Zibby Owens

0:01 I am Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York. And you're listening to, in these times, many Jews have struggled to find the right words to explain what it means to be Jewish at a time of rising antisemitism and renewed questions about identity and belonging. My guest today created a book that does exactly that.

0:26 Zibby Owens is the editor of the powerful anthology on being Jewish now, which gathers 75 writers, thinkers, and cultural voices reflecting on what Jewish identity feels like. The result is something rare. A chorus of Jewish voices wrestling honestly with these questions. Zibby founder and CEO of Zibby Media and host of the Beloved podcast totally booked has built one of the country's most vibrant literary communities.

0:55 From publishing to podcasting to her own bookshop here in New York City. Zibby is also a mother of four with two headed to college. And yes, like all Jewish mothers, she worries. Zibby Owens, welcome to in these Times. Thank you. Thank you for having me, rabbi. I really appreciate it. I told you just, uh, off camera, uh, you're one of my heroes.

1:24 Uh oh. Really so impressed with your work generally and also recently, uh, with your focus on the Jewish community. Thank you so much. Before we get to the Jewish community, I just want to talk to you about your love of books and books in general and what the role of books is anymore in modern society.

1:45 Just tell us, uh, you yourself are an author. Uh, you're a publisher. What is it about books that attract you? I have just always loved reading. I love losing myself in stories. I love feeling deeply. I'm a super sensitive person and so if I see, you know, an ad on TV that is really emotional, I'll be crying.

2:07 PS there was a, a really emotional Disney cruise line ad during the Academy Awards. I dunno if you saw it. I was like, bawling. Anyway, books to me do that in spades because you are inhabiting the lives of the characters and, and the, the story feels so real. I feel like it's happening to me. And so I just find that feeling second to none, that immersive emotional connection to others.

2:31 Putting myself in other people's shoes. And it's one of the only things where I stop worrying about everything else and everything else kind of stops, and I can just focus on that. Do you think, uh, modern technology and AI has impacted in any way on writers and readers? I think some authors have talked about using AI for the research help.

2:57 It gives them, not for the writing, but when they're doing historical novels or um, they wanna know, okay, I am, I'm setting this story in, I don't know, Georgia, what are they eating on a, what do people eat on Saturdays? And I dunno. So I think people are using it as a tool I think at this point. The writing is still not as good as authors, but I will say I did at one point try it.

3:24 People were like, try to see what AI will do. If, if, if it says like, write in the style of Zvi Owens. And I was like, Ooh, okay. How would they even know? But let me give it a shot. And so I did. And I have to say like, I'm like, can my brain really be reduced to whatever algorithm they just use to recreate?

3:42 My voice. It wasn't perfect, but like, wasn't so far off. I mean, I have to say like I think Chap GBT sometimes has good ideas, if you can even say it like that. So, um, I wouldn't be surprised if people are using it more for plot points, organization help. How should I organize this? How, how should I structure it so maybe I can just make good writing better.

4:03 But of course there's the fear that it could destroy writing altogether and nobody will ever write a book again. So somewhere in the middle of that, what do you think? I actually am worried. I, I think, uh, writing is becoming a, uh, lost skill and a lost art because by definition writing requires a lot of focus and a lot of concentration.

4:27 And I worry about, in part, I, I see it myself too when, uh, you know, I, I have some time and I wanna scroll to see what I'm missing and it. It captures you and I, and I fight against it. You know, I'm not one of the new generation that grew up with this stuff as if it's an appendage. Um, so I, I, I actually worry about, about the ability.

4:52 To produce original thinking, which requires a lot of thought, a lot of concentration, and the thing I worry about with respect to AI is there is actually nothing original on ai. It's the compilation of everybody else's ideas. I have to like, not freak out or it will keep me up at night. I, I have to try to see the positive.

5:15 What brought you into publishing, by the way? I mean, we have a lot of publishers out there. Why did you think you need to step into the publishing arena? I dunno what I was thinking. Um, I had been interviewing a lot of authors for my podcast, which used to be called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books and is now called Totally Booked.

5:34 I had interviewed hundreds and hundreds of authors at this point, thousands, and I kept hearing some of the same things over and over again about their publishing experience, not what they had hoped it would be, and. I was also publishing their essays in anthologies and in, um, you know, during COVID I would like publish essays for everybody to read on my website.

