219: Paul Grayson's Inner Demons

0:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Commander Shepherd, and this is my favorite lorecast on the Citadel. [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome to the Mass Effect lorecast. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm in seven the legend. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Genesis. [SPEAKER_05]: Join us. [SPEAKER_07]: As we explore along tides of light. [SPEAKER_07]: And through shows of dust.

0:30 [SPEAKER_07]: To see where this lore began. [SPEAKER_05]: And consider where it may go. [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome and keyless live specters to another awesome episode of the Mass Effect Lorcast. [SPEAKER_07]: We have a very heavy episode today though, but before we get into that, joining me as always is my co-host Genesis.

1:05 [SPEAKER_07]: Genesis, how are you doing? [SPEAKER_05]: I'm doing really good. [SPEAKER_05]: It's been a little bit hectic, but today is exciting. [SPEAKER_05]: And then I'm really excited for Saturday. [SPEAKER_05]: I really am this year. [SPEAKER_05]: oh yeah yeah you're going to a gaming convention right yeah the Portland Retro Gaming Expo a lot of big names are showing up this year and I'm excited to meet and great yes including some mass effect voice actors yes the voice actor for sovereign is going to be there and Suvi from Andromeda [SPEAKER_07]: Man, that's awesome.

1:41 [SPEAKER_07]: All right. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we might have an update. [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe later on how that goes. [SPEAKER_07]: But for now, like I mentioned, we have a very heavy episode today covering a lot of topics that might make you feel uneasy. [SPEAKER_07]: Certainly some stuff you would not want your young children to hear.

2:02 [SPEAKER_07]: For example, you know, we'll just do a blanket kind of [SPEAKER_07]: You know, viewer discretion advised warning here. [SPEAKER_07]: We're gonna be talking about things like suicide. [SPEAKER_07]: We're gonna be talking about things that are very heavy in terms of mental health and emotional abuse.

2:23 [SPEAKER_07]: So, take that as it is. [SPEAKER_07]: If you got kids in the car, maybe listen to this episode a little bit later. [SPEAKER_05]: No, I think you hit the marks on that one, it's definitely a very heavy episode, but we won't dwell too much on some of the things. [SPEAKER_05]: But the addiction one, I feel like we're going to have a lot to talk about because it is one of the big things that he goes through.

2:49 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, so as we left it, he being Paul Grayson, Paul told the elusive man to basically go fork himself, and that his daughter, and I'd say daughter loosely, but, you know, daughter, Jillian Grayson, she was on that deep space expedition with the Koreans, presumably safe from Cerberus's grasp, and oh, by the way, Timmy boy, if you try to come after me, [SPEAKER_05]: It's a pretty big threat, so they can definitely do a lot of damage there.

3:24 [SPEAKER_07]: Hell of a threat for the end, and to threaten the elusive man, nevertheless, you're video by the way has paused on a very flattering image of you, Genesis. [SPEAKER_07]: You're like, you look like you just hit some of that marry at a green, which is what my Ohio friends might know it as, or perhaps some jazz cabbage.

3:46 [SPEAKER_07]: Perhaps some red sand or are you doing your own red sand over there? [SPEAKER_07]: That's kind of how it looked. [SPEAKER_05]: Um, maybe maybe not. [SPEAKER_05]: I am not at liberty to say right now. [SPEAKER_07]: Like I was saying, three years have passed since the end of Mass Effect Assension.

4:08 [SPEAKER_07]: That's where we left off things when we last talked about Paul. [SPEAKER_07]: And now almost three years have passed, so we are now in about 21.86. [SPEAKER_07]: So this is just before the events of Mass Effect three take place. [SPEAKER_07]: For reference, the first part of Grayson's story, Mass Effect Extension took place just a couple of months after the battle of the Citadel in Mass Effect 1.

4:34 [SPEAKER_07]: So almost three years of past. [SPEAKER_07]: And that means that Paul has been in hiding and deep cover, if you want to call it that. [SPEAKER_07]: Anyone listening along, want to guess where he goes? [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, so now that you've had your guesses, I will spoil it for you Omega, which I always felt like was a giant mistake, but for Paul, he knows that Omega is kind of like the one confirmed place of civilization in the Milky Way, where Cerberus and the elusive man don't have a foothold.

5:12 [SPEAKER_07]: They are actively deterred, in fact, Genesis, what did you think of Paul's decision to hide out on Omega? [SPEAKER_05]: It's a little bit of a comfort place for him because it's a layout he knows. [SPEAKER_05]: He feels it's a little bit of a home court advantage. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he doesn't really have a home to go back to.

5:29 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's not like he can go to the Ascension program and stay there at Gerson Academy. [SPEAKER_05]: He needs somewhere that he can deem himself safe. [SPEAKER_05]: So I understand why he chose Omega rather than like some little backwater planet where nobody's going to know him where he'd have to truly pick up.

5:49 [SPEAKER_05]: from scratch and start again, at least on Omega he's already made some contacts. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and I think maybe his star process was going along the lines of I can hide in a crowd. [SPEAKER_07]: Now, the way this is a pretty telling excerpt from the book, it says, even if they knew Grayson was hiding here, it wouldn't be easy to get to him.

6:12 [SPEAKER_07]: and they are referencing specifically how unpopular Cerberus is on Omega. [SPEAKER_07]: Being that Cerberus is a human supremacist organization. [SPEAKER_07]: Omega is the, you know, haven for unsavory aliens and gangs and lot ofitarians and yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So we know that Cerberus is on popular on Omega and we should also keep in mind that the events of the Omega DLC have not yet happened.

6:39 [SPEAKER_07]: But to me, again, this seems like Paul should assume that the elusive man has some level of access everywhere, including Omega. [SPEAKER_07]: Also, if you're on the run, why go to one of the largest stations in the galaxy where you might easily stand out, because there are humans on Omega, but there's far more aliens.

7:04 [SPEAKER_05]: But it could also be that he just wants to be another human that's going to be avoided and ignored and blend into the crowd that's there. [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I mean, fair, but, you know, like you mentioned, he has to support himself. [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly, he needs money, he needs work, he has to get it from somewhere, and he already had made several non-servorous contacts before he had to leave previously.

7:34 [SPEAKER_07]: right and you know he he has these skills that he developed during his time as Cerberus operative specifically a field agent and we know that these would make working as a mercenary much easier and that's also that thought runs through his mind as well that he will be able to finish jobs [SPEAKER_07]: Just fine, where he also feels like it's dingy and this unsavory place, the serverist is not going to be there.

8:12 [SPEAKER_07]: But again, if you're the elusive man, I think Omega might be one of my first guesses for where he was. [SPEAKER_07]: But that's, so that's, in my opinion, his first mistake that he makes while being on the run. [SPEAKER_07]: The second is he he changes his name. [SPEAKER_07]: Now that might sound like a good idea, right?

