226: What If Shepard Never Touched The Beacon?

0:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Commander Sheppard, and this is my favorite lorecast on the Citadel. [SPEAKER_09]: Welcome to the Mass Effect lorecast. [SPEAKER_09]: I'm in seven the legend. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Genesis, join us. [SPEAKER_08]: As we explore along tides of light, and through the shoals of dust, to see where this lore began.

0:32 [SPEAKER_05]: And consider where it may go. [SPEAKER_09]: Specters, welcome back to another, uh, new week of the Mass Effect Lurecast where we're going to be starting a new sub series of episodes, but before we get to that, I am your host in seven the legend and joining me as always is my wonderful co-host Genesis.

1:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Genesis, how are you doing? [SPEAKER_05]: doing okay, prepping up for something big happening on Friday. [SPEAKER_05]: So whatever form of well wishes, good vibes, thoughts, prayers you can. [SPEAKER_05]: Please send them to me and my family. [SPEAKER_05]: My daughter's going in for her fourth surgery on Friday, the 12th.

1:29 [SPEAKER_05]: So keep us in your thoughts. [SPEAKER_09]: She will come out and I guarantee her first words will be, does anybody have something [SPEAKER_05]: Five points if any of it was, she, that was some of her first words back was asking for talk about. [SPEAKER_05]: So I am fully in a green so with that, I will love that if she asks me for food when she wakes up.

1:57 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh man, Taco Bell too, a woman of culture. [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, so you're going to be getting my prayers and I'm sure a lot of other people's as well. [SPEAKER_09]: She's such a strong individual and I know that she'll. [SPEAKER_09]: come out of it with even more Hutspa. [SPEAKER_09]: So with that, let's get to our topic today, which is rooted in the lore, but we're kind of taking a fun side step from the lore for a little bit.

2:25 [SPEAKER_09]: Genesis, we've been talking about launching a series of episodes based on what if, what if scenarios. [SPEAKER_09]: and kind of playing around with the idea of what if X, Y, Z was changed in the lore. [SPEAKER_09]: But basically, we've been discussing about, you know, what if we launched a series of episodes about what if X, Y, Z was different?

2:53 [SPEAKER_09]: And so we figured we should start at the very beginning [SPEAKER_09]: in Mass Effect 1 and tweak some things here and there and what we're going to start with this one which was what if Shepherd never touched the beacon. [SPEAKER_05]: And this one's such an interesting one because there's so many different layers and facets of things that it would change.

3:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, of course there's some surface level stuff that you can talk about automatically like, oh, Shippard never touched the beacon. [SPEAKER_05]: It means that they're not going to be the ones that's going to figure out all the subplots and figure out, you know, what all of the storyline means in one.

3:32 [SPEAKER_05]: But how does it affect the one who does touch it? [SPEAKER_05]: How does it affect the rest of the relationships? [SPEAKER_05]: How does that affect the rest of the way that the game is going to play out? [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot that we can dive into here. [SPEAKER_09]: Right, and what if no one touches it?

3:48 [SPEAKER_09]: What if Sharon did, because Sharon canonically did before Shepard even got there? [SPEAKER_09]: But like anyway, these are all things that we're going to dive into in this episode. [SPEAKER_09]: So let's start with the first thing that you brought up about, if Shepherd never touched the beacon, then Shepherd never gets that vision.

4:08 [SPEAKER_09]: And that means that Shepherd never has any understanding or even a feeling of doom, [SPEAKER_09]: this vision that Shepard communicates to the council about, you know, there is something greater at play here. [SPEAKER_09]: So we still have the same details about Seren has gone rogue. [SPEAKER_09]: Seren's working with the GIF.

4:31 [SPEAKER_09]: We know that. [SPEAKER_09]: Shepard can relay that. [SPEAKER_09]: The council trusts Shepard on that. [SPEAKER_09]: Then we can basically [SPEAKER_09]: he's a board what we perceive to be a death dread not and that somehow there is a protein artifact involved. [SPEAKER_09]: And so our understanding of that point is basically Seren is going around tearing up colonies alongside the death and search of protein artifacts.

5:03 [SPEAKER_09]: We don't know Seren's gone rogue. [SPEAKER_09]: You got to send me after him. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think that like right out the gate, the council would be even less crusting of the fact that these are Reaper attacks, that this is a Reaper coming, because what it's just some dude who touched the beacon, it's some chick who's already traumatized on that planet is now raving about the fact that it's a giant ancient alien species coming to attack us.

5:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Even a shepherd, I would feel like, okay, Ashley, maybe, maybe this isn't what you saw. [SPEAKER_05]: I would start to doubt what Ashley saw in the vision because of the trauma she's already had on that plan. [SPEAKER_09]: Right. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: How are we going to perceive it if if we were not given the vision as the player?

5:55 [SPEAKER_09]: Like the player never even sees it. [SPEAKER_09]: But but we're just expected to know that Ashley or Kaden did and all we see is Ashler or Kaden kind of get lifted into the air, right? [SPEAKER_09]: And then like have like a seizure, basically. [SPEAKER_09]: So then we're expected to just kind of trust to them.

6:14 [SPEAKER_09]: But we are still the commander. [SPEAKER_09]: So that puts us in a very weird kind of difficult position where I feel like there is... Because it's a video game, you would probably be inclined to believe them. [SPEAKER_09]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_09]: But if it were real life, then there's always the possibility that they are just having hallucinations and seeing things.

6:41 [SPEAKER_09]: Um, I think that they wouldn't bring it up to the council, because the commander is the only one up for specter candidacy there. [SPEAKER_09]: So all else, the same, Shepard is still becoming a specter, still being evaluated to become a specter. [SPEAKER_09]: I think that this would actually make things go smoother between Shepard and the council.

7:06 [SPEAKER_05]: because the reapers weren't brought up in that initial contact where you're becoming a specter. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I could see that. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: And I feel like maybe that would give maybe like setting off on that foot, especially given the history that Anderson had with the council and becoming a specter and seren.

7:26 [SPEAKER_09]: Setting off on that foot may kind of set a different tone for the interactions that Shepherd has with the council later, and perhaps even make the council more likely to trust Shepherd's word when ultimately they get to vermire. [SPEAKER_09]: And they realize, oh shit, Ashley slash Caden was right, because we also have to think about, like, let's back up for a second, right, but like [SPEAKER_09]: Does Shiaullah even know that Kate and Or Ashley had seen the beacon?

8:04 [SPEAKER_09]: What if you didn't bring him? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh. [SPEAKER_05]: Wow. [SPEAKER_05]: Okay. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, why would she all give us the cipher? [SPEAKER_05]: Why would she even bring it up? [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, yeah, we would question Sarah. [SPEAKER_05]: We would question her about Sarah.

8:18 [SPEAKER_05]: But then what would be the reasoning? [SPEAKER_05]: And I mean, if she ever tried to take on the cipher, then it would have no, it would have no effect. [SPEAKER_05]: Nothing would happen because we didn't get the beacon vision. [SPEAKER_05]: Now, I see easily how they could put that into gameplay would be like, okay, now that we've settled this big fight, the, the, the, the, the, not there.

8:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm, um, ferrous. [SPEAKER_05]: What's the, but what's the name of the creature? [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, the story in thorian. [SPEAKER_05]: There you go. [SPEAKER_05]: Now that the thorian is dead, all the squad mates can come and visit Chiala and so therefore Ashley and Kate and are there to make it for a gameplay way it could work out.

9:03 [SPEAKER_09]: Speaking of Chiala though, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a Chiala that after [SPEAKER_09]: She does the, you know, like the, uh, psychometry with, with Shepherd and does the, you know, embrace the turn to be gives Shepherd the Cypher. [SPEAKER_09]: After that, doesn't she all, let's say I'm, I'm surprised that you are basically alive.

9:27 [SPEAKER_09]: This would have broken a lesser mind. [SPEAKER_05]: Yes. [SPEAKER_09]: So what's to say that, you know, had Caden or Ashley received the vision from the beacon without the same kind of re-protect that Seren had? [SPEAKER_09]: what's to say that that wouldn't have broken them the same way a broke doctor man well just from doctor man well just had the whispers.

9:53 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't even think that doctor man well even touched the beacon. [SPEAKER_09]: That was just from the indoctrination effect of seren or sovereign. [SPEAKER_09]: So, you know, could Kaden or Ashley even function after that? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that is a great question because Ashley love her, but there's nothing truly special, you know?

10:15 [SPEAKER_05]: She's not a biotic. [SPEAKER_05]: She, this is some of her first battlefront experience. [SPEAKER_05]: She's not a hardened warrior. [SPEAKER_05]: who has built up like mental fortitude and things like that, like Shepard has. [SPEAKER_05]: They haven't had a previous major trauma in their life that has allowed them to build allowed her to build these mental barriers.

10:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And we are told through Lyra that Shepard is also naturally gifted in mental shielding. [SPEAKER_05]: don't think that Ashley has that. [SPEAKER_05]: She hasn't had the same life experiences. [SPEAKER_05]: She doesn't have this natural gift at mental shielding, but who knows if she would be able to handle this?

10:59 [SPEAKER_05]: And the fact that she's literally coming off of a near death experience. [SPEAKER_05]: you know, who she was being attacked by the gas shepherd steps in saves her and then within the course of what another hour or so she's receiving this beacon vision that could break her. [SPEAKER_05]: And now Ashley's coming from a much different place.

11:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I could see that Ashley might not be able to handle [SPEAKER_09]: Well, would you think Kaden could? [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think Kaden could. [SPEAKER_09]: I feel like Kaden besides brain camp has evidently lived pretty smooth life. [SPEAKER_09]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_09]: Mine is the headaches.

11:43 [SPEAKER_05]: yes the headaches. [SPEAKER_05]: So along the same lines, I don't know where Caden's mental shields are at and I don't know what it could do to him because he's already got temperamental biotics and something being funneled directly into his brain could easily mess with that. [SPEAKER_05]: It could make his headaches worse.

12:06 [SPEAKER_05]: It could trigger something in his implant that could malfunction. [SPEAKER_05]: It could [SPEAKER_05]: On the other hand though, we do have in-game lore that Kadenun locks more abilities after physically traumatic events, so maybe the beacon could have also opened up something for him. [SPEAKER_09]: oh yeah maybe he could become like a superhero after that who knows so okay so for the sake of argument let's say that you know Ashley or Caden is not broken by this but rather kind of becomes the plot armor that Shepard had.

12:46 [SPEAKER_09]: in the original. [SPEAKER_09]: So how would you feel playing through a game in which Shepherd isn't the special boy? [SPEAKER_09]: Shepherd isn't the special girl, right? [SPEAKER_09]: It's actually Ashley Arcaden and we're just kind of like a dude. [SPEAKER_09]: And I mean, dude, gender neutrally began.

13:04 [SPEAKER_09]: because we're just like a dude who is helping them along. [SPEAKER_09]: So somewhat similar to the hero of Kavach and Martin septum, right? [SPEAKER_09]: Like, Akatash doesn't assume the hero of Kavach's body. [SPEAKER_09]: It's Martin who's truly special. [SPEAKER_05]: right, it would be very interesting to play through the game where we are the main character, but it's not necessarily our story.

13:33 [SPEAKER_05]: And I've played a few different games that are like that where you're following along and it's somebody else's journey that you're helping them through. [SPEAKER_05]: It's along the same lines of Sam and Frodo, who's story is it really, you know? [SPEAKER_05]: And so it would be very interesting to play Mass Effect going through all of that, knowing that it's not really the story.

13:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Dave brings up a good point, which her three is like that too, because you play as Geralt, but it's really a story about Siri. [SPEAKER_05]: And so it would be interesting if we were playing a [SPEAKER_09]: So let's also talk about Lyara. [SPEAKER_09]: Because Lyara, it's because of the beacon that Lyara becomes the writer's pet.

14:22 [SPEAKER_09]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_09]: That's her entire anchor for importance right there. [SPEAKER_09]: The very beginning is that she can help translate the vision and then have that southern bell. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, my stars, moment after that. [SPEAKER_09]: So, I feel like her ability to help shepherd make sense of the vision becomes completely irrelevant and less shhh.

14:47 [SPEAKER_09]: Ashley or Kayden does receive the vision and is able to function after that, and Lyra is also able to convince them to allow them to hurt her to help them. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it also kind of would make the relationship between Lyra and Shepard different because the mind meld kind of is the basis for strengthening the bond between Shepard and Lyra.

15:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Now we're going to watch Lyra strengthen her bond with Caden. [SPEAKER_05]: while Caden's already flirting with her and his made comments about how well I got to her first so why are you flirting with her shepherd? [SPEAKER_05]: No, I'm not still angry about that line, Caden. [SPEAKER_05]: And then also his sisterhood increased with Ashley, where they can start bonding and talking more because they share this mind meld.

15:42 [SPEAKER_05]: And [SPEAKER_05]: It would be very interesting to see their relationships grow and deepen in ways that we currently don't in Mass Effect one. [SPEAKER_09]: Man, and you just got me thinking about the romances, too. [SPEAKER_09]: Like, imagine you're trying to romance either Caden or Ashley, and they're like, sorry, Shepherd.

16:01 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm kind of taken by Lyra. [SPEAKER_05]: Ouch. [SPEAKER_05]: And then you can't romance Lyara either, because she's totally into Ashley or Kaden. [SPEAKER_05]: And now, Shepherds all alone in their room. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, wow. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure Shepherds can find some way to spend the time.

16:23 [SPEAKER_09]: So let's also think about, okay, so past Pharaohs, past in Ovaria, past Thera, where we rescue Lyara. [SPEAKER_09]: if Shepard never had the vision of the beacon. [SPEAKER_09]: And let's assume that Caden or Ashley could not make sense of it. [SPEAKER_09]: No one ever did because they weren't involved in the same sequence of events that Shepard was with getting the vision translation from Lyara and then the Cypher and Lyara's added knowledge from her own protein research.