5:54 And I love working directly with authors and helping, you know, propel their work into the world. And it's almost like. The thrill of the pre-book because, um, you know, I love recommending books once fully formed, but if I could like get them even earlier when they're like just coming out of the author's mind, I find that really interesting and I wanted to see if there was anything I could do to make the author experience a little bit better, a little more hands-on, a little, um, more of a, you know.

6:24 Boutique experience and, um, get the books out that I was so busy recommending, could I recommend them even earlier? And also, I was an aspiring author at the time. Now I am an author. And the idea that you could get to the end of the, of the, you could get to the finish line of getting your book out into the world and then have like a precipitous drop that just like broke my heart.

6:46 So I thought, well, I mean, I'm not gonna change the world here, but could I change the lives of. A dozen authors a year, like, could I try? Um, and I, so I thought about it. I planned it for years and got a great team together and, um, it's been about five years now and we've published a bunch of books and it's been really interesting.

7:06 I've learned so much about the book, world Authors, the business. I do have a business degree, like I am interested in starting up things and running things, even though it drives me crazy most of the time. So I, I, I wanna bring, uh, you, us to the Jewish issue. I'm, I have your book in front of me here on being Jewish now, which you published.

7:28 I did. And you felt an urgency to do it quickly after October 7th. Just tell me about, about the impact of October 7th, because it obviously propelled a whole new dimension to your life that I wanna, I wanna talk to you about, but. Do you remember where you were on October 7th and what you were thinking, what your reactions were?

7:51 I was traveling, uh, for a book event with my husband. We were at some place, like some random hotel somewhere, um, in a big conference center. And I remember walking out of the bathroom and he was just standing there looking at his phone and he is like, honey, there's been a huge attack. In Israel, and I was like, well, there's always something going on in Israel.

8:09 And he's like, no, no, no, this is different. And we both stood and looked at the phone and I just gasped and I, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And my first thought was that I was so worried, 'cause my dad was going to Israel that week and I wanted to know if he was there. Turns out he was scheduled to fly out two days later, so he wasn't there.

8:28 But that was my first thing, was to call him, make sure he was okay. And then, oh my gosh, I just. It was just, there are no words. It was unspeakably awful. And of course, the horrors that came next. Were not only what happened as it unfolded, and we learned more and more about the atrocities and the just despicable horrificness of the whole thing, but, but the reaction of course, here and the rest of the world to it was also devastating.

8:59 So I think it was this one, two punch of like, wait, I've been trained my whole life, like. I take instruction very well. Like I went to Hebrew school, I studied the Holocaust. I was also kind of obsessed with it, and I've watched like every movie and um, read a million books. I've been ready for the never again.

9:18 Like I've been ready watching the signs, like 1930s Germany. I've been like primed and ready to identify when this time happened and I was like, okay, it's happening. Now's my time to speak out. This is what every Seder has been about is like, you know, like we have to be aware and we, and um, and it was happening in not only that, but like, nobody cared.

9:37 Not only did nobody care, it was like people. Uh, were condemning us for caring and making us the bad guys. And, and so everything just kind of flipped upside down. I couldn't believe it. I was really afraid that we would be going down similar paths that we've been down before and I was just, you know, I don't like it when things are unfair.

9:58 I don't like it when any group is really persecuted, particularly mine. Um, and I've never. Really been afraid of speaking out, certainly not for the last, like 10 years. I said what I thought right away and I supported Israel, blah, blah, blah. Um, then I started writing on my substack about it. And just as more and more betrayals happened, as more antisemitism happened, as more unthinkable things in the literary space began to happen.

10:25 Authors who are friends of mine. Turning against Jews like right and left bookstores saying they wouldn't carry my books anymore or the books I published because of my support of Israel. Like just things over and over, getting on author blacklists, losing all these followers, all of this stuff kept happening all year.

10:42 Um, but at the same time, I was making new Jewish friends all over the world, right? People who were emailing, thanking me, who I was reaching out to, who I was taking inspiration from, and after. You know, by the following June, I was just so frustrated. You know, I feel like the shock and grief was sort of wearing off and I was getting more into the action mode.

11:06 And after an attack in the north of Israel, um, I don't know if you remember, there was like an attack with the boys on the soccer field. And I just sat there that I was there by the way. I, I visited, were you, it was a Drew's village in the north of Israel. Yes. And I wanted to pay a condolence call.

