Zack & Lane/Lane & Dave with Maya & Hunter

0:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Five, six, seven, eight, Zach. [SPEAKER_04]: Zach. [SPEAKER_04]: Zach. [SPEAKER_04]: Zach. [SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm excited to talk about Eric. [SPEAKER_04]: Here we go. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, everybody. [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back to Gilmour to say with Tara and Haley. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Tara. [SPEAKER_04]: This is Haley.

0:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, Haley. [SPEAKER_06]: Tara you included me that time last week. [SPEAKER_06]: I did the last week. [SPEAKER_06]: I did. [SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was really fun like. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, hi. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, Brian. [SPEAKER_06]: It was like, oh, just keep your eye to toes a little bit.

0:41 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: I hadn't forgotten the intro in quite some time, so you just had to end a mess. [SPEAKER_06]: I really didn't love it. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, just threw off a bit of it. [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, we have my own Hunter on the podcast today, which we're so excited about. [SPEAKER_04]: We love when they come on the podcast and we're exploring why a lean-in-zax relationship was so, so, so ill received from the fan, like by the fandom of Gilmour Girls.

1:02 [SPEAKER_06]: It'll receive or just like you kind of didn't care. [SPEAKER_06]: But just get what you want for a couple. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Like you don't want to hate them or if you're in different, you want to like be rooting for them and you just. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: As you can define in this episode, can we?

1:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Can we? [SPEAKER_04]: And you know, besides the obvious, I think that we did touch on some obvious points with my unhunter take, because it's also like he can't avoid them. [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes with conversations like this, it's just like, well, yeah, because of the obvious, like, it's, yeah, he's kind of a, yeah, he's a, but I tried to bring some points to the table that I felt were like, okay, like, this did happen.

1:35 [SPEAKER_04]: What was more overcoming from the writer's intentions? [SPEAKER_04]: Why did they pick him? [SPEAKER_04]: Was there a better alternative besides just bringing Dave or Galski back? [SPEAKER_04]: You know, was that the peak for lane? [SPEAKER_04]: Could they have introduced someone else? [SPEAKER_04]: We explore it.

1:47 [SPEAKER_04]: We explore it all. [SPEAKER_04]: We touch on it all here. [SPEAKER_04]: But we also want to take you guys through your responses because you guys did offer some feedback when Haley was so Instagram story. [SPEAKER_06]: I love posting a question box and the responses. [SPEAKER_06]: Like you guys are funny.

2:00 [SPEAKER_06]: You did not hold back. [SPEAKER_06]: Like very funny. [SPEAKER_06]: I am giggling laughing. [SPEAKER_05]: We also have very useful to say. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, no doubt. [SPEAKER_05]: No doubt. [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that we had to bring my enthunter on to talk about this, which, like, already at a loss.

2:14 [SPEAKER_06]: Because if you guys don't know my enthunter, they've been on the podcast twice before. [SPEAKER_06]: They kind of did, we kind of did with my enthunter, what we did with Brett. [SPEAKER_06]: We're like, he got, hunter got through his first watch at some point, and then we had an episode.

2:26 [SPEAKER_06]: Once he finished, he came back, and now he's back to give some true insight after a couple of rewatches. [SPEAKER_06]: they make social contents like on their Instagram TikTok, etc. [SPEAKER_06]: YouTube about relationships and like really healthy relationships because they have one and so bringing them in to talk about Zach.

2:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Zach's already at a loss because we're talking to a couple that is like the epitome of a really like you said healthy really endearing relationship. [SPEAKER_04]: Hunter talks a lot about how like Maya is his Dave and he. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: He's so. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so it's oh my god it melts my heart.

3:03 [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, they're already coming in at the loss, but also Zack didn't help himself He didn't help himself, you know like it's not their fault that they have really high standards for a healthy relationship that as they should Don't live up to and it's not their fault that they are right or die for Dave So I know we knew true the writers really endured us today even didn't quite in dearest to Zack not as what we're here to talk a little bit about today so [SPEAKER_04]: Let's bring him in.

3:29 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk to my unhunter. [SPEAKER_04]: My unhunter welcomed back to Gilmore to say. [SPEAKER_04]: We're so happy to have you guys here. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for so happy to be here. [SPEAKER_00]: So excited. [SPEAKER_04]: Love, love, love, love. [SPEAKER_04]: Having you on the podcast.

3:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Tell me, since we've last had you on, which I think was early 2024, is that right? [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's why you guys have gone through the series again. [SPEAKER_04]: Are you guys still in the midst of another rewatch? [SPEAKER_04]: Where are you at with Gilmore girls? [SPEAKER_02]: I am eternally in series lately because I will always listen to it while I fall asleep.

3:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, what I get through this eternal rewatch I'm in is like kind of hit or miss because like I do fall asleep and then I miss a whole part of it. [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm kind of in a weird loop right now, but you have officially watched it three times. [SPEAKER_00]: I was officially watching the three times we are in the middle of our third relaunch fourth holder watch we restart every fall So around September I think September first is like our novel You know, we start and so it's been a slower one.

4:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I think at each iteration of the rewatch we kind of just pop it on when dinners being made or whatever so we [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of taking a nap, taking a nap even, you know, like, I'm going into kind of my as eternal rewatch as well. [SPEAKER_00]: But we are mid season three right now. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.

4:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, so the topic of conversation hasn't even bloomed yet. [SPEAKER_00]: And we are just reintroduced to Dave or Gowski. [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I was gonna say you guys are in like peak, Dave or Gowski mode. [SPEAKER_04]: So, that's gonna make today's conversation even more interesting.

5:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Because we just finished, we're like, we're doing our second rewatch on Patreon and we're just wrapping up season five. [SPEAKER_04]: So we just kind of saw the courtship if you even want to call it that between Zach and Lane and we're moving into like the me and potatoes of their relationship.

5:17 [SPEAKER_04]: But Brett and I, Brett just finished the original series for the first time and so he got to like see the me and Mary. [SPEAKER_06]: It's actually the episode before this one. [SPEAKER_06]: We did it right and now we're here with two experts. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So we moved through it a little slowly.

5:32 [SPEAKER_04]: He's going to watch the revival. [SPEAKER_04]: Do you guys include the revival in your rewatch? [SPEAKER_04]: Always or do you just do the original series? [SPEAKER_01]: We always go to just watch the original, but maybe we said now since we we didn't the second time. [SPEAKER_00]: We're just always itching for the early 2000s grainy vibes by the time fall rolls around and like so we've barely even finished the last one and we're like got to get back [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

5:54 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Totally like that. [SPEAKER_06]: It's like you've got the gist of it. [SPEAKER_06]: You know where the skulls. [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get back to what we love, what we like. [SPEAKER_04]: Is there anything that you guys in your rewatch? [SPEAKER_04]: Any of your rewatches that you feel, especially Hunter, having kind of been introduced to the show via Maya, feel like you caught that you didn't catch the first time where there's certain things that you were like, oh my god, I didn't even notice that the first time or I didn't really think about that the first time your opinion changed on something, anything in those lines.

6:20 [SPEAKER_00]: mostly just the excellence of the writing. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the one liners, I what we will pause and laugh hysterically out. [SPEAKER_00]: It just, there's moments where Emily says something or even, you know, uh, of course, Laura Lys says something or even Rory says something and I go, holy cow, that is so funny.

6:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And you just kind of have to appreciate it. [SPEAKER_02]: We laughed at a lot this time was actually I just remembered when Laura Lys I think she ends up doing it twice, but she goes to loops and he's like, sit wherever and she's like, can you get up to that one guy? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Laura likes some of the best execution of those lines where she just uses her quick wit.

6:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So flawlessly and you just have to appreciate the performance of it. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously Emily is stellar back to back one lineers all the time. [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think those, I don't really have too many opinion changes that I've noticed, but mostly just appreciation deepening.

7:09 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I feel that too even like as many times as I've watched it as we're watching on Patreon. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just laughing at the same lines that I've heard a hundred times, but just like, they like kill me every single time. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, no matter how many times I hear these lines, I love them as if I'm hearing them for the first time.

7:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And so real, like, also we were talking about this and we were like, when we show this to like, our kids one day, they're going to be like, like, it's going to be as if we watched a show from what do we say, like the 70s? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Or was it the 50s? [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's the 70's yeah.

7:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, no, it's the 70's. [SPEAKER_02]: Where are we? [SPEAKER_02]: It's 20 26. [SPEAKER_02]: Isn't like 10 years that we were showing. [SPEAKER_02]: It would be like the 70's for us. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: But like isn't that kind of rokes? [UNKNOWN]: Yes.

7:53 [SPEAKER_06]: It's like time growing is so weird. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, when I think about watching like three's company with like on TV land with my parents And like all this was so old and the thought of Gilmore girls being so old. [SPEAKER_06]: This is like We're gonna have to explain to them what a pageer it is and like why like what was going on like why they're phones flip open like that's everything [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually what the seed is about because it's like in the past two or three decades we had so much development.

8:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So like this isn't that long ago, but we had pagers. [SPEAKER_00]: And now we had no, we have crazy instant text, all the stuff that we have. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just so funny that we'll be able to like, we'll have to explain how quickly things moved. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

8:39 [SPEAKER_06]: We were talking to like there's a event that we go to every fall the shop owner there She was explaining to her daughter what a CD was and I was like whoa, no, whoa This is crazy. [SPEAKER_06]: We've evolved to a CD. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_00]: So there's gonna be a lot of a lot of teaching about someone's like a period What you're gonna be I just placed like three vinyl orders yesterday So we're still kind of like, well, you know, it's all I'm a flow.

9:04 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: They're gonna know what a final is but not a CD Exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: No, they'll definitely know what a vinyl is. [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's either gonna be like it's smaller and I'm like you're not wrong. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah That's the line of right [SPEAKER_04]: But at the last time that we had you here, I mean, one of the topics that we've talked about a lot and a shirt that I know you'd love to wear is that it should have been David Gowski.

9:22 [SPEAKER_04]: He talks a lot about Lane Kim's storyline and how she should have ended up with David Gowski and she was instead handed Zack and I feel like that is something that in the fandom is so divisive. [SPEAKER_04]: I actually don't want to say divisive. [SPEAKER_04]: No one's really divided on it.

