which when when I was a senior, uh, we were we finished. I think we won Playboy Magazine's uh most boring or worst place to go to college? We beat BYU and and then and then after that sort of

lockdown experience, then I went on a cycle of deployments. Like my twenties weren't great. They weren't good. But but here's where I what I always come back to. They were meaningful. Like I feel as though I did something that I'm proud of. I feel as though I was the bigger I was. I was a part of a bigger team. And and I I I feel good about that.

And and I everything that I've done since then has been a different way of recapturing that same feeling, that same spirit. And I know eventually we're going to get to it. But in that book Bescar Wins, I talk about after, you know, at the end of my military career, donating my left kidney to a stranger, and it kicked off a chain of donations that helped another seven folks get transplanted, and the last kidney came back to a service person at Walter Read. I will tell you justin that is that is Matt Cavanaugh trying to recreate the feelings that I had, the pride that I got from from being on the battlefield. Like it's you know, you can't ever do it again, and I wouldn't want to, but but this is my attempt to sort of try

to do something on that level.

Yeah, you know, it's being part of something bigger than yourself, right, something that's a selfless, selfless act. And donating a kidney is a big deal. I mean that's not a that's a real surgery. Yeah, I.

It was. I will also say that I've had a bunch of surgeries in my life. Like I mentioned the knee where they took out a third of my pateel attendant. I've had U p R K I surgery. I've had a variety of different, you know, unpleasant, uh, medical procedures in my life. Living kidney donation, UH is one night in the hospital. That's it, and then you you walk out of the hospital on your own two legs and you kick on with life. Obviously, it's it's an abdominal surgery, so they make an incision about a pointer finger length in your abdomen. But other than that. I mean, it's my life has been no less. In fact, it's been more since I donated.

There's a local guy here who runs a news podcast, Brian Kember World News with BK. He is a big advocate for it. He's a PJ that had to get medical they retired from the Air Force because of his he had some kind of kidney issue, ended up having to go on dialysis over time and stuff like that, and was waiting on a donor and then a random PJ that he had never met offered to donate his kidney to him. Yeah, and I was like, that's crazy, you know. And he talks about it on his podcast and stuff, and you know, try to get the word out to let people know, like, you know, it's an option if you're out there and you you know, not really using that other kidney.

Well, so I'll just say I'm obviously not out here to solicit people, but I'll say this, donating a kidney is a lot like joining the military. It's not for everybody, but for those people who it's for, it's life changing. And I don't just mean in the sense that you're saving another person's life. I genuinely think about my recipient as a person who gave me the greatest gift that I've ever gotten in my life. I had a meaningful opportunity to make a big difference in someone else's life.

And you don't get those every day.

Nah.

You know, one in about three thousand people walking around on planet Earth only has one kidney. Anyways, it's a fluke that we have too. People live full lives with just one kidney.

Man.

Yeah, I mean, I'm I've done everything you possibly can to beat up my remaining kidney, I assure you.

Yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah, it's that's crazy, and you know it's Uh, the medical stuff is moving forward. I know they've tested like pig kidneys and stuff like that.

Ye yeah, you know transplantation.

Yep, we'll see how that goes. But let's talk about I do want to talk about the invasion. So you're there within you know, months of MOS school. You're in the desert, prepping across a line of departure and head into it. You know what was kind of was it surreal? Were you sitting there like personally, I'm here right.

Now because I I'm obviously someone who cares about history and I know about American combat and to be a part of that, to be, you know, having read about so many past wars, to be a part of one was surreal. I'll tell you, you feel so unprepared. I mean, as great a job as West Point and Fort Sill do to prepare you, you know, nothing can really get you there, right. So I'll give you an example. At West Point in the summertime, we do military training and we do land navigation, you know e old land navigation with a compass. And you're out there and you're looking at a map and your terrain associating. And the very first mission that they give me crossing the Berm from Kuwait into Iraq proper. The ground war is continuing and

we're just behind the front edge of third Infantry Division. The first mission I get is to take a convoy of vehicles across the Berm. There's no way to there's no terrain to associate off of in the desert. It's it's like a terrain associating on a blank sheet of paper. I mean, I and and it was. It was the moment where right before I deployed, I had purchased one of those Garmin yellow e treks, you know, civilian pluggers, And I was very thankful that we didn't knock down the GPS because Lieutenant Kavanaugh navigating across that, you know that that completely empty terrain absolutely needed it. And you know, I I found that that feeling over and over again.

But replace the technology with people, you know. I served with senior non commissioned officers that had done rotations in the bulk. Some of them had fought in the Gulf War, and they were older and they were more experienced, and I, although we butted heads amazingly from time to time, I would count them among the finest human beings on planet Earth.

Well, I mean that's what you want to be around when you're in that kind of situation, right, one hundred percent.

I mean I like I didn't really you know, my grandparents served in the Second World War, but we didn't have like a deep military background in the family. Like I said, I was initially drawn to go to a school like West Point because I wanted to be a Division one college hockey player. But I do feel like it was it was where I should should have been, Like it's a it was something that I was as good as I could be at it, and I made a difference in my uniit it and I'm in the long run, I'm grateful that I did it.

What what was your role exactly during the invasion, within the within the battery.

