Of Course You're Still Struggling (but it's Okay) with Jessica McCabe

0:00 Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey, team, this week I'm talking with the fantastic Jessica McCabe. Many of you probably already know Jessica from her award-winning YouTube channel, How to ADHD, where she has helped millions of people understand how ADHD brains work.

0:29 And Jessica is a returning guest. Last time she was on, we talked about her upcoming and now New York Times bestselling book, How to ADHD: An Insider's Guide to Working With Your Brain Not Against It, which also just came out in paperback. And last time Jessica was on the show, she was pregnant. So we dive into that a bit on this episode, discussing how having a kid really changed everything for her.

0:54 And we really do dig into some of those struggles that come with parenting while ADHD, and how those can compound with regular ADHD struggles as well through things like sleep, scheduling, and how much pressure we put on ourselves. we also get to hear a little about the new book that Jessica is starting to work on.

1:11 If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that at hackingyouradhd.com/318. All right, keep on listening to find out why sometimes something might work for your brain but might not work for your life right now All right. I'm so excited to have you back on the podcast. It's been a couple years now, since you were on, it was for the first release of your book, and now we've got the paperback edition.

1:45 telling me before we started that, you know, it's basically the same, but there's actually some, like, significant, like, physical differences in how people interact with it now. Yeah, I knew that it was really important, even for the first book, that the book feel right, that the, that it not feel bad to the touch, and that it have lots of white space and feel accessible so people could f- flip it open and actually read the page instead of, like, being overwhelmed by a big block of h- of text.

2:09 So they kept the white space. They kept all of the, the spacing, all the things that I intentionally included to make it so ADHD-friendly before. But it surprised me when I opened the box of paperbacks how much of a difference it would make to have it feel huggable, Like, it feels nice to the touch. You can flip it, flip the pages really easily.

2:28 It's not quite so intimidating anymore. it's thinner. they did a really, really nice job with it. I was like, "What's the big deal? It's the paperback. It's, like, the less good version of the hardcover, right?" But, it's, like, actually great. I'm like, I could see myself, even though I wrote the book, I could see myself flipping through the pages and highlighting them and, like, shoving it in a book bag and going.

2:48 It's, it's-- I'm hoping it'll end up in airport bookstores. That is, like, my absolute dream right now. Yeah. I mean, when I, you know, I was just thinking, like, I actually didn't reread the book for doing this, which is, I would not have expected that to be. But I was just like, "Oh yeah, that's funny how that works with books," where you're just like, "Oh yeah, this is, like, something that you can always reference again."

3:12 Yeah. Yeah. And so I knew that the, like, big hardcover book, I mean, it's always gonna be on my shelf. reference. It's great to just grab and flip through or whatever. But I, I, if I didn't, if they didn't send me copies of the paperback and I knew how cool it was, I would order the paperback. It's a different experience Yeah.

3:29 And I mean, it goes back to, yeah, the accessibility because, you know, I was like, "Oh yeah, I wanna take this with me. I want to be…" And I don't know, I always feel a little bit different about, like, yeah, like writing and highlighting in a hardback than I do in a paperback. That's the thing too, yeah.

3:43 It's the, the hardcover I love having it on my shelf. I love being able to pick it up and reference it, but the, the paperback is like, yeah, you could beat this up, right? Like you could write in it. You can highlight it. I mean, you can do it with the hardcover too, but the hardcover feels a little bit more precious to me, and the paperback is like friendlier somehow.

4:00 It's like, yeah, it's your buddy. Shove it in your bag, take it with you, highlight it. You know, I don't know, cut pages out of it. My daughter's in a phase where she likes to cut things right now, and part of what she cuts is stickers, which like the part of me that is ADHD and loves stickers is like horrified that like she has this amazing, adorable sticker and she's like, "I'm gonna cut it" and she cuts right through the middle and I'm like, "She's learning.

4:20 She's learning new skills. This is okay." but you could cut out pages, you know? You could… My publisher's gonna be like, "Why are you telling people to cut pages out of the book?" I don't know. Put it on your, put it on your fridge. You're like, "This is really helpful and I keep forgetting to do it." Cut out the page.

4:34 Put it on your fridge. Yeah, absolutely. That's, I mean, that's what's great about doing all of these things. It's just like whatever works for your brain is the most important aspect. Yep And so, that as well, so last time we talked you were six months pregnant. that's, the time you were, like, talking about, you know, how you didn't know how this was gonna change things.

4:55 w- h- right? "I- I'm sure nothing changed at all," and you just were… It just was absolutely just easy after that, Oh boy. Oh boy did it. I- So the book came out in January of 2024, the hardcover did, and the baby came out in February of the next month. And it was wild because I had just written this, like, epic guide to, like, all the things that I'd learned about ADHD over the last eight, eight years of doing my channel.

5:21 It was basically everything I needed to learn about how to work with my brain, not against it. And then my brain changed, because hormones, and I suddenly was useless. Like, I couldn't regulate at all. The tools weren't working for me. Even if I could remember the tools, like, w- I couldn't apply the tools.

5:40 Like, I didn't… It was so, so hard, and I, needed a second book. I was like, "Okay, I need to write an- another book." So, like, during postpartum, like, I'm like furiously just is writing a book called, like,

5:51Postpartum How We Get Dropped Off a Care Cliff and What We Can Do About It.

5:54 then I was like, "That's not my audience, though." Like, in true ADHD fashion, right? I'm, I'm just like, "Let me pursue a completely different everything." And then I realized, I was like, that's not the only time that I've had a hard time with a transition, though. really brutal, a lot more than I expected, but it wasn't the first time that my life had kind of fallen apart and I'd ended up in a really dark place, 'cause I ended up with postpartum depression.

6:16 And I'd ended up with, like, depression. I'd ended up once suicidal after my mom died. Like, I'd ended up in a really bad place before, and I looked back and it was like, it was always during a big transition. So now I'm writing a second book called, This Wasn't the Plan: How to Navigate Big Life Transitions With an ADHD Brain.

6:34 Yeah. I mean, that all sounds very hard. Like, I, I understand the depression aspects and stuff, and it is really all-consuming, and it is something too import- important to talk about with ADHD 'cause it comes along so often. Right. I mean, a- and it can be such a problem, right? If we're interest-based learners, and then the interest goes away, like how do you motivate yourself?

