The Dice Cabinet: Sandbox of our Hearts

0:28 [SPEAKER_06]: Hello and welcome to the dice cabinet, a safe space for your spiciest tabletop takes. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm your secretary of spice, Max Weinberg. [SPEAKER_06]: My pronouns are he and my guests are some of the coolest people in the tabletop space. [SPEAKER_06]: First up is one of my collaborators on Mage Hand High Five.

0:43 [SPEAKER_06]: They play Hayden, King Kaden, or the GM of the Cravenverse. [SPEAKER_06]: It's the secretary of them, Bose. [SPEAKER_06]: Robin, Megan, Ha! [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everybody, I make muscles look feminine. [SPEAKER_06]: Our next guest is the creator and editor and just about everything else behind the award-winning actual play podcast, queer PG.

1:03 [SPEAKER_06]: The Secretary of Suffolk Media, it's Kenzie Tartaglioni. [SPEAKER_04]: I may not have ever seen the show, but I promise you I know if it's gay or not. [SPEAKER_06]: And to round it out, she's a cast member of the award-winning actual play last train to Brooklyn and just finished the national tour of the 20-sided tavern.

1:22 [SPEAKER_06]: It's the Secretary of taverns, Jasmine Malave! [SPEAKER_01]: Yay, hi everybody, and I do drink in real life, not just at the taverns. [SPEAKER_06]: I was everybody doing tonight. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm having a good lovely time. [SPEAKER_00]: How about you? [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that bad hopefully it doesn't change too much over the next, you know, 40 minutes or so.

1:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Someone's going to make you mad. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so excited. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let's get down to business. [SPEAKER_06]: So how this all works? [SPEAKER_06]: One of our guests will present their take. [SPEAKER_06]: Then in the ensuing free for all, all of the secretaries will go back and forth, digging into the take to determine how spicy we think it is.

2:02 [SPEAKER_06]: Then we'll rate it on a scale of one to 10 with one being chalk and 10 being a pepper X. [SPEAKER_06]: At the end of the show, we'll tell you up the scores and crown the spiciest take. [SPEAKER_01]: Nope. [SPEAKER_06]: No, let's dive right in. [SPEAKER_06]: Great. [SPEAKER_06]: Who wants to go first?

2:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll do it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm ready. [SPEAKER_01]: Woo. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So, and this is a sincerely held belief of mine, that Min-Maxing should be respected and a competitive eSport. [SPEAKER_00]: Woo, I'm so excited for this. [SPEAKER_01]: We should be able to watch people as they do the math to figure out how to most effectively min-max a character.

2:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really a lot of work. [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that if you created a system that I can min-max, that it is my responsibility to create the most effective character possible. [SPEAKER_00]: My immediate first thought is, I'm fully unbored with the exercise of min-maxing, but how does it become practical and acceptable at the table with other players in a campaign?

3:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, I think my personal belief is like, Min-Maxing the character itself is predominantly for you. [SPEAKER_01]: If it's a headache for your GM because you figured out a way to have your ACB in 19 right off the bat, like that's on the way the game is built, not on you. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just think you should be able to do that.

3:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're Min-Maxing your turn, you're just being more effective for the things that you need to. [SPEAKER_01]: I like to Min-Max my characters that they have specializations. [SPEAKER_01]: But like, I just think that it should be allowed and I do think you could still get a cool character and like follow through on interesting RP.

3:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you do it. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm kind of neutral on this because I feel like maybe the term in Mac sir has negative conversations to it. [SPEAKER_04]: When in reality, we're just talking about people who really like the mechanics of games. [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: So Robin, as you were saying, like, how does that work at a table?

4:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that person is most likely going to be trying to find a table with like-minded people who also are more focused maybe on the mechanics of the games and they are on the storytelling. [SPEAKER_04]: So what matters to them matters at the table. [SPEAKER_06]: But what matters to them is that what matters here.