So when I first arrived, like a lot of new lieutenants, I actually didn't have a position, And because because I got there so soon before we deployed that there wasn't a platoon available to me. I was actually like, my my get in the war moment, frankly, was that the squadron commander I was in third Armored Cavalry Regiment. The squadron commander that I was a part of, the squadron that I was a part of, UH had a personal security detachment and it was comprised of two or three vehicles with eight soldiers, and there was it was in Fallujah, just after the ground war, and a grenade attack came over the wall over night one night, very early on, and several of the members of the personal security detachment

actually received shrapnel wounds from that grenade attack. And so I volunteered. I said, this is you know, I'm here, I might as well fucking be a part of this, right, So I jumped in as the lead of the personal security detachment for about a month, I want to say, and then we reorganized essentially a platoon out of fire support fire supporters, out of fire support teams, because by then it was evident that we weren't going to be firing a lot of artillery, that we were instead going to be operating as calve you know, calves scouts and dismounts and dismounted elements, and so we sort of created a new organization and I was the platoon leader for that organization. That was most of what I did for Oif.

One, why weren't you guys shooting very much artillery?

Uh? The environment that we were in. We were in Fallujah Aramadi, like basically west of the Baghdad International Airport out to Ramadi, and we were there for the first six months just after the ground war. And I mean, if if you can recall, I mean, Iraq was a society with no that had that's you know, we had kicked out all the organizing constructs, right, and so a lot of what we were doing was creating some semblance of order, and firing artillery in those urban environments was not a part of that order, to say the least. Now, I will also say that during OIF three, I was part of the third Armored Cavalry Regiment when then Colonel H. R.

McMaster commanded the regiment, and we were part of the model that became known as clear, hold and build, And in that deployment we actually did fire something like fifteen hundred rounds in an urban environment for very specific reasons, in order to gain some control over that large city in the northwest of Iraq.

What was it like to be in like Ramadi and Fallujah that early on, you know, before because those were obviously huge hotbeds later on, Yeah.

So you were just seeing the first signs of what was coming. So, you know, we arrived in country in April. In May, we start to sort of settle on because I mean, one thing that people forget is that we were trying to put force on space. So we were trying to put the right size unit on top of the right size population in order to help with the transition into a new government. By June, you could see that things were not going well and we we start to see our first IEDs. So the commander of my organization, my troop that I was attached to, Fox Troop second Squadron, third Armored Cavary Regiment was commanded by a tall South Carolinian, a guy named Captain Josh Buyers. He was a West Point graduate like myself, and he was like you know

band of brothers, Lieutenant Dick Winners, you know the the and you know he has said he he promotes over the course of the series and and he's like the the officer that everyone wants to be.

Like.

Captain Byers was like that for me. And he was killed in an ID and it was while we were still he was still driving a soft skinned Humvy and I remember when he was killed, it was like it was like they killed Superman. I mean like it was if they could make Superman bleed. And and I I mean I remember hearing the news not wanting anyone to see me because I was a lieutenant, right, and when you're a lieutenant, you're trying to earn credibility with the soldiers that you're with. So I went into the the uh you know, uh port of you know, the plywood port to John's that we had built, which smelled horribly because it was in the Iraq summer. And I I cried in that bathroom because I was just like, I can't believe, you know, I just it was too much.

It was just it was really too much. You know, my eyes were dry when I walked out. But I mean that one really I felt that, I really did. And I mean it continued all the way through. Like in November, we put a group of guys from the platoon on Shinnack helicopters to go on R and R Like there was a I can't remember where we were sending guys then. It wasn't Germany, but it was somewhere, and the helicopter was shot down. And you know those guys, you know, they were there one minute, they were gone the next. I saw a classmate of mine from West Point, a guy that I was in the same academic major with, Like I went to dances with this guy, and I saw him literally the day before. I later learned that he was killed. So I you know, you're not equipped

to deal with that sort of thing when you're twenty three years old. They you know, they tell you things about your prefrontal cortex not being fully developed yet. They you know, the Army does its best, they really do, because it's this tragic reality that we have to send the youngest people to do things that they're not mature enough yet to handle. But I do think that over time, I you know, I understand what happened, even if I'm not happy with what it is. But at the gut core of the military profession, we trade people's lives for some military mission or objective, and we should never shy away from it, even if we never really fully accept it as human beings.

Yeah, I mean it's difficult, right, and I think a lot of people, even when you're in on a deployment, sometimes it feels like it's not real or dangerous until something like that happens. Yeah, you know, the first injury, the first casualty happens, and then it's like, Okay, this is real, and it's like and if it's someone you know, it's like, damn, this isn't that random, Like I knew that guy, you know.

I have memories of being so cavalier and stupid, like exposing myself to to enemy fire, like without you at the beginning. I've heard this said before, like at the beginning of a war, you you think this, it can't be me, and then there's a at some point you realize it can be you. And if you go too far, if you're there too long, you believe with certainty you're already dead. And I think there's a like there's a right place to stand on the on the teeter totter to make sure you don't go too far in either direction.

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's that's war. You know. People don't need to hear it sometimes, but that's part of it, you know, the enemy has to say. And I can't imagine. I just saw another like stream today it was showing these different UAV shots in Ukraine and I'm like, man, that's horrible, Like I don't even want to see that.

You know, It's like I can't imagine what those guys are going through. You know, you're just walking around, Yeah, fucking drone comes down and smacks you, you know. Yeah, the IEDs, you know, when you guys first encountered them, I from what I understand, they were pretty small, right, because they didn't really have to They weren't blowing up armored vehicles, so they could just be like a one one eighty milimeter mortar or eighty one milimeter.

They were very small at first. They didn't need much explosive, they didn't need much explosive power, or they didn't need to form the penetrator either. But you know, just like always happens in every war, it's a game of rock paper scissors, where you adapt and then the adversary adapts. You adapt and the adversary adapts. I mean, the question really isn't whether you get it right the first time.