11:21 Oh. I went there with a group of, uh, colleagues, rabbis. Oh my gosh. Uh, so I know, and I spoke with, uh, the parents. You know, there was one father there whose daughter was killed, and he, he went over there. He saw her. He knew immediately that she was killed, but there were other kids around there who were wounded and he was a medical doctor or um, uh, some kind of, uh, medical professional.

11:46 And so he told us this story about how he attended to all of the other kids that he could. Then he went and began to mourn for his daughter. It was really a, oh my gosh, unbelievably moving place, and we were right there on the soccer field. Well, that attack. Effectively changed my life. It was the final straw in a way.

12:06 And I realized that no matter what I did as like one random person would ever really make a difference. And I thought maybe if I gathered with all these other authors who I had co-founded artists against antisemitism with and had been in a group chat with all year, maybe together we could make a difference by speaking out.

12:24 I also, you know, one premise of the book is just how could people hate us if they really got to know us? Like. We're just like, we're really awesome and we're, I think about that all the time too, right? Like, what the time? What do they want? Sometimes, you know, I direct it to God. God, what do they want from your people?

12:44 Yeah. That's really how the book came to be. I just had this realization. I thought, what if I team up with all my author friends and do an anthology? I had already edited too. I knew how to do it. By this point. I had my own publishing company. I could publish it and I would donate the profits to artists against antisemitism, which I did and continue to do, and artists against antisemitism.

13:04 Is that your. Your organization? Or was that founded by some? Well, I was one of the founding authors of it. I'm no longer, you know, actively involved, although always a supporter. Um, when was that founded? Uh, right after October 7th. Yeah. So it was as a result of October 7th. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:21 And this book is a result of October 7th too. Yes. You wanted to publish dozens of short Yes. Essays. From people representing a broad spectrum of mostly the Jewish community or is this entirely the Jewish community? It's entirely the Jewish community. One person converted. Some people consider themselves Jewish.

13:42 Um, there are many Holocaust. Descendants, four rabbis. Wish I'd known you, then I would've accepted immediately. Oh. Because as I said, you're one of my heroes. Oh, thank you. But I tried to get a, a, a good cross section. There's some Israelis, uh, Australians, uh, a lot of Americans, Orthodox reform, conservative, uh, it really ran the spectrum.

14:07 There's a black Jewish man. There's, you know, I tried to get. A lot of opinions and, and what were you, what were you looking for? What was the urgency and did you get outta the book what you wanted? I love that question. Yes, I did. I got outta the book. What I wanted, the urgency was I felt compelled to share what we were going through.

14:30 'cause I found it so insane that all of this stuff was happening to us in modern day. Right under the noses of so many people who might not be haters, but could be allies and weren't, and all of this was going on, and I wanted not only to let them know, but also to share with all the Jewish people I've been meeting all over the place and say like, you're not alone because.

14:57 At, at the time I called it sort of that we were all sitting Shiva on our phones, right? We're just like individually mourning. And in the beginning I feel people were a little afraid to gather and it was just, we didn't know what was happening. And the, the main comfort eventually that I think everybody took was in gathering in some way and relating to each other, sharing stories, connecting.

15:22 And I wanted to use the book as a means of connection. To get us through this terrible time as if it was, I mean, it, it is a grief based experience really. But I also, part of my assignment to everybody was either writing about what it means and how it feels to be Jewish now after October 7th, or Jewish joy, and I said to everybody, no politics allowed.

15:46 I did not want this to be about politics at all because, you know, 75 people, I can't even imagine. You know, everybody has lots of views. What I wanted was to strip away all the extra stuff and get down to who we are as humans and our, our feelings and our fears and, and relate that way. And I didn't feel I was getting enough of that anywhere.

16:06 I wasn't reading enough of that. So I organized the book and edited it and then launched a substack at the same time where we still publish. I find it hard when I hear a story about somebody. Not to empathize, and I was hoping other people would feel the same way. You know, that's really very profound.

16:25 Uh, I was in Israel a couple of months ago and uh, I met a, um, one of the country's foremost experts on trauma. Mm. And you know, half the country is traumatized in one way or the other. I'm sure some from the immediate. Circle of people who were victimized or families of, uh, soldiers who were killed in, in the war, and then so many millions of other people who were, who just completely traumatized by the ongoing war that's now two and a half years old, including as we speak these, these, uh, very hours.

17:01 He said something really profound that I kind of knew, but I never actually. You know, put it all together. He said, to recover from trauma, you need that trauma recognized by other people. And I think that was one of the most painful things after October 7th, is all these alliances we had. And I've been working with, you know, interfaith groups and progressive, uh, and liberal, uh, groups for most of my career.