6:56 Like, e- everything changes. So, it was a cool, a cool experience, I say. I find experiences fascinating. I'm like, they're like Pokémon, collect them all. but it was, it was really brutal, and I ended up for a while in a partial hospitalization program where you could bring your baby, and they would teach you coping skills, which felt so embarrassing for me 'cause I'm like, "This is what I've done for the last eight years is like teach people co- learn and teach people coping skills."

7:20 And they're like, "And here is, you know, here's Deer Man, and here's…" I don't know, like all these skills a- and like use sensory toys. And I was like, "Yes, I know. I know." But there's such a big difference between knowing what to do and being able to do it, and we know that as people with ADHD. but I got to learn all of it in the context of being a new parent, and that was helpful Yeah.

7:40 It's really funny having to be, yeah, being in the position that we're in and then being like, "Oh, now I have to use the skills I talk about." And it's, some ti- days I'm like, "I'm beyond that," and then other days I'm like, "I'm really not." Yeah. Yeah, at which point I have to remind myself there's a reason why we started this in the first place, right?

8:00 It wasn't because things were going fine. Yeah because things were going so poorly that I'm like, "I should learn how to, not go so poorly." and there, I feel like when you have ADHD, there's this idea that you get to the end of the journey and then you just don't struggle anymore, right? Did you ever feel like that was supposed to be the case?

8:19 Yeah, there's been so many times where I'm just like, "Okay, and now I've figured it out." And that lasts, you know, a week, at most My partner says I tell him that all the time. I'm like, "Oh, I finally figured it out." He's like, "Uh-huh, tell me when you figure it out again next week." It's like, "Ooh, this new system is perfect."

8:39 And will never struggle again. Cut to, I'm bored of this system or my life changed and that system no longer works. That was another thing, and I'm talking about that in my next book. You, you design systems that work for you. You figure out what works for you. And, and for me, not everybody with ADHD, but for me in particular, doing laundry on Sundays and folding my clothes Marie Kondo style in front of the television was perfect for my life.

9:04 And so I'd spend like Sundays just chilling, relaxing, doing laundry. Like, because otherwise I would leave, I would start a load of laundry, and then I would forget to change it, and it would stay there for three days, and then I'd have to re-run it. I'd have to re-run it. And so I was like, "I'm just doing all the laundry on Sundays, and then I'm gonna fold it all Marie Kondo style so that during the week when I'm opening the drawers, I can find what I need," right?

9:24 And so that, that worked beautifully for me. And then I had a baby, and that baby grew into a toddler, and I would sit there… At first of all, like, I, like I don't have access to the washer and dryer all day Sunday anymore, 'cause like the baby's napping, right? Half the time, like in the area where I'm trying to do laundry.

9:42 So that was an issue. But the bigger issue was, as I'm folding laundry, she's unfolding it faster than I can fold it. And so I try, at some point I just tried putting her in the laundry basket. I'm like, "You stay there." And she tipped over in the laundry basket, and I'm like, "This is terrible." So Cass from Clutterbug came out, came down and helped me reorganize my house at some point, 'cause it was, I just needed the help.

10:01 And she was like, "You're not allowed to have a dresser anymore." I was like- Yeah … "But that is the one system that works for me, my organizational system of Marie Kondo style folding." I was like, "That's the only thing that works." And she's like, "You can't. It does not work for you anymore. You can't do it." And she's like, "Every time I go to somebody's house, every time I go to somebody's house and it's a hot mess, they fold their underwear.

10:20 You gotta stop it." And I was like, "All right, fine." So I swapped it out. I did. I swapped it out for bins. I got like an IKEA KALLAX shelf and bins, and I put labels on it and drew little pictures of what is supposed to go in, like shirts or whatever, so that my kid could help. And now she can help.

10:36 Now I get the laundry out and I'm like, "Cool, this is a shirt," and I hand it to her, and she puts it in the shirt bin. So she's helping instead of getting in the way. So that's the thing, like even if it still works for your brain, it might not work for your life. So that's, I don't know, that's the, I think the more frustrating thing about having ADHD is like it's, there's such a narrower band of things that will actually work for us, and then things change and it doesn't work for us anymore and we have to update our systems.

11:01 So anyway, all of this is, all of this rant is to say, if you are listening and you are still struggling with your ADHD, of course you are. Of course you are Yeah, 'cause n- it nev- there's… I don't know why my brain insists that, like, this is gonna be the system, because everything has always changed.

11:19 Like, there's never been, like, a five years of my life where everything… Like, I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is a consistent five years." So I don't know why I waiting for it, right? Yeah, like, why would I imagine something like, "Oh, well, I'm gonna build this system to last till I die." And I'm like, "No."

11:40 Yeah, Jesse J. Anderson actually has a good way of putting this. He says that he plans for the pivot. He's like, "I know I'm gonna abandon this system, so I'm gonna set it up so that when I do, I can take my stuff with me." Like, "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna make it so that I have to stick to this one system.

11:55 I'm gonna make it so that I can pivot when I need to." Yeah. It's like, how can I make this flexible enough so that it's not gonna fall apart if things drastically change? Even, not even drastically change, minorly change. Minorly change. It's now winter. Yeah. Well, and it, that's one of those things where I'm like, "Oh yeah, now my exercise routine's," like, I'm like, I'm not walking outside as much because it's raining all the time, and it's like, oh yeah, that changes how my brain works, and I should keep that in mind.

12:26 Yeah, the, the big one that hit me this year is my daughter went from fifth grade to sixth grade, and middle school starts 90 minutes earlier than elementary school Good lord, why? I don't know. it's like after-school activities and they like try to like s- have not as many people on the road all at the same time 'cause they don't have enough bus drivers for both things, so they…

12:50 But it is I get up at 6:00 now, so that's exciting I unfortunately get up at 6:00 too. And you know what I finally figured out? 'Cause my daughter's an early bird, and we are night owls. I don't know how this happened, but it happened. So she's up at, like, 5:30, 6:00 in the morning. so we're up at 5:36 in the morning.

13:12 And I finally realized I can get her up and get her ready and get her out the door, and I would be so exhausted. I'd be like a zombie trying to get myself to do my morning workout, 'cause that was another thing. I always, like, worked out in the morning so that I could get those, like, brain-boosting benefits of… You know, it was partly because I couldn't change my mind, right?

