Fenton Bailey & Randy Barbato on Murder, Ghost Stories, and Louisville

0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, y'all! [SPEAKER_02]: and welcome to another edition of Kyle Meredith with it's the interview series presented by WFPK a WFPK dot org consequence and the consequence podcast network.

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0:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Kyle Meredith with and please do give this series a rating and leave a review if you feel so inspired. [SPEAKER_02]: Some great guests have been here recently, including Maya Mitchell, Suzy Porter, Thomas Brody Singster and David Duelis all to talk about the second season of the Artful Dodger on Hulu and Disney Plus.

1:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Haley Lou Richardson was just here to discuss playing opposite Sam Rockwell in the new Gore Verbinski movie Good Luck at Fun. [SPEAKER_02]: Don't die. [SPEAKER_02]: We talked with [SPEAKER_02]: songwriting legends, Desmond Child and David Foster, Manor James Keenan of Tool and a perfect circle dropped in to discuss his new post-it for record.

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2:03 [SPEAKER_02]: That's me Kyle Meredith today. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking with Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbado. [SPEAKER_02]: The co-founder is a world of wonder, the production company behind Rupal's Drag Race and about a dozen other shows that have reshaped pop culture, they are behind the eyes of Tammy Faye and Party Monster and Murder in Glitterball City.

2:26 [SPEAKER_02]: the brand new true crime film, a two-part series on HBO Max, and it is a true crime story that hits especially close to home because the crime and the film was shot right here in Louisville where I'm based, just blocks from where I'm doing this right now. [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, let me read the log line here.

2:48 [SPEAKER_02]: The city of Louisville, Kentucky, known for the beauty of his historic Victorian architecture and birthplace of the mirrored glitter ball. [SPEAKER_02]: We also know as the disco ball. [SPEAKER_02]: It also has a reputation for being one of America's most haunted neighborhoods. [SPEAKER_02]: I can attest to that.

3:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And as the backdrop for a dark tale of murder, lies, and deceit. [SPEAKER_02]: with a unique, uniquely colorful cast of local residents as tour guides. [SPEAKER_02]: The two-part documentary explores the shifting landscape of a grizzly murder, the toxic relationship of two ex-lovers, and a vulnerable victim, and the unreliable accounts of flawed individuals on trials for their lives.

3:28 [SPEAKER_02]: It's inspired by the non-fiction book, a dark room in Glitter Ball City by David Domeney, the film Chronicles of 2010 murder case that starts with a 911 phone call that leads to police to the gruesome discovery of a body buried in the basement of a Victorian mansion. [SPEAKER_02]: As two men face police interrogators, a story emerges of twisted liaisons, [SPEAKER_02]: each partner points and accusatory finger at the other, and their respective accounts brim with glaring inconsistencies and false allegations as two separate murder trials unfold, key pieces of video evidence emerge, subverting expectations about subjects, joy banas, and Jeffrey month.

4:13 [SPEAKER_02]: So, Fenton and Randy are going to dig into why this case, [SPEAKER_02]: uh... demanded a different kind of true crime approach uh... one that looked beyond the crime itself and in the community queer history addiction myth-making and the ghosts a city carries with it they'll also talk about expanding beyond the source book finding unforgettable local characters navigating the responsibility of telling difficult lgbtq stories honestly and why this case still haunts them long after filming wrapped [SPEAKER_02]: All of that and more as we discuss murder and glitter ball city out on HBO Max, it's Kyle Mirth with Fetton Bailey in Randy Barbado.

4:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Are you in Louisville? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm right here in Louisville. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it hit home. [SPEAKER_02]: I knew a lot of those landmarks really well. [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So that seems like that's that's that's the easy spot.

5:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Like why this story. [SPEAKER_02]: What was it about this story that made you all want to tackle, you know, everything that had happened here. [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, Lisa Heller and Nancy Abram from HBO. [SPEAKER_03]: shared David Domini's book with us and asked us what we thought about it and we were kind of excited about it and so we said we'd love to go down and spend a couple of days in Louisville and and see what's there and if there's a story to tell and we brought a camera.

5:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And we came back and we were like, there is, there are many stories to tell, um, you know, and what excited us about this story and it's terrible to talk in, you know, that we were excited because, you know, at the core of it is this horrific crime, but [SPEAKER_03]: A, it presented this amazing creative challenge for us, you know, a way, a different way to tell a crime story.

6:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And then B, we just fell in love with Louisville and all the people there and there are so many stories about Louisville that, you know, we spent several years after that first trip going back and forth and filming. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll pick up on something you said there too about the different way to tell a crime story right because because you can take a little part to this and be like Oh, that kind of reminds me a little bit of what party monster was going on or something like that So so when you get to a story like this like what like as filmmakers as documentaries as storytellers Like I know you're basing it off of the book, but at some point you have to decide like this is the story that we want to tell

6:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's very true. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think the comparison with party monsters is interesting because party monsters are about, you know, Mike Layleg and Angel, but it was also about this whole kind of subculture of the club kits and I suppose in that, that's a similarity I hadn't thought of, but, [SPEAKER_04]: because in a way, a true crime can just be about one particular incident in isolation, but I think what interests us about, true crime is the way it sort of radiates out.

7:23 [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, you know, it's funny that not funny, we are hard, but just, [SPEAKER_04]: curious the way, you know, when you think about it, Louisville's got this sort of reputation old Louisville for being haunted and all these ghosts. [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of those stories to write begin with really foolish crimes that happened hundreds of years ago.

7:42 [SPEAKER_04]: And so here you've got a crime that happens, you know, in a relatively recent present. [SPEAKER_04]: And so it was almost like, well, this is kind of, [SPEAKER_04]: happen in real life, unfold in real life. [SPEAKER_04]: And it involves everybody in the community. [SPEAKER_04]: It seems like, you know, all murders.

8:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And I guess in a way that was the takeaway for us that every kind of murder isn't just an isolated tragedy of the person who's the victim or the person who commits to crime, but it's like, it involves the entire community, [SPEAKER_02]: it was really great how you picked up on the ghost stories too, of course I've done I think the ghost walk once, you know, some years ago.

8:28 [SPEAKER_02]: But you do, because there's these components, and for a while I wondered how this was going to come together, because you have the crime, you have the murder, you have the ghost stories, you have you have little John and the camp that's happening over there and to kind of pull it in, but that's what I mean, it's like to tell these stories, and you all have talked, you know, many, many years about the importance of telling queer stories.

8:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But like, this is like even the, the unflattering ones. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, this is not he did rivalry, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It is not that. [SPEAKER_02]: And I've seen that now. [SPEAKER_02]: I think the entire thing three times at this point. [SPEAKER_02]: And, but it fits it nicely with that conversation and everything.

9:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But, but I guess like, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll do that one, but I'll ask in a different way. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, it was a challenging, it was for us that was obviously we involved with Drag Race and Jamie Carroll was a Drag Queen. [SPEAKER_04]: So, on the one hand, I guess it was to some degree a familiar world, but on the other hand, it was also, it's also a very dark world and totally [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it is in many respects of very, it's a graphic story, right?

9:46 [SPEAKER_04]: And the actual truth of the story hinges around really intimate, quite explicit detail, and, and, [SPEAKER_04]: I think as a queer film, because there's a responsibility in telling that story. [SPEAKER_04]: I guess the happen other versions of the story told in big true crime strands, you know, A&E were there, Aaron did.

10:10 [SPEAKER_04]: But we felt like there was maybe the full complexity of the story hadn't really been told, because [SPEAKER_04]: maybe for whatever reason, some people felt that that sort of explicitness at the core of the story was just not fit for newspapers or TV or whatever. [SPEAKER_04]: And it is a difficult needle to thread to tell that story.

10:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I think as a community, the queer community can often be marginalized [SPEAKER_04]: judged icebergs, you know, with crystal and drugs and promiscuity and that those viewpoints can often be somewhat prejudicial and not really rooted in the truth of characters and people who, like everyone out, we're all really complicated people and I think we were trying to tell a story [SPEAKER_04]: The shed light on all three sides of this situation, you know?

11:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back, it's Kyle Mears with Fett and Bailey and Randy Barbado. [SPEAKER_02]: And Randy, you know, I'll throw this one to you, too, because because that other side of this, you know, we've talked about the characters a little bit, and you all find some incredible characters, you know, from a little John and that whole thing, was that all from the book or is this people that you kind of found along the way?

11:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it was very much inspired by the book. [SPEAKER_03]: Many of the characters, most of the characters, many of the characters are in the book. [SPEAKER_03]: And then from there, we just expanded outward. [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, it was very important for us to understand [SPEAKER_03]: the victim, Jamie Carroll, and his circumstances, and the people in his world, and so many of those people weren't necessarily in the book, but were incredibly compelling and again added some breath to the overall story.

12:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Like Fenton was saying, this thing about [SPEAKER_03]: telling LGBTQ stories. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's not a monolith, number one. [SPEAKER_03]: And number two, you do need all the stories. [SPEAKER_03]: And when you meet Hurricane Summers or Erica Hart, these incredible characters who have beautiful stories to share or our great storytellers, [SPEAKER_03]: To me, that's a service to the community, and so, by the way, is learning a little bit more about the devastating impact of crystal meth, not just on the game and LGBTQ community, you know, and so much of the South and so much of the country.

13:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, all of that, [SPEAKER_03]: all related, you know, all like tethered to the main crime story, but, but adding a kind of depth and, um, and, you know, heart, um, because a lot of what we do is, I mean, there's got to be heart there and we did fall in love with so many of the people in this film and, um, in the city itself, [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and, and, and we like to have a chuckle along the way, even with the darkest thing, just just one other thing about about this story, the role of the LGBTQ community in relationship to old Louisville, like just understanding the, you know, the history of, you know, Gays go there first.

14:04 [SPEAKER_03]: We, we love to clean up a corner of town and then everybody rushes in. [SPEAKER_02]: It was a great part because I'd never put, I'd never knew that part of, you know, of the story of that neighborhood. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing the neighborhood well. [SPEAKER_02]: I've been in basements that look like that in that neighborhood for a positive screen.

14:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, oh my god, I'm partying basements like that in that neighborhood, you know, it's, how long ago are Kyle? [SPEAKER_02]: When it hits close to home, it hits close to home. [SPEAKER_02]: I was also thinking because, you know, when you do talk to, you know, some of the drag queen community, I thought, you know, here are two people responsible for Rupal's drag race and they've walked in and I cannot imagine.

14:41 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we got to put on our best right now. [SPEAKER_02]: Like the red carpet that must have rolled out for you guys. [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually no. [SPEAKER_03]: No, people were super friendly. [SPEAKER_03]: Played like there's so many iconic clubs and so many so many iconic queens come from Ludeau, including Lexi love who's in the film.

15:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, no, it's just, you know, I think how we were going to tell the story was, you know, it was challenging because it's a big story, you know, spans a number of years before, after the murder, and then before the body was discovered, and then two separate trials, and you know, it's just, it's a sprawling story, but, and also a story of a whole neighborhood.

15:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Think about it. [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I think something really excited was, it was, you know, David's title, a dark room in Glittable City. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think Randy and I knew that their glitter ball was what we all understand as the disco ball, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: And then it was invented in Louisville.

15:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So, and that idea, sort of, it was almost like a sort of a rose bud kind of image, you know, like [SPEAKER_04]: In a way that was the sort of feeling we were trying to conjure up that everybody's got a different version of this story and even the two people there in the room have completely different versions so that the single incident just creates this starburst of lots of versions of the truth and you know it was trying to capture that was [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'd wanted it to term glitter ball me to come from the club scene because even around here, I think most people do call it a disco ball.

16:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that was a... [SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was invented in the 70s. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I thought it was basically full studio of 54. [SPEAKER_02]: That was... We're famous for, you know, bourbon bats and disco ball. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's your party right there, if you think that's kind of all you need.

16:43 [SPEAKER_02]: with the actual crime scene and I want to go back to the distinction, the distinction of storyteller of filmmaker and of documentary. [SPEAKER_02]: Because of the way the trials went, you know, I'd love to know, do you all have an opinion on what might have exactly happened and do you allow that opinion to make itself into the film?

17:07 [SPEAKER_03]: everyone who worked on this film had opinions and they would go back and forth and back and forth and there was endless debate and I think that that we tried not to allow it to impact the way we put this film together but I do think there's one opinion that we all share which is that two people should be in prison right now.

17:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that to the extent, I mean, we told the story as, you know, we discovered some things along the way, definitely, and we told the story after, you know, spending a lot of time on it. [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, [SPEAKER_03]: There's no question in our mind that there should be two people in prison and that's you know it's up to people to decide when they watch it, but yeah in terms of who was responsible for the lethal blows.

18:08 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we went back and forth endlessly and, and I don't think either of us sent in. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm telling you that you need to agree with this. [SPEAKER_03]: Either of us would publicly say who we thought did that, right, sent in. [SPEAKER_04]: Right. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I guess in a way no more.

18:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I will say more. [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's one of those things where the way the film begins, it seems such an open and closed case. [SPEAKER_04]: You have Joey sitting there. [SPEAKER_04]: admitting, first thing he's holding his boyfriend hostage, who's lying on the bed, and he Joey is waving gun, and then he says he's killed someone, you know.

18:51 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that would seem to be the beginning and end of his entire film. [SPEAKER_04]: But of course, appearances can be very deceiving, and I do think that as you watch the film, the sort of, [SPEAKER_04]: different versions of what that tape really is get unpacked and revealed. [SPEAKER_04]: And there are more just more things like that all along the way.

19:18 [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I mean really we were just so [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we read David's book and then we started researching. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just like it was like one thing after another. [SPEAKER_04]: And it really wasn't journey for us, you know? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So there was stuff that you all discovered beyond the book.

19:37 [SPEAKER_04]: A couple of things? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't mean no, yes. [SPEAKER_04]: And we spoke with Joey. [SPEAKER_02]: That must have been very interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we hear some of that, of course, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah.

19:51 [SPEAKER_02]: but just knowing what you've known, like, and maybe you all have been in that moment before in some of your other projects, but to, you know, it's one of those things to be on the other side of a line, knowing what you know, like that's, I'll use the word haunting, because it feels like it would be.

20:05 [SPEAKER_04]: That's good, I mean, it is haunting. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's like, it is like a ghost story. [SPEAKER_04]: It really haunted us and homes us, yes. [SPEAKER_04]: Not necessarily in a things that go bump in the nightway, but in a way it's like, you just keep thinking about it and thinking, what really did happen in that room.

20:28 [SPEAKER_02]: You know? [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back. [SPEAKER_02]: It's Kyle Mears with Fett and Bailey and Randy Barbado to have this conversation afterwards. [SPEAKER_02]: The things that could have gone differently. [SPEAKER_02]: if the two had been, you know, on trial together, if the jury had been able to see both testimonies, you know, all of these things, because it is once realized, and I remember the story when I happened, I did not remember the outcome, so it was nice, you know, to kind of go through that, and to go, oh my God, one of these guys is still out there.

20:59 [SPEAKER_02]: That's insane, you know? [SPEAKER_04]: It is, it is strange, isn't it? [SPEAKER_04]: To have two trials, for two people, for the same crime, [SPEAKER_03]: until reach to completely different thought it's part of just just going back to your original question at the very beginning of this conversation part of what like when we do anything one of the most important things to us is to humanize the story, the characters, for there to be a real connection when people are watching it and I think when it comes to the [SPEAKER_03]: the procedure is the headline.