17:30 And this sense of betrayal, which fed the unrecognized mourning on our part and unrecognized trauma, I think penetrated so deeply in people that it caused some people, you know, like some people, as a result of October 7th, they. Kind of said, I want nothing to do with any of this anymore. But I've met so many other people who were sort of disengaged or distanced from Judaism, and this tended to fortify them for the reasons that you mentioned that this trauma was unrecognized except by our own.

18:07 Everybody else seemed to have betrayed us, and it's not literally everybody else, but so many people when we needed the most. Were either silent or they were actively opposed on the most basic humanitarian level. They didn't believe or they didn't wanna believe that uh, Israeli women were sexually assaulted when they were the very ones who said women should be assumed to be telling the truth.

18:34 It was really quite shocking. Yes. You mentioned in the book world that I think you were surprised or maybe even shocked by, uh, the reaction. Just tell us more about that. Exactly what you're saying. I felt the same thing and throughout the literary world. It went right to, she's a Zionist, she's a Zionist racist, like she's, you know, pointing fingers and in such a brazen way, I mean.

19:04 Agents will now put like no Zionist clients or something. I'm like, really? How are you allowed to do that? Isn't that against the real agents or, or crazy, marginal people. I mean, not like the biggest, but on agency websites, just like go through some literary agencies and some authors will, some agents will say that it's insane.

19:25 Well, what's their complaint against you? You say you're, oh, you're a ionist. What? What? Because you identified with people who were brutalized. What? What was their complaint about you? I took a particularly public stand early on when I ended up pulling my sponsorship from the National Book Foundation, national Book Awards because, um, I had heard there was a collective action being planned for that ceremony, a pro-Palestinian action.

19:53 And when I asked the organization about it, they said that they did know that something was being planned. They weren't sure what. No matter what, they weren't gonna do anything about it, even if it was vehemently anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli. And so I said I couldn't be part of it, and I pulled my sponsorship and it got leaked to the press and twisted around, of course, that like I didn't believe in a ceasefire or whatever.

20:12 I was like, I didn't even talk about a ceasefire and like, what is going on? And anyway, it became international news at the time. This is November after the attacks of how the conflict was affecting the United States literary world. And I became sort of persona non grata, if you will, for all the people who.

20:28 Were talking about us as genocidal, maniacs or whatever. Anyway, um, I became sort of a, a temporary symbol of that and uh, I think that's why people tried to, I don't know, cancel me or whatever you wanna say. Do you regret that is looking back, is there Not at all. I think honestly, anybody, well, I mean, maybe not, but it seems so clear what the right thing to do was.

20:53 I didn't hesitate. Really, I mean, I talked to my business partner, but I was like, we have to pull out of this. Like, there's just no, you know, I didn't wanna bring my team into an event that who knows what would've happened. I mean, it turned out nothing really happened. But, um, I couldn't take that risk, especially during this time.

21:12 Like, why walk into a hostile environment and not only just walk in, but I'm gonna sponsor something that. Might produce something like it's one thing to go, it's another to like subsidize it. I'm not gonna support that. So that's really, I think, how I got looped into all the chaos early on. Um, but again, the support I received from the Jewish community was outstanding and I have felt.

21:40 Deep conviction and unwavering certitude about everything I've been doing in this arena from day one since October 7th really happened. Um, since the first post when people started, you know, I started having to block everybody. I never knew I had to defend the Jewish people personally. Uh. Until I did, and then it became very, very clear.

22:05 I don't know if you know Rabbi Raphael Shore. I had coffee with him early on when I was so frustrated that like nothing I did or said would ever make a difference. Like I wasn't able to change anybody's mind at all about antisemitism and anything. And he kind of laughed at me. He is like, yeah, this has been going on thousands of years.

22:20 Like, and he's like, but your job is not to. Eliminated antisemitism. Your job is to unite the Jewish people. And so I took that very seriously and I think about that all the time. It was a slight redirection of my efforts and I'm like, how do I do that? How can I do that? And so I just continue to do events and meet people and it's been this amazing experience with all of our contributors going out and trying to tell our stories and, and unite instead of, you know.

22:54 Condemn or whatever so many other people are doing, there's something empowering about defending our people. Right. It adds a dimension to their life. That's an interesting way to say that. Especially if you know in particular, I mean, you can't really do it unless Judaism is important to you, but it reminds us, number one, it connects us to the very source of Jewish life going back thousands of years.

