252: What if the Quarians NEVER Made the Geth?

0:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Commander Shepherd, and this is my favorite lorecast on the Citadel. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Mass Effect Lorecast. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in seven the legend and I'm Genesis. [SPEAKER_02]: Join us as we explore along tides of light and through shows of dust to see where this lore began and consider where it may go.

0:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Specters welcome back to another speculative episode of the Mass Effect Lorcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host in seven the legend and joining me as always is my wonderful co-host, Genesis. [SPEAKER_02]: Genesis, you're wonderful again. [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm wonderful, wonderful, lovely, amazing, awesome.

1:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You've used some good adjectives. [SPEAKER_02]: Did you write down a list of the adjectives that I've looked over to the side like you were reading? [SPEAKER_01]: No, that was memory recollection. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I thought for a second, you were keeping a list. [SPEAKER_02]: You could put it on your resume.

1:30 [SPEAKER_02]: We are back and sorry for the delay. [SPEAKER_02]: I know that some people were dying for another episode of the Mass Effect lorecast, all five of you. [SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanted to make sure that you knew that we were still hard at work, but [SPEAKER_02]: I started my new job and the schedule is pretty early.

1:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm waking up at 145 in the morning to go to work. [SPEAKER_02]: So I needed a little bit of an adjustment period as I was getting started there, but I think we're going to be fine from here on out. [SPEAKER_02]: That being said, we have a brand new what if episode to bring you. [SPEAKER_02]: And Genesis, you came up with the topic for this week.

2:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I did. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it would be really interesting to kind of delve down the alleyway of the guess, because they are a huge part of Mass Effect and thinking about how integral they are into each and every step of the way for Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3. [SPEAKER_01]: So what would happen if the [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's so many different implications here.

2:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to try and just scratch the surface with some of the largest ones when we discuss this today. [SPEAKER_02]: And when you first brought this up, my immediate thought was, well, if there's no GIF, then obviously there's no morning war. [SPEAKER_02]: So without the morning war, I mean, there's a lot of places that we can talk about how the entire galaxy would be different, right?

3:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, from a deep lower perspective, my immediate thought was there would be no Citadel anti-AIL laws. [SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, okay, that's not where I went immediately, but we can travel down that because for me, it was like how would the Koreans be a part of society because they're not being shunned for creating this AI?

3:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about that first. [SPEAKER_02]: They were never shun for creating the AI. [SPEAKER_02]: They never got exiled from their own planet. [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, day here brings up in chat, Korean embassy. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's probably a safe bet because they were the galaxy's foremost experts on software and cybernetics and, you know, artificial intelligence anyway.

4:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So if they had never created a truly [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more than fair to say that they would have a considerable amount of political power on the Citadel. [SPEAKER_01]: they would still have their home planet. [SPEAKER_01]: There would be no migrant fleet. [SPEAKER_01]: The Koreans would be a very different race.

4:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And very, I also, we might not have Koreans in suits because of that. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so the biology would be different, too. [SPEAKER_02]: Now let's talk a little bit more about that political power and how that could shape different dynamics. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that without the nullifying aspect of, you know, their social standing from creating the GIF, you know, that was, when did that happen, what was the year for the morning war again?

4:54 [SPEAKER_02]: It was in the 1850s. [SPEAKER_02]: of the current era. [SPEAKER_02]: So let's see, there would have been like 300 years or so of completely different history. [SPEAKER_02]: And I would think that with those 300 years being relatively on touch, [SPEAKER_02]: what's the word I'm looking for?

5:25 [SPEAKER_02]: The taboo of AI that the Koreans would have gained a bigger foothold in Citadel politics. [SPEAKER_02]: They would have expanded their colonies. [SPEAKER_02]: I know that they still had weak immune systems. [SPEAKER_02]: However, they were also masters at software and engineering anyway.

5:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that a lot of that was improved from hardship and resourcefulness that was necessary when they were aboard the fleet, but clearly they were already masters of electronics and things like that before creating the GIF. [SPEAKER_02]: So if we assume that we're going in this historical timeline, basically right until the point where they have made that final update to the GIF being sentient, but everything else [SPEAKER_02]: I would say that the Koreans would have had a seat on the council by the time that humanity actually made contact.

6:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I think with the level of technology and along those lines that they would be able to bring, they would be their own powerhouse, and absolutely would have the respect of the council, not even like just like the respect, but the other species, the other races would want access to that. [SPEAKER_01]: And so therefore, would grant them a seat on the council.

6:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So that way, [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thinking about, in terms of, you know, how much of a threat they may have posed had they not been exiled, you know, considering their prowess in the fields of technology, I can see them giving the salarians a run for their money. [SPEAKER_02]: being able to perhaps hack into STG networks, you know what I mean?

7:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think the council's natural inclination would have been, okay, we need to bring them closer before we push them away because they could wreak some serious havoc. [SPEAKER_02]: if they are not close, and they continue to advance and they are a threat. [SPEAKER_02]: So I suppose it could have gone one of two ways, right?

7:40 [SPEAKER_02]: There could have been a different catalyst that pushed them away. [SPEAKER_02]: But without the GIF, I think they would have gotten more and more integrated into the galaxy's economy. [SPEAKER_02]: I think instead of seeing and dinsured servitude contracts on ilium, [SPEAKER_02]: and other planets involving the Koreans, we would probably see some pretty lucrative staffing placements in some of the galaxy's highest tech firms, like I'm thinking of binary helix, [SPEAKER_02]: Oh man, I can't remember the other names at the moment because I'm sleep deprived, but you know where I'm going with this.

8:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that we would have seen simply seen a lot more Koreans throughout the galaxy because they would have been able to get amazing jobs off their homeworld and spread out and have families on different worlds and different space stations. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that they would have just overall been a much larger part of the game.

8:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree because we don't see that many wild Koreans out there in Citadel space. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a foreign pirate, see there. [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that it would have made the Koreans a lot more of a populous that we get to see out there. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a great question to start with [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you brought up the biology, how the biology would be different, right?

9:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But they wouldn't need the suits because they wouldn't be on the migrant fleet. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm, so I have a question about this that I don't think I can answer, because I remember when I was learning about Korean lore, I found that, you know, they naturally have a pretty weak immune system because of the lack of pathogenic microbes, or something like that, on random.

9:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that wouldn't have changed, right? [SPEAKER_02]: They were comparatively rare on RANIC, but obviously they exist in other worlds. [SPEAKER_02]: So they could have been hampered by that in terms of colonization prospects, just like the volus were hampered with that. [SPEAKER_02]: If that slowed down their economy and therefore their military, then, [SPEAKER_02]: maybe it's possible they would have also gone into some kind of contract for protection with the Terrians.

10:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not where I was expecting you to go with that. [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking that maybe the migrant fleet still would have become a thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you are no longer able to support and sustain all of your life on your home planet, the migrant fleet still becomes a thing so that [SPEAKER_02]: So I also think that the geography here plays an important role.

10:29 [SPEAKER_02]: The Perseus veil, the system where Ranic is, is right on the edge of the terminus systems, isn't it? [SPEAKER_03]: It is. [SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty far out there, and it's right on the edge of the terminus systems. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's kind of on the rim of the galaxy. [SPEAKER_02]: So I would think that they would be naturally inclined to either a build up their own military to protect themselves from pirates.

10:54 [SPEAKER_02]: or be rely on a stronger military for protection. [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I can't remember at the time, in the 1850s, had the [SPEAKER_01]: that's testing my lure. [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I don't think that it was, I don't think that they just covered it that long ago. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was more recent than that.

11:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm looking it up right now. [SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was in 2163 that they found. [SPEAKER_02]: uh, the Leviathan of this, uh, because I'm sorry, it was a gigantic corpse that disappeared from a crater on Jartar in 2163. [SPEAKER_02]: The battarians discovered it looks like, um, I'm trying to read really quick here.

11:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, okay, so here's where I was going with this. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that [SPEAKER_02]: If it had been at the right time in which the battarians were still kind of interacting with the galaxy and they were not these ostracized authoritarian, you know, hostile state, then it's possible that instead of relying on the terrians, the Koreans may have gone into a protection contract with the battarians.

12:26 [SPEAKER_02]: which I think in turn might have legitimized the battarians a little bit more in the galaxy. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, actually I could totally see that in trouble that path with you because the battarians are ostracized because of their isolationist policies and their slavers and tendencies and drug running and the things that the negative impacts that we see of being a part of the [SPEAKER_01]: And so, if they are allied with the very powerful yet undefended Koreans, that will boost their power base as well.

13:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I was curious, so I looked up the Beterian page on the Mass Effect Wiki, and it says, despite being welcomed into the galactic community, Beterian aggression provoked several crises in galactic relations over the years. [SPEAKER_02]: Sometime around 1785, a Beterian fleet bombarded the salarian colony world of Manovai.

13:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was in 1785. [SPEAKER_02]: So, about 80 years give or take after that. [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't look like anything else major happened with the battarians until the 1900s and 2100s. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it is plausible to say that if the Koreans, perhaps, were wanting a closer ally than the Turians, geographically closer, then they could have relied on the Baterians for protection against the pirate fleets of the Terminus systems.

14:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And in so doing that influx of funds might have prevented [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because then the Koreans would be their main source of income and instead of like in this aggression level that Patarians have, would have been put to good use in the form of protection against other pirates, other people or anything else that is going to come out of the terminus zone.

14:35 [SPEAKER_02]: it kind of sounds like and reading this lore about the battarians that there was some point in the 18th or 19th century CE where the battarians went more and more aggressive and hostile. [SPEAKER_02]: And this is right around the time that the morning war happens, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like [SPEAKER_02]: that the Koreans never creating the gift could have been a catalyst for kind of saving, if you could save the materials.

15:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I do need to drill down on this and look up after the show when exactly that Leviathan was found, because not when it's body disappeared, but when it was found, because if it was found after the morning war, [SPEAKER_02]: then there is an argument to be made that the death never being created would have prevented the deterrence from expanding the way they did and they would have never found the the vids and of this.

15:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, traveling down so many paths from just a simple question. [SPEAKER_01]: I love these episodes. [SPEAKER_02]: And okay, so we kind of got onto that deterrence side track because we're talking about the biology. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, so the, the lack of pathogenic microbes on RANIC would have restricted the amount of colonies that were viable for the Koreans, meaning that their economy and their GDP kind of would have had a hard cap compared to other other civilizations.

16:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But you can also turn that on its head and look at our real world and say look at some countries that are incredibly small geographically, but they have a massive GDP in comparison, like to their geographical size. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking of like South Korea. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: Or Japan.

16:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess the Koreans are masters in the world of information technology, you could say that geographically they don't really need this space to have a huge impact on the economy. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, just having a large geographical base means that you have the ability to expand your civilization as a people, because physical space is necessary to have a large population.

17:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So if they want a population growth, then they would need to have additional colonies and things off-world off of Rannock. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that one of the ways the Koreans would be able to resolve that is either through their suits, because now they're not so much focused on building up gas AI technology.

17:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They could enhance their own personal suits, you know, much like they have, but make it so that way they could live and colonize on multiple planets, [SPEAKER_01]: you know, gravity, reinforcements or other things that make it so that way they can they can breathe the air, breathe the air and make it so that way there's less pathenejins coming through recycling the air within their own suits and everything like that to make it so that way they can live wherever they want.

17:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And let's not ignore the elephant in the room, which is that we would know what Koreans look like. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: They wouldn't have their suits for, you know, pretty much everywhere else besides where they absolutely needed their hazard suits, just like humans, you know.

18:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that could have some, like on a very micro level, that could have some serious social repercussions, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there's a, there's a level of distrust in the mass-factor universe of the [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: So without the suits, that would be gone.

18:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And I also think that Koreans would be probably more apt for acts of physical affection, because they would be so worried. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm sorry, what was that? [SPEAKER_01]: being able to feel and touch and communicate with people through that way. [SPEAKER_01]: And especially to humans because we rely so heavily on facial reactions and body language to understand intent and reading beyond what the words themselves are saying, being able to see a Korean see a race and see what their body language is doing, makes it so much easier to communicate.

19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: There would also be profound implications for Korean cuisine, like Korean cooking because if you remember in the lore, it says that basically most of the time because they're on the migrant fleet, they rely on like paceds. [SPEAKER_02]: And if, if, if they are lucky or they're specifically privileged, I think they can eat like especially purified turian food.

19:46 [SPEAKER_02]: But without the suits without the atrophied immune systems, without the migrant fleet, I feel like we'd probably see a much more robust display of core inquisene in the galaxy. [SPEAKER_02]: uh... dang what would quarry and food be like feel like a lot of fish uh... although i i seem to remember that they were vegan i could be completely wrong but i seem to remember that they were vegan but that could have also just been because keeping animals aboard the the migrant fleet was like very impractical uh... yeah i think maybe that was like a cultural choice rather than an actual dietary restriction [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

20:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So I, yeah, I think that there would be profound biological and social ramifications here. [SPEAKER_02]: I also wonder how Korean government would have changed because the migrant fleet necessitated a military tribunal. [SPEAKER_02]: That was not the case beforehand. [SPEAKER_01]: Also, it just totally popped into my head that Tally is not vegan because she eats [SPEAKER_02]: I guess you're right.

21:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Corin. [SPEAKER_02]: She's not vegan, but then again, she's also kind of a black sheep. [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of Tally, we would have never met her. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think she would have been born. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, never would have been born or at least not out on her pilgrimage.

21:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely, and then well, the pilgrimage wouldn't exist. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a big part of it, too. [SPEAKER_02]: So the pilgrimages wouldn't exist. [SPEAKER_02]: and that would mean that Tally was never introduced to the Normandy, but that would also mean that Tally was never there to catch the evidence against Seren.

21:37 [SPEAKER_02]: However, Seren would have also never been able to build a death army. [SPEAKER_01]: yeah okay so now we're traveling down more of that path of of what the get themselves had the impact on the story did you want to switch over to that or talk about what the chlorine uh government would be like yeah you're right like i'm getting too distracted let's talk more about the chlorine government with salt [SPEAKER_02]: and impending like a constant lingering crisis that crisis being resource scarcity.

22:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're a lack of a homeworld that was taken from them, at least that's how they saw it. [SPEAKER_02]: Without that, I would say that the Koreans would be more likely to embrace a democratic form of government. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that, especially since they already seem to have a representative democracy when and to a council where the captain of the ship goes and presents what their ship would like to do.

22:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I think a democracy in some form of another is what they would go with. [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe even something similar to the Asari Republics, where it's a confederation of different, kind of republic states. [SPEAKER_02]: However, I keep coming back to this idea about the Korean still interacting with the galaxy through exporting their prowess and technology.

23:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it obviously took an incredible, a many different incredible feeds of engineering to build the migrant fleet and retrofit different ships to be able to house them and different things like that. [SPEAKER_02]: That kind of generational knowledge. [SPEAKER_02]: was not just spawned overnight, right?

23:31 [SPEAKER_02]: However, they needed that knowledge to escape Ranic in the first place. [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows how much technological records and data was lost when they lost Ranic? [SPEAKER_02]: And I would say that it's probably likely [SPEAKER_02]: that they would have become the Milky Way's premier Starship like engineers and Starship manufacturers.

23:59 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the word I was looking for. [SPEAKER_02]: The best, most cutting edge ships wouldn't be coming from, you know, alliance, terrain hierarchy, partnerships. [SPEAKER_02]: They would be coming from [SPEAKER_01]: interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I like how our brains went completely opposite pathways here because I see that as the Koreans that being forced to be, uh, uh, the, this, in jeopardy, this, uh, like when you are under the pressure of you need this in order to survive, so therefore you get good, because you got to get good.

24:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But if they don't have the pressure of we are being forced onto the migrant fleet, we have to flee our home world, does that same level of ingenuity happen, or do they focus on other things, things that they want to do rather than they are forced to learn? [SPEAKER_02]: I was muted, it might help if I unmute my mic.

25:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It also comes down to whether or not when we say that they never created the death, did they never even make the servant class of the death or did they just stop before they became sentient. [SPEAKER_02]: And for this, for argument sake, I mean, to say they stopped right before making them sentient.

25:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So they still had essentially very intelligent max who were able to terraform, which is [SPEAKER_02]: with that kind of help and that technology integrated in hazard suits, I kind of, I retract my statement about the Koreans being limited with where they could colonize. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that they wouldn't.

25:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we did some math a little while ago during the Korean episodes where we talked about, okay, if they guessed the limited 98 percent of their population and the migrant fleet still has this many people living [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a very large number in the 1800s. [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, advance that 300 years with no cap on colonization.

26:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the Koreans may have taken a lot of worlds that either the Beterians held, that were pirate held in the Termina systems, or that were even eyed for colonization otherwise by the humans. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could see that for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Do we think that they would then become that aggressive?

26:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't feel Korean aggression. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I feel like Anne Murl's in an admiral, oh man, what's his name, Geralt? [SPEAKER_02]: Might disagree there. [SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't think that them being exiled, I don't think that their creation of the gift changed Korean nature.