13:28 If I roll out of bed and I go straight into my workout, I'm not awake enough to protest. So that was part of it. But the other part of it was then I've worked out and I get to feel good about having worked out the whole day. My brain is working a little bit better, and it just wasn't working. I would get her out the door, and I would be so freaking tired that I finally went, "You know what?

13:46 Now is not the time to work out anymore. Now is the time to go back to sleep." So I finally realized I could get her out the door for daycare and then go back to sleep because my natural… Like, I wanna sleep. My circadian rhythm is such, and I talk about sleep in the book, how to sleep. There's a whole chapter on it.

14:00 But if you can, if you can make it so your sleep happens when your circadian rhythm wants you to sleep, that's better. that's ideal. Ignore all the people who are like, "You should, everybody should wake up at 5:00 in the morning so they can be more productive." I'm like, "I am not more productive when I wake up at 6:00 in the morning."

14:14 In fact, I am useless the entire day. So I now go back to sleep. I take my meds, and then I go back to sleep until 10:00. Nice. Yep, it's been the best thing that I've done since being a parent. It's just except, like, even if I have to wake up for my kid, like, once she's out of the house, I can go back to sleep.

14:31 Mm-hmm. Yeah. My, my wife is a big fan of the, after kids go to school I didn't know. I- see, man, this is why we have to talk. Like, I, I didn't know that that was an option. It took me like a good year to have to figure that out Yeah. I'm unfortunately of the type of person that napping does not happen naturally, so I'll just be like, I do know that it's still restorative to just, like, lie down with your eyes closed for a bit, but then the ADHD kicks in and I'm like, "Oh." I'm like, "Oh, now I'm awake.

15:00 I feel like I'm energized," and I stand up, I'm like, "Nope. No, I'm not. I am… that was a trick." Yeah, I can nap in the middle of the day partly 'cause meds, but i- I've noticed if, as long as I don't let m- as long as I don't wake up too much, we'll get… Like, I just do like zombie, like let my k- help my kid get ready routine, and then as soon as she's out, I'm just like back to sleep.

15:19 Um, I c- it doesn't always work, but I'm so sleep-deprived right now mom that like for now it works. But, you know, again, plan for the pivot. It's not always gonna work. Yeah, something will change. I mean, and eventually, eventually they start sleeping in more. my daughter was very much a I'm up at 5:30 type of kid, and now she is not, and w- which is super exciting that we have to get up at 6:00 now for school.

15:41 Hmm. Man, I feel like what we've just learned is like half of how to ADHD is just sleep. How do you get sleep? Man, I do have a chapter on that, right? It's, yeah, it's called How to Sleep. Yeah. There's so many things that get in the way. But I mean, we know that sleep is like one of the things that really exacerbates ADHD, right?

15:59 If we're not getting sleep. so I work with a researcher, and he's the one who contributed research, a lot of research to the channel, reviews all my videos before they go out, make sure that they're accurate. has now been upgraded to my chief science officer, and just make sure that all the science that I share is good, which I think is really important.

16:17 And, he helped me with the book as well, and he had done original research on ADHD and exercise, which is another big thing that can help our brains, right? And even he as an exercise researcher is like, "If you have to choose between exercise and sleep, sleep." 'Cause sleep is actually even more impactful.

16:34 It's more important Yeah, that's what I've always found is that, like, there's like all these pillars that holding things up and then like… But sleep is that one leg that if you knock it down, everything else topples behind it Right. Which going back to the book came out and the baby came out the next month, sleep goes away immediately, right?

16:52 So part of it was the hormone crash, and I did not appreciate how, how important estrogen was to my brain's function, Mm-hmm. until I didn't have it temporarily. And so the, the estrogen crash was huge, but the, the lack of sleep was a really big one. And all this, by the way, is happening at the same time as, like, the demand on your executive function rou- roughly doubles.

17:14 I didn't… You know what I didn't realize as a parent? You have to do everything that you're already struggling to do for yourself, but now you have to do it twice. So, like, you have to brush your teeth, but you also have to brush their teeth. You have to get dressed, you have to get them dressed. You have to make sure that you've got clothes clean, you have to make sure they have clothes clean.

17:31 Everything is double. Everything is double the work. I had no idea. Maybe eventually that changes Yeah, and I don't know if I'd say double, 'cause sometimes it's like triple because you like get them dressed a couple of times because they've decided to change their clothes or It's true. Okay, it was actually maybe quadruple the work at first because you get them changed three times because they spit up on themselves, and then also yourself, you have to change another time because they spit up on you.

17:56 It was so much work Yeah, and it's Just an insane amount of additions all at once, and I, I am amazed that of all the parents that have gotten through, raising an ADHD kid, or raising a kid while having ADHD themselves, I should say Well, it's both, right? It's you're raising a kid while having ADHD yourself, which is a challenge.

18:22 And then if you also have an ADHD kid, they're like, "Here, the more complicated version. Good luck." the things you're supposed to do for an ADHD kid are especially hard to do when you have ADHD. They're like, they really need consistency. You absolutely have to make sure that they get to bed on time.

18:35 consistent routines. You've gotta stay on top, like make sure they've eaten, what all the things you're supposed to do, right, that are extra when you have an ADHD kid. And you're like, "Who's gonna do that for me, though?" Like, "I'm struggling to do this." So that was the other thing that I had a hard time with as a new parent is, okay, I thought I would get bored.

18:51 That was my biggest fear. Like genuinely, my biggest fear is like I get bored of every new venture that I do eventually, and then I can just pivot or I can mix it up. And like you can't just n- do that with a kid, right? And so I was like, "What if I get bored?" And people who were parents were like laughing at me in the comments when I expressed that, 'cause they're like, "You're not gonna get bored." there's, everything's constantly changing.

19:11 There's so much new, there's so much novel when you have a kid. And that's been true, but, but where I was slightly correct is the routines. Like you've gotta have routines for kids, and I, like I can handle a certain amount of routines. Like a s- like routines help me be functional, but I also rebel against routines 'cause it's not how my brain nat- naturally works.

19:32 Like I, I can't… Like I feel too constrained at some point. So, so what I've had to figure out like ADHD-friendly ways to give my brain what it needs while still giving my kid what she needs. And so I've started doing something that I saw… I don't know, I saw on TikTok or something about this, or something.