8:33 [SPEAKER_07]: But he chooses, okay, are you ready for this? [SPEAKER_07]: He chooses Paul Johnson. [SPEAKER_07]: Why? [SPEAKER_07]: Dude, come on that might work on a vortia. [SPEAKER_07]: But like these are humans after you. [SPEAKER_07]: Johnson, Paul Johnson, really? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's definitely not the smartest one to go with.

8:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Johnson is an extremely common last name, yes, but sticking with Paul is not the smartest idea. [SPEAKER_05]: If you really wanted to stick with Paul so that way you didn't get confused by what people were calling you, make your last name Paulson. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, complete change your first name, change your middle name, make your last name Paulson.

9:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Because a lot of people will go, but want to be go by their last name. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I guess, but yeah, keeping it as Paul is like, [SPEAKER_07]: Man, you're flirting, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you

10:01 [SPEAKER_07]: Hmm, okay, so you're thinking maybe he purposefully tried not to hide that bad. [SPEAKER_05]: It's a thought, I don't, I can't really support it with anything, but it's a thought that popped into my head. [SPEAKER_07]: So, speaking of his work, let's talk about Paul's new employer. [SPEAKER_07]: He signs up to work as one of Arya's mercenaries.

10:22 [SPEAKER_07]: So the guy who was trained to hate aliens for like more than a decade is now working for arguably the most badass one. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if you're gonna flip sides, go bigger, go home, I guess. [SPEAKER_07]: I guess he was thinking, okay, I gotta hide and work for someone who I know that is one of the few beings in the Milky Way that they'll lose a van with think twice about wronging.

10:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's also a very valid point because we know that Arya and the elusive man definitely have a history, but they I think that they try to keep away from each other because of that. [SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_07]: And they do end up actually talking to each other during this book.

11:09 [SPEAKER_07]: It's a little bit later though. [SPEAKER_07]: And it is on one of these jobs for Arya that Paul runs into an old foe. [SPEAKER_07]: His addiction to Red Sand. [SPEAKER_07]: He has been clean since he went into hiding almost three years ago, but Arya has Grayson and his crew attack a Talon's warehouse.

11:30 [SPEAKER_07]: Now, Arya says that they have been selling the drug red sand, but the problem is that they haven't been giving her a cut of the cash. [SPEAKER_07]: So, Grayson and the squad that he's commanding, they get the red sand, and then there's this interesting internal conflict that Grayson goes through.

11:51 [SPEAKER_07]: Do I take the sand directly back to Omega, or I'm sorry, to afterlife? [SPEAKER_07]: So he's rationalizing this in his head as well. [SPEAKER_07]: There's plenty of junkies and gangs surrounding the streets of Omega immediately outside of afterlife. [SPEAKER_07]: After life would be a huge target because it's already a central command post.

12:13 [SPEAKER_07]: And he ultimately tells us crew, let's stash it on my apartment and we'll arrange a pick-up tomorrow. [SPEAKER_05]: Talk about scurting the line of danger. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, well to me, and I think anyone else who has struggled with addiction before, [SPEAKER_05]: uh... maybe i'm being a bit cynical what do you think no actually agree with you on this one uh... he has his rationalizations but this is his addict brain speaking it's telling him that he can manage having it in his house no problem but knowing that the temptation is there it's going to be a huge temptation [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's like, you know, why, why even flirt with that?

13:05 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I mean, find somewhere else to stash it if you don't want to take it back to afterlife. [SPEAKER_07]: But I, I think he's like subconsciously scheming, if that makes sense. [SPEAKER_07]: That's the addict brain that you're talking about. [SPEAKER_07]: And yeah, just keeping it in your apartment like [SPEAKER_07]: Dude, you know, you're setting yourself up for failure here, but I guess that's not like surprising considering his history of self-destructive behavior.

13:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it fits right in line with it and I really do think that this, this was a very good moment in the book from reading it and knowing what that internal conversation is like. [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, that's just one of so many different internal conversations that we get for Paul that we don't get a lot for other characters a little bit for Kaylee, but we get a lot of internal dialogue for Paul, specifically about the addiction.

14:04 [SPEAKER_07]: Now I want to take a step back and let's also talk about romance. [SPEAKER_07]: Grayson is sleeping with one of his squadmates named Lysel, which by the way, when I was listening to this on audiobook, I kept hearing Lysel, and I kept thinking about Baldur's Gate. [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yet no, Githyanky and I'm sorry, don't really have a whole lot in common though, so easy to separate that.

14:29 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think they'd like each other. [SPEAKER_07]: Githyanky are a lot more like Vorchum. [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and I do not think that Lazel would like the Assyria all that much at all. [SPEAKER_07]: No. [SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, so Lazel is an Assyria who also happens to be Arya's daughter.

14:54 [SPEAKER_05]: But nobody knows this information. [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah, no one knows that the human is sleeping with Ariah's daughter, which by the way, if you're like, whoa dude, I didn't even know Ariah had kids. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no one knows at this point in the lore until this book comes out. [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so Ari, it does have a daughter named Lizelle, who works for her.

15:22 [SPEAKER_07]: And when they were, so basically are Lizelle, did you get this vibe from Lizelle that the way the book describes her is, she's kind of this like stereotypical gangster woman who is a little bit of a femme fatale. [SPEAKER_05]: I definitely got that from her very much like portraying the badass being, you know, the wild child going out partying all that, but then again, she is still in her maiden phase, and so this is the time for her to be doing stuff like that.

15:58 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So there's also this difference in maturity. [SPEAKER_07]: So you bring up her being in the maiden phase of Paul recognizes that he's in a far different phase of his life. [SPEAKER_07]: You know, he's he's middle-aged toward, you know, getting closer toward that senior citizen discount.

16:18 [SPEAKER_07]: And [SPEAKER_07]: So we have this point in the book where Paul is thinking to himself, and he says, Lacell always made him feel like a cradle robber. [SPEAKER_07]: Despite the fact that she was almost a full-century older than him. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, doesn't that sound familiar? [SPEAKER_07]: It does sound familiar, but the thing is, basically, he's talking about how he feels like it's wrong.

16:46 [SPEAKER_07]: that he's dating Lizel and I'll say dating, but he's sleeping with her really. [SPEAKER_07]: It's not like a super domestic relationship, you know, like the definitely just sleeping the other and it doesn't seem to be that. [SPEAKER_05]: No, they're not living together anymore. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

17:00 [SPEAKER_07]: So we have Grayson contemplating whether this relationship is creepy, because in his own words, he considers himself a quote-unquote weather geaser. [SPEAKER_07]: But that listself probably has more in common with his daughter. [SPEAKER_07]: Ew. [SPEAKER_05]: I, yeah, I don't like that, especially because at this point, Gillian's 15, maybe four, uh, is she 15, she was 12 free years later, 15.

17:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: No. [SPEAKER_07]: Like, okay, so I want to ask the question, is it a positive or a negative reflection on Paul? [SPEAKER_07]: Because he does see this and he thinks of this as at least a little bit inappropriate. [SPEAKER_07]: So he does have the conscience to recognize that it's wrong, but he's still sleeping with her.

17:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, okay, so we see this with Lee, the Lyara romance too a little bit because she acts young, she is a young, in a sorry terms, yet she is fully adult in any galactic standards. [SPEAKER_05]: Now, it's well to me, acts older, and it's probably just like the lust for life, the youthful energy that is making Paul feel that he is too old.

18:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, there's there's that point in the book where Licella's like, come on Paul, let's go dance at after life. [SPEAKER_07]: You remember that? [SPEAKER_07]: And he's like, oh, go on. [SPEAKER_07]: I'll catch you later. [SPEAKER_07]: And then she says, well, okay, but don't take too long.

18:32 [SPEAKER_07]: Or maybe I'll be dancing with a crow can. [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_05]: So it is like the flirty younger, it is the younger wife syndrome, you know, it is the trophy wife syndrome where you've got this hot chick that you're dating. [SPEAKER_05]: And then you're the older guy who doesn't really want to go out to party, but you love the idea of her going out and having fun and having that youthful energy.

18:56 [SPEAKER_05]: So no, I don't see anything wrong with this. [SPEAKER_07]: Um, yeah, I see something wrong with it, but only because Paul does. [SPEAKER_07]: So like, Lizel is, this is clearly a consensual in the book, however, because Paul feels it key about it and because he brings up Lizel in the same thought as his daughter, if I were Paul's friend, I'd be like, look dude, I hear what you just said and you got to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're doing the right thing.

19:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, or if you just need to get over yourself and have fun with the what 150 year old, sorry, a spray 150. [SPEAKER_07]: So, okay, so kind of side tangential to that and I think you'll know where I'm going when I say side tangential. [SPEAKER_07]: Paul is also keeping an constant contact with Kaley Sanders and we learn that he has video call to her once every couple of weeks for the past three years.

20:00 [SPEAKER_07]: But the most recent time, that same night that they stash, they red sand, and Paul's apartment. [SPEAKER_07]: Kaylee notices that Paul is lean, he's got disheveled and he's on edge. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's upset about something. [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe it's the thousands of credits worth of red sand underneath his bed at the time.

20:26 [SPEAKER_05]: But it's nice to know that they've kept in touch. [SPEAKER_05]: I do like this that they've continued this relationship that we don't get to see, but at least we know that they've kept this up. [SPEAKER_05]: So having Kaley reintroduced doesn't feel like it's completely out of nowhere. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, exactly.

20:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And of course, his primary motivating factor for keeping in touch with Kaylee is the Kaylee is still working at the Grissima Academy, so she's still working with these biotically talented kids, even though Jillian is no longer there, Jillian was the link that kept Paul and Kaylee like, that's why they know each other.

21:04 [SPEAKER_07]: So he is keeping in touch with Kaylee because Kaylee is presumably keeping in touch with [SPEAKER_07]: as well as Jillian while they're on that expedition with the Koreans, and he basically wants updates secondhand about how it's daughter's doing. [SPEAKER_07]: And so I found this interesting that Kaylee noticed on the video call, it says she was relieved to see his pupils and teeth which were white, and that she notices there is no rosy pink hue, so in other words there was no indication that he started using red sand again.

21:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Right. [SPEAKER_05]: No vampirism. [SPEAKER_05]: No glowing red eyes. [SPEAKER_04]: No shiny, uh, huge teeth, which was just so weird that the teeth also start to glow. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, pink, too. [SPEAKER_07]: I got a, I got a pause work quick and mentioned something that, that cat, cat table, Abby, is it cat table or cat table?

22:00 [SPEAKER_07]: Catable, Abby says in chat here, well, Kaylee Sanders would know something about sleeping with someone who could be her kid. [SPEAKER_05]: We are not, oh gosh, okay. [SPEAKER_05]: So see I want to bring this line up because of the worst line that I have read in a book in a long time. [SPEAKER_05]: Drum roll, please.

22:21 [SPEAKER_07]: uh... the elusive man told me to pump her for every for information so i decided to pump her at every opportunity i got quote giro from mass effect ascension who is another server's operative in deep cover acting as a scientist in the grissima academy working alongside kaley centers she doesn't know he's a server's operative she's sleeping with him he's much younger uh... and i guess quite a stud [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, he's not a, well, maybe a stunt in the looks department, but he was also a jackrabbit who had no stamina, so ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,

23:09 [SPEAKER_07]: considering that she sleeps with someone who's young enough to be her kid, she can bond with Paul over sleeping with someone who is emotionally young enough to be his kid. [SPEAKER_07]: It doesn't take long for Jillian to come up in this conversation, and that's the worst segue I've ever made.

23:27 [SPEAKER_07]: But the book tells us that Paul feels conflicting [SPEAKER_07]: He says, I'm always thinking of her. [SPEAKER_07]: So then Paul asks whether Kaylee has heard anything from the Koreans about Julian. [SPEAKER_07]: She says, no, and he says, it's better this way. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And that breaks my mama heart, like, to know that your kid is out there somewhere and you can't interact with them.

24:00 [SPEAKER_05]: You can't get a hold of them, but it's safer and better that way. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you can tell like, he's barely holding back the pain. [SPEAKER_07]: They're like, he doesn't actually think it's better that way, but he's he's like trying to convince himself, basically. [SPEAKER_07]: So Kaylee tries to get Paul to visit the Grisson Academy because she notices he's sad after that map or in the conversation.

24:28 [SPEAKER_07]: She wants to cheer him up and she wants him to see the advances that they've made. [SPEAKER_07]: Now, that's a great point in my opinion, because he's quite well aware even three years into it that he's still in hiding and probably will have to be for the rest of his life from servers, and altruistically, he does not want to get Kaylee involved.

24:55 [SPEAKER_05]: No, absolutely not. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So this phone call leaves him reeling with a ton of emotions, it leaves him reconciling other emotions of guilt. [SPEAKER_07]: He's racking his brain and remembering all the things that Cerberus did to his daughter and what he allowed them to do, the missions that he carried out for Cerberus.

25:15 [SPEAKER_07]: He starts considering whether his current work as a mercenary is any more [SPEAKER_07]: the way that he phrases it in his own mind is, so what if the target deserved it? [SPEAKER_07]: Now does that make any less moral? [SPEAKER_07]: You know, like as in his work as a mercenary, he's taking out other criminals, right?

25:39 [SPEAKER_07]: So what if that target deserved it as opposed to my targets at service? [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe they didn't deserve it. [SPEAKER_07]: Does it make my work now as a mercenary, any less moral? [SPEAKER_07]: So he's going through this identity crisis [SPEAKER_07]: and he starts crying. [SPEAKER_07]: And as anyone who has struggled with addiction knows, guilt will drive you to relapse fast, very, very fast.

26:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, guilt is a big one. [SPEAKER_05]: And almost any emotion that you were not prepared to handle, even the ones that we call the, quote, positive ones. [SPEAKER_05]: If you get a really high-on-life moment, you're like, hey, I know how to kick this feeling up, even another step, and then you can fall back into addiction.

26:30 [SPEAKER_05]: or, you know, if you are going through physical pain or any other type of emotional pain, and you know, hey, I can just numb this all the way. [SPEAKER_05]: And Grace knows this. [SPEAKER_07]: This emotion in particular, the guilt is especially powerful for pushing Grace and back toward the addiction, because the guilt is part of what was driving his addiction in the first place.

26:53 [SPEAKER_05]: The guilt over what he was contributing to Jillian and her upbringing, yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: and of course he's tempted. [SPEAKER_07]: So after the phone call, the siren song of addiction calls to him, like the green goblin, but instead of a mask from across the room, it's a bag of red sand, under its bed.

27:09 [SPEAKER_07]: And literally there's this dialogue happening in his mind as if it's the addiction brain talking to him. [SPEAKER_07]: And the addiction brain says, [SPEAKER_07]: So why not enjoy some red sand now? [SPEAKER_07]: And I loved the way that that was written because it's so true. [SPEAKER_07]: Like, if you struggled with addiction, then you know like the the strategums that your like addiction in your mind will play with you.

27:44 [SPEAKER_07]: They are these thoughts that it's like it's toying with you. [SPEAKER_07]: And it's really fucked up. [SPEAKER_07]: But like, it's, and it's raw, that this, this writing is raw, but it's true, and I like it. [SPEAKER_07]: And it actually makes me wonder whether or not Drew Carpison has struggled with the addiction himself in the past.

28:02 [SPEAKER_05]: either himself or he's gone to something like an Allen on where it's the family of addicted of addicted people and or just did some really good research and got to talk to people who go through something like this. [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, no, that sounds like addiction brain. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

28:23 [SPEAKER_07]: It does. [SPEAKER_07]: It does. [SPEAKER_07]: The constant scheming, the, the pseudo logic that it offers you, trying to get you to, to tempt you to take a dust up as, as they would say with Red Sand. [SPEAKER_07]: But here's the interesting thing where we see grace and has truly changed.

28:41 [SPEAKER_07]: He gathers the will power to reject this temptation. [SPEAKER_07]: that is not an easy feat. [SPEAKER_07]: When you're already feeling guilty, you're crying and your addict brain is trying to entice you basically saying that all hope is lost for the future. [SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, why not just take a hit now?

29:02 [SPEAKER_05]: And your drug choice is right there physically right next to you. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it takes like superhuman willpower to reject that temptation, but he does. [SPEAKER_07]: And there are two main motivators. [SPEAKER_07]: He remembers that his commitment to being a better man is for Jillian, even though she's not here.

29:25 [SPEAKER_07]: So in some ways, Jillian is his anti-drug. [SPEAKER_07]: And he also knows, number two, this is the second reason. [SPEAKER_07]: He knows that being on the run from Cerberus, any given second could be his last. [SPEAKER_07]: That's what it says in the book. [SPEAKER_07]: He knows any given second could be his last, so he needs to stay alert.

29:44 [SPEAKER_07]: He needs to say sober, he needs to keep his wits about him. [SPEAKER_07]: But ironically, I think this second reason, I think this kind of stress might actually push him closer relapse. [SPEAKER_05]: definitely because for a lot of people if they're like, well, I could die tomorrow anyways, might as well be high while I'm doing it.

30:04 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's that's also very much an ad-exprane of if I'm going to die soon anyways, might as well go out and style. [SPEAKER_05]: But it's also the other motivator of being jelly and children can be a huge motivator to be to stay sober. [SPEAKER_05]: They can also be part of the reason that you relapse.

30:27 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's interesting that his two key motivations for staying sober could also very quickly be the key motivators [SPEAKER_07]: right. [SPEAKER_07]: I think we're also seeing at this point that his main motivators are external. [SPEAKER_07]: They're not internal. [SPEAKER_07]: They're external.

30:51 [SPEAKER_07]: So that changes throughout the story. [SPEAKER_07]: We'll get into that. [SPEAKER_07]: But there is kind of this sad moment of clarity that he comes to. [SPEAKER_07]: when he's talking himself out of the temptation. [SPEAKER_07]: And he says, I'm not having physical cravings anymore anyway.

31:12 [SPEAKER_07]: It's been so long since I had red sand, you know, and then he thinks to himself, quote, it was never really about the physical cravings. [SPEAKER_07]: Was it? [SPEAKER_07]: Dusting takes away the pain. [SPEAKER_07]: Makes things bearable. [SPEAKER_07]: That one cuts you deep. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it does because for a lot of the things that me myself have gone through for and my history with addiction, it has been the physical craving or even the habit of it, the ritual of doing the thing, the exact same way every time and just the familiarity of it.

31:55 [SPEAKER_05]: and breaking that level of physical addiction was the very hardest part staying sober beyond that has been fairly easy. [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't think it's because I wasn't using it to take away a pain and his addiction sounds like he was using it to take away pain. [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a lot harder.

32:22 [SPEAKER_07]: he was self-medicating for sure and in his position being this, you know, wetwork operative for servers. [SPEAKER_07]: It's not exactly like he can come clean and tell everything to a counselor, right? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think that there's a whole lot of therapy available on Omega.

32:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, or not even on Omega, but when he was working for Cerberus, what therapy is he can't go to an external counselor not working for Cerberus and disclose everything about what he's done? [SPEAKER_07]: He also can't tell everything to a Cerberus sponsored counselor because you know that report's going straight back to the elusive man.

32:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you would have to walk a very thin line and walking a thin line in therapy is not how you're ever going to heal anything. [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, you need to feel safe first and foremost. [SPEAKER_07]: Yukon and Chats as maybe you need to Kelly Chambers? [SPEAKER_07]: Arguable. [SPEAKER_07]: Kelly would definitely feel like she could fix him, though.

33:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Kelly could also feed the next portion of where he leads to. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, so he comes to this second point of clarity during this internal monologue and it says that he, Paul, knew the kind of man he wanted to be, but part of him wouldn't, part of him wouldn't let him forget the man that he once was.

33:42 [SPEAKER_07]: that's hard. [SPEAKER_07]: That's really hard because he's like I brought up guilt before. [SPEAKER_07]: He has this ongoing struggle with guilt. [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_05]: And he knows that he is going to hold all of that, and he can never truly let go of the man he was before, but only hope to continue to strive forward.