26:58 [SPEAKER_02]: any more than humanity finding the galaxies other species change human nature. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that the Koreans still have that capacity for violence and aggression and expansionism. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, I guess. [SPEAKER_02]: And in that regard, maybe they would be forced to kind of build up a military to uh, but heads against the Baterians.

27:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Hell, maybe instead of, uh, you know, series of conflicts between the Baterians and humanity, like the [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I can see that. [SPEAKER_02]: And we find out from grunt that Koreans are surprisingly hard to kill. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that was because of the suits though, not because of their physiology or anything.

27:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't remember exactly why he said that. [SPEAKER_02]: But he did say that, right? [SPEAKER_02]: That he'd rather fight a human than a Korean. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that terrians are easier to kill than you would think you just got to rip off the right pieces.

28:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, such a way with words. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: So. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go to the midbrake, and when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about how the absence of the death specifically changes the galaxy and not how it changes the Koreans. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's go to the midbrake.

28:32 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be right back. [SPEAKER_07]: We have the bacon. [SPEAKER_07]: We have beer, the foods of my people. [SPEAKER_04]: Young men have funny ideas of what a star are like. [SPEAKER_04]: I blame the [SPEAKER_06]: Rex. [SPEAKER_06]: Shepherd. [SPEAKER_06]: Grant. [SPEAKER_06]: Shepherd. [SPEAKER_06]: Rex.

28:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Grant. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, here we are in the middle of the show and this is the part where we read out your five star reviews. [SPEAKER_02]: If you've left them, I don't think we have any new ones. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not seeing any on our review aggregator. [SPEAKER_02]: Are you Genesis?

29:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes we have different results. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I am not. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't have any new reviews from Apple podcasts, but there's other platforms where you can write them to like cast box, different pod catchers, even audible from Amazon. [SPEAKER_02]: It allows you to write reviews on our show.

29:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And we also try to read out the comments that people have left on our most recent episode on Spotify. [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, we do have a few comments there. [SPEAKER_02]: We have one from EOS. [SPEAKER_02]: who writes on the, what we hate about Mass Effect episode. [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, I'm not able to leave a proper rating five stars in parenthetical, because I listen on another app and Spotify won't let me want to allow me to write and less I'm using their own player.

29:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I also wanted to comment on one of the recent episodes, but now I can't even browse the back catalog. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh well, in one of the Garus episodes, you were wondering if there were any fans that disliked him. [SPEAKER_02]: There is me. [SPEAKER_02]: either don't recruit him or recruit him to be mean and sent him into the vents.

30:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Who's the rebel now? [SPEAKER_02]: Love the show. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, EOS. [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate your time and listening to the show, and I apologize if me reading out your review just got you some hate mail. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, wow. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to know the reason why. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I know why I like Gary's, even like, if I wasn't such a huge romance fan of him, I like the theory and even as just like a best bro.

30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so I'd like to know your reasoning behind why you just don't like him. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm intrigued. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we should invite EOS on to the show and just grill them. [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you may not be able to leave comments on Spotify where you want to, but you can always hit us up on the discord or social media is absolutely right.

31:05 [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, with that, we like to shout out our five, uh, tier five patrons every week. [SPEAKER_02]: And this week, we want to give a shout out to a day, night star, red trobat, superfly 440, Ed Boyk, Kira C, looked in it to Sino and William. [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess I should have looked to see if we got any new patrons, I think we did in the past two weeks.

31:29 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. [SPEAKER_02]: We should thank Alex M. And we should thank, um, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: We should we should thank Alex M. Simply human and nightstar. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you all for your continued support of the show and [SPEAKER_01]: No, again, we failed to pull lines for each other for the guessing game.

31:58 [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's pull two lines, one like we quiz each other one each for the next week. [SPEAKER_02]: Then we'll be able to speed. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, sounds good. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, we'll keep this mid-break short and sweet. [SPEAKER_02]: So let's get back to the rest of the show.

32:15 [SPEAKER_03]: After time adrift among open stars, a long tides of light and through shows of dust, I will return to where I began. [SPEAKER_05]: Celery and reproduction different, very little sex-tried. [SPEAKER_05]: If intended to try human, would try you? [SPEAKER_02]: Out, my bakeries! [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, so let's talk about Seren and what I would think would become a failed coup from the get-go.

32:39 [SPEAKER_02]: But maybe Seren would find a way, because Seren would still run into Sovereign. [SPEAKER_02]: That happens regardless of the geth. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to think of what replacement army Seren would have outside of the guess. [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe from a gameplay standpoint, they would have bumped up the timeline for the Clone Crogan.

33:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I was thinking of the same exact thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it was sovereign technology. [SPEAKER_02]: That was allowing that. [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, I think sovereign would have just said, yeah, just make an army of Krugin or Racknye. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, do, well, but we only have the one queen that we know of would, or would sovereign have brought back more or well, I think Seren would have still gone after the Racknye queen.

33:34 [SPEAKER_02]: to be able to bring back the Ragnai. [SPEAKER_02]: And then, at the same time, probably be building a Crogan army. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Ragnai and Crogan fighting together under Seren. [SPEAKER_01]: That's terrifying. [SPEAKER_02]: It is, that is terrifying. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that's not at all two different from Mass Effect One.

33:59 [SPEAKER_02]: What is different from aspect one is that the GIF, which were composing the bulk of his force, would not be there. [SPEAKER_02]: So how could he wage war? [SPEAKER_02]: And he wouldn't also been able to hide behind well, my Starship is special because it's GIF technology. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they would have been like, what?

34:21 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, no, it's not what the hell is that, man. [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like he would have also had a harder time than he thought he might have with cloned Crogan, because organic soldiers have needs. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they talk, they get tired. [SPEAKER_02]: They're very susceptible to being detected [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and you kind of also have to feed an army?

34:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And Crogant was on. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: How are you going to feed an army of Crogant? [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, because you don't have to feed a death. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe give them some oil every once in a while. [SPEAKER_02]: or beer like bender and the thing is that Seren's like campaign was all built around stealth and speed like moving fast and breaking things so and and remaining undetected so I feel like his campaign would not have gone the same way even if it did.

35:28 [SPEAKER_02]: like continue anyway, who knows, maybe sovereign would have not seen the same potential in Seren. [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing is, Seren himself would not have become as powerful because he would not have had, quote unquote, any help from the GIF in implanting the technology, even though it was re-bred tech.

35:49 [SPEAKER_01]: do you think that that would have just changed seren's approach to things? [SPEAKER_01]: Because if I'm given a guest army and comparison to a Crogan army, I'm not going to rely on stealth and substitute huge. [SPEAKER_01]: If I've got Crogan, we ball in. [SPEAKER_01]: Like we are going for a lot of attacks.

36:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that being said, I think it would have attracted a lot more quick action and decisive action from the council. [SPEAKER_01]: you know, they wouldn't have just been like, people rogue a lot earlier. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, they wouldn't have just been like, you know, let's send, let's throw humanity about and give him a specter and then send the one guy after him.

36:30 [SPEAKER_01]: okay so if the reapers didn't have this death army to uh to heretic to turn over to sovereign side do you think that they could have possibly indoctrinated a different species or pulled the collectors in earlier? [SPEAKER_02]: oh they very well could have pulled the collectors in earlier but I think [SPEAKER_02]: the galaxy being united against a collector in a me the collectors would have been decimated I think.

37:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think because humanity and basically just Cerberus, alone being led by Shepherd, that alone was enough to take out the collectors. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think the collectors could put up that much of a fight if the humans, the Beterians, the Terriens, every major military power in the galaxy was fighting against them.

37:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that the Crogan still would have been a good option to indoctrinate because I wonder about their redundant nervous systems and whether or not that would allow the reapers to indoctrinate them faster without worrying about them losing physical capacity to carry out the orders. [SPEAKER_01]: Or does that give them better mental defenses because they have redundancies and therefore [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe I don't know.

37:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I maybe they wouldn't need to indoctrinate them at all, just dangling the carrot of a cure to the genophage in front of them may have been enough. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, Rex was almost willing to go join sovereign on Vermeer because there was a cure to the genophage through these clones and only Shepherd was able to talk them out of it.

38:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think. [SPEAKER_02]: I think instead of there being a coup ultimately on the Citadel where Seren just kind of shows up with an army of GIF, I think it would have been a much more visible hard thought like actual galaxy wide war that he tries to wage. [SPEAKER_02]: And if the Spectres and if the Citadel Council were not quick enough in trying to nip [SPEAKER_02]: I think that it probably would have been much more bloody, and at that point then I would expect and maybe I'd be wrong, but I'd expect then after the war, the Citadel Council would take the reapers a little more seriously.

39:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if it wasn't death attacking, if it was Krogan attacking, they would be able to tell, they would, well, I don't know, actually because if it is a Krogan army, then they would just say that this is standard Krogan aggression. [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you think we approved the genophage?

39:23 [SPEAKER_01]: See, they're just repeating history again. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think the, uh, the idea of staying secrecy for the [SPEAKER_02]: And that brings to mind that in Mass Effect 3, there may have been no one willing to help you cure the genophage. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think it was major, Crogan aggression that took on the Citadel.

39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think there would have been a lot of things that were different, some for the worst, some for the better. [SPEAKER_02]: There would also be, of course, no Legion. [SPEAKER_02]: We would never have Legion if we didn't have the Geth, and I think that would mean that we wouldn't get a lot of the synthetic versus organic themes throughout the entire series.

40:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, with ED, we do get some of that, but with ED she feels so much more like the emotional side of it and like watching her grow and with Legion it's [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot more logic based to it. [SPEAKER_01]: So we don't get, we don't get this. [SPEAKER_01]: We never would have gone in and seen a gas hub.

40:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We never would have gotten all that information because it never would have existed to begin with. [SPEAKER_02]: And we wouldn't have a representative example of what a hive mind, like an intelligent hive mind species looks like. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I feel like we wouldn't, we would be robbed of that chance to see the gift develop individuality, uh, and obviously we would never have anything close to Legion asking, do I have a soul?

41:19 [SPEAKER_02]: However, I think we're also, like, making all of these assumptions on the premise that [SPEAKER_02]: would make a true sentient AI in the meantime. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's 300 years that passes between the morning war and win, Mass Effect 1 starts. [SPEAKER_02]: Considering the top secret AI research that's being done on, oh man, side on, I think.

41:49 [SPEAKER_02]: He had the planet side on, by humanity. [SPEAKER_02]: in mass-fact revelation. [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a strong argument to be made that without the cautionary tale of the death, humanity may have stumbled down that same path and created a sentient synthetic race that takes Earth.

42:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could definitely see that or the a sorry thinking that this AI would be able to help them politically or the Tureans thinking that anish dip AI would be able to help them advance militarily. [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many different species out there that would be able to possibly create this without having [SPEAKER_02]: A.I.

42:41 [SPEAKER_02]: adjusting exchange rates across the entire galaxy. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, wow. [SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, so just for the sake of argument, if there was still another species that created an AI, who do you think would be most likely to do it? [SPEAKER_02]: I think probably either the salarians or humanity.

43:05 [SPEAKER_02]: The salarians because of their technological prowess, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and especially with real world, it being 2026, and we are already approaching AI territory, I think, throw in an extra 100 years and we would definitely be there. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, hell, even with the cautionary tale, we still get 80.

43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. [SPEAKER_02]: Who? [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, was a VI in 2183 on the moon. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think humans would be a top contender for creating, and it could have been multiple species simultaneously, creating a sentient AI, hopefully not, but perhaps even making an AI arms race.

43:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can see that and I definitely agree that Celeryans would be the second pick for using that technology and getting it there because who better than a VI partner to, you know, store all your data, all of your knowledge to be somebody to bounce ideas off of the way that Morton's always talking to himself if he had an AI to talk to.

44:20 [SPEAKER_01]: and help build and learn and do all these things and the slurians would see that as a huge advantage. [SPEAKER_02]: I also think that the reapers kind of used the gift to soften up the galaxy at least before they got there. [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, they plan on Seren being the one to bring them all through the relay or not Seren, but sovereign to bring them all through the relay, but they also planned for the backup plan, which was that they would just all invade anyway from dark space.

44:54 [SPEAKER_02]: without the death having damaged the citadel to that extent, without the death having taken out a third, I think it was a third of the fifth fleet from the Alliance and plenty of other ships from citadel defense forces. [SPEAKER_02]: It would have been a much stronger, militarily speaking, all things the same.

45:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It would have been a much stronger galaxy when the reapers did arrive. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree, because there is no death there to kind of fight things off. [SPEAKER_01]: They wouldn't have been still picking off the Koreans whenever they got the opportunity to. [SPEAKER_01]: The Korean race would also still have their main populace.

45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and then I feel like the the dragons teeth, right, that make it so that way you can husk people. [SPEAKER_01]: Those are partial guests and re-protectionology, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I think so. [SPEAKER_02]: Now that you say, I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, okay, it may have been mistaken for guest technology.