It's whether you continually outperform the adversary, whether you create a cycle that over time gives you a durable advantage. And you know, at that moment, we didn't have anything for that, right like, I mean, we just we didn't, you know. I know a lot of people were very angry with the Secretary of Defense at the time when he said that you go to army, you go to war with the army that you have. But it's the truth.

I mean, it just is. And that doesn't mean that again that I'm happy about it, but it's it's fact, it's real.

I mean, it also wasn't a threat when the war first kicked off. That wasn't something that we had envisioned. I mean, I'm sure somebody was like, hey, this could be a threat at some point, but to the level that it became, you know, and then I think, you know, with what the military had, I think they did a pretty good job of pushing out as much stuff as they could when they got it, and we saw levels, you know, there was different levels of armor, different First it was like bolt on kits on a hum v's and stuff, and then eventually straight out of the factory came with these brand new kits and then yeah, you get the larger vehicles and all that, you know, just kind of progressed as the industrial machine kicked in. And

there was tons of variants too, you know, because they were trying to get it out so fast. The army had all their different kinds of vehicles, the Marine Corps had different vehicles. You know. It is, like you said, it's unfortunate, but I think they I don't think. I'm sure there was somebody, but I think the overwhelming majority of people weren't thinking anything malicious. You know, they were really literally doing the best with what they had. Here's what we have, here's the objective, and here's what we got to do. Sure, my biggest gripe I think with the invasion and afterwards is the civilian leadership and how they kind of handled it, how they weren't really ready for you know, everything that took place, saying no bathist

can be part of the you know, rebuild and stuff when those are the people that are literally all the experts and everything. Yeah, so I.

Will And I mentioned this before you know this, this book you know, who Wins Wars on some level is a natural response to a twenty three year old kid trying to understand his place in a war. And then beyond that, how might this have gone differently? You know, how how have American military leaders dealt with these these big eruptions of violence, these big wars in the past, and how did they do it successfully? And I you know, I focused on the military because I think that we let me let me just start by saying that that general officers are sacrosanct in the within the chain of command.

We you know, we we are we are we are taught from the very beginning to be extremely deferential to military leadership. And there's a good reason for that, because if if, if you, if you have a military unit that's following the chain of command, it's like five fingers that can come together to form a fist. Right, everybody is functioning together. But I do think that we we are able to stand back and say some you know, not all generals are created alike for sure, and what is it about the ones that succeed that really makes the difference? So like for me everything, you know, honestly, I think so much. You know, there's an ancient Greek saying that that war is the father of all things.

You know that that war gives us national borders. It it decides what country wins and what country loses, that sort of thing. War has had a huge impact, the Iraq War in particular, on who's sitting in front of you right now and why I think the way I think and why I do what I do.

Do you think I mean? War? The technology from war right just kind of keeps everything moving forward. I think That's what to me, that's what sets us up, sets us apart from a lot of countries, is that when we get put into it, we will. We're okay with spending a ton of money on trying new things, even if they don't work. You know, that's part of why the military budget is inflated, and there is definitely some waste, but some ways has to be kind of expected because you are kind of doing R and d you know, as you're you know, even even non special operations units.

I was with Anglico and I remember getting I don't know, that's never happened before. Oh well, but yeah, So what I was saying was that, you know, you got to spend some money to figure out what works and what doesn't. You know. An example is I was at Anglico. Our command had some money, and we need a new headset.

So they bought new headsets for the radios. The problem was they didn't buy one or two and let us test them. They just went ahead and bought enough for everybody. We got them, we didn't like them, and we ended up sending them back and then getting a whole different, you know set. So we spent a lot of money.

We didn't need to on something, but we figured out what worked. Some guys like the ones that we got, but they were like the bone mics and stuff. You know. I never really liked those.

Yeah. I like, war is inherently wasteful because the only thing that matters is effective and it's not efficiency, you know, And we're seeing that right now with the amount of money that, for example, we're spending to fight Iran. I mean, like on some level, you just have to fight and you have to use that, you have to use what you have, and it's it's wasteful. It just is. And you know that's what war is on some level, is trying to waste a little less than the other.

Guy on all levels, how last the other guy on you know, Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's it's definitely interesting, you know, And a lot of people have a lot of different mixed feelings about their involvement in Iraq and stuff like that. I personally have never felt bad about deploying or doing, you know, anything like that. You know, some guys feel like they shouldn't have been there, it was a waste and stuff, and I obviously to get there, you know those kind of sentiments as well. What you know, you deployed multiple times and and you taught, you know, students that were gonna go off and deploy themselves. What was your kind of feelings about it? Did you did you feel bad at all? Did you feel positive about it?

I mean, is there any kind of regret? Would you do it all again? And then what would you advise to students that are in like right now and possibly heading if Iron gets crazier you never know what the next step is, you know.

Yeah, there's a lot there that I'll unpack. I'll start by saying, I taught literally taught a military strategy class at West Point. Yeah, and to me, the thing that I was looking to impart on cadets and I had juniors and seniors so soon to be lieutenants. And the thing that some people miss about the value and importance of teaching military strategy to soon to be lieutenants is not that you're trying to build them into military strategists.

It's that you're trying to help them understand their place in the bigger picture, because that's what gives them a sense of why, it gives them a sense of purpose. And if you don't have that overseas when you're fighting, you're not going to be very good. And arguably you're going to be a detriment to your organization because you won't be able to take initiative. You won't be able to feel a sense of initiative, like why is it that the American people are sending me here to do something? Why?