19:47 But I saw a short about the idea of a one-day weekend, where one day a week, like the, the family has like a mini adventure. And so I've started doing just Saturday mornings, we go on an adventure. So, so there's like the routine of it, so it doesn't like throw my life into chaos. It's expected. We all know it's coming, and my kid knows it's coming.

20:06 But then we get to go do something that is something I've never done before or we've never done befor- before as a family, just to give myself like the novelty and variety. Because there were definitely some weeks and some days where I'm like, "I am doing the exact same thing this morning that I did yesterday morning that I did the da- the morning before that and the morning before that."

20:22 And even like the classes, I went and did music classes with my kid, and that was really fun and joyful. And my ADHD novelty brain is like, "Man." You know what it was like? having a kid was like map unlocked, right? Like I'd done all the maps. I'd done a lot of maps, I'd tried a lot of different things, and this was like a whole new world.

20:38 And I'm like, now there's music classes and like baby swim classes and all this cool stuff that like I've never gotten to do before. But then like the 87th week of doing I'm like, now I hate this." Like, what have I gotten myself into?" Yeah. Although it's great 'cause kids always love the new one too, when you're just like, like, "We're just gonna go to a new park.

20:58 We're gonna see what that's like." And they're like, "This is amazing." That is the most fun part, I will say, of having a kid so far, is, getting to experience their joy at seeing something for the first time. And it's, at first it's like, the first time I introduced my kid to a whisk blew her mind.

21:16 Just blew her mind. She loved it. Carried around this whisk for, like, a week. Like, oh man, so- it's so much fun to be around somebody who's experiencing so much joy and wonder Yeah, it's like setting up all the sensory bins and usually it goes well. You know what else helped unexpectedly? having a permanent body double.

21:34 Like, my kid follows me everywhere, or like I carry her everywhere. So I'm like, ah, you know, it- I complain about the extra work of I'm brushing my teeth and her teeth, but I have somebody to brush teeth with now. Yeah. that is brushing teeth very funny where I'll be like, "Oh, I'm gonna sit down and do something on my phone," and then I'll, like, have, like, some kid watch and start going over my shoulder, and I'm like, "I guess I should just do something instead." 'Cause they, they wanna know what's on my phone, and I don't want them to read my social media feed.

22:02 yeah, that, I don't know. I think that's maybe the hardest, part is I realized how much I do on my phone that I can no longer do on my phone. And so there were, there have definitely been some days where I'm like, "Is it nap time yet? Is it nap time yet?" Just because, like, I wanna scroll through my feed or I wanna play some game on my phone.

22:20 But it has really helped in terms of getting me off my phone, for sure. I have a little cute little phone box I found on online. I just found this wooden white box that you open it up and there's, like, room for the cords in the back, and you can plug in your phone and put your phone away. And it was really cute.

22:37 I started doing that, and my daughter started taking her little rattle phone and putting her phone in the box, and we would be like, "Okay, it's time to hang out with each other," right? Like, "Let's put our phones in the box." And we would close the door, and we would hang out. And eventually, my kid got smart, and she started telling me to put my phone in the box so that I could play with her Yeah, it is really funny, like how much they notice and then how much, like, I'm like, "Oh, I need to be modeling the good behavior."

23:02 Mm-hmm 'Cause more than what I say, what I do is what influence them, influences them the most Yep. Yep yeah. So what do you feel like changed for you the most? I'll turn it around on you. Like, having kids, what do you think changed? I mean, it was Really good in that the, like, structure it imposed on my life of like, especially once they started going to school and being like, "Okay, this is the time I have to work. This is the time I have to be…" 'Cause I don't want to be working while they're at home because that feels bad.

23:36 being like, "Yeah, you guys need to be… Like, I'm recording, you guys need to be quiet." And like, I'm like, I hate doing that. 'cause there's been a few times where I'm like, "Oh, things got scheduled weird and they don't have school today," and I'm like, I don't want to be the, the dad that's like, being like, away from my kids because I'm doing work.

23:53 That's, seems bad. And so, like, having this structure of like, "Okay, this is when I'm working, this is when I'm not working," and… 'Cause I always wanted to kind of set that up when I was, didn't have kids. But then I'd find myself at like 2:00 AM being like, "Oh, I have this idea. I'm gonna do this now," and Right?

24:09 Now I'm like, "I can't work till 2:00 AM. That's, like, I need to be up in four hours to get, do stuff with my kids. This is a terrible idea." Yeah a, a lot of what changed was being like reprioritizing my entire life. Being like, "Okay, this is what's most important easily," and, having the, weird artificial structure that actually, like, kind of helps me define my day and all that.

24:32 Yeah, I have a chapter in the book too called How to See Time. I'm pretty sure that I talk about that, about like needing pillars to your day. at, I got communicate about time Make time real. Oh yeah, time buckets. Yeah, time buckets are areas of your day, week, or month dedicated to certain types of activities, hobbies, admin stuff, deep work.

24:53 Time buckets can help us reserve space and time for the things we care about while giving us the flexibility within that time to do what we feel like doing. Yeah, if hobby night happens on Tuesdays, you don't need to know which hobby you'll feel like doing beforehand, but because you've set aside this time, it will feel real and make it less likely for you to plan some- to do something else.

25:08 Then I also talk about time pillars to prop up your day. Time can quickly become meaningless if you don't have anything to do or anywhere to be at a certain time. Time pillars are regular time-based events and rituals that add structure to your d- to your day and make it easier to use your time effectively.

25:21 Yep. Yeah Yeah, and it's, I mean, I find having, yeah, any kind of structure just, like, makes my ADHD life so much easier, where I'm just like, "Oh yeah, this, this." I can at least have these definitions and not… 'Cause, when, you have a completely free day and you're like, "I could do anything," and then it's like, yeah, there's just too much Yeah, it's too much.

25:48 I have a footnote about that. A lot of people think they'll be way more productive when they quit their day jobs, and a lot of times the opposite is true. Without regular time-based events to plan around, there's less pressure to get anything done at a certain time, so you just end up not doing it at all Yeah, ti-, I mean, I, that's one of the funny things is, like, the time pressure of being a parent and then that being like, "Oh, this has made me the most productive person I've ever been," which is bonkers yeah, right?