34:05 [SPEAKER_05]: But he can't let go of who he was. [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_07]: So this internal struggle [SPEAKER_07]: his demons inside his head is so integral to Paul's entire store arc and we see those demons grow literally and figuratively, but we will get to that after the mid break. [SPEAKER_02]: We have the bacon we have beer, the foods of my people.

34:31 [SPEAKER_08]: Young men have funny ideas of what a star you're like. [SPEAKER_08]: I blame the extra net and computer games. [SPEAKER_00]: Rex, Shepherd, Grant, Shepherd, Rex, Grant. [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, here we are in the middle of the show, where we read out your five-star reviews. [SPEAKER_07]: We don't have any new ones from Apple Podcasts this week, but we do have a couple of comments that I want to highlight from our YouTube and Spotify channels.

34:58 [SPEAKER_07]: On Spotify, [SPEAKER_07]: regretted calling 22 says y'all are doing a fantastic job. [SPEAKER_07]: I need to do my yearly play through this year, going on year 10 of an entire playthrough of a trilogy. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm curious to see if y'all ever cover any of the weapon and armor mega corpse.

35:16 [SPEAKER_07]: little fun fact. [SPEAKER_07]: I ran a home brew campaign with my own rules set in the mass effect universe before the events on the in prime. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's awesome. [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, Genesis and I actually were part of a home brew mass effect five E campaign. [SPEAKER_07]: That one was set before Shepherd is resurrected, right?

35:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, I think that was the timeline and the two years. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and that timeline. [SPEAKER_07]: And we were on Omega a lot. [SPEAKER_07]: So yeah, love the Mass Effect Home Brew and I don't think that we've ever gone into extreme depth about like Han Kadar. [SPEAKER_07]: We haven't gone into a lot of depth there, but a lot of those companies I've looked into and sad to say that there's just not a lot of lore about them besides the fact that they make this armor set they make this armor set what's the one what's the manufacturer of Phoenix armor [SPEAKER_07]: can't remember.

36:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I don't remember. [SPEAKER_07]: It might be Serda. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, anyway, I know that they were heavily focused on medical applications. [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, like there's just not a lot of lore there. [SPEAKER_07]: So if you find one where you think that there's a decent amount of lore that we should dig into, definitely let us know.

36:32 [SPEAKER_07]: But thank you for that comment, regretted coin 22, and there are comments on Spotify now. [SPEAKER_07]: So we read them out occasionally, just go to our most recent episode. [SPEAKER_07]: You can [SPEAKER_07]: comment there. [SPEAKER_07]: If you want to get your words read on the air. [SPEAKER_07]: Genesis, you want to read this comment that we got on YouTube.

36:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: The Melvic 3K laughing my ass off, love the intro. [SPEAKER_05]: Sam and Jen, the shades are fire, loved the glasses and shades combo. [SPEAKER_05]: Double visors for the win. [SPEAKER_05]: Sam, you may really have a career for voice acting. [SPEAKER_05]: That was really good.

37:10 [SPEAKER_05]: At some point, y'all might need the [SPEAKER_07]: I would love that. [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if does the bioregure store sell that? [SPEAKER_07]: Does anyone sell the Kawashivizer? [SPEAKER_07]: I'd get it. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: If it was life-size and I could actually wear it, I would get it.

37:31 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, thank you, the Melvic. [SPEAKER_07]: I think Genesis and I have actually done some voice acting for the Avengers audio drama. [SPEAKER_07]: So thank you for that. [SPEAKER_07]: I appreciate that. [SPEAKER_07]: And that was, of course, referencing our intro from last week.

37:49 [SPEAKER_07]: So, all right. [SPEAKER_07]: Genesis, I've got a voice line for you and I think that this one is a real stumper. [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if you're going to get it. [SPEAKER_07]: We'll see. [SPEAKER_07]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_06]: Here we go.

38:04 [SPEAKER_06]: One of my crews found him. [SPEAKER_06]: Frozen stiff on board a derelict vessel. [SPEAKER_06]: I'll play a one more time. [SPEAKER_06]: One of my crews found him. [SPEAKER_06]: Frozen stiff on board a derelict vessel. [SPEAKER_07]: So tell me [SPEAKER_05]: Um, that sounded mass effect one.

38:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Frozen solid on a derelict vessel. [SPEAKER_05]: Um, gosh. [SPEAKER_05]: Okay. [SPEAKER_05]: You really did. [SPEAKER_05]: I can't even tell who you have. [SPEAKER_07]: Don't look at the cheese chat because people are guessing who it is. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, no twitch chat. [SPEAKER_05]: So it's Mass Effect One, a derelict vessel, the frozen body, and it is the crew.

38:54 [SPEAKER_05]: I honestly cannot think of one where the body's frozen, other than stuff that has to do with like, no, very yet, and no, very yet is all about the rack die. [SPEAKER_07]: all right. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna say full stump. [SPEAKER_07]: I've done it. [SPEAKER_07]: I've stumped. [SPEAKER_07]: I've stumped Genesis.

39:23 [SPEAKER_07]: It's rear-animal Kahoku. [SPEAKER_07]: Talking with Shepherd about that side quest that Kahoku sends you on. [SPEAKER_07]: I believe you meet him in the Citadel Tower. [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, definitely know Kahoku and all of his missions, but what the heck does the frozen body have to do with anything?

39:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, Kohoku is investigating the, uh, same sell that abducted his soldiers, or his sons to his sons team, as Yukon corrects me here in chat and says so, so Shemper is not the only one doing some investigating Kohoku as to and eventually that leads to Kohoku's death. [SPEAKER_07]: So. [SPEAKER_07]: Um, back then when Cerberus was just a alliance black cell, I think that's how they described it, right?

40:10 [SPEAKER_07]: Then it was Red Condon said, oh, that was just one Cerberus cell. [SPEAKER_07]: Um, all right. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I stumped Genesis finally. [SPEAKER_07]: All right, we don't have any new patrons to shout out, but we will shout out our tier 5 patrons as we do every week, butts, butts, butts!

40:25 [SPEAKER_07]: Unfortunately, a benefactor William Superfly 440 Retro about Lieutenant Susino Kira-C and Ed Boy. [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you all so much for your support. [SPEAKER_09]: After time adrift among open stars, a long tide of light and through shows of dust, I will return to where I began. [SPEAKER_10]: Celery and reproduction different, very little sex drive.

40:44 [SPEAKER_10]: If intended to try human, would try you. [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, here we are back in the second half of the show, and Genesis, bad news for Paul Grayson. [SPEAKER_07]: He does not, he's not as hidden as he thought, and it's because Kailang has been spying on him. [SPEAKER_07]: that mother forker.

41:09 [SPEAKER_07]: He knows that Paul is on a mega and the elusive man personally asked Kaileng to bring him back alive so that Paul can be used for Reaper Tech research. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, okay, having introducing Kailang here and having him know where Paul is, okay, but the fact that elusive man wants to do testing on a human, that to me is like, yeah, that's definitely what it is.

