Rewind: Aimee Mann, Joe Henry & Karin Bergquist on Pleased to Meet Me, Chasing Fame, and Commercial Validation

[SPEAKER_00]: It's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media. [SPEAKER_02]: and welcome to another edition of Kyle Meredith with it's the interview series presented by WFPK at WFPK.org consequence and the consequence podcast network.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We've had some great guest drop by Walter Scobell. [SPEAKER_02]: You know him maybe more as Percy Jackson in the latest Disney plus series. [SPEAKER_02]: He was just on here talking about the second season, setting us up for the third season. [SPEAKER_02]: Documentarian Morgan Neville. [SPEAKER_02]: He's one behind 20 feet from start him.

[SPEAKER_02]: Won't you be my neighbor, Anthony Bourdain Roadrunner, [SPEAKER_02]: We got to talk about his latest with Netflix. [SPEAKER_02]: It's called Breakdown 1975. [SPEAKER_02]: We also caught up with Emmy Lou Harris, Lori Morgan, Aiana Lee, you saw her in the Spike Lee movie. [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, as to lowest director Paul Feig dropped in to talk about the house made, which he directed starring Sydney Swenie in a Mandy Seafreet.

[SPEAKER_02]: The run-around on Prime Video, Darcy Cardan, she popped up in the latest season of Loot on Apple TV. [SPEAKER_02]: Julianna had failed to tell us about her 20th album, Lightning Might Strike, Lou Graham from Forener and the cast of Frago Rock, just an example of what you get when you subscribe to the Kyle Meredith with podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's me Kyle, Mayor today, a special rewind episode. [SPEAKER_02]: Amy Mann, Grammy winning, songwriter, razor wit, alt rock pedigree with till Tuesday, knack for turning emotional wreckage into immaculate pop songs, almost one an Academy Award for Magnolia. [SPEAKER_02]: Joe Henry, shape-shifting songwriter producer, whose resume zigzags from art folk to soul, to film scores, redefining American music along the way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Karen Berquist, the voice at the hearts of over-the-rine, known for poetic, slow-burn songs that feel like late night conversations, you don't want to end. [SPEAKER_02]: this is a special rewind episode. [SPEAKER_02]: I got to talk with all three of them. [SPEAKER_02]: Not just talk.

[SPEAKER_02]: I got to spend an afternoon with three of them pretty much. [SPEAKER_02]: I won't say trapped in a radio booth because I was very happy to be there feeling very, very lucky. [SPEAKER_02]: And even as I look back on it, this is over 10 years ago. [SPEAKER_02]: That's still a pretty good career high right there.

[SPEAKER_02]: and it all it was all because the three at that moment were deep into filming the Louisville shot movie pleased to meet me. [SPEAKER_02]: The indie music film directed by Archie Borders, my friend Archie Borders, the movie would go on to be released in 2013. [SPEAKER_02]: So in this conversation, [SPEAKER_02]: we got to break down the strange thrill of musicians stepping into acting roles, how the movie story about forced collaboration mirrored their real-life creative chaos, why chasing fame, had already lost its appeal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And along the way they got candid about the fear of embarrassing themselves, the freedom that came after the music industry's collapse, and why discovery, [SPEAKER_02]: So let's all head back to 2012, as we talked about the movie, please to meet me. [SPEAKER_02]: It's Kyle Meredith with Amy Man, Joe Henry.

[SPEAKER_02]: and over the runs, Karen Berquist. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not even one nine WFPK, ready, a local Kyle Meredith, and this might be one of the greatest days in my life. [SPEAKER_02]: Surrounded by amazing musicians to left me to the middle of me to the right. [SPEAKER_02]: All it's gonna, Joe Henry is in the studio, Amy Mann and Karen Berquist to us, does he your name right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Cause I always look at that. [SPEAKER_05]: You do. [SPEAKER_02]: You can start off with an apology. [SPEAKER_05]: It's an appropriate English pronouncement, which is fine. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it is awesome to have you guys in here. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being here today. [SPEAKER_06]: We're delighted to be here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_02]: You've all been in Louisville actually for, um, I don't know what, we couple weeks. [SPEAKER_02]: Weeks and a half. [SPEAKER_06]: You know what we can have, it seems like a month. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't mean it that way. [SPEAKER_02]: Things go really slow here.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, thanks. [SPEAKER_06]: It's purely because of the movie we're doing such long hours, it has that, you know, it's a poor time where a week becomes a month, but we're in love with this town. [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I like to hear. [SPEAKER_06]: It's unbelievable, it's a crazy little utopia, I'm just waiting for the bubble to be burst.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, keep it coming, keep it coming. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we're, we're, we're built and thrilled with, with little, [SPEAKER_02]: What you're talking about you're all here shooting a movie actually this is a bit of a kind of a bit of a different element I mean, there is history with movies and TV here, but you're shooting movie companies to meet me with Archie Borders directing This is based off this American life episode, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's called Everybody Speaks Alton That was the original broadcast episode Yeah, so what's the story? [SPEAKER_02]: It gives the dummy [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you looked at me when you said that even though we started talking to a musician. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think the shorthand story is that a woman who's a producer and list the help of her ex-partner who's a regional rock star who didn't quite break through and they have this concept together of an experiment where they put a band together of [SPEAKER_04]: completely disparate characters, you know, people who have no history together personally or musically don't come from similar musical backgrounds, take them into the studio for a single day and have to come out with a recorded song.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it's just sort of, you know, what can we do with this sure, you know, in this window of time if we all sort of, you know, serve the same goal and [SPEAKER_04]: I was promised by Archie that this would not fail. [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to make all of us look, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I did mean the songwriting, but just to say, so how did you all get involved then?