And like the ability to explain that to your soldiers is a huge It makes a big difference. I think that, like, that's what I was seeking to teach these kids. I will also say that years later, at the end of my career, I met and got to know while we were camping as a family, I met and got to know some Iraqi refugees and listening to their stories about the hell that was that country in the early two thousands, and then they're you know, eventually they emigrated to the United States. How difficult it was for them, what it looked, what the what the world looked like through their eyes.

I mean, it just it breaks your heart. And I the worst experiences that they had were the result of of of human beings making making bad decisions, bad you know, doing bad things right, And I know in my heart that I wouldn't be I wouldn't do those things. So I can at least look at myself in the mirror and know that that wasn't me. But I also know that that's what war is, and it should be the goal of anyone who has to be a part of that to minimize the suffering that necessarily comes with it. Yeah, you know, and I'm so I do. I like, I understand why people who were a part of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistans say to themselves, we should never ever ever do that. I can understand their point of view because I have moments where I feel that. But

I also have moments where I remember that there's a lot of young girls in Afghanistan that got a chance at life because the American military was there. There's a lot of people in Iraq that did have the have opportunities that never would have come to them if the Hussein regime was still a part of that country. Even if we made many, many, many mistakes, I think that there was some good that did come from it. And that's the thing about war is it's not black or white.

It's an ever present gray. It's living in shades of gray. And anyone who tells you it is black or white is crazy or stupid.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear now. I mean, Iraq is a much better place than it was during the Hussein regime. Obviously that during the war. I mean there's still issues, and there's still some issues, but from all accounts everything I've seen, you know, overall, like life, there is not that bad in a lot of places, you know, especially, it's not as bad as it was or could be yeah, the war man, I don't know, it's thinking about it, thinking back, and I think it's not good to live with regret, and especially if you know, you know, I've mentioned this on the show multiple times as well, but in the Marine Corps they would tell you, you know, before you deploy, it's like keep your honor clean, and that's

one of those things. It's like, you want to be able to walk away from this and go, you know, I did everything the best I could, you know, and even in easy situations or in bad situations, you know, I did everything the best I could, and I have no reason to like feel bad about what I did, you know, my part in a war. And I think for the almost almost everyone that deployed, that's the case.

There's obviously the handful of psychos that go off and do crazy stuff while they're deployed, or you know, something in the heat of the moment happens and you know, one of the guys gets killed and now these guys react in a way they probably shouldn't have, or something like that. But for the overwhelming majority of people, I think they should be able to come back and feel like, you know, I just did my part, and I did what was asked of me. And you also have to understand that you don't really have a lot of control, you know. I think people forget about that about themselves.

It's like, you know, even though you join the army or whatever, join the Marines, join the Navy, you give up so much control. You know, you're placed in a unit, you're placed in a job, you're placed in these different places. So you're just kind of doing the best you can in these environments that are almost entirely new in almost every situation. You know, it's like you're just getting used to a new environment all the time.

Yeah, I mean, you throw those two things together, Like, the United States Department of Defense is the largest organization on planet Earth. If you add all the active duty, Guard, reserve, civilians, everybody altogether, it's bigger than Walmart, bigger than the People's Liberation Army, It's bigger than any other organization on planet Earth.

And then you take that organization and you put it into the most disorienting human experience that there is, and then into the middle of that storm you stick a twenty two year old with a rifle. I mean, it's not hard to see why. It's as difficult as it is, and I know I am full of regrets for certain parts and moments of my life where I failed to live up to what I wanted to be. But I also know that that's where I get my motivation to be the best I can be now, Like you know, like, so I can live with those two things. Like I said, we live in the gray, you know, it's we're in the middle there somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah, I think everybody has some regrets. I don't think it's easy to be like.

Live life without regrets, man.

But you know, in the back of your head, there's always those little things where're like I could have done that a little better, or I could have done that a little differently. And it's minor things too. You know, it doesn't have to be like the biggest regrets ever, it's it's kind of everything. So after so you get back from this first deployment, the wars on you guys have learned a lot, the war kind of shifted during that time, IEDs are introduced and stuff like that. When you get back and how long before you find out you're going on another deployment and how did your I mean, honestly, you didn't really have any really too much training before your first deployment, So I don't know how much how

different the training for the second deployment would have been, probably completely different, right, Yeah, So.

We get back in April of twenty twenty or pardon me, twenty twenty. That's I'm an old man. Now. We get back in April of two thousand and four, and it's not long thereafter. It's a few months thereafter that we know that we're going to get rotated back in just under a year. So we you know, we we refit.

You know, we we trained, We did go to the field for a couple of months of that period of time afterwards, and we did, you know, recognizing that we didn't fire a single artillery round during OIF one, we trained on the guns for OIF three and it did come in handy, like I mentioned, because in OIF three, we were eventually rotated to Tallaffer, which is in the northwest of Iraq. It's west of Mosil. It's a city of about two hundred and fifty thousand people, and we were sent there to root out an insurgency in the city.

And then Colonel hr McMaster, who later became Lieutenant General hr McMaster and was the National Security Advisor during the first Trump administration. I mean, he had a very simple but brilliant insight, which is that we literally created a wall around the city of Tallaffer. He built an earthen berm with every engineering asset you can imagine around the city to control access and entry and exit to the city.

And what that did was give us the ability to control the city internal to external. But also, you know, after it was complete, block by block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood by neighborhood, and that's why we fired the artillery rounds when we would have engagements, and we knew what area the insurgent would x fil trait, so part of the burm was not yet complete. That's where you're putting rounds, you know. And it's it's a it's an urban environment. So we were definitely not shooting into the civilian populace, but we were shooting very carefully. And I'm I'm again like, this is another thing that I'm proud of.