23:21 It connects us to something bigger than ourselves that we're fighting for a cause that we believe is just and righteous. And what we often find, I wonder if, if you found this, that while we lose some friends and supporters and are disappointed by some people, uh, we gain a lot on the other side. Mm-hmm.

23:43 When we learn a lot and we gain a lot of friends. Allies on the other side who thirst and welcome for, you know, people of principle. Yes. But I, I don't wanna suggest that speaking out and trying to defend the Jewish people or create a sense of community or any of the things, or the book or whatever is so that.

24:08 I'm not like using this cause to add a dimension of meaning into my life. My life had plenty of meaning already. I was very busy. I had a lot, I felt very strongly in what I was doing to help authors, and that gave me a lot of meaning in my life. So I wasn't like searching about for a platform and, and glommed onto this.

24:26 And I do think there are some new, you know, Jew flus, for lack of a better word, who, um, you know, sometimes miss the plot of it all. Um. In, in the posting of, of the things around it and not the thing itself. But I will say, anytime you find something that you are passionate about and that means something to you and you feel you can make a difference, yes.

24:50 That is an empowering feeling, even if the difference is tiny. Could you tell us more about, about the reaction, uh, from people? Did, did people, for example, refuse to come on your podcast? Did Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they did. Oh yeah. People who were already booked or, or people who were already booked, canceled in the beginning.

25:12 Now a lot of people who would otherwise come on or have come on in the past have not come back on. It's fine. I mean, I have no trouble getting guests. I, I get amazing guests and, um, and all of that. But yes, I mean, one person I picked for a book club pick, and they said. No, like we, we, we do not want to be your book club.

25:34 Pick like, okay, fine. And the reason of that for that is what? That you support Israel. Well, it just seems so obvious because then you go on their Instagram, which I should have done, to be honest, originally. And they're posting all sorts of either anti-Israel stuff or sometimes they're Jewish. But just feel very, very differently from me, um, about.

25:56 Real and whatever. I mean, it's, it's just so crazy. I mean, the whole thing is, is a little bit nuts. The world is a little bit upside down. Is it a real thing that, uh, Jews are finding it harder to publish books and sell books, and then we've heard stories about. Uh, there were book tours and they would do a reading and the bookstore would say, listen, we can't commit or guarantee your safety is, are those, are those real stories?

26:32 There are so many stories. Yes. It is not being, not only is it not being blown outta proportion, I don't think it even gets enough attention. Um, and a lot of authors aren't even reporting these widely. Um, they don't. Necessarily need anymore a attention for negative stuff. People won't be on panels with them.

26:51 That happened to very publicly at a, at a book festival that they didn't wanna share a stage with a Zionist. And so, you know, they canceled the panel. All sorts of authors signed petitions about not wanting to work with Israeli publishers, uh, or have their books translated into Hebrew. Um, someone just told me yesterday how, for their translation rights for their book.

27:16 The, the standard form says we acknowledge that many authors do not wanna be associated with Israel, but nonetheless, here is the offer. And I just got an email from an agent who was dealing in foreign rights, like the foreign rights for some of the books, and sent a mass email about the London Book Fair.

27:35 And at the bottom of the email she was like, sorry, I, you know, I couldn't make it given the events of the Middle East, but. Rest assured all eyes on Gaza and hoping da da and just like a whole thing. I was like, what? Like you're sending us potential fiction submissions. Do you know like this? What does this have to do?

27:52 Why are you even mentioning this? Um, so. I think it's, I think it's hard. Um, it's not impossible. A lot of great Jewish writers have had great books come out and I, I really think we need more of that. Not just books that pitch us as victims, but as main characters with main character energy and who happened to be Jewish.

28:12 I mean, I wrote like a fun novel where the main character was Jewish. This is before October 7th, because of course she was like, that's me, I'm Jewish. And her kid was studying for a bar mitzvah and the Bar mitzvah. Tutor played a huge role. His dog was named Dano. Like I just, I thought it was funny.

28:29 Like this is just, you know, that's funny. So I think we just need it where it's not like this is a novel about Hanukkah or this is a novel about historical novel about the Holocaust. Just like write really great stuff like, but just make Jewish stuff be a part of it. It's hostility and animosity towards, uh, everything Jewish and Jewish authors.