[SPEAKER_02]: How did everybody arrive in this? [SPEAKER_06]: Joe Henry. [SPEAKER_02]: Joe Henry. [SPEAKER_06]: He's well around with this whole. [SPEAKER_02]: When Joe says, we'll do this, you do it. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I can't tell you how to say no to Joe. [SPEAKER_05]: It's very hard to try it. [SPEAKER_05]: I just tried it about 15 minutes ago, and it was very hard.

[SPEAKER_04]: That was well, you come into the radio station, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks Joe. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, again, the short version of that story is that [SPEAKER_04]: My brother David lives in your lovely city and he's a writer and Archie enlisted his help to Work on the screenplay and they approached me about For one doing some music production for the film and At first had asked me if I would take the lead role of the film which I wouldn't do.

[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't think I could do it I didn't believe I could be that character. [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't think I was that character [SPEAKER_04]: But I still wanted to be involved, and I thought that the smartest way for me to be involved was to stack the deck with, you know, my friends and loved ones, and then, you know, and then I could, you know, be like a big net that I could jump into.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, um, based on my wife's suggestion, I threw out John Doe's name to play the lead, and Amy as the, as his counterpart, the female lead in the film. [SPEAKER_04]: And then, once they were in place, it was easy to kind of see who else might, [SPEAKER_04]: You know, uh, take on the other roles and and and then I could understand how it might might might be a feasible vehicle.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's a it's such a cool concept to it and there's something that Archie actually says in the in his Kickstarter video because there was a bit of this movie that was funded by Kickstarter which is always great to see people come through and actually believe in a project like that. [SPEAKER_02]: But he said he didn't want actors playing rockers, but rockers who could act.

[SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, none of the three of us didn't necessarily know if we could act. [SPEAKER_04]: There are two in our camp where real actors and where beforehand, and you have none of them in the room. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry to say that I'm not doing that. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not doing right.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you have the amateurs, but we, I think we all sort of felt of first of all, if somebody asks you to be in a movie, you have to say yes, if Joe Henry is in that movie, and there's part of it you additionally have to say yes. [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, I think we all got sort of shamed into, well, I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna consider saying no, just because you're scared to do it.

[SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_04]: That's my daughter who said that actually she said it you're not really going to say no to this just because you're afraid are you right All out Call out so I'm really here just as an example to my children. [SPEAKER_06]: I have no expectations He's fantastic. [SPEAKER_06]: He's fantastic and as he will tell you [SPEAKER_06]: time after time.

[SPEAKER_06]: He was voted best, says me in of the year to 2000 Rowan High School. [SPEAKER_04]: 37 to go. [SPEAKER_04]: But I just, I parked it right there. [SPEAKER_04]: I said, you know, I don't want this to go bad. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to put it in the deep freeze in some day. [SPEAKER_04]: I want you to take it out.

[SPEAKER_06]: When you play you know, when you play Linus and you're a good man Charlie Brown. [SPEAKER_04]: I played him as Lee J. Cobb, I'm sorry, we are a little bit punch drum. [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no [SPEAKER_06]: She's in the Big Lebaski.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are in the Big Lebaski, that's true. [SPEAKER_06]: And in the Big Lebaski for literally two, seven, two seconds, I do it in a different language. [SPEAKER_06]: And the character is a nihilist, which I interpreted to mean need express zero emotion. [SPEAKER_06]: Need express no emotion.