I think we did a commendable job. I think we did a pretty good job.

Were you guys shooting the nine or eights, the one, nine or eights or.

Now one five five It was a hundred and fifty five millimeters self propelled howitzer. So it's yeah, it's a it's a it's like a gun tube twenty foot gun top on a Paladin, Yeah, on top of basically what to a lot of folks would look like a tank, Like a twenty foot gun tube on a tank, you know what people would see it as.

So we had we shot those. Uh, they supported us when we were shooting out in Fort Hill. It was pretty cool. What was it like riding in one of those things?

Noisy and nothing you'd ever want to like? I mean, I like, uh, they're they're a tracked vehicle, you know. Like to me, it felt very similar to being in another track vehicle. So you know when I when I've ridden in a Bradley fire Support vehicle, which is another vehicle that we had on you know, the unit ledger or like a tank, you know it it's a it's you know, it's a it's a it's a very large metal box and it's uncomfortable and but also it like, weirdly, it can feel like home too.

Oh yeah, I mean you're living the dream inside of one of those, honestly, because you can carry so much stuff, yeah, compared to like guys that are stuffed into like an infantry fighting vehicle or something like that.

So what I will push back on a tiny bit is that in the in the desert in the summer, that metal just absorbs the heat and it radiates like it. I mean it is uh like, first of all, even if a vehicle has air conditioning, whether it continues to work as another thing, but like it like it depended on the environment. So like where we were, but like most of the time, no, you're not riding in it with air conditioning. You're in a you're open hatch or you're you know, you're you're still sweating like a like a hog.

We had a vehicle in Afghanistan that the a se quit working and that was the worst, yeah, to be locked up inside of it because it was it was a m RAP. It was the matt V or no, it was the four by m RAP And you know when you're closed up inside those things, there's just no airflow. It gets so outrageously hot. Honestly, could become a safety issue, I think because it was like extremely but sure, yeah, I always wondered what I'd be like to ride around in one of those things. It still blows my mind that you were an artillery unit during the invasion and shot no artillery rounds. That's crazy because I think all the marine artillery units shot tons and tons of rounds.

You know, yeah, it depends on what part of the like, well for sure, you know, like if you like third Armor or pardon me, third Infantry Division was just ahead of us pushing into the country with the Marine Corps and absolutely right like there they're still fighting off the remaining echelons of the Iraqi Army. But you know, the moment that the shooting stops against a conventional adversary were we're like horrified police officers, but then we start getting engaged, right, so like it's yeah, yeah, it's a little bit of a different thing. And and cops don't fire artillery.

Rounds, so yeah, yeah, that's true. That's got to be such a bummer for all for everybody though, you know, they were hoping they'd get their their combat shot of artillery.

But it was definitely it was definitely like it was an introduction to the fact that the army assigns you in mos you have a job, but the reality is like you don't know what the conditions will be like when you get there, and you need to be prepared for doing anything, right.

Yeah, I mean I think overall the after the invasion, there wasn't really a whole lot. There were moments where there was a ton of artillery shot, but overall there was not during the entire war. It was kind of rare. A lot of the Marine Corps artillery units became provisional infantry units and they would deploy as you know, a reserve kind of infantry battalion. Some of them, I think some of them might have even had their own battle space as an infantry battalion as a reserve infantry or provisional infantry, which is kind of crazy. After you get back from this, you know, you get back from your first deployment, you learned a lot, your brand new lieutenant going going to that, so you know what a life

lesson going right into that and getting all that you know, experience right off the bat. You roll into your your second deployment. What was your what was your billet during that second apployment.

Yeah, I was the Batteries executive officer. So and and again, like we were reorganized to fit the needs of the moment. So the the howitzer battery, an artillery battery that's attached to a cavalry squadron at the time is a bigger artillery battery than normal. And so what we had was we had two artillery platoons where we were running like we were running an artillery a gun like a hot gun all the time, so there was always a responsive fire if it was necessary. And then separate of that, we organized into a dismounted and mounted you know echelon or or you know, the ability to amplify and augment what the maneuver troops were doing. So like we we created a new maneuver echelon out of a out of

an artillery battery. And it was fantastic in the sense that, like I felt like I had all these plates that I was juggling, you know, and you know, every now and then someone would throw in a chainsaw or a live valiator and I'd keep them in the air while it was going and it was I mean, it was really rewarding.

I mean it's just oh yeah, I mean doing something like that where you're being challenged with real world things. You know, these are all real world things with real world impacts on lives, on your lives, on your soldiers' lives, on the civilian populist lives, and being able to get into that and do your job and feel like you're doing it well. It's such a It is such a good feeling. And it's also amplified by the fact that when you're doing that, that's your only focus. You have no idea what's going on back home, what cousin got a dui and so and so did this, and celebrity news.

None of that's going on. You're just focused on this one task, you know, big picture with the team. Here's our objective, let's work on it. And it's just, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, it's something I miss.

So it's funny you say that, because you remember I told you that I was the head of the personal security detachment for the squadron commander during OIF one and we would drive from unit to unit all around the squadron. You know, the squadron had twelve hundred guys or something like that. And this is like April of two thousand and three, so there's no like Internet, there's no smart pune.

You know what I mean, Like, all these things have yet to happen. So we had a little fun and we seeded a rumor because at the time Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck were dating, we seated a rumor that they were in a car accident and Jennifer Lopez died.

Oh were you guys the ones that started that the one that everyone was talking about.