28:53 It didn't basically exist Preoc October 7th, right? It, it's a whole Octo post-OC October 7th phenomenon. It must have, but it was hidden. It, it couldn't have just appeared, but. It wasn't socially acceptable, I guess, to talk about. Um, I think it's ramped up if it was a two before and now it's a 100, you know, it's a big difference.

29:21 But I think it was there before. I felt like all these authors, I helped out so much for so long. I would hear that they were, you know, just disparaging me behind my back as being a Zionist and whatever. And I'm like, really? You know, so and so. What if I am? Yeah. Israel deserves. To exist. You know, it must have been there.

29:44 Obviously antisemitism has roots from thousands of years ago. This is not a new thing. You know, I wrote an essay in 2018 about the Pittsburgh synagogue bomb. I mean, I wrote an essay in two, in 2002 about everything going on in the Middle East. Like I, this is not new, it's not news, but it has just.

30:04 Escalated as you all, as everybody knows so much. Really? Yeah. I totally agree with that, by the way. It's just, it didn't for it to erupt in this way on sundown, on October 7th and intensify over the last two and a half years, it didn't come outta nowhere. It was, it was there, yes. But it was suppressed.

30:23 Yes. Can I add, you're a deep thinker. I, I've, and I've, I've thought about this a lot and I haven't really found satisfactory answers. Why did the murder of 1200 Jews the worst mass massacre since the Holocaust and the taking of 250 hostages old people to nine months old? And this reaction against the Jews and against Israel immediately erupted, even before Israel responded.

30:56 It was like Israel was still for the first three days, fighting off terrorists in its own territory. Mm-hmm. Have you asked yourself, what was it about October 7th that lifted the lid? Well, it was a very calculated planned attack on the part of, you know, radical Islamic jihadists that had been planned for a long time.

31:20 My husband and I were, uh, associate producers on the film October eight, which if you haven't seen you, you have to see 'cause it was all about how this. Horrific influence and planning was taking advantage of sort of marginalized communities to start slowly putting out imagery. It was a gradual brainwashing, which was deliberate, and it was intentional.

31:45 Like it wasn't just a coincidence that it happened on October 8th. It was a, it was somebody else's plan. And I feel unfortunately that we keep falling into this. I have to think, you know, with recent elections and everything like this, these things don't just happen. They are planned. And then when the execution so swiftly happens, we're all left reeling being like, wait, what happened?

32:10 Who was just like, what is going on? There are a lot of people planning who want to destroy. Us destroy Americans, destroy the Jewish people, and um, they were ready to go. They had it all ready. It was like when you have a book and you send a, a press release ad and you've got all your emails in your inbox ready to send, you know, like, boom, okay, this happened.

32:35 Click send. It was just like that. The attack happened. Boom. It was all ready to go. Emails drafted, boom. Let's destroy the world. You mentioned you have, uh, two kids who are going off to college this year. First of all are, are you worried about the atmosphere on universities and where do you think that came from, that reaction?

32:55 They weren't, they didn't start as Kamas supporters. I don't think. They, some was something about the college atmosphere that brought all of them together in this insane attack against Jews and Israelis. You know, I had a luncheon for Noah TPI years ago, probably in 2001, and at the luncheon she kept telling all of us like, you have to pay attention to the BDS movement on college campuses.

33:21 That the boycott, divestiture, all of that, like there was a concerted infiltration, honestly of, of all college campuses with these. Groups and they were spreading right before our eyes, but none of us cared enough. And even after this lunch, we were all like, oh yeah, that's terrible. We should pay attention to that.

33:40 And then we forgot. 'cause you move along with your life. So, um, uh, again, this is years in the making. This isn't just that people started having an issue while they were on campus. This was. The groundwork was set years ahead of time and had been perpetuated. Um, not to mention the fact that it's been in the schools.

34:01 And so some people by the time they get up to college, have had this in their, in their school curriculums by teachers without oversight who have been like slowly getting this into schools. It's all really terrifying to be honest. I wanted to ask you about that. I mean, your, your kids went through a high school now and some of them are, uh, one, you said you had a child in middle school.

34:20 I think you I have two. Two middle schoolers and two high. Two seniors and two high. So they've gone through, uh, you know, New York City public, uh, public or private schools, and. Are you seeing disturbing things or did you see disturbing things in the curriculum or in the general tolerance for hostility towards Jews?