[SPEAKER_06]: I think as a double negative. [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing how many references we came back to Louisville, because this is just a shibouski town on top of it. [SPEAKER_02]: Have you done any acting before this? [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely not and if you I don't think college counts. [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, there was some there was a little bit of you know Dabbling and I was counting high school and yeah, it was a high school well I was in perhaps you Other have to wait perhaps you might I might not count mine, but anyway, but no, no nothing in front of it I didn't have to know that I was a terrible actor [SPEAKER_06]: And I mean, I really, you know, I did enough to go like, and acting's hard.

[SPEAKER_06]: I couldn't imagine how anybody did it. [SPEAKER_06]: And I did a little bit of just sort of improv stuff with, you know, with Fred Armson and Karen in Portlandia. [SPEAKER_06]: But like, you play yourself. [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to memorize lines. [SPEAKER_06]: And honestly, like, to play the straight man, who just looks bewildered and dumb, it's not, you know, like, that's all, it's a lot easier.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back, it's Kyle Miratt's special rewind episode with Amy Mann, Joe Henry, and Karen Berquist. [SPEAKER_02]: But like music videos though, maybe you've ever done concept music videos. [SPEAKER_06]: When you have to, because don't you have to be a character and that isn't the result of acting as pretty low?

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's not like my rising line, you know, and getting into a character really. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't think that's like having to embody a character other than your own and be authentic. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, in that role to other people, I think that's really really different and that was certainly my apprehension is, you know Can I disappear into a character in some way that's, you know, in service to Archie's story?

[SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't completely sure I could. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I have done enough acting way back to think I understand, you know, what needs to happen. [SPEAKER_04]: I just don't think that I had the had the tools to do it necessarily, but you know [SPEAKER_04]: Once John Doe was a board, he's a, you know, he's a really, really old friend and a friend of Amy's as well and he's really no nonsense and he's, he's really candid and he and Amy both came to my house in California when Archie and Dave and a producer and cameraman Mike Fitzgerald came out for a reading and I said, you know, I'm only going to take this role, [SPEAKER_04]: if John says that I can because you know I'm playing off of him he's he's the lead I'm sort of his sidekick in a way and I knew that if we did the reading and he didn't think I could actually do it in a credible and you know respectful way that he would tell me and um and here you are and here I am

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I gave him plenty of outs. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm like, look, if this doesn't sound good, I'll free this for first time. [SPEAKER_02]: You guys are really selling this. [SPEAKER_04]: Everything about this build up so far. [SPEAKER_02]: Don't want to do it. [SPEAKER_02]: Don't want to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Don't want to do it. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm fine. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I did want to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: I was looking for a reason to be able to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't want to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm quite honestly, you know, all of us have invested a lot in some kind of creative public persona.

[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody wants to just walk by and set fire, too. [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody wants to be in the Mariah Carey's glitter. [SPEAKER_02]: It's what this is coming out to you. [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, honestly, for just being frank, I didn't want to do it if I couldn't be good. [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody wants to go out there and burst themselves and the project.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I just needed to be convinced. [SPEAKER_04]: that I could hold up my end of things, and that Archie would be as tough as he needed to get what he needed, and then he wouldn't be shy with any of us, and I know that he's appreciative that we're here, and I didn't want that to override the fact that there's a job to do, and it can't be about, are we comfortable right now, and see uncomfortable, having to say, I need you to do that again and do it different, but I have to say that having [SPEAKER_04]: both John and Loudon on board, you know, they're, they're real actors, and so you're able to help each other out.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it sounds very helpful. [SPEAKER_04]: Sure. [SPEAKER_04]: But it's just like being in a, you know, in a band with somebody who's really good, it pulls everybody out. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, and if anybody who's in a scene with Loudon, even if you're in the room, while it seems happening, you know, what he does with, with two words, you know, it's, it's a constant sort of, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: realignment of your thinking of what's possible rather than just thinking, you know, I have to somehow overpower the script with, you know, a big concept of whom I character is, you know, he just distills something really quickly and really authentically and every time I watch him do that, I'm sort of, you know, you know,

[SPEAKER_04]: I get reliant and it's a big thing and Archie's notion of having musicians who can act versus actors who can play musicians, especially in something that's kind of communal, you know, this is a real ensemble piece in a way, even though Amy and John's characters are the focal point of the [SPEAKER_04]: people play musicians who aren't really, you know, there are people who I could name and I won't.

[SPEAKER_04]: Who have been in films, playing, you know, great actors, playing musicians who are now, that's what I do. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we just don't look, you know, and even in the most subtle way, you know, just burst the bubble for you and you say, I know that that person has practiced and had a coach, but they are clearly not, [SPEAKER_04]: You know, a real musician, they don't play that instrument, and it really deflates the tires.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think Archie's idea that that part of it has to be authentic, or the whole thing will fall down. [SPEAKER_04]: So to try to find people who could stand there and be true to that element of the story, and yet still deliver a line when somebody says, go, was it amazing how hard it is to act naturally?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_06]: I was just talking to Karen about this, the thing that I'm finding, I mean it's a real indie film, it's a bit guerrilla style and the hours are so long and they're so little time when they're setting up a thing and it's not unlimited takes that it's [SPEAKER_06]: You don't really have time to be self conscious and worry about it.