17:01 [SPEAKER_09]: How would that have changed the story in terms of how hard Shepherd was willing to fight to continue to go after Seren despite being grounded from the council? [SPEAKER_05]: Because Shepard's main motivation for going through with all of it by basically going completely rogue themselves and letting Anderson punch Udina and all that is because of the threat of the reapers and we only truly and honestly believe in this threat because of seeing the death dread not that didn't look like a death dread not at the right at the beginning [SPEAKER_05]: because of her own interpretations of the beacon.

17:47 [SPEAKER_05]: If we had to fully rely and trust on what Ashley or Caden was telling us, would we still have that same level of drive? [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't know. [SPEAKER_05]: I guess it would really just depend on what your relationship was with them. [SPEAKER_09]: You know, given the sound file of the conversation between Binesia and Seren that Tally gives us, and they're very beginning, we would still get that, right?

18:15 [SPEAKER_09]: And so I feel like this would inherently change the game to become somewhat more of a detective thriller, where you're piecing things together along the way, and you still have no idea what the ultimate motivation is until vermire. [SPEAKER_09]: And then I feel like that that reveal of sovereign would be even more shocking, but perhaps so shocking that it would feel like the last season of lost.

18:46 [SPEAKER_09]: And it would feel like a weird kind of supernatural curveball where you're like, okay, that was too weird, that was too cheesy, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, but also talking about vermire brings up another good point. [SPEAKER_05]: If one of them has touched the beacon, is there even a choice on who has to stay behind?

19:11 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, man, what if you sacrifice the whichever one touched the beacon? [SPEAKER_09]: Then where are you going with that? [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, how is your conversation with visual going to go? [SPEAKER_05]: Because the only reason that you talk to visual? [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, like, that's, so I feel like this story might actually just be dead in the water, unless if you leave Caden dead in the water.

19:41 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh god, if you leave Caden dead in the water, if the story might be dead in the water, if, um, if you did not basically give plot armor to whoever touched the vegan. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: So you would have to, and that would take away the vermire choice, right? [SPEAKER_09]: So whoever didn't touch the beacon, let's say that something you did early on in the game influenced which one of them was going to touch the beacon.

20:11 [SPEAKER_09]: And then that predetermined who was going to die in vermire. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, okay, either that or now your choice is between, uh, like tally and garrison or Rex and garrison. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, man, that would be really hard. [SPEAKER_09]: Um, [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, actually, can you imagine how fervent Ashley would become in the confrontation with Rex if Ashley was the one who received the vision from the beacon?

20:47 [SPEAKER_09]: So, and then you just have to kind of decide who's gonna live right there? [SPEAKER_09]: Ashley's not backing down, Rex isn't backing down. [SPEAKER_09]: What if it then becomes shepherd's decision about shooting Ashley or Rex? [SPEAKER_09]: What if that's the choice, right there? [SPEAKER_09]: That would be crazy.

21:08 [SPEAKER_09]: So let's just assume for the sake of argument to progress the story through the game that Caden or Ashley, whichever one received the vision does survive vermire, perhaps the other one does not. [SPEAKER_09]: And then when you get to ILOs, vigil doesn't talk to you. [SPEAKER_05]: right, because visually, well, visually eventually learns how to communicate using English, but is able to tell that these are the good guys because they've received all three steps that beacon the cipher and then going getting to Isle itself.

21:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so, and whoa, what if you didn't bring that squatting with you? [SPEAKER_05]: I normally bring, you know, like, garrisonly are on that one, and so what now, I'm just not going to be able to talk to vigil at all, because my beacon holder's not there with me. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: And, like, I'm still, I'm still thinking too about, like, [SPEAKER_09]: As the player, I'm thinking about playing through this game, right?

22:16 [SPEAKER_09]: And what is the sense of urgency and mass effect one that is driving me forward? [SPEAKER_09]: And I feel like the sense of urgency is that we know with certainty if Sarah and accomplices his goal and reaches the Citadel, [SPEAKER_09]: and basically reverses the tweaks that the protein scientists did to the signal, allowing sovereign to come in and commune with the citadel, if Seren does all that, the galaxy dies.

22:46 [SPEAKER_09]: In this scenario where Shepherd is not the one to receive division, and perhaps no one is, then the story then becomes, why is the specter just so obsessed with protein ruins? [SPEAKER_05]: I wonder if we would change in our minds to protecting the galaxy from the death, because that is what the story originally tells us that these are all, it's a death drug not, it's death creations, seren is leading an army of death.

23:19 [SPEAKER_05]: And so now, I guess our motivation would switch to being we are protecting the galaxy from [SPEAKER_05]: we would get the reveal that the reapers are real and there is, there is a guest god out there that is going to be the one attacking. [SPEAKER_09]: Without shepherd, okay so, so if, if Kaden or Ashley received a vision, do you think that Anderson would be told about it?

23:53 [SPEAKER_09]: and would Anderson feel so adamant about it that Anderson would go to the lengths to coordinate the alliance to be ready to attack sovereign because it's it's it's through Anderson that it basically goes from Shepherd to Anderson Anderson to hack it I imagine with the coordination of alliance resources during the Battle of the Citadel.

24:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that would be a lot of how Shepard believes in the reapers. [SPEAKER_05]: How much do you believe the story that Ashley Caden Lyara, a little bit of tally that everybody is telling you? [SPEAKER_05]: How much do you believe in that story? [SPEAKER_05]: Because if you... [SPEAKER_05]: Hamed Anderson and said, this is what I believe in.

24:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Anderson is going to believe you because it is shepherds saying, this is something I have vetted. [SPEAKER_05]: I am presenting to you. [SPEAKER_05]: Not necessarily because it was my own experiences, but I trust Ashley to be telling me the truth in this moment. [SPEAKER_05]: I trust that Lyara is interpreting it this way.

25:01 [SPEAKER_05]: I trust the cipher that everything that has happened so far. [SPEAKER_05]: If you presented Anderson with the same story, whether it was because it was your experience or somebody else's, I think Anderson would still believe you. [SPEAKER_09]: He probably would, that's just kind of like, [SPEAKER_09]: like he's a good judge of character right um but shepherd in Anderson have uh uh you know father son father daughter kind of relationship that Ashley and Anderson that Caden and Anderson don't have um so I would I would wonder how that would go but yeah like you said I think it would be really critical whether or not shepherd believed.

25:41 [SPEAKER_09]: Kaden or Ashley, um, but with that, we get to go over to the middle of the show, and I have a voice line to quiz you on and we'll see if you get it. [SPEAKER_09]: So, uh, don't go anywhere, we will be right back. [SPEAKER_06]: We have, uh, beef, bacon, we have beer, the foods of my people.

26:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Young men have [SPEAKER_03]: Rex, shepherd, grunt, shepherd, Rex, grunt. [SPEAKER_09]: All right, and here we are in the middle of the show. [SPEAKER_09]: This is where we typically read out your five-star reviews. [SPEAKER_09]: You can leave those on Apple podcasts. [SPEAKER_09]: We also have been taking comments from Spotify and it's been a few weeks since we actually read a Spotify one.

26:32 [SPEAKER_09]: I actually have one here in front of me from Caleb. [SPEAKER_09]: who commented on the lost human colony episode, Caleb says, great episode, as always, I've been thinking about this question for a while, as a fan of the Leviathan DLC, how do you feel about the argument from fans who hate that DLC, and say that it ruins the conversation with sovereign, the mysterious eldritch nature of the reapers, and that by a way should not have tried to explain the unexplainable.

26:59 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't agree with these takes, but I felt I need to ask much love to the show, Caleb. [SPEAKER_09]: And now I'm having like a stroke because I'm wondering if we actually already read that comment. [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe, but I'm not. [SPEAKER_09]: I definitely already read it because I checked the comments on Spotify every now and then, but anyway, in the event that we did not, I think that it's a great DLC, it's my favorite.

27:26 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think that it ruins the elder to nature of the reapers. [SPEAKER_09]: In fact, I think it brings the story closer and grounds the story closer to the science part of science fiction. [SPEAKER_09]: uh... and it leaves less to be fantasy like star wars so i like that i i because i always liked the hard sci-fi aspect of mass fact not the the fantasy fiction ones [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

27:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's because we talked to Peter Jessif about the law of life and everything like that. [SPEAKER_05]: So maybe that's why you felt like we've had this conversation before. [SPEAKER_05]: I like the law of life in DLC. [SPEAKER_05]: I think that there's so much lore and so much added info in it that it is so necessary.

28:10 [SPEAKER_05]: And it doesn't take away from that original sovereign conversation from me at all, [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, wow. [SPEAKER_05]: The alien had a beginning. [SPEAKER_05]: It just gives me more drive because knowing that that fucker had a beginning means I know he's got an ending and I'm coming for you.

28:32 [SPEAKER_09]: No, right. [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_09]: Hell yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: We also have a comment from bad blood who says cannot wait for the new game in TV series and then I can keep ironing to the wonderful sound of you guys picking apart every new detail ironing my uniform just so we're clear at this time.

28:50 [SPEAKER_09]: Keep up the good work. [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you, Bad Blood. [SPEAKER_09]: And we also have a voice line for you, Genesis. [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see if you can get this one. [SPEAKER_09]: I have delved deep into the bowels of Mass Effect 2 to pull this line and you would know right away that it's Mass Effect 2 that's not like a spoiler at all.

29:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So let's go ahead and play it a couple times. [SPEAKER_03]: All right, I'll play a one more time. [SPEAKER_03]: And I have other means to oppose this. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, oh, is that a grunt's daddy, uh, Dr. O'Keefe, O'Keefe, it is, it is not war lord O'Keefe. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, damn. [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it's close, you're close, you're on the right trail.

29:43 [SPEAKER_09]: You want to take another stab? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, man, I don't feel like that is Rex. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, obviously a Crogan, you said it's massive, too. [SPEAKER_05]: So it's somebody on to Chunker. [SPEAKER_05]: Is it the, and I'll close my eye because I know that Chats already telling me the answer and I don't wanna see it.

30:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Is it, oh, the little nitwit who's arguing with Rex? [SPEAKER_09]: Ovenc. [SPEAKER_05]: Right. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: Yes. [SPEAKER_09]: It is it is it is ovenc and this is during the conversation where you want to you want to take a guess. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, well, it's when they are talking about how Rex is trying to change all of the political landscape and wants to bring the clans together and all that.

30:36 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, there's very close, but no cigar. [SPEAKER_09]: It was actually when you're talking with the shaman about grunts' right of passage. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, okay. [SPEAKER_09]: Yep. [SPEAKER_09]: So I think that was a vank, right? [SPEAKER_09]: I think that they're not too separate crogan.

30:52 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm pretty sure that was a vank or was it a separate crogan who like never comes back? [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think he's the one that you get to head but and I'm pretty sure that that's a wing. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, yeah, he is the one that you head but all right. [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that was fun.

31:07 [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, chat was all over that one. [SPEAKER_09]: Chat was all over that. [SPEAKER_09]: So props to chat and props to you, listener who may be listening to this at any point in the future. [SPEAKER_09]: If you were screaming at your [SPEAKER_09]: and are tier 5 patrons who get a shout out every week, including Buds Buds Buds, unfortunate benefactor, William, Superfly 440, Reddrobot, Lt. Tussino, KiraC, and Edboy.

31:38 [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you all so much for your continued support of the show. [SPEAKER_09]: And with that, let's get back to the second half of the show. [SPEAKER_01]: After time, a drift among open stars, along ties of light and through shows of dust, I will return to where I began. [SPEAKER_07]: Celery and reproduction different, very little sex drive.

31:57 [SPEAKER_07]: If intended to try human, would try you. [SPEAKER_07]: Ow, my bakeries. [SPEAKER_09]: So here we are in the second half of the show, and you know, Genesis, while we were in that midbrake, the thought occurred to me that perhaps shepherd wouldn't be such a large target. [SPEAKER_09]: for Seren, for sovereign, for anybody without the knowledge that the vision from the beacon gave them.

32:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Now your mission is more of protecting actually your caten and keeping them safe in order to hold the knowledge rather than your squad supporting you through all of your fights and battles. [SPEAKER_05]: You're really there as a protector role and that could kind of change Shepherd's personality.

32:50 [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, you're like basically becoming Joel from the last of us. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's my job to protect you. [SPEAKER_09]: It's Pedro Pascal, it's Shepherd. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that would be quite the difference in dynamic for Shepherd and Caden or Shepherd and Ashley. [SPEAKER_09]: And I also feel like you might get some threatening comments from Seren directed toward Caden or Ashley, whoever has the beacon because sovereign would be in Seren's ear.

33:25 [SPEAKER_09]: Do you think sovereign would start to try and target Cadenor Ashley for indoctrination? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, you would. [SPEAKER_05]: And it would make it very interesting because, you know, we feel the direct threat from sovereign but if we're not the beacon holder, the threats aren't directly at us anymore.

33:52 [SPEAKER_05]: It's towards Azure Caden and then depending on like, oh, that's my boyfriend, that's my girlfriend. [SPEAKER_05]: It brings in a whole different layer. [SPEAKER_05]: of, you know, of protection and wanting to be the one that make sure that this person stays alive. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I didn't think about that.

34:12 [SPEAKER_09]: So let's, uh, that, okay, so a couple of different things can happen then. [SPEAKER_09]: On Vermeyer, Shepard, Kaden, and Ashley are all there in very close proximity to [SPEAKER_09]: It's already been established at multiple points throughout the trilogy that something about Shepherds' mental fortitude protects them from indoctrination.

