Neko Case on Neon Grey Midnight Green, Spiders, and the Joy of Music

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[SPEAKER_03]: You can subscribe to Kyle Meredith with. [SPEAKER_03]: Please to give this series a rating and a review where every listing from some great guest drop by recently including Amy Man Joe Henry over the Rhine Walker's Skull Bell He plays Percy Jackson in the new Disney plus series Morgan Neville the documentarian behind 20 feet from start him Won't you be my neighbor Anthony boarding and road runner.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Just an example of what you get when you subscribe to the Kyle Meredith with podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's me Kyle Meredith today. [SPEAKER_03]: I get to catch up with Nico Case. [SPEAKER_03]: The Vermont Bay singer songwriter who first broke out in the 90s with her solo debut, The Virginian, before becoming a founding member of the new pornographers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Across the run of critically revered solo albums, she's built a catalog that bridges country, indie rock and punk, anchored by one of the most recognizable voices of her generation. [SPEAKER_03]: She returned with a new album called Neon Gray Midnight Green her first in seven years. [SPEAKER_03]: And we got to talk about why this record feels like a celebration in music itself, the people who make it, the people who listen, and the strange communal magic that happens when everyone meets in the same room, Niko is going to dig into how the album stands apart from her recent autobiography.

[SPEAKER_03]: while trusting yourself as a producer matters more than ever and how recording with real musicians shaped the sound. [SPEAKER_03]: And along the way, the conversation will wonder in the dream logic, songwriting perspectives, live performance energy, indigenous ways of thinking, and our lifelong love of spiders.

[SPEAKER_03]: and how paying attention to the small overlook things might just make us better listeners, better humans, and maybe even better roommates to the creatures in our basements. [SPEAKER_03]: All that and more, as we talk Neon Grey Midnight Green, it's Kyle Meredith with Nico Case. [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's good to see you again. [SPEAKER_03]: How are you? [SPEAKER_04]: I'm good. [SPEAKER_04]: How you been? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm all right, I was, let's say I've got the ability, uh, I don't know, a senior artist, the end of the years, whatever. [SPEAKER_04]: That's senior artist. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm kind of checked out, you know, I'm ready to be checked out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not that I'm not excited about our conversation, but... Oh, no, that's okay, I get it. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so nice to, uh, to be talking to you again. [SPEAKER_03]: I know it's been a while, so it's a last record, but to God, neon gray, midnight green. [SPEAKER_03]: is an absolute damn masterpiece that you have done.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: That's some high praise. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much. [SPEAKER_03]: I tried to use an exponent to make sure that it was a little bit higher. [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a little bit of a praise. [SPEAKER_04]: I appreciate that. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: We all worked really hard on that record.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, it's nice to hear. [SPEAKER_03]: It does sound like that. [SPEAKER_03]: It's also, I mean, so this is the first one you also released your autobiography. [SPEAKER_03]: And I tend to think of some of these records like, is this the first record after the book? [SPEAKER_03]: Is it part of the book?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like how do you see it? [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a compartmentalizer, so there's maybe one song on the record that is related to the book, but it's only a coincidence, so I kind of work on things separately. [SPEAKER_04]: I definitely was writing for both things the whole time, but yeah, I definitely compartmentalize them and so they're separate to me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is that natural or is that something you have to do? [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I think it might be an ADHD thing because it just distractions are difficult for me. [SPEAKER_03]: So, well, it, I mean, it gives the, the album, it's own story then. [SPEAKER_03]: And I, and I think from what I understand, I mean, it's a really interesting story.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this record, there's the sound of this record and then it's what you're talking about. [SPEAKER_03]: And and I, I love that maybe those two things at least, if I'm not trying for a thread that's not there, [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's so interesting to me that the album begins and ends with almost the same word, strange and stranger.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hmm, I did not know that. [SPEAKER_04]: How did you not know this? [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, I'm too, I'm too deep inside of it. [SPEAKER_04]: There's no way to know that those things are always happening, but that is really interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: I did not think about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you have, you have, stranger and then at the end, you have the love of strange and that it's not actually, it's really interesting the way I don't know, [SPEAKER_04]: is it is and people point those things out to you and it is really interesting and it's like I had no and people will sometimes interpret my songs in ways that are so much more interesting than I interpreted them in the first time and so I don't correct them because I want them to have that as, you know, their version of it because people's interpretations of things are often just so interesting and really creative.

[SPEAKER_03]: maybe there's still like like you start with destination, like like that's the start. [SPEAKER_03]: We start at the end, I guess is what that sounds like, you know, as as your first track. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, if you think about it that way. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I guess it was that was there was that part of it's or am I or am I getting my own interpretation again?