[SPEAKER_06]: Just like, you know, I'm going to improv. [SPEAKER_06]: It's going to happen. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't necessarily know what I'm doing, but here we go. [SPEAKER_06]: Here we go. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so I think it's weirdly. [SPEAKER_06]: It's been easier. [SPEAKER_06]: It's a lot easier than I thought.

[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, me and Joe were really that first seen that we did. [SPEAKER_06]: We were pretty nervous. [SPEAKER_06]: But I think we got over that really fast. [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of rehearsals before that before. [SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [SPEAKER_06]: We just jumped in with both feet and for the baths.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's amazing. [SPEAKER_06]: Blindfold it, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, you just hope your director is like, you know, look, the director is going to have to look. [SPEAKER_06]: So the camera and tell me how it looks and if it doesn't look good, you know, I'll do it. [SPEAKER_06]: I'll do it some other way, but yeah.

[SPEAKER_06]: But you know, I mean, my thing, I feel very self-conscious about, quote, acting and I just thought, I'm just like, you know what, I don't have time for that. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't care. [SPEAKER_06]: Let's go. [SPEAKER_05]: Right, right. [SPEAKER_05]: And you kind of usually have to trust the people behind the camera by the lens because there's no other.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, if they say it looks good, then let's say, OK, OK. A big difference, though, I'll say from, you know, there's a lot of things about making a record and making a movie that are, you know, common. [SPEAKER_04]: But there are a couple of key aspects that are really, really different, and the biggest one for me, they said, I'm a record producer as well, which is analogous to being a film director.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, that's the sort of the same job, I don't know why they call it producing that directing. [SPEAKER_04]: But you do something, and people are trusting you, and yet you still offer a playback, and people listen, and make comments about what they've just done, and everybody needs to be in some kind of agreement that this is what we meant to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: Now let's move on, as opposed to acting in a scene, and then you look up and actually go, hey, that's great, let's move on. [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like if we were making a record if I was producing Karen or Amiens, and they do a take, and say, I'm not gonna play it back for you, but trust me.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's good, you're going to like your record in here. [SPEAKER_04]: That part of it's really different because you don't have anything to reference except that I trust Archie and I think at this point I know when he's just, you know, that's the best we're going to do versus that's really what I wanted and I try to read that as best I can and make sure before we move on that, you know, is that, you know, that's good as I can do and is that really as good as you need it to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: and we'll be right back right after this. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back, it's Kyle Miritt, special rewind episode with Amy Man, Joe Henry, and Karen Perquist. [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that, you know, you're talking about parallels because it's some of the other parallels that go along.

[SPEAKER_02]: The movie is about, in a sense, collaborations, which is something you're all familiar with and everything, but to have something, excuse me, to have something when you're thrown in, I mean, it's hard enough to make an organized band succeed. [SPEAKER_02]: But to have this act, this band, whatever you call it, totally built on chaos, you know, in hopes that something's going to happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, have you ever actually been in any of those situations? [SPEAKER_06]: Both of those, yeah, I mean, every story band is kind of like that. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, I, [SPEAKER_06]: I've been really fascinated recently by the idea of group dynamics and what a weird mystery that is.

[SPEAKER_06]: You add in one extra person or substitute one extra person, the whole thing changes. [SPEAKER_06]: And you really have to end recording, you know, this joke, because this was totally your thing. [SPEAKER_06]: But you have to sense where the group needs to go and allow everybody to go there.

[SPEAKER_06]: Instead of coming in with an e-dick to that you're trying to force. [SPEAKER_06]: And this group to go to match up with, [SPEAKER_06]: It's fascinating, I mean, and just being part of the movie with all the players and the people, I mean, it's fascinating to see the group dynamics and, you know, amongst all of the actors.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it's also important to know that what's happening in real time on the set is your main to the narrative, because, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: the actors in this case are all musicians and they are coming from really really different places and they are actually, you know, we're asked them to really play the music, you know, it's not being created by someone, you know, somewhere else and then, you know, we're lip syncing to it or anything.

[SPEAKER_04]: The music that's happening in the movie is actually having to happen in our [SPEAKER_04]: real little universe here, you know, as it does in the story, you know, we've had to, you know, try to find a way for us all to play together in some way that is musical. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not just about, you know, what I would personally like to hear if I was, you know, playing myself in real life and trying to direct, you know, a moment in a studio like this, because the song is a character in the story.

