Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman

0:50 Welcome back. Today we're heading into plague-ravaged medieval France with Christopher Buhlman's Between Two Fires, a book full of demons, suffering, terrifying encounters with the sacred, and people who somehow keep finding reasons to care for one another. And we loved it, which gives us an interesting place to begin.

1:11 Peter is Buddhist. I'm pagan. And this book takes Christian cosmology seriously. So what happens when a story rooted in a faith you don't practice gets under your skin and breaks your heart a little? We're talking about a disgraced knight, a mysterious girl, and a deeply human priest. We're asking whether violence can protect goodness without destroying it, whether forgiveness has limits, and whether religious authority deserves our trust simply because it calls itself holy.

1:42 And eventually we're putting a question on trial. Does between two fires earn its redemption? We'll start with a little spoiler-free love for the book, then give you fair warning before we walk straight into the darkness. Bring your questions. Apparently, we're going to need them. Okay, Peter. This is such a multi-layered book.

2:01 I knew that I wasn't going to be able to synopsize it, so that's your job.

2:05 Yeah, and I think that I need the uh first part of the book's help to do this, so I am going to read how this book opens up real quick. Now in these days the Lord God had turned his face from the business of men, and the angels who had remained loyal to him said to one another, We must look after the children of Adam, and they did so as best they could.

2:25 Now also the third part of the angels who had rebelled looked upon the earth and saw the hand of God withdrawn from it, and the air was cold in the valleys of men, and the sea was also cold. And one of the fallen angels, whose name was Uziel, said, It was for man's sake that we were cast down, for we would not bend our knee to him.

2:44 Let us test the Lord and see what he will do if we inflict their mightiest kingdoms with hunger. And the spikes of wheat and the ears of barley were heavy with that rain, and they fell into the mud, or withered, or went to rot, and the livestock were made sick, and they died in great numbers, and in their turn the children of Adam knew hunger, and men devoured all there was, and there was no more, and many died, and some would go into the dead yard and eat of the newly buried, and the babes born during those years who lived to be children had only twenty two teeth, and the Lord made no answer.

3:20 Now another of the fallen, whose name was Beliel, said, It was for man's sake that the war began in heaven, so let us try them with wars in their greatest kingdoms. And he rose to the wells of a king who ruled a mighty island, and blew pride into his mouth. And then when the king spoke, he swore that he would have the crown of an even greater kingdom, which he would take with the sword.

3:41 And so he came upon his neighbour's shore under arms and with banners. Now the greater king, seeing that his land was in peril, sent out a mighty host in armor of iron and silver, and they rode against the men of the island who shot them with arrows, even through their armor, and they died. And so the long war began, and the Lord made no answer.

4:00 So it came that the first among the fallen, whose name was Lucifer, said, Our old enemy sleeps. If we do not seize this hour, we will come to the end of days as he has written them, and he will grind us under his heel and destroy us forever. Let us rise against him now in all our numbers, and pull the walls of heaven down, and shake out the souls of the just, and let us seize our brother angels by the throat and cast them down into hell, and let us live as once we did upon the great heights.

4:28 But some were fearful of the power of the angels of God, whose numbers were greater, and whose generals were Uriel and Gabriel and Michael, who had broken the back of Lucifer and sent him into the hot coals in the bellies of the earth, to blacken his face with soot, and know he was lower than the Lord.

4:45 And some were fearful that God would wake from his slumber, his drowsiness, and rack them with pains and fires even they had not learned to endure or destroy them utterly. And the first among the fallen spoke to them, saying, Then let us test him one more time. It is for man's sake that we were insulted, for his sake that we were driven out, and for his peace that we are mortared under.

5:08 Let us break the roof of hell with our fists and murder the seed of Adam. For if God will not rouse himself to save his favorite creature, his sleep is deep, and we may catch him by the hair and cast him down. And one of the fallen, whose name was Azazel, said, Shall we kill them with fire or with cold?

5:28 And Lucifer spoke to him, saying, Neither of these. What then said the wicked angel? With a great plague, answered Lucifer, and so it was. And the years that had passed since the Lord had come to be born among men were 1,348. So that's a fairly long way to say that this book is set in the bubonic plague era, with the backdrop of spiritual warfare going on between angels and demons.

5:53 And the story primarily centers around three people a disgraced knight named Tomas, a mysterious young girl who speaks to angels and performs miracles named Delphine, and a compromised priest that they meet along the way.

6:06 Named Matthew.

6:08 Yes. And they go on a spiritual pilgrimage ultimately to Avignon en France and all the things that happen along the way as they sort of follow this young girl and learn to put their faith in her.

6:22 Right. Okay, so we're gonna go into our copile right now and go through some of our spoiler-free things. And you just mentioned the three main characters, and we start with characters. I love this. It feels very Canterbury Tales meets Dante's Inferno, and I say that because of the plague aspect. There is this pilgrimage going on, and Tomas is good and then very, very flawed.

6:50 And he was a knight, and now he's not a knight anymore. And I love him as a character because he's very vulnerable, he's sometimes childish, but at his heart, still noble in what he wants to do. And so I love Tomas. I love Delphine, she is a mysterious character. She's like a, I don't know, very ambiguous character.

7:11 We can't quite define her for a long time, and then pieces start falling into place. So it's very mysterious in that way. And then my favorite character in a lot of ways was Matthew, the priest, because he represented the church on this pilgrimage, but he knew himself to be what the church would consider a sinner.

7:35 He knew himself to be very fallible, and it is just a real journey for him to recognize and see himself, as well as the journey for Tomas and Delphine. So I really loved all three of the main characters. Of course, there are other characters, but those are really the ones that you become attached to.

7:52 Right. Yeah. And they represent three different aspects of faith. Tomas is deeply disillusioned with his faith and with mankind in general.

7:59 Right.

7:59 Delphine is clearly all about her faith. I mean, she is in touch with angels themselves and she just believes with her whole heart. And then there's Matthew, who represents the best intentions of a person with faith, yet deeply flawed in many ways.