So we were passing it around everywhere, and I kid you not. One day, I'm eating my MRI like at the end of the day, and I overheard one person telling another person and I was like, my life is complete. Eventually we told everybody, hey, this is you know, it didn't happen, but you know, for a moment there, I felt like I was again part of something bigger than myself.

Have you ever seen Generation Kill? Yeah, yeah, it was in that. They talked about it in there at the beginning. That's like, it's such a funny.

It was the it was sort of the how do I put it, like, I know for a fact, it's just it. It traveled it, you know, it traveled, and whether or not I was the first or you know, I was just part of a bigger team.

You know, you were along the chain I was on the.

I was I felt like I felt like a dipshit version of Paul Revere.

No, now, now, you know what a different time because then no technology, there's no smartphones, there's no you're not you're in the desert, there's no way to contact home. Maybe there's like a cell phone or not a cell phone, a pay that they set up that people get to share something like that along those lines, possibly email maybe.

I mean that's even kind of early for that. But now, I mean it just came out a couple of days ago that Youran tracked like US troop movements with their digital footprint for their cell phone usage and stuff like that. For sure, you know what a different environment that we're in.

Now, Yeah, one hundred percent. I mean the phrase that a lot of people use is if you admit you die, like if if you're putting out some sort of an electronic signal in some way, like you can be spotted, and if you can be spotted, you can be shot and killed. So yeah, one hundred percent.

I mean that's what we're seeing in Ukraine, right. I mean, it's just, uh, I am not jealous of anybody that's over there. You know, it's crazy, how back in the day were you before you deployed. When September eleventh happened, a lot of people were like, let's do this, Like I'm ready to go deploy. I'm ready to joined the military and go deploy and fight for my country and you know, get my revenge. What was the vibe of some of your other class. Was everybody in your class like that? Or were there some people like fuck, I didn't sign up for this. I didn't really want to go to a war.

I mean, I would characterize it as a mix, you know, it was the mix that you would expect, so a little bit of one side and a little bit of the other side. For myself, I remember feeling all like kind of all of the things, a little bit excited, a little bit resigned, a little bit like whoa people die there? You know, like all those things a little a blend of all of them together. And I I would imagine if you're able to peel back others while they showed a certain alfact, yeah, like you know, I think everybody felt some kaleidoscope.

So oh, I can't imagine anyone anyone didn't feel some level of anxiety because everything just got real, Like you said, you know, like people are gonna die, like this could this is? And they did? You know, people did die and was it weird? So let's talk about you know, after all of this, you're getting all your combat experience and stuff like that, but eventually you make yourself, you make your way back to West Point. How did that happen?

How do you go back there as an instructor or professor? And what was the feeling like coming back there?

So I got the opportunity, you know, when to teach back at West Point. You apply to do it and I was accepted very gratefully, and then the Army sends you to graduate school for a couple of years, because you know, if you're an active duty Army officer, you haven't and especially if you went to school at West Point, you don't get the opportunity to go to graduate school right away. So the Army he sent me to graduate school.

I had a blast. I really appreciated that time. It felt like it gave me a little bit of space that I needed at that particular moment. And uh, you know, teaching was a blessing too, because all of a sudden, now you know, in my in my early thirties. I am standing in front of the kid that I used to be, and I have the opportunity to have a real impact on that person, not in the least because I'm teaching. So at this point I'm no longer a field artillery officer. I've actually career field designated over to becoming what's called an army strategist, which means basically you're a staff officer for the rest of your career. You're like terminal S three but at at at three and four star level, so yes, like like after that, like

you know, whereas the whole of the Army is about progressing along the career ladder, meaning as vertical right, as a senior staff officer like that, like at three and four star commands, all of your future assignments are flat, like you're you're never going to be in command, you give that up, so to speak. But I had this opportunity where my career field as an army strategist was directly in sync with this class that I was sent there to teach military strategy, and so I really felt every day like I had a sense of purpose, Like every opportunity I had with these with these cadets, you know, and to me, they are kids, even though they're not.

It's the objective is to build a vocabulary into them so that someday when they're in the same spot that I was in, they're prepared to be able to understand the war that they're a part of, that they understand their place in it, and that they're better than I was. And like I there's nothing more motivating than that, right, Like I mean, there just isn't. You're fired up every day to go. And I taught my classes one after the other after the other. It was like chain smoking with teaching, you know. Change I was teaching as a chain smoker. So like, you know, one class to one class to one class, and when you teach, it takes so much energy out of you, like because you know, you've got a room full of bright young adults that

want to understand their chosen profession and you're the one in front of them that's supposed to explain it to them. And I can remember finishing that third consecutive hour of teaching and just my shoulders collapsing and just you know, like exhaling because I felt like I had just like like I get I'd put my guts into it, and and you know, I just like I left everything on the chalkboard. And it didn't even stop there because the major that I taught as a part of it's now called War Studies, but at the time it was called Defense and Strategic Studies. And every year we took groups of cadets to Gettysburg to Antietam, to Saratoga, to all these battlefields that actually later on I wrote about in

in Who Wins Wars? But you know, like there's there's not just an academic side to those experiences. There's a psychological and a and an emotional response too, because you're you're walking in a giant cemetery. You know, you're you're walking on a battlefield where there's bones under the ground. And you know, the thing that I always ended with was, you know, what if what if someone who's buried here could could rise up out of the ground, not in a scary way or a horror movie way, but in a real way and wake up and have a conversation with one of us. You know, they they would ask do you still carry weapons? Do you still fire rifles?