4:22 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: It matters to me that people who want to min-max are allowed to do what they want to do at the table [SPEAKER_00]: I think that where this falls apart for me is number one, I don't think that a table full of all min-maxors is necessarily what's going to happen. [SPEAKER_00]: More often than not, there is a single min-maxor in a sea of people with generally balanced characters.

4:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's the [SPEAKER_00]: both the resentment level of, hey, this douche nozzle is in here, making it less fun for the rest of us. [SPEAKER_00]: And there's the stereotypical min-maxer position of, I'm gonna fight the DM on every choice so that I can show off. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think part of it is the personality behind the person doing the min-maxing.

5:23 [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like min-maxing is so often just related to combat or de-india, at least, and probably similar ones to combat or charisma checks. [SPEAKER_06]: I kind of wonder what min-maxing would look like when it comes to situations outside of those. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you see videos of people like, I can make myself jump 400 feet.

5:56 [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Doesn't, you, do you want to play with people like that? [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to be able to do, I love breaking games. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to know where I can push that like, if you gave me all of these things that I can use and I figured out a way to jump that hundreds and hundreds of feet, I win.

6:19 [SPEAKER_04]: You should come to my table and play with my paladin who fought maybe holder by running and jumping up and swinging his sword. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I just want one hit. [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, but that was his continual turn because the rules of 5v allow for math to make make jumps that you should be able to make possible.

6:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's a counterpoint. [SPEAKER_00]: What about a mid-maxing GM? [SPEAKER_00]: Because you bring to me somebody who can have an AC of 35 and I come at you with, hey, here's an intelligent saving throw and I've ruined your whole day because I did the one thing you're bad at. [SPEAKER_01]: sure.

7:06 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but then that's the thing, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you've made a choice. [SPEAKER_01]: You've chosen your path. [SPEAKER_01]: There's things that you're going to be really bad at because you've been maxed. [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just two chess grandmasters going up against each other, trying to exploit each other's weaknesses.

7:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I love that. [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_01]: I like crunchy D&D. [SPEAKER_01]: I like role play, but I also like crunchy [SPEAKER_06]: I, because of the badlands, I've played far more on recording than off, and I'm trying to remove my like recording actual play player brain from this, because there was a moment in one of our shows where I did a thing where I was like, Casey, you are not going to be able to touch my character basically until I say it's okay.

7:53 [SPEAKER_06]: And it was just, it was such a long time, but I was just like, that's not fun, but then I was like, oh, if he was this was a home game. [SPEAKER_06]: I would have made this go as long as possible. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, if you want to bring actual play into it, one of my most memorable watching actual play, one of the most memorable moments to me, is Emily Axeford and Crown of Candy, when she absolutely obliterates the entire battlefield because she knows her stats and she's good at what she does.

8:22 [SPEAKER_04]: And that was exciting to see. [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know if it matters, [SPEAKER_04]: uh... actual play production and playing at your home in min-maxing it's just when you're making a show the people who are making it like no one to do that and when not to do that yeah i like min-maxing i also [SPEAKER_01]: something that people should understand about me as I min-max every single character that I build, solely because I roll notoriously low.

8:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I will always roll low, and you need to understand that this is the only way for me to combat it unless I'm playing Kuthu, where it's fine to roll low. [SPEAKER_04]: I think where this take falls apart for me is when we get to the e-sports part because this feels like more like math leads to me.

9:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so it could be math leads. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's like it should be a competitive sport of some sort. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that valid. [SPEAKER_01]: You should be able to show off your ability to find these loopholes. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so interesting and also good for you.

9:26 [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, this isn't the take but how would we do that would that be like speed like you know how like if you ever Like speed puzzles or see them like you don't know what puzzle you're gonna do ahead of time [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like that's what it'd be like, you know when people in magic like do the car, they have to put the cards and the sleeves or whatever that is, it's like a speed thing.