8:17 Right.

8:17 And I thought that was an interesting balance of caricature in this story. And they are the three main characters, which therefore they're the three developed characters in the story.

8:27 Right. And I feel like in a lot of ways, and I know I get like this a lot, I got like this with Lord of the Flies, and there are a lot of times where I'm looking for these biblical illusions because they're so prevalent in literature. But I feel like it's very Trinitarian. And if I were going to make it very Trinitarian, you know, I would clearly put Tomas kind of in a father state, and then we'll go on from there.

8:50 But I I feel like there's a Trinitarian thing going on.

8:52 Yeah, I think you might be right with that intentionally, yeah. So atmosphere-wise, oh my God. Uh he does so well with creating the atmosphere in this, it really could make you sick to your stomach. Right. I mean, the historical details. Yeah.

9:06 I'm a history person, and so I mean, it was spot on. I always worry when a book's gonna go into historical fiction that it's going to just mess it up. And he knew his stuff. This is very medieval, it's very much the plague, and then it has all the historical characters in it too.

9:24 And it manages to include all of those details without becoming bland, without feeling like he's showing off his historical knowledge. Yeah, it's not verbose in that way. Accurate to the the horror of the plague.

9:37 Right.

9:37 And then therefore, the writing I thought I love the writing. It it felt so poetic. It was just so beautiful. I mean, even that little part that I read in the beginning, I just thought that that was so it was poetry, you know, and the Lord made no answer, and the Lord still made no answer. I mean, it just reminded me of poetry.

9:53 Right. Well, he is a poet as well. Christopher Buhlman is. So he does definitely have that poetic sense. And I'm with you, you know, sometimes things can become very burdensome if someone gets too poetic, if someone gets too historical. This is such a beautiful blend. Now, in fairness, the first part of the book I felt like I was plodding along, but I kind of felt like that's the way you were supposed to feel as they were starting their journey, and they really had no sense of purpose.

10:23 And so there were times where I felt very much like, oh my goodness, like this is painful. Like all the things they're going through, and it kind of went on this slower pace. And then the last half of the book, it just picked up and flew forward with all the things that were happening and kind of all the climactic moments and everything else.

10:41 And that is not a criticism negatively of the book. It's just it really takes you on that journey as a reader. And so I wasn't sure if I'd like it at first, and then I was like sold.

10:51 I think that's very intentional. It's one of the main themes of this book, journey before destination.

10:56 Uh-huh.

10:56 And I think we'll discuss that later on. But this book is all about the journey. And so I I really believe it had to feel that way for us to develop along with the characters and change as they change. Uh, plot-wise, oh boy, this plot is so intricate and gets better and better and better. Like you say, at first we're like, okay, what's going on here?

11:16 Yeah, what's happening?

11:17 But the further they they take this journey in faith, the more they begin to put their faith in Delphine, the more things begin to happen.

11:27unknown Right.

11:27 The faster things begin to happen. It's their resistance at first that slows down their progress.

11:35 And Delphine's growth is in tandem with that, right? Yes. So Delphine has to grow and then they have to put their trust in her on some level. And so it's like this dual thing going on. And I think he does a beautiful job of marrying all these different elements in these characters and these plot lines, both the fantasy horror with the historical.

11:58 And the plot just is is well conceived. He had to have mapped that out all over the wall or something. I mean, it is very complex.

12:06 And intrigue, the intrigue comes from okay, what is the demon's agenda here on Earth with man and the machinations that they are putting into play to basically torment and deceive mankind in the midst of this horrible plague? And also Delphine, what is her relationship in all of this? At times she seems to be taken over by another person, and it's like, what's going on there?

12:29 Where is her power coming from? Why her? Why has she been chosen for this?

12:34 Right. And then also Tomas' background and the horrible things that happen to him that get revealed very slowly. And there is definitely an intrigue related to who he is, who he will become, you know, what his journey is all about. And so I feel like he's a very mysterious character. And Mathew is kind of hanging out there in a lot of ways.

12:56 People are constantly airing his dirty laundry, and he's very vulnerable the entire journey. But there is an element of intrigue with him as well to really know who he is as a person. So it really is an intrigue of character discovery and then coming upon that ultimate spiritual conflict.

13:14 Logic. I this, okay, so obviously we're dealing with supernatural elements. Okay, so that throws logic out the window in certain circumstances. However, I think the logic really comes into play with the pace of the journey. Did we move too fast from one place to another? Did we go from doubt to faith too quickly and unbelievably?

13:34 And I feel like there was just enough pushback from Tomas and even Matthew uh to make that feel logical to me. Like they they really do struggle. They push back very often. And even when they see certain things, it changes them only so much until they see more and more and more, and then they cannot deny.

13:51 And so I do think he felt he followed a logical progression.

13:55 Right. I think that is very, very true. Now, that is not to say there won't be times in this book when you're like, what the hell is happening? Sometimes literally, and you'll be wondering like, how is this and what? And are they dreaming? Like, or is this like a real thing that's happening? So there are those moments because that's what you're dealing with when you're dealing with the magical realism slash fantasy elements in this story, but it is very human.

14:18 And in that way, the progression of these characters is beautifully realistic and logical.

14:23 And I enjoyed it very much.

14:25 Yeah, the enjoyment part right there at the end, I did. Like I enjoyed this so much that I immediately went to school and in my department, I looked at one of my um colleagues that I know loves this type of literature, and I was like, you have to read this. You have to read this so we can discuss it.

14:41 And he's already read it and we have been discussing it because it is such a good book. So, yes, enjoyment was there 100%.

14:47 And without spoiling the ending, you know, this would be one of those books that you might feel trepidatious about reading because it just sounds so dark and heavy, and ultimately you fear it's just gonna be so tragic, and you're just gonna be left with this feeling of, ugh. And I was not left with that feeling.

15:01 I left, I left with great inner peace over the ending.

