The Dice Cabinet: Balance in the Spice

0:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to the Dice Cabinet, a safe space for your spiciest tabletop takes. [SPEAKER_02]: On your Secretary of Spice, Max Weinberg, my pronouns are he, him, and today we've got a very special panel ready to share their spiciest takes with you. [SPEAKER_02]: First up, our first returning panelist, they are the director of production and creative development at twice-rolled tales in the creator of Burning Down the Goat and tabletop gone mad.

0:51 [SPEAKER_02]: The Secretary of Collaboration, it's LiniShell. [SPEAKER_02]: glad to have you. [SPEAKER_02]: And then next he's the award winning game designer behind games like Ramcom, drama bomb, project echo, and the time we have. [SPEAKER_02]: He's also a co-founder and producer of many-sided media, the secretary of sadness.

1:11 [SPEAKER_02]: It's Elliot Davis. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm so sad. [SPEAKER_03]: Hello. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just kidding. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sad. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited to be here. [SPEAKER_02]: How's everyone doing today? [SPEAKER_04]: You know, here we are in the most positive sense. [SPEAKER_02]: Great.

1:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So how this all works. [SPEAKER_02]: One of us will present their take then in the ensuing free for all, all of the secretaries will go back and forth digging into the take to determine how spicy we think it is. [SPEAKER_02]: Then we'll all rate it on a scale of one to ten with one being peptopismal and ten being a naga fiber.

1:47 [SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the show, we'll tell you up the scores and crown the spiciest take. [SPEAKER_02]: Anyone have any questions? [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, before we were doing this, Elliot stated his take and we all really were chopping it the bit. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think if that's okay, Elliot, you want to go first?

2:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: All right. [SPEAKER_03]: My TTRPG hot take is that no game needs a what is a TTRPG section in it. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it is a waste of text. [SPEAKER_03]: I think is it a waste of time? [SPEAKER_03]: I don't care how funny you are about it. [SPEAKER_03]: I never want to see another [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

2:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Point of clarification in order. [SPEAKER_04]: Are you saying just get started into it or do you think that it is valuable to have a what is this TTR to PG section? [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I think what is this game is very important to your game. [SPEAKER_03]: And this is kind of where the where it gets spicier as you dig deeper on this is that I think that if your game needs it, the rest of it isn't doing enough work.

2:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's one of those of like, if you have to like explain the joke, the joke was not good. [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm thinking, I'm, I mean, I fully agree with you. [SPEAKER_02]: But also, I'm thinking of all of the new kind of existing IPs that are creating, uh, TTRPGs around them, like, for instance, like Cosmere from Brandon Sanderson's universe.

3:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Like someone who's read, [SPEAKER_02]: and loves those books, might pick up this rulebook and really have only do it because they love Mistborn. [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: They might need to know what a RPG is. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, they need to know, but see, I don't think they need to know.

3:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think they need the broader context. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think anybody picking up an individual game needs to be told the broader context of what it is. [SPEAKER_03]: When I open up a video game, it does not have a screen that comes up that goes. [SPEAKER_03]: The following experience is a video game.

3:42 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a different game, but you play it on your TV screen. [SPEAKER_03]: Like that would be insane. [SPEAKER_04]: like a video game you can interface only by which in ways that you play a video game, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Like you'd go to a video game store, like you have to interact with it a lot of the time by putting it into a video game player.

4:02 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like you have to sort of know what it is before you begin. [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas the TTRPG, like you can pick up a book and then find out it's a game simultaneously. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't care if you write that it's a game like I don't want to hide the fact that it's a game. [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

4:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's um, I think it's the idea of like like what you said before, Lini of saying if I open up the Cosmere RPG and it says and I read what is this and it says this is a game in which you embody characters from the Cosmere. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like cool. [SPEAKER_03]: sick. [SPEAKER_03]: I never want to read.

4:33 [SPEAKER_03]: This is an RPG that says you probably heard of a little game called Dungeons and Dragons. [SPEAKER_03]: This is like that. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, no, don't do that. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to read about your thing. [SPEAKER_03]: It's ultimately like, I want the text of your game to be about your game.

4:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I never want it to be broader context. [SPEAKER_03]: I want it to just be like, I want somebody who picks up the Cosmere RPG because [SPEAKER_03]: to then play it, have a great time and then go, oh my god, wait, there are more of these when they become a freak about it, you know? [SPEAKER_03]: Um, that's my ideal hope for someone picking up a game.

5:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so, I mean, that, like, that makes sense. [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think ever that, like, it does create a discoverability issue, right? [SPEAKER_04]: If you're like, I, what, like, where do I go to get the next thing of these? [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't live somewhere, there's a game shop, and like, Max was saying you only bought this as an association or like a different property.

5:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. [SPEAKER_03]: I guess, do I think that kind of section solves that problem now? [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think, I think that, like, I think that if you have found, if the Cosmere PG has dropped from the sky into your hands and you play it and you enjoy it, you read it and you enjoy it.

5:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that would the power of the internet and the power of. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, community, hopefully, hopefully if you're playing the Cosmere RPG, you have a community of friends that you're playing with. [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody is able to then find the fact that other games like this exist.

5:59 [SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully it's through a local game store. [SPEAKER_03]: I would much rather have you get anything that's in a what is it our RPG section from somebody who works at a local game store. [SPEAKER_03]: When you go, hey, what is this? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a Cosmere fan like that's way more special and impactful [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like the, oh, oh, Max, again, I keep stepping on you.

6:22 [SPEAKER_02]: We are in different locations. [SPEAKER_02]: It happened. [SPEAKER_02]: What? [SPEAKER_02]: You're not in. [SPEAKER_02]: You're not in a cabinet. [SPEAKER_04]: We're not in a cabinet. [SPEAKER_04]: We're not in, like, it's this is not a cabinet meeting with an official board table. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my God.

6:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I was just fading. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just, I'm just kidding. [SPEAKER_02]: So I, obviously, Elliot, I think you read a lot more. [SPEAKER_02]: real books that I do. [SPEAKER_02]: And the one that I can remember reading is the what is an RPG book was from the die RPG. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: That's the one that I think about, which is for those who don't know as die RPG is based on a comic book about being jumanjied into this TTRPG world.

7:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's great and you should check it out both the book and the game. [SPEAKER_02]: But I do remember sitting there being like, why would I ever need to read this? [SPEAKER_02]: I read it kind of almost like hate reading it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: To be like, is there anything I need to know in here that I already don't know as someone who is played?

7:19 [SPEAKER_02]: hundreds of hours of games. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sorry, Karen, you're great, but there was nothing in there that I needed. [SPEAKER_03]: I actually, it's fun that you brought up DIRPG because I'm gonna talk myself away from my own take here because I'm gonna say that DIRPG is an interesting case because it is so about the meta context of Dungeons and Dragons and like, and failed school fantasy role playing as a concept that like, Karen being cheeky about what is in our PG in that section?

7:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I might allow that through through the gate. [SPEAKER_03]: I have put up against this. [SPEAKER_04]: How do you feel about this is a GM, how do GM sections that like explain to you the overworking concept of our chimpanzees? [SPEAKER_03]: That's interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: It's another thing where I will always prefer the jamming section that is about, this is how you run this game, versus telling me about what running a game in general means.

8:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I really, that's, I guess, the whole core of the take years. [SPEAKER_03]: I want somebody to figure out, [SPEAKER_03]: Learn what GMing is because they become a good die GM and then they're like, oh, I can do this for other games. [SPEAKER_03]: Like yeah, I guess I just am not interested in like the broad context being in someone's game.

8:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I want it. [SPEAKER_03]: I want I want the most juicy specific flavor possible. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's just it's not it. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's not as interesting to stand up and say, here is the artistic intent of the thing I'm doing or here is the joke or here is how a joke works.

8:55 [SPEAKER_04]: When at this point, maybe it's just about being brave enough to trust that people know what things are now, that it's not like the first time they may have encountered this at all in any capacity and have no ability to figure any of us out, you know, like your game should be enough. [SPEAKER_02]: Elliot, do you find that this is a really rampant problem that you're seeing?

9:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You get all of the books that you're reading. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it is less common than it was four or five years ago. [SPEAKER_03]: Like I feel like when I first got into buying RPGs, it was in a lot of them. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think I see it less these days. [SPEAKER_03]: Or I have just curated down the kinds of games I played to where it's less common.

9:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I think the thing you're talking about, Lini of like, trust that people know things, this is like my broader take about art and actual play, which we both do and games and writing is that like we're always gonna be better off when we trust our audience a little bit more. [SPEAKER_03]: Like you're always gonna make something stronger when you don't fall back on that instinct that I think is like, [SPEAKER_03]: Commerce based instinct some time of like the audience is dumb and needs to be told what to like reminded of stuff or like I always joke when we were like in production on a show and we needed to establish that two characters were sibling and I said what we are not doing is having either of them call each other brother or sister in this conversation like absolutely not that is one of my least favorite things I ever see in movie TV is when somebody was like come on

10:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, wow. [SPEAKER_03]: They're siblings. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like there's so many better ways to do that. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so yeah, trust your audience. [SPEAKER_03]: That's that's that's the core here. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it feels like the function that like what am I trying to say, um, [SPEAKER_04]: that a lot of times it feels like what they're trying to do is establish themselves outside of like D&D as well.

10:53 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I think you're touching on this. [SPEAKER_04]: And it feels like the place for that is, I see it got seen in a couple of games. [SPEAKER_04]: I think maybe in your game as well, which is like a game that inspired this work, like a list of games that are similar. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's like if you want to place it within context, that's a great way of doing it.

11:10 [SPEAKER_04]: You're giving people roads to things, but you're doing it within the structure of your game. [SPEAKER_03]: Totally. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love in acknowledgments of the inspiration like where your inspirations on your sleeve and like Especially like I think I've put it in the back of the book for a couple games and it's always like Hey, so you're done with this game.

11:30 [SPEAKER_03]: You want more cool stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: Here's why this game exists [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that, why don't we get to ranking it? [SPEAKER_02]: There's only two of us. [SPEAKER_02]: So this is going to be some really easy math. [SPEAKER_02]: When you add a third, a fourth person, sometimes the math gets a little tricky, but this will be great.

11:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Lini, what would you like to rank Eliot's take of your book does not need a what is an RPG section? [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like [SPEAKER_04]: Looks solidly a five in that I definitely fully agree with this take, but I feel like there's going to be a lot of people who err on the side of explaining things to people, who might disagree.

12:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that's sort of averages out. [SPEAKER_02]: I also very much agree. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's, unfortunately, sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's that spicy. [SPEAKER_02]: I need to go back and have like a fork. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Just don't tell the audience that.

12:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, shit. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, shit. [SPEAKER_03]: The big thing, the illusion, it's falling around me. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give it a four, I think it's still because it is somebody thinks it's really important, but yeah, you're playing a game, it should say game on the front, which should kind of give you an idea that it's a game and then the rest will tell you what you need to do, your work should stand on its own.

12:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Cool, well, that's an easy, that's an easy average right there, that's just [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, it's middle of the road. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's like a pickled jalapeno, maybe. [SPEAKER_02]: A pickled jalapeno is a perfect scripture for what this take is. [SPEAKER_02]: Lini, you wanna go next?

13:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, okay, mine is a kind of a strictly actual play take, but my take is when you're looking at actual play video or audio, the more that you remove cross talk or talking about mechanics or anything that's like above the table, the more you focus in our performance, the more you risk making a bad movie or a bad audio drama and you should just go make an audio drama or a movie.

13:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this is tough because I largely agree with this day. [SPEAKER_03]: And like, that's even coming for someone who like, we make a pretty highly edited actual play, but it's not highly edited to remove all that stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: It's highly edited to like make that stuff hit.

13:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Like some of my favorite moments from making AP is like when the big moment is everyone freaking out about the mechanic. [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like for the big shows like Dimension 20, that's so true, too. [SPEAKER_03]: with this. [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. [SPEAKER_02]: I think almost wholeheartedly with you, but I think that this is a spicy take in the grand scheme of things.

14:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there are absolutely people who would disagree with you and how I think about it is I almost look at it like a first draft of a script. [SPEAKER_02]: Like what you can do can be an amazing idea and an amazing structure, but you got to take those words. [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to do an audio drum, you got to cut some words from it.

14:31 [SPEAKER_02]: You got to [SPEAKER_02]: make it make it just a little tighter and a little bit more specific than some of the stuff that's happening. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Like there might be like two or three people in the world who can do the first pass and it be like the best thing that they can do and it'd be really great.

14:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Three of us and they're all on the scrolls. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no. [SPEAKER_04]: But I just don't think that for anyone else that there is a world in which a second draft is not going to be stronger than your first improvised draft. [SPEAKER_04]: And so it's like what is strong about actual play is like the other stuff around it being added to it in a set second layer.