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that might be your own interpretation, but the actual interpretation, which I don't normally give out, is that the people I'm singing about, they are the place they're trying to go. [SPEAKER_04]: They are the big deal. [SPEAKER_04]: They are the, they are the event. [SPEAKER_03]: And these people you're talking about, I mean, I guess that's what I was getting to a minute ago with, like, there is the story of the record.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, so you have these people. [SPEAKER_03]: And correct me if I'm wrong here, but you have these people that's passed away in your life and that meant a lot of like so much musically, maybe I should let you take it there because I feel like I'm going to teed her off somewhere. [SPEAKER_04]: There are specific songs about people who've passed away and then there's a lot of other just, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: I just, I wanted to make sure those things got on there as well as sonically, I wanted to make sure there was lots of real people playing on the record because that's what I wanted to celebrate with musicians and you know engineers and mastering engineers and people who work with us and even, you know, I consider these people musicians too, the people

[SPEAKER_04]: really it's generative in a way. [SPEAKER_04]: And when they show up at the show, you really complete the circuit. [SPEAKER_04]: There's not one without the other in my case. [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, music can be used in so many different ways. [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're a musician who likes to play live, like you want an audience, you want people to pay attention, you want [SPEAKER_04]: to heighten the intensity of the feeling.

[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, of course we play for ourselves. [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes, you know, rehearsal can be really fun and playing guitar on the couch by yourself can be really satisfying. [SPEAKER_04]: But there's something transcendent and really instinctual and ancient about singing to other people and have them singing along with you, or just even...

[SPEAKER_04]: you know, connecting with you in that way, showing up with the intention to connect with you. [SPEAKER_04]: It's a big deal and I want to make sure the audience understands how much that means to us. [SPEAKER_03]: and to make an album about that, like I was thinking I guess in the most broadest terms, like in a sort of way you made an album about music, about the celebration of music.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I go over a little guy there. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I remember like thinking like, Pete Townsend tried that. [SPEAKER_03]: He said, you know, with the who's next record was supposed to be, this about how we hear music. [SPEAKER_03]: And he sort of failed. [SPEAKER_03]: because it's almost like shooting a movie about movies.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's not an easy thing to find how it will work and you did. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, did Pete Townsend say that he thought he failed her? [SPEAKER_03]: Sort of, yeah, because the lifehouse... [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be called the lifehouse album and it didn't work, so then we just got who's next in the songs.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was like, well, these are at least good songs. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, but as a concept, he's like, I couldn't crack it. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he's probably just got really high standards because when I listen to the who, and who's next specifically, I can't help but think about the process of recording it, and what happened sonically, so maybe he succeeded more than he thinks he did.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's probably hard on himself, I don't know. [SPEAKER_03]: I think he is hard of himself. [SPEAKER_03]: He's historically, as we have our stories, you know, and we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, come back, it's Kyle Meredith with Nico Case. [SPEAKER_03]: But it is, it's just nice that you found it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the way it sounds, as you were talking about like, like, that was the first thing I noticed. [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like a bunch of people in a room. [SPEAKER_04]: That was on purpose. [SPEAKER_03]: Right. [SPEAKER_03]: Why doesn't more stuff sound like that anymore? [SPEAKER_03]: I don't mean for that to be like, wow, man, that's back in the day or whatever, but it sounds so much more real.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they're good songs out there. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's hard to be a musician and not think about what people are expecting or what is going to make your song more listenable to a large audience. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have that. [SPEAKER_04]: I can't help but do what I think the music needs and it's not always.

[SPEAKER_04]: in line with what's fashionable at the moment. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not giving myself praise because, you know, I do think about it. [SPEAKER_04]: I generally just check it out the window. [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, there have been times when I've really tried to do things for that reason and they've always failed.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it didn't make the kind of difference it was supposed to. [SPEAKER_04]: It's all about being self-conscious and worrying about what the world is going to think of your music when really [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I'm 55 now and I have so much confidence that I've never had before and I am glad that I learned all those things the hard way, but I also really enjoy trusting myself.

[SPEAKER_04]: It is a great luxury and as a woman, it's a triumph. [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like you might have beat me to a question too because what did you learn about yourself as a producer that didn't exist beforehand? [SPEAKER_04]: I think I just learned more of what I kind of already know, which is every record, you feel like the next record should be easier, but all you've done is make your hearing and your perception more acute as to what you don't like and or what you want more of and, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: with one record or with 10.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a lifelong pursuit and so there's just always some new thing that is really helpful and it's great to have been making records for so long and seeing what technology has really helped the process like it's hindered it. [SPEAKER_03]: That music like [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it sounds real, and it sounds like the people in the room, but that dream-like quality.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you've got, what's the Tom Boy Gold that sounds like an actual dream when I listen to that? [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the sounds like a dream, what happened? [SPEAKER_03]: But even just that sound, I mean, is there a story to actually finding that, like actually pulling that off? [SPEAKER_04]: There's a point in the song where I use backward reverb to take what I'm saying kind of out of time, a little bit.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that triggers that dream-dream-like effect a little bit. [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sure technically there's that. [SPEAKER_04]: And then, you know, I'm also- that song is basically a shadow of destination. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm singing about the people in destination. [SPEAKER_04]: So in that way, the two songs had to be next to each other on the record, I felt because a lot of people say, Tom Boy Gold is a very strange song to have so early on the record and I realized that that is true, but at the same time, it's also a companion piece to destination.