34:40 [SPEAKER_09]: That Kaden and Ashley just don't have, so, or presumably don't have. [SPEAKER_09]: Um, because you could also argue because they've been with Shepherd on the Normandy and so many different situations. [SPEAKER_09]: The whole crew must have some kind of profound mental fortitude, but the remarks are made specifically about Shepherd's mental state.

35:05 [SPEAKER_09]: If Ashley or Caden doesn't have the same mental fortitude, what is the possibility then with their knowledge of the vision and the beacon that Sarah and her sovereign successfully indoctrinated. [SPEAKER_05]: And we wouldn't really know that because there are personality changes, the things that we see the indoctrinated people going through, we could easily chalk that up to, oh, it's a side effect or touching the beacon, it's a side effect of gaining the cipher, it's a side effect of all these things going on, more and more encounters with the reapers is making it so that way they are, [SPEAKER_05]: just engrossed more into it.

35:47 [SPEAKER_05]: They're not indoctrinated. [SPEAKER_05]: No, they, they, nobody else on the ship is indoctrinated. [SPEAKER_05]: Why would it be happening to them? [SPEAKER_05]: I could very easily see a different indoctrination theory happening if it was somebody else touched the beacon. [SPEAKER_09]: They could start sabotaging the Normandy and no one would know, right?

36:08 [SPEAKER_09]: Like what if they opened the airlock and just joker is gone? [SPEAKER_09]: Like, they could essentially bring the collectors ambush from the beginning of Mass Effect 2 into Mass Effect 1. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and we know that Lyra is so key in this instead of eating joker, my first target would be getting rid of Lyra, the protein expert, the only one who might be able to put up some form of logical defense against this, Lyra would be my priority target.

36:47 [SPEAKER_09]: Oh man, do you think Kaden or Ashley could actually take her out in a fight? [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_09]: For Mass Effect 3, we are definitely not, but for Mass Effect 1, we are a Caden probably could. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I agree with you on that one. [SPEAKER_05]: And you know what?

37:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Nobody can throw a biotic shield while they're sleeping. [SPEAKER_09]: Evil Caden. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh man, can you imagine all of the Caden? [SPEAKER_05]: That was actually in my mind. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I was imagining Evil Caden. [SPEAKER_09]: somewhat something similar, like there's a kind of a similar dynamic in my mind that I'm imagining a Assassin's Creed Odyssey, where, whoever whichever the twins you didn't pick became, oh man, what was the, uh, name they gave the evil one, I forget, but yeah.

37:36 [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't play Odyssey. [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, that evil caden. [SPEAKER_09]: in my mind is actually a lot easier to fly under the radar because he's so on the surface calm and level headed. [SPEAKER_05]: On the surface, he looks calm and ready. [SPEAKER_09]: What if the last thing he said before killing Lyra was, can you feel that Lyra?

38:02 [SPEAKER_09]: The quickening. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, but see, and I think that, I think that, yeah, I could very easily see evil either of them. [SPEAKER_05]: because Hayden has so much trauma in his past that he could easily tap that it somebody and the indoctrination could easily tap into about how, you know, the aliens are wrong.

38:28 [SPEAKER_05]: It was a terrain in your past to tortured you and your friends and destroyed your life for a while. [SPEAKER_05]: And then with Ashley, it could very easily be, you know, your family fought and wars against these people. [SPEAKER_05]: and now you're cohabitating with them on a ship, very easily the indoctrination could bring out these character flaws even further and it would just seem like personality progression, not necessarily indoctrination.

39:02 [SPEAKER_09]: There's also a few moments in Mass Effect One where they lean heavily on the Normandy stealth systems where if indoctrinated Kaden or Ashley got a hold of the controls at the front, they could have screwed up the whole plan. [SPEAKER_09]: Deactivated the stealth systems on the approach to Pharaoh's, all of a sudden, the death no they're there, and the Normandy gets torn apart.

39:29 [SPEAKER_05]: or stopped tally on her many loyalty mission where you're gathering all this intel on the death to send back to the fleet and then now these people of access to so much information. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, in Mass Effect 2, I don't know, I don't know how it would change the dynamic of whether actually your cadence would become a part of the Normandy crew into saying that they survived the end of the game, but you know, no human head stepped foot on too chunko before and so now we've now we're giving [SPEAKER_05]: an indoctrinated person access to Chanka, we're giving them access to the quarry and fleet, we're doing all these things, and we wouldn't know.

40:20 [SPEAKER_09]: So let's assume for the sake of argument that somehow Shepard and the crew survive Mass Effect One, they stop Seren. [SPEAKER_09]: They are all pretty surprised, minus Caden or actually whoever received the beacon, they're all pretty surprised on Vermeyer about that revelation with sovereign.

40:42 [SPEAKER_09]: But Shepard is not sold because it could have been some cheap smoke and mirror, right? [SPEAKER_09]: because Shepard again never experienced the vision never experienced that, but they survive Mass Effect 1, they stop Seren and Sovereign, they know that something's wrong, they still don't really trust Caden slash Ashley or maybe indoctrinated Caden slash Ashley never made it.

41:13 [SPEAKER_09]: Mass Effect 2 rolls around. [SPEAKER_09]: And there's either no surviving knowledge of the beacon, or the surviving knowledge of the beacon is not with Shepherd, do the collector still ambush the Normandy? [SPEAKER_05]: That is a great question. [SPEAKER_05]: I think that they would, well, that's only if the beacon holder was still on the Normandy.

41:45 [SPEAKER_05]: That's the only reason that I would think that they would do that because, well, yes, Schupper does a threat because they are a badass and obviously fought in the Citadel War. [SPEAKER_09]: But, but the characters wouldn't risk exposing themselves just going after any random war hero. [SPEAKER_05]: True.

42:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I think the beacon holder would have to still be on the ship. [SPEAKER_09]: right and would they remain under shipments command of shepherd did not trust them fully about the beacon. [SPEAKER_09]: Or perhaps they might leave and join up with a little organization dedicated to chasing the alien threat.

42:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, thinking about an evil vermire survivor, joining servers, changes so much all. [SPEAKER_05]: and would that, in turn, make Shepherd more receptive to Cerberus, because if you were romancing actually, and all of a sudden, she's there, saying, Cerberus has been great since you've been gone.

42:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Join, you know, I'm joined back with us. [SPEAKER_05]: Joker's here. [SPEAKER_05]: Your ship is here. [SPEAKER_05]: There's no way you're saying no. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I don't know. [SPEAKER_09]: I would still be very skeptical about, you know, everything that had happened, and I just still have to trust her about this vision or the beacon.

43:17 [SPEAKER_09]: And this is also assuming that she's indoctrinated, what if she's not? [SPEAKER_09]: Like, what if somehow the plot armor transferred to whoever received the beacon, they never gotten indoctrinated, but they got sick and tired of the alliance slow dragging their feet on the reaper threat?