15:17 [SPEAKER_04]: like developing right now where there's a lot more focus on performance and trying to bring out more like different ways of artistically representing actual play and like we're doing a lot of stuff that's on its feet like it's filmed much more like a short film like a movie and so we constantly are asking ourselves like are we making a bad movie here or have we been doing good actual play yeah yeah what is the line for you Lynney like like what like where [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a really great question.

15:47 [SPEAKER_04]: And one that I think we're still figuring out, but I feel like the layer is, when you're watching something happen, are you also gaining an understanding of why the person behind the characters making that choice? [SPEAKER_04]: And I think a lot of that, you can front load that if you don't necessarily want to have it constantly in or out with a moment, especially if you're doing something where people are gonna be in character, [SPEAKER_04]: a fair amount of time, but yeah, I think if it's like, do you just see the character for great lengths of time or do you get to see what's under the hood, you know?

16:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's um, it's interesting that Maxi bring up the line because my like the only part where I start to get like this is a hot take is I'm like, I watched this take get you sometimes to make bad art decisions is like what I feel like happens is that it's like, [SPEAKER_03]: the the answer to this take is not do not edit your thing you know what I mean it's like that's like it's like it's like like it's like there's a there's a there's a probably a bell curve really is what it ends up looking like where it's like too little editing is bad too much editing is bad there's a sweet spot depending on like the intention and goals of your project and how good your performers are if you know you've got like best in class performers you probably can handle

17:07 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, cutting more out. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but yeah, but that's where I start to get like where I get itchy about takes like this, even though I fully agree with the spirit of it is like don't then use that as an excuse to not think about what you're leaving in and taking out like that's that's like ultimately the thing is like think about it.

17:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Why is it there? [SPEAKER_03]: Why is it interesting? [SPEAKER_03]: Why does it further the goal of the project? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think it's very much a response to like the tendency once people start editing to keep editing and keep going. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's like too much of a good thing.

17:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a bell curve, exactly, as you say. [SPEAKER_02]: It's also the, I think of when we talk about leaving things in and taking things out, I actually had a big discussion with Kendall from... [SPEAKER_04]: I was just about to bring up Kendall as well. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: go check it out, it's from a couple of years ago, from with Kendo, from Tales Yet Told, where we talked about kind of the spectrum of actual plays and what that is.

18:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And so thinking about something like friends at the table, which leaves in everything and it's so much of like the specificity of why am I leaving this in. [SPEAKER_02]: You're not just leaving it until leave it and you're leaving it in because what does this add to, [SPEAKER_02]: the story, not the narrative necessarily, but the story of the whole project that you are creating and how what does that add or take away from it?

18:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was also talking to Ken Do about this specifically in the context of like solo RPGs and they definitely did change my mind on this a little bit because, you know, they basically pointed out that a lot of what happens in a solo RPG happens inside of a person's head and so like it's a very faithful capture of an experience to have [SPEAKER_04]: someone playing a solar PG never verbalized aloud what they're actually doing.

18:46 [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that's the one. [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it goes back to like, are you faithfully capturing what's happening? [SPEAKER_04]: not attempting to cut things out to make it look more like a different type of media, which it is not, you know? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, which is a great point that this is also like so dependent on game, you know what I mean?

19:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, is the game you're playing fun and interesting and compelling to hear those mechanics like really acknowledge at the table? [SPEAKER_03]: Like I feel like [SPEAKER_03]: To bring up a take, Max, you brought up off Mike about like success randomizers, it's like I think success randomizer systems are really satisfying to hear a lot of the mechanics on on tape like you like hearing the net 20 is just like a famously exciting delightful thing whereas like [SPEAKER_03]: like to pull from my own work.

19:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Like the time we have acknowledging the card you pulled is not necessarily like the thing that is going to be the most interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: Like seeing it or like reading it aloud, like that's where you're getting the mechanics of it. [SPEAKER_03]: But being like, and I've pulled the card, like it's not necessarily like the kind of mechanical talk that you're going to want from from an actual play.

19:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like both these takes have just been like, there's a balance. [SPEAKER_03]: There's a balance, it's new ones, damn it. [SPEAKER_03]: God damn it, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [SPEAKER_03]: I'm curious, because Lynnie, this is a thing that I think interrogate, not interrogated, discussed with you at one point where I was like, you're doing more sight stuff.

20:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you ever just find yourself wanting to make a short film? [SPEAKER_03]: And you were like, no, this is actual play. [SPEAKER_03]: So like, when it comes to these sight specific ones, I'm like, I do want to know where that line is for you. [SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I think definitely part of that conversation was like, Elliot, you can't be asking me if I want to do a different thing because I will start thinking about doing it.

20:57 [SPEAKER_04]: I can't be already doing too many goddamn things. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I think I just find the documentary aspect of it so fascinating that if I ever were to do something else, it'd be more along that line rather than the, because I never have a particular story I want to tell. [SPEAKER_04]: explore a theme and how people feel about something at the end of the day, and sort of the actual plays a great way of doing that.

21:27 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think for me what happens is, [SPEAKER_04]: people get really caught up in being a character when they're on their feet and acting like that. [SPEAKER_04]: And so they forget to do a lot of the things that we have sort of ingrained in our self-asper formers when you sit around a table.

21:45 [SPEAKER_04]: They forget to verbalize what they're doing or thinking, in a way that we've just not realized we have set as a standard for actual play, rather than being like instinctive. [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's this pressure [SPEAKER_04]: conceptualized actual play is a sitting thing that when you stand, well, that's just in character, because standing is like, is acting thing.

22:06 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I think it's very much like an open. [SPEAKER_04]: question of how to, like, is there a, are we looking to develop a sort of shared understanding of what it looks like to stand up and act and do an actual play? [SPEAKER_04]: Or is it something that's really just going to need to be very specific?

22:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm doing stuff right now where it's like breaking that up in different types of ways. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that actually answered your question. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's getting, yeah, it is. [SPEAKER_03]: There's an interesting thing you're making me realize where I'm like, that line between character and not, I feel like would be so much harder to navigate just on the individual performer level when you're in an onsite actual play.

22:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Because my impulse as a performer would be like, oh, I'm never leaving character. [SPEAKER_03]: But what, like, you're [SPEAKER_03]: getting at like what makes AP interesting is that the play the other players get excited about a move you make and so like where how do you signal that change?

23:00 [SPEAKER_03]: That's challenging. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, stay tuned in about like eight months. [SPEAKER_04]: Like like six to eight months. [SPEAKER_04]: What are actual ways start coming out because we've got a lot of answers to that question and I think it's be interesting to see what people think of them.

23:14 [SPEAKER_02]: To not put another idea in your head, Lini, I know this might be a little meta, but what if you did a documentary style actual play that was watching another game being played? [SPEAKER_04]: I have this whole actual play I want to do, which is from the perspective of the film crew that's doing an actual play.

23:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's very good. [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, what it has come down to is like, I think directors' commentaries can be interesting because you care what the director has to say. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think the idea of watching someone else watch actual play is only interesting in the same way that actual play is only interesting.

23:54 [SPEAKER_04]: In that, [SPEAKER_04]: whoever is doing the talking you have to care about what they're saying and what context they're bringing to what they say. [SPEAKER_04]: So in terms of like a documentary style stuff it would be like well what is the framing of why we're doing this and what it's being said.

24:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I think there is already some some people who are talking about doing and I can remember who at the moment there's definitely at least a couple of people already putting stuff out like this where it's much more um like reality [SPEAKER_04]: the actual players doing the actual play happening and then like they will intercut to thoughts about what's happening.

24:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And I tried to do that for a little bit for our thank god it's doomsday where it was kind of like a workplace mockumentary style thing where we had to figure out an audio only format how to do the talking head cameras. [SPEAKER_03]: That's cool. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, I think like stuff like that is [SPEAKER_04]: My suspicion is they actual play.

24:55 [SPEAKER_04]: the way you film actual play will start to look like the way we film movies in which you have to have the camera and your format fit the story you're trying to tell otherwise there's going to be an incongruity there and it's just the relative lack of like videos that exist in this format that means people don't pick up on that if it's happening um and so like that that thing will work if it makes sense for the game and for the story and for the intent but I don't think it will be an interesting necessarily a form that will [SPEAKER_02]: right.

25:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Elliot, shall we shall we rank this take? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to give this a solid six because for me, it is not that spicy, but I know how spicy it is from from the industry awareness and also that because of my upper limits on it as an absolute thought.

25:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I, I think for this one because I wholeheartedly agree with it. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do an industry one and I'm going to give it a seven. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give it a, I'm going to give it a day to actually, just kidding. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give it a day. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it is really spicy.

26:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I at least right now in the, in the, in the world that, in the actual place space that we are living in right now in my change, but right now I think it's an eight, because there is a lot of great stuff going on. [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel that some of this great stuff going on is a great audio drama as opposed to a great actual play of a game, and that's not a judgment on either of those mediums, it is just a different thing.

26:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Totally. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so. [SPEAKER_02]: That even's out to seven. [SPEAKER_04]: Alright. [SPEAKER_02]: So my take is that if you. [SPEAKER_02]: presenting me with a solo journaling game and your game does not have a randomized success mechanic, whether that's dice, jenga cards, a coin, something that's random, you are just giving me essay prompts and not a game.

26:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, okay. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to examine something within this take. [SPEAKER_03]: When you say randomize success mechanic is a randomizer that gives you a random prompt not that you mean it needs to be a success fail state. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the the action that you are taking.

27:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you could like I can decide to whatever the is given to me. [SPEAKER_02]: I can decide to take an action But I don't go and I win at the same time Fascinating Many solo journaling games are not games then [SPEAKER_03]: than they're just essay prompts. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't say it.

27:44 [SPEAKER_03]: I think this is a fun thing where I'm like, does it matter to me? [SPEAKER_03]: Because I don't think I agree. [SPEAKER_03]: I also have a dog in this fight. [SPEAKER_03]: I've written a solo game that does not have a success mechanic. [SPEAKER_03]: Project Echo is just several randomized prop generators that how they interplay to an ending is sort of the determining of where you're ending is.

28:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And so there's randomization in that way, [SPEAKER_03]: Zoomed-out randomization, so I guess, I'm not, I am less familiar with Project Echo than I should be. [SPEAKER_02]: You're fine. [SPEAKER_02]: Especially with you on this company. [SPEAKER_02]: What are those randomized props looking like?

28:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so in Project Echo there are six different devices. [SPEAKER_03]: they are powered by a bunch of different game pieces, including six-sided dice, playing cards, tarot cards. [SPEAKER_03]: As you play, you use those randomizers to get prompts. [SPEAKER_03]: And then as you play, a lot of the prompts are just, here is a prompt for your story.

28:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And then some of them are, here is a special kind of prompt that is either encountering one faction within the story or another. [SPEAKER_03]: And when you get to six in either of those directions, you go to the ending prompt of the game [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, whether you have your coin, you do flip your coin at the end and that determines what ending prompt you get.

29:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so there is randomization in that, but there is no, I would say there is no success failure. [SPEAKER_03]: Success and failure comes from the player in that game. [SPEAKER_03]: You could write yourself to be the baddest mother fucker and that the response to every prompt is that like, yeah, but I win.

29:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, so, um, [SPEAKER_03]: So it's interesting, because it's structured, it's structured storytelling. [SPEAKER_03]: But is it a game? [SPEAKER_04]: Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm [SPEAKER_04]: with more people, like you success in failure, is determined by something completely outside of your control.

29:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Even if there's not a lot of, like outside of your complete control, even if there aren't a lot of mechanics making it. [SPEAKER_04]: So, and I'm trying to figure out if I think that this also applies here, but I don't know if you can play games with your, like you can play games inside your head.

30:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: So the example I will give is, I've been playing a lot of Astro Prisma recently. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's great. [SPEAKER_02]: I got the book right here and and even in the book, the recommended way of playing is journaling mode, but within the game, you're rolling dice to determine if you succeed in the randomized situations that arise.

30:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: what you're doing. [SPEAKER_02]: This is not a value judgment on these because if I want to get a prompt for writing a narrative, to me, that's doing, I'm writing a narrative. [SPEAKER_02]: That's writing a story. [SPEAKER_02]: That's different than playing a game to write a story.

30:56 [SPEAKER_04]: But like, [SPEAKER_04]: So like, but, I don't know, I feel like when I'm writing and I'm looking for prompts, the difference between a prompt and a game is that the prompt doesn't have any internal artistic statement or internal point that it's trying to make. [SPEAKER_04]: It's point is to be like a blank canvas upon which I can write my ideas.

31:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's a jumping off point. [SPEAKER_04]: And the difference between like a solo game is like you could [SPEAKER_04]: everyone could take those series of prompts and in theory kind of sit down and examine their own experiences and sort of reconstitute some artistic intent from the author like that there would be a central connection between all of them that isn't true for just an essay prompt.

31:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're creating the conflict. [SPEAKER_04]: Right, but like what I'm saying is that it's not just like the game part of it is that it is [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas the essay prompt is just generating the work that you were doing, but the game is generating a conversation between you and the writer, even, like implicitly, and that is part of what makes it a game.

32:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Let me ask you this, if I present you a solo game, a solo journal game, and it is just a 1d6 game, right? [SPEAKER_03]: You the only thing you do is you roll 1d6 and you get 1 of 6 prompts, and that's what you're doing every time. [SPEAKER_03]: If three of those prompts are negative and three of them are positive, is this a randomized success mechanic?

32:30 [SPEAKER_03]: or am I just having you write an essay? [SPEAKER_03]: Like does the distribution and probability of what I put within that prompt set make a game for you? [SPEAKER_03]: Or do you think that that's not doing what you're talking about? [SPEAKER_02]: what you have described to me is is an essay prompt and not a game.

32:48 [SPEAKER_02]: What in this situation prompts the next role after that. [SPEAKER_04]: So you just set where you're going to do via the prompt and then the game helps you determine if your action is successful. [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting, interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not that kind of narrative person.

33:06 [SPEAKER_02]: If you can't already tell, I'd like to have a little bit of the control taken away for me. [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just here. [SPEAKER_03]: Control is an interesting thing here. [SPEAKER_03]: This is like, this, when I think about solo games from a game design perspective, is it's like, what I think the, where I think the game design is here for me, is like, I have created a set of prompts.

33:30 [SPEAKER_03]: across different randomizers and the game that I have created for you is that you will get a certain subset of those prompts and the way they interplay will lead you to a specific kind of story that is half me and half you and like and like yes you are coming to it with a lot but like if I've done my job well [SPEAKER_03]: the interplay of those prompts is game and like does feel like does create that narrative arc for you.

33:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Like where you're saying you're not really that much of a narrative guy. [SPEAKER_03]: I think a good solo journaling game helps like you come to a narrative even if that's not where your brain naturally goes. [SPEAKER_04]: I think Ellie and I, correct me if I remember Ellie, but I feel like we both feel that the game part is that there's guidance.

34:15 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's from the prompts or from the dice. [SPEAKER_04]: Like there is pressure being exerted by the format of the thing that is, [SPEAKER_04]: pushing or pulling or in some way, influencing the player in a specific way, where is a journal prompt asks you to do none of that. [SPEAKER_04]: There's no push or pull coming from a journal prompt.

34:38 [SPEAKER_04]: So even games that don't have success mechanics can still be games because there can be a push and a pull somewhere in there. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think so. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think it's like, like, this is where I get, and this is getting into the definition of game unfortunately, sorry, Max, but like it's like, the idea is like, if I create a list of 20 questions for you to answer, and [SPEAKER_03]: in answering them in that order.

35:04 [SPEAKER_03]: It creates a game like experiences at a game. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's like, have I done my job as a game designer? [SPEAKER_03]: This is like where I'm like, how much game do I have to put? [SPEAKER_03]: And this is something I think I've designed a fair number of solo systems.

35:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm always thinking about like, how much game do I put into this? [SPEAKER_03]: Like, how much does it need game? [SPEAKER_03]: And how much does it need prompting and reflection? [SPEAKER_03]: And like, where is that balance? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: I, [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not I'm not convinced I disagree with you and yet I feel emotionally like I disagree with you also because of having made a solo journaling game.

35:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you mean solo journaling prompt. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, watch it. [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder also if this is like person dependent, you know, like if if people depending on how much you like being guided by something is how much do you might interpret this as being prompted or not prompted, like how much of yourself do you like to bring to stuff?

36:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, isn't that what all of this is? [SPEAKER_02]: We're all just stating our opinions. [SPEAKER_03]: What? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I thought we were here to get to the truth. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really objective facts. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, I mean, yes, everyone will will differ on this, certainly.

36:24 [SPEAKER_02]: But I, when I play a game, I want, I want there to be a reason that I fail. [SPEAKER_02]: I want there to be a decision that contradicts what I want to do. [SPEAKER_02]: Even if I'm given the prompt, I want there to be something that says, not know you can't do that. [SPEAKER_02]: But, [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you shouldn't have done that.

36:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, for me, it is about the, the, the, the, it's not as much about the game and the random, it's the consequences of my actions. [SPEAKER_03]: You want conflict. [SPEAKER_03]: You want a game to give you constant, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't have to be like big or bad conflict, but there just has to be, something, because that's off conflict is what drives narrative.