34:40 I feel quite lucky with the three schools that my four kids are at. Um, there have been incidents where I've reached out to multiple headmasters about specific things, and I'm not afraid to reach out nicely, you know, and just say like, Hey, did you know this happened? Or whatever. Um, but for the most part.

35:01 I have felt quite lucky with our schools, um, and have really good open communication with, with them. Um, so, but I know that's not the case for a lot of other schools and some public schools, and I just had a friend. Like, pick my brain for like an hour about which schools are really the best in New York for Jews now, and should, should we pick Jewish Day School or go to a private school?

35:26 And there's no right answer anymore. There's, I mean, not that there ever was, but um, so am I worried about my kids gonna college? Like I'm worried about my kids all day, every day anyway. I'm a Jewish mother. I mean, I always worry. Um, I feel they are empowered to. Represent who we are. They're they're warriors.

35:47 They care. And I actually think that's been one plus side, if you will, of this whole time, is they are so into being Jewish and defending the religion, and they know how important it's to me and, um, you know, and, and our whole family. I mean, it's so they've really picked up the mantle. Um, I'm not worried they'll be attacked.

36:11 I know that I'm worried more that. They'll have to walk past protests and, you know, all that type of uncomfortable stuff. But I'm hopeful at least, and this was, you know, a question we asked when we were looking at colleges about the tenor on, on campus and all that. So I'm, I'm hopeful though. I mean, I'm always hopeful they'll be okay.

36:34 Uh, Zibby you, you graduated from Harvard. Right. Did you, did you see the little, the, the recent survey, uh, about Jewish kids at Harvard and it just came out Actually, I went to Yale undergrad and I went to Harvard Business School. So, no, I didn't actually see a, a survey recently. So there were the, the recent numbers are that 7% of, uh, the Harvard student body is, uh, Jewish and that's the lowest number in generations.

36:59 And, uh, there are lots of factors. Since you've just gone through this process about kids selecting universities, do you think that Jewish kids now are more sensitive to selecting a university that has at least a reputation of being more sympathetic to Jewish students? Yes, I do. I mean, I was just at the A DL conference.

37:23 The A DL has a report card for all universities, and I know that was important to us as we were touring. You know, what grade did this school get versus others? Um, I don't know. What are you seeing, rabbi? What do you think? I saw those numbers and you know, I'm constantly thinking about how. There's been sort of a honeymoon from history since the end of World War II for the Jewish community.

37:45 That seems to be ending at this point. Mm-hmm. And when I, when I read the latest numbers about Harvard, I of course immediately thought about pre-war Harvard and their troubled relationship with the Jewish community. And I'm, I'm very worried because, you know, these, these cultural institutions, the media, the legal.

38:08 Establishment, higher education, the book industry, these are so influential in setting the tone mm-hmm. For society. And it is the arena where most American Jews, uh, travel. Most American Jews by far consider themselves liberal and have supported liberal institutions and, uh, liberal political candidates.

38:34 I worry that something really fundamental is shifting, the earth is shifting beneath our feet, but it's so early in the process that I can't, I can't foresee how that will impact on our lives, and even more importantly on the, on the life of American society. Mm-hmm. Because what an ironclad law of history.

39:00 Is that what starts with the Jews, never ends with the Jews, and it is a barometer of something very rotten mm-hmm. In society that's getting worse. So that's what, that's what I worry about. And, um, let me ask you this, how do we fight back against this? You, you mentioned earlier that, you know, do people actually change their minds and Well they do change their minds because you said there was a.

39:25 Generational campaign to change people's minds about Israel and it seems to be working. That's true. What can we do now at the beginning of this new phase? I think one of the challenges is that we are a bit outnumbered and for every TikTok account that, that somebody is subsidizing, I don't think we are counteracting.

39:49 The negative message is enough. If a hundred accounts are being funded on the other side to post anti-Israel, things like what are we doing on our side? Who are we funding? Are we funding enough people? Are we fighting back? And there just aren't as many of us. So I guess the answer that was roundabout way of saying.

40:08 I think we could fight back more on social media, and I know some organizations like Unpacked Media is doing things like this. I know that, um, the a DL is taking a, a big stance against this and working with not only the social media companies, but now even the AI models to make sure that these don't happen.

40:24 So I think one thing we can do is support organizations that have taken this on as a big fight and help them. I think awareness, like I, I think a. Calling it out when you see it. I think reporting at the conference, the head of the A DL was like, we can't fight when we don't have the data and if you don't report in, we don't have the correct data.