43:35 [SPEAKER_09]: that without Shepard pushing that envelope, the alliance never took it seriously, Shepard became the specter, not them. [SPEAKER_09]: So they didn't have the leeway to pursue the leads of the Reaper threat that Shepard did. [SPEAKER_09]: They would get sick of it and perhaps quit and join up with an organization more sympathetic.

43:57 [SPEAKER_09]: An organization where the head of that organization was well aware of the Reaper threat [SPEAKER_09]: So I can imagine the elusive man working day and night to recruit K. Nor Ashley, and they received that vision. [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_05]: I could see it working either way, either there indoctrinated, and so therefore we'll fall in line with the elusive man because indoctrination is telling them to, or because they need the support in order to chase down the reapers, and the elusive man is giving it.

44:35 [SPEAKER_09]: That would be, oh man, can you imagine the mind fuck of like your shepherd, you had no idea that this happened to Kaden or Ashley, you were never dead for two years, but for whatever reason, maybe they time jump, you know what I mean, time jump a year, time jump two years, while you're chasing down room at Geth.

44:54 [SPEAKER_09]: And then all of a sudden you find that [SPEAKER_09]: Ashley slash cadence left the lines and that not just to go seek some like respite, but they joined up with Cerberus, and now they are one of the leading antagonists, because without their revival, I would argue without the collectors attacking the Normandy, without the necessity of Cerberus reviving Shepard, Shepard is not going to trust Cerberus.

45:22 [SPEAKER_09]: There's no olive branch. [SPEAKER_09]: There's no good will there. [SPEAKER_09]: All shepherd has witnessed about service was everything that you saw on Mass Effect One, which was all heinous. [SPEAKER_05]: It would take a lot more, and maybe the carrot is actually your catan going, hey, join Cerberus, we can pull resources.

45:46 [SPEAKER_05]: They actually want to continue this fight against the reapers while the council is telling you that it's a non-existent threat. [SPEAKER_05]: And now the basis of two is kind of seeing if we believe [SPEAKER_05]: what the elusive man is telling us that the reapers truly are coming. [SPEAKER_09]: On a positive side, what if Shepherd was able to leverage this into, okay, I don't trust service.

46:12 [SPEAKER_09]: I don't trust the elusive man. [SPEAKER_09]: However, I have looked into the collectors of Ashley R., I'd to look into the collectors that turns out they are abducting human colonies. [SPEAKER_09]: uh... we really do need to investigate this and shepherd pushes that up the chain of command in the alliance maybe gets nowhere with the council but the alliance is willing to give shepherds and resources to go and pursue it is the alliance would be more sympathetic to human colonies being attacked rather than the council is a whole yeah and shepherd could very well take the spot of the vermire survivor on horizon [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.

46:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that makes it so, oh, that scene is so juicy and hurtful. [SPEAKER_05]: It would be very interesting to see it being played out on the other side of it where, you know, Kadenar Ashley fly down trying to help an assist rescue in the colony and now your face to face with them again knowing that they are on the server side.

47:17 [SPEAKER_09]: Do you think Shepherd is going to be receptive to this idea that Reapers are still a threat when all they've seen is this vision that led the Vermeyer survivor down a dark path and ultimately to join Cerberus? [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, the fact that we see the sovereign manifestation on Vermeyer, and then we see the physical frickin' reaper going up at the Citadel.

47:43 [SPEAKER_05]: And we also see it when we first touch down. [SPEAKER_05]: on the on the very first planet. [SPEAKER_05]: And so it's like, I think that Shepherd would be more receptive to the fact that the Reaper attack is a real thing. [SPEAKER_05]: It could also just be like, oh, well, the Reaper was one Reaper and we killed it.

48:03 [SPEAKER_05]: It's fine. [SPEAKER_05]: It's done. [SPEAKER_05]: It's over. [SPEAKER_09]: Right, they're again because Lyra possibly didn't translate the vision and relay what she knew about Prothian, the Prothian disappearance to the crew of the Normandy because that's a possibility that never happened, then there's no understanding of the greater doom at play.

48:27 [SPEAKER_09]: that there might not be any lingering, you know, sort of damage lays over the head of the galaxy, but still a problem that the collectors are waging a war on the humanity. [SPEAKER_09]: I feel like this would still set the stage for tension between humanity between the alliance and the council.

48:49 [SPEAKER_09]: The council not willing to divert any resources to going and protecting human colonies, [SPEAKER_09]: and yet Shepherd is going and seeing humans abducted left and right possibly even running into James on fell prime. [SPEAKER_05]: That would be nice. [SPEAKER_05]: Bringing, I mean, I would love that just from the story line aspect of it, let me see him before we get introduced to a new character in three.

49:13 [SPEAKER_05]: And because yeah, that would change things for Vegas storyline as well. [SPEAKER_05]: you know, Shepard is not necessarily doing all the things, you know, it's like, and so Vegas storyline would be would be different as well. [SPEAKER_05]: And then Lyara wouldn't have cheated on us with a fairing, you know, not having to go and rescue Shepard's body, which would Lyara be the shadow broker.

49:39 [SPEAKER_09]: Hmm, well, first of all, I don't think it's confirmed that Lyra slept with fair and I agree that it definitely seems like it, but I don't think it's confirmed, but second of all, yeah, I don't know. [SPEAKER_09]: Would Lyra have become the shadowbroker because she wouldn't have had that entire detour about getting Shepard's body and then all of that.

50:02 [SPEAKER_09]: So all of the events of what is that Mass Effect Redemption? [SPEAKER_09]: Is that, yeah, that's redemption. [SPEAKER_09]: So, yeah, all of that wouldn't have happened. [SPEAKER_09]: So, I don't know if Lyra would have become the shadow broker, meaning, yeah, well, and also the intel that leads shepherd in the crew of the Normandy SR2 in Mass Effect 2.

50:25 [SPEAKER_09]: That intel that leads them to the, the quote unquote, desolate reber husk. [SPEAKER_09]: to get the IFF through the Omega 4 relay. [SPEAKER_09]: All of that Intel is coming through the elusive man. [SPEAKER_09]: How would we get that intel if we were not with Cerberus? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we wouldn't.

50:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Either that, or we would be assigned to hunting down, actually, or Caden, because they're out there doing all this crazy shit with servers. [SPEAKER_05]: And so now we've got to go and try and stop them. [SPEAKER_09]: Make it a cat and mouse game. [SPEAKER_09]: That would be really interesting.

51:05 [SPEAKER_09]: Another, like, catch me if you can kind of game where your [SPEAKER_09]: you are under the pretense or the the thought process of I need to stop this other rogue agent, but it turns out they're not actually rogue. [SPEAKER_09]: They're just working with Cerberus. [SPEAKER_09]: So that would be really interesting suicide mission, like, [SPEAKER_09]: is a suicide mission happening, but Shepard's not part of it.