Do you still try to protect yourself? Do you still do you still maneuver as as a as an element, and so many of the answers would be yes. But the one thing that I know for certain that we would have in common with the people that are buried at these battlefields is we all made the same choice. We all raised our right hand at a certain moment of our young lives, and we swore allegiance to defend the constitution mm hm. And like there's you know, this is the bigger This is being a part of something bigger than yourself.

Yeah.

And when you see a young lieutenant or as soon to be lieutenant recognize that and realize it. I mean it, it feels good to be a part of that. Like it's special.

Yeah, it really humanizes it, you know, it makes it like easier to understand. I remember a few years ago I went to the Little Big Horn battlefield. Yeah, and that was a really cool experience to like see the terrain and stuff like that, to see like where how they moved through the terrain and how that could have happened.

And it's like, oh, I see now, like these Rohuran hills are deep, you know, like yeah, things like that. And I grew up in Chattanooga and Tennessee. So we have like Chickamauga Battlefield nearby, and that was a commonplace that we would go and stuff like that. So yeah, I've been lucky to have that kind of experience to kind of see these places where I don't know, all this history, the US history has come from, I.

Mean, and even that experience that you mentioned so little Bighorn. George Armstrong Custer was an amazing cavalry officer and a hero, a hero at Gettysburg. You know, forward on you Wolverines, right, He's leading a Michigan element into the battle and they are very successful, and you know, we might not have won without George Armstrong Custer in the Union Army. Move him forward into a different war, into a different battle, into a different context. He doesn't perform as well. We are rightfully so grateful for the greatest generation in the Second World War, but a lot of those guys grew up to be the leaders that did not perform well in Vietnam or maybe Korea as well. You know, they were not they you know, and so on some level,

this this goes back to that riddle of my life. You know what makes the difference? You know, why? Why? Why does George Armstrong Custer do so well at Gettysburg and in the Civil War, and then he's overconfident and cocky against Native American tribes in the American West.

Well, how could you not be cocky? You just beat the South, right, you know, you're just part of the element that beat the South. If you're used to these logistical supply lines that other people don't have, and you think that you have the best technology, and these pistols rifles that they're using, you know, and oh, these you know, these people, these people that don't know anything that right around you know, these Indians, what would they know?

Well, yeah, yeah, like uh, you know the you remember the phrase out of Afghanistan, these flip flop wearing mf ors, Right, these flip flop wearing motherfuckers. You know what, if you can fight in flip flops and hold your own against a technologically superior force, you deserve our respect. Yeah, I mean, I like I I You see echoes of these experiences across time and on different geographies. It's what makes war, I think, so confusing and so hard to get right.

Well, it's the classic you know, it's the classic thing of not just not underestimating your enemy, not treating them with disrespect. You know, where are they coming from, what are there, what's their background? You got to understand all that to really understand what they're doing and how they're going to act in moments for sure, to really understand. So, yeah, people to immediately dismiss a force. You know, obviously head to head we would just murk every you know, Taliban fighter in Afghanistan head to head. But that's they know that, and they're like, well, why would we do that? Then that's stupid. You know, it's no different than us fighting in the Revolutionary War and the Civil War and doing

like the real warfare stuff. And they're like, well, that's you know, inhumane or that's ungentlemanly like, and it's like, well, yeah, but this is a war. Like what am I supposed to do is roll over and let you take everything.

There's when you evaluate George Washington as a military commander, there's probably an argument that he may be our least successful tactical general that we've ever had. I mean, like it's it's hard to compare apples oranges, but he won the war that mattered most, right, Like, there is a difference between tactical effectiveness and strategic victory. And like I know this, you know, somewhere deep in the recesses of my brain, there are military historians who have have demonstrated that the most effective fighting force in World War One and World War Two was the German Army. That they inflicted a higher percentage of casualties on their adversaries than they sustained in both of those wars. I mean, like

when they were fighting the Soviets, they were knocking them down, like it was a like it was those ducks at the county fair, right or duck hunt or something.

There was just so many of them, correct, But.

They lost both of those wars, right, I mean, like there is an obvious difference. And I think as Americans, we really do, we really can be enamored with the idea of this this technologically superior, tactically excellent force, and we are, I mean, I'm proud of that, but that doesn't necessarily win wars. So, like I you know, we need to always have that deeply embedded in our brains.

You know, we're seeing right now a lot of it is we have been on the forefront of military technology and things like that for a long time, and we're very I wan't. I don't want to say proud, but we're not. We're okay, we deal with having a huge military budget to buy the best, newest thing, the newest technologies and things like that. Whereas that's really great and everything, but how much is a patriot missile cost compared to We're seeing these drones in Iran that cost I think on average thirty thousand dollars. So you're spending what millions of dollars to shoot down this thirty thousand dollars drone?

You know, that's easy to see who's gonna win that one? You know, who's going to outlast there? And yeah, I think we got to move away from and the American people are happy too. We got to move away from this, like just throwing a number out there, you know, well we've put you know, one hundred million dollars towards this problem. Okay, Well what does that even mean? Yeah, you know, like it doesn't mean anything. That doesn't mean anything, Like we have to like figure it out. The mentality of the you know, you learn early on like to keep it simple, stupid mentality is what we got to go back towards it doesn't always have to be the most cutt edge advanced technology because that can always fail us and it

costs so much more to employ, maintain. You know, all of that, a lot of it. We got to also remember some of the simple stuff and kind of bring it back a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I I think that what we find when we look back in history that it's not ge whiz technology, it's not necessarily having more stuff or better stuff. That it often does come down to people and decisions that can make the difference. Now, obviously, if you've got the New York Yankees playing against a Little League team, you know, natural skill and ability is going to pretty much do the job. But that's not really normally the case on most battlefields. On most battlefields, one side has a little bit more than the other, but it's not necessarily overwhelming. And I do think that we really have to pay attention to the human part of this, because in the end, the whole point of a war is

that the world exists one way, and you want it, you want to change it, and you want to make it a different you want things to be different, and that's all happening in and among humankind. And so we always have to be mindful that wars begin with people and they end with people, and everything in between is people.