[SPEAKER_04]: And what it becomes has to, you know, have some kind of integrity that's [SPEAKER_04]: rooted in the narrative. [SPEAKER_04]: It's not just about what I want to hear. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like does this sound like what these people would sound like when they got there? [SPEAKER_04]: You know?

[SPEAKER_02]: So a very meta sort of way. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you guys are living the real story and this is the whole thing as the real story. [SPEAKER_05]: It's unfolding before our very eyes. [SPEAKER_06]: Because their players with varying degrees of styles and ability and it is fascinating to see and Joe's sort of directing this, too, as the producer.

[SPEAKER_06]: But what is its best self that the group can be with these weird elements and sometimes very strange instrumentation to them? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I was talking with Karen this morning about a vocal she did on a song the other day about the fact that, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying that her performance was too good for the character, but it's accomplished in a way that is different than the character perhaps.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's just, I bring that up to say, that's sort of what we're wrestling with constantly is, is that what that character was sound like, not what is caring capable of, but how can she believably embody where that character is along the arc of this story? [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a tricky thing to cut loose some part of your own sensibility, because we're all trained just like this is what I mean and this is how and what I need to get there versus well this is where I would go if you know if I was producing Karen Burke was singing this song, you know, [SPEAKER_05]: It's really, and it's really hard to let go of years and years of what you have learned works for you and what you think you should do in the hours that you've put in and just sort of set that aside and approach it as the novice character that you think, how you think your character.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's difficult. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I don't envy you that, you know, like to set aside any part of being as great as you are to say like what would read of the Lounge singer who maybe has not had the experience and maybe doesn't, yeah, to, you know, and then to know that maybe you're not going to sound exactly as great as you are.

[SPEAKER_06]: I don't, I don't know if I could do that. [SPEAKER_06]: I paid you to say that too. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just imagining that, you know, it shows in Karen you sound lovely. [SPEAKER_02]: Could you please turn the suck button up just a little bit? [SPEAKER_06]: Did you sing a little more out of tune?

[SPEAKER_06]: Maybe yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I brought it this morning because there's some, there's a part of Karen's voice that I know really well that I think, you know, that's something that's [SPEAKER_04]: completely unique to her singular voice. [SPEAKER_04]: And I hear it in moments and say, to me that gives away a little bit that you have a finesse, you've developed a finesse that's your own, that this character hasn't had that kind of experience to have gotten there as a singular performer.

[SPEAKER_04]: making records is just as funny as making movies and I mean that in the best possible way it's not sure. [SPEAKER_04]: It is all theater. [SPEAKER_06]: It will take that as popular. [SPEAKER_04]: Now we're sitting in the studio and somebody says, look, I just want to keep it real. [SPEAKER_04]: I go, well, you know, my house because there's nothing about this that's real, you know, that $10,000 microphone in front of you is not you keeping it real.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, that's us trying to create an illusion of some kind of, you know, Sonic landscape, you know, on which the song might actually, you know, the story of the song was going to take place. [SPEAKER_04]: Right. [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, there's a part of what we do day-to-day musicians that is about illusion in the same way that making a film is about illusion.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, people don't, you know, people don't care about the truth. [SPEAKER_04]: People just want to be seduced. [SPEAKER_04]: you know me and when it connects me uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh

[SPEAKER_06]: It's, you know, I mean, they're degrees. [SPEAKER_06]: The songwriting. [SPEAKER_06]: It's sort of like the movie social network, which is virtually fictional, but there's a true thing in it that's not about what really happened, but about, you know, it rings true, you know, it rings true, the dynamics all ring true, the story rings true, in a way that is more impactful probably than, you know, that what actually went down.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, maybe I sounded flip when I said that I didn't mean to because when I say that we're trying to, you know, that it's, that it's staged just as much as any film, I mean I think sometimes you have to just sort of disappear into an idea and it's not really about anybody's. [SPEAKER_04]: you know, true reality.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we're all referencing it. [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody playing a role in a movie is still using, you know, I mean, your body is your instrument. [SPEAKER_04]: It's your vehicle. [SPEAKER_04]: It's what it's what it's the tool that you have. [SPEAKER_04]: And yet you're still trying to, you know, create an illusion.