41:43 [SPEAKER_07]: He's acting like a spurned little bitch. [SPEAKER_07]: This one he's doing. [SPEAKER_07]: He's, you don't, you don't span me. [SPEAKER_07]: I'll make you pay like, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_07]: Like this is this is clear that Paul's threat to the elusive man, the elusive man never forgot about and took it personally.

42:01 [SPEAKER_04]: That's how big how gone came for three years. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's how big and fragile the ego is on this guy. [SPEAKER_07]: So that night of the call with Kaylee, after turning in the quest, as you could say, turning in the quest with Arya, Paul goes home, starts feeling lonely, and then tempted by the red sand, and he calls over Lousel, [SPEAKER_07]: So, pretty clear terms, he's just using her for sex.

42:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it's so real, it really is. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, he has a rebound girl, but not from a previous relationship, from, well, a relationship with Red Sand. [SPEAKER_05]: It's, you know, replacing one addiction with a different one is something that happens all the time. [SPEAKER_05]: Some people replace drug addiction with a methadone addiction that's supposed to help you curtail your original addiction.

43:12 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, others will use exercise and just be like, oh, but I'm being super healthy now. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm no longer overeating. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm no longer anorexic or bulimic or doing things that are harmful to my body. [SPEAKER_05]: See, I'm working out. [SPEAKER_05]: That's even better for me, right?

43:27 [SPEAKER_05]: but there's still the addiction. [SPEAKER_05]: You can also very easily use sex as an addiction. [SPEAKER_05]: And there are a lot of replacements for the synthetic emotions that illegal drugs can cause in very, quote, legal ways. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and I love this writing because it's so messy, it's super messy.

43:51 [SPEAKER_07]: Paul is not like this role model that anyone really should aspire to be at this point anyway. [SPEAKER_07]: And it's raw, you know, this isn't right, but this is how people act. [SPEAKER_07]: This is real. [SPEAKER_05]: I like that. [SPEAKER_05]: It's not right, but it's real. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

44:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, and I bring up Lizelle here because she's she is over at his place in bed with him, when Kylie and a squad of Cerberus Merck's break in. [SPEAKER_07]: Now there's a short fight, but Grayson and Lizelle ultimately unlocked out by stun guns or stun rounds, uh, tranquilizer darts. [SPEAKER_07]: I think they are right in the book.

44:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, [SPEAKER_07]: and so they're knocked out, and so Kylaing could just pick up Grayson and take his body and leave, but in addition, he decides to slit Losels throat and watch her bleed out. [SPEAKER_05]: That was really hard to read the cold-blooded murder that Kylaing was able to just do without any remorse or regret.

45:00 [SPEAKER_07]: And it talks about in the book, [SPEAKER_07]: when Kailang slits her throat. [SPEAKER_07]: And he watches her bleed out and he just thinks to himself disgusting. [SPEAKER_07]: And it's like, wow, this guy is a psychopath. [SPEAKER_07]: Oh my god. [SPEAKER_07]: And it just makes that every negate interrupt at the end of Mass Effect three, even more satisfying.

45:24 [SPEAKER_07]: Hmm, but it does, it does go to show you that Kiling is kind of like the true believer of the human supremacist group in Cerberus like he really buys into that BS and Then the Cerberus squad carries grace and off to that shuttle off of Omega and You know [SPEAKER_05]: I always try to find the good in people, give me the silver lining, give me the eye and the forever optimist.

45:52 [SPEAKER_05]: I intentionally, the shades that we were talking about in the midbrake, they are pink, they are right my rose colored glasses, because that's the way that I prefer to see the world. [SPEAKER_05]: I can't find anything redeeming about kiling at all. [SPEAKER_07]: He's always written to be the foil, however, in the book, he's less of an just warrantless edge lord.

46:22 [SPEAKER_07]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_07]: He's less of a redder and he's more of just like an actual psychopathic killer. [SPEAKER_07]: Whereas I feel like in the game in Mass Effect 3, we didn't get the book lore there, so we just are like, who's this, you know, cloud? [SPEAKER_07]: You know what I mean?

46:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_05]: I don't understand why I'm supposed to hate this guy and why Anderson really hates him and why he's so much of a badass, and this is the first time that we're seeing him without having this back more. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah, so we fast forward a bit because at this point in the book, it's kind of going over to different stories.

46:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Like you mentioned Anderson, it's going over to talk to talk about Anderson's point of view in the story, talk about Kaylee's point of view in the story. [SPEAKER_07]: Talk about other parts of the story that are progressing. [SPEAKER_07]: But the next part we get from Grayson's story is that he wakes up, and he is strapped to an operating chair.

47:15 [SPEAKER_07]: He's not able to move or speak, and the elusive man is there giving this very villain-esque monologue about what's going to happen to him. [SPEAKER_07]: This is terrifying. [SPEAKER_05]: extremely terrifying and it is one it's show we know the elusive man is a bad guy we know but he's still very charismatic in the games like you you like him in a certain way but in this scene here where he's describing what he is going to have done to Grayson is like oh yeah I [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

48:01 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it is easy to forget because consistently in the game is when he's on screen, he always has the facade up. [SPEAKER_07]: This is off broadcast, right? [SPEAKER_07]: This is a private conversation that he knows that it's not ever going to get out because he's just him, some scientists, [SPEAKER_07]: So here I'll just get into it.

48:29 [SPEAKER_07]: The elusive man describes that he's going to be injecting Grayson with Reaper Nanites and that they are the self-replicating machines that will overtake Grayson's nervous system and body. [SPEAKER_07]: the descriptions here are pretty gruesome but i'll leave it at the point when tubes are inserted into grace and skull and he is like not given an aesthetic right i think it says in the book that he's aware for all of this yeah yeah grace and is aware for a lot of bad things that happen to him [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, he, so notwithstanding the obvious trauma that would come from being awake and aware for all of that, and being aware that you were going to lose your autonomy entirely, like you will not have autonomy, and it's not just that you will be catatonic, it's not just that you will be stuck in one place, it's that there are going to be self-replicating machines

49:39 [SPEAKER_07]: as they live your life. [SPEAKER_07]: This was horrific, and ironically reminded me that although he claims to put humanity first, there is perhaps no one with less humanity in Cerberus than the elusive man. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I like the way he puts steps. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'll give you snaps on that one.

50:08 [SPEAKER_07]: Because he's still in front of a powerless man, strapped to an operating chair, which, by the way, remember, he always contested that he didn't want to experiment on human beings, right? [SPEAKER_07]: Or if he did, then it was necessary for their advancement. [SPEAKER_07]: here there is such anger in the way that the elusive man is describing this and by the way you don't have to shout at someone to show your angry, but there's such anger behind the way he's describing it that it's personal.