9:44 [SPEAKER_04]: You have to be timed if you can figure this out before everybody else. [SPEAKER_01]: And also like, so you get like these different balls, the little rotating bingo ball containers. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, everyone today is going to be making a level eight. [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm barbarian go and just like you have to make the most aggressive and sane Level eight bar, you know, or something like that 40 years nursing homes are gonna have a new game Do playing with their residents because we're all TTR PG nerds and we're all old I will be so bad at this game, but I would have so much fun doing it [SPEAKER_06]: This is the so-off topic, but one time I was playing with my mom and my mom's best friend, and it was the first session I was running the game, and they had never played before, and my mom's best friend is like fighting a bandit, and she just goes, I want a punch-up in the dick, and I was so mad off guard.

10:37 [SPEAKER_06]: by that statement from this 75 year old woman, that slay, I had to just pause. [SPEAKER_06]: Did she succeed? [SPEAKER_06]: Did she do it? [SPEAKER_06]: I think so. [SPEAKER_06]: But then you had the thing of D&D where it doesn't actually do anything extra. [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, you can say that the dick has a different AC to the rest of the body.

10:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can call your shot, man. [SPEAKER_02]: That's how that works. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think on that statement, [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's time to, uh, unless anyone has anything else, should we want to go and rate the take that Min Maxing is good and should be a competitive sport.

11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I, I feel like this is pretty spicy. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna put it at a, I'm gonna say a seven because you're basically saying that everyone's least favorite person at the table is great, actually. [SPEAKER_00]: And having seen the way you play characters, I, you're bringing me around on it.

11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I swear every character I've ever played has been personally min-maxed to the best of my ability. [SPEAKER_00]: Clementine was amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: And she was pretty stacked if I saw your character. [SPEAKER_01]: You would not believe like her stats. [SPEAKER_06]: Can't see what do you think?

12:00 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm thinking I got to do kind of a cop-out move here and go right down the middle with a five because it seems just like, ooh. [SPEAKER_04]: It just seems like it doesn't really matter as long as everyone's having a good time. [SPEAKER_04]: And I haven't personally had an experience with a min-maxer that has been negative.

12:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Is it feels like maybe all of you have or at least Robin has. [SPEAKER_05]: A little bit. [SPEAKER_06]: I also think this is pretty spicy. [SPEAKER_06]: I think I'm going to go with Robin on this one at a seven, because I think the idea that Min Maxing is good is a really hot take, but I also love the idea of like speed running a situation saying, figuring out how to beat it as quickly as possible.

12:44 [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's a super fun idea. [SPEAKER_06]: Doing some math real quick. [SPEAKER_06]: doing some math, we're doing some math. [SPEAKER_06]: So the average score for Jasmine's min-maxing is good and should be any sport is 6.333 repeating, which is pretty good. [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty good, pretty good.

13:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: You're respectable. [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, you've brought it down. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think that's also a fair take. [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't sure it would be particularly spicy, but I'm happy that it was medium spicy. [SPEAKER_06]: It's a salsa that I can not eat.

13:24 [SPEAKER_06]: Ha ha. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, who would like to go next? [SPEAKER_04]: I can go the play style of storytelling and living in a sandbox world is bad and actually not ever possible. [SPEAKER_06]: Not possible, okay. [SPEAKER_04]: Wow. [SPEAKER_06]: Could you expand on that a little bit? [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.

13:46 [SPEAKER_04]: This honestly does kind of tie in with my other takes, so I'm gonna try not to fully comment on it. [SPEAKER_04]: But... Little teaser for the... Sure, sure, and a mousse bouche. [SPEAKER_04]: How do I put this kindly? [SPEAKER_00]: There's no kindness on the spice cabinet. [SPEAKER_04]: You will never tell a story or finish a campaign or finish a session if you just let your characters or your players, I should say, run around Willy Nilly and not do anything.

14:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Because players at a table unless you give them some sort of guidance will never make a choice. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with this, 200%, I almost want to say, like, for the average player, I don't think you're wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I've stumped the spice taste. [SPEAKER_01]: No, and like, I wanted to argue with that, because it's like, oh, no, but what if I just want to go do these different things?

14:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So we can follow our hearts. [SPEAKER_01]: But then I'm like thinking about my actual home game, where we started doing the Mad Mage Dungeon, and found it so grueling to do that dungeon crawl, that we immediately came back above ground immediately, like it took weeks. [SPEAKER_01]: of play, but we actually only did like two days in the dungeon, but we came back almost immediately to water deep, and then proceeded to spend the next year fucking around and opening up a bar.

15:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So we now are the proud owners of an operational bar and water deep, including finding distributors and things like that for resources for different things that we're selling at our bar, and that's because our DM let us see unbox. [SPEAKER_04]: I have a thing though, once you decided not to do that dungeon and you're crew decided on opening up this bar, did the DM just step away and say, alright, you guys can do this all on your own or did they come in and they help you build the bar within the D&D world because they've that now then introduced some rails.

16:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he did show up and let us R.P. [SPEAKER_01]: interviewing bartender. [SPEAKER_01]: So he came prepared with interfume material. [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. [SPEAKER_00]: The rails have been entered into the conversation. [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting because I was about to come in to count to your take with [SPEAKER_00]: you just need consequences for the player's actions.

16:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they can fuck around as much as they like as long as they find out after the fucking round part. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're saying that that still counts as rails, then really your take is more like TTRPGs require GMs, which feels less spicy to me. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, I don't think that's what I mean.

16:48 [SPEAKER_04]: because there are a lot of great GM lists, TTRPGs. [SPEAKER_04]: But, and also I don't think coming in and when your players are fucking around and coming in and introducing consequences is putting rails on it all, it's punishment. [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't mean that in a back away, I just mean that like, [SPEAKER_04]: If your players continue, I mean, honestly, at that point disband the table, if no one's having fun, but like if you can only, they can only find out so much until no one is having fun anymore.

17:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And so like at some point during that time, the GM either has to figure out how to put rails on the tracks and get them focused or it disbands and falls apart. [SPEAKER_04]: The group does. [SPEAKER_00]: interesting. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I just I fully agree with you because even to a lesser extent, I think of the video games that I that I love playing and everyone in their mother loves Skyrim and Breath of the Wild and I understand that these are good games.

17:49 [SPEAKER_06]: But I couldn't care less about playing them. [SPEAKER_06]: I've tried so many times. [SPEAKER_06]: I've woken up shirtless links so many times, but there is nothing to do. [SPEAKER_06]: Getting off the platform is not exciting. [SPEAKER_06]: I do not, or the plateau, that's not fun. [SPEAKER_06]: I've woken up next to that guy in Skyrim probably 15 times over the last 20 years or however long that game's been out.

18:14 [SPEAKER_06]: Could not care less because there is no hook. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel the same about MMO RPGs. [SPEAKER_00]: The number of times somebody tried to get me into World of Warcraft or RuneScape or something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: I had a DM wants who just ran Skate, ran RuneScape as though it were a D&D game.

18:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't incredible story, it was just you walked into the next town over and there are fish people attacking. [SPEAKER_00]: And that was it. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, there was no overarching story of any kind, and it fell apart because nobody wanted to play anymore. [SPEAKER_04]: I will say, unfortunately, though, that is kind of how D&D specifically was written.

18:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Only recently has ridden with the coast decided to change how they not even, not even the rules really, but to change how they talk about what D&D is to match what their consumers have started to do [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm, so technically, he was running D&D probably by the book. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

19:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Breath of the Wild? [SPEAKER_01]: But do I like it because I get a certain satisfaction in my brain? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I get to scratch that it should my brain as I get closer and closer to a hundred percent because I'm a completionist or am I actually having fun? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, couldn't tell you.

19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing about breath of the wild is, yes, it starts off and you're just, you know, shirtless on a mountain top, but as soon as you approach a settlement or, you know, you get to, you get close to Zoro's domain and Rails pop up. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, here, you found the story. [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're going to go do story for a few hours and you explore in the path between the stories, but the rails are absolutely there.