[SPEAKER_04]: Even if you've written a song that is based in, you know, a real moment of your life is a certain point when you're writing it, I believe. [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, we all have different philosophies about how we get there. [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's a real part of it for me as a songwriter that really is about disappearing into it.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I don't write a song to serve myself as an artistic persona. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, my deepest desire is to write a song that is persuasive enough that I, Joe Henry, could disappear. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, great. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, it's interesting you put it that way too because all three of you have had, well, extremely great careers and very interesting careers, you know, all the past you've taken the control you have all three of you over your own career, you've tasted a little bits of [SPEAKER_02]: start him tiny more what what do we call it at this point and with the control you have though is is that ever this goes back to the the John Doe character the John Doe characters trying to come back

[SPEAKER_02]: So it is that something, you know, his character wants to do it come back. [SPEAKER_02]: You guys have, you know, whatever it's been you've been there is that a thing is that when when you're doing this when you're talking about, you know, writing the song to disappear into to connect, you know, someone else is going to take that run away with it, but is it ever to be in that height of things again?

[SPEAKER_06]: What is it, or are we aspirational to a film? [SPEAKER_02]: It really isn't that kind of question, right? [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's dangerous to set your sights on that. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not, I'm not clapping out. [SPEAKER_05]: I think for me personally, my sights need to be set on discovery.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that's why I write, I write to discover. [SPEAKER_05]: And if I just put my head down, [SPEAKER_05]: and focus on the work. [SPEAKER_05]: That's a good place for me to live. [SPEAKER_05]: If I start putting my head up in the clouds and looking around and wondering what if I lose sight of all the wonderful things that I have within my reach.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm really not copping out, but that's I really do believe that. [SPEAKER_05]: But it's taken me 45 years to get there. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think that's the absolutely, and even in smaller ways, like, you know, or is somebody going to like this song or, you know, suppose my friend hears this and thinks it's about, you know, like, the second you start thinking outside what is in front of you, you wander off the path and, you know, yes, for me, I can't think about this.

[SPEAKER_06]: I don't even know what fame means anymore. [SPEAKER_06]: In terms of, you know, like, it's indie musicians, what we're doing, I mean, do you really want to be on the, you know, the MTV Music Awards? [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, my god, like, I know, like, you have to worry about that. [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be great if I'll three of you are on the TV show.

[SPEAKER_06]: I can't think of a better, bigger nightmare at this point. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you know, like, I'm just happy, like there's, you know, there's always like the next thing to do. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, what's the next thing to do to make a record to write a song? [SPEAKER_06]: Somebody calls you and says, [SPEAKER_06]: do you want to be in a movie I mean you just say yeah you say yes to stuff and there's always going to be things to say yes to well like you know God willing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well when you get asked to do something that's I mean aside from just getting up in the morning and just trying to write whatever song might you know offer itself you know [SPEAKER_04]: In your path, anytime I've been called to work on a song for a movie or produce something for a film, even if you do it and it doesn't get used, you still do something you would have never done otherwise, which is what's great about any kind of collaboration, you're asked to co-write with somebody or be in a movie like this.

[SPEAKER_04]: you're being invited to engage in a way that you wouldn't have on your own and none of that's wasted but as far as your your your your question about you know fame and popularity and and such I mean there's a real part of that that um [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, look, we've all been asked if you're doing this professionally to learn to value what you're doing by how many people are paying to hear it and how many people are showing up.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm just going to tell you that, I've been seduced by that and demoralized by it as much as anybody, but I'm going to tell you also that that's death to an artist. [SPEAKER_04]: That notion that what I'm doing has value only in as much as people immediately respond [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you're finished.

[SPEAKER_04]: If I find myself writing a song and thinking about how anybody's going to react to it, you know, whether it's an imagined audience or my wife or my manager or my son or my brother, I'm done for the day. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you're finished. [SPEAKER_04]: If you are already imagining how this is going to be received, because it's just become...

[SPEAKER_06]: uh... vanity at that point already in in the results which you have no control over now so you're already real you know worrying and putting your energy into the part that you have zero control over instead of the part you have control over which is finishing your song we do not sit on the results committee no nobody does and what i said that that's really a great thing about the big crash of the record industry if i may that especially for people you know more like us than if you were sitting here talking to sting though why would you be talking to sting [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean is that, you know, there was a moment in the past when, you know, so called Triple A radio was supposed to be offering, you know, a slightly, you know, unguarded door left.

[SPEAKER_04]: Partially a jar for people like us, you know, only one of us done that all three of us would be allowed to walk through You know, there's only so much room in life boat, but you know the idea of that That that we all had to we were all asked at some point to say, you know [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I love your record, but there's, is there anything we can go to radio with?