26:13 Isn't that funny? You're like, "I have objectively way less time in which to get stuff done, and I'm doing more somehow?" And it's like, yeah, because there is literally not time to procrastinate anymore. You can't. You actually can't. I don't know, maybe that changes, but definitely has been true with a toddler Yeah, I mean, even with the… Yeah, 'cause I have, 11 and eight right now, and it's different at this stage, but it's also, like, just it's all, it's just different.

26:41 There's, they have different needs, but it is, they still, you know, wanna hang out and do stuff, and it's just, school is just more consistent than daycare is. Is it? Okay Well, your, as we discussed earlier, less sickness in school than daycare. But, just, you know… I mean, I guess they have more… It's not, like, year-round, but it is, like, this is the d- you know, it's five days a week, these are the hours, and How do you deal with that?

27:11 Can we talk about that for a second? 'Cause I actually don't understand. I'm like, okay, it, like, at least daycare is year-round. how do you have a job that's year-round when your kids don't have school that's year-round? I don't understand how that works in society and I'm slightly terrified of that I don't know either.

27:27 I took a couple months off this year 'cause I was just like, "I'm… I gotta do other stuff." But we also had, like, camps and stuff, Yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. Yeah. I'm… it's just, it's been really clear, like, all of my tools that I have in my book are still really helpful, especially now that I'm, like, through that initial postpartum phase and I'm starting to get sleep again or whatever.

27:50 But it became really clear, like, how much more important it is to use tools when you've got kids, and also how there are tools that maybe are especially important to times of transition. Which it feels like when you have kids, that's the other part of it. Like, it feels like you're constantly in transition, at least maybe at, at the beginning, right?

28:12 Well, I mean, as I, as we were talk- like we have like the summer and then we have, you know, going from elementary school to middle school and like you keep… And it is, yeah, you still have all these transitions where like, yeah, now I'm waking up, you know, an hour and a half earlier, and that's been different.

28:30 Yeah. Yeah really frustratingly, like I actually am more productive waking up early. I don't like that. I, I'm like, "Oh, this is gonna make me have…" Like, 'cause I'm like, I do the same amount of work throughout the day, I just start an hour and a half earlier Oh, okay. But then you're done earlier too, right?

28:49 I still have a kid in elementary school, so I like… Oh It's, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'll just work till…" 'cause usually like around 3:00 is when I'd like normally like be done for the day, and so I'm just like, yeah, just, I just start earlier that actually makes me more productive. I don't really enjoy the fact that… y- 'cause you know like when you like do something and you're like, "Oh, this is good for my brain," and it's like, I don't wanna do this.

29:12 It shouldn't work. good for me. Like, this is working for me and I don't like that this is working for me. Is it because that means that now you just have to wake up early because now you know, now you know that it works now I have the, now, yeah, mental pressure of like, "Oh, I should because it's, i- if I wanna be productive, I should do this," you know?

29:30 Or like, you, when you like, I see this from people too, when they're like, "Man, exercising really helped for my ADHD." I do not like exercising still yeah. Dani Donovan was talking about that. she figured out a, a, a swim routine that really worked for her, and she was, like, really grumpy about "I don't like that, like, all the people who kept telling me to exercise were right."

29:52 Yeah. yeah, and I, yeah, I did not enjoy that following the advice to get up earlier to be more, more productive worked. I'm like, "No, you guys are wrong still. This just, it's just coincidental right now." Yeah. Well, it might be. Again, back to like it works for now. Maybe next year, not at all Yeah, I mean, it's probably going to be something where, yeah, this will fall off where I'm like, "Well, I've been more productive, so now I can just kinda do whatever during the day and I know it'll ki- kick up." I have that, mental thing where it's like, Well, I know I can do this later."

30:24 It's like a, it's just procrastination Yeah. Man, I never thought I'd be like, "Ah, man, I guess it's great that I can't be productive if I wake up earlier." Yeah. It is really funny where you're like, "Yeah, this is, this works out great." and I think that's Yeah. The figuring out what works is so hard, and then You, it's not always what you want it to be And here's the other part.

30:54 we were kind of talking about this before we jumped on, but it's great to be able to be more productive, but, like, to what end? And that's where I'm at in my journey right now is, great, I have all these tools and I'm using them, but are they getting me someplace I actually want to be? Because more productive for the sake of being more productive, like, that's actually not the end goal.

31:16 And sometimes I think as people with ADHD we forget that the point of using a calendar isn't to use the calendar, it's so that we have the ability to do the things that are important to us and make time for the things that we care about, right? It's not, the measure of success as to whether or I am doing this right is I have used my calendar religiously every day for a month.

31:38 Like, that's not the point. The point is this is a tool that you're using to build something that you want to build. So what is it that you wanna build? this is, you know, planners, n- no point, like, any of this stuff, like, all of these tools, all these productivity tools, Pomodoro timers, whatever.

31:53 I've got a million productivity tools in my book, but what is it that you're trying to produce? And, like, why? What's the point? so I'm, I don't know. I may be in an existential phase of my life right now of, I, I got really good at all this and in some ways I'm kind of looking back at my life before I had all this stuff, before I knew all this stuff, before I had all these tools, and I'm like, in some ways I kind of liked that life better.

32:15 And I think it's maybe because I've empowered myself into being able to live a life that's not as aligned with, like, how my brain naturally works. So that's another big thing that I'm thinking about right now is like, okay, like, yeah, I can get really good at time management and schedule my time and time block and all of that, but, like, I actually really valued being able to wander, having time to wander, able to have the time to fall down rabbit holes and, like, people just…

32:42 People weren't relying on me to the point where I couldn't do that, and so I could do that. And so I'm kind of… I talked a little bit about it in the book, but I am kind of intentionally building that back in now, the things that I really valued that I accidentally optimized out of my life by being, like, by getting better at ADHD, or getting better at productivity.

33:02 Yeah, I know something I've talked about on my show a lot, and I'm still not good at, is scheduling time for fun. Hmm. because it… I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'll just…" I'm like, "Oh, that'll just slot in when I need it." And I'm like, "That's not how that works anymore." It is not how it works at all. so- yeah, somebody told me about this.