9:35 [SPEAKER_06]: I think we're all pretty united on the fact that like no, he was kind of Oh, well, maybe not maybe not but I asked I asked our besties to ask why Dave not Dave. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry Zach sucked or why he was a great fit and I have some interesting thoughts from the best days about that I'm very interested to hear because the question that we're really posing today is why Lane and Zach's relationship [SPEAKER_04]: I felt like especially upon rewatching Dave or Galski was just like the apex of what she was offered and then Once he was no longer able to be a part of the show Adam Brodie not Dave himself ended up being Dave himself But like Adam Brodie couldn't do it anymore, so they were like all right, who's there this guy?

10:21 [SPEAKER_04]: And then that's what they decided to go with and I'm still I have so many questions for the writers and I I also think like we can kind of chat about it today because we've never really [SPEAKER_04]: Taking a deep dive into lane in Zach's relationship, we've talked about lane on this podcast, we've talked with you guys about like, it should have been David Gowski.

10:37 [SPEAKER_04]: But why did the writers offer this up to us and why did the audience receive it so poorly is kind of what we're trying to mind today? [SPEAKER_04]: So Haley posed the question to our besties. [SPEAKER_04]: Lay it on us. [SPEAKER_06]: What did they have to say? [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, so I did two polls and two question boxes, which I love to do on our Instagram, just to see how everyone is feeling about this.

11:00 [SPEAKER_06]: And this one was pretty divided in its level of sentiment, I would say. [SPEAKER_06]: Because the question is, I asked, was how do you feel about leaning back together? [SPEAKER_06]: 36% said, oh, do not like, 6% said love them. [SPEAKER_06]: 40% said they're fine, I guess. [SPEAKER_06]: 18% said hate isn't strong enough word.

11:18 [SPEAKER_06]: So 54% dislike them to some level. [SPEAKER_06]: 40% seem to not really care if that much they're fine. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And only 6% liked them. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, which yeah, that's what I like that made that's that feels right the second one I asked is do you think Zack was a good fit for Lane as a love interest Sosh partner nine percent said yes.

11:40 [SPEAKER_06]: They were a good fit 91 percent said no he was just nearby Yeah, yeah, so if it feels like that's that's reflective of how we all feel here [SPEAKER_04]: I guess it's less about it being divisive on whether or not they were good for each other because it seems like people are pretty much like anybody who's in the camp of like, yeah, they were great.

12:02 [SPEAKER_04]: They ruled together. [SPEAKER_04]: We love them. [SPEAKER_04]: The percentages. [SPEAKER_04]: Very small. [SPEAKER_04]: It's more about the fact that like I feel like Lane and Zack's relationship almost made the audience like in different towards Lane. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Like they really assassinated Lane with with with with.

12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: And every single time, as I mentioned, like Brett and I just watched the show and from the very beginning, Brett was like, the writer's hate lane. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, I don't know if the writer's realized that that is kind of how the audience felt about the story they were giving her.

12:35 [SPEAKER_04]: But until David Gowski was introduced like introduced into the story, we were like, oh, oh my god, so fun, so sweet. [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure I think that that was the direction they wanted to [SPEAKER_07]: Sure. [SPEAKER_06]: Which speaking of Adam Brody though, Adam Brody recently came back saying about Debra Gowski that he wasn't so sure about him because he thought that all of what he was doing was could have been perceived as love bombing.

13:02 [SPEAKER_00]: You got Austin the O.C. [SPEAKER_00]: He's isn't on the he doesn't remember properly. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he doesn't. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I understand that there's like a romanticization, perhaps of Debra Gowski from who he was and like his early, like his early days of lane, but like I, I don't know.

13:17 [SPEAKER_04]: I think they were. [SPEAKER_00]: The concept of love bombing is subjective, though, because if you love bombs to someone who doesn't want to receive it, that's love bombing and it's, you know, potentially, you know, not the right fit. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you love bombs someone who's receiving it well, that's just like romantic gesture.

13:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, especially if you don't, if you don't immediately stop the bombing and run away, I think it's like you can't, you know, continuously love bomb. [SPEAKER_06]: You can't just exist in a love bomb. [SPEAKER_06]: But it's more of the fact that like it has an intention to end. [SPEAKER_06]: Like it's like it's worth, we're like there's no real means to an end here.

13:52 [SPEAKER_06]: It's just like we're just trying to like get something from you. [SPEAKER_06]: But like you don't read the Bible in one night, but it's not love bombing. [SPEAKER_06]: No, that's all. [SPEAKER_00]: You've seen a bunch of text just over and over again. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:07 [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly, exactly. [SPEAKER_06]: So I think he was wrong. [SPEAKER_06]: I think we cannot, yeah, we want to have them on and have him answer first crimes. [SPEAKER_04]: And be like, I need you to watch this. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Really watch this and tell me that that boy was not in love with her.

14:21 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Time to chair. [SPEAKER_04]: We're all going to gang up on Adam Brodie is really the main takeaway of this. [SPEAKER_04]: Start that rumor. [SPEAKER_04]: Start that rumor. [SPEAKER_04]: Start that rumor. [SPEAKER_04]: But today, I kind of wanted to go through Lane and Zach's relationship the same way that we did when we talked about Dave, because what we did when we talked about Dave Hailing, and I even before we ended up talking to you guys, is we literally just watched Dave for Galski and just his scenes with, especially with Lane, and how his character was kind of perceived without any of the outside noise.

14:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Because I do think that that is, of course, we're not meant to care about Lane as much as we are meant to care about the Gilmore Girls, the show is called Gilmore Girls. [SPEAKER_04]: But, I do think that the comparison of the relationships that we see, Lorelie and Bury and other people even Emily and Richard go through, especially when you're going to offer us a relationship like Lane and Zack's, that's going to make us not care, because you're not giving us anything to care about, but with Dave, it was almost like this interest that was kind of peaked.

15:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And I was wondering if isolating the scenes the same way that we did with Dave would make me feel at least a little similar about Zack. [SPEAKER_04]: And it did like maybe one Iota, but... Oh. [SPEAKER_04]: still not so much like isolating them without all of the outside noise made me go like okay I would maybe watch this movie maybe what I wrote for me.

15:36 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah a little bit. [SPEAKER_06]: I wrote the opposite. [SPEAKER_06]: You did. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was because when you watch them like I never recommend watching the show just watching the vaccines under any circumstances that's the [SPEAKER_02]: that it's like there are series of scenes that like don't always like have like a true through line other than they're together yeah there's no why to them that's yeah that's I think what I would take from what I what you know obviously not watching in a row but like watching it in general like it just kind of seems like the definition of like well they were just they are next to each other so they stayed together and that's it

16:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's an overarching theme with Dave that's really, sorry, I'm just going to be hard, I keep it. [SPEAKER_00]: By the authority of Honoring Dave, but I get it. [SPEAKER_00]: That's so frustrating. [SPEAKER_00]: I think what helps me highlight it is I'm thinking back to you guys had a writer at your live podcast episode.

16:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Sheila, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: and she was really insightful in providing the difference in how TV writing took place back then during this time period for just how it takes place now with you have these major production 10 episode usually 13 max episodes shows where the arc is very planned and coordinated versus these network TV shows that are 25 episodes of season and are kind of flying by the sea of their pants to see if they [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that Zach is the perfect example of just like a compounding of like making do with what's in front of them and not actually planning for the future.

17:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So they set Lane up with such a beautiful story line with someone like Dave coming in and record on court rescuing or, you know, being a, a saving figure from the home she's in. [SPEAKER_00]: And then that goes away because of practical reasons and they go, well, what else is there? [SPEAKER_00]: Zach.

17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they go, well, what's Zach like? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's kind of a, [SPEAKER_00]: dofus in the band. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make an act like a dofus in the band. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like they didn't really ever plan any sort of arc there. [SPEAKER_00]: It was just like, what's there?

17:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder, like, could they have changed his character? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, would that have been odd if he got with her? [SPEAKER_02]: And then he was like, really, you know, responsive and trying and like, you know, a different kind of got like, would that have worked or would everyone have been like, what happened to that guy?

18:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, I'm curious. [SPEAKER_04]: No, that's so fair because I do think that that's what they tried to do with him in season seven and we take that with a grain of salt because obviously it was not Amy's version of the show. [SPEAKER_04]: But in season seven, having just binged it with bread, I realized that like they do kind of endure us to Zach a little bit more than they do with their seasons because you know now they're married then they're having twins and [SPEAKER_04]: you're just kind of like he's he's funnier, he's kind of lighter, he's not as like you said dophycy, he's just kind of like her husband and to that end I'm like yeah okay I guess I'm kind of on board with this but it it does feel a little bit like alternate universal in a way not like too far though and if they had taken it too far what I've been like

18:48 [SPEAKER_04]: What are we watching? [SPEAKER_04]: I was already like what are we watching? [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_04]: So I totally agree with you that it's like could they have changed him too much would the audience have liked that? [SPEAKER_04]: I want to say I would have in in some degrees because it's like you want the best for Lane.

19:03 [SPEAKER_04]: You want the best for this character that you're ruining for, but also like this guy is who he is. [SPEAKER_04]: How much can he possibly change? [SPEAKER_06]: I know there is like this like of course because I read a lot of romance novels that like it's giving like man written by a woman vibes of like he seems to be like very lazy he's kind of a dufist kind of like seems like a womanizer but like finds the girl that he's meant to be with and he wants to fight for and suddenly he's like very intentional suddenly like is very respectful of like this one person and [SPEAKER_06]: So like I think had that happened like because it's not until the beginning of season five that like we even like see that Lane is even vaguely interested in this guy.

19:44 [SPEAKER_06]: I think had like that been built up a little bit more. [SPEAKER_06]: I would have totally believed if they had started dating and Zach like randomly had like tons of like intentionality in respect for this one person he wanted to be in his life. [SPEAKER_06]: But that's not what happened.

19:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And I always wondered how much am I one thing Zach in would just the fact that she like got pregnant and like like her line where she Sussan's yeah, like where her line where she literally says like I just like got out of prison basically and now I'm like like that was like So we literally are we're in anguish over that every time we hear it [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, when I rewatch that with Brett like a week ago, it that really hit me especially knowing we were doing this episode that she was like, I just got my freedom like I just got it and now I am back in like you said prison again and it's like I hate that that's the way she thinks about her life and [SPEAKER_04]: and getting pregnant, it shouldn't feel that way, and the fact that it does feel that way, not only bex a question of like, you know, you feel for Lane on that level of, you know, she had sex for the first time.

20:50 [SPEAKER_04]: She gets pregnant immediately, it's with twins. [SPEAKER_04]: Again, I'm like the writer's hate, Lane, but... [SPEAKER_04]: But it's also more over that, like, if it's with the right person, [SPEAKER_04]: it doesn't, it shouldn't feel like that. [SPEAKER_04]: It shouldn't feel like prison.

21:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that like Zack's characteristics kind of lend to that. [SPEAKER_06]: In addition to the fact that at the end of the series, are you saying that Zack's characteristics lead towards feeling like prison? [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I just wanted to clarify for the listener.

21:21 [SPEAKER_06]: The listener being made. [SPEAKER_04]: Like if you're with the right partner, it doesn't feel like such a heavy lift, such a burden. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that with the same extreme inconveniences and curveballs are fun or a new challenge to take on. [SPEAKER_00]: And when you're with the right person, you're, yeah, in the moment, it can be challenging, you know, an unexpected pregnancy or some sort of life altering career change or whatever.

21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: you roll with that because you're happy to be with the person. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not how she felt. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe you like, I don't know, I even think about like him going off on tour and like her stank bag and it's like, it's like, I don't know if she had known that like, oh, maybe we'll take turns, maybe there are times where I know and times where you like, but I like, that's always in what happened.

22:05 [SPEAKER_02]: But [SPEAKER_04]: Totally. [SPEAKER_04]: Totally. [SPEAKER_04]: So we've, we're kind of in the season seven of it all, really analyzing how like that part of it I do think really gets to the audience on like, oh really this is like how they're going to end lane, but let's go back to the beginning because I do think part of the reason why people can't get on board like Haley was saying is that the courtship between lane and Zach is non-existent.

22:28 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no courtship. [SPEAKER_04]: And we got to see that with Dave. [SPEAKER_04]: I Dave was introduced as a love interest. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that that goes back to your point. [SPEAKER_04]: Hunter that like they brought him in to be a love interest. [SPEAKER_04]: They introduced this idea of this character so that Lane Kim could have a love interest whereas Zach was introduced as kind of like being on the outskirts of that.

22:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll even say like being a duo with Brian and and like he and Zach was just kind of this really fun hilarious like comedic relief outside of this love interest like this boss being little romance school romance and that's kind of how we prefer him. [SPEAKER_06]: where he knows like way too much about Brian citric acid intake and like adhesion doesn't it oranges does it not feel like that's like a much better partnership than lean and Zach ever presented as it's like you know that you should need oranges like your citric acid take is too high today.

23:22 [SPEAKER_06]: It's like that seems like something that like a really like healthy communicative couple. [SPEAKER_00]: He's a bromance director. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not a bromance director, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god. [SPEAKER_04]: Put that on a t-shirt. [SPEAKER_04]: He's a bromance character, not a romance character.

23:36 [SPEAKER_04]: And that is how they built him. [SPEAKER_04]: And so by the time it came to like the quote unquote courtship of Lane and Zach, after giving us someone like Dave or Galski and giving us that relationship, as we do with even worries, boyfriends, lower-rise boyfriends, we're going to compare them.

23:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Do Dave. [SPEAKER_04]: And all we know about Zach leading up to this point is like, he plays guitar. [SPEAKER_04]: He hits on Lorelei, that also doesn't scream. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, yeah, let's put him with Lane. [SPEAKER_04]: Um, like, he's like, he's kind of an asshole towards Gill, like he's very self-centered.

24:11 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's really all we know about Zach, is that like, he's self-centered. [SPEAKER_04]: And he knows a lot about Brian's citric acid intake. [SPEAKER_04]: And so, by the time they're like, okay, let's introduce this idea. [SPEAKER_04]: it doesn't come from Zach, it comes from Lane and it kind of pops up out of nowhere.

24:26 [SPEAKER_04]: It's in season five episode two, Lane is working at Luke's Zach, you know, is there with a couple of girls and she just starts kind of like picking a fight with him so much so that they end up leaving and one of the girls comes back and is like, hey, sorry, we didn't know, which is kind of girl's girl of her to be like, hey, we had no idea, I'm sorry, we wouldn't have come in here if we had known and she's like, known what?

24:47 [SPEAKER_04]: And I kind of like, like, there's a part of me where I don't mind this introduction that it's kind of like a love sneaks up on you. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, oh, it wasn't until someone pointed out my feelings that I realized I had feelings. [SPEAKER_04]: But we needed more than just that one episode in order for us to like, get her.

25:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just, I think that that reflects the poor fit of the subject of that, that intro is strong, that's what is strong, but then when you when you tie it to Zack, it's like, I have a question that I've kind of been formulating, what do we think about if they kept that true, but put it with Brian.

25:23 [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people, a lot of people, recommend that. [SPEAKER_04]: They're like, okay, you had two choices and you chose Zack and I think it's like that. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if people would have been like, yeah, hell yeah, you know, he's nerdy and he's sweet Yeah, you'll like the writers picked Zack because he wasn't like he was the antithesis.

25:43 [SPEAKER_04]: They were like, let's go to something different. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I didn't land [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe some of my Brian would be too like he's so good with his with her family or and like the Korean culture stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Like maybe that wouldn't be enough of a separation from like because Lane ultimately what she needed was separation from home.

25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Which what does she ever really get that? [SPEAKER_00]: Not really. [SPEAKER_00]: No. [SPEAKER_00]: But maybe Brian would have been to homogenous with yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: I had a willing to like keep her in I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: The only reason I say yes Brian though is because like Brian was the one who wrote the song for her.

26:14 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I was thinking about. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like he was so sweet in that episode. [SPEAKER_04]: Like yeah, no, he's very, very sweet. [SPEAKER_04]: In and of itself, like Brian's characteristics, I think, led more to what the audience wanted, like the softness of David Gowski.

26:27 [SPEAKER_04]: He loves music. [SPEAKER_04]: He's kind of a nerd. [SPEAKER_04]: He's there for her. [SPEAKER_04]: I really think, and again, I'm putting like words in the writer's mouths, I think they just wanted something different. [SPEAKER_04]: They were like, this feels more interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Brian.

26:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And I get it. [SPEAKER_04]: I just don't think they stuck the landing like I think they could have gotten in this direction if like my I use suggested maybe he like changed his tendencies a little bit, but it's just the fact that they didn't even give us time to acclimate to this idea to like switch it around in our mouths a little bit like okay lane like Zach that's [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and like we don't get much more after that.

27:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Like Lane sits down with worry and you know talks her about it and it's like do I like a first of all she kind of jumps the gun And she's like am I in love with Zach and I was like whoa, whoa, that's some Girl real it in, but that's in typical Lane Kim fashion. [SPEAKER_04]: She loves to just be like I'm in love [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, all right, but then she reveals her feelings to him two episodes later.

27:26 [SPEAKER_04]: It's when they're at the Town Selectman Rally and like she's also kind of picking fights with him about him buying beer him because they're living together. [SPEAKER_04]: That also makes this kind of juicy. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like they're setting us up for like, oh, this is a little This is a little messy like Lane is not only in love quote unquote with her bandmate.

27:44 [SPEAKER_04]: It's also her roommate [SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, oh, okay, like this is kind of interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: And she blurt's out her feelings while he once again has two girls. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know why there's always two girls, but there's always two. [SPEAKER_04]: There's always two of them.

27:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Is he's a planner band? [SPEAKER_00]: He's his manager. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But I find it actually very brave of Lean. [SPEAKER_06]: Like that was a very brave moment to look at him and say exactly how she felt. [SPEAKER_00]: Lane is great. [SPEAKER_00]: Lane is courageous.

28:09 [SPEAKER_00]: She grows, she grew up in under the guard of a prison ward. [SPEAKER_00]: She has to fight for what she wants and, you know, she had to put herself out there. [SPEAKER_04]: But as soon as she puts herself out there, his response is like, she kind of drops the bomb and runs. [SPEAKER_04]: She doesn't give him time to respond.

28:25 [SPEAKER_04]: She's like, here's your bear. [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure it's actually, you know what, but she's still like, I was going to say she's in the other room in the other room. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, we're just gonna go up the break moment and then run away. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's just like it is kind of lanes of Oh, we're gonna build rich bloom and felled and then he kind of takes a moment things about it But then they still have to live together and you don't realize until like an episode or two later That they haven't talked about it and she's so hopeful and he's so like [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm good.

29:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I went to the dentist. [SPEAKER_04]: I brushed too much and she's like, okay, and then she takes it back. [SPEAKER_04]: Like later in the episode, you're kind of like going through the motions. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's actually one of the first times that you see them maybe perhaps acting like a couple, she's doing her makeup in this mirror.

29:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And he's like shaving behind her. [SPEAKER_04]: He's like doing his thing. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, Oh, actually, I kind of, [SPEAKER_04]: I see it a little bit, like you're kind of dropping the hints of like, oh, this is how two people who were dating would get ready in the morning and they're kind of cute.

29:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And then she's like, I take it back. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't feel that way. [SPEAKER_04]: It was a moment momentary lapse in judgment. [SPEAKER_04]: And a part of me wishes that she had kind of stuck to that. [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, then is like, okay, he comes to the diner and says to her like, I need to be honest with you.

29:46 [SPEAKER_04]: You know me better than almost anybody. [SPEAKER_04]: and it takes me a long time to process things. [SPEAKER_04]: So, automatically, he's kind of blaming her, which I don't really like. [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, you know it takes me a long time to process things. [SPEAKER_06]: I was gonna say, you're making him seem very reasonable, because he shows up at her place of work after she said, I don't want this anymore and says, I'm ready now.

30:07 [SPEAKER_04]: This is before, this is before he says I'm ready now, but it's at her place of work. [SPEAKER_04]: He ambushes her at work and he's like, all right, listen, like, we need to talk. [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, he says he starts an out by going, I have something to say. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, yeah, yeah, he does.

30:22 [SPEAKER_04]: And he basically is like, you know me like better than anybody and you know it takes me a while to like deal with things he then goes on to say something that like kind of gave me the I mean everything about Zach gives me the egg, but gave me the egg about the situation is he said this issue between you and me is going to take a minute to figure out I was like issue issue huh, that's what I want to call all my relationships.

30:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Then he goes on to say, which I think encapsulates the beginning, middle, and end of their relationship so beautifully, he says, I hope you weren't expecting an officer in a gentleman kind of thing when I came in just now. [SPEAKER_04]: And she says, I was not expecting that. [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, okay, well, you just told us exactly what it was gonna be.

31:01 [SPEAKER_04]: It is not gonna be a romance, it is not gonna be a rom-com, this is not gonna be a situation or a relationship where Zach comes in and sweeps her off her feet. [SPEAKER_04]: And she's not expecting that either. [SPEAKER_04]: And it wasn't until I really zeroed in on that line that I was like, oh, Zach is not that guy.