20:20 [SPEAKER_00]: You just, you get a little bit of messing around time before you stumble into them. [SPEAKER_04]: I think the Sims is another example of that because I've played thousands upon thousands hours of hours of Sims, but at some point if you aren't making up your own stories for the Sims and your brain and making it play out, the game just doesn't do go anywhere because it's yeah, so you have to give yourself rails and Sims.

20:49 [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to keep playing, usually I play a game for a little bit, and then like, well, I guess I'll make a new sim and start a whole new game because I don't know where I'm going with this. [SPEAKER_04]: And I've done that thousands of times, so, you know, maybe there's something to it.

21:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But do the rails of our minds, outweigh the sandbox of our hearts. [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh [SPEAKER_06]: Well, is anyone else have anything about Sandbox games are bad period before we rank them?

21:29 [SPEAKER_06]: I think we've covered it. [SPEAKER_06]: Great, then Jasmine, since you love Sandbox games, what is your take on this? [SPEAKER_06]: What do you rank this take? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, then I'm gonna say, since I do really love Sandboxes, I'm gonna say it's pretty spicy. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna give it a seven.

21:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I've been torn on this for pretty much the whole conversation. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that alone makes me feel like a seven is correct. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry, Kenzie. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think this is very spicy as I 100% agree with you. [SPEAKER_04]: I also 100% agree with me.

22:04 [SPEAKER_06]: And a fully. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I guess, here's the part that always kind of, even though this is kind of a show that I created, that I always kind of go back and forth on, it's like, I agree, but does that make it a spicy take or not? [SPEAKER_06]: You know, because like, to me, it's not a spicy take.

22:23 [SPEAKER_06]: So I should give it a low score, but in the grand scheme of things, is it a spicy take? [SPEAKER_00]: There's a strange aspect to the show, wherein if you argue your point too well, it makes it less spicy. [SPEAKER_04]: Correct. [SPEAKER_06]: Don't say the quiet part out loud. [SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, that was my goal because I need to make people agree with me.

22:45 [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh. [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, then. [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no, no, no, give it a spicy. [SPEAKER_04]: Give it a spicy rating. [SPEAKER_04]: Give it a spicy rating. [SPEAKER_04]: I also want to win the game. [SPEAKER_06]: Twenty-five, twenty-five, twenty-five. [SPEAKER_06]: I, I think it's not a spicy and also for math purposes, I've been to give it a four.

23:06 [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_06]: I agree with you, and I think that a lot of people would as well. [SPEAKER_03]: Can't believe you just wanted to make it easy on yourself to do math. [SPEAKER_06]: I was going to give it a three. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well, I appreciate you wanted to make it easy on yourself to do math.

23:24 [SPEAKER_06]: Ha ha ha. [SPEAKER_06]: Which gives the average to be a six. [SPEAKER_06]: Just still pretty good. [SPEAKER_04]: Jasmine's got me beat. [SPEAKER_06]: Buy a third. [SPEAKER_04]: First. [SPEAKER_04]: It's my last. [SPEAKER_00]: Spicy little third. [SPEAKER_04]: If I was winning by a third, I'd be like, I'm still winning.

23:43 [SPEAKER_06]: Ha ha ha ha. [SPEAKER_06]: Too shy. [SPEAKER_06]: Next up, Robin, what do you got? [SPEAKER_00]: All right, I'm nervous about this one. [SPEAKER_00]: I think people are going to come for me in the comments. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to see how this goes. [SPEAKER_00]: Feet of the mind is objectively worse than playing with physical managers.

24:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know people are going to come for me for this, but hear me out. [SPEAKER_00]: I've found that having physical representations of what I'm talking about at the table to be honestly an accessibility tool. [SPEAKER_00]: When you are in combat, especially for more than a single enemy, things get so complicated so quickly, and without details present to help the players understand what the parameters are, where they are, what they're working with, all they have is their character sheet to go on.