33:22 When they first try to get a student to use a planner, they said they always put, "Okay, like what are the parties you wanna go to? Are there like football games you wanna make sure you make it to or whatever?" And they have them put those things in first because then there's the incentive to use the planner.

33:36 And I'm like, that's actually really brilliant and it's something you can do even if you've been using Google Calendar or whatever you've been using for a long time, is put the fun stuff in. And my- somebody that I work with actually taught me a cool trick, which is put your vacations in. She's like, put 'em in and put 'em like way in the future so that you're like, 'That time isn't real yet.'" Right?

33:53 Like, take advantage of your ADHD, like now or not now, time in the future doesn't feel real. Cool, it's not real. Give yourself a two-week vacation, right? You can always eat into that time later, but y- but it's a lot harder to be a month out and be like, "I need a two-week vacation," and be able to give yourself a two-week vacation.

34:09 That is really hard. But if you're like, "Five years from now I'm gonna take a two-week vacation," right? Like, put it in your calendar now, and you can reserve time for it and you can plan around it. And then maybe you get to that point and you're like, "Oh, I have planned my time in such a way that I could actually take a two-week vacation.

34:26 What a concept." Yeah, when I first learned about, like, some yearly planning things, it was like, yeah, time your time o- like, schedule your time off first because if you don't, it won't happen. Yeah. I feel like if people get anything out of this, this podcast, it's g- right now, just do it right now.

34:42 Go schedule some time off for yourself. If you're like, "I don't have time to do that," like look far enough in the future that you can, and schedule the amount… Schedule an amount of time off that feels like luxurious and excessive to you, whatever that is Yeah. I mean, and I think this is a also very good, call-out for, yeah, even, you know, with all the tools and stuff we know, this is still difficult to do.

35:05 Like, it feels like, "Oh yeah, I have all the tools and I know how to do this, and I know I should be scheduling this in advance," and do Yeah. Yeah. because you also have to remember to do it. externalizing everything is, like, one of the best tips that I ever learned about ADHD. Get it out of your brain.

35:20 But what I realized is remembering to get it out of your brain also needs to be externalized. Yeah. And then Post-it Note of, like, is there anything you're holding in your brain that needs to not be there? I just need to- I'm gonna make it right now Yeah, I, I've been working, with like a new, to-do list system that like lets me like just brain dump stuff out and then sort it into folders and then, you know, he- helps like remind me about it like when I like be like, "Hey, did I ask about this kind of thing?" So, been really nice to be like, I can just…

35:54 I have one document on my phone where I just write everything, and everything from there just gets put into my to-do list relatively well. Cool. I fi- I find that I still need a s- like a, um, manual input. Like I will rebel if something gets put onto my to-do list that I didn't put there, so I need to do a lot of it manually.

36:13 I use some Asana right now, which is really helpful, where I'm like, "Okay, let me sit down and plan my day." And then it, it feels like it makes it easier to do it. It walks me through step by step, like, "What do you wanna get done today? Here's the stuff from your calendar. Do you wanna rearrange stuff?

36:27 Um, this is too much. Like caution, unrealistic workload. Bump some d- tasks back that can wait." And I'm like, "Okay," I do all that, and it's like, "Does this look good?" And I'm like, "Yeah." "What's, what are the obstacles in your way? Oh, right, I should think about that. Great. Send it to Slack, get started." but even that, like, it's the most helpful tool that I've found, even that I'm like, I had to make it automatic where I open up my computer and it pops up right away, some Asana pops up right away.

36:49 'Cause I won't remember, even though I know how helpful this tool is, I won't remember to open it. I won't remember to actually do it. And so yeah. Externalizing and automating, man, is like the two big Yeah. And it's really, I've been thinking about this so much too recently. Like, okay, where do I need to, like, add the friction to my systems and where do I need to take it away?

37:07 'Cause like, yeah, I need to have it, like, automatically open, but I can't have it automatically fill everything in on my calendar. Right. Right 'Cause then I don't know what's on my ca- I'm like, "Oh, I forgot about these things that just automatically got in here. I didn't really, like, read over that."

37:21 That's why actually I've resisted setting up a Calendly. I know that I should. I'm at the level where I should have a Calendly and have, like, people be able to put themselves on my schedule, but I yet just because I'm like, I don't know. The idea of opening up my calendar and there's things on my calendar that I didn't put there, it's still like…

37:38 It's a level of control I'm not willing to give up yet. Yeah. I have mine, like I… Yeah. Well, I have it so like you can't put anything on this week. Okay. Oh Yeah, so it's like nothing I could-- I think like I have like five days out you can't schedule anything. Oh, that's really smart. I didn't… See, this is so cool.

37:57 It's so nice talking to you. yeah, ca- it's similar to the vacation stuff, right? Where it's like, it's far enough out that it doesn't feel real, so like, okay, somebody's on my calendar in three weeks, that's fine. it's not like I get to work tomorrow and I'm like, "Oh, I'm talking to Steve. I didn't realize that.

38:11 Okay, let me adjust." Yeah, I, might ha- I, I used to have some… I used to be very loose with my calendar where I'm like, "Oh yeah, I can meet, like, basically any time." And I'm like, "This is… No, I don't want this." This is no. Oh, boundaries. That's another thing. Since becoming a parent, I've gotten really good at boundaries.

38:31 Mm-hmm. I was not at all good at boundaries before, and now I am. Oh yeah, it's w- being both for my kids and with my kids. Like, "Yep, this is the boundary. No more. This is where we stop." Yeah, that's the other thing. I- we're just at the beginning of that phase 'cause she's two and a half now. And so I'm just at the beginning of the point where I'm having to tell her, "I don't like that." No, and she's learning.

38:56 she's testing the boundaries. She's like, you know, she's doing this, and I'm like, "Okay, that feels nice. I don't mind that." And then she goes like this, and I'm like, "I don't like that." I was like, not love slaps." And I'm like, I'm getting very good at knowing where my boundaries are with my toddler.

39:10 And it's so funny 'cause my partner has very different boundaries, and so he'll, like, try and jump in and, like, protect my boundaries because he, like, assumes they're where his would be. and so he'll, he'll see her doing this to me, and he'll be like, "Nope, don't, don't hit mom. I can't let you hit mom." I'm like, "Let me be in charge of my own body." I, like… But it's not, I mean, obviously, like, bodily autonomy is a big part of it.