[SPEAKER_04]: And at the point when it became as, as obvious to the rest of the industry as it was always obvious to me, that I didn't really have a relationship to radio, stations like yours notwithstanding, because you guys been tremendously supportive, and I would say that even if I wasn't sitting here in your town, but I'm saying as a rule, you know, as soon as we didn't even have to pretend, [SPEAKER_04]: that a radio station was going to, you know, play a song of mine.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'd just speak for myself. [SPEAKER_04]: And then if I gave it to him, it was a little bit faster and a little less sad ass. [SPEAKER_04]: And and if it was three minutes long, it said nine minutes long, that they would actually play my records. [SPEAKER_04]: Once I was able to stop, or I was, uh, uh, [SPEAKER_04]: aware that people were not going to ask me to pretend that was true, then I was completely liberated.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, you know, great, you know, that never really existed for me anyway. [SPEAKER_04]: So let's stop pretending like it does and I want you to do my work. [SPEAKER_04]: And as soon as that, you know, one extra voice disappears from your head, you know, you know, that's some real clutter that's gone.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because that is not a big step of life. [SPEAKER_04]: That voice is not a little voice. [SPEAKER_04]: It's not your friend when you're trying to create something. [SPEAKER_05]: I put it in a Mason jar and screw the lid on and put it on the shelf. [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_06]: And it is amazing how infectious that can be even if you don't care about it or try to avoid it.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I was a little surprised, because we talked about this before, but I went through a last year where I had someone close to me saying, I really hope your next record is going to be really different. [SPEAKER_06]: than your other records and and uh... you know i thought i was a person who is like you know i can shine on the opinions and the thoughts and you know desires of other other other people and you know in my work but you know and i would of course you you're writing a song you're like i'm really like this uh... i wonder if it's different [SPEAKER_06]: Is it different?

[SPEAKER_06]: Well, it feels, I think it's different, but is it, is it different enough? [SPEAKER_06]: What, what does different even mean? [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of directions you can go in different. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. [SPEAKER_06]: Does that mean, like, more sort of weird and indie?

[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, and maybe different means, and he just described yourself crazy. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was a person who was very close to me, in his opinion, I valued and sure. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, and I, I, I mean, I could not believe that I was having these thoughts, and it was, it was really hard to get to get out of that, because, uh, [SPEAKER_06]: You know, suddenly you're looking at yourself through somebody else's eyes.

[SPEAKER_06]: And then once you do that, oh my God, it's impossible. [SPEAKER_05]: That's impossible. [SPEAKER_05]: Was this person from the Midwest by chance? [SPEAKER_05]: Because when we say different back here about, you know what it means. [SPEAKER_05]: It means we don't understand. [SPEAKER_07]: We don't understand.

[SPEAKER_06]: No, they thought that they thought I should go into some other different direction and I'm like I don't know what you know always that even I was intending that this record would would sound different than you know than the last one, but What does that mean? [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds different to me, but maybe not to you.

[SPEAKER_06]: You know, I mean you just to oh like different to maybe this different in a bad way. [SPEAKER_06]: Sure, okay [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's crazy, but see, okay, so I've also had too much coffee at this point. [SPEAKER_04]: No, but you know, I completely hear you because, you know, as soon as you're thinking about, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: what else it should be than what you would normally you know then where you would go creatively on your own you know listen to your own voice and following it you know you're not you're not in that same creative mode anymore you know you're trying to adopt somebody else's on your behalf you try to think of somebody else's brain but I think the real you know one of the real beauties of of being able to last long enough you know I had this talk with Michelle and

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we were both, we were talking about Duke Ellington and the fact that some of my favorite music that he wrote was towards the end of his life and he think, you know, in our racket and it's harder all the time, you know, how do you sort of trick people into continuing to patronize you long enough?

[SPEAKER_04]: to where you might actually get good at what you do. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I'm 51 and I've made a dozen records of my own and I've worked on lots of other records. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think I'm only now just getting to the point where I think I know what good might look like for me, you know?

[SPEAKER_04]: And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, [SPEAKER_04]: And as a part of it, we just say, you know, I'm, I'm old enough. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have to be all things to all people. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you want to hear something more up tempo, go piece up and all sound. [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of things.

[SPEAKER_04]: But there was a point when people would say, I love your record. [SPEAKER_04]: We need another upbeat song. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And I just let them write it. [SPEAKER_05]: That just doesn't hurt. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I've just, I've liberated myself from that concern. [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I just like, you know, I don't care if the whole record's slow and in the key of D, you know, is it engaging to me? [SPEAKER_04]: If I keep wanting to go back, does it tell the story? [SPEAKER_04]: Is it the movie I wanted it to be, you know, as a full statement? [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's really hard to get there unless you've been doing it long enough for you realize that all those kind of opinions like Amy just described are a completely beside the point.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's really hard to hear that truth, you know, when you're younger and you're surrounded by people that you depend on, you know, like only by the grace of this label or this publisher am I allowed to work, but, you know, in equal measure to the crash of the industry, [SPEAKER_04]: You know, as we knew it, which I'm happy about it, it needed to happen.