24:39 [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is a super spicy take because it ignores every other TTRPG that isn't mass or combat based. [SPEAKER_04]: I can't run a monster hearts battle or monster hearts combat with minis and a map. [SPEAKER_04]: because there aren't rules that require there to be any sort of math or like distance measuring or anything like that.

25:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So I think it's a hot take because you're saying it about go ahead. [SPEAKER_00]: I will counter you on this because I think it just makes your map making easier because you don't need to worry about, you don't need to worry about squares or [SPEAKER_00]: a map and a layout of what they're working with, so that they can say, oh, I'm going to run to the kitchen to get such and such utensil to help me deal with the issue in front of me, whereas if it's theater to the mind, you go, I don't know how many rooms are in this place or where my friends are in relation to me and you're just giving, you're giving your [SPEAKER_04]: I think that in a lot of these other games, the players have the onus to make that up themselves.

26:01 [SPEAKER_04]: The GM doesn't have to say where everybody is, what everything is, they can go, I'm going to go do a kitchen in this kitchen there as a knife and then the GM goes. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, correct. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're saying like, and your hot take too, I just wanted to make sure that this is like for everything, not just combat because like, I don't necessarily disagree with combat, [SPEAKER_01]: for everything.

26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: There's just should be maps and minis. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, obviously it gets to a point where it's practically more difficult, but any extent where it is. [SPEAKER_00]: any instance wherein you can provide a map as a resource, it's only going to help your players. [SPEAKER_06]: Think about, look, we have all stood in front of an unlocked unmagic door for 45 minutes before it wrong.

26:49 [SPEAKER_06]: Whether there is a physical manifestation of it, or it's in our brains. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if that's going to make any difference. [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't, that doesn't make theater of the mind better. [SPEAKER_06]: I am so conflicted because I love, as my partner puts it, fancy chest.

27:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Hi. [SPEAKER_06]: I love it so much, but I feel like in a way, who has about to just talk myself out of something. [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead, feel free. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I was just about to say, I feel like when I do theater of the mind stuff, I'm freer because I'm not limited with what's in front of me, [SPEAKER_06]: I just talked myself until like, no, and then I lift up my little guy and he does a backflip.

27:35 [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm doing the flip with my hands as opposed to just saying I do a backflip. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_04]: It's also super dependent on table because like my home game, it's not, and my home game is D&D. [SPEAKER_04]: Number one, I do think D&D combat is virtually impossible to do theater of the mind because somebody's gonna be mad.

27:57 [SPEAKER_04]: That they thought they were closer or they thought they were farther and they're gonna disagree with where they were and it's a mess. [SPEAKER_04]: I do think actually for D&D combat, you need some sort of grid map. [SPEAKER_04]: And I found that that's true because I've lived through trying to do theater of the mind and it my players just being like, I have no idea where I am in relation to anything.

28:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I don't think that it isn't inherently better than theater of the mind. [SPEAKER_04]: I think that it depends upon the game you are playing. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: uh... so i think uh... are we ready to vote uh... uh... score house by sea robins take of uh... theater of the mind is objectively worse than using minis is yeah to make the math hard on you i'm giving it an eight point two whoo we cannot separate this cabinet week and not set that precedents you can write it up and give you a nine [SPEAKER_01]: Jasmine, I'm so split because I agree for combat, but probably combat only, it's pretty, okay, I'm gonna say, it's, us, 7.5.

29:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Got it. [SPEAKER_00]: That's hard as possible. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: I love it. [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I think I do also think that this is really spicy, the no leeway on it being better. [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm, I'm going to give it a nine. [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's really spicy honestly and oh, God.

29:51 [SPEAKER_06]: It is 26.7 divided by three. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, that's just under 26.7. [SPEAKER_06]: That's nine point nine. [SPEAKER_06]: No, that's not that's eight. [SPEAKER_04]: No, I think it's 24.7. [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's, oh fuck, I did the math wrong. [SPEAKER_04]: Because it was 9.02 plus 7.

