Courtney Barnett Writer’s Block, Scrapped Songs, and Why Some Tracks Just Won’t Leave You Alone

[SPEAKER_00]: It's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, welcome to another edition of Kyle Meredith with it's the interview series presented by WFPK at WFPK.org Consequence and the Consequence podcast network.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We've had some great guests dropping by lately, including Natalie Allen-Lind, who was here to talk about the Yellowstone Spinoff Dutton Ranch, and her upcoming horror movie Halloween store. [SPEAKER_02]: We hung out with Paul Bettany and will sharp to discuss the televised version of Amadeus, Jenna Malone, who's in the burrows on Netflix and has a new album, Sean Colvin, Peter Capaldi and Chris Jumbo getting into the second season of criminal record on Apple TV.

[SPEAKER_02]: We hung out with the cast of the audacity, Barbie Ferreira and Devambostic, they star in the new movie, Mylin Kicks, Jason Muse of Jay and Silent Bob Famous is here, Joe [SPEAKER_02]: Amanda Pete James, Marsden, just an example of what you get when you subscribe to the Kyle Meredith with podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: As me, Kyle Meredith, today catching up with Courtney Barnets, one of the great songwriters of the past 15 years or so, she's back with a new record called The Creature of Habit. [SPEAKER_02]: And, and I tell her this every single time she drops into the show it's my favorite thing she's done and it really is this now becomes my favorite thing that she's done It's such a great record and we're gonna talk about dig it into the years in between it's been a little bit longer than a usual between records for her And some of that has to do with a writer's block but also she moved to LA [SPEAKER_02]: Ellie is not the story of the album, but it's definitely a backdrop as she'll tell you.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna hear about songs like Mosley Patient and Site Unseen, especially those two how they almost ended up in the trash can before she, uh, portia gave it one more college try. [SPEAKER_02]: And kind of with that stuff in mind, we're going to talk about some of the subtle callbacks in her catalogue.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a few songs on here that I think are lirical references to some of her earlier songs. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll skit her take on this as well and working with flee and Katie Crutchfield of Waxahatchy. [SPEAKER_02]: They're both on the record. [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get those stories and a whole lot more.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into it and discuss the album creature of habit. [SPEAKER_02]: It's Kyle [SPEAKER_03]: Hi. [SPEAKER_02]: How's it going? [SPEAKER_03]: Good. [SPEAKER_03]: How are you? [SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about creature of habit. [SPEAKER_02]: It's your back. [SPEAKER_02]: You got new music.

[SPEAKER_02]: People talk like it's been you know, because you did like some covers and stuff in between. [SPEAKER_02]: There was the instrumental record, but it is like this is the first big concrete thing that we're hearing and it's my God. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's never been a record of years that I haven't liked.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I say that every time we talk, but I especially love this record maybe more than all of them at the moment. [SPEAKER_03]: So, thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: That's so, that's so kind, it's so nice to hear. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, hopefully, hopefully, you know, the idea is that each album just gets better.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that's always the way that that's the home. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, that's that's that's not always a given and that's hard to do and it's you know our relationship with how we hear new music, especially as we get older and so when you find something that you really connect with, I mean I feel like it's a really big deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how does this record happen and I know you've been talking a bit about this because there is this period of writers block or whatever and then you moved to Los Angeles like how important is that to the story of this record. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's hard of it, it's part of the backdrop to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's probably not like the story that I would tell. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not really what the album is about at all, but I guess it's what I found myself, a people have been asking me about a lot. [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I mean, I think I just, [SPEAKER_03]: I found myself in a new place and that obviously adds to the strokes of the stories, I guess, and the kind of the backdrop to what's going on.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's all connected. [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Have you settled it? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you've been there for a while, a few years now, a couple years? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I've been moving around a bunch around Los Angeles and out to Joshua Tree and back again, and yeah, it's been a really nice time.

[SPEAKER_03]: I really have loved these last few years, just meeting new people, seeing new places. [SPEAKER_03]: It's been really nice. [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like you're part of a scene there? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's it's kind of a big jump for anybody. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I've made some great friends, but not really.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess I don't really feel that yet. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And I will say me asking that question is a little bit projecting Los Angeles's great, but when I go there. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, because, I mean, I'm not saying anything new. [SPEAKER_02]: It's such a scattered city, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, like, I got a New York a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: And you can, you can just feel like you're part of a neighborhood instantly. [SPEAKER_02]: And I never get that from LA in that way. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I wonder, like, if you're born there, it's one thing, but to be someone who moves there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, that's like how elusive is that sense of community. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I know you mean, I mean, I think it's better, I think it's just, um, even, you know, my situation like I have moved house and suburb multiple times since I've been here, so I haven't really given myself the chance to find those things, you know, I think if, um, if, uh, if I was in one place [SPEAKER_03]: something a little bit more or like made connections with different people but it's hard to know but I know you mean I mean it's a big city, a big sprawling city but um yeah I don't know I've had the kind of I feel grateful that I have moved around a fair bit in my life and I get to kind of experience these different pockets of communities and and uh yeah kind of you know it's you learn a lot