15:05 Right. I agree. So if you're worried at all, you've seen the cover of this book, you've read the name, you've seen the medieval horror thing, and you're worried at all about being left with that icky feeling that Peter is talking about, don't worry about that. There's certainly going to be very disturbing moments in this book, but I think you'll be happy with the ending too.

15:25 And for those people who don't like to be scared by what they read, did you feel like this book was scary?

15:30 No, I never had that moment. I mean, it was scary, but in a spiritual human sense, not in a gratuitous, like I was gonna jump out of my seat sense. I mean, I listened to this as I was driving around doing Amazon Flex in the dark, and I wasn't feeling scared. And you know I'm a scaredy cat when it comes to that stuff.

15:46 Right.

15:46 Yeah. Yeah. So it's good. Yeah. So you can you can do this. All right. On that note, we are going to leave our spoiler-free section. We have so much to talk about. So we will catch you on the flip side. Okay, quick pause. Because if you're still listening, you clearly have excellent taste or questionable judgment.

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16:54 All right, Peter. So the two of us reading this book feels a little like a joke, like a Buddhist, a pagan, and a Christian walked into a bar or went on a trip together. So I think we need to address some of the spiritual aspects of this. I'm gonna kick it over to you to talk about that a little bit.

17:09 Yeah, I think I think we have to get a little personal in this episode in order to really dive deep into the themes of this book and the messages that we got out of it. Without this being an attack on Christianity, right, in any way, shape, or form, I really feel like my journey to deconstruct my Christian faith and the message of this book really correlate with one another well.

17:30 And in order to get into that message, I I'll just tell you as briefly as possible how I deconstructed my faith. So as a Christian, I became a Christian primarily because of the teachings of Jesus and the works of Jesus spoke to me. And so throughout my young adulthood to adulthood and my studying of the Bible, I always read the Bible through the lens of Jesus' teaching.

17:55 Right.

17:56 So my understanding of the old covenant was always seen through the eyes of the new covenant.

18:02 Right.

18:03 And that is how I lived my faith out and the values that formed who I am were formed through Jesus' teachings. And so it wasn't until later on in life when I began to see that there were many people who called themselves Christians who seemed to do it the opposite way. Right. And they would interpret the new covenant through the lens of the old covenant.

18:25 And that allowed them to support their conservative ideals and their conservative values.

18:30 Or they're just personal agendas, conservative or not. It was very self, it could be very self-serving.

18:36 And I saw that not only did a lot of Christians fall under that umbrella, but the church itself as an organization seemed to embrace that attitude and that mindset, both politically and spiritually, towards the Bible, which caused me to then step back and drop that lens that I always saw the Bible through, that that apologetics lens that I always read the Old Testament through.

18:57 And apologetics, if you do not know that word, is the term used to describe the theological defense of certain parts of Scripture or dogma of your faith. Uh that are challenged. Yes. The theological explanations to basically explain certain parts of scripture that are complicated or problematic, some might say, and certain dogmas.

19:16 And as I dropped that lens and just started reading the Old Testament or Old Covenant on its own merit, I saw in in no way, shape, or form could the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Judaism be blended. Yes, be uh compatible with one another. In no way, shape, or form could they be compatible. And when I started looking at the data instead of the dogma, it all started falling apart.

19:43 And so then I was left with the teachings of Jesus, the red letter parts of the Bible, and those values, and that slowly started to draw me towards another spirituality, and that was Buddhism, because I felt like it lines so much more up with the teachings of Jesus than Judaism does. And so that's kind of how I made that transition.

20:02 Yeah. And without going into the same details necessarily, I deconstructed in a very similar way for very similar reasons. And it was really that kind of duplicity, the hypocrisy, and then looking and breaking down what that really looks like and what people value and how that plays out. And I just really struggled to reconcile Christianity, the teachings of Jesus, the way the church acted everything out.

20:29 So yes, the deconstruction was very similar. I landed with paganism basically because it takes us all the way back to our roots. And I felt like we came to a point as human beings where we began to divide and parse out religion. And it wasn't about just goodness and the things that we should be doing or the things that were right to interact with the earth and with man.

20:53 I feel like it became so much human agenda woven into religion, and we divided it up so much that I wonder if religion is not a vast sea, or if faith is not a vast sea. And religion is a contaminant. Religion is this effort to try to contain the sea, and it's not that. And so I have to go all the way back to the roots, which are just the simple interaction with nature and the universe and our relationship with one another and with our environment and with what's around us.

21:26 And so that's where I end up landing. But that whole parsing out of trying to put the sea in a bunch of different glasses, which is a semi-allusion to Glenn and Doyle's memoir that she wrote, but I just can't do that.

21:38 Yeah, I agree. And I don't see Buddhism as a religion, I see it as a philosophy.

21:43 Right. And I see paganism very much in the same way because you don't have to act in one particular way. To be pagan is simply not to be part of any of the major world religions.

21:53 Right. And and spiritually speaking, I think it is one of the only paths of spirituality that specifically seeks to empower women in a spiritual way.

22:03 Clearly, I'm drawn to that.

22:04 But the reason why we we bring this up is because Christopher Buellman is a self-identified agnostic. He calls himself a red letter believer. And he also has made statements of how he believes that the teachings of Jesus blend well with Buddhism. And so that really resonated with me. And the reason why I think that is and how it correlates with the book is because I think one of the main messages of this book is about action.

22:28 Right. That that faith is not passive. Right. That God shows up in you. And it's as they take this journey, the more they take steps in faith, the more Delphine specifically, her power grows.

22:43 And when they take faith in that relationship and they interact with people around them and they exercise goodness. All of those things kind of play out. And so that very much gels with that idea of Buddhism and doing the most good in those moments.

22:57 Buddhism is all about mindful living. It is not about passively doing good. It is about examining yourself in every aspect possible. Your thoughts, your intentions, your words, your action, what you do for a living, who you keep company with. All of those things are constantly examined because all of those things have an effect on your life and on the world around you, like a butterfly effect in a sense.