37:04 [SPEAKER_04]: I am begging every person listening this to listen to Ursula, listen or read Ursula K. Legwins essay, the carrier bag theory of fiction. [SPEAKER_04]: Please. [SPEAKER_04]: who I'm looking at why I don't it is in direct opposition as she would God if she was still alive she would be the best vice cabinet minister ever created but it's in direct opposition to the idea that story needs conflict and her point was just it's easier to write story with conflict but story is a mechanism for meaning not conflict.

37:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so get good scraps, I'm gonna have to go home and I'm gonna go downstairs and think about that. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking about like, and I think about game mechanics here, like, I think that like random my success modifiers is one way to make a game. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that like, [SPEAKER_03]: uh, um, gauges are like, um, filling up a bar is another way to play a game.

38:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I think like journaling prompts can sometimes play in that like filling up a bar kind of idea, you know, like in a game where you're leveling up, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, and I think that, [SPEAKER_03]: what you do to fill that bar can sometimes make it a game.

38:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's hidden game mechanics, I think in journaling games that are maybe that take a bigger step back than success, that still make them game. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm thinking video games, you said you're a video game guy, like a linear single player game. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, that's a predetermined story, right?

38:39 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's still a game, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's still a game. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think maybe what you would argue to me here is that, like, can I die in that game? [SPEAKER_03]: And my fighting bed, guys, like, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: But like, I also think about like visual novels are those games, you know, like, they do have a kind of subset term of visual novels maybe for a reason.

38:56 [SPEAKER_03]: But like, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm torn on this one. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, with that shall we, uh, do y'all want to rank house by see you think my take is of solo journaling games that don't have a randomized success mechanic are as they prompt. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to say like a seven on this one because I think what it comes down to is I think there are things that are labeled as solo role playing games which are actually just essay prompts, but I think that the lack of a success mechanic doesn't disqualify it from being a game.

39:34 [SPEAKER_04]: I think there's just some of them maybe aren't quite gay yet. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to give you an eight for similar reasons. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: It starts leaning towards becoming more of a movie or audio drama, take. [SPEAKER_04]: Go a bad one. [SPEAKER_02]: Is that good?

40:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Specifically, the more of you, it's basically the more that you remove crosstalk and game mechanics from your actual play, the more you risk making a bad movie or a bad audio drama. [SPEAKER_02]: Great. [SPEAKER_02]: That got a seven. [SPEAKER_02]: And my solo journaling games that don't have randomized successful canics [SPEAKER_02]: got a 7.5.

40:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So as the Secretary of Spice, on this episode, I wrote this by see as take. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you both for joining me today. [SPEAKER_02]: Lini, Ellie, Woody, all got going on. [SPEAKER_02]: Working people fine, do. [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yeah, sure. [SPEAKER_04]: You can find me anywhere at twice rolled, uh, twice rolled tales or twice rolled press, uh, and you can also find me at Lennie Shell pretty much everywhere.

41:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, you should check out our new game Ponder World, which is finishing up, uh, the last, uh, late late backers on Kickstarter, uh, and just generally keep an eye out in the next couple of months for the twice rolled tales channel. [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, there's going to be some fun actual plays out there.

41:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I am Elliott. [SPEAKER_03]: I have been Elliott. [SPEAKER_03]: I will continue to be you can find me anywhere online at more blueberries on pretty much any social media that matters if I'm not more blueberries. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not there. [SPEAKER_03]: You can find my games at more blueberries dot shop games like the time we have project echo we talked about today.

41:43 [SPEAKER_03]: We've got two new games coming out all fair by Dylan Appellian and rise wizards by Robin Eckberg. [SPEAKER_03]: Those are on pre order should be available by the end of the summer. [SPEAKER_03]: And if you happen to be listening to this and you're at origins this week, I am at origins in Columbus, Ohio, so come say hello.

42:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Once again, thank you both for joining us. [SPEAKER_02]: This has been the dice cabinet. [SPEAKER_02]: Check out our Patreon next week for more continuation of this for more spicy takes from this crew. [SPEAKER_02]: And hey, with that, the cabinet is closed. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to another episode of Mage Hand High Five.

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44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I sound a new approach. [SPEAKER_01]: I apologize to those of you whose names I blipped over in the process of it, but I think I'm ready for more challenge. [SPEAKER_01]: So here we go. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell your friends about the show. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell your foes about the show. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell renowned character actor Kyle McGlockland about the show.

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