[SPEAKER_02]: So here we are, as you said, that's not what the album's about. [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, I have fallen prey to the quotes just the same and then it impressively says to make it part. [SPEAKER_02]: But there is a part like we get into the record and it's right at the end, and it's like another beautiful day.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see that title here that song, and I think LA, that's like, is that a track that comes from that? [SPEAKER_02]: Because, and even like, [SPEAKER_02]: Like, they're these moments, mostly patient, that song. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know you're aching for a brighter day. [SPEAKER_02]: And then you get another beautiful day.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you hear the songs talking in that way? [SPEAKER_02]: Or am I looking for threads that aren't really there? [SPEAKER_03]: That's a nice connection. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's no right or wrong answers, you know? [SPEAKER_03]: I think, I mean, a lot of the out, [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no, all of the album was written here in California between those places.

[SPEAKER_03]: There were moments where I was traveling and I was working on songs elsewhere. [SPEAKER_03]: But no, I guess that wasn't the intention like the kind of bright sunny LA, [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and maybe it was slightly more metaphorical, I guess, but I don't know, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter because I want people to kind of interpret it however they, however, however the work's best for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this might be too direct of a question for that then, but like, like, if you take those two songs, like, who were you when you wrote those songs? [SPEAKER_02]: Were they close enough that it was a similar version or do you hear, or like, are you different people? [SPEAKER_03]: like this album probably well I don't know I think I've kind of changed a little bit from this beginning of beginning writing the album and finishing or releasing the album yeah I feel like even just that kind of exercise of doing writing that [SPEAKER_03]: writing it and recording it, I kind of learnt a lot and changed a fair bit within myself within that time.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of hard to say, but you know, it's a similar person, I guess. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, with the songs then, I mean, like, and I'm going back to what I've read about, you like, not instantly having the songs come to you, maybe in the way they had in the past, which I think every artist goes through.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, you kind of trust that it'll come back eventually, but even reading about songs like Site Unseen, which is a fantastic song. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, Katie's on, Katie Crutchfield is on it, but like you, is it right? [SPEAKER_02]: Like you recorded [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so how do you know when a song's worth it? [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that one's specific, but maybe like how do you know to keep hitting like it's there, I gotta get to it. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, I think sometimes it's just a gut instinct. [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes it's such a roller coaster of emotions because there's definitely moments along the way where I'm like, this is not worth it and this is not gonna work.

[SPEAKER_03]: and I'm wasting my time and what's the point and all this stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know, there's something in me that brings me back to it. [SPEAKER_03]: Send him with that song, mostly, patient, you know, in the lead through that. [SPEAKER_03]: in the trash can, but something brought me back to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess I don't know the answer, but I do know that I just have to trust those feelings when they're there and kind of follow follow up or follow through. [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_02]: Are there songs that do have gone on the trash can to never see the light of the day again?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, like I guess what I was asking is like are you are you are you stubborn to the point where everything has to work at some point, you know? [SPEAKER_03]: Fine, well, there's part of me that's like, I try to keep the best list and like, archival footage of demos and stuff that I can.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's sometimes it's, I definitely lose track of things, but I try to keep them, because there's definitely a part of me that's like, oh, come back to this. [SPEAKER_03]: I'll come back to this one one day when I have some spare time, and maybe then I'll unlock it. [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes that is true, like maybe sometimes an idea needs 10 years to figure it itself out.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was just reading because Neil Young announced his new record today and there's three songs out that he found from 1963 that is finally... [SPEAKER_02]: that he's finally recording. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's the thing, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, because I think we hear that story a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a song just eventually needed to find its time. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I love that. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't know how he even keeps track of all the stuff that he has. [SPEAKER_03]: And you, yeah, you hear artists who, like, [SPEAKER_02]: show of entire albums and forget about them and uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh uh, uh uh, uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, when maybe when people are just prolific and just like going for it, I feel like I could never forget an album because it takes me so long, so much, my whole life gets wrapped up in it for years. [SPEAKER_02]: Do you ever, you know, so this is sort of similar that I was talking about with mostly patient and another beautiful day.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you ever intentionally do callbacks in your songs to some of your older songs? [SPEAKER_02]: And there's moments in here that remind me of that, that's why I'm asking, and a lot of my favorite artists do that to sugar plumb, like I'll learn to breathe again. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's, you know, it's like, oh, I'm a gardener, you know, you have trouble breathing, you have trouble breathing in.