51:30 [SPEAKER_09]: Does Shepard ever get to meet Morton? [SPEAKER_09]: Does Shepard ever get to meet Grunt? [SPEAKER_09]: Does Shepard ever get to meet Legion? [SPEAKER_09]: Or, you know, Zaheed? [SPEAKER_09]: Or Kasumi? [SPEAKER_09]: Or any of this, because they don't have the same freedom of movement and operations that came with joining servers.

51:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, all those squadmates save, tally, and garrison wrecks. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, those are the ones that we know from Mass Effect 1. [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody else would have been recruited by the Vermeyer survivor from the elusive man because it was to be boy that gave us all of these people.

52:16 [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't go out and just randomly find them. [SPEAKER_05]: So I think our squad would be different. [SPEAKER_09]: And there's a lot of problems that arise with the squad of the SR2 that is really only solved by Shepherd's leadership and charismatic abilities. [SPEAKER_09]: You know, Jack and Miranda, not just Jack and Miranda, but Legion and Talley, right?

52:40 [SPEAKER_09]: Is Talley even there? [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_09]: There could be other problems. [SPEAKER_09]: So I think that the most likely scenario in that case is the Vermeir survivor goes through the Omega 4 relay with their Cerberus crew and never comes back. [SPEAKER_09]: and perhaps they successfully destroy the collector base, but they just never come back.

53:06 [SPEAKER_05]: I would agree because you have to build up the loyalty of everybody in order to survive that to get all of the ship upgrades and everything that's required to safely maneuver it. [SPEAKER_05]: And you still, and you have to have Joker as your pilot. [SPEAKER_05]: Like Joker is one of the only few pilots capable of making that jump because of how good he is on the Normandy.

53:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's another question, would Joker be with Shepard or be with the Vermeer survivor? [SPEAKER_09]: No, Joker would stay with Shepard 100%. [SPEAKER_09]: I can't imagine that Joker would leave. [SPEAKER_09]: So, as much as Joker likes to joke about his cushy chair in the SR2, that's not why he joins, so I think that that leaves us kind of blind-sided, come Mass Effect 3.

54:01 [SPEAKER_09]: It's been like three years since the Battle of the Citadel, and Shepherd hasn't really seen any definitive evidence of the Reapers. [SPEAKER_09]: Shepherd was never there to notice that the collector's are genetically modified proteins. [SPEAKER_09]: Shepard was never there to see a lot of the different connections that the elusive man makes drawing the collectors to the reapers.

54:25 [SPEAKER_05]: So would the battarians still be alive? [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, that's a great question. [SPEAKER_09]: No, they wouldn't because even if you don't do that DLC, even if you don't do that DLC hack it since his own team to do it. [SPEAKER_09]: So that's my argument there. [SPEAKER_05]: would shepherd be shepherd wouldn't have gotten arrested then.

54:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Shepherd wouldn't be on earth during the attack. [SPEAKER_09]: Shepherd would not be on earth during the attack. [SPEAKER_09]: Shepherd would not have been spending time in prison getting softer on the edges. [SPEAKER_09]: Wow, yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: So then do you think Anderson would have survived the attack?

55:04 [SPEAKER_09]: Well, Anderson wouldn't have been there, because Anderson was only there for the tribunal kind of the court martial hearing. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I think Anderson would still be either the ambassador or the assistant to the ambassador. [SPEAKER_09]: Well, maybe not. [SPEAKER_09]: Because Anderson could have very well still taken part in the events of Mass Effect Assension and Retribution.

55:31 [SPEAKER_09]: So all of that could have been happening in the background, perhaps Anderson would have even requested Shepherd's help considering that Shepherd never left the Alliance. [SPEAKER_05]: Yep. [SPEAKER_09]: and Shepard would have been tracking down that rogue vermire survivor with servers. [SPEAKER_09]: Wow, so a lot of things would have been different.

55:49 [SPEAKER_09]: Come, Mass Effect 3. [SPEAKER_09]: And there would have been no, I told you so from Shepard to the council in Mass Effect 3. [SPEAKER_05]: Right, we are shocked right alongside them. [SPEAKER_09]: Like maximum surprise. [SPEAKER_09]: And also, and here's the really terrifying part. [SPEAKER_09]: I'm thinking about Mars right after the leaving Earth mission has Lyara done any groundwork for the crucible.

56:19 [SPEAKER_09]: Has she even began researching anything on the Mars archives? [SPEAKER_09]: You know, because she would not have become the shadow broker, I think, because Shepard's body, that whole thing never led her to that. [SPEAKER_09]: So she would have never, I think, discovered the blueprints in the Mars archives.

56:39 [SPEAKER_09]: I think maybe there's a little bit of an argument I think you can make to say that she would have out of academic curiosity considering that was still her specialty, researching [SPEAKER_05]: The only thing that I could present would be, if we are basing the fact that Shepard and Lyra's relationship is so strong based on the multiple mind melds, she would have that same level of bond with either Ashley or Katelyn.

57:13 [SPEAKER_05]: If Ashley or Caden were the reason that the collectors attacked, then maybe Lyara had gone on a mission to save Ashley's body, to save Caden's body, and so therefore a lot of the effect the things could still have happened. [SPEAKER_05]: But as it stands in our little scenario, yeah, in our little scenario here, I don't think that Lyara would have [SPEAKER_05]: furthered her research, her research was on proteins, not the reapers.

57:48 [SPEAKER_05]: And yes, she could have gone to the Mars archives if she had found out some way that this is somewhere where she could get her hands on more protein data. [SPEAKER_09]: But that's a very slight chance. [SPEAKER_09]: that because, okay, so you think about no Mars archives, no crucible, that's it.

58:18 [SPEAKER_09]: Like, right, the galaxy doesn't survive the reaper invasion. [SPEAKER_09]: The only way I think that galaxy could possibly survive, or just, I'm not gonna say the only way. [SPEAKER_09]: There's other possible scenarios, but once in a while I'm thinking about the way that the galaxy could survive without shepherd having the vision, [SPEAKER_09]: uh, having the vision either, uh, then being alive past Mass Effect 2 or perhaps they were indoctrinated and never made a Mass Effect 1 or perhaps they just aren't there for whatever reason.

58:53 [SPEAKER_09]: So the only scenario I can think of right now in which, um, the galaxy is still saved in that cycle is if Lyra becomes this shepherd. [SPEAKER_09]: like Lyra would have to, perhaps stumble upon mission reports of conversations with visual. [SPEAKER_09]: and to glean some kind of data from VisualsVI.

59:19 [SPEAKER_09]: She would already have the knowledge of the previous cycles. [SPEAKER_09]: She would already be able to connect, oh, wait. [SPEAKER_09]: The legend of the reapers might be real, considering sovereign and what she's already researched, come Mass Effect One about the Prothians. [SPEAKER_09]: She might...

59:40 [SPEAKER_09]: She might find the plans on Mars coincidentally that way and then take it perhaps and get this, this she could perhaps take it to the elusive man first instead of the alliance. [SPEAKER_09]: instead of shepherd, depending purely on what her relationship was like with the Vermeyer survivor, or whoever received the vision of the beacon.