31:16 [SPEAKER_04]: And that is what we're setting Lane Kim up for for the rest of the series. [SPEAKER_06]: But he doesn't even want to be that guy. [SPEAKER_06]: He's telling her ahead of time that like your expectations [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and like, part of these thinking right now, I'm like, how kind of true to life is that that like a lot of people do like do that, you know, they just go like whatever, like it's cute that he doesn't try, you know, there's like girls who are kind of just like, oh yeah, he doesn't do anything and it's totally fine like, I don't care at all, but like Lane is not that girl like we've never seen her be like, um, that girl.

31:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just an odd like thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think by Lisa, we're part about that interaction though, it's the last time that they talked. [SPEAKER_06]: She said, I don't like you anymore. [SPEAKER_06]: I take him back and then he he acts like that didn't happen Like there's no communication.

32:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's no communication and it also establishes that the relationship is on X terms and Yeah, yeah, of course Ah, yes And and [SPEAKER_06]: my take a moment. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm struggling to have like anything but just raw frustration as this, because I only think I've ever really thought much deeper into that, the crux of that beginning and how much subliminal messaging there was to what he said.

32:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Artemie wanted to like give him credit for being self-aware, but then I was like, no, that's kind of bare minimum, like you're still a bit, you're still kind of, [SPEAKER_06]: Well, worries 20. [SPEAKER_06]: She turns 21 in season 6, so I would say lanes probably about that age and maybe he's a little bit older.

32:52 [SPEAKER_06]: I always assumed they were a little bit older. [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, you are dealing with like clearly an emotionally immature guy who's maybe 20, 21 years old. [SPEAKER_04]: And so, like, in that regard, I want to cut him some slack, too. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, you've got a lot of life to live and learn.

33:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I was not very emotionally mature when I was that age. [SPEAKER_04]: And the guys I was dating, the guy I was dating at the time, certainly wasn't either. [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like, I want to give them, I want to give him those flowers, not flowers, but just I want to give him that slack.

33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't. [SPEAKER_00]: No, but we don't. [SPEAKER_00]: And like Lane's, Lane's immature too, in the sense of like when she's lashing out at him at the, at Luke's, when he's got the girls there, and she doesn't really know why she's doing that. [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's immature, but it's like, okay, like who cares?

33:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's like, if she likes him, and then this is like in ignorance and and uh, for on Zach's part, just a level of doofus net. [SPEAKER_00]: He's just such a doofus. [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't want that for Lane. [SPEAKER_00]: We want a guy who's gonna stand up. [SPEAKER_00]: Who's gonna stand up?

33:56 [SPEAKER_04]: totally agree and he kind of tells us from the beginning like I'm not that guy and she seems to just accept it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah she does and I'm okay even with this intro if again if it develops from there but that's interesting to either story for three more seasons. [SPEAKER_06]: I actually think it would have been quite interesting if he would have presented himself like this is not going to be like that.

34:19 [SPEAKER_06]: And like like you've said under and then like his self-awareness was interesting. [SPEAKER_06]: And if that would have led to development to growth, if maybe he would have been contradicting himself. [SPEAKER_06]: Like if the things that he was saying, but things he was doing was a lot better, I would have been very interested in that.

34:36 [SPEAKER_06]: Because like as I was preparing for this, I had to think about the fact that it was like lean as a secondary character. [SPEAKER_06]: like the way that like the structure of each of these scenes played back to back is giving such secondary character vibes. [SPEAKER_06]: But like you could have used some of that time to really develop this relationship here because it goes from I like you actually I don't actually I do want to date you we're dating and now we're together until we're married and well there's a little break in there which we've used about.

35:02 [SPEAKER_02]: and stuff to kids and I just want something more and maybe like I don't know when you said the thing about him saying like you know I'm not this guy but then maybe he could have like kind of contradicted that like I feel like they did that with Logan like they kind of it's just about to say that yeah like I'm I'm not a girlfriend guy like I can't do it and then she comes back and is like okay no yeah let's not do it and he's like no actually like no I can like and then [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that was actually going to be a question from us to you guys.

35:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Is like, do you feel like the writer's intended for Lane to be Zach's exception to the role? [SPEAKER_04]: Because we see him as kind of this like playboy. [SPEAKER_04]: He's, he's girls and then like, she presents this idea of like, I feelings for you and he doesn't necessarily reject it.

35:51 [SPEAKER_04]: He kind of sits on it for a while. [SPEAKER_04]: until coming to her and being like, okay, all right, it almost feels like he's agreeing to a proposal, which is really weird. [SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm like, do you like her? [SPEAKER_04]: I guess you do because you said yes. [SPEAKER_04]: I like you want to date.

36:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I never say I like you. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but it's like, [SPEAKER_04]: do you think that that was the writer's intention that like they knew they had given us this guy who was never intended to be her love interest and they had to somehow shift him into one? [SPEAKER_04]: And they were like, okay, so Lane is going to be zacks exception to the rule in the way that Rory is for Logan.

36:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you feel like the writers were trying to do that at all in like in any of the ways that they wrote Zach and Lane's storyline and maybe they just didn't stick the landing? [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I could see that, like since they were kind of around similar times, you know, like maybe they were just like, yeah, we've got the, like let's just, you know, keep it going.

36:40 [SPEAKER_02]: But I just feel like then there was like not any effort into it. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, if they were to do that, I don't like it. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm not for it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: The frustrating aspect of it because I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.

36:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like they did such a good job with creating the character of Lane and making this care about Lane. [SPEAKER_00]: This secondary character, like you've said, that like a lot of times in a lot of shows, it's like whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't care. [SPEAKER_00]: I find myself, and maybe it's because I see myself in Lane, but really caring about what happens with Lane.

37:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think that's what makes it so [SPEAKER_00]: with Dave and then they peel it back and then they kind of just don't stick any landing. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if they were going for anything was Zach beyond just the happenstance of him being there, but I think they just didn't know what to do on how to and not that Lane needs solving or fixing, but she's very clearly [SPEAKER_00]: Born into this troublesome situation that's kind of humorous at first, but the more seasons they tack on the like her upbringing It's like all right We got to get her out of here somehow and like inevitably growing up as a part of that and dating somebody as a part of that and so yeah They just took what they had in front of them and I don't I don't really think they put much thought at all into it

37:54 [SPEAKER_06]: I mean it definitely feels like that in reflection because what you were saying my about like kind of feeling like this is her version of Logan. [SPEAKER_06]: I was thinking about that when we were talking earlier because there's a lot of episodes that feel like lane and worry storylines in season five are paralleling especially in you jump because you jump item jack is when Zach comes to lane and says I'm ready now and they go on their first date which is paralleled to worry and Logan going on this first outing together.

38:22 [SPEAKER_06]: But it's like if they're creating those relationships between the two of them that it's like oh They're both dating kind of like playboys now. [SPEAKER_06]: They're both kind of trying to reform the guy that they're with worries in a much different way And you're comparing those two parts that the episode is like okay Re-shumping off a scaffolding in a ball gown that he picked out for her Zach the meanwhile put on some clothes And now they're sitting on their couch watching movie.

38:43 [SPEAKER_02]: They are watching last night So any and again, it's like so do they hate her like it does feel like they are [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, or like what what was wrong with the writer on the writer's team who was like this is good I wish they would used him as a tool for continuing to develop lane and not endgame because we have endgame concerns with Rory of course We have endgame concerns of more life [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think Lane necessarily needs an end-game romantically.

39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I think she needs something to help get her out of the problem we see her in, which is somebody to help her stand up for herself, to know what she wants in life, to pursue her dreams. [SPEAKER_00]: So the band is, even though I think the band plotline kind of drags on and you kind of not really care about it as they're going on tour as much compared to what's going on with the other characters.

39:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I would have appreciated Zach being a tool of lanes on growth, more so than just for a romantic end game. [SPEAKER_04]: Totally agree. [SPEAKER_04]: I have always said, and we talked about this moment revisited the series on Patreon, that once Lane and Zach break up after Zach has his little, little hissy fit, his little temper tantrum, with the Gwen Stefani Mike, I think that instead of proposing.

39:52 [SPEAKER_04]: I think instead of proposing, it should have just been like, we tried this and it didn't work, and I'd love for you to still be my bandmate, but like, [SPEAKER_04]: All right. [SPEAKER_04]: We did it. [SPEAKER_04]: We tried and like now we're just going to be friends who are in a band and like look at me.

40:04 [SPEAKER_00]: The band go be really successful and watch that be an interesting plan. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's practically hard to execute on TV, but I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like it's like she didn't like need to be at 22 like loft down for life at the end of the series. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel like we didn't that wasn't like a necessity we needed.

40:21 [SPEAKER_04]: No, and I don't even know that Amy would have done that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't know. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, she did. [SPEAKER_04]: She got married in season six. [SPEAKER_04]: She got married in season six, but she didn't have kids in your life. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, didn't have kids in season seven.

40:34 [SPEAKER_04]: So maybe the two of them were going to get married and travel the world and, you know, whatever, you know, obviously she worked with a Trista area or at least a Trista area. [SPEAKER_04]: But she worked with what she had. [SPEAKER_04]: We kind of see it reflected in the revival that like, you know, Lane and Zach are [SPEAKER_04]: playing at the Secret Bar and like, you know, they have their kids and they're living in Sukey's house and like, so maybe that's a reflection of where she was always intending to take Lane's character and in that she was gonna stay in Star's Hollow and like, you know, be marrying and be a mom and that was her her fate.

41:05 [SPEAKER_04]: So to speak. [SPEAKER_04]: But I agree with you that I think that with Zach, I just don't think it should have been Zach. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree. [SPEAKER_02]: Especially right up because I think [SPEAKER_04]: I agree. [SPEAKER_04]: It was brutal. [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't even be friends with him after that.

41:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just like all the red flags. [SPEAKER_04]: If they were the red flags before, they really came out there. [SPEAKER_04]: And anything that we saw from Zach that felt like it was redeeming, which we'll talk about in a second. [SPEAKER_04]: I feel kind of went out the window in that moment.

41:36 [SPEAKER_04]: It was like you ruined our band for selfish reasons because I do think at the end of the day, it's Zach's way or no way. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: This goes back to kind of a point with the network TV writing and talking about your, their intentions, whether or not they had clear intentions with, was Zach.

41:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of times in these shows with lots of episodes and they're just writing each week. [SPEAKER_00]: They kind of write in major actions that take place by a character and then don't face the consequences of having, like, they wanted to be entertaining for the sake of one episode, like Zach threw a hissy fit with the ones to fawny mic.

42:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But then they don't want to face the consequences of that basically ruining his character for the audience. [SPEAKER_00]: And saying, I don't know if I feel good about Lane being with this person anymore, they just expect us to forget that happened. [SPEAKER_04]: totally, especially because the way that they want us to forget that it happened, which is in classic Gilmore Girls fashion, they resolve or defuse conflict with a proposal.

42:35 [SPEAKER_04]: And as she ambushes her in the, her placing a relationship at her place of working in the ambushes her to propose to her. [SPEAKER_04]: And then, like, we're supposed to just be like, and when that happens, you know, it's framed from the people the townies surrounding it, but then Kirk specifically being like, kiss him, sugar, like, it's that's supposed to be like, how they feel is meant to be the reflection of how, I think the writers want the audience to feel like, this is really sweet, and this is really cute.

43:02 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, but did we forget about the fact that he literally just did all of this bad stuff? [SPEAKER_04]: And now we're just meant to be like, oh, it's fine they're engaged, you know? [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think that's realistic for how people deal with conflicts. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that there's a lot of themes in humanity and go more girls.

43:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Where it's not satisfying, but it's real. [SPEAKER_00]: And like that's the deal with style. [SPEAKER_00]: We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, [SPEAKER_04]: I know exactly.

43:38 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's kind of what I grappled with in doing research for this and watching Zack is like, is this realistic? [SPEAKER_04]: Like, Dave Orkowski was such a diamond in the rough for Lane. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like, he kind of came in and I do think set the bar really high. [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, is it more realistic that the guy that she ends up with is not nearly as exciting or as romantic as like her 17-year-old boyfriend from high school?

44:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Kind of. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, it makes me feel sick though. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, it's not a main thing. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me infuse something just to just because I have to coming from the lane who married his Dave, her Dave, like it happened. [SPEAKER_00]: It can happen. [SPEAKER_00]: I refuse to allow that to be the realistic notion because like the reason I have such strong feelings about this particular topic within Gilmore Girls is because if if Maya moved away, if Maya moved to New York City when we were- [SPEAKER_00]: in two years in high school, a senior's in high school.

44:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm watching a TV show what my life could have been like. [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think that there are Dave's out there and you don't have to sell for Zack. [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to sell for Zack. [SPEAKER_00]: And that is the message of our social media that we do, right? [SPEAKER_00]: No.

44:59 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Find your Dave. [SPEAKER_00]: He's out there. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not going to move to California in the review. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't listen to Gilmore girls. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a couple of you too. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: Get like, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, get away from your mom.

45:12 [SPEAKER_06]: No, you know, it's interesting about all that though is that I'm honestly Endured to Zach before he goes to lane like of course We don't want this to be realistic. [SPEAKER_06]: We don't want that to be like how most people like settle Conflict but he goes to the band and he goes to Brian and he goes to Gill and he seeks them out [SPEAKER_06]: also in their place of work, also while they're playing gig.

45:35 [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know why he can't do this in their free time, but he like really wants to make things right with them. [SPEAKER_06]: And you're like, wow, you and Brian are best friends. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, that's what this should be about. [SPEAKER_06]: And you should go to lane and be like, we shouldn't be together, but come join me and my pals and let's be happy, land and let's rock and let's make like lots of like Fleetwood Mac references for the rest of this season.

45:57 [SPEAKER_06]: you know and I think that there could have been like tons of like inspiration in terms of writing that came from that lots of lore that could have like happened but it really the only thing about that break up that that tantrum that Zach throws that like endears me is he goes to Brian and Gill and like pleat this case and I'm like well that's cute but now we're going to go to your love interest and I don't like this anymore yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah [SPEAKER_02]: Does he go to them at that birthday party?

46:24 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. [SPEAKER_02]: There are the singing stuff. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that's true. [SPEAKER_06]: He's singing Gwen Stefani, is he not? [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that girl? [SPEAKER_06]: Singing Hall of the Girl. [SPEAKER_00]: But that girl cover, I'm Gwen Stefani. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what you're saying.

46:36 [SPEAKER_04]: But that's excellent. [SPEAKER_04]: I love them. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, them as a trio. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I mean, Zach is kind of an asshole when it comes to Gill, who's arguably one of the best characters from the man. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, love him, but it's just so funny that like that's who he goes back to first and I'm like, yeah, I'm with Hailey Like I'm I'm on board with that like get the band back together What does he mean that you and Lane have to be back together?

46:58 [SPEAKER_06]: No, but what would have been really excellent because like as we're talking about season five and like how That could have been different because it's really like from the beginning of their relationship in five to the end [SPEAKER_06]: Nothing really happens between the two of them. [SPEAKER_06]: Other than Lane saying that she is not ready for sex, and he, like, is respectful of that bare minimum, but like, well, it's good.

47:20 [SPEAKER_06]: Is that it would have been so interesting if you'd gone to Gil, who's happily married with children? [SPEAKER_06]: about relationship advice. [SPEAKER_06]: That's like the conversation I was missing was because I was just like I feel like he's just ready to talk about anything and everything that man, you know, go down to his sub shop and get some love advice from Gille.

47:42 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'm picturesing the sub shop like that would have been amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think that like, Gill was someone they should have explored more and Zach, if they were going to develop him, that would have been a great mentor figure or some way to make Zach, if they are going to go down that path of a revised Zach, the name that could have been a path for sure.

48:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe even like when she gets pregnant, like I know he Zach kind of teams up with her mom and I feel like it kind of would have been better if like maybe like he was like really going to kill in that and like tell like, you know, what do I do? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, I think that would have been cute.

48:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually have to point out to one of my main gripes with Lane Storyline is the resolution or lack thereof with Mrs. Kim, and I think Zach plays into that as well. [SPEAKER_00]: He's given kind of this ripe opportunity. [SPEAKER_00]: I was actually in preparing for this episode. [SPEAKER_00]: I was looking up a few scenes and one that came across, that I came across was when Mrs. Kim tells him that he's going to burn in hellfire in the middle of the...

48:47 [SPEAKER_00]: where. [SPEAKER_00]: And because she's finding out about that there that's Lane is interested in him. [SPEAKER_00]: And I I compare that again, I'm going to bring it back to Dave, but like you see how Dave deals with the unreasonable, religious craziness of Mrs. Kim by reading the whole Bible as a gesture of good faith.

49:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you see how Zach responds by cowering and fear and hiding and making that Lane's [SPEAKER_00]: And I just, I think that through the end, like obviously the end of having kids and like the wedding is like Mrs. Kim kind of puts in an effort and the dance she puts in an effort, but I was unsatisfying.

49:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I would have rather had Zach kind of helped lane to touch. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And mediate because not that mediation went family, making it with family is an important. [SPEAKER_00]: But at this point, kind of hope that there'd be a little bit more of growth in that regard.

49:44 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that it's not that she's having to not only contend for herself and her family, but also now for her relationship. [SPEAKER_06]: That later there has to be that like support, which gave it on his own. [SPEAKER_06]: He wasn't, he was asked, like when at Dance Marathon, when he knew that him being there was going to be a problem for Lane immediately, he was like waiting for my parents, who are at Bible study?

50:06 [SPEAKER_06]: Are they at Bible study? [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: He kind of made me believe like they were. [SPEAKER_06]: But like, it's like kind of like a double-edged sword there, though, because like, would have loved to have seen Zach bounce back from that well, like the, what we called the Mrs. Kim Candy Graham.

50:19 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we've been middle of the street. [SPEAKER_06]: We like, there's so many people. [SPEAKER_06]: We need to send a Mrs. Kim Candy Graham to let me list them, but that we loved seeing that. [SPEAKER_06]: But would have loved to have seen him have bounced back in a real way that was like meaningful and not just who he was.

50:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: And where I do think that he kind of shows up and that regard is, and I guess this is more of a requirement than it is, like, I really want to do this is when they write the song together for him to, you know, get Mrs. Kim's blessing. [SPEAKER_04]: She's like, you need a red hit song.

50:48 [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, okay, and he spends that time with her. [SPEAKER_04]: I do think that endears us to Zach. [SPEAKER_04]: I wish, like you said, he had been kind of doing it from the beginning. [SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that like seeing the comparison against Dave is really what makes it so, [SPEAKER_04]: Challenging to give Zach his flowers there is because like if we didn't see Dave do it We might think like oh my people really impossible to get that from Mrs. Kim or You know, but like because we saw it in Dave we're like we know that you can do it We know that someone can do it.

51:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're not the right guy If they had never had Dave then we probably would have just been like okay Zach like whenever Yeah, but like I wouldn't mean it because I just love Dave. [SPEAKER_00]: We got blessed with a CZ Dave and that's all we got And I wouldn't change it from the world that the aftermath is painful [SPEAKER_00]: And I was gonna say this earlier with even the relatively small number, but still a number of people who are quote unquote satisfied with this outcome.

51:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a reflection and it's a kind of a case study on how people mourn. [SPEAKER_00]: I think I think not to belittle those people's apparent satisfaction, but I think they're lying to themselves. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the four mistakes of grief, you know you bargain, you try to make good of a situation you can't control, and I get that.

51:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So I have sympathy for those people, but they're wrong, and it's okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers with you too, because I actually don't know if we've ever talked about this, but somewhere I try to pretty, I kind of feel like that's Jeremiah's. [SPEAKER_06]: See, we haven't watched it.

52:12 [SPEAKER_06]: I watched season one, but like I know enough of the social conversation to know that like, that's true. [SPEAKER_00]: It's very, it's very similar because early on, there's somewhat of a reasonable argument for someone like Jeremiah. [SPEAKER_00]: They actually have really to come to screen the first season.

52:28 [SPEAKER_00]: and people kind of stick to their guns even though through season two and three you've started to see very clear reasons why that's not the right fit and why even the writer is saying this isn't the right fit this was produced by the writer of the books but people stick to their guns because they've kind of already committed to this team if you will and not that people have committed to it, they can't return it [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and not that people have committed to teams act, but I think people love this show so much and they don't want to acknowledge that there are flaws and I'm sure you guys see that all across the board and talk to the conversation with this is that people are resistant to see flaws in their favorite show that brings them so much comfort.

53:07 [SPEAKER_06]: It's also a lot of people filling in the blank of like we recognize this a lot with we did a episode that I would love your thoughts on because we posed a question was Luke really all in when he said I am all in and we kind of landed on a he thought he was. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but with that one a lot of people talk about how the writers ruined it and it's like No, the writers wrote it.