[SPEAKER_02]: And even stain your lane a little bit, I thought was maybe a different perspective than nameless faceless. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, in some way, you know, it's songwriting about songwriting, you know, yeah, like do you ever intentionally do those callbacks or is it or again, this is just the way I'm hearing it.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, I really love that you see and hear those things. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that, um, [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it happens sometimes. [SPEAKER_03]: I think sometimes, I don't know how intentional it is, but when it happens, it's nice. [SPEAKER_03]: And I personally love when I'm listening to someone's discography, discography, and I can, you can almost, I wish I had an example of this, but, [SPEAKER_03]: I love it when you can hear a song, and you can hear where the other song came from.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like Leonard Cohen, I often feel that, or even what's his name. [SPEAKER_03]: Harry Nielsen. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, sometimes there's just, it's like, it's the song before the hit or like you can hear, you can hear the idea for the next song and I personally love that and you can kind of hear the progression of their writing almost or just the, the songwriting journey.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure I have stuff like that that I don't even notice, but even something like the song's same on this album, it's almost an interpolation. [SPEAKER_03]: Is that the right word of my old song Elevator Operator? [SPEAKER_03]: It's like there's this one chord progression that only [SPEAKER_03]: Basically, that's the idea for the whole song of Sam.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that kind of came out of rehearsal where the song was slowed down. [SPEAKER_03]: And it just became a whole new song. [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, it's, I've never spoken about that because I'm like, I don't know if anyone finds that interesting, but I find that interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's, you know, where is someone Neil Young a minute ago, like the end of sentiment girl.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and he does his throwaway riff right at the end. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I don't know, and I'm like, oh my god, like that riff and itself should be a song. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I get exactly what you're saying because I wanted him or anybody. [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny, it brought up nearly young twice.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've not been in nearly young mood right now, but it just happens to be there. [SPEAKER_02]: But like, exactly, like, I think that's fantastic that you were able to take that and be like, oh, right, that's like you actually were present enough to say that can be something on his own. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and it's such a cool way to look at songwriting as well, because it's almost, I mean, it's a similar kind of mindset to sampling.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, oh, there's this one cool bit in a song. [SPEAKER_03]: What if I could turn that into a whole song or a new idea? [SPEAKER_03]: And it's really interesting, because it's like, why, why settle for this one thing when there's so many kind of things blooming out of the one idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, some artists like Springsteen or Counting Crows, like they build a universe out of their lyrics where the songs do all reference each other. [SPEAKER_02]: You're sort of doing that musically. [SPEAKER_02]: You're building a musical universe, you know? [SPEAKER_02]: So that's, that's fun, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's so. [SPEAKER_02]: You can say that you meant to do that. [SPEAKER_02]: But meaning to do that the whole time is unfair. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: That's so nice. [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back, it's Kyle Meredith with Courtney Barnett.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did I also redirect flees on this album? [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, so I'm just gonna ask it. [SPEAKER_02]: What's it like working with him? [SPEAKER_02]: What did you notice about his playing and his songwriting? [SPEAKER_03]: I think that he... [SPEAKER_03]: is just such an incredible musician, like he, the way that he approaches music, he's so full of love and like this, I can't even explain it, just because such a positive energy and like he really [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, we only spent a few hours in the studio and he was just kind of so connected and so present the whole time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think you can just tell when someone lives and breathes music. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, there's just a lot of heart, I think, in the way that he plays. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, we spent a few hours, it was just Lady and Stella and I, and we just tracked this on live, we kind of, you know, he was kind of learning it as we were going.

[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, it was just such a joy. [SPEAKER_03]: It was such a joyous time. [SPEAKER_02]: Is that the song with the great jam at the end of it? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to remember that you kind of jam all the time. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's got like a big guitar solo. [SPEAKER_03]: It's one thing at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right. [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I was trying to remember exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: Which if you've done that one live yet, because the first time I hear that was like, oh, that's going to be a fun one live. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: We've played it a bunch. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's really fun to play. [SPEAKER_02]: Are you just letting it go at the end? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just the big guitar solo. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's one of the ones I really am looking forward to seeing when, you know, because the tour I know you've been doing the shows and complex here about to go out.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, the US leg is about the star, isn't it? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, we start next week. [SPEAKER_03]: So that'll be nice. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the first, yeah, I'm a bit nervous. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the first official album tour. [SPEAKER_03]: Because we've been playing the songs a bunch, but I guess this is the official thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Are you still rehearsing or are you past that point like just like we got to let it, you know, hands off the wheel? [SPEAKER_03]: We always rehearse at the beginning of like a run. [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, we have a couple days in Nashville rehearsing, but we kind of, yeah, we did that like work early, which feels good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I can't wait to see you out there. [SPEAKER_02]: I love these songs so much. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't bring up great advice. [SPEAKER_02]: That's my favorite track on the record right now. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just such a fun song and everything, but I think I can probably say that about every song on this record.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's always great getting to top music with you. [SPEAKER_02]: So congrats on this one and thanks for taking the time today. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_03]: It was nice to chat. [SPEAKER_02]: My thanks to Courtney Barnett, creature of habit, is out now. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to you for checking out the episode, do hit that subscribe button while you're hanging around to keep up with all the interviews that I've put out every single week.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Consequence podcast network. [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Bye bye. [SPEAKER_00]: It's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media.

Courtney Barnett Writer’s Block, Scrapped Songs, and Why Some Tracks Just Won’t Leave You Alone

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