23:22 That's what karma is. Karma is essentially a spiritual butterfly effect.

23:25 Right. And so why are we so caught up on this? It's really because this feels like at different points, if you simply looked at it on the surface, that we're on this Christian journey of sorts and we end with this Christian ending in a lot of ways, which we will not talk about right this moment. But it can feel like that.

23:43 And so I want to be clear about kind of where Christopher Buellman is going with this kind of philosophical theological approach. And I think that's essential to the book.

23:53 Right. I see when I read this, I expected medieval horror.

23:56 Right.

23:57 And I got Pilgrim's Progress.

23:58 Right. And you don't know what that is. That's a Christian allegory, but you know, we digress.

24:03 So I I think that was very that that is very crucial to this book, is that they're they're waiting for God to show up and save them. They're waiting for divine intervention, and it does not come until the human element, which is Delphine, Thomas, and Matthew, step out in faith and take this journey.

24:21 Right. So this is not a, you know, God swoops down. It's like the Ducex Machina, like God swoops down and he fixes everything. That's not how this works. And Christopher Buhmann makes that very clear. So when we talk this idea of taking action in the world, taking action for good, one of the things we have to discuss right away is how Tomas and Delphine really come together.

24:44 And it is in a lot of ways against Tomas' will and somewhat accidental at the same time. So she is a young girl in this plague-ravaged area, and her father, her family has died, clearly, and she's left there all alone. Somehow she has survived, and she comes across Tomas and this crew of bandits, mercenaries, scavengers, brigands, brigands, who are eating her donkey, and which is very interesting symbolically, but they're eating her donkey, and she's like, You're eating my friend, basically.

25:22 This is this is my only other living companion here. And as one would expect, some of these men are ill-intentioned. They see this young girl, and she is a girl, and she is a potential object of lust. And Tomas stands out right away because he is the one man that cannot stomach that type of action. One of the things I notice about Tomas is he has the streak of nobility, honor, maybe even the heroic.

25:50 But in this moment, he's very reactionary. And he does end up quote unquote saving her, but it's not really intentional action.

25:58 Right. And then after that, he it wants to be done with her.

26:02 Right. Absolutely. Like, go away. I have saved you, but now you can go about your business.

26:07 But the angel tells the girl that she has to go with Tomas, and he's like, Oh, great, she's crazy too. And she insists, and he sort of gets saddled with her.

26:15 Right.

26:16 And he is going his own way, and he intends to leave her with the first stable family that he finds in the next town. Yeah. And it doesn't quite go that way.

26:27 No, she is a permanent picture in his life from this point forward, but she's definitely holding on with both hands, both arms, both feet and legs. She's she's firmly entwined around him. She refuses to let him go.

26:39 And she definitely gets a little angelic help in doing that. Correct. So they go on this unintentional journey with one another, and they come across this small village where they seek shelter with one of the local priests, which is Matthew. Matthew. Matthew.

26:54 Matthew.

26:54 Matthew. Sounds like okay. It's very French. Yeah. Matthew. They come across Matthew.

26:59 Yes, we'll just go with that.

27:00 And this is this compromise priest. He's clearly an alcoholic. Yes. But he's definitely a man of faith. He definitely is still doing good in the midst of everyone else abandoning all these people, the flock. All of his superiors have either died or hidden themselves away. Anyone with any kind of power has sort of abandoned the whole village.

27:20 And he's the only one still sort of there to offer mass and last rites, and he's doing his very best. And he takes them in for the night, and then he tells them the story about this strange river monster that everybody's afraid of that is just eating people alive like whole, just like biting them in two.

27:35 And it's this outrageous story, but no one's been brave enough to actually go and slay this monster and free the townsfolk from the fear that this monster has brought upon them. And so Tomas agrees that in the morning he will head out and he will attempt to slay this monster.

27:50 Well, unwillingly initially, because he has no desire to do this. And then he finally decides, no, I actually have to take intentional action, which one wonders how much influence Delphine is already having on him at that point. But the fact that he feels motivated to step forth and do this is really intentionally significant in this particular moment in the book.

28:13 But before we get there entirely, I feel like I want to talk about Matthew for just a second. Matthew is a challenging character. Okay. If you're someone like me, and maybe someone like Peter, but I'm speaking for myself at the moment. I initially wanted to dislike Matthew. I'm like, he's a symbol of the church, he's a priest.

28:30 This guy's going to annoy me. You know, what is his real agenda that's going on? From a Christian perspective, however, and there's always that dual nature operating within my person. From a Christian perspective, you're like, is this guy really a Christian? I mean, look at him. He's an alcoholic, he's good for nothing in that way.

28:48 And clearly he just has no bravery in this moment either. He's looking to Tomas, and we discover some other things about him as well. And I'm like, so the Christian side of me is going, sinner. And the pagan side of me is going, oh, member of the church. And so Matthew, when he's first introduced, becomes an interesting character for the reader to reconcile themselves with.

29:10 And that becomes increasingly so throughout the book. But yes, the river monster is really Tomas' first intentional action for good.

29:18 And I think it becomes the symbol of him facing his inner demons. I think I compared this book to Pilgrim's Progress earlier, and I think that's that's very true because in Pilgrim's Progress, Pilgrim comes across these different moments where his faith is challenged. Like he has to fight these literal monsters.

29:37 Right. And each time it teaches him to rely upon a different aspect of his faith. And in a similar way, the same thing happens to Tomas as he goes on this journey with Delphine. In this case, I think it is his feeling as though he can no longer do any good in the world.

29:54 Right. It's really a facing these challenges to reconcile himself, to be able to see himself and be able to know what ability he has to do the right thing anymore because he's been doing the wrong thing for so long. And so this really isn't about him, you know, recognizing his Christianity.

30:14 No, it's the moment he becomes a knight again.

30:17 Right. The moment he becomes a knight, and a knight does good things, and a knight is supposed to help people. And Tomas has for a long time not operated in that way. But in this moment of handling the river monster, motivated by Delphine and Matthew, he goes in to actually do something for the people of that village, which is a very unique moment in his life and a turning point.