[SPEAKER_04]: But at the same time, it's being met by a shift in technology that allows people to do all kind of work, sitting in their apartment, sitting in their basement, wherever, who are not beholden to a record label to say, we are now going to give you a small amount of money to allow you to go do what you do.

[SPEAKER_04]: do what you do. [SPEAKER_04]: And I love the idea of more and more artists being able to create something and then go to a label as an example and say, not here's what I'm going to do. [SPEAKER_04]: Here's what I have done. [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to be involved? [SPEAKER_04]: And you're not offering them a master pass key into your work.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like, yeah, we want to do it, but we want to hook you up with this producer, though. [SPEAKER_04]: You guys turn your headsets off for a second. [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody needs to produce, or you can't just go around by yourself, make an arrangement without somebody guiding you. [SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, the young people have a lot there who might make him suffer a little bit.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's really important that people are able to work without having to ask anybody's permission to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: And that's been the big shift that people don't talk about when they talk about the great crash. [SPEAKER_04]: Because what that really means is the great crash is that people are, hopefully not allowed to just live [SPEAKER_04]: You know, off of this crazy excess that just digs a bigger hole for everybody and then what would look like a success, you know, in a reasonable world looks like failure.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's something T-Bombard, that told me a long time ago. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, Joey, you let people spend money on your behalf like this, even though when you're young, you think that means it's indicative of how much they believe in you. [SPEAKER_04]: But they're just digging a hole that you may never climb out of.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're just trying to get your own job. [SPEAKER_04]: A new band that sells 100,000 records, you know, everybody ought to be popping champagne corks, but if the label has spent, you know, three million dollars to make and market that record, you know, at the bottom of the of the printout sheet, you know.

[SPEAKER_04]: You just look like a disaster, and you're finished as far as that label is concerned. [SPEAKER_04]: We've all seen it happen to people that we know and love, whose work didn't diminish, but the perception of the work diminished because the false stakes of the game were how they decided to determine success in failure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm glad you're fine. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad you all have stuck it out the way you did. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm extremely thankful for all the music you've done and more importantly, the way you've done it because it really is noticeable out of here. [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for coming in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: The movie pleased to meet me. [SPEAKER_02]: You're working on it. [SPEAKER_02]: There's obviously I'm guessing no release date or anything like that, but we're going to keep our ear to the ground on all of that and I'm expecting a heck of a soundtrack too. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's being talked about as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think that's part of Archie's master plan is that Karen and Amy and I and John and Loudon will somehow do something once the movie is wrapped that will be a companion piece, but hopefully also exist on its own as a musical work of integrity of some sort. [SPEAKER_04]: Fantastic.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you all so much. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much. [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, thanks to the station for having us. [SPEAKER_02]: There you go. [SPEAKER_02]: My thanks again to Amy Man, Joe Henry, Karen Burke-Wist, and to you for checking out the episode in the series. [SPEAKER_02]: I hit that subscribe button if you're not ready before you get out of here so you can keep up with all the interviews that I put out every single week at Spotify, Apple podcast, NPR, WFPK.org, consequence, YouTube for the video versions or anywhere you get your podcast from.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can subscribe to Kyle, Meredith, with and please to give this series a rating and [SPEAKER_02]: After that, you can head over to WFPK.org, where I do a show Monday through Friday, starting 6pm Eastern, 4 hours of classics from the 80s and 90s, you get the best in new music, bonus interviews, lots of music news.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of my recent shows, features in classics and favorites, from Neil Young. [SPEAKER_02]: I can Tina, Julian Lennon, Beck, garbage, the pretenders, Robert Francis, St. Seneca, a BBO sound machine, Green Day, Tyler Ballgame, Bob Seeger, John Hyatt, and my interviews with Keefer Sutherland, Kevin Bacon, and Jared Leto.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what you get when you turn in week 9, starting 6 p.m. Eastern at WFPK.ORG. [SPEAKER_02]: Consequence has your music and film news. [SPEAKER_02]: You can also find me on any of the social media site. [SPEAKER_02]: The address is always at Kyle Meredith Please do like and follow along.

[SPEAKER_02]: That does it for another edition. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Kyle Meredith. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll see you next time [SPEAKER_00]: Consequence podcast network, it's easy to hear your favorite artist on WFPK from wherever you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Listen on your smart speaker, live stream from our website at WFPK.org from Louisville Public Media.

Rewind: Aimee Mann, Joe Henry & Karin Bergquist on Pleased to Meet Me, Chasing Fame, and Commercial Validation

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