53:32 [SPEAKER_06]: They wrote it and it's your perception of what you think this character should have done and like the fanfiction that you don't [SPEAKER_06]: realize you're writing in your mind about this character is like created and so I think that happens a lot of times where it's like you immediately love a character and then like you can't just look at the evidence in the show because you have too much love for them.

53:52 [SPEAKER_06]: You have a low pair of social relationship with them a little bit and don't we all but yeah I can I can definitely see that there but I just like don't I don't know how you do it with that you know [SPEAKER_06]: No, but I, there was someone who in the question box of why he was a good fit that I wrote this down because I felt like it would be an interesting take to hear your response to of why Zach was a good fit.

54:16 [SPEAKER_06]: It was he didn't leave to go to California. [SPEAKER_06]: I won't tolerate Zach hate. [SPEAKER_06]: Dave is creepy. [SPEAKER_06]: He gives creepy pastor vibes. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know where to start. [SPEAKER_04]: Where do I begin? [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, I have known many creepy pastors.

54:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you have a Bible all in one night. [SPEAKER_06]: You know what the thing is? [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, I don't wanna assume, but when I read that, I was like, I bet, I bet they know creepy pastors. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the commitment to the bit is almost an negation in itself.

54:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he read the Bible all in one night. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know any of my pastors who did that, growing up. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was like, excellent lighting. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and the creepiness that I think the referencing is it kind of goes towards earlier about like the love bombing Relativity of like, okay, yeah, I guess if you're not into that, maybe you don't maybe see that as weird and creepy But I perceived that as a huge gesture of meeting Lane where she is despite the challenge and the inconvenience It would be to a romantic partner to have to deal with that absurdity [SPEAKER_06]: Or like you even think about Thanksgiving.

55:27 [SPEAKER_06]: He gave up his Thanksgiving to play guitar all day long for $20. [SPEAKER_06]: And he was thrilled about it. [SPEAKER_06]: And what was he going to do with that $20? [SPEAKER_06]: Put it towards the first day. [SPEAKER_02]: And I do wonder if some of this is like people who think that's creepy.

55:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, because like, we'll sometimes get DMs about like certain things that like, huntra will do. [SPEAKER_02]: And people are like, no, like, I was tremendous. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a match. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, so maybe there's some people who just like, they don't like when, [SPEAKER_02]: like they're not an acts of service, they're not a, like, I don't know, I have a hot take.

55:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I, as someone who tries really hard, this might be a bias thing, but I personally think that anyone who argues that they're not into grand gestures or into, you know, like their partner or going above and beyond for them. [SPEAKER_00]: that that's kind of a trained response because men have been enabled to be so lackluster for generations and so when men go above and beyond that it's seen as off-putting because you're used to it being the contrary.

56:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And so not to say that they're can't be creepiness and they're can't be overbearing and they're can't be overstepping clear social boundaries. [SPEAKER_00]: But when there's that spark in that connection it's not it's it's it's it's [SPEAKER_02]: and it would be like if you were like if he was like showing up at a door was like on the love with you why don't you honor date with it like that's like a little bit different than like doing something that like really doesn't even involve you know what I mean like and he just has so much he is I mean he just yeah he's just just no that's large and organs to risk later [SPEAKER_00]: but he's in the court of riz.

56:59 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, he's in the court. [SPEAKER_06]: He's like a lord of riz or something. [SPEAKER_06]: It might not be the king, but he's he's in the court. [SPEAKER_06]: Do you guys want to hear some other reasons? [SPEAKER_06]: Why people thought he was a good fit? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: The first one I actually, I know sparkly heart it really hard because I don't understand where it came from.

57:16 [SPEAKER_06]: One of them was he got her humor. [SPEAKER_06]: Did Zach find her funny? [SPEAKER_06]: Did they have a laugh together? [SPEAKER_06]: Have they ever laughed? [SPEAKER_06]: That's such a good question, Maya. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, you can picture a character's laugh. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he laughed.

57:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the only funny thing I can think of him saying was, and this wasn't even, this was a joke to the audience, I feel like, but like, when the girl asked, like, did you think I wanted this or whatever at the restaurant, and he goes, no, she's really smart, because yes, yes, she's just not wearing her glasses.

57:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, hilarious. [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I don't think Lane is someone who is, like, especially compared to the Gilmore girls who are quicky and witty, I don't think Lane is someone who's often intentionally funny. [SPEAKER_00]: She's a funny character. [SPEAKER_02]: She would joke about her situation a lot, but then I feel like maybe in the band.

58:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think she's someone who really like would tell jokes. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't really get that definitely with Hannah. [SPEAKER_00]: No, with Hannah. [SPEAKER_04]: No, she's no comedian. [SPEAKER_04]: But maybe you could say that they connected on a musical level.

58:20 [SPEAKER_04]: And she had that Dave. [SPEAKER_04]: But like, you know, yeah, I guess it's kind of a checkmark for Zack that he understood her likes and dislikes. [SPEAKER_04]: But I wouldn't necessarily say on musical level. [SPEAKER_04]: he couldn't write a song about he like he struggled to write a song about her and he got her and they got it out the band like it's like it seems like music she'll hear a point of contention between them most often yeah no no it's like any child but it's also i do think that that's kind of what happens sometimes sometimes when you work closely with someone in that same vein there's probably going to be a little [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know anything about working together.

58:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, literally what's about to say I was like, do you guys feel that way? [SPEAKER_04]: And that's why I said sometimes. [SPEAKER_06]: This is not not everything. [SPEAKER_00]: Always in so much love, always heart-feminine from other people. [SPEAKER_06]: You're never never, never a mad word, ever.

59:09 [SPEAKER_02]: No, actually though I think working together is really hard. [SPEAKER_02]: So I do understand you. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like you're so comfortable with each other that like it's like, which maybe they aren't. [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: If you like it's just like you have this level like no, why don't we on the same page like it's so frustrating when you don't agree so like I could get that, but also I don't think they were close enough yet to know be get to that point no someone outside that they are very much opposites attract and I was like sure, but that doesn't always mean that's a good fit.

59:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Opposites attract as well because it most often doesn't work. [SPEAKER_06]: So when it's like when it does it's like, yeah, they work because they each others gaps and it's like, yeah, another reason someone said he was a good fit was he was the only man in the show who got better from an unplanned pregnancy.

59:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's it. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very neat word. [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, I was about to say the bar is in hell because it's Christopher and Christopher only. [SPEAKER_04]: Link. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess we could count Luke if you count, um, um, uh, April. [SPEAKER_00]: April as an unfund pregnancy later on, um, that's fair.

1:00:15 [SPEAKER_04]: That's fair. [SPEAKER_00]: And also, we've yet to see their infants, okay, like, yeah, the light show where they weren't in the revival. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, I guess, oh, did you get better in the revival? [SPEAKER_06]: I forgot how to remember other relationships really is, but they they don't really show them much.

1:00:30 [SPEAKER_06]: They just all come to play band practice and play a song for quite a significant part of the show. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: A very musical revival if I remember. [SPEAKER_06]: Very musical revival. [SPEAKER_06]: Someone said he was good fit because there was no one comparing to that's wrong.

1:00:45 [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you can compare him to anyone you've ever met. [SPEAKER_04]: You can compare him to anyone. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this entire episode we have been comparing. [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to say the entire episode we've been comparing him to everybody, specifically Dave. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so someone mentions that he respects Lane Sanctuary's.

1:01:00 [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to have sex yet, which like bare minimum, which this writer made a mom. [SPEAKER_06]: This person who wrote it at the time. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it was, it was like, yeah, maybe in [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I often not to excuse the passing of time and cultural and, you know, how our standards have changed because they've progressed and evolved, but like I do sometimes want to highlight the fact that like the early 2000s, like our values weren't as developed, and so maybe that at that time was supposed to be a standout characteristic.

1:01:26 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, especially on a teenager show like or at least with like a somewhat younger romance, like that's important. [SPEAKER_06]: Someone said that everyone acts like he wasn't good enough for her, but Lane always craved grunge, simple rock and roll, which I think is wrong. [SPEAKER_00]: part of Lane's character is that she loves this music taste and she's always like saying how much she's got this grungy rock taste but like that never reflects in her personality.

1:01:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can like music like I like really hardcore hip hop like I love rap and that does not look like me but like that doesn't mean that I'm acting that way. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it definitely I don't think transferred into any of her partners pretty easily, you know, like not that she can't change your mind.

1:02:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not something that like she. [SPEAKER_02]: He was the first. [SPEAKER_00]: He was, again, they utilized him as that rock star figure to try to play on that interest, but I don't think that was ever her personality. [SPEAKER_06]: Now, and he wasn't really a rock star, was he? [SPEAKER_06]: No.

1:02:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He really wanted to be. [SPEAKER_06]: He really wanted to be. [SPEAKER_06]: He really wanted to be. [SPEAKER_06]: He really wanted to be. [SPEAKER_06]: Someone said he never wanted her to change, which was very interesting, because that was like juxtaposed with someone else who said that he really liked Turner Glasses, which I think at that point, it's kind of like, it feels like you're kind of like her mom a little bit, like when he went home for Lunar New Year, which actually is next week or.

1:02:44 [SPEAKER_06]: the week before this aired in terms of art listeners. [SPEAKER_06]: But when she comes back and like the thing that Mrs. Kim and Zack Bondover is they want to control a part of her. [SPEAKER_06]: They're like you need to wear glasses. [SPEAKER_02]: No, literally, and didn't that come from, I don't know if I'm right about this, but the same scene where like the mom was like, why aren't you helping like you don't help anymore and she was like, I'm the guest here, I don't have to help and then like she says like something better last isn't then she's like so they both kind of are in on this thing and it's like obviously wanted to like wear glasses and get up and I'll lay yeah.

1:03:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I do think the intention of the writers was for us to feel like Zack is like I love you as you are and he's came also saying the same yeah totally I don't think that necessarily like translated well it doesn't necessarily translate well when you're analyzing a series the way that we do where we're just like huh well that kind of feels I mean it's reasoning [SPEAKER_04]: is like well how are people going to know your smart if you don't wear your glasses you're the first smart girl I've ever dated and how are they going to know they're going to have to talk to you for two minutes before they'll even know your smart and I'm like all right well first it was kind of cute that you like turn your glasses, but now I think this is selfish this is about you

1:03:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I love the imagery of these writers in 2001 or whatever being that they imagining a podcast of people criticizing and analyzing every little detail they wrote when like the popular media was like maybe an article online, but most of them I hope will discuss pop culture back says no, but they never say never come in never had a chance like they would have spent a little bit longer [SPEAKER_00]: That's so funny.