30:39 Right. And and and as he faces this monster, which is clearly a demonic being, right? It has several different unusual aspects of it. It is a giant snake with spines, and it has a hand for a tail, and it's able to speak, and it's able to mock him and try to discourage him as he fights it, which I thought was very significant.

31:00 The fact that this demon is trying to beat him down, to beat down his courage, to beat down his virtue, and to kill the confidence in himself.

31:08 Well, it's the inner doubt and the inner evil, the inner inner nature of being selfish and everything else that is coming out to throw itself in his face. You are corrupt. You are incapable of doing this. And that is everything the river monster is. So I feel like when he's fighting the river monster, he's really fighting himself.

31:27 Yeah, I think I think it's how the demons want him to see himself. Right. The ugliness in him.

31:34 And how he's probably seen himself as well.

31:36 Yeah, because he's done monstrous things as a brigand. He hasn't crossed certain lines, but he's certainly turned a blind eye to certain other horrible acts, even if he didn't participate in general. He's sort of given up on himself and in humanity and morality in general until he comes across Delphine, and then it's just too much.

31:54 That's his breaking point. She's a child. She's like 12, I think.

31:58 Right.

31:58 And then, so, like you said, kind of against his better judgment, against his will, he acts. But this is the point where I think he takes intention to actually be a good person again, once more. And that's when he becomes a knight.

32:10 Right. And it's not that he doesn't have doubts from this point forward, because this is a very human journey for Tomas, and he continues to doubt himself. He continues to want to kind of run the opposite direction of the things Delphine wants him to do. He wants to do it in his own way, which is sometimes very violent, you know, so he's not without those continuing flaws.

32:29 So this isn't a moment that radically changes his person, but it is his first intentional action for good, and it is his road to redemption.

32:37 And because of the fallout from this, a very, very obvious miracle has to occur in order for them to move on. And when it does occur, then he fully commits to the pilgrimage.

32:50 Right.

32:50 But then they come to the next challenge. Okay. So the demons are going, okay, fine, you're a knight. Let's we can work with that. And there's this weird part in the book. That's the weirdest part of the book for me.

32:59 But really? That's the weirdest? Yeah.

33:02 Well, I mean, I don't know. We all have our own things where I'm like, okay, what the hell is going on here? But they they they come across this castle in the middle of a field, right? Right. Delphine says, Don't go in there, but they're tired, they're hungry, they're starving to death, and then like, no, we can we're gonna stay.

33:16 And she refuses. She's gonna, I'll stay in this tree tonight if you insist upon going in there. But don't blame me. I warned you essentially.

33:22 Right.

33:23 And and they go in there, and it's sort of this seven deadly sins situation.

33:28 It is.

33:28 And and and it's just full-on debauchery. But not only that, it's this it's this poking at his desire to not just be a knight, but to be a knight with honor, to be a knight with respect, to be a knight that gets his glory back.

33:44 And so the demons set up this sort of jousting tournament, which they use to again try to beat him down, to point out all his flaws, all the things he cannot do, all his weaknesses, to make fun of his lowly birth because he's not born of nobility. He was made a knight under very specific circumstances, and they bring all of that back up.

34:08 And his pain for being made a cuckold by another nobleman who stole his wife and his lands and his title.

34:14 Right.

34:14 And all that all that is brought to bear upon him, and it's this really strange, horrific situation involving zombies and and all kinds of stuff.

34:26 Like it it really is like a fever dream. Like as he's going through it, I'm like, oh my God, this is like the worst type of nightmare anyone can possibly have, and he can't quite get out of it. It's like he's on loop, like the moment where he tries to get through the castle and then he comes out in the same exact room where he started from, and you're like, that's what I knew.

34:46 I'm like, this is a psychological journey, this is psychological torture, and and he is trapped inside his own misgivings, his own doubt, his own guilt, and his own inability to find his way forward. And fortunately, he does make it out of this.

35:01 And let's just make it clear, he he's also sharing this delusion with Matthew.

35:05 Yes, because Matthew is in a similar spot because he's equally equally compromised, equally questioning whether he's even a priest anymore.

35:14 Right. Because it they ply him all night long with alcohol until he is debauching himself with another man because we get the impression that he's a gay priest. And this is his great shame.

35:25 Right. Because he's been told that's his great shame.

35:28 Right.

35:28 Right. So did you get the impression, like, I'm sorry, this is just a moment of humor. And for those of us that are Gen X and have watched a lot of Monty Python, like I felt the whole scene in the Holy Grail where they come up to the French people that are hurling insults at them, except in this case, they're nice to them to draw them into the castle and then like throw all this random crap at them.

35:49 And that's what I felt like when I was going into this moment.

35:52 I actually, I actually it's thought of the same movie, but Castle Anthrax instead.

35:57 Okay, that makes sense. That absolutely makes sense. So it is just really weird, but it does represent a very, if we want to analyze it from a psychoanalytic perspective, which again, literature nerd, but if we really want to criticize it in that way, this is very much a psychological moment. Whether it's Freudian or Jungian or whatever it is, it is it is a psychological journey in this weird fever dream that he has.

36:22 So he comes out of the fever dream, and then we have to move forward from there. And do you think he comes out with a renewed sense of confidence because he overcomes it? Or is he shaken by that moment?

36:34 I think he's shaken by that moment. I think he comes out with a new sense of confidence in Delphine. And okay, the next time she tells me I shouldn't do something, I'm not gonna do it. But no, I I I think it gets to him. I think it gets to him because he's still got this desire for revenge, he's still got a lot of pain that he's carrying and anger, and it opens up a lot of wounds in him.

36:57 Right. And I think I think that has to happen, right? Because that was all stuff he'd suppressed, and now it has to come to the surface because until it comes to the surface, he can't really start to deal with it. And so, on some level, Delphine told him not to go in, knowing he was gonna go in. But I think going into that moment was absolutely necessary for the steps that he takes after this.