39:29 How much bodily autonomy does she get to have? How much bodily autonomy does, do I get to have? 'Cause there's a lot of, there's just a lot of challenge there, right? I'm like, oh, bodily autonomy is really important, and also, like, nope, you gotta let me brush your teeth, kid. Like, you gotta, I gotta brush your teeth.

39:44 but it's helped me to really understand boundaries. one of the biggest things that I learned is that there's, like, you can respect your kid's bodily autonomy until it comes to safety or care tasks, and it's, then it's non-negotiable. It's like, "Yep, we always wipe our face after we eat. That's the rule.

40:01 Like, I know you don't like it. I will count, I will do a countdown, but we always wipe our face after we eat." like, she could be screaming, and I'm like, "We always wipe our face after we eat." Eventually, Eventually, she started counting down for me. She's like, if I start wiping her face, she's like, "Five, four." I'm like, "Yeah, five, four, three, two, one." And I'm like, oh man, this works, right?

40:18 Like, for me too, I can give myself the option to opt out of things, unless it's, like, a safety or a care task. I'm like, "I gotta brush my teeth. I get that you don't feel like brushing your teeth right now, Jessica, but you gotta do it. Do you wanna do it standing on one leg like a flamingo?" Like, so many of the tricks that I use for my kid work on me.

40:37 It's embarrassing, but it works. Yeah. I mean, there's so many, I mean, this is a universal design all over again. Everything that works for kids often works for adults in amazing ways, where you're just like, "Oh, this actually makes this enjoyable." Yeah. One of the best is there's, all the books on emotion regulation in kids, such a great hack.

40:58 If you have ADHD, just if you struggle with emotion regulation, go buy yourself some kids books on emotions. it's, it's incredible. there's one book in particular, Dr. Color Monster's Emotions Toolkit. it's great. It's about this little girl's visit to Dr. Color Monster, who's a, a feelings doctor, and he's, like, helping her sort through these big feelings.

41:18 There's some really good evidence-based tools in there, and then in the middle, he has an emotions toolkit that's, like, all about emotion regulation tools, and it, like, opens up. There's so many tools in there. Like, this is… Everyone with ADHD should read this book. It's for, like, five-year-olds, Yeah, especially if you've got like a alexithymia or something where you're just like, "Oh yeah, I didn't realize this is how emotions were supposed to feel."

41:38 Yeah, my partner has alexithymia. It's really common, in the autistic community. And, like I think men also tend to have it more often than women too. but it's been d- it's been a real challenge, and so he's actually really benefited and he's like, "I'm gonna get this for a lot of my clients. This wonderful book." that was another thing I talked about in the, in my book, is how to feel.

41:57 And I called it how to feel for a reason, because I think so many of us have been sent messages about our feelings being too big or wrong or we're too sensitive or whatever, that maybe like we actually shut down our feelings. And that was true for me for a while, where I lost touch with my ability to feel because I knew that I wasn't supposed to be feeling this, this way.

42:20 and so getting back in touch with your emotions, I guess that's the other thing. If anybody takes anything away from this podcast, I hope it's that like the things that we are taught to do growing up, unless, unless you're like very young, right? I feel like the schools and s- and grown-ups probably getting better at this now.

42:38 But wh- when I was growing up, it was like, "Don't cry or I'll give you something to cry about," right? Like we learned do not feel things. Your big feelings are a problem. and there's a difference between your feelings and your behavior, right? Like, and now I'm understanding to differentiate, you're allowed to be mad.

42:55 You're allowed to be as mad as you want. You're not allowed to hit, right? Like what you do with your feelings can be a problem. But if you just d- believe that the feelings themselves are a problem and you tamp them down and bottle them up, what would happen is like, I would just bottle all my feelings up and then I would explode, and I'd be like, "Yeah, see?

43:10 Anger's bad. I shouldn't be able to… I shouldn't be angry because like you're angry and you scream at people, or you like throw sh-" or whatever. And it's like, no, if you catch that anger sooner, then you can be like, "I'm mad," and you can scribble on a Post-It note and deal with it, right? Like what… It's an, it's actually really important to be able to be in touch with your feelings is one of the big things that I learned for the book.

43:30 And then am learning every day with my toddler, like relearning. It's reinforcing every day. Like, "Oh man, this stuff…" That was the other thing, like a lot of the stuff that I have in the book, I was like, "Yeah, theoretically this would work." and then I was thrown into the trenches with a kid and I'm like, "Oh, it really matters that this w- Oh, it works.

43:45 Okay." I'm using this, I'm using these techniques every day now, of like name it to tame it, you know? at like five times a day I'm like, "You're really mad that you can't have a popsicle right now," and she's like throwing herself on the floor having a tantrum about it. And like, but telling her to calm down does nothing, right?

44:01 And telling ourselves to calm down is not helpful either. Yeah. Well, and it's also super helpful in being l- 'cause often we, I hear so many people talking about how they're like, you know, zero to 100 on their emotions, and often it's just they haven't noticed the buildup at all. Right. Right. And so yeah, that's one of the big ones is like, can you notice it when it's lower?

44:22 Like if on a scale to, from one to 10, like what… I had a therapist tell me this once. I don't remember if I put it in the book or not, but I had a therapist tell me once, like I told her I wasn't allowed to be mad because ma- like that's bad. That's, anger is a bad emotion. Like, you shouldn't be angry.

44:36 and I would regularly talk, try and talk myself out of my angry feelings. Like, "Oh, well they didn't mean it," or, you know, I would talk myself I, on at some level I felt like I was gaslighting myself of like, I'm trying to convince myself that what happened didn't happen , just so that I wouldn't feel angry about it.

44:51 And so she was like, "What level anger are you allowed to feel?" I was like, "What do you mean?" She goes, "Well, on a scale of one to 10, if one is like mildly annoyed and 10 is like violent anger, like where, what are you allowed to feel? Like, you know, three is this, four is this." And I was like, "I guess like I'm allowed to feel frustrated."

45:13 And she's like, "Okay. It's like a four." And I was like, I thought about it. I was like, that's a bit of a cop-out 'cause I'm frustrated at myself usually. So like what level of… I was like, "You know what? I'm allowed to feel irritated. I'm allowed to feel a five. I can feel irritated at people." And she's like, "Great."