1:00:11 [SPEAKER_05]: I agree. [SPEAKER_05]: And in this scenario, we're also kind of forgetting about the fact that Lyra has all the same information that the beacon toucher does. [SPEAKER_05]: And Lyra has received all of that. [SPEAKER_05]: So she would also have that same level of the Reapers are real, the Reapers are coming, that the beacon toucher had.

1:00:34 [SPEAKER_05]: So she would [SPEAKER_05]: I think go out and try to find more information on them. [SPEAKER_05]: So I think she would have gotten to the Mars Archives and figured it out. [SPEAKER_09]: Right. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_09]: Perhaps that would lead her to leave the crew of the Normandy after Mass Effect one and kind of go do her own thing.

1:00:50 [SPEAKER_09]: And I can imagine if she dug deep enough in that regard eventually she would come across a shadow broker agent. [SPEAKER_09]: or the Shadowbroker, the Shadowbroker thugs in summer guard. [SPEAKER_09]: So yeah, I think maybe this would make, okay, if you're one of those people like me, who's kind of sick of how much Plot Armor Lyara has and how much of a writer's pet she is, I feel like having Shepherd never touch the beacon would only reinforce or exacerbate her importance to stopping the reapers.

1:01:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because she's one of the primary forces doing the work. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, in this case, Shepherd's not dead, but she's still out there continuing on the work, even if they're not around to help her. [SPEAKER_09]: And that's even assuming that she gets the vision from the Vermeyer survivor.

1:01:43 [SPEAKER_09]: Like if it's Ashley, Ashley doesn't trust aliens. [SPEAKER_09]: So, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_09]: So, okay, so without that little transfer right there, [SPEAKER_09]: Or let's assume that maybe the person who gets the beacon does doesn't survive, doesn't survive getting the vision from the beacon.

1:02:05 [SPEAKER_09]: So without that, Shepherd doesn't understand the threat. [SPEAKER_09]: Never communicates it to the council, so the council can never take it seriously, even behind the scenes. [SPEAKER_09]: And that means Lyara, like it also means Lyara never understood the vision, so she never decoded protein history the way that she did.

1:02:24 [SPEAKER_09]: The conduit was never found possibly. [SPEAKER_09]: Even if it was, the crucible is never completed, very likely never completed. [SPEAKER_09]: And I just see like multiple scenarios in which the reapers either win in Mass Effect 1 or win in Mass Effect 3. [SPEAKER_09]: And so I feel like the beacon is the ultimate kind of beginning to a domino effect in the series.

1:02:53 [SPEAKER_05]: If Shepard never touches the beacon, the reapers win the cycle. [SPEAKER_09]: Wrong. [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I feel like it has to be sh- had to be shepard. [SPEAKER_09]: Someone else might have gotten it wrong. [SPEAKER_05]: No. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, well. [SPEAKER_09]: And with that, we're about an hour right now.

1:03:15 [SPEAKER_09]: I feel like we could probably go on talking about this with like a corkboard conspiracy thing with like red yarn behind us for hours. [SPEAKER_05]: oh yeah for sure because we didn't talk about like how the squad mates would be interacting with each other and who would be on what side and you know are we team vermire or we team shepherd and who would we meet up with would there be more than the dirty dozen in mass effect too and then you know there's so much more we can get into it and java we didn't even bring up java [SPEAKER_05]: Oh gosh, Javik is a whole different story.

1:03:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Would we even find him? [SPEAKER_05]: Why would we go looking for him? [SPEAKER_09]: We are a we find him first. [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_09]: So yeah, well, I mean, yeah, there's so many different angles you could take with this one that we just don't have time to get into, but I hope that this kind of like ignited some kind of thought processes and conversation among some of the people listening.

1:04:17 [SPEAKER_05]: I really like this what if series we'll have to do some more of these coming up in 2026 yeah absolutely around the corner. [SPEAKER_09]: Oh my gosh yeah just a few weeks away so with that in that being said we will be covering more of these what if scenarios I think probably the best way to do this would be to like [SPEAKER_09]: separate our lore episodes and character episodes with a what if one every now and then because if we just do what if after what if it gets kind of stale so I think maybe we'll do one once a month not going to commit to that we'll just do one whenever we kind of think of an idea that's worth covering I think but yeah I very much enjoyed this.

1:05:02 [SPEAKER_05]: I have to, and if you have a what if that you would like us to cover, leave it in the comments of this episode on Spotify or hit us up on the Discord, and just be like, it will start a running document of the what if suggestions from the listeners, because you might come up with crazy ideas that I would never think of.

1:05:23 [SPEAKER_09]: Hmm, yeah, and look, Redrabot and Chat just sent one. [SPEAKER_09]: So we'll have to start that document right now. [SPEAKER_09]: Redrabot says, what if Shepard did not encounter the Rack Night Queen and Mass Effect one? [SPEAKER_09]: Oh man, all right, we could have some fun with that one.

1:05:37 [SPEAKER_09]: But that's all we got for this week, Specters, Genesis, you got anything you'd like to share? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I have my two other shows, the two girls one ship, which is currently on hiatus for the month of December. [SPEAKER_05]: All of our old catalog is still up on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, but we are not producing anything new until the Patreon chat at the end of the year, but we are coming back strong in January of 26.

1:06:05 [SPEAKER_05]: You can also catch me on the cyberpunk lore cast where we explore the foundations of the past. [SPEAKER_05]: the state or night city today and the news of the future for all things cyberpunk. [SPEAKER_09]: Nice, yes, go check those out. [SPEAKER_09]: And also look up, oh yeah, I guess there's some news about a cyberpunk trading card game that I I'm super into magic the othering.

1:06:26 [SPEAKER_09]: I'm definitely going to check that out and I'll love to listen to whatever the cyberpunk lorecast has to say about it. [SPEAKER_09]: I am streaming when I can definitely interested in streaming some more single player games I've been streaming some Baldur Skate streaming Sharon Shepard that we do on Thursdays, on that that one's on the Mass Effect Lorecast which, and I've been streaming some other games like More Wind, I've been super into More Wind and Oblivion lately, and yeah.

1:06:59 [SPEAKER_09]: So if you want to catch any of my personal streams, go over, follow me on Twitch at in 7 the legend. [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to blue sky account as well and you can also catch us again every Thursday for Sharon Shepard's right now that is on the Mass Effect Lorecast Twitch. [SPEAKER_09]: So until next time Spectre's, we should go.

1:07:20 [SPEAKER_09]: Take care. [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks for listening to the Mass Effect War text. [SPEAKER_09]: Reach out to us on Blue Sky. [SPEAKER_09]: Twitter, Discord, Patreon, or email us at Mass Effect Warcast at gmail.com. [SPEAKER_05]: Join us next week for more lore. [SPEAKER_05]: Same space, same time.

1:07:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Or check out our live streams at twitch.tv slash Mass Effect Warcast.