40:48 So I think instead of people. Suffering in silence or sweeping something under the rug or saying, oh, this one instance, like, well, I, where would I even say anything? What would I do? And whatever. I think reporting it and getting it on the record, even if you do so anonymously, is really important so that we get the full picture.

41:06 We all know it's bad, but we need the full picture, um, to be able to make change based on data getting involved so that we have. A strong united community that can be nimble and fight back. Like I really want there to be talking points and um, unified messaging and, uh, I want everyone to feel equipped to at least have a two minute conversation.

41:36 Someone when they try to shoot down our, the right to exist. And that's one of the things artists against Antisemitism does, is, um, you know, work with organizations that gives college students the, the vocabulary and the tools to speak back. I think supporting. People who are speaking out or doing cool Jewish things and uplifting them.

41:55 And it doesn't even have to be something Jewish related. Like if there's a, a Jewish novelist out there who wrote a fabulous thriller, like post about them, follow them, like support people who are doing the things, um, that makes society really great. And also that show our values, like I think continuing to live.

42:17 According to our Jewish values is so important. Like, we're not gonna sink to the level of the, the tactics used against us necessarily to, to live purely. And, um, I feel like I'm sounding a little didactic here, but, um, uh, you know, we have to live with integrity and be who we are as people. Here's my final request of you.

42:41 Give us some uplifting sentiment to conclude this, uh, conversation. I actually do feel quite hopeful because I have met the most amazing people as I've gotten to know the community, and I am just struck time and time again by the resilience of the Jewish people. I mean, we are so strong and have weathered every attempt to get rid of us, and guess what?

43:05 We are just not going anywhere. Like it's just not gonna be done. So everyone can try and they can try in horrific ways, and that's terrible. But as a group, no, we're not going anywhere. Owens, thank you for giving us this time. You're, uh, an inspiration to so many of us. Keep up the great work and, uh, we'll continue to look to you for support and uplift and inspiration.

43:34 Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. I'm always inspired by people like Zibby, by those whose lives are transformed by an acute moral crisis, and unlike so many others, refuse to turn away as Zibby told me she didn't intend to be. Nor does she see herself now as some kind of moral crusader.

44:01 She's a lover of books and ideas. She hosts a popular podcast called Totally Booked. She believes in stories that can shed light on and elevate the human condition. She helps authors bring their manuscripts to print and gives voice to their talents. But as so many of us, October 7th changed her, the savage brutality perpetrated on thousands of innocent victims and the moral depravity of those justifying the victimizers so offended her sense of right and wrong.

44:33 That while it might've been easier to turn away, she couldn't. Now, it's one thing for rabbis and Jewish professionals to speak out. It's our vocation, it's our job. But when people like Zibby stand in the breach and put themselves on the front lines of a moral struggle, knowing what the cost will be, it is profoundly inspiring and deeply moving.

44:58 I've seen this phenomenon over and over again in the past two and a half years. I have met the most exceptional Jewish young people, astonishingly courageous students who simply wanted to get a university degree and move on to fruitful careers, and who suddenly found themselves inside the boiling cauldron of hostility from fellow students and even faculty while administrators, the so-called adults in the room fell silent in fear.

45:25 These amazing young people persisted, driven by their sense of moral probity and fortified by their Jewish identity. It's the classic Jewish story Throughout our history, some have distanced ourselves from the Jewish community in the face of hostility. Others have found something in their Jewish identity that they didn't realize.

45:45 They had some inexplicable connection to our people, and even a renewed or newly discovered perception of God. We're now in the Passover season. I hope that as we tell and retell the story of our people, it bolsters our courage and reinforces our commitments to our people. I hope that the challenges and anxieties of our times create a fierceness of Jewish identity in you that may not have been there before.

46:17 After all, it's this very will to live Jewishly with meaning, purpose, and dignity. Previous generations held onto in the face of obstacles much greater than ours, that led to our being here today. As Zibby proves everyone can do something, everyone can push back. Every act counts, every word makes a difference.

46:40 And even if you think to yourself, how's this one little action gonna change anything? Remember your goal is not only to repair the world. It is also to repair yourself by defending your principles, values, self-respect and dignity in what is often a contaminated moral environment. You will be stiffening your backbone.

47:04 You will prove to yourself that you can stand up to adversity. There are values worth fighting for and sacrificing for, and that it is your responsibility to participate in the fight for justice, righteousness, and decency. Until next time. This is in these times.