37:18 I agree. So the next interesting thing that happens in the book is takes place in another city that they come to, and it's interesting. The city is being tormented at night by something that is killing anyone that's in the street.

37:32 Right, and this is Paris, by the way. It is Paris.

37:35 Yes. And it turns out that the statues of the saints in front of the church come alive and walk down the street just slaughtering anyone who's outside. And and so the statues, he opens the door to these statues because he gets tricked thinking there's a baby, there's a baby out there, and Mary comes in and she swinging a dead baby's body from her arm.

37:58 The statue of Mary comes in, very again fever dreamish, but go ahead.

38:02 And slaughters everyone, and he has to fight these impossibly to kill monsters, monsters. And I felt like what it was was it was a mockery of the saints, right? It was a mockery of human icons of goodness, right, but also religious icons of goodness.

38:20 This is the ultimate challenge to the church and and really exemplifying for me the corruption of those icons. Right. And so that church corruptions, it's very creepy because Tomas ends up going by that church the next day and seeing all those statues repositioned and the horrible things associated with them.

38:45 And they're all like holding dead children.

38:46 Yeah, they're all holding dead children, and it really shows that horrific corruption of what is considered quote unquote holy ground, and really get the feeling that the only holy ground that exists in that picture is what Tomas is carrying in the cart with him, which is Delphine. And everything there is just corrupted and nasty, and it's just this really disturbing moment.

39:11 So for me, that really challenges the religious institution and what we claim to be holy, quote unquote, things that call themselves holy, and it shows the damage that can do because of all those dead children, because of the dead people in the house, because in that moment when he opens the door, the Virgin Mary kills this potential mother and father that Delphine has actually found.

39:36 And of course, that's very plot-driven as well, because she has to keep moving forward, but it is also very symbolic. So I want to go back to that Trinitarian thing I started to say during the first part of the podcast and really identify how I apply that Trinitarian idea in this moment. And for me, Tomas is God the Father.

39:57 And we already heard in that opening passage that God made no answer and God made no answer. And like God the Father, Tomas has had a major period of inaction. He hasn't been making a lot of answers toward anything, right? So I feel like he is God the Father.

40:14 And when he does act, his his action is violence. Yes, it's killing.

40:19 Yes, it's killing. It's not, it's not some act of goodness. It is it is violence. So then I feel like in that way, Matthew really represents the Holy Spirit, and he is that first moment where Tomas is called into deeper action, you know, the the small voice of the Holy Spirit calling you, right? In this case, I think Matthew really represents that Holy Spirit in a lot of ways.

40:44 He is the conscience in the background. Now he may be a flawed conscience, which he really is, but he continues to be that conscience all the way up to the point where he doesn't.

40:54 Well, biblically speaking, people of faith are vessels for the Holy Spirit.

40:57 Right.

40:58 Right? So he is a person of faith, and therefore he is a vessel for the Holy Spirit in that sense. So his flaws included the Holy Spirit, quote unquote, is at work in him in whatever way it can. Right. So in that sense, I do think, yeah, he definitely represents the presence of the Holy Spirit.

41:15 Right. And so then that that leaves Delphine. And so obviously the Trinity, the Father, you know, the Holy Spirit, the Son, right? Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So Delphine is really the embodiment of the Christ figure in this situation. And there are some really interesting moments where those illusions are very real to me.

41:35 And one of the moments is on the road to Avignon, after they've escaped Paris, and both Matthew and Tomas become drunk and go to sleep, and they cannot be waked. They're just completely out of it. And Delphine recognizes that something bad is happening, that something is wrong. And her angel tells her, No, don't go.

41:58 It's dangerous. But she is driven to go anyway because she needs to try to go help. And so she leaves a sleeping Tomas and Matthew passed out while she heads in to try to do some good. And it was very Garden of Gethsemane to me, you know, that she was going to head in and maybe, although not in this moment, but maybe willingly sacrifice herself in order to do whatever good this is to stop the bad that is happening.

42:27 And Tomas and Matthew are oblivious to that action until the very last minute. But do you want to share just a little bit about what's going on there?

42:35 Yeah, and that was really reminiscent to me of different points within the Gospels where the disciples or somebody advises Jesus not to do this thing, and yet he must, and he does. And the angel specifically says, Don't go, you'll make it worse. And there were moments like that in the gospel where Jesus acts and a mob reacts.

42:54 Right.

42:54 And they come after him to kill him. So something similar happens here. Delphine goes off to this town and she witnesses basically the forming of this cult. This group of spirituals are coming through, banging their tambourines, dancing, doing flips, and they're singing praises and stuff like that. And there's this man at the head of it, and he's claiming that he's can cure the plague and he can bring people back to life.

43:14 And he starts performing these miracles where he literally brings dead people alive. Right. And Delphine sees-I mean, for real, for real. Yeah. Delphine sees this and says, This says, Stop, this is an abomination. And she goes up to the people that he's just brought back to life and touches them, and then they fall dead again.

43:30 Right, and they're at peace.

43:31 And they're at peace, right? Because what these demons are doing are basically trapping their tortured souls within their body. And so it's not a good thing. And it's also, like I said, a cult. So it's a it's is this guy's kind of uh bringing this sort of worship onto himself instead of God, and there's all sorts of things going on there.

43:46 But anyway, after she does this, of course, they accuse her of being a witch, and something very biblical happens is when they come to try to kill her, all of a sudden everyone is struck blind.

43:54 Right.

43:55 And she's able to escape the mob. But unfortunately, this does bring the attention of the demonic forces directly upon her because she kind of got under the radar before this point.

44:06 As would be true of Christ in the Bible, in that he operated under the radar for a long time. And it's that Sermon on the Mount and some of the other miracles he performs that suddenly thrust him into the eyes of everyone else. So Delphine is now thrust into the eyes of the demons. The demons are very aware of her and who she is or what's possessing her, and they are zeroed in on her at that moment.