[SPEAKER_04]: So and it being a shadow of the other song is a dream-like concept in itself, I suppose. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so hard to explain a dream to someone and I feel like I just want to point to that song like this is this this is what a dream is this is If it were a song like that's what it would be, you know, it's Do you play that live?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do yes. [SPEAKER_03]: Is that a challenge? [SPEAKER_04]: No. [SPEAKER_03]: Like I guess what I'm asking is like, do you have to get in a head space? [SPEAKER_04]: It's no different than anything else, it's not spoken and it's not sung, it's in this liminal in between which is called Spryxdema in German.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's where you sing speak. [SPEAKER_04]: So you have to be in tune, you have to be in key, but you're speaking. [SPEAKER_04]: But you're also, it's kind of like skipping. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like you're not walking and you're not running. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like if you were a horse you would be trotting and so it's a strange in between place but I really enjoy it and I use it a lot in working on the musical of Thelman Louise and it didn't surprise me that it kind of found its way in.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I've done it before I just never thought about what it was or why it was. [SPEAKER_04]: It's a texture and a way of delivering information that's different. [SPEAKER_04]: It's not hard, but it's not easy either. [SPEAKER_03]: There's a little fun moments. [SPEAKER_03]: They get to a little gears.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was thinking back. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you'll remember this or not. [SPEAKER_03]: But the very first time I ever met you is here in Louisville. [SPEAKER_03]: And it was at a forecast of festival. [SPEAKER_03]: And we were doing an interview, like a picnic table or something.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the tiniest spider landed on my hand. [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know if I was about to brush it off, but you very quickly went, whoa, whoa, whoa. [SPEAKER_03]: And you just started talking about how much you loved spiders. [SPEAKER_04]: You, I love spiders. [SPEAKER_03]: I, something about that stuck with me anyway, you know, and just about you.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, and they hear it is, I guess, some version of that made it into this song. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's about loving little things that we're, you know, we're definitely programmed to be afraid of things like snakes and spiders because, you know, it can go awry and they move differently than other animals do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so that's a little shocking when you see it out the corner of your eye, but to resist [SPEAKER_04]: not try to understand them is is really fruitful if you if you try to stop the instinctive flinch and go for the what is that doing? [SPEAKER_04]: What what what's going on and not creatures mind?

[SPEAKER_02]: Did you always have that? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think that is? [SPEAKER_04]: I just spent so much time alone, I think, and when I was alone, I was with animals. [SPEAKER_04]: So their consciousness wasn't more or less important than mine as a human. [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't, I wasn't taught that humans were the top of the food chain and therefore.

[SPEAKER_04]: in charge of the world and the most important thing in the world, which isn't true. [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, I'm always trying to carry that message forward that if we stop feeling like we're the most important thing on Earth, we are happier and there's less pressure. [SPEAKER_04]: And there's less grief and struggle.

[SPEAKER_04]: And there's something very comforting in caring about the world and caring about other creatures. [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, it's important to understand why species do what they do. [SPEAKER_04]: And whether it's a species of tree or a species of dog or cat or whatever. [SPEAKER_04]: It's just important to understand the other elements in the world.

[SPEAKER_04]: We are of the world. [SPEAKER_04]: We are of nature. [SPEAKER_04]: We are animals. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we have a lot of instincts that we've lost, but they're not lost. [SPEAKER_04]: They're just buried. [SPEAKER_04]: But when you start doing things instinctively, you feel more confident and you feel more yourself.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you can see the things you may believe like, [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, gossip and, you know, new cycle stuff is not important and is not what is happening in the world. [SPEAKER_04]: That is a tiny myopic view, but you actually believe those things and experience those things and look for other other evidence and it makes you a happier person, not because you are bearing your head in the sand, but because you're broadening how you get information if that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back. [SPEAKER_03]: It's Kyle Meredith with Nico Case. [SPEAKER_03]: If you have a red Daniel Quinn that the author is not right. [SPEAKER_03]: Ishmael always his big book. [SPEAKER_03]: Talk a lot about animation. [SPEAKER_04]: I've not read about.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've not read that book, but I know of it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so much of what you just said. [SPEAKER_03]: I remember from that. [SPEAKER_03]: Because it talks about animism and which, you know, of the world and all of that. [SPEAKER_03]: It's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_04]: Is it an event from animal worship? [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, but but it but there is in that showing respect for all points of life even down to plants, not just to, you know, don't bother playing, but just that respect, you know, for what they do. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, a very indigenous way of thinking. [SPEAKER_04]: exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely not new at all. [SPEAKER_04]: I definitely engage in a lot of reading and watching of indigenous content because I am very aligned with that idea that you know to be of the world and to be of nature is the way back and and of every healing thing to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now how do you just get 8 billion people to realize that really good question I think a lot of a lot of people are already there. [SPEAKER_04]: So maybe like, you know, it's several other billion, maybe not just the fact I don't think it's 8 billion that we got to tell, but just living the example of it and trying to get people excited about things like spiders or just asking the question why do people have to be so special all the time, so above everything, it's not where we should be it's not our natural place, our natural places in concert with those things.