1:04:24 [SPEAKER_06]: Some things about why he sucks, which is really just reiterating a lot of what we said here, if you wouldn't have suspected this question box had infinitely more answers than the other one, but a fair few of them were that he was the inspiration for the song, Man Child by Sabrina Carpenter, which I feel like that's pretty, pretty accurate.

1:04:47 [SPEAKER_06]: immature view of women is gross, impossible to list all of the reasons why in one question box lazy, condescending, emotionally immature, especially when they have the when they're playing for the label that's supposed to be there. [SPEAKER_06]: When he hit on lower lie, lower lie, lower lie, a lot of people wrote that in, just that line, lower lie, lower lie, lower [SPEAKER_04]: someone asked the question why did he like her yes and that is the thing is that like there is no courtship we just see Lane be like hey I like you and then like never really get at least in that moment we never get him being like I like you too it's not until he sets up that really it's a beautiful date he sets up that date for them at home with the candles in the flat soda and it's because he wants to have sex with her and

1:05:35 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like cute until that moment when you realize it's not until then that he says he goes I liked you the day I met you. [SPEAKER_04]: I remember what you were wearing. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like Oh, what do you do? [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's just so out of left field. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_00]: and it also gives the way they set it up with the lack of courtship was like he only cared once she said no.

1:06:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Like when she took it away, she proposed this idea that he could have fruity rejected but then when she took it away, then oh no, I want that now. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a petrol and child. [SPEAKER_06]: Which is a little bit more e-logan, because once Logan wasn't gonna be able to have her in the way that he had before, he was like, oh, actually I don't wanna lose you.

1:06:17 [SPEAKER_06]: His shirt. [SPEAKER_06]: A lot more immediate. [SPEAKER_06]: Dact took like six days, business days, I'm sure. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: that like, it's like, like, the work. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But it, but it also, I have to wait till it. [SPEAKER_06]: She was in business.

1:06:30 [SPEAKER_06]: But it just makes you kind of question when you go back to the beginning of season three and like, we're meeting Dave and we're meeting um, what will become happy, Lian is like, okay, Zach, you liked her the day you met her and then you watch Dave be with her? [SPEAKER_06]: Is that like something that like you?

1:06:46 [SPEAKER_06]: Wanted that for yourself? [SPEAKER_04]: Like that's really the only insight we get into him having And like matched those feelings. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean obviously his feelings develop as their relationship Developers which you wouldn't have so the gang bare minimum, but we don't really get any insight into like why did he like her?

1:07:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that that was important for the audience to be in dear to Zach because that is exactly what we got from Dave Dave like locked in on her immediately They locked in on each other and it was just like he was willing to do anything and everything he could just to get a date with her just go to the palm with her like yeah and that's okay [SPEAKER_00]: That's how we're shown mail it a traction on-cam on TV.

1:07:29 [SPEAKER_00]: From these female characters, we hear the dialogue about how they feel about the character. [SPEAKER_00]: So we know that they care about them. [SPEAKER_00]: Typically, from the male characters, we see this pining in this courtship. [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you don't get any of that, and you don't get the dialogue to support it, it's like, well, there's nothing there.

1:07:45 [SPEAKER_06]: Someone said he's inconsiderate and eluser, which I love. [SPEAKER_06]: He didn't challenge her, which led to her settling into the life that she ended up in. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: He wouldn't write a song about her, bare minimum. [SPEAKER_06]: You see, I'm Nesong Taylor Swift has written, you couldn't write one, come on.

1:07:58 [SPEAKER_06]: Someone said she's the uncyclopedia, and he's rock for dummies, loved that. [SPEAKER_06]: She has dreams, and he has zero work ethic. [SPEAKER_06]: What do they have in common other than the band? [SPEAKER_07]: Nothing. [SPEAKER_06]: Nothing. [SPEAKER_04]: And to that end, actually, I meant to point this out earlier, when they're talking about the band, backstage when Jackson gives them that song at the rally and they're like, yeah, how are we going to play this without feeling embarrassed?

1:08:22 [SPEAKER_04]: And Zach says something to the effect of like, when Lane criticized him like, well, like, [SPEAKER_04]: If there's not going to be a bunch of girls, like, jumping up and down in front of you, like, that's okay. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, we're a band. [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, that's the whole point of being in a band is for, like, the girls.

1:08:34 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's funny because Brian and Gill actually agree. [SPEAKER_04]: But, like, yeah, you're kind of like, why are you in a band? [SPEAKER_04]: Why? [SPEAKER_04]: Because, like, this is Lane's dream. [SPEAKER_04]: It happens with the CBGB thing, like they're all like, okay, well, whatever, and she's like, no, this is like everything to me.

1:08:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know that they necessarily align on dreams, so I find that really interesting that that listener said that. [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's like, you can't not see the death of her dream as associated with the progression of her exact. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just harsh. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, especially because when we get to that moment in season six, when the band breaks up, because of Zach's tantrum, when lean is like being really mopey about it, I think it's more so because she lost the dream of the band.

1:09:18 [SPEAKER_06]: And she lost her relationship, but it doesn't really feel like the band really comes back into play. [SPEAKER_06]: It just feels like her and Zach get back together. [SPEAKER_06]: They have the wedding, which like they're wedding is spectacular. [SPEAKER_04]: They're wedding is what [SPEAKER_06]: I love the mother's wedding, and then we have the mother's younger partners, yeah, yeah, I love that.

1:09:40 [SPEAKER_06]: But it just doesn't feel like she comes back. [SPEAKER_06]: It just, we never get lean into the dreams that she was dreaming, until she mentions that she had to get that up. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And like, of course, we're talking about Zach here, but like it does feel like a partner would be someone who would.

1:09:53 [SPEAKER_06]: Like, challenge you in those dreams. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, this is what you wanted, what made you stop doing that, and how can I help you get back to that point? [SPEAKER_06]: especially hard when you're the one that broke up the band, which was the director. [SPEAKER_02]: Holy, you're totally.

1:10:07 [SPEAKER_06]: The last one I have is he was a whiner, not a winner. [SPEAKER_04]: Mmm, so fair. [SPEAKER_04]: So, I know we've spent a lot of time kind of shitting all over Zack, and rightfully so I could definitely earn it, but where would we give him his flowers? [SPEAKER_04]: If at all. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want that silence edit out by the way.

1:10:28 [SPEAKER_06]: Definitely. [SPEAKER_06]: I keep it to say. [SPEAKER_06]: That was not that silence was real. [SPEAKER_06]: That was not extended in any way by our editor. [SPEAKER_05]: That was the real link of the silence. [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's he's a killer bromance character with with Brian. [SPEAKER_00]: I think he filled that role well and then.

1:10:49 [SPEAKER_00]: What else? [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have any proof of once he's actually a dad, but I like that they kind of insinuated that he wasn't going to be a deadbeat dad when he started paying attention to like, sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Getting all the supplies and stuff, like it seemed like you would be involved, I guess.

1:11:07 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because oddly, when we got to that of our season 7 rewatch, we did a recap. [SPEAKER_06]: We always give like a star of the season. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, our star of season seven was Zach because it was like kind of like our biggest surprise was we were like wow of like all of the people to change with these new writers Yeah, the change in Zach was the most it was good.

1:11:29 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, like it felt like the best because he he stepped up like when he found like when he did find out they were going to have bait like babies Yeah, he kind of like stepped into that role and like helped her mom and like [SPEAKER_06]: maybe who was being overbearing, but I think that's maybe the one time in a relationship when being overbearing is really warranted.

1:11:49 [SPEAKER_04]: But I will say that part of that came from the fact that in season seven, everything around us as far as relationships went fell apart. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, [SPEAKER_04]: We're a Logan kind of get a little boring. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you can lower a lie or obviously like boom and we're watching Christopher and lower lie like of course Zach looks better because So y'all made Zach look good.

1:12:11 [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, they're best right now. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's terrible. [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that's Aaron. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know, that's it, but that's fair. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's give him something. [SPEAKER_06]: But it is hard for us because it's season seven.

1:12:22 [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a original Amy from Paladino, Dan Paladino. [SPEAKER_06]: So like we give it with like very many grains of salt with that one because of that. [SPEAKER_06]: But. [SPEAKER_06]: It is hard, I think, to give Zach his flowers in season 5 and 6. [SPEAKER_06]: The only thing I will say, as much as I do not like the engagement, I do like that he did not go to Mrs. Kim first because I feel like the lane wouldn't have liked that.

1:12:46 [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like going to lane first and then going to Mrs. Kim and like lying to her a little bit because he was like, [SPEAKER_06]: We can't tell Lane. [SPEAKER_06]: We don't want to get her hopes up, like we have to write this hit song first, and he goes through that knowing she's already said yes, but the hoops that he jumps through for that feels like what he should have been doing all along, but that's like the only, we'll give him one flower, not flowers.

1:13:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I do remember that interaction with this is Kim feeling good. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but that's just the one. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh no, which one is it? [SPEAKER_04]: Not that song. [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's the, what's the big commotion? [SPEAKER_05]: I've had it stuck in my head all day. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

1:13:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Did you guys know that greatly Philips wrote that song? [SPEAKER_05]: He wrote that. [SPEAKER_04]: He told me when he was on. [SPEAKER_04]: He had no idea until he was on the podcast. [SPEAKER_04]: He was like, oh yeah, I wrote that commotion song that lit, like, Zach plays and I was like, [SPEAKER_06]: You wrote what's the big commotion?

1:13:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: OK, so at the end of it all, besides Dave Rogowski making a big return, and like coming in and sweeping lane off of her feet, what would have been better for lane than Zach? [SPEAKER_00]: Besides anything, [SPEAKER_04]: besides anything else, besides anything else. [SPEAKER_00]: Why, literally, any other possibility, I feel very strongly about Lane getting out of Star's Hollow.

1:14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the band was a perfect avenue for that. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the success and progression of the band and her getting her dream, and materially separating from her mom and building a life for herself, that felt like. [SPEAKER_00]: the the best alternative. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's what we need to see because Lane is introduced to us as this this sweet, talented, ambitious person who is locked in a cage.

1:14:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think any outcome where she's let out of that cage is a good story arc. [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel sad that it seems like she's in just in a different cage by the end. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to diminish having children as being a cage. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I'm saying.

1:14:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I never find what she is. [SPEAKER_04]: Don't I think a lot of people feel that way, even moms? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I think like being single, probably, or with anyone else? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't wear it loving.