44:31 I couldn't help but this was very reminiscent of the flagellants during the plague, the religious figures that ran around beating themselves on the back and trying to perform these holy acts in order to get rid of the plague, and they actually just made it worse. They were just spreading death. And for me, this man that Is up there going, I can bring the dead to life, is spreading more death.

44:54 He's just reanimating these corpses and trapping, trapping these souls, and the death is just being spread as a result. So it's very cultish. It has the biblical illusions, and then I feel like historically it really matches up with some of that stuff that was going on, motivated by quote unquote the church.

45:12 And it's right on theme with one of the major points of the book that we've already discussed, and that is faith being a matter of action. Right. Good and evil being matters of action. They are not passive. Actions have consequences. And sometimes even good actions have negative consequences. Correct.

45:31 But also, there's another element of action that Thomas takes just before this. Right after Thomas Tomas saves Delphine from being essentially raped by killing the men who are going to rape her, she says, don't kill ever again from this point forward.

45:45 And he's like, What the hell you say?

45:48 Yeah. Don't do the thing that I'm best at doing. Great. Great. But it goes right along with that right occupation, right living, you know, that whole, you know, our actions, what we put into the world matters. And if you put death into the world, you will get death back. And she tells him to stop doing that.

46:04 Stop being a vehicle of death yourself.

46:06 Don't cut off the ear of the centurion.

46:09 He that lives by the sword will die by the sword, right? And he breaks this promise to her just before this moment. And so we're waiting for the consequence. And unfortunately, the consequence of all this, him breaking that promise, getting drunk, Delphine having to face this evil alone with no protection, it all comes back around to being the death of Matthew and the exposure of them to the demons.

46:32 Correct. And it is really that moment where Tomas has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, blasphemed the conscience, gone against what he was supposed to do. And then they're exposed to this greater evil.

46:46 See, and I'm glad you said that because what when you hear blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, what did you always interpret it as in the Bible?

46:53 I always interpret it as you know what's right and you know what's wrong, and you choose to do the wrong anyway.

46:58 Right. Yes, okay. Yeah, and I would I would concur with that because I I was always told growing up that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was refusing to accept Christ into your heart.

47:07 Oh no, that's it that is a free will moment.

47:09 Right, right. And I I I balk at that idea because the first time Jesus has mentions it in the Bible, he's talking to the Pharisees.

47:17 Right.

47:18 And why why is he saying that to the Pharisees? What is the Pharisees' biggest sin? Spiritual pride, but in action, right? Right. Being good in their own mind, right? But not actually doing good. And then every time Jesus mentions an action that will condemn you, it's forgive others or you will not be forgiven.

47:37 You will be judged by the measure you judge others, and the the good Samaritan, the sheep, and the goats, it's all about taking action in the name of his spirit.

47:48 Right. But if you know you're supposed to take action and then you don't, or you take the wrong action deliberately, that is where the blasphemy comes into play.

47:57 Especially when you attribute it to you you attribute that kind of behavior to Christ. To the good. When you are acting antichrist, but calling yourself Christ, that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And so I think that's exactly the message of what's happening in this book is that everybody is waiting for God to intervene, God to act, but we are the vessels of the divine.

48:19 The divine comes into the world through us and through our actions, as does evil.

48:25 Right. So that's very Eastern Orthodox of you. The idea that we have the spark of God in all of us is a very Eastern Orthodox idea. And I think that if I still gel with any part of Christianity, it's probably that more Eastern philosophy than the Western. So Matthew's death really throws Delphine and Tomas into crisis because Tomas has a kind of meltdown, a kind of paralysis over the idea that Matthew has died.

48:52 And not just died, but he is killed by a giant demon.

48:56 Right, killed by a giant demon. And Tomas has come face to face with the spiritual battle that is going on underneath what he had just seen on the surface. And now he knows that as they're on the journey from Paris to Avignon, that when they get to Avignon, only death can await there. For Delphine, for him, he knows that death is there and he cannot abide it any longer.

49:21 And he definitely lacks the courage to do it without the Holy Spirit, without the buffer that he had, without the conscience, without Matthew, as much trouble as he'd given him along the way. Matthew is kind of this lifeline on some level. And Tomas can't do it. So he locks down and he's like, I'm not going any further.

49:39 And so this leads to a moment where Tomas and Delphine are separated because Delphine knows I have to go to Avignon. That is my purpose. That is where I have to defeat the ultimate evil. That is where I have to actually do what I'm being called to do. So I have to leave you behind. And if I go with my Trinitarian thing for a second, it is Christ going to earth when the father stays in the background.

50:05 So in going off on her own, Delphine faces her own type of evil and her own type of temptation. And I find it really significant that she faces that within the church. As when you think Christ would have when he went to earth, Delphine has to face this evil that exists within a church building. And that's where she has her ultimate temptation and kind of her ultimate trial before she ends up in Amiens.

50:31 Meanwhile, Tomas is on his own without Delphine as his conscience, and he has his own trials to face.

50:37 Yes, this is the famous dark night of the soul moment in the spiritual journey, especially for Tomas, who after she leaves him, he kind of initially wanders around aimlessly. He's now a knight without a cause again. And he kind of is generally traveling in the direction he believes Delphine went.

50:57 Right.

50:58 But without much urgency because he still doesn't know where his heart is. He just knows that she shouldn't be alone.

51:03 And he and he feels guilty about that.

51:05 And he feels guilty about that. He comes across a town that has just been slaughtered. All the men have been slaughtered by these British soldiers that have come through and pillaged them. Right. And at first they think Tomas is one of these soldiers and they want to kill him. But once he identifies himself as French, uh, then they ask him to avenge the men in the city.

51:24 Right. And he initially he vows that he will. And so later on, he goes to the next village and he finds that these men are all inside this bathhouse. And he knows that they are vulnerable.

51:35 They're naked.