45:26 So we started there. And then m- a few months later, I was like, "I don't know if I'm making any progress in therapy. Am I making any progress in therapy?" And she's like, "Well, the last four sessions, you've come in saying you're mad about this and you're mad about that, so yeah, you're making progress.

45:38 You're allowed to feel mad now." And what was wild is ever since I started being able to say, "I am mad," I stopped acting on the mad. I stopped being passive-aggressive. I stopped like blowing up at people. I stopped, I stopped waiting until I was an eight, nine, 10 to express any anger at all. I was catching it sooner, I was expressing it sooner, I was doing something about it sooner, and it made a really big difference in my emotion regulation.

46:01 Yeah. I mean, that same kind of thing has been super helpful for me for communicating with my kids where I'm just like, "Guys, you've got to quit, stop where you're at now because I'm getting to the point where I'm not going to be cool anymore. You've got to…" And being able to like expl- just be like, "Hey, I'm gonna be actually really mad in about five minutes if you guys keep doing this."

46:26 Like And that works, 'cause I've just started doing that and I'm like, "I don't know if this is good parenting. is it It's been fanta- I was just like, "Oh yeah, just telling them how I feel," they go, "Oh, I didn't know you felt that way." But, not in those words, but like often it, often it helps. It doesn't always help.

46:43 Sometimes they're like, "I'm gonna double down," and then it's like I like challenge accepted. Let's see if dad blows up. Yeah. so just started doing that. For a while it was like I did a lot to regulate my own emotions around my kid, and like stay calm and step out of the room if she was, if it was really difficult.

46:59 But yeah, lately I have been saying, "Hey, I'm starting to get frustrated," and she's actually adjusted her behavior accordingly. It was… I forget, I've been reading a ton of parenting books, and one of the parenting books I feel like mentioned it, that like tell your kids how you feel because otherwise you've, you become kind of an unsafe person if you're like calm, calm, calm, exploding at them, then any time you're calm they're like, "Are you gonna explode at me?"

47:22 Like I don't know. So having that little warning system I guess is important Yeah. One, I'm just like, "Man, I should communicate my emotions with everybody." Like, like, 'cause I'm like, "Nobody can read my mind." Like, I should just be like honest with like, "Hey, this is doing this and I'm, you know, this is making me upset." I haven't actually started doing that with like adults yet, 'cause it, not that many adults that I want to talk to are like making me mad.

47:50 But it is something where I'm like, "Oh, why would I hide how I'm feeling?" Yeah. Yeah All you mad on this podcast, tell me. This is great practice. So far it's been delightful. But we are coming up on time, so I was wondering if there were any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with? yeah, actually, I, I mentioned earlier that the-- that there's no, like, you get to the end of the journey and you don't struggle anymore, which might feel discouraging or depressing.

48:19 Like, well then what's the point, right? And here's the point, and I talk about this in the book, but what I realized after I got over the fact that I was really disappointed that I couldn't suddenly never struggle again, was that I did do something really important by learning how to work with my brain, not against it, by learning all these tools, by listening to the podcasts, by, by reading the research studies, by putting this information somewhere I could actually find it again.

48:41 What happened was I did close the gap. There's something called the self-discr- or there's something called self-discrepancy, which is the gap between who you are and who you think you should be. By learning this stuff, I closed the gap from both ends. I understood that who I thought I should be according to neurotypical standards was not actually true, so I was able to adjust the expectations of what I thought I should be capable of or what I thought I should be able to do.

49:06 But I also was able to give myself enough tools and strategies that when I needed to, I could implement those and achieve what it was that I wanted to achieve. And it's a little bit like, okay, I'm still gonna struggle, just like a printer might still run out of paper or need ink or whatever, but now I can read the error codes in my own brain and understand what's what strategies I need, and it's so much more effective to read an error code and be like, "Oh, printer's out of paper.

49:33 It needs paper. Let me get some paper," than to bang on it and be like, "What's wrong with you? Why aren't you working?" It was so incredibly empowering. It was so profound to understand why I'm struggling and know what to do about it. You don't have to not struggle in order for it to make a really big difference in your life and your happiness.

49:55 You just have to know why is it that I'm struggling and what can I do about it. Awesome. Yeah, that's some great advice there. And thank you so much for coming on the show Thank you. I really appreciate you having me. Thanks for sticking with us all the way to the end, and thanks again to Jessica for coming on the show.

50:13 If you wanna check out more of Jessica's stuff, be sure to check out her YouTube channel, How to ADHD. But before you go, let's go over this episode's top tips. One, a system can be a great fit for how your brain works and still stop fitting the life you're actually living. When something that used to work stops working, check what changed around it, be it your schedule, responsibilities, environment, or available support.

50:40 then look at what was useful about the old system and what needs to change to fit your life that you have now Two, try putting something you actually want to do on the calendar before everything else fills the space. That might also mean scheduling more time for rest and fun than feels strictly necessary, because if we leave those things to whatever time is left over, there often isn't much left.

51:04 This is something I've talked about before, and I'm not particularly good at myself, but making space for it deliberately gives that time a much better chance of actually happening. Three, progress isn't about reaching a point where everything suddenly becomes easy. Part of it is adjusting what you expect from yourself, and part of it is getting better at recognizing which tools and supports you need.

51:27 So when you're struggling, instead of making that struggle a verdict about yourself, ask, "Why is this hard right now?" And, "What can I do about it?" All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at HackingYourADHD.com/contact.

51:46 And if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page at HackingYourADHD.com/318. And if you'd like even more Hacking Your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter, Any and All Distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, what I'm watching, and everything in between.

52:08 I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is gonna vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to HackingYourADHD.com/newsletter to sign up. You can also check out our Patreon at HackingYourADHD.com/patreon. It's a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of Patreon get the same stuff, and right now you're getting access to behind-the-scenes content and early access to all the episodes.

52:36 So if that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to HackingYourADHD.com/patreon. And you can also check out our Discord at HackingYourADHD.com/discord. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find at YouTube.com/@HackingYourADHD. And finally, if you'd like another way to support the show, the best way to do so is to tell someone about the show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them.

53:01 Just click the share button on your podcast player. And now for your Moment of Dad. My grandfather had the heart of a lion and also a lifetime ban from the zoo