21:40 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all about the procedural storytelling and the cliffhanger going into commercials or whatever. [SPEAKER_03]: No shade because people do it so well. [SPEAKER_03]: But I think sometimes what that does is distance people from [SPEAKER_03]: the actual crime, the victim, the impact on the community, all the other stuff that comes with what these crimes teach us.

22:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that was super important to us in making the film. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that really is the reason we decided to make the film when we first went down and spent time in the Oville. [SPEAKER_03]: And [SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully, you know, that will resonate with people who watch it and keep the story alive and also keep the victim's memory alive.

22:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's that line towards the end, right? [SPEAKER_02]: The monsters we create. [SPEAKER_02]: And she's does that land hard when, you know, when did she says that? [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, she's so powerful. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, what she says is so just gets you every time. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I'll I'll I'll more on the trivial saddle just bring up real quick using toxic as a song.

22:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know who's singing it, but I love the version of that. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh, when francy who is the lead at a when she found that song, I think you should listen to this well, you know, we already. [SPEAKER_04]: I should speak myself, not for Randy, but I'm a big Brittany fan.

23:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And we made a film about Brittany when she did her residency in Las Vegas. [SPEAKER_04]: So, and I've always loved that song. [SPEAKER_04]: It's such a strange, such a weird song. [SPEAKER_04]: But there's version of it by these remix artists called Two Way, I think, to W-E-I. [SPEAKER_04]: It was just like [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, that's it.

23:32 [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, it was like, that disco bowl and Brittany's toxic, you know? [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, a guy like you should wear a warning, you know, like, like, it's kind of like, says it all. [SPEAKER_02]: When it just smacks you in the face, it's perfect, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

23:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I have y'all announced what's next. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you always have such an incredible slate. [SPEAKER_03]: We're sitting on lots of secret. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I understand. [SPEAKER_02]: I understand. [SPEAKER_02]: I just didn't know if I'd miss something so far. [SPEAKER_03]: We're doing some amazing, two amazing projects with HBO.

24:05 [SPEAKER_03]: That we're just finishing up. [SPEAKER_03]: So we're very excited about those. [SPEAKER_03]: And they are like, and this is not smooth, but in the world we're living in now to have partners like them because most, [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not shady to either outlets, but it's really great working with them.

24:21 [SPEAKER_03]: We're lucky. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm glad this one landed there with you all too. [SPEAKER_02]: And seriously, great work. [SPEAKER_02]: You always do great work. [SPEAKER_02]: Both of you, but murdering Glitter Ball City, it was such an interesting watch. [SPEAKER_02]: And beautifully shot.

24:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I'd even talk about those. [SPEAKER_02]: The makeup shots that, you know, and the clocks and everything. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I got nothing, but chef, kiss notes for you. [SPEAKER_02]: All that stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: So, Randy Finn, seriously, [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for this. [SPEAKER_02]: Congrats on this and especially thanks for taking the time to talk about it's been a real pleasure.

24:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: Kyle, before you jump off. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_04]: Who do you think and he's this you'd have to include this. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm 100% with you. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, to take it further, maybe to say the things that you and forgive me for forgetting which is which the guy who's out.

25:09 [SPEAKER_02]: The guy who got away, I can't think of his name. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Jeff. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Jeff. [SPEAKER_02]: My expectation is it was him. [SPEAKER_02]: That's how, you know, but yes, both of them should be in jail, but it's sort of, I, I found myself really attracted to the idea of the fantasy that went too far.

25:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And because he was so fantasy-based and what he does, like that, that felt right to me. [SPEAKER_02]: And then it just comes off so cold. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's, yeah, so that's, that's where I landed. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I wouldn't be surprised if it was him, but both of them should be there.

25:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Scott. [SPEAKER_02]: Now that we've checked that box and clued it. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, thank you all so much again. [SPEAKER_02]: I hopefully will get to talk about whatever that next one is when it rolls around as well. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Bye. [SPEAKER_02]: My thanks to Fenton and Randy Murder in Glitter Ball City.

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