So yeah, and the military is a very good job, does a very good job of making you kind of forget that. Not forget it, but you become like I hate to say cold hearted, but kind of cold hearted where you're like, well, here's the objective. We got to take care of the objective. You know, there's this these people are here, this is it just becomes one other thing that's part of the briefing. Yeah, you know, the people are and it's not necessarily like, oh, that's a mom with two kids that lives in that compound next to the one we're going to be going into, So you know, what's that going to be?

Like?

You know, it's you don't think about that kind of deal. And I think personally I have tried to get away from that after since I've gotten out of the military. You know, I try to be you know, remember the humane kind. I don't know, like I don't want to say remember humane feelings or whatever, like I'm some kind of cold hearted bastard, but you know what I'm saying, Like, it's when you've seen so many crazy things, or you've been crazy places and stuff. Sometimes you see something here that happens where you're like, oh, okay, well that's crazy, but nobody where the average person who's never seen crazy stuff, they're like what the hell like freaking out and you're just like what that's this? You know, and it's kind

of makes you look like you're a little cold hearted sometimes, you know what I mean.

I think that there's I mentioned it before, but at its core, the military instrument is risking and trading people's lives to achieve some mission, some objective, and we can apply ethics to that, and we can think very deeply about what that means and the impact that it has on other human beings. I think some people take it the other direction, frankly, and they they forget that real life is real life and it's not a video game.

But for me, it's always been a struggle and it's made me. I've gone in the other direction. I mean, you know, frankly, when you get down to it, my military background and the value that we place on sacrifice is why in the why I donated my kidney, because like I wanted to, I wanted to be part of making sure that another person got to survive, got to live.

You know, those those guys that I mentioned that that passed away, that were killed in the Iraq War, there's nothing I can do about them, But there is something that I can do about and for someone else in the here and now. And I like that's what made it a real simple decision for me. So I I you know, I went that other direction.

I think that kind of feeling is way better than any kind of award you could ever receive from the mill terry or professional accolades. You know, when you look at someone and you're like you had an actual effect on their life like that, you know, you save someone's life literally. You know, that's huge, that's huge, and I just can't imagine many things in life kind of top that feeling, especially in your case where you turned it into a thing where multiple people ended up getting their donations, you know.

I mean, like it's up there with with my children, you know it It's just it's a In fact, actually, when my older daughter was younger, she had a seizure condition and she was roughly aged three, and you know, she aged out of it by the time she was nine. I think somewhere around there and not every kid ages out of it. But I remember very clearly when she was in the midst of the highest volume of those seizures, thinking I would literally give my right arm for her not to have these seizures. Yeah, you know, and the idea that someone else out there has their own child who has a physical challenge like kidney failure. You know, we don't have Like we may not have a fix for a lot of cancers or exotic diseases, but for

kidney failure, we've got a silver bullet. And so for me, like I wanted, I wanted to fire that silver bullet, and like I did, and like it. You know, I still feel good about that, Like it doesn't go away. And the thing about kidney transplant, the thing about kidney donation is that people focus on the part of you that gets subtracted, the part of you that gets taken out.

But what they miss is what gets put in the addition, the psychological boost you get from knowing that someone else is hugging their kid or their mom because of something that you did.

Yeah, definitely, Oh man, I can't imagine. I think that's amazing. Well, I think that's great. I think people need to check out your books. You know Who Wins Wars, Best Scar Wins. Both of these they will wrap it up. Where can people find your books at and follow you on social media?

Absolutely? Look, both of them are distributed through Simon and Schuster, So you can go to Simon and Schuster dot com and plug in Best Scar Wins or Who Wins Wars. The publisher is Matt Holt Books. You can go to bestcar Wins dot com or Who Wins Wars dot com and you know, justin Like, when I step back from all of this, you'll notice the word win is in both of those titles, and I think on some level for your listeners that are looking for an edge for understanding performance and who comes out on top and why they come out on top. Both of these books, one of them takes place on battlefields in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and the Second World War, and the other one is a global adventure race series that takes

place in four of the world's worst deserts. But that's the common thread is understanding who wins and why they win and learning some of the tips and ideas that you can pick up from those experiences.

Yeah, I've really enjoyed who wins War. So far, what I've read into it so far, it's been it's been good to read. There was a quote I think right after your publicist from Simon and Schuster sent me the books, or maybe sent me a digital copy. I can't remember, and I remember reading in it. It was like on one of the first pages, on one of the first pages, there was a quote in there that I like, really enjoyed and I sent it back to and I was like, okay, yeah, I'll have them on the show.

It was awesome.

Yeah, man, I really enjoyed it. I think it was a really good interview. I really appreciate you having having you on. I'll put the links to your books in the show description. Everybody, you can check out my websites jacraamographics dot com or angler coshop dot com. My instagram is Former Action Guys and Former Action News. And that's it. Man, I really appreciate you coming on today.

Thanks so much. It was awesome.

Ep. 245 | Matt Cavanaugh | Invasion of Iraq, Artillery Officer, Author

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