50:40 [SPEAKER_07]: You can tell this is personal. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, Grayson is one of the few people that was able to evade the elusive man has enough dirt to truly hurt him. [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, he didn't want that. [SPEAKER_05]: The elusive man had to find him in order to keep everything that he has.

51:03 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, his ego would not allow Grayson to live. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So after the surgery, he wakes up in a cell. [SPEAKER_07]: And he's starving. [SPEAKER_07]: He's dehydrated. [SPEAKER_07]: And he's kind of just gobbling up whatever food horrible looking food and water are left for him.

51:27 [SPEAKER_07]: This transpires over the next few days where he begins hearing these faint, unteligable whispers. [SPEAKER_07]: the first signs of indoctrination, as we know, and he's fighting these voices relentlessly inside his head, and here's where I think his battle with addiction actually helped him prepare his willpower here, because the demons are not metaphorical anymore.

51:56 [SPEAKER_05]: right. [SPEAKER_05]: He's used to a little voice in his head going, hey, why don't you go do this? [SPEAKER_05]: Don't you want this? [SPEAKER_05]: You should listen to me. [SPEAKER_05]: I know I'm right. [SPEAKER_05]: You should go touch the red sand. [SPEAKER_05]: And in this one, he can't tell exactly what these voices are saying to him, but he can hold off longer because he knows how to fight the voices in his head.

52:25 [SPEAKER_07]: there he has been fighting for control of his life for so long that at some level I think this is not new to Grayson. [SPEAKER_07]: Now the format and the medium through which it's happening and the intensity, those are all new and it's terrifying. [SPEAKER_07]: So there's this kind of tug and war back and forth over who has more control over Grayson's mind and how far is the indoctrination of regressing, but ultimately the progress is plateauing.

52:59 [SPEAKER_07]: And that's when the elusive man gets pissed off because he's wanting this to progress faster and so the elusive man decides that he's going to forcibly dose Paul Grayson with Red Sand. [SPEAKER_07]: This is so fucked up. [SPEAKER_05]: Eyond fucked up. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, forced breaking of, forced breaking of sobriety.

53:27 [SPEAKER_05]: That is just one of the most dehumanizing things that you can do to somebody. [SPEAKER_05]: Like, [SPEAKER_05]: I cannot believe that the elusive man went this far, but also the fact that he doesn't do it himself, he makes Kylang walk into the room and do it. [SPEAKER_05]: I was just like, oh, I hate the both of you so much.

53:54 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like dehumanizing is the perfect word for him that you just said dehumanizing because [SPEAKER_07]: Like think about that, he's treating Paul Grace and worse than most of us treat our dogs, our cats. [SPEAKER_07]: He's treating him worse than like cosmetic companies treat their animals they experiment on.

54:18 [SPEAKER_07]: This is like so messed up. [SPEAKER_07]: And the way that the elusive man can justify it is because he's seeking how to understand how to control the indoctrinated. [SPEAKER_07]: It's all for the ego of one man. [SPEAKER_07]: like that, that's what this is. [SPEAKER_07]: And so the drug breaks Paul's resistance, of course.

54:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Allowing the reapers to seize control of his mind and his body. [SPEAKER_07]: And it's throughout these sequences that I think we get some of the most visceral depictions of language, of what indoctrination is like for the person who is indoctrinated. [SPEAKER_07]: a colorful descriptions of what it's like to be inside, and so there's this excerpt in the book that says he was once again trapped inside himself.

55:19 [SPEAKER_07]: He could see and hear everything acutely, but though he was fully aware of his surroundings, it was all somehow distant as if it was filtered before being processed. [SPEAKER_05]: Those words take a second to sink in, and then you realize how terrifying that must be. [SPEAKER_07]: Right, you can't run from that.

55:46 [SPEAKER_05]: No. [SPEAKER_07]: And it's scarce, Grayson. [SPEAKER_07]: which the emotional response itself grace and thanks, okay, maybe this is giving me a little bit of more control over my body because I feel like I'm more in control when I have that intense emotional response. [SPEAKER_07]: And so he tries to summon those at will, but as he pushed back against the [SPEAKER_07]: So there is this tug of war happening and imagine actively battling some other entity for control of your body while you can still see and hear everything.

56:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, uh, that is something that unfortunately many, many people can relate to. [SPEAKER_05]: Being drugged or too intoxicated to make your own decisions. [SPEAKER_05]: or being so gripped by terror that you cannot, you can process everything going on around you, but not being able to react to it.

56:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's actually a lot of us know how this feels. [SPEAKER_07]: It's like the embodiment of powerlessness, having no power at all, even of your own body. [SPEAKER_07]: And now, with the indoctrination, starting to take hold, the elusive man says that, well, now I'm concerned. [SPEAKER_07]: That grace and it could become too dangerous.

57:24 [SPEAKER_07]: It's too dangerous to control anyway. [SPEAKER_07]: So the elusive man orders his team to kill grace in him three days. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm done playing with you. [SPEAKER_05]: I built you up. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm starting to test your limits and now I think you might be too dangerous. [SPEAKER_05]: So we'll kill you in a few days, but I want to see how much I can really push you.

57:47 [SPEAKER_07]: This, yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: That for me, this felt like the elusive man's [SPEAKER_07]: Arguable, whether it was primary or secondary, but regardless, a main goal for the elusive man in doing this to Paul was to break him. [SPEAKER_07]: It wasn't enough to kill Paul. [SPEAKER_07]: He wanted him to suffer.

58:13 [SPEAKER_07]: He wanted to break him and he wanted Paul to be completely aware of it the whole time. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, because Kylan could have killed Grayson way easier and way quicker and I think Kylan even says that in the book that killing Grayson would have been a simple task and I would have not had to be on a mega for as long as he was.

58:36 [SPEAKER_05]: But no, the elusive man wanted to see him break. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh. [SPEAKER_05]: I also wanted to point out that the full indoctrination actually takes a bit of time. [SPEAKER_05]: While Grayson is under a second red sand indoctrination period, the elusive man has the doctors implant him with the device that will allow remote concentrated red sand delivery [SPEAKER_05]: This second dose starts to ramp up the physical effects of the nannites.

59:21 [SPEAKER_05]: We see stretch skin, his bionic ability start to appear and get stronger. [SPEAKER_05]: And the reaper tech itself is becoming more visible. [SPEAKER_07]: He starts losing his hair, too, right? [SPEAKER_07]: I think it mentioned he's losing his hair. [SPEAKER_07]: If you look at the cover of Mass Effect Retribution, the guy who's kind of glowing and red light with pile-like tubes and piping coming off of them, we're glad to believe that that's what Grayson looked like.

59:49 [SPEAKER_07]: during this part. [SPEAKER_07]: But so there is some horrific things happening to him. [SPEAKER_07]: Again, he's completely aware of all of it while it's happening. [SPEAKER_07]: But there is good news. [SPEAKER_07]: Remember that threat that Paul made to the Lusumann, come after me, Kaylee or Jillian, and I'll tell the Alliance everything I know.