30:08 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why I pulled the calculator out because I was like, oh, he's already got it wrong. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: You know what? [SPEAKER_06]: What was yours? [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I gave you a 40 to zero. [SPEAKER_06]: Now I'm going back in, and then my score. [SPEAKER_06]: That's tracking on the zero.

30:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So what's the actual score? [SPEAKER_04]: It's 8.2. [SPEAKER_04]: 8.2, all right. [SPEAKER_06]: 8.2, great. [SPEAKER_06]: And to round it out, I want to present everyone here with just a question to tickle the mind. [SPEAKER_06]: Is cereal a soup? [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I don't want it to be. [SPEAKER_02]: No, I want to really think it needs an explanation, but Jasmine apparently needs it to be explained. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't accept this. [SPEAKER_01]: A soup is a combination of spices and typically some sort of a broth. [SPEAKER_01]: I can see the world where someone would try to argue like it's cold, so it's like a spacho, but you can't have a cold chowder.

31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no cold chowder, therefore milk is not a soup. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the dividing line, cause I really want Jasmine to be correct. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the dividing line is that soup is savory. [SPEAKER_00]: And so you can't have a sweet soup, which most cereals are. [SPEAKER_04]: You just haven't tried hard enough.

31:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to. [SPEAKER_06]: Is this like a square rectangle situation? [SPEAKER_06]: So, soup is not, so cereal is not soup Robin by that definition, but is soup cereal. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they're fundamentally different categories of things is a savory oatmeal as soup. [SPEAKER_06]: There's no broth.

31:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it is. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I mean though. [SPEAKER_01]: And like or like a cream of wheat. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then is Mac and cheese a soup. [SPEAKER_04]: Mac and cheese could be a mac and cheese. [SPEAKER_04]: So sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: So sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was going to say some time Mac and cheese is liquidy.

32:15 [SPEAKER_02]: The cheese. [SPEAKER_00]: The cheese is on sauce. [SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't do it. [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't mean it's not so mac and cheese. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, I think that's a sauce versus broth question, because I think that's not a good idea. [SPEAKER_00]: How goofy it is or how like loose it is, it's a sauce.

32:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a real pasta. [SPEAKER_06]: It's cereal up pasta. [SPEAKER_01]: Look, if milk isn't a broth, I am more willing to entertain that because I really do think the base broth or the base water is extremely important. [SPEAKER_01]: And like a cream base or a tomato base situation is closer to pasta.

32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we got it, folks. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's it. [SPEAKER_00]: We got it. [SPEAKER_06]: Boom, solved. [SPEAKER_06]: We solved it. [SPEAKER_06]: We solved it. [SPEAKER_06]: We solved it. [SPEAKER_06]: Serial is pasta. [SPEAKER_06]: You're awesome. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: You're awesome.

33:18 [SPEAKER_06]: Well, to wrap up this and to recap today's episode, we have solidified that Kenzie's sandbox gaming is bad take is the least spicy at a six out of ten. [SPEAKER_06]: Who was who said that? [SPEAKER_06]: then Jasmine's min-maxing is good and should be an e-sport got a six point three three three three three three three repeating infinity.

33:47 [SPEAKER_06]: And then to wrap it up, Robbins, theater of the mind is objectively worse than using minis. [SPEAKER_06]: Got an 8.2 for the spiciest take of today, but really, I think the winner is cereal. [SPEAKER_04]: So I win again. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you all. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you all. [SPEAKER_01]: So you brought it back around to become the winner.

34:10 [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you all for joining us today. [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you to our amazing guest, Jasmine and Kenzie. [SPEAKER_06]: Robin, this is our channel. [SPEAKER_06]: So we're here. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm down with it, Kenzie. [SPEAKER_06]: Do y'all have anything you want to plug?

