Morgan Neville on Why 1975 Still Feels Uncomfortably Familiar

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1:07 [SPEAKER_01]: You've seen her in the new Spike Lee joint highest to lowest ups at Denzel Washington. [SPEAKER_01]: Director Paul Figue was just here. [SPEAKER_01]: We got to discuss the house made, starring Amanda C. Fried and Sidney Sweeney. [SPEAKER_01]: The run-around's the show on Prime Video, talked to the band members, also Darcy Kardon, who stars in season three of Loot on Apple TV Plus.

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1:46 [SPEAKER_01]: He's the guy behind 20 feet from Stardom, which turned background singers into actual stars of the show. [SPEAKER_01]: Won't you be by neighbor, which reminded everyone that Fred Rogers was quietly radical. [SPEAKER_01]: And Roadrunner, which dug in an anti-Bordane's genius without sanding off those messier edges.

2:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He's back with his latest film called Breakdown 1975 on Netflix. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a deep dive into a year. [SPEAKER_01]: When America seemed to collectively lose its footing and still made some of the greatest movies of all time. [SPEAKER_01]: Morgan's going to explain why you can't tell the story of 1975 without the years around it, how opposed watergate anxiety, cultural whiplash, [SPEAKER_01]: and political exhaustion, blood directly into films like Chinatown, a dog day after noon, taxi driver, jaws even star wars.

2:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And why that moment, eerily mirrors where we find ourselves 50 years later. [SPEAKER_01]: The conversation also touches on new Hollywood's last great gasp. [SPEAKER_01]: The rise of Reagan era thinking before Reagan ever even took office. [SPEAKER_01]: How movies functioned as a national therapy session [SPEAKER_01]: Now fills endangered all of that and more as we discuss breakdown 1975 on Netflix, it's Kyle Meredith with Morgan Neville.

3:09 [SPEAKER_01]: it should be no surprise by looking around at this that I am quite the fan of what you've done over the years so music you're a big music head so I run a AAA public radio station here in Louisville as the regular part of the day job and then of course this interview series on the other half of it so that's on 30 years 25 30 years in this business yeah so music music music [SPEAKER_02]: I have some friends from Louisville who were, what would they, I mean, they probably left all before your time, but they were the music scene way back in the probably late eighties early.

3:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know a lot of those folks, the the the Squirrel Bay Peter Searsy loved Jones slants, of course. [SPEAKER_02]: Those are the guy, the Squirrel Bay love Jones. [SPEAKER_02]: you know, I know all those guys. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah Jonathan Palmer, Barry Thomas, Jonathan Jonathan's very good friend of mine.

4:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just texting him, uh, love Jones released a new single, um, yesterday. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know they were, he told me they were, they're stuff coming. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize it happened. [SPEAKER_01]: It's happening. [SPEAKER_01]: And so they're doing it again. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's great.

4:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, man, let's let's talk about breakdown 1975. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like a deep dive into the movies and the movies and in the year so the obvious question right like like what spurred that's like how did you arrive to kind of singling out that era? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean honestly it happened because of a conversation with Ted Serentus.

4:42 [SPEAKER_02]: who said, you know, it's crazy how many great films came out in 75. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he, like, went on a, you know, Google rabbit hole of kind of thinking about it. [SPEAKER_02]: And what I got was, hey, is there something to do kind of just memorializing that time? [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what it is.

5:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, I thought about it and I love those movies, I grew up on those movies. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, to me, I started to see, oh, there's this kind of snapshot of America at that time and the movies at that time. [SPEAKER_02]: And that America was incredibly screwed up and the movies were never better.

5:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And like, what's the correlation between us two things? [SPEAKER_01]: country. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess you can do that for lots of different points, but that points specifically because because you do, you do such a really, you paint it really perfectly of how that's still speaking to the day and where we are at the moment.

5:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the movies were in such a dialogue with the Times, and again, we go through it in the film, but there are even films that don't, aren't obviously about the Times, are about the Times. [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, Plansky saying that they were watching the Watergate hearings while the writing Chinatown, or Robert Altman was also obsessed with the Watergate hearings when he was working [SPEAKER_02]: working on those.

6:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So all this stuff is in the zeitgeist. [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, they, it all gets filtered through the movies. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's also this moment in the movies where, you know, people talk about New Hollywood. [SPEAKER_02]: But this is really the end of New Hollywood. [SPEAKER_02]: But it's also, I guess, what you would say, kind of high new Hollywood, which is early new Hollywood is, you know, easy writer and, you know, that kind of these great, kind of indie films.

6:55 [SPEAKER_02]: that have a very kind of, um, more of a rough spirit. [SPEAKER_02]: But once you get to the godfather, too, and shine a tone, and taxi driver, and all these films, it's like the new Hollywood filmmakers have [SPEAKER_02]: grown up in a way and they're making really peak mature films that are still writing that wave of what New Hollywood was just before the door closes.

7:24 [SPEAKER_01]: There's maybe [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm trying to think maybe only one other time that that kind of happening in that way. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really interesting because maybe it's only last year. [SPEAKER_01]: There was a book that came out about why 1999 was the greatest year in movies, right?

7:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw that book. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And... [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like the same thing you were coming out of the indie boom of the early 90s. [SPEAKER_01]: You had your own water gates, you know, with Clinton at the time, like, you know, how history repeats, I think, is well, I think to me history repeating is the big theme of this home.

8:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So without it ever being explicit, I think [SPEAKER_02]: When you realize what America went through in the 70s, it makes me feel like, oh, we've kind of been here before in some ways, like we've been, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: The country went through a nervous breakdown, I would say, in the 70s, you know, complete kind of loss of identity and I feel like it made me understand more about where we're at today by understanding what we went through then.

8:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And to me, really, the 70s, this particularly in the mid 70s is the period where this kind of hinge moment where. [SPEAKER_02]: unlike the kind of political transformation of the 60s or the financial transformation of America in the 80s, the 70s is psychological transformation. [SPEAKER_02]: It's where we go through a personality change because it's how we see ourselves completely shifts.

8:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of harder to see, but I think it's actually deeper in terms of [SPEAKER_02]: how we changed as Americans, you know, from being this, you know, kind of communitarian, you know, we're all in it together to, you know, everybody's in it for themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: We're not, we're not good as a country of remembering history.

9:21 [SPEAKER_02]: No, we're terrible at everything. [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back. [SPEAKER_01]: It's Kyle and Meredith with Morgan Neville because as a filmmaker, when you're when you're honing in so close to a specific time, like it's easy for people to be lost in the weeds, whereas you get more than macro view of it all and start seeing the threads of how we got there.

9:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you've already said how the idea arrives, [SPEAKER_01]: But like, what really is that moment where you start to figure it out? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, here's the movie, this is the movie, or the documentary. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, you know, I mean, I think the first thing I did was other than watching a lot of movies is I read a lot of books.

10:08 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and again, this was like my childhood. [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I have the feeling of what was going on in the 70s, the kind of growing up with no parents around, like the bad news bears captures that. [SPEAKER_02]: Like that was my childhood. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, we were all pretty feral.

10:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that being raised then. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's just a sense of kind of [SPEAKER_02]: You know, even as a kid kind of doing it on your own. [SPEAKER_02]: And like real, yeah, a lot of rules about things that I felt, but I would say really starting to understand that the shifts that we come to see in the 80s really are happening in the mid 70s.

10:57 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think in a way, 75 is where the 60s end and the 80s begin. [SPEAKER_01]: I understand that. [SPEAKER_01]: I say that a lot of time about 1983, 1992, you know, it doesn't start in the zero. [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's a little bit of a zero. [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, because really your, the idealism with the sixties and the kind of hope of political transformation falls apart in the early seventies.

11:23 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, as we say in the film, which I thought was, [SPEAKER_02]: striking is that 1972 was the most egalitarian year in American history. [SPEAKER_02]: There was less income inequality in 1972 than any year in the 20th century, which is basically the result of 40 years of New Deal.

11:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And like everything was valid, you know, working unions, wages, social net, [SPEAKER_02]: And all of that just starts fraying in the mid 70s. [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of that has to do with capitalism and trade, it has to do with the Arab oil embargo, it has to do with also has to do with the kind of complacency on the left, the kind of bloatedness of the unions and a lot of kind of self-inflicted wounds on the left about that.

12:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And then really understanding the kind of the forces that started to get martialed in the mid-70s, you know, from the heritage foundations and the moral majority, but certainly Ronald Reagan, realizing just what a big, [SPEAKER_02]: role he played throughout 75. [SPEAKER_02]: He's everywhere.

12:34 [SPEAKER_02]: He's syndicated radio three times a week and news paper column on TV because he needs to forget that part too because we think that's good in the 80s, right? [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's. [SPEAKER_02]: But this is Reagan's real announcement on a national stage that I'm going to be a major figure in politics going forward.

12:54 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a review, maybe you've seen it's the only negative part of bringing up, and I don't agree with the review, but it made me realize it's not like big stretch to get here, but just like I'll just read, it says the headline. [SPEAKER_01]: Breakdown 1975, mistakes, opinion for history and blames the wrong people.

13:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And I did not read it. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't read reviews. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's okay, by the way. [SPEAKER_01]: It's your fine missing and I promise. [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm only bringing it up, by the way, because I was thinking like, all right, when we look back, many times with the rose colored glasses, right?

13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And for as a politically charged moment, as we're in divided. [SPEAKER_01]: that if you paint that with the basic facts that you've done with as the kids say the receipts, here's the video clips, here's Reagan. [SPEAKER_01]: It won't matter if they're on the other side of that fence right now, it's almost like automatically shuts down.

13:52 [SPEAKER_01]: They see that too. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't know if you ever even think about that part, like that might happen as a viewer when you're making a film like this. [SPEAKER_01]: How we see history. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, of course, people, you know, that's part of the problem is that when we start to look at history, we did backwards that we don't see it clearly.

14:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know, you know, the film is very, you know, honest and fact checked about everything it says. [SPEAKER_02]: And the funny thing is, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: made films for people who I don't necessarily agree with. [SPEAKER_02]: And part of that is I started my career in kind of left-wing journalism and I just I felt frustration with preaching to the converted or even worse arguing with the converted.

14:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I've always been way more, I mean, one of the big themes of my work is how does culture connect us across divide. [SPEAKER_02]: So, once you be my neighbor, best of enemies, music of strangers, film after film, I'm looking at how I can reach people who I don't necessarily agree with.

15:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I really wanted to engage with an understanding of why characters like, [SPEAKER_02]: uh, Ronald Reagan and, um, uh, Bill of Shafley or, um, Archie Bunker, uh, resonated so much at the time because I feel like the, again, the kind of self-inflicted wounds at the left, [SPEAKER_02]: contributed to a lot of this, you know, and I feel like we're in the same moment right now, politically, where I think of people on the left don't want to take a lot of responsibility for the predicament we're in.

15:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, there's a lot of blame, no doubt, but I do also think there's a lot of responsibility. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, I think, [SPEAKER_02]: This film is right in my wheelhouse of trying to engage people in being comfortable in their own kind of pat histories of things. [SPEAKER_01]: Poken that bear, that way, yeah.

16:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But it is, I mean, of the other reviews that I read and I just kind of scattered through some of those, like every single one of them, I think, is to your points. [SPEAKER_01]: It started a conversation, even with that person, within their own article, with themselves, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: You can find them arguing with themselves here and there, you know, that's- Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

16:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I've never made a film like this, and that was also kind of interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I, you know, I would call it an essay film, you know, it's a just a different, [SPEAKER_02]: type of film that other people from Adam Curtis to, you know, Agnes Varda, Chris Marker have done. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just thought, well, let me try this kind of film and see what it's like.

16:54 [SPEAKER_02]: But to me, to be thought provoking, you know, is kind of [SPEAKER_02]: the the highest order because if, you know, again, it's kind of the opposite of telling people what they want to hear or confirming their biases. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: It's where we're getting from that. [SPEAKER_01]: We're getting nothing from that.

17:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: We're getting. [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back. [SPEAKER_01]: It's Kyle and Meredith with Morgan Neville. [SPEAKER_01]: I will say on the fun side of this, the way you cut these movies together to talk to each other.

17:25 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just on the purely fun, it's so like that's entertainment on top of the history, you know, no question there, just a compliment of well done. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, the movies themselves are amazing, but then the idea of having the movies and conversation with each other as they're in conversation with America at the time just became this gear that worked so well when we started putting it together that, yeah, that we just completely leaned into it.

17:58 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, because there are other, you know, you could do a whole film about music in 1975. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we touch on music, but not really. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's so many, I feel like so many scenes in the film could be documentaries and to themselves. [SPEAKER_02]: Some have been documentaries, and there was one called Troph Dead City this year about New York City's bankruptcy that came out a whole documentary, which is very good.

18:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of, it's the synthesizing of all these ideas and kind of reminding people that they are all happening at the same time and they're all happening in a way that are echoing off of one another. [SPEAKER_01]: well if history does repeat as we do see as we are here if you only have to look around what about on the filmmaking side i mean do we are we set up for that to ever happen like that again with the indie you know the new crowd in that sort of way you know [SPEAKER_02]: We're certainly not in the era.

18:57 [SPEAKER_02]: We were in a new Hollywood, where there was major a tourist cinema everywhere. [SPEAKER_02]: That said, I don't want to be a complete, you know, denier of the fact that, you know, this year has produced some incredible, [SPEAKER_02]: great movies. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not like great movies aren't getting made, but they're way more the exception than they are at the norm.

19:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would say the health of the film business is obviously [SPEAKER_02]: not what it was and somebody who's grown up loving movies and theatrical movies, you know, I'm as concerned as anybody about the health of and diversity of what we get in theaters. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that's that's the the I feel like we as a culture are [SPEAKER_02]: losing our feel for going to the movies, you know, and obviously COVID is exacerbated this, the idea that we're just used to seeing things at home.

20:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly, I've made a lot of documentaries that have done well theatrically. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's something about that shared experience of seeing movies that we are just, that's endangered right now. [SPEAKER_01]: And I saw a positive thing today. [SPEAKER_01]: It said, Gen Z is up 25%.

20:32 [SPEAKER_01]: of them going to the movies. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember the entire quote about that, but that's the general number of it. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've got a 20-year-old son who's super into Letterbox and he's, you know, my 18-year-old son. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they go. [SPEAKER_01]: They go.

20:45 [SPEAKER_01]: They go. [SPEAKER_01]: They go. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hopeful. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not always optimistic. [SPEAKER_01]: Right on that cusp of Gen X and millennial enough that I have the cynicism of my Gen X crew. [SPEAKER_01]: But I, I don't, I'm hopeful of this moment where studios are gobbling up each other.

21:07 [SPEAKER_01]: because it's happened in the music industry just the same. [SPEAKER_01]: And in the music industry, what it allowed was, you know, these like post-punk movements to come back out up again, you know, out of Ireland and England and everything. [SPEAKER_01]: And we start to get a real indie scene again.

21:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, isn't that what can happen in movies too? [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, if all the big guys are gobbling up each other, doesn't that leave room for the little guys to make their own thing again? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think there's a huge vacuum in terms of the opportunity for audiences to find those kinds of films.

21:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So with the consolidation of our distribution channels, I think just as a consumer, [SPEAKER_02]: I, I want there to be more places than are exciting to to engage with independent voices and like I think you know there's been so much change and I think in the next couple of years we're going to see more and more of that just because.

22:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think everybody just wants to watch the same, you know, 20 movies a year on every screen, if they're even going to a theater, you know, I just think it's not, it's not serving me, and there are a lot of people like me that want to have choices and go to the [SPEAKER_02]: I think we also have to make sure that the theatrical experience is worth going to, you know, that it still feels special, which it doesn't always these days.

22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, I miss an arcade at the movies, but that's, you know, I'm showing my age there, too. [SPEAKER_02]: It's you're kidding the movies, and just, but also, yeah, I mean, I don't have much down the rabbit hole, but like my local, you know, arc light was a movie chain. [SPEAKER_02]: theater here in I think just in California that that was great.

23:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And the theater they had that went out of business during COVID is reopened as a regal and I have to say, you know, it's night and day from the kind of energy and community that it used to have to what it is now. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a problem that theater chains can't just [SPEAKER_02]: squeeze every penny by running more ads and doing less and less and expecting that to be a business model that sustains.

23:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the people who are investing in the theatrical experience, those theaters are exciting. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I don't just once in a month to be the kind of vinyl of modern journalism. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it has the potential to be more. [SPEAKER_02]: I think the thing that cinema does is in the theater is bring people together to have a communal experience, which is kind of a modern day church, so.

24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Very much on point, I agree, I agree. [SPEAKER_02]: I want that experience. [SPEAKER_01]: I was, I was, it was a research thing I said was reading about how fizzy you're very first documentary, but as you're very first one about, uh, the forgotten Lost L.A. Yeah, shotgun three way. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

24:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't seen a rip was just reading about it, but it automatically made me go. [SPEAKER_01]: could he make a sequel to that? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what would that look like now? [SPEAKER_01]: Because the things we're talking about. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever, have you ever considered that?

24:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't, you know, I did my first documentary because I was a kid from Southern California who went to school back east and what I would talk about the idea of L.A. history people would laugh at me. [SPEAKER_02]: And this said, L.A. history was an oxymoron. [SPEAKER_02]: And to me, I think I've been proven right [SPEAKER_02]: People understand that L.A. has a very fascinating history, but at the time, again, you know, in the late 80s, when I was in college, L.A. was still kind of the easy punch line for a lot of people talking about the cultural value of Southern California, but now I think with.

25:18 [SPEAKER_02]: not just film and music, but the art scene and everything else. [SPEAKER_02]: I think L.A. has always been a fascinating place to me because it's a place where people have largely made up their own rules away from wherever they came from. [SPEAKER_02]: and that kind of freedom is always been something I've I've loved about it here.

25:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'm I'm going to think about that. [SPEAKER_02]: It might be time for a sequel. [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: In the meantime, breakdown 1975 is so good. [SPEAKER_01]: I so enjoyed it. [SPEAKER_01]: And the music with the heartbreakers and heart and more and everything.

25:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I know we can get it into that, but but seriously Morgan, it's such a pleasure to get to meet and talk to you on here. [SPEAKER_01]: So congrats on this one and whatever comes next. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: Next is Paul McCartney in the 70s. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm in.

26:10 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll do this again next year. [SPEAKER_01]: And my thanks to Morgan Breakdown 1975 is out now on Netflix. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to you for checking out the episode. [SPEAKER_01]: Hit that subscribe button before you get out of here to keep up with all the interviews that I put out every single week at Spotify, Apple Podcast, NPR, WFPK.org.

26:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Consequence YouTube for the video versions anywhere you get your podcast from you can subscribe to Kyle Meredith with and please To give this series a rating and leave a review where ever you're listening from [SPEAKER_01]: After that, you can head over to wfpk.org right to a show Monday if you Friday starting at 6 p.m. Eastern.

26:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's four hours of classics from the 80s and 90s. [SPEAKER_01]: You get the best in new music, bonus interviews, lots of music news as well. [SPEAKER_01]: One of my recent shows featured some classics and favorites from Yola Tango, David Diggs, Elvin Bishop, Jimmy Eatworld, the Posi's, Jill Sobiel, Pet Shop Boys, Scott Wylin, Sun [SPEAKER_01]: 21 pilots wore the darkness and my interviews with cheap trick Chicago and John Waters That's what you get when you tune in a weeknight starting 6 p.m. Eastern at wfpk.org Consequence has your music in film news You're gonna also find me on any of the social media sites.

27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: The address is always at Kyle Meredith Please do like follow along. [SPEAKER_01]: That does it for another edition on Kyle Meredith I'll see you next time [SPEAKER_00]: Consequence podcast network. [SPEAKER_03]: It's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_03]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media.