51:35 They're naked. He can walk right in there and slaughter them like pigs. And he goes in there and he does stand above them the pool with his sword drawn, and they know they're all going to die. And then he goes through this crisis in his mind where he remembers that Delphine made him promise not to kill and the consequences of what happened the last time he broke that promise.

51:56 But also, in a way, the hypocrisy of it all. Because at one point he was a knight who turned to brigandhood and had done all the things that he was now about to condemn these men for doing.

52:07 Right. So is this the new covenant moment?

52:09 Yes, I think so. Yeah. And I think it's it's really important decision. It's this is the crossroads, really. Right. This is the moment that is going to decide his fate. And he stands there and they know that he can kill them, and he has the power to do it. And then he sheathes his sword and he walks away.

52:26 He opts for mercy.

52:27 And again, this is another point that the book makes over and over again is that actions have consequences. Actions have results, good consequences and bad consequences.

52:38 And this is a good action in that he's following Delphine's instruction, do not kill anyone else.

52:44 Yes, because when he put death out there, death stayed out there. And death came back on him. And it caused more death. And in this case, he put mercy out there, and that stays out there, and mercy comes back upon him later on.

52:57 Which is a very important point as we go forward.

52:59 And it's after this moment where he has nearly been killed, and he himself has been shown mercy because of the mercy that he showed others, that Delphine suddenly miraculously finds him again and says, Are you ready to go to Avignon?

53:11 And then he is ready to go to Avignon in that moment. Yes. Right after he has seen the providential nature of mercy, of goodness, of right action.

53:22 And overcome one of his last temptations, which is the temptation for revenge.

53:25 Right, which we won't totally go into. So we're kind of at this point in the book where we're at the end and we have this desire not to completely spoil the end andor, you know, flesh the end out entirely. But it goes without saying that ultimately Delphine has to make the ultimate sacrifice. If she is the Christ figure, she ultimately has to sacrifice herself to rid the world of evil.

53:51 And Tomas is there with her, and he acts almost as a mirror to that in those final moments in Avignon.

53:59 And the final message of this book is about redemption.

54:02 It really is.

54:03 And and why are we redeemed in the end? And what what what leads to redemption? And I think it goes right along with what we've been saying is that if your life is a vessel for the divine, the divine is the only thing that cannot be held in hell.

54:16 Right.

54:17 Right? The divine is the only thing that can go to hell and back. And come back from and come back again. And because Tomas has made certain decisions and started down that journey, that's very important for him as far as his redemption art goes.

54:30 Correct. So it is about redemption, but in this case, it's redemption in spite of the things that have been labeled holy. Because when we go to Avignon, historically, in this time period, the seat of the Catholic Church is not Rome, it is Avignon. The current Pope has brought it to Avignon. So this is the seat of the church.

54:53 And there is nothing but corruption in this seat of the church. And that's what Delphine has to go to conquer. And Tomas has to help her conquer. And so we really get the redemption in spite of the church, in spite of the quote-unquote holiness. And in that way, I don't feel like this is Christian apologetics that takes place at the end when Delphine defeats hell and Tomas defeats hell on some level.

55:23 I feel like this is really human action coupled with the divine, the spiritual, reconciling and bringing good back into the world. And the holy, quote unquote, is really proven to be ugly. And we have redemption in the form of this 12, 13-year-old girl who then is coupled with this disgraced knight who then suddenly brings redemption to the world.

55:53 Right. This book takes on the assumption uh that holiness can be inherent in something.

55:58 Right.

55:59 Without action.

56:00 Right.

56:00 And it can't.

56:02 No.

56:02 And and even in the end, there's a redemption in a way for the church itself.

56:07 There is.

56:08 But it comes through right action, right words. It comes through a change of heart and not just an inherent holiness because it's the church.

56:17 Right. And there's an issue with the Pope and kind of the redemption, a redemption arc with the Pope. And I will leave that kind of unexplained to a certain extent. But the Pope is not redeemed from his flaws because the true Pope has terrible flaws, or not so terrible flaws, has terrible flaws by definition of the church.

56:39 He is sleeping with a woman, he has a mistress, he has other very human qualities and aspects to him, but he is also a tool of redemption in these closing moments. And it is the rejection of superficial holiness and the embrace of real flawed goodness.

57:05 Right. And the book is called Between Two Fires for two reasons. Because the Pope has been ordered by his doctor to sit constantly between these two brasiers in order to ward off the plague. But I think ward off evil. Ward off evil. But I think more than that, it's the it's the two kinds of fires that we can face in our life.

57:23 The fire that consumes, the fire of hell, the fire of punishment, or the fires of purification.

57:31 Right. And and they are both distinctly different while being the same. So so the fire, the burning up, but in this case, baptism, baptism by fire. Right. And rebirth. It is an incredibly profound book. I just have to emphasize that. And it has something for everyone, but I think it has a distinct message about our responsibility as human beings, our responsibility to each other, our responsibility to the world as a whole, and what that really looks like.

58:00 And the fact that it can be terribly flawed, but if we're doing the next right thing, then we're on the pilgrimage in the right direction. And I think that is really, really important in this book.

58:13 Yes. And and you know, I I'll leave it with this insight is that Jesus said, I am the way, I am the truth, and I am the life. And I don't think that was a passive statement. I don't think that was just a say you believe in me, and you're good. And you're good. He showed you the way, he told you the truth, and he lived the life that you're supposed to exemplify.

58:32 And that is the path to redemption.

58:35 That is correct.

58:36 So moving on, we've got to end this out and talk about what we're going to read next time. So, Peter, what are we headed to on our next episode?

58:45 Well, we're well past Indigenous Persons Day, unfortunately, right now, but we did read a series of short stories by Indigenous authors called Never Whistle at Night. And I think we're going to choose a few to discuss, and that'll be our next episode.

59:01 Yes, and I'm really excited about that. I've been trying to figure out which ones I can also use in my classroom. So this will be a really good discussion. So until next time, keep reading.

59:10 Keep thinking.

59:11 And we'll get back to you and talk to you soon. Bye.