34:28 [SPEAKER_04]: uh... yes i would love to as mentioned at the top of the show um... you should go check out my podcast queer pg we're an actual play podcast focuses on telling queer stories using queer games and currently i actually don't probably still currently i'm not exactly sure when this episode is coming out but uh... you should go check us out because we are in the middle of our moonlight on roseville beach season and it is you're not for some crazy times over there [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find me on socials at Jazzy loves drama.

35:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And I also play a lot with twice-rolled tales. [SPEAKER_01]: We have some more stuff coming up soon and a really exciting season planned for next season. [SPEAKER_01]: And the last thing is I also have my own cute little podcast unrelated to tabletop games. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just me and a friend talking about rom-coms.

35:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So if anyone is a rom-com lover, you can check it out. [SPEAKER_01]: It's called Chenanigans in Sue. [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you all for listening again. [SPEAKER_06]: If you enjoyed it, this has been the DICE cabinet, and if you want more, you can head on over to our Patreon at patreon.com slash magehand high five, where you can get more as part of our download tier, in addition to many other fun goodies, like talkbacks and home brew items.

35:41 [SPEAKER_06]: And with that, the cabinet is closed. [SPEAKER_00]: Want to show your support for our show? [SPEAKER_00]: Want to hear us talk more about it? [SPEAKER_00]: Then check out our Patreon on a patreon.com such Maychan High Five. [SPEAKER_00]: We've got all kinds of goodies from $2. [SPEAKER_00]: If you just want to show your support to $5, which gets you extra stuff like home brew content, early access to merch and a whole second extra podcast Maychan download where we talk about the behind the scenes, the episodes.

36:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you really want to go to the distance, our $10 tier includes all the above plus. [SPEAKER_00]: monthly live streams and creative content from the cast that you can't get anywhere else. [SPEAKER_00]: Check us out at patreon.com slash maychan high five. [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks to Jacob Kersner for a music and sheen Smith for our logo and our cover art.

36:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Check out our website at maychanhighfive.com and look for a soul across social media. [SPEAKER_00]: We are on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Discord, Blue Sky, and wherever else we may be, we're going to be there at maychan high five. [SPEAKER_00]: Go to your podcast, your of choice and throw a five to a few are way makes a huge help.

36:41 [SPEAKER_00]: It says a little screw you to the algorithm and it helps us get found by new listeners. [SPEAKER_00]: So please have an offer and do it and those who have already. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_00]: We love you. [SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm going to shout out all of our original and up high subscribers over on Patreon.

36:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to do it in one breath. [SPEAKER_00]: Crimson Crown, finding new ways of making rubber-gricked give me this power, so make it as long as possible for me, Rob, and Michael Carey-Marinot, multi-asher Luke Sharples, Miranda Couple, Jay, The O'Lsweight, Lindsey Dale Hanpecker, Dame, Dippy-Fresh Charles Zelda, Jeff, Debra Jacobson, Jackson-Mauer, Aquarina Sinana, Madsagerley, Keep-Morken-Faper, Kathleen Ayers, Kellen-Muber, Trapper-Lief, Mac, Patrick Kipping, Men, Debbie, Naked in the reddit, Trick, and two-taste, you haven't knew in every spa, and I'm lovely as Elson-Devavis does cover today, and I'm making out for Stokey Liz, Carey Lee, Jonathan Gun, Tyler Gardner, I'll just all draw a lot of bang, Laura, Kicked, men, Alex, Amy Richardson,

37:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I sound a new approach. [SPEAKER_00]: I apologize to those of you whose names I blipped over in the process of it, but I think I'm ready for more challenge. [SPEAKER_00]: So here we go. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell your friends about the show. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell your first about the show. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell renowned character actor Kyle McLaughlin about the show.

37:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know if he likes D&D, but if he does, then if he listened to the show, I would be enormously happy and good just I. [SPEAKER_00]: So do that. [SPEAKER_00]: And when you do, use the hashtag MHA5 and hey. [SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye, five.