1:15:00 [SPEAKER_00]: That sounds like it's purpose. [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't. [SPEAKER_02]: And like, probably, honestly, maybe they're going on tour at the end of the series, but like, it was her going, you know, that would have been good. [SPEAKER_04]: Would have loved that for her. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, if you guys were going to put Lane and Zach together, they have babies, whatever, especially after we talked about this last week with Brett.

1:15:17 [SPEAKER_04]: especially after her having that moment in season seven where she's like, I like I just got out of jail essentially my life is over I had like one minute of freedom and now I'm back at it. [SPEAKER_04]: The idea of her being offered to go on tour and Zax dang at home with the kids would have been [SPEAKER_02]: Genius.

1:15:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Like yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. [SPEAKER_04]: You guys just like made everything better and maybe we could really maybe we could have gotten on board with Zach as her partner being like, yeah, totally down. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm totally down. [SPEAKER_04]: You go live your dreams. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm here rooting for you and I'm going to take care of the kids.

1:15:48 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Because you already took our job in Luke's because one thing we never really talked about today is what does Zach do during the day? [SPEAKER_04]: What does Zach do during the day? [SPEAKER_04]: He oversleaps at one point and then like he's like damn I overslapped and then he starts playing video games and I was like, oh, did you have an appointment?

1:16:05 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so he does he does take her job when she's I guess like on Luke's version of maternity leave is having the husband come in and take her job But I think he could have just yeah, could have just continued right along with that and Mrs. Kim taking like tending to her kids [SPEAKER_06]: I think it'd be a beautiful full circle moment to have her, you know, taking care of her kids and like a new way.

1:16:27 [SPEAKER_06]: It still feels a little bit like she got out, but like she's has like a new relationship with her mom where she's depending on her in new way. [SPEAKER_04]: I want to float this idea to you because it has been floated in the past, and I want to know how you feel. [SPEAKER_07]: Floated? [SPEAKER_04]: Marty.

1:16:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Friendly. [SPEAKER_04]: I please season seven, Lane and Marty meet at school when she's there like staying yeah and instead of like in an effort to like curtail the feelings that Marty had maybe had because it was kind of unclear at that point for worry Marty and Lane. [SPEAKER_00]: Maya hates the nice guy trope where he's just using being a nice guy to get to get to get, you know, perks.

1:17:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we got it. [SPEAKER_06]: We also feel like he's friends on it. [SPEAKER_04]: And but this would be like before that really came in like Marty and the warrior kind of pals like. [SPEAKER_04]: it's amazing for me. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to like picture him like because it's like his personality is so consistent with how he was back then, but it's just like more truth comes out about it.

1:17:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like I don't know how to separate him from that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm gonna. [SPEAKER_02]: I can get a fair answer, but as stands, I would rather her be with Zack than with you already. [SPEAKER_02]: That's wow. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I like that take. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't hate him as much as she does this early, but I do, uh, I do.

1:17:51 [UNKNOWN]: It's not cool. [SPEAKER_00]: That like it is a really annoying trope of a guy being like I'm so nice and more hang out And then when you don't have feelings for me like you're like you hurt my feelings and you're dead to me now It's like okay, well, I thought we were friends and a girl can't be friends with a guy without it ruining you know So I get that but I don't think I feel as strongly about [SPEAKER_00]: No one versus Zach, first of all.

1:18:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You see that being an interesting turn of time. [SPEAKER_06]: Bring her snacks, you know, Marty works really hard. [SPEAKER_06]: He could help. [SPEAKER_00]: And if he has to know our interests in the world, I kind of quirky interests as Roy does, it's how their friend develops, their friends are called.

1:18:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It is family life. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he'll be with you. [SPEAKER_00]: It in lanes music and movie tastes and stuff the things they do. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe maybe his [SPEAKER_06]: Dad, who's actually his uncle, pales and comparison to Miss Kim, and Miss Kim will be really endeared to him.

1:18:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think that moral of the story is like my initial answer, like where I landed after kind of doing this research and even before talking to you guys, but I feel like we kind of land on the same [SPEAKER_04]: on the same conclusion is the reason that Lane and Zack's relationship was so poorly received by the audience is a because David Gowski came first, but be because the relationship was always on Zack's terms after giving us that relationship with David Gowski who arguably was the only guy to ever twist and turn for the relationship to be on Lane's terms or at least for them to come together and like figure it out as a team.

1:19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely. [SPEAKER_04]: Totally brilliant. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great synopsis of this ultimately just dog pile. [SPEAKER_06]: I know. [SPEAKER_06]: And I, when we first came up with this, we're like, no, we're gonna come up with good reasons why they were a good fit, but the more I went through, I was like, you don't even have to compare him to Dave, he is bad all on his own.

1:19:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and honestly, if they ever do do a Christmas special, which I don't know if you guys have heard the rumbling, said it's been kind of weird. [SPEAKER_00]: We've heard the rumbling. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we've been part of the rumblings. [SPEAKER_04]: We've been rumbled. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we've also rumbled.

1:19:42 [SPEAKER_04]: We would love to see where they think Lane is ended up. [SPEAKER_04]: I Imagine they'd probably continue to keep her with Zach, but I would find it really exciting if they were to bring back [SPEAKER_04]: Adam Brody, who also, we've drawn the conclusion that we're going to bully him into coming on the podcast.

1:19:59 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's how you want to get a guest, bully him. [SPEAKER_00]: Let this be a declaration to all involved in the Gilmore revival for Christmas. [SPEAKER_00]: Lane and Zach need to not be together. [SPEAKER_02]: They need a divorce, you need to get back with Adam Brody. [SPEAKER_02]: Christmas magic, hallmark, type love, like that's part.

1:20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: That will be, that will make it for everyone and it will be nothing but a smash hit. [SPEAKER_00]: So, come on. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think they need to bring Paris and Doyle back together, didn't like that and they were of it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they didn't either. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it was clear that they thought, you know, when they had the reunion the year before they were like, yeah, Paris and Doyle are totally still together.

1:20:34 [SPEAKER_04]: And then they weren't. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think they've gotten through their differences. [SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, I think that Paris is the divorce attorney. [SPEAKER_04]: So she's probably going to start as hollow and help laying out. [SPEAKER_06]: Before we go, I did want to ask y'all what you'll thought about what we had talked about in a previous episode recently, which was if you think that Luke really was all in when he said, I'm all in.

1:20:55 [SPEAKER_00]: We always say Luke all in Dane, sarcastically. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So probably not. [SPEAKER_02]: I think no. [SPEAKER_00]: But you really kind of clocked me earlier, Haley, with the Parasel's relationship thing. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the criticizing the writers. [SPEAKER_00]: Because I was like, I always with Luke.

1:21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, he was a, like, that's character assassination for sure, like he. [SPEAKER_02]: We felt like that. [SPEAKER_00]: And, but then I was like, you know what, they did write it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's a reality channel sale so I appreciate that because because I really foresee this other I think we don't like the potential that they develop for themselves and then they wasted wasted potential It was such a beautiful thing that they timed well and that's they just hadn't gotten them together Like if they didn't want, yeah, if they were like, oh, it's too boring.

1:21:36 [SPEAKER_00]: If they're together and everything's good I wish they would have just waited They could have ended it with Luke all in danger And then that would have been the best finale ever the best like end of their arc ever [SPEAKER_04]: And I think they tried to do that in season seven, like they tried to bring it back around.

1:21:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think they stuck the land in kind of well at the end of the series. [SPEAKER_04]: But Team Jess feels the same way about Jess Mariano because I will say this up-down sideways. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, if they didn't have that spin off, they wouldn't have written XYZ and I have been on that hill.

1:22:07 [SPEAKER_04]: I've died on that hill several deaths. [SPEAKER_04]: So I got it. [SPEAKER_00]: That's on corporate greed. [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_06]: Meanwhile, I do, like, with Logan, we famously and season seven, we started calling him Yackeluser. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, that became his name, because he, you know, he became a Yackeluser.

1:22:29 [SPEAKER_06]: And I accepted that about it. [SPEAKER_06]: I actually coined that term for him, despite being a team Logan in my core, you know? [SPEAKER_00]: You're honest with yourself. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I was prepared when we locked in for season seven and we covered it.

1:22:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Haley had said that it was like one, she actually liked that season above a lot of the earlier seasons because that's what she grew up watching. [SPEAKER_04]: She loves Logan. [SPEAKER_04]: She wanted to, you know, see him and as we moved through it, she was like, this is actually some of the worst of Logan I've ever seen.

1:22:56 [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't like it. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, wow, okay. [SPEAKER_04]: Good for you, because it's hard, it's hard to like untoward yourself. [SPEAKER_06]: Don't more growth, we call it. [SPEAKER_06]: Feel more growth, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, feel more growth. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it takes, it takes, it takes five or six rewatches to get there.

1:23:08 [SPEAKER_06]: But it means, yes, yeah, you can not do it for the first one. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you can watch it. [SPEAKER_06]: It's good. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you'll get there. [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get to, you know what I mean. [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, once we're, once we're rum, [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

1:23:19 [SPEAKER_04]: What do you guys grow up? [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you guys so much for being here. [SPEAKER_04]: It's always so wonderful to talk to you to check in on how you're feeling about the girls. [SPEAKER_04]: Today in the boys, I love that you're in the midst of your third rewatch and we can't wait to have you guys back for another chat to dog pile on somebody else or when Adam Brody comes on the podcast, we'll just have you there.

1:23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll have you eating the baby. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you, Ryu. [SPEAKER_04]: This is mine. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having us. [SPEAKER_00]: It's always a great time. [SPEAKER_00]: We love talking about this show and we love the both of you. [SPEAKER_04]: video, big ditto.

1:23:48 [SPEAKER_04]: If you liked this episode or any of our other episodes, feel free to give us a five star review on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts as well as follow us on YouTube where you can watch. [SPEAKER_04]: are beautiful faces. [SPEAKER_04]: You can see my 100s beautiful faces if you've already listened to the episode and you want to rewatch it because it's always so much more animated when you get to watch it visually.

1:24:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And you can subscribe to us at Gilmore to say podcast. [SPEAKER_04]: You can also follow us on Instagram at Gilmore to say podcast and we also patreon bonus content. [SPEAKER_04]: patreon.com slash Gilmore to say next week's episode Speaking of Lane. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we're really just gonna stay on the [SPEAKER_04]: The Lane Train.

1:24:20 [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to talk about how Lane and Lorelai's upbringing really mirror one another and what Lane's story throughout the series says about Lorelai's upbringing that we heard about a lot on Gilmore Girls. [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll have more to say on that in the next episode.