Gilmore To Read: Jess, Jamie, Jordan, and Julian Winters

0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: 5, 6, 7, 8 Jordan. [SPEAKER_00]: Hi y'all, welcome or welcome back to Gilmour To Read. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Haley and I'm so glad you're here today. [SPEAKER_00]: It has been a second since we had an episode of Gilmour To Read. [SPEAKER_00]: We skipped January for the book club because I feel like all of us really needed to skip January, but now we are back into the swing of the book club.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we get into this episode with my positively darling guest, Julian Winters, [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to talk about how things are switching up for 2026 and beyond, so rather than hosting both Gilmour to read book clubs at the same time, we're going to be switching between the monthly, so on month will have reading a sexy, our Gilmour inspired romance specific club where we read books that feel like the show, and then the next month will read with where you read our follow, where we read books that we might have read on the show.

0:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Books as you would read today, [SPEAKER_00]: maybe a book or two, another character might have read. [SPEAKER_00]: In March, which is a where you read I will follow month, we are reading the correspondent by Virginia Evans. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this could be a book that Roy reads now, but I also very much see this like on Emily's book club on her end table out in the toolkit that she beats out in her at a rendezak chairs, maybe [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I see such a clear image of her sitting outside reading because I deeply want that for myself, but the correspondent is an epistolary novel following the correspondent of one civil van Antwerp, revealing her history, her enthusiasm, her grief, her love, her fears, and everything in between as we snoop through all of the letters she's written, received, and the ones she hasn't sent.

1:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I absolutely loved this book when I read it. [SPEAKER_00]: It was one of those moments of the curse that I have, where I see the Gilmore Girls and everything that I consume, that the themes were just popping out at me. [SPEAKER_00]: This is so similar to the things that we explore in Gilmore Girls, but so vastly different, especially the relationship between a mother and a daughter and the tension that that is grown.

2:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's so fascinating because we get it in the retelling, not in any sort of dialogue, which I have to admit, I'm not always a fan of an epistolary novel, [SPEAKER_00]: which is a novel that is told through letter writing, and I think that sometimes the purpose of the letters don't feel like they fit into the story that's being told, but I just can't imagine this being told any other way.

2:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that we're exploring an older woman and older character, not dissemilar to Emily, something that I really like about this book club pick, is that where you do follow doesn't necessarily have to have the themes of Gilmore Girls, it's [SPEAKER_00]: more of like what the characters might read themselves, but I feel like this fits both prompts really, really well.

2:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to join the discussion, you can head over to Patreon where we're chatting about it with the club. [SPEAKER_00]: We're also doing some letter writing prompts if you want to join in in the style of civil. [SPEAKER_00]: Plus, we're talking about the announcement that Jane Fonda will play in the movie adaptation, which we're all very curious about, because of course it's told through letters.

3:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So how are we going to adapt this for a visual medium? [SPEAKER_00]: We're very excited to find out, and if you have any thoughts about it, head over to Patreon, it's free to join. [SPEAKER_00]: And because March is a where you read our follow-man, that means that last month February was a reading a sexy month where our pick and our Gilmore inspired romance specific pick was last first kiss by today's guest, Julian Winters, our first man of the book club.

3:24 [SPEAKER_00]: which if he was like deserves a little round of applause for him because it is long overdue. [SPEAKER_00]: So many of our favorite episodes of Gamma Rolls were written by men on the writing team. [SPEAKER_00]: We love the Dan Paladino episodes, we love Stan Zimmerman episodes and James Burr.

3:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Naturally, [SPEAKER_00]: we love to say there's nothing like a man written by a woman, but I think that is also very true of a man written by a queer man that really just heightens that romantic story experience for the reader because this club is about finding the themes of Gilmore Girls and offering them in a new packaging like a last first kiss.

3:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I absolutely devoured this book. [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of compared it to Gilmore Girls needs heated rivalry, meets the wedding planner, the movie with Jennifer Lopez, [SPEAKER_00]: that I feel like if you put all of those and like took the little bits of the energy, which I honestly feel like upon you hearing that, you're like, that is an interesting combo, Haley.

4:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think you'll see it when you dive into it because I just couldn't put it down. [SPEAKER_00]: I loved it so much. [SPEAKER_00]: I think I read this book in about three days, and if you're a fan of Abbey Hemenez and B.K. [SPEAKER_00]: Morrison in the same way that I am, [SPEAKER_00]: I think that you'll love Julian Winters and his Atlanta-based adult romances, especially the writing.

4:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very atmospheric and deep feeling and also very funny. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a perfect light-hearted, romantic comedy with nods to your favorite romance movies. [SPEAKER_00]: while maintaining an exploration of self that feels so relatable. [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like all of those things are representative of like, come more girls, eat a rivalry and the wedding plan.

4:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Just read it, I promise. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you haven't read last first case yet and you didn't read it with the club, let me tell you a bit about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me read you the synopsis so you can maybe get a better sense of what it is I'm trying to explain. [SPEAKER_00]: They say you never forget your first kiss, but Jordan Carter wishes he could forget the one he shared with Jamie Peters as teens.

5:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And the one they almost shared again last year before Jamie made it clear he wasn't the right man for Jordan to be with while he's figuring himself out. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Jordan's fully focused on his career at 24 Carter Gold, his family's event planning company and ready to move on. [SPEAKER_00]: Until this boss assigns him to plant a new client's high profile wedding.

5:30 [SPEAKER_00]: The bride's man of honor? [SPEAKER_00]: None other than Jamie. [SPEAKER_00]: As things ramp up, the closer they get to the wedding. [SPEAKER_00]: So does Jordan's relationship with Jamie with sarcasticicides turning into steamy hookups, but can Jordan afford to pursue Jamie if he's still unsure of who he is, or is knowing who he loves enough.

5:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you shopping cake tastings and dress fittings with the man he can't forget, just might change the man Jordan Carter is meant to become. [SPEAKER_00]: Last first case, Spadulean Winters is a second chance romance about finding yourself and the love of your life. [SPEAKER_00]: I can always tell that I love a book when I'm reading the synopsis or someone is describing the book to me and I get chills while I'm reading it.

6:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because I've such an affection for the characters and the things that they're going through now and I want you to have that too. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the best feeling that came from this book was realizing that I found a new writer that I absolutely love that's just so easy to just sink into because that's really what it was [SPEAKER_00]: Which is so gummork rolls, do you know what I mean?

6:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And Julian loves gummork rolls. [SPEAKER_00]: He's such a funny and warm person and meeting him once will absolutely show case why his books have such an authentic heart to them. [SPEAKER_00]: And he also has a gummork rolls reference. [SPEAKER_00]: In last first kiss, which I have to mention, hit the USA today by sourlist and it's first week which is incredible.

6:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Now a bit about Julian himself. [SPEAKER_00]: Julian Winters is the best selling in award-winning author of a claim novels including running with lions and IBPA Benjamin Franklin Gold Award [SPEAKER_00]: winner, right where I left you, a Georgia P to word nominee, as well as adult romances I think they love you in last first kiss, a USA Today Best Seller, a self-proclaimed comic book geek.

7:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Julian currently lives outside of Atlanta where he can be found suining over romcoms or watching the only two sports he can follow, volleyball and soccer. [SPEAKER_00]: You can find Julian on Instagram at Winters Julian or on his website, JulianWinters.com. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited for y'all to hear more about Julian's history of writing and how he got into novels.

7:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it'll probably feel really familiar to a lot of you. [SPEAKER_00]: Also, his love of Gilmore Girls and the show as a whole. [SPEAKER_00]: And whether a night he likes that character that he referenced in his book. [SPEAKER_00]: and of course we'll talk about his process and his thoughts behind writing last first kiss.

7:38 [SPEAKER_00]: There are many spoilers in this episode, so feel free to enjoy to the end, where a few of our book club besties submitted questions that were included, so if you have any burning questions for our book club authors, be sure to head over to patron and join the club so that you can submit yours.

7:52 [SPEAKER_00]: But before you do that, I know you'll love him. [SPEAKER_00]: So without further ado, here is Julia Midders. [SPEAKER_00]: As we were talking about before Gillian, which I know for a fact that I'm going to call you both Jordan and Jamie because all of your names start with Jay, at some point during this, it's fair, it's fair, mistakes were made.

8:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's all there, but like when I looked down, I was like, it says Julian. [SPEAKER_00]: This is Julia. [SPEAKER_00]: This is not Jordan and this is not Jamie. [SPEAKER_00]: But I first saw you in conversation with Ashley Postan at the Eagle Eye Bookstore in Decater. [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the reasons I came to that event was of course because I love Ashley.

8:29 [SPEAKER_00]: She had just recently been on the podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: But because I was about to do my first like be someone's conversation partner. [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about Ashley Jordan. [SPEAKER_00]: and bunch of Ashley's here. [SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to go see, I'd like seen a bunch of author conversations, but I wanted to go with like the intention of like watching the conversation partner and seeing how you led the conversation and interact with the audience.

8:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And like it was one of those things. [SPEAKER_00]: It was like you were the most [SPEAKER_00]: absolute perfect person to see do that because you're like so perfectly funny and endearing, but like you really captivate the audience and like the game you played with so much fun, but like you just feel like such a warm beam and like very clearly you and Ashley are good friends, but it just so I was like I felt a lot more confident going into like my future discussions with authors after having watched you and I was like I need him on the podcast immediately.

9:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, this is so amazing because I was at your event that you did and yeah, we're so, so good. [SPEAKER_02]: I being in conversation, like yeah, it's just such great personal questions, book questions, just kept the flow going, it was really great. [SPEAKER_00]: And that was my first time doing that.

9:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So knowing that you were there was like, if our own little full circle moment because I felt inspired by you doing that, that was like, watching you, I like, I feel like I brought you to it. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you brought you to it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's what it was.

9:52 [SPEAKER_00]: But we're here to talk about your latest release, of course, but at the time when I saw you with Ashley Postan, which I always make set up, was you said that your next release was named after a one-direction song, and I went home and I told my sister, I was like, I have a new book for us to read because we are such directors.

10:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you guys can't see it over the audio medium right now. [SPEAKER_00]: But Julian is wearing a one-direction sweatshirt, and I am frankly jealous. [SPEAKER_02]: I listen, will forever be a directioner and will forever be proud of that moment, so yeah, yeah, very happy to be talking about that.

10:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well before we get into Gamma Girl, I do have to ask you about one direction. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how did you get into it? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, are you were you from the beginning? [SPEAKER_02]: I was not. [SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea who one direction was. [SPEAKER_02]: It just [SPEAKER_02]: As with all great shipping facilities, something comes through, it busts open the contents while everywhere.

10:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And this one night, a box, I got ways busted open. [SPEAKER_02]: And out flies, a life size, uh, one of those cardboard, uh, cutouts of zane. [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't know, hey, oh, this, this was from the universe for you. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh. [SPEAKER_02]: It was for the universe and I was like who is Zane and what is the one direction and then all of a sudden when I got home I spent like the next few days in like this rabbit hole of searching one direction and learning more about them and I was [SPEAKER_00]: that is like quite frankly the most unique and best like one direction origin story I've ever heard in my life it feels like the universe was like we're not getting through to him we have to just bust right open in his face in his place of work a hundred percent and it came like like the right time because I need it something I was going to like have to tough time in my life and so I really need something bring me joy and that

11:48 [SPEAKER_02]: hooked me immediately and I fell into that fandom and they, like, quite literally saved my life. [SPEAKER_02]: So it was, it was an amazing thing that the universe gave me and I will forever be grateful. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a faith album? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's, that's tough. [SPEAKER_02]: I've really do love midnight memories.

12:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm always going to be a fan of the first album, just because like that was my first experience with them. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm watching like their concert DVD and whatnot. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just like, yeah, so of course. [SPEAKER_00]: 100% that one in four always get four yes.

12:26 [SPEAKER_00]: There's just something about like the album being named four and then the next album there's only four of them it's [SPEAKER_00]: Your man's ain't he he left. [SPEAKER_00]: I will say in college. [SPEAKER_00]: I did have one of those cut out life size No way, but it was Harry of course.

12:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That's there. [SPEAKER_00]: That's very. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah My family got me one for my birthday and I was like, oh you guys is so silly I'm gonna keep it in my room for the rest of the year [SPEAKER_03]: that's so much. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: But so when you said last first kiss, like I think like the last week, every time I've thought about this interview, it has like made this song like permanently stuck in my mind.

13:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I've just been non-stop, so I went on a little like one direction, like re discovering all of my favorite songs this week because of you, so I can only, I can only [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm glad that it took you there, honestly, because every time I say the title, my goal, yeah, there goes the song.

13:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, yep, love. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, here we are. [SPEAKER_00]: And what a song. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, what a good title for this book. [SPEAKER_00]: So like, what a great choice. [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the more people that know that it comes from one direction, the only more and more people are going to come, because I feel like book girlies, like the book, like reading community, and the one direction fandom, are like almost a circle at this point.

13:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, yeah, that vindyagram that the middle portion is just getting wider and wider wider and I love it Me too. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much crossover the Gilmore Girls fandom has with one direction I mean I definitely fit into that, but I don't know how how much that is a circle I think that's definitely still a vindyagram.

13:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was thinking about that, too. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I wonder because they came on so late in that stage like where Gilmour Gross was, had they come out like five years sooner where that would have led it. [SPEAKER_02]: That would have been amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm interested.

14:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I have to put a pull-up to see how many of our like listeners are one-directioners or Directioners. [SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of Gilmour Girls, Gilmour Girls came out in October 2000. [SPEAKER_00]: What were you writing in the year 2000? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, the year 2000, this is such a good question because I feel like I might have either been like tailing off of like Sailor Moon.

14:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Fandom. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I was tailing off because some of the stuff that I do remember getting into didn't start happening until like 2002, 2003. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like yeah, I was probably writing Sailor Moon family.

14:53 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: that's beautiful and I love that for you. [SPEAKER_00]: Did that like it start like your love of writing or had you already been a writer at that point? [SPEAKER_02]: My love of writing actually so I'm really going to date myself here. [SPEAKER_02]: It actually started with Thundercats.

15:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I was such a fan as a kid of the show that I was super young men and then they, you know, cartoon network by kind of brought it back. [SPEAKER_02]: They brought back so many great classic shows when they first started. [SPEAKER_02]: So I got right back into watching it And I just remember thinking, God, I really hated how this show ended and I didn't know what fan fiction was at the time So I was just like I want to rewrite it because they did my favorite characters so dirty and so I just went in and I Started writing and this was in the time of like geocity So I built my own website so I could put my story so far and then end up falling into the fan fiction hole [SPEAKER_00]: That's like one of my favorite things that like so many authors have told me is that like independent of like ao3 and fanfiction.net and like I guess like some people do it on wordpress etc is that they found what fanfiction was they like discovered it within themselves of like I didn't like the storyline and I'm going to rewrite it and now I have it somehow like independently invented fanfiction that like so many other people have also found

16:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just love that so much that it's like that little writer was like always inside of you, waiting to bust out with your own stories. [SPEAKER_00]: At what point did you let transition from fan fiction to Julian Winters of originals? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, it wasn't till late 2014. [SPEAKER_02]: I was in the one direction fandom.

16:24 [SPEAKER_02]: and I was writing fanfiction and it's a funny thing because like you had just mentioned there are so many authors who started in fanfiction who continued right in fanfiction and it just so happens that there was a published author at the time who was in the same fanom as me the same ship as me and she like we had great communication in one day she was just like I love your fanfiction but you would be amazing writing something original.

16:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And that never crossed my mind, I never thought I was going to become an author that was not in my goals. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just something I did for fun on the weekends. [SPEAKER_02]: And so she said, you know, if you ever decided to pursue this, I will 100% help you. [SPEAKER_02]: I will answer any questions you have about publishing.

17:03 [SPEAKER_02]: If I don't know, I'll send you the right directions. [SPEAKER_02]: And she did. [SPEAKER_02]: When I sat down late 2020, 2014 started writing. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, okay, let's go. [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do this as I write my own original novel, finished. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the draft I sent out for submission was done by early 2016.

17:18 [SPEAKER_02]: That's took a while for me to figure out how to do this day. [SPEAKER_00]: Does it ever? [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I've been, because I'm writing my first book right now, and I feel like it's been taking me like last 16 years to do it. [SPEAKER_00]: Probably not that long, but it feels a long time.

17:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because those ideas live inside of you for so long that they kind of like take up this permanent residence. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and like, even when I feel like after you publish them, there's like this part of them that like still like just they've taken up a home, they have this little neighborhood of like finished books that exist.

17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You were writing in YA at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I was writing YA. [SPEAKER_00]: What drew you to YA versus adult? [SPEAKER_02]: It was honestly because I grew up especially in high school reading a lot of books that didn't resonate with me mainly because if those books featured a black character or a queer character or a black and a queer character [SPEAKER_02]: they always had a tragic sad storyline that ended up in them eventually dying, you know, people who looked like me or I didn't like me never made it to the happily ever after and that was such a hard thing to process as a teenager because imagine you're just reading these books and I'm like, oh that's me, oh that's awful.

18:28 [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have any kind of like aspirations or dreams because this is what books are telling. [SPEAKER_02]: And these are the books that they say are the the greats, you know, you have to read this or amazing. [SPEAKER_02]: And they are amazing storytelling, but like to receive that kind of message at that age was so hard and made me a very reluctant reader.

18:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So when I decided to be published, I said, [SPEAKER_02]: I will not allow another teen who looks like me or identifies like me to experience that again, where they don't have hopes to make it to 30 years old, 40 years older, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: They don't feel like they deserve a happy ending because every book that's handing to them, they don't get that.

19:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I made it my mission. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm gonna write why, because I don't want someone that young to have everything crushed for the sake of storytelling. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that that's a beautiful reason to go into it to like look back at the generation that's coming up behind you and being like, I can bring the happiness that I didn't see for you.

19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's excellent. [SPEAKER_00]: What shifted that then from writing so many YA novels to then starting out in adult romance? [SPEAKER_00]: Like what was that flip from YA to adult? [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, I had always planned to write adult also, but I just kept getting these YA ideas and kept writing those books.

19:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And finally, my agent, you know, we were discussing future projects. [SPEAKER_02]: And she was like, well, you're about to publish your fifth YA book. [SPEAKER_02]: Do you plan to write anything else? [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, there's your sign from the universe. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't need to write another YA go finally write that adult.

19:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So I honestly I could fully credit her for giving me that little nudge to say, hey, you've been in this one space for a long time. [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to go other places with your writing? [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I finally was like, okay, I'm gonna tackle that adult idea that I've had for like you said ages.

20:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that and I think that sometimes we do need that little nudge from someone whether it be a package exploding at work or from your agent who's like, you can do you can do that and you're like, yeah, you are right, I can totally do that. [SPEAKER_00]: and you can and you did because one of my favorite things I haven't sitting here behind me so your first adult romance is called I think they love you and one of the reasons I adored this is because I purchased it that day that I met you the first time and it starts with them talking about the University of Georgia which is where I went so immediately I'm adhered to it but when you when you personalize it it's so cute y'all of course it's called I think they love you you cross it out and right no so it says I know they love you

20:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like I think I've shown this to like everyone who knows me. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like look what he does when he personalizes it. [SPEAKER_00]: It's so cute Which I just was I'm in love with but I'm reading this one right now because I finished last first kiss in about three days and I was like, oh Oh, I have to you.

21:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to [SPEAKER_00]: I have to go back. [SPEAKER_00]: I have to go backwards. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm in the middle of reading this because they exist in the same universe of course, but we'll talk about last first kiss in just a second. [SPEAKER_00]: But what was like that idea that like I imagine you had a bunch of ideas for some sort of adult romance?

21:22 [SPEAKER_00]: What was like made that one from I think they love you like the one that you wanted to spend the next however many months drafting in. [SPEAKER_02]: so many months that book took so long so I am a huge fan of fake dating. [SPEAKER_02]: It is my favorite romantic trope and I always said to myself I want to write a fake dating romance because it's I like consume them so much I was like you have to do you know your own version of it.

21:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And I, in my mind, I was like, oh, yeah, it's going to be originally going to be like set at a wedding, and they were going to be each others like fake day to this wedding. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just didn't really have like a really solid concept. [SPEAKER_02]: But that's where I knew I wanted to go.

21:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so wild. [SPEAKER_02]: I just, again, universe step right in. [SPEAKER_02]: I was listening to this album by a little known artist by the name of Taylor Swift. [SPEAKER_02]: one or two of her songs? [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: She's not really big, but you know, people may have heard of her.

22:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I was listening to the song New Year's Day, which I adore so much, and I was kind of listening to the bridge where she's saying, you know, please don't ever let me become a stranger who's laugh. [SPEAKER_02]: You could recognize anywhere. [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: It hit me, I was like, oh wait, this is actually a bigger story.

22:39 [SPEAKER_02]: It should be two exes fake dating, and it should be like a second chance romance, because I think we all have that person where it's like, I don't want you to ever forget the sound of my laughter. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't ever want you to forget this piece of me that we shared. [SPEAKER_02]: together.

22:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And vice versa. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to ever forget yours. [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's where it kind of all started clicking. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, okay, this is not like a wedding story. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just something bigger. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just could not get rid of it.

23:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I was like, okay, this has to be. [SPEAKER_02]: This has to be the one. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when you said that line, that one always gives me such chills. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, when I'm listening to that song, because it's just such like a concise way to explain your affection for someone.

23:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I feel like that's such a good line to be inspired by. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I'm not super far into it, but like in what I have read, I can already start to feel that in there. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, as you're talking about it, I'm trying to map it onto the story. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, oh, I just love your book so much.

23:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm like a brand new reader to you, but like, [SPEAKER_00]: I just love them and that's why I wanted to bring you on here today because I just feel like so many people are going to love your books once they want to pick them up. [SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of books in high school, Roy was an avid reader, like one of her main characteristics, of course, was being a reader.

23:52 [SPEAKER_00]: What would be a tree of books that are so julien, like one to define your teens, one to define your 20s, and one to define your 30s? [SPEAKER_02]: To define my teens, there is a book called Aerosado and Dante discovered the secret to the universe by Benjamin Alaris signs. [SPEAKER_02]: And that book, I didn't read it until I was in my 30s, but it is such a great book, and it was like a first time I saw a, [SPEAKER_02]: teen gay boy allowed to be soft, allowed to, you know, love his family, you know, unapologetically.

24:25 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just so much about that book where I was like, oh gosh, if I, teen Julian would have been so much better, had he had this to read in school. [SPEAKER_02]: So that would definitely define like it for me. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, my 20s. [SPEAKER_02]: Missy times, Missy time. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I feel like just from like a main character energy kind of perspective, it would probably read white royal blue.

24:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like Alex Claremont Diaz is very messy. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, as hard as he tries to be perfect, I feel like that was me and my 20s. [SPEAKER_02]: And my thirties, that's a great question because I feel like that's when I was truly starting to discover myself and and figure out the Julian I wanted to be versus Julian that everyone expected me to be.

25:11 [SPEAKER_02]: If I can cheat and use my own book, I kind of feel like last first kiss. [SPEAKER_02]: It's such a journey to self discovering and becoming the person that you feel is most authentic to you. [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that is a true definition of my thirties. [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I have now done everything that everyone wanted me to do and none of it worked out.

25:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So now I'm going to start doing it my way. [SPEAKER_00]: I really love that. [SPEAKER_00]: I was talking to someone in their day who they were telling me about one of their friends who was like turning 30 in the next couple years and she was like, it feels like a death sentence and we were both on our 30s and we were like, what?

25:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Like literally your 30s is like the best part of my life thus far. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like I know who I am. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't care what anyone else thinks about that. [SPEAKER_00]: I do what I want to do and so like whenever I hear that from someone who's like kind of afraid to leave their 20s I'm like get out get out of there and turn 30 You just don't understand that when you get to those 30s you don't understand how fond that you're gonna look back on the swans and say I'm glad I am done with that Absolutely that part is over Another question kind of Gilmore girls related is if Laura lies known for her coffee addiction What would your friends and family know you for?

26:18 [SPEAKER_02]: It would probably be that I am a very picky eater. [SPEAKER_02]: It like it never fails when they ask what I want. [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're always like, oh, you're so bougie. [SPEAKER_02]: Like you just can't have just this regular thing. [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be like, if we're cooking at home, it has to be named brand.

26:36 [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be of this quality. [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because they do give me shit. [SPEAKER_02]: But like in like the most loving way. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm always like, yeah, you're right. [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I could, you know, lower my standards, [SPEAKER_00]: But like, why would I?

26:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it could, but why would I want to? [SPEAKER_00]: In the words of Slina Gomez. [UNKNOWN]: Ha ha ha ha. [SPEAKER_00]: No, I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of Gilmore girls, let's chat a bit about Gilmore girls because when I came up to get my book signed from you at Eagle Eye, that was like one of the first things I wanted to know about you was if you were Gilmore girls fan.

27:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that was like the first question because I was like, I really want to have him on the podcast, but like, I need to know if he's a Gilmore girls fan. [SPEAKER_00]: Because like it's not a requirement, like we can talk about other things, like if not like Kennedy Ryan came on and she'd never seen Gilmore girls before, but boy did she love TV and so I was excited to talk to you about whatever sort of TV and film and media you find comforting.

27:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But you were Gamarko's fan. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, good, great. [SPEAKER_00]: Love this. [SPEAKER_00]: Excited. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you had a Gamarko's reference in a last first kiss. [SPEAKER_00]: There was an idea more reference. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: And it is a bit distinctly towards this particular character.

27:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you love Emily Gamarko or do you hate her or love to hate her somewhere in between? [SPEAKER_02]: I genuinely love Emily Gamarko. [SPEAKER_02]: The reference was more so so I could get people to like visually kind of see. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was there. [SPEAKER_00]: I knew exactly who this one was.

28:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I love her, but I get how she can be off putting upon like first meeting for like a lot of viewers and whatnot, but for me, I immediately, I was like, oh yeah, dry, sense of humor, like, to the point, no filter. [SPEAKER_02]: That to me is me. [SPEAKER_02]: So I love him. [SPEAKER_02]: But I was like, but I don't maybe I'm in the minority.

28:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So let me give them a way that they have access to this character. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, but I feel like if you don't have like the background like her solo scene seeing when she's like emotionally reflective, if you don't have that and you see her like the way that the characters presented in the book that you compare to Emily, I'm like, yeah, I see who this is no worries, I've got it and I loved that and so I wanted to know how you felt about her having the little reference in there, but you love her.

28:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I do, I do, but I am also a person who does cling to those characters where, you know, we don't get everything at face value immediately. [SPEAKER_02]: You got to kind of peel back the layers and really get to know them. [SPEAKER_02]: And that I feel like that is those are always my favorite characters.

29:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, me too. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that when I was younger, I found her to be quite harsh, of course, because I've been watching this since like 2005, and then I was like, wow, her mom's really mean, and as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh, can't deny it. [SPEAKER_00]: She's amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no one has one liners, like, I'm like, oh, more, and it's just like, no, I guess.

29:20 [SPEAKER_00]: When did you first start watching Comea Girls? [SPEAKER_02]: I started when it first came out because that one was that was when I was in my hardcore like WBCW Yeah, yeah, things like I was watching all of the shows every night. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was like Dawson's Creek was on the end.

29:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Dawson's Creek. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah [SPEAKER_02]: Buffy was still on back then. [SPEAKER_02]: I was watching, you know, the Wayne brothers on like Sundays, like there was so many different shows that I loved. [SPEAKER_02]: So I started in the beginning, but then I kind of, I think I fell off because of like school because I was still in like high school design.

29:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So they're like, oh, I can't stay up to like, so I got to do school. [SPEAKER_02]: I got to wake up with more. [SPEAKER_02]: So like, I fell off a bit with it. [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but of course, I'm going to start being on streaming again. [SPEAKER_02]: I caught back up. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's a lot of people's experience.

30:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Either they watch on like ABC family or the WB and like picked back up with Netflix or they never experience that because they're too young and only watch it on streaming. [SPEAKER_00]: I never actually like saw it in its entirety because like I watched it on the WB in Season 5. [SPEAKER_00]: I watched it on ABC family and I had the box at.

30:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't actually see the series in order until like 2008, 2009. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, wow. [SPEAKER_00]: This makes a lot more sense in order. [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's obviously because I can't imagine. [SPEAKER_02]: With the different store lines I had going on, I can't imagine seeing different parts at different times.

30:38 [SPEAKER_02]: You would definitely need some serious context. [SPEAKER_00]: I needed some serious context. [SPEAKER_00]: And once the WB and the ABC family episodes kind of started to overlap, I was like, where? [SPEAKER_00]: What is going on? [SPEAKER_00]: Where are we? [SPEAKER_00]: But that made me like such a Logan girl to come into the show in Season 5.

30:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Because that was the first boyfriend I met, and I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a team? [SPEAKER_00]: Cause like, whenever I ask the book club for questions, someone always has to be the one to be like, ask them what team they are on, and I'm like, it's just a default for me now. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so hard looking back on it, because I don't know if I ever felt anyone was just right.

31:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It's her who was such an interesting character, where it's almost like, I think the writers did her sometimes a disjustice with some of these guys where I'm just like, [SPEAKER_02]: They're not actually what she probably needs in her life, but I, Loki, will always be Team Jessica. [SPEAKER_00]: I sent it about you.

31:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you would love a guy who only loves no one but you. [SPEAKER_00]: You were his sunshine and everyone else is his reign. [SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of five. [SPEAKER_00]: I almost wanted to guess for you. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wait, let me see if I'm right. [SPEAKER_00]: You could have told me that.

31:49 [SPEAKER_02]: because I do flip back and forth a lot where, you know, when I go back and watch certain episodes, I'm like, actually, this was something great happening here. [SPEAKER_02]: Why didn't we capitalize on this a little better? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, no, you have to keep, you gotta keep the viewers coming back and yearning for more so you can't always make it perfect.

32:05 [SPEAKER_02]: But, [SPEAKER_00]: Loki went to be a little more. [SPEAKER_00]: But that's where I was writing Gilmore Girl's Fanfiction as a teenager because I was like, we, what if things were a little more perfect with Logan? [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I didn't write as much as I read, but I was like, such a reader.

32:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, there was someone wrote like the entirety of season five and six from Logan's perspective. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I can't find it now, but like, that was my, that was my everything. [SPEAKER_00]: I loved that. [SPEAKER_00]: And then they stopped updating for season seven. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Heartbroken, so that was a lot of me trying to like find that perfect balance because that's not That wasn't Gilmore girls to find that find that perfect balance in the relationships because that's not no always real Right, which is fair.

32:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I you know I do appreciate that from Gilmore girls you get such a very real look I mean they're in this wonderful small town, but you get such very real stories and very real people But there were types or I just like but please please this one time everyone be happy just one time, please [SPEAKER_00]: So I will say, I always joke on the podcast.

33:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So I love the conflict because my favorite episodes are where the characters are yelling each other in the streets, screaming each other in the kitchen. [SPEAKER_00]: I just love that because the actors are so good at it. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a favorite type of episode that you like to go to maybe early seasons or later seasons?

33:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like because I am such a fan of a slower her, I very much am drawn to like the earlier seasons where you as the viewer see this thing between Luke and Laura and you're just like, I see it, I see it, it's slowly unfolding like I [SPEAKER_02]: I am that person who wants to scream at the TV kids already.

33:38 [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't want to do this. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't ruin it, like this. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, don't ruin it. [SPEAKER_02]: But also like, please, you've been dragging this out for like so long. [SPEAKER_02]: So for me, those will always be my favorite episodes and seasons where it's like, it's not there, it's not there.

33:52 [SPEAKER_02]: We're getting creep and closer. [SPEAKER_02]: Now we're taking five steps back, so. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you like that moment when they finally kiss at the end of season four? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like on the front porch? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, because I think I feel like, again, that felt so real and so organic and so true to them instead of, you know, a lot of times, especially with romantic sort of lines, when the things finally do happen has to be this big massive scene.

34:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my dream. [SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel about that moment that we've been like waiting for, being juxtaposed against worry, having an affair with Dean and sleeping with Dean, like that's in Lorelyce storyline and that's in Rory's, like, couldn't be more different. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, again, it's just like, you the writers were determined to make us happy and then suffer.

34:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I do not appreciate this at all. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it was such a, it's such a, like we're contrasting kind of thing to have, especially because I felt the evolution towards that. [SPEAKER_02]: And who we, who, the role of it in the very, very beginning of the show, first is that moment, or just like, oh, okay.

35:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I had your policies and lead on the podcast late last year and she called that episode her break up with worry episode because she just like, she couldn't do it with worry anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: Her worry were over at that point that that was that was it for them. [SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, I didn't do, like, I guess because I'm such a, you know, like, oh, everybody deserves the chance.

35:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, there's been explained things in the, it's going to be okay. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I am definitely that I can make him better kind of person. [SPEAKER_02]: So I just, it's okay. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just waited out. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe maybe to be different. [SPEAKER_02]: But I also do agree that that was a turning point where it was like, either you guys don't know what to do with, or are you, I just tried to piss me off, so.

35:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I know that the creators have said that that was always kind of what they felt was right was for her first time to be with Dean. [SPEAKER_00]: And we've always been like, why? [SPEAKER_00]: There was so, why? [SPEAKER_00]: Why? [SPEAKER_00]: Why? [SPEAKER_00]: Why Dean? [SPEAKER_00]: We somewhere just as Dean sucks.

36:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're like, we're not about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no at all. [SPEAKER_00]: Why are some things that you really love about the show, whether it's characters, or like settings, or if there's like episode that you love, what something that you like has drawn you and kept you invested in the show?

36:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely think setting played a big part. [SPEAKER_02]: I spit my adolescence growing up in a small town in New York. [SPEAKER_02]: So, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: By the time the show came out, I was already living in Atlanta, but it brought me back to what it was like to be a kid again in like the small town and just set feeling up.

36:38 [SPEAKER_02]: We all know each other and we all know each other's businesses. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fine. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that definitely brought me back. [SPEAKER_02]: The cozy atmosphere also, I think, you know, because the world has always been fraught. [SPEAKER_02]: But it feels like there's certain moments where [SPEAKER_02]: you get to kind of escape into this world and they have their own shit going on, obviously.

36:57 [SPEAKER_02]: But it still does not feel nearly as bad as our own real world. [SPEAKER_02]: So that definitely like drew me in. [SPEAKER_02]: I was such and I will always be like a huge suki fan. [SPEAKER_02]: So like this is my car seat. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: That character is like her really kept me in the show also because it just felt so real to see someone like that in that setting.

37:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, speaking of her something that we found out about her character like the more that we like looked into the show is that there was a potential for her character to be lesbian, but there was push back from the studio saying that like they weren't they weren't going to have that type of character.

37:34 [SPEAKER_00]: on their show, but it's one of those things that makes me wonder of like how real is this like memory of like this beginning of the show? [SPEAKER_00]: Was it really the studio? [SPEAKER_00]: Was it like within the writer's room and I'm always like so curious about like how this came out, but it was said by Amy that that was her intention for Suki.

37:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm always like, oh that would have been such an interesting dynamic tech character. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think 100%, it would have been, I also 100% believe that it was the studio, so much as I love, you know, like that generation like WB, ABC Family, whatnot. [SPEAKER_02]: The overarching of all the shows where they only went so far before it was just like, no, you know, it's like, they didn't tear.

38:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So I totally believe that. [SPEAKER_02]: But I would think it would have been amazing to have Suki as it last been in that setting and living her best life and what that would have done for so many viewers would be in an incredible [SPEAKER_00]: Especially with a character who's like so soft and funny and just like loving as she is, we always have like a little fanfiction in the back of our mind because originally Luke's character was going to be a woman and the woman was going to own the diner and so like in alternate universe gunmore girls there are the ones who have like that relationship and lore like it's love outside of the kitchen is what we said but that we have always very invested in that.

38:49 [SPEAKER_00]: The only reason that we like ever feel like, hmm, like, is that true that it was just the studio? [SPEAKER_00]: Is there kind of unwillingness to address Michelle's sexuality? [SPEAKER_00]: Because it seems like it like goes so back and forth and then we get to the revival he has a husband.

39:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, wait, we missed a couple chapters. [SPEAKER_02]: We did. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it's kind of, I've been sort of off subject, but on top of you. [SPEAKER_02]: I've been watching the Theory of Reality Check of America's next top model. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, me too. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love it.

39:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good. [SPEAKER_02]: But I, I, I, I, I, I look at that. [SPEAKER_02]: Something like that where they're talking about the, you know, how producers and what not when it's certain things in earlier seasons, not to happen or to happen. [SPEAKER_02]: And then in later seasons, it's like the reverse.

39:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do feel like, yeah, it, it times progressed enough where, you know, the studios are just like, [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this one character, you can do this one thing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's like the one thing that we have to be really judicial almost about with the show of like we have to remember it's the 2000s.

39:48 [SPEAKER_00]: These are just like were the norms within the studios and who controlled what was being put on the screen. [SPEAKER_00]: So when we come back to the show, there's like kind of that, you know, very 2000s aspect about it. [SPEAKER_00]: But that's one of the reasons why I want to have this book club is because with your book, I feel like it's taking those themes that we love about like meddling families, complex families, but like finding like this found friendship, tumultuous relationship with a frenemy, kind of discovering yourself that these are themes that we really love from Gilmore Girls, but what would all these themes that we love with a romance feel like if it was written from a unique voice of a queer black writer,

40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: that like aren't specifically a man because you were actually the first man that we have selected for our book club we being me because I felt like it was one of those things of like men written by women feels like very Gilmore Girls coded but after two years of doing this romance book club of like various authors tons of different types of writers in romance I was like [SPEAKER_00]: And there's nothing better than like, you know, a queer man written by a man written by a queer man.

41:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, this is what we need to bring into the club to really do what I'm wanting to do with it, which is like infuse these themes and this like feeling of a unique voice that people go to. [SPEAKER_00]: Gilmore calls for. [SPEAKER_00]: but in a different type of book. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

41:16 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how last verse case ended up being our February pick for reading a sexy, which is our romance-specific, humor-inspired book club, because I feel like that fits so perfectly. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, humor-girl's fans will love this book. [SPEAKER_00]: And part of it is because there are some authors that I feel like I reach for them when I want to just like slip into a world.

41:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like [SPEAKER_00]: Abbey hominese and B.K. [SPEAKER_00]: Borysen or just writers that like when I just want to fall into it and stay there that's who I'm reading and Julian Winters is 100% added to that list because they like you just have that you know It's like you just have that quality of writing that feels like both the setting [SPEAKER_00]: the voice, the style of writing, and the balance of the emotional depth of these characters mixed with like a hilarious cast of characters next to them, but also so funny it's just seamless that you kind of just like it's one of those things of like you realize you're reading the first couple chapters and then suddenly you're 300 pages in and you're like oh

42:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Where has the time gone? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember where I am right now like my my boy Jordan from this book he isn't a stress I have to stay here until he's okay and I feel like that's so perfectly last first kiss that like if you love those authors you will absolutely love this one but for anyone who is not yet read last first kiss can you tell us a bit about what is about your pitch for new readers if you will.

42:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, of course, last first kiss is about a man by the name of Jordan Carter. [SPEAKER_02]: He is working at his family's luxurious event-blending company as an event coordinator, and he has just been assigned the biggest wedding of his career. [SPEAKER_02]: And he just knows he's going to count up all the tips at the next step, until he finds out that the bride's man of honor.

43:09 [SPEAKER_02]: is actually Jamie Peters, his first kiss from 10 years ago and the man that recently broke his heart and so now Jordan has to navigate a summer of dress shopping and venue shopping and cake tasting with this man that has been his only male like kiss and also someone he has yet to get over and quite possibly they fall back in love with each other.

43:36 [SPEAKER_00]: quite possibly, unconfirmed by, unconfirmed by it is a real tragedy, allegedly. [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: And another reason I picked this from that pitch that you just gave is that it feels like Luke and Jordan kind of have this like curse that like the person that they love comes into their place of work and kind of ruins their life just a little bit.

44:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I'm in love with you. [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you here? [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right. [SPEAKER_02]: I love vibes like that where it's like you force these two people into a situation where they have to be around each other It can't be like you came into my life and now you get to walk back out like no, we actually have to see each other constantly And I just such a delicious thing to me.

44:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to pretend to be okay because I have to be very professional about this, though none of my feelings are professional. [SPEAKER_00]: The blurb on the front of this is from Allie Hazelwood. [SPEAKER_00]: The stuff romance dreams are made of, which could not be more true.

44:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's so many moments in this that just feel like both the biggest small and the smallest big. [SPEAKER_00]: Like where they have like there's a flash mob scene and it feels like it's about them. [SPEAKER_00]: But then there's like these details between the two of them just feel like so huge.

44:49 [SPEAKER_00]: and speaking of throughout the book you have quotes from some of like my favorite wedding themed rom-coms like my big-fat Greek wedding, which for myself that was like oh my gosh I'm done wedding planner wedding date 27 jesses, but it starts with an epigraph from James Baldwin how did you decide to marry like the wedding rom-coms with James Baldwin to kick it off?

45:12 [SPEAKER_02]: That was such an interesting, because I knew I wouldn't have a graph in there. [SPEAKER_02]: I could not decide on which one I wanted in there. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love an epigraph, like when a book starts with it, I'm like, oh, we're setting the scene. [SPEAKER_02]: We are setting the scene.

45:25 [SPEAKER_00]: The tone is there. [SPEAKER_00]: Buckle up Buttercup. [SPEAKER_00]: It's about to go down. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I think they love you. [SPEAKER_00]: It starts with my Angelou, and I was like, oh, OK. We're going someplace. [SPEAKER_03]: We are going places prepared to smile, but also hurt.

45:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, so for that to try to marry those, I just thought around, you know, more so of how these things connect is because so much of the book is about both Jordan, [SPEAKER_02]: journey towards finding the self that they want to be and breaking free of other things. [SPEAKER_02]: And doing that while finding out that they're very like madly and lovely to each other and help know how to to negotiate and navigate this.

46:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just remember reading that quote and thinking that is what it is at the end of the day. [SPEAKER_02]: It is about [SPEAKER_02]: loving who you love and nothing under having matters. [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing else really matters and I also feel like that's like the combination of like what a wedding is supposed to be.

46:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You are doing this because this is the person that you love no matter what the world thinks, so what the world views it and you're sharing it with the people that you're inviting in. [SPEAKER_02]: to this circle of love that you're sharing with this other person. [SPEAKER_02]: And nothing else should matter.

46:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how I wanted to mirror the two because at the end of the day I think people forget like everyone has their thoughts, their opinions, the world will continue to spend no matter what you do. [SPEAKER_02]: So why should anything else matter? [SPEAKER_02]: But this thing that you're sharing with this other person.

46:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's so perfect, especially because like the undertone of Giovanni's room, like finding its way until like these wedding rom-coms, I feel like kind of perfectly pun intended married these themes so well. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I loved that I loved that you did that, that was so great.

47:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Which speaking of the structure of the book, the chapter breakdowns like the chapter titles are all a wedding checklist. [SPEAKER_00]: What made you decide to do that? [SPEAKER_00]: That feels so [SPEAKER_02]: I felt very Jordan Carter and I wanted to just like, I love, I love when books have like chapter titles, it's so fun because it kind of sets you up for what you're going to experience in the chapter and I love that so much.

47:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And for this book, I just knew, okay, it's wedding theme. [SPEAKER_02]: Why not have a checklist? [SPEAKER_02]: Instead of like putting just like one checklist in the beginning or the back of the book, why not break it down chapter by chapter of how these checklist related to this journey that Jordan and Jamie, I [SPEAKER_00]: are on together and yeah, so like it's with searching for wedding checklists was just started pulling items off to fit whatever chapter I did right and it feels like it's kind of creating a little bit of attention between Jordan and the reader because you're like, oh, we're getting a lot closer to this wedding and things are not settled between you and your bow.

48:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, not at all. [SPEAKER_02]: And then just to have each one at the title chapter has a check box with a check on it and you start to realize as you go on. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so many things are checked and I don't think we've actually done. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we've checked this out.

48:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like when you make it to do listen, the first thing is like wake up. [SPEAKER_00]: Done. [SPEAKER_00]: Got it. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, I think you're taking this at the very simplest definition. [SPEAKER_02]: And we like need to dig a little deeper.

48:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I did love that. [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was such a clever way to go through that because I have I haven't mixed feeling about chapter titles Because sometimes I feel like they spoil it a little bit But I felt like this one was so like I had such a duality to it like in being a checklist But also in like the checklist of Jordan's life, which I just thought was excellent so well done This book based on the reading experience feels like it was probably a lot of fun to write is that true for you and the answer can't be no Fascinate enough [SPEAKER_02]: Um, this was actually what it's after I did have a really great time writing this book.

49:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I will fully admit that I hate drafting so much. [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of my books, if you asked me to Jeff out and I was like, no, but we got there. [SPEAKER_02]: But this book, I don't know what it was. [SPEAKER_02]: I was so nervous going into it. [SPEAKER_02]: The things that I wanted to talk about, especially when it came to Jordan's Demisexualian, things like that I was so nervous about trying to write that stuff.

49:27 [SPEAKER_02]: But then ended up having such a fun time writing about the scenes with him and Jamie, but then also the scenes with him and other characters just ended up being such a great time. [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking to what you just said, one of our book cleme members, Beth. [SPEAKER_00]: She specifically loved the journey in this book of self-discovery, especially someone Demisexual.

49:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And they asked if any of your life experiences inspired anything in the book. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Beth. [SPEAKER_02]: Part to the book, yes. [SPEAKER_02]: As someone, again, who grew up in, you know, reading queer stories or consumer queer media where it felt like every story lie had to be about the coming out and how stressful and how awful that could be.

50:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want to write a coming out story with this book. [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be more like an invitation in. [SPEAKER_02]: to Jordan's life. [SPEAKER_02]: So like a lot of that experience came from that, but also the experience of finding, you know, your people. [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that I found when I got older living in Atlanta.

50:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know, I knew who I was, but I didn't know where to find my people. [SPEAKER_02]: And so like Jordan meets so many other, you know, queer people throughout this book at different stages in their [SPEAKER_02]: figuring things out whether they know who they want to share this with.

50:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so that was a definitely a big part of my, you know, own experience of my own journey with queries. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so those are some of the things that I put in there. [SPEAKER_02]: And then also, like, I feel like, not that I'm much older, I'm much more of a Jamie, where it's like, I really don't give a shit.

50:51 [SPEAKER_02]: If you know, you know, about these parts of me, because they are just facets of me, they're not the complete me. [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I love how George Jamie, I'm sorry, is so unapologically loud. [SPEAKER_02]: about his pansexuality and just being the goofball ideas. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly who Jamie is is exactly the Jamie you get.

51:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I did love like the exploration of like their families, the sides of them, which I have a question about. [SPEAKER_00]: But before we get into that, I want to talk about Jordan and Jamie themselves because of course they came from, I think they love you. [SPEAKER_00]: What was the first memory that you have of creating Jordan and Jamie in the story?

51:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And at what point in that book were you like, oh, they are going to start in the next one. [SPEAKER_02]: Jamie was somebody who came to me immediately. [SPEAKER_02]: I love a good best friend and so for when I was right, I think they love you. [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted Den's the main character have like this really great super loyal best friend who also says the most out-of-pocket things when you're trying to be serious.

51:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So Jamie really came to me in that shape. [SPEAKER_02]: Jordan was a bit different in the original very, very, very, very, very first draft of the book. [SPEAKER_02]: He was actually a villain and I think they love you. [SPEAKER_02]: He was still Denz's cousin, but he and I think they love you.

52:07 [SPEAKER_02]: There is this CEO competition that they're having amongst the family and he was a third person in that race and he was just straight up villain like he did everything to make sure that he got claimed to the CEO position. [SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't really working in my agent's it, we need to do something with also them and I'm glad she did because then I get to move him to more of a minor role in the book but also a very important role in the book and I remember the first time where I was like oh something's happening between these two characters because I didn't plan that but there's a scene I think they love you where Dan's is trying to find a fake boyfriend and he chooses Jamie his best friend which is always like a bad mistake to think yeah

52:46 [SPEAKER_02]: that your best friend is going to be a great fake partner because then you have to get to the reality of, oh, we have to like touch hands and possibly kiss and do all these different things that we've never done. [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's just seeing where they're trying to practice holding hands, to look realistic, and it just goes all wrong, and Jordan comes into the cafe that they're at and sees us happening and just like freaks out.

53:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, but why are you freaking out? [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, there's a little something happening here and I just kept writing that into I think they love you Not thinking this was gonna be the second book is actually just like a fan thick hackening in my head was like, oh One day I'll go right.

53:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll go right their sides to worry by myself I think fan thick in your head is regular thick. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_02]: It just might be and so yeah, that's that's kind of how that happened where they their their origins of their, you know, relationship started in that but I didn't had I've been a lot more thoughtful about them being book to I promise you I would not have named them Jordan and Jamie, they're just telling you Jay's happening here.

53:49 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of jays to have Julian and Jordan and Jamie. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, we're just, it's a jay fest. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a jay fest. [SPEAKER_00]: Why not? [SPEAKER_00]: It's a jay fest. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that that was like kind of like the thread that you pulled out because, well, I can't have any more ideas for things that I'm writing, but when I was reading last first kiss, I kind of had this idea for a book because there's not to spoil anything, but one of [SPEAKER_00]: Jordan's mother's main qualities is trying to match him up with someone and there's a scene where she their work and she brings someone in and he thinks that he's being set up.

54:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, what if this girl actually was being set up and he spoke to her like this? [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what would her like? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how would she go off into her life? [SPEAKER_00]: How did she end up in this place? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: Who does she think she's ending up with?

54:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, asked to be someone else. [SPEAKER_00]: I like the universities and that to someone else because I've got too many things going on. [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of those things where I have a dedicated document in my phone just for those wild random little kernels of ideas and you'll come back to it.

54:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe, but I just love that you were writing your own book and you're like, wait, why is he upset? [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder. [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's your next book. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: And then it just happens to be that, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, was that difficult then to kind of rather than having like a fresh slate for this couple that like they are based in something that you've already written and they already have some characteristics was that difficult to kind of unwind them into their own person because it's it's from Jordan's perspective, but like we're seeing Jamie in it for who he is was that difficult to kind of transition back out of that like kind of like dance out of this book into a new one.

55:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it definitely was because, again, I didn't know this was going to be the second book. [SPEAKER_02]: What I finished, I think they love you. [SPEAKER_02]: So I had written all these other things until I think they love you. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, now we have to untangle these knots to understand where the original thread is from.

55:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So it did, it was challenging in the beginning to kind of like, okay, let's [SPEAKER_02]: figure out what the history is between these two characters, because it's not really explained it. [SPEAKER_02]: I think they love you other than that they used to be like a trio of friends, Dan Jordan, Jamie, that hung out, but we don't really know anything about Jordan and Jamie's side of it, and you know who they were.

56:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I did take a minute to kind of figure out their history, but I'm glad I had to untangle those knots because that's when I discovered who these two characters were, it was also when I discovered, I'd keep as myself a why is Jordan choosing Jamie? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is it that is making him so attracted to this person?

56:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how I discovered Jordan's demi-sexuality because I was like, it is because of this built-in friendship they've had for decades. [SPEAKER_02]: that Jordan feels his most comfortable with this man, and why no other man, no other person that he's dated has felt like what it is when he's with Jamie.

56:37 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like in the untangling process where they kind of got fully flushed out at seemed. [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that you kind of had to step back, kind of undo some things to figure out who they truly were. [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that so much. [SPEAKER_00]: In that same vein of finding out that about Jordan and like his history with Jamie, what made Jamie the best option as a love interest for Jordan?

56:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me, the best part about Jamie is, again, I can, you see it in both books. [SPEAKER_02]: He generally sees the best in people. [SPEAKER_02]: And he's also so much, he's so confident in his own skin that it allows you to be whoever you need to be around him. [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought that was like a really great quality.

57:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll see it in like a lot of the scenes where it's just Jordan and Jamie, where Jamie allows Jordan to falling drop [SPEAKER_02]: The faction is he is someone who's so worried about other people seeing his flaws, but when he's around, Jamie, all that goes away, he allows someone to see his flaws, and I thought that's what made him a really great person.

57:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I was about it just really great because again, he's such an unapologetic, pansexual person, someone who's so confident in sexuality, so confident in the journey that he's been on, that allows Jordan to see what can be, and so I think that was from now on, but I think that Jordan is good for Jamie in the sense that Jamie's like, he's such a chaos border colleague, [SPEAKER_02]: And he's very like, you know, this is my goal.

58:03 [SPEAKER_02]: This is my mission. [SPEAKER_02]: This is what I want to do. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that helps Jamie a lot to be more confident in that aspect of his life. [SPEAKER_00]: They have a good balance of like that chaos border quality, which is like such a great description of him. [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like kind of silly, but like not that Jordan's not, but like they bring out the other side of each other in the other person.

58:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's kind of like my ideal, like at least when I'm reading. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the very least. [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's, that's it. [SPEAKER_00]: We can talk about in real life some other time But like when I'm reading like especially like you're talking about fake dating because like I that's one of my favorite tropes like in I think they love you.

58:38 [SPEAKER_00]: There's just something about fake dating them like yes, but then when I get to fake dating in real life I'm like well, I would only like that because someone forced to be with me and then falling in love with me That's that seems I don't know how I feel about that. [SPEAKER_00]: No, but like always always in a book I can always love it in a book.

58:55 [SPEAKER_00]: What was your favorite scene to write between the two of them? [SPEAKER_02]: I have so many favorite scenes between Jordan and Jamie. [SPEAKER_02]: They were always the fastest to write for me because I was just having fun with them. [SPEAKER_02]: I think my favorite is probably there's a scene in bed.

59:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Not that kind of scene though. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it is a scene where there are those kind of scenes out there. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a scene before and after gets quite spicy. [SPEAKER_02]: but they're having this moment in bed where they play this game, you know, what I say, tell me something you've never told anyone, including their best friend, dense.

59:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And just that moment of them being very vulnerable where Jamie opens up about his parents and then Jordan. [SPEAKER_02]: talks about his feelings towards his biological father who's not in his life whatsoever. [SPEAKER_02]: It just felt like such a great moment that it came out so organically but also unexpectedly in the weight in the, you know, the depth so that I took it.

59:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh, I love that one. [SPEAKER_00]: I love those little games that people play in especially in books that's like, what, for example, what's something you've never told anyone? [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, but you're gonna tell me, too. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like a person you're telling.

1:00:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love it, and thank you so much. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just sharing that. [SPEAKER_03]: I know I understand you better. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like I need to tell you that I know now, too. [SPEAKER_00]: But what was the hardest scene to write between the two of them, do you think? [SPEAKER_02]: Ugh, I'm very much what people will call a cinnamon roll.

1:00:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So anything involving conflict is so hard for me because I always know I need to push it a little further. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, oh, I don't want to hurt anybody. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that hardest thing for me, Shockingly enough was the grand guest you're seeing. [SPEAKER_02]: at the end, because I was like, how do I pull out the things that I need these two men to finally say to each other and how do I get them to say it in a way that is so universally felt by a reader?

1:00:44 [SPEAKER_02]: That was a hard one. [SPEAKER_02]: From setting up where this thing was going to happen to how I was going to go about it. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so happy with the way it came out. [SPEAKER_02]: I cried while reading it when I [SPEAKER_00]: That's how you know. [SPEAKER_00]: When you got yourself, you're like, I got myself with my own writing, like, whoa, what have I done here?

1:01:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I know, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah, because I don't, I never cry at my own stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I even laugh. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, well, stuff, but those are always like the most rewarding moments. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I agree like that is such a good eye cried. [SPEAKER_00]: I cried several times.

1:01:17 [SPEAKER_00]: This was one of those ones I was like laughing. [SPEAKER_00]: I was crying. [SPEAKER_00]: I was having such a good time, but that I definitely cried at that. [SPEAKER_00]: I did think that you were going to say when you mentioned conflict when they have, I think it's the engagement party.

1:01:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: They have. [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: I forget what exactly you've felt in the wedding. [SPEAKER_00]: But that part, like I loved that. [SPEAKER_00]: That was like one of those moments when I was like, okay, who's happening, what, who's where? [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on?

1:01:40 [SPEAKER_00]: What have you done? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is not, this is gone bad. [SPEAKER_00]: This is not right, but maybe this is okay. [SPEAKER_00]: In the back of my mind. [SPEAKER_00]: But I thought that you were going to talk about that because the layered nature of that, of everything that's happening, but it's all from Jordan's perspective.

1:01:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, this was masterful. [SPEAKER_00]: This was so fun. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: I loved that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was a very challenging to write, but tying everything up at the end for me always feels tough. [SPEAKER_00]: But you're so excellent at setting a scene.

1:02:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, is there something that you do either in your wife or while you're writing to really ground yourself into a moment to transport the reader in that very specific way that you do? [SPEAKER_02]: One, if I'm writing something that I feel needs to be atmospheric in any kind of way, I have to write like in front of a window or something so I can see the world.

1:02:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, whether that's there. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a world up there at home at a coffee shop. [SPEAKER_02]: I need to like be able to see, to like slip, to see what's happening. [SPEAKER_02]: So that really helps me a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: I may be a person when it comes to music. [SPEAKER_02]: So, and I am, I am like Jordan, I'm very meticulous with my stuff, so I will actually make an overall playlist, and then I will make like a, if it's a scene, I know I have to write, that's going to be either challenging or I need to feel is it way, I'll make a playlist specifically for the scene, so I have music that, like, will put me in that mood, so those are, yeah, some of the things that I do to kind of set myself for stuff, but I mean, it's a lot of it's just like building myself up to doing something.

1:03:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: When you're talking about music, do you listen to songs with lyrics or lyrics or what's your approach for that? [SPEAKER_02]: I do listen songs with lyrics. [SPEAKER_02]: I commend everyone who can listen to like a score from a movie and just be like, yeah, I'm throwing on the Lord of the Rings soundtrack and kind of like this beautiful kissing scene.

1:03:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel nothing. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my soul is dead. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I like to listen to songs. [SPEAKER_02]: Silence in the brain. [SPEAKER_02]: So I listen to the brain. [SPEAKER_02]: I like to listen to songs with music for me. [SPEAKER_02]: It gets it just helps it to put me in the mood.

1:03:35 [SPEAKER_02]: But I will say that I find myself like hitting like, decided my earphones to pause. [SPEAKER_02]: So I can like really think about the words I'm trying to say. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not theirs. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly not theirs at all. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like sometimes when you're writing, we're playing a playlist while you're writing.

1:03:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Those five songs eventually just become like background noise and you're kind of like lost to it. [SPEAKER_00]: If you can't even hear it anymore, because like I also respect someone who can listen to a score. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I am. [SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember who I was. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was Rebecca Ross.

1:04:03 [SPEAKER_00]: She went to the interstellar. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, of course. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I was like wait for your whole book into like now when I was like read one of her books. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to listen to interstellar to like be there with her. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like am I listening to this in the right order?

1:04:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I here? [SPEAKER_00]: Is this happening? [SPEAKER_00]: But like I do have like some favorite songs that you like tend to pull to like pull at your own heart heartstrings that you like have some go to's. [SPEAKER_02]: Gosh yes there is this is a song that like you said I've listened to so many times that when I was playing I don't even hear the lyrics anymore but there's a song by milk in bone called Natalie that I put on every single one of my playlist it is just such a great song and it's funny enough I heard it for the first time on Riverdale [SPEAKER_02]: Shout out to Riverdale season one for being so good shout out to Riverdale.

1:04:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Like no one chats out Riverdale No one does. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's yeah, that's one of them. [SPEAKER_02]: I love um there's a song called Laney L.A. and why called i. L. Y. S. B. which is I love you so bad and yeah I've it so much it's on all my someone plays also um and I feel like there has to be more more [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, delicate by Taylor Swift of course because I think the meaning behind that song where it's just like I'm not in a great place in my life and we're meeting each other and like you're not going to love me That feels like I think that's in all my books.

1:05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I could see that I could see that for this one It's like you must like me for me. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he doesn't really have necessarily a bad reputation But that can mean anything in a regular person's life who's not an international pop star [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but is that very much that you you love me for me for me and that I feel like as a universal thing that I put into every book Yeah, oh, I love that.

1:05:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like finding out like if like what kind of songs people gravitate towards in that because I feel like I end up with a lot of know-a-con Because it gives me a lot of deep feelings even if I don't know it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes Yes, like it doesn't matter what's going on. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the cadence of his voice feels really deep feeling to me [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel that um it's interesting because there is an author by the name of Kate Dremis who's book the odds of you came from one of his albums like her just listening to it.

1:06:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, and you could feel it when you're reading like the death of his music. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wait what was the call? [SPEAKER_02]: It's called the odds of you. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, I'm writing that down. [SPEAKER_02]: 100% definitely check it out. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: That's perfect.

1:06:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's me and Nookhan like it's just if I want to deep feeling. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, let's put on my sad Nookhan. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, shifting gears just a little bit. [SPEAKER_00]: One of my favorite parts of this book, like I mentioned earlier is like the complexities of the different [SPEAKER_00]: family relationships because it's very different on Jordan's side versus Jamie's side, but it's also like within the book as a whole, there's so many characters, like the people that are working on the wedding, his friends, everyone that comes into it.

1:07:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And at no point does it feel like overwhelming in the sense that like you're like, wow, I have met so many people who are they and like it doesn't feel like anyone is like too shallow and just there for, you know, to have a body on the page if that's [SPEAKER_00]: how that works. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the strange phrase.

1:07:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, this is what feels so stars hollow about it is like there's this huge cast of characters, but you don't feel overwhelmed by it. [SPEAKER_00]: You just feel like they're filling out the world. [SPEAKER_00]: How did you go about managing such a cast of characters without making it overwhelming on the page?

1:07:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I've had a lot of experience now. [SPEAKER_02]: I've always been a fan of ensemble cast. [SPEAKER_02]: That is TV shows, movies, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: It's always been my thing. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I do it with every book and every book I say myself, why did you do this to yourself?

1:07:46 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to keep up with all these different people. [SPEAKER_02]: But I just, for this book, I felt like I needed to know, [SPEAKER_02]: Who each character was not only to Janey and Jordan, but also to like this world I was creating and that's I think what helped out a lot because there was probably more characters that I was just like, okay, we don't need you we don't need you [SPEAKER_02]: they got with a little time.

1:08:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Appreciate the audition. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll give you a call. [SPEAKER_02]: It just got to that point where I was like these people feel necessary. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it felt necessary because again, Jordan is on this journey.

1:08:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I felt important to show like the different people in his life and what kind of effect they can have. [SPEAKER_02]: on this preconceived notions that he already has about where he's going in life. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what made it easier. [SPEAKER_02]: And then some people were just like, they came unexpectedly, but I was like, actually, you're kind of fun to have in here.

1:08:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no. [SPEAKER_00]: I, someone starts talking to you and you're like, well, who are you? [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me your story. [SPEAKER_00]: Come on in. [SPEAKER_00]: You fit here. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Because yeah, I feel like that's just like if someone is new to romance.

1:08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this is a really good like segue from like a show like Gilmore girls because like Jordan has like his, you know, of course his issues and hangups and ultimately happy ending with Jamie. [SPEAKER_00]: but I love the way that we time in like Amy who's getting married and the way she relates to Jamie but she also has issues with her family but Jamie also has issues with his family and that all ties together but then we flash back to the wedding planning company or like the event planning company which is a great name 24 Carter Gold.

1:09:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect. [SPEAKER_00]: Which also like all of the names of like all of the restaurants and businesses around Atlanta that you created I was like every time I was like cackling or like I want to go to this fictional Atlanta. [SPEAKER_00]: It's perfect But then you like go back into his family and you get a lot of that in I think they love you, but you do such a good job of fleshing it out [SPEAKER_00]: here, but at no point do I feel like I've met too many people.