1:00:11 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, he made good on that. [SPEAKER_07]: Before getting abducted by Kailang, he sent everything, and I mean everything, to Kaylee, on his terminal in his bedroom. [SPEAKER_07]: He was able to send it off. [SPEAKER_07]: So back to horrible experiment time, hours after that forced red sand injection, [SPEAKER_07]: A Turian strike team attacks the station.

1:00:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I know that we are skipping some stuff here. [SPEAKER_07]: There's a ton of details. [SPEAKER_07]: They're not explicitly poll related. [SPEAKER_07]: So we'll get to them in another episode. [SPEAKER_07]: But as far as poll goes, [SPEAKER_07]: You know, basically this is before that three day window where they had a deadline to kill Grayson.

1:00:58 [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, the elusive man and some guards are walking to kill Grayson, right? [SPEAKER_07]: And the Turian Strike team hits the station, the server station, where they are. [SPEAKER_07]: In the chaos, Kyling actually helps the elusive man escape and Grayson survives. [SPEAKER_07]: or what little is left of Grayson, anyway.

1:01:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so the Turians find Grayson, but they don't realize he's actively being manipulated and that he's indoctrinated. [SPEAKER_07]: They just think that he's like some horrific experiment that Cerberus, like this poor man, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_07]: So the Reapers are literally controlling Grayson's mouth at this point and can conning the Turians for him.

1:01:40 [SPEAKER_07]: And there is nothing that Grayson can do. [SPEAKER_07]: There is no autonomy here whatsoever, but again completely aware. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the lies spill from Grayson's mouth very easily and not because it's Grayson doing this, but because the reapers already know how to manipulate the Koreans.

1:02:05 [SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_07]: That's the terrifying part. [SPEAKER_07]: The indoctrinated essence that is taking control of Grayson has the collective knowledge of the Reapers. [SPEAKER_07]: That's scary. [SPEAKER_07]: And that's something new that we find out in this description of how indoctrination works.

1:02:24 [SPEAKER_07]: So basically, the hosts who are being indoctrinated have a wealth of knowledge and to sheer malice. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but I don't think it's it's not as easy for like Grayson to access reaper knowledge as it is for the reapers to access Grayson knowledge. [SPEAKER_07]: It's a one way road, uh, kind of.

1:02:48 [SPEAKER_07]: And here's the other horrifying thing about Paul's indoctrination. [SPEAKER_07]: It comes in waves, it seems. [SPEAKER_07]: So there's moments of this, of total clarity where he can partially or fully control his body, but those waves are increasing in strength and frequency and it's leaving less and less of Paul intact and in control.

1:03:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's, it's so difficult to read through when you feel, you can almost feel the relief and the joy of, [SPEAKER_05]: I moved my own hand and that is making him feel things and like, oh, maybe if I can feel more, I'll be able to take more control and then another wave of Reaper indoctrination comes through and like, nope, I have gained, I am taking direct control.

1:03:38 [SPEAKER_07]: And you start to understand why it is in those final moments in Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 3 that if you can break through the Reapers hold on Seren and the Elusive Man, the final act of defiance that they show is to kill themselves. [SPEAKER_07]: Because it is them reasserting power over the last vestige of power that they might hold, that they are resisting the Reapers and the only way they can do that is to kill themselves.

1:04:07 [SPEAKER_07]: not like the Reaper's carer. [SPEAKER_05]: No. [SPEAKER_05]: The Reaper's don't care if the vessel is damaged. [SPEAKER_05]: They will always find another. [SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_07]: But those Turian soldiers, they do rescue Grayson and they put them on the shuttle and they leave.

1:04:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Only for Grayson's body to be assumed direct control of, gains like superhuman fighting ability and kills them mid-flight and then he redirects the shuttle. [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_05]: Wait. [SPEAKER_05]: The Turing shuttle. [SPEAKER_05]: How does Grayson know how to fly a Turing shuttle?

1:04:42 [SPEAKER_07]: If I remember right, it's actually explained in the book that the reapers are the ones who know how. [SPEAKER_07]: And since they're in control, they just manipulate his body to do the work. [SPEAKER_05]: So Grayson's fingers are going to be pointing the wrong direction for a few minutes.

1:04:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Grayson's going to be doing the spotcans for a while. [SPEAKER_07]: Just out of habit. [SPEAKER_05]: Yep. [SPEAKER_05]: And where is this shuttle taking him to? [SPEAKER_07]: We will get to that next week. [SPEAKER_07]: Next time on Mass Effect Lourk asked, bon, but yeah, that takes us about halfway through Mass Effect Retribution.

1:05:20 [SPEAKER_07]: There's so much character development that happens with Paul's story here that we actually had originally planned to do this all in one episode. [SPEAKER_07]: And we yesterday, I think it was, I messaged eugenesis and I was like, hey, I'm done researching my part and I've already got like 11 pages of notes like maybe we should do this in two episodes.

1:05:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah because that was a lot and it's also really heavy and so I think taking it a little break right here is good and we can come back and talk more grace in in part three. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean three books, three episodes. [SPEAKER_07]: Yes. [SPEAKER_07]: And you know, um, before we went live today, I had actually thought let's just record both of them now, but it is already 830 p.m.

1:06:15 [SPEAKER_07]: And so we, we already have our research done for the next part. [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so I am going to suggest that we'd punch in recording to next week. [SPEAKER_07]: I'll do this live. [SPEAKER_07]: This is the first time Genesis is hearing about it. [SPEAKER_07]: So it's great. [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, that is that is all we have for this week.

1:06:32 [SPEAKER_07]: We will resume Paul's story and it's the exciting conclusion to his story next week. [SPEAKER_07]: And then after that we've got the October patron chat. [SPEAKER_07]: which is thankfully because of the way the day is lined up not going to be on Halloween. [SPEAKER_07]: I was afraid for a second that it could be on Halloween, but it's not going to be on Halloween this year.

1:06:53 [SPEAKER_07]: It will be on the 26th, right? [SPEAKER_07]: 25th or 26th? [SPEAKER_05]: 20 fifth. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: All right. [SPEAKER_07]: So we will be talking with our tier four and it patrons then but we've got another poll episode in the meantime. [SPEAKER_07]: So Specters thank you so much for listening and we'll be back next week in the meantime.

1:07:15 [SPEAKER_07]: Enjoy your autonomy. [SPEAKER_07]: Go, go do something just because you can punch a wall. [SPEAKER_07]: Be a Kyle. [SPEAKER_07]: All right. [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for listening to the Mass Effect War text. [SPEAKER_07]: Reach out to us on Blue Sky, Twitter, Discord, Patreon, or email us at Mass EffectLorecast at gmail.com.

1:07:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Join us next week for more lore, same space, same time, or check out our live streams at twitch.tv-mass Effect4cast.