[SPEAKER_03]: and in concert with Niko Case. [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, sure. [SPEAKER_04]: Just that's it, come on over. [SPEAKER_03]: Tying it back around. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited, you're going to be here in Louisville. [SPEAKER_03]: It's been a minute since I've got a Niko concert. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll make sure to see you back in town, and especially with this new music, seriously.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's such a beautiful record. [SPEAKER_04]: How do you feel about spiders now? [SPEAKER_03]: I think, and I'm completely honest about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Since that day, [SPEAKER_03]: that I was talking about referencing with you. [SPEAKER_03]: I have literally looked at them different.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, man. [SPEAKER_04]: And let's start things for Latin spiders have a little bit of consideration. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we have a basement. [SPEAKER_03]: And we've got several different types of spiders that find their way in there every year. [SPEAKER_03]: And as best we can, it's a scoop them up and put them out situation.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's very sweet of you. [SPEAKER_03]: I did see that the roomba did take one as it's hostage, not too long ago. [SPEAKER_04]: I vacuumed some up by accident and terrible every single time. [SPEAKER_03]: But it's true that since that day, I'm not even kidding. [SPEAKER_03]: I honestly did shift my perspective on that a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to crawl in all over my hand still. [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't get there. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't pick up wild spiders. [SPEAKER_04]: I do let jumping spiders on me because they're so cute, but no, I don't like getting bit by spiders. [SPEAKER_04]: I've been bit by spiders accidentally, and it hurts like hell.

[SPEAKER_03]: Same, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: It's not fun. [SPEAKER_04]: So I get it. [SPEAKER_04]: People don't want to be bit by spiders. [SPEAKER_04]: And spiders don't want to be bit by us. [SPEAKER_04]: So it's just a two-way street. [SPEAKER_04]: A two-way street. [SPEAKER_04]: But you know, accidents happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just an agreement that we can have with each other. [SPEAKER_04]: That's right. [SPEAKER_04]: Spider, thank you, touching those fighting insects that want to live in my room and suck my blood. [SPEAKER_04]: I appreciate it and also I'm going to try not to smash you. [SPEAKER_03]: Seriously, it was great catching up with you again.

[SPEAKER_04]: You too. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for having me on any time and we'll see you soon. [SPEAKER_03]: All right. [SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you in Louisville. [SPEAKER_03]: My thanks to Nico Case, Neon Grey Midnight Green, is available now. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks to you for checking out the episode.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hit that subscribe button before you get out of here so you can get new interviews just like this one every single week, Spotify, Apple Podcast, NPR, WFPK.org, Consequence, YouTube for the video versions or anywhere you get your podcast from, you can subscribe to Kyle Meredith with and again, please give this series a rating and leave a review where every you're listening from.

[SPEAKER_03]: After that, you can head over to WFPK.org to show Monday through Friday, starting 6 p.m. Eastern. [SPEAKER_03]: It's 4 hours of classics from the 80s and 90s. [SPEAKER_03]: You get the best in new music and bonus interviews, lots of music news as well. [SPEAKER_03]: One of my recent shows features some classics and favorites from Warren Zivan, Susan Tedeski, [SPEAKER_03]: Devo, the Chemical Brothers, Sheparrell, Fishbone, Sharon Jones, Bomba Estereo, Kennor Dean, Candy Jenkins, David Bowie, Food Fighters, Dave Matthews, the Rackon Tours, Cautious Clay, and my interviews with REM, the Cranberries, and Waxahatchy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And that does it for another edition, I'm Kyle Meredith, I'll see you next time. [SPEAKER_04]: I have everything ready so I can start recording on my phone whenever you're the word. [SPEAKER_00]: It's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media.

Neko Case on Neon Grey Midnight Green, Spiders, and the Joy of Music

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