1:09:42 [SPEAKER_00]: It just feels like I'm in like you said this ensemble cast that's all centered around Jordan. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that anyone who is like stepping their toe into romance, this is like a really good place to start because he's exploring himself. [SPEAKER_00]: He's trying to figure out what he wants from his life.

1:09:59 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's right in front of his face, meanwhile there's so much more and so much depth to what's happening around him, which is true for all romances, but I feel like this one especially that it just feels so well-rounded and so perfect for someone who just wants to see if this is right for them.

1:10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Much like Jordan. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate this so much. [SPEAKER_00]: So one last question from our book club is one of our readers Justin. [SPEAKER_00]: He loved reading this one, but he wanted to ask you, and of course, because this is a romance, we know that Jordan and Jamie end up together.

1:10:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a spoiler. [SPEAKER_00]: They have a happily ever after, but Justin, another J-name, wanted to know what Jamie and Jordan's wedding might [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, that is such a good question. [SPEAKER_00]: When he asked that, it was like, wait, I have to know. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know I needed this, but now I need to know.

1:10:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I feel like someone would have to step in. [SPEAKER_02]: So Jordan wasn't hands on about it. [SPEAKER_02]: And he wasn't so like, we need to check this. [SPEAKER_02]: He would be going to be the quality of the music. [SPEAKER_02]: He would definitely 100%. [SPEAKER_02]: He would definitely [SPEAKER_02]: Try to be, I think, Jamie would be the, you know, voice of reason that would say, hey, at the end of the day, I just want to celebrate, you know, who we are to each other in front of these people who mean so much to us, so I think somehow some way Jordan would take a step back, but I feel like Den's Jones cousin and Jamie's best friend.

1:11:29 [SPEAKER_02]: would try to step in and do the whole wedding planning thing. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to go great. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to go perfectly. [SPEAKER_02]: But I did a day, I feel like that is so much Jordan and Jamie story is that they both tried to do these things perfectly and at the end of the day, life is messy.

1:11:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It's better to live in the mess than it is to try to hide it. [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think, yeah, that's what would happen. [SPEAKER_02]: Dance would take over. [SPEAKER_02]: I do think, at least know that it would probably be a wedding set in December. [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say the same.

1:12:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wait, like, we should have a Jordan Christmas novella for his wedding. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it would definitely be a December wedding. [SPEAKER_00]: If I put ideas in your head, Julien, let's go. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go. [SPEAKER_02]: I need more ideas. [SPEAKER_02]: I think, yeah, to make up for the way things ended between them.

1:12:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that would be very, very ideal. [SPEAKER_00]: My gosh, I love that we are on the same page about that. [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, let's give it a little Christmas never like that way. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's, let's cook something up. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Something a little festive up.

1:12:27 [SPEAKER_00]: The book will be very heavy because they very much enjoyed this book, which like, I'm always nervous to present something that I love because I'm like, will you, all of you people like this too, and luckily the answer was yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank goodness. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, bookloat.

1:12:40 [SPEAKER_00]: If they don't like it, they don't tell me and I'm grateful for that because it's like, I don't know how I'd handle that, but they do love this one. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very, very grateful that they did because I feel like if people like Gilmore girls, like I said, if they like Abby Haminaz or B. K. Morrison, you are the perfect next step to like their TBR and [SPEAKER_00]: especially for like February, which is the month of love.

1:13:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Back history month, they feel like tying those together and just creating this like beautiful, mishmosh of love and celebration of representation that you didn't see as a teenager all in one place. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you have not yet read last first kiss, you can find it anywhere, especially because it just became a USA today, best seller, which congratulations on that.

1:13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fantastic. [SPEAKER_00]: How did that feel? [SPEAKER_02]: So unexpected. [SPEAKER_02]: But also I was like this is your eighth book if it doesn't happen now. [SPEAKER_02]: That's fine. [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to move on with our lives keep writing books I didn't but I didn't expect it to happen at all and then when it happened.

1:13:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I legit emotion is like crying because I was like it and it felt so good not only someone's been writing for a long time, but also because it's just this like reminder that [SPEAKER_02]: people want stories that are queer with like a black male main character, like they want these things.

1:13:55 [SPEAKER_02]: They just want with a great romances. [SPEAKER_02]: And so that felt like a like a win for free. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially when that feels like so you do end up on that list. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that's so perfect. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, congratulations. [SPEAKER_00]: I have two more questions for you.

1:14:08 [SPEAKER_00]: One of them is always feels bad to ask this after you just released a book. [SPEAKER_00]: But what do you have next? [SPEAKER_00]: What can we expect next from [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so I have next a young adult, diving back into that world after these two great adult books, but a young adult contemporary speculative romance called Five My Way Down to You.

1:14:31 [SPEAKER_00]: We, I'm so excited for this one. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us more about this. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us more about this. [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh. [SPEAKER_02]: This is especially my written like any kind of like fantastical elements and tool like a full novel, but it is about a boy who is still grieving and mourning the loss of his first love two years ago and one day he [SPEAKER_02]: Accidentally, finds a way into the underworld, where he has the opportunity if he can find him to see his first love again.

1:15:00 [SPEAKER_02]: But while in the underworld, he meets the failure of souls who is a [SPEAKER_02]: The main character ends up in a situation where he has to decide is he continuing to go to the underworld to find his first love, or is he going down a dangerous path of falling in love with the fairer of souls.

1:15:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd like to pitch it as if you know Greek mythology, if Orfius went to the underworld to find your riddices and instead fell in love with Caron, the fairer man of souls. [SPEAKER_00]: which I love. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that so much because it's kind of like almost like a Headies town a little bit if you're into musicals.

1:15:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Someone called it like for your Headies town and I was like, wait, I'm done. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm dead. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm here. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm dead. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm in underworld. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're falling in love with, you know, like a psychopath or something. [SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

1:15:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, why not? [SPEAKER_00]: When does this one come out? [SPEAKER_02]: that comes out August 4th. [SPEAKER_02]: So it'll be this year. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_00]: That feels like such a good fall read. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: Underworld seems screams fall to me.

1:16:06 [SPEAKER_02]: To me, too. [SPEAKER_02]: To me, too. [SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely no fire. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It's the fire. [SPEAKER_02]: It's the leaves. [SPEAKER_02]: It's all that stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely that feeling. [SPEAKER_02]: And the book is set in fall, too.

1:16:15 [SPEAKER_02]: So it works. [SPEAKER_00]: Her face, oh my gosh, I cannot wait to read that one. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's going to be excellent. [SPEAKER_00]: But what is a book that you would recommend for Gilmore girls' lovers? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, this is so such a good question. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe I'm getting this excited.

1:16:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I have actually been reading, if it makes you happy by Julie Olivia. [SPEAKER_02]: And I, [SPEAKER_02]: Love that so much. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it very much fits like Gilmore Burroughs viewers Who love the show so much because it has that feeling of a small town. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very, you know, fall aesthetics But it also has our screams fall But it has the main character kissed such Revive me and that [SPEAKER_02]: She is someone who you're gonna fall in love with but you don't from like to get go and you question some of the things that she does and then she has This man who comes in her life was just so good and so warm and so wonderful who has his own baggage Yeah, it works at a bakery, you know, there is a dog where you could to kind of hear like the dogs thoughts in the book which is such great You know, I love the dog Yeah, it's it's amazing so

1:17:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely that one, but I also am going to throw out the odds of you by Kate Dremis because that is a great atmospheric book author celebrity romance. [SPEAKER_02]: They travel to the Isle of Sky and Scotland's. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, really, really great book. [SPEAKER_00]: We, I'm like really obsessed with like everything that I've learned about this while talking to you like that's a definitely going on my TBR.

1:17:50 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to check it out and Kate is local to Atlanta. [SPEAKER_02]: So, oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Is she okay? [SPEAKER_00]: I love I love us Atlanta Atlanta kids such a great community. [SPEAKER_00]: I know oh my gosh Well, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me and having all about your book and Gilmore girls I had like the kind of this expectation for this because I was so excited to talk to you and Lift up to every bit of it.

1:18:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Your thing is just wonderful to chat with as it is to watch you chat with someone [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, the same same I have so much fun on this and you make me feel so good about books and my love for Gilmore Gross obviously. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, this is amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: That's all I ever want to do.

1:18:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you have not yet read any of it, Julian's books go find them where you can find books, audio books are excellent too, but anyway, you decide to read them, give them a try. [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're going to love them. [SPEAKER_00]: I think they'll love you. [SPEAKER_00]: If you will.

1:18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Julian. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: My book Loving Besties, thank you so much for joining me today for another episode of Gilmour to Read. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to join the book club conversation and ask your brilliant questions to our author guests, head over to Patreon, where you can join for free.

1:19:00 [SPEAKER_00]: In March, we are reading the correspondent by Virginia Evans. [SPEAKER_00]: I hope to have her on the podcast one day, but nothing is scheduled yet. [SPEAKER_00]: So my next guest in April will be the New York Times bestselling author of the Rose bargain and the much anticipated sequel, The Thorn Queen, Miss Sasha Payton Smith, who is a big Gilmour Girls fan, and has come to join me on the podcast to talk about love triangles.

1:19:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be such a fun one, you don't want to miss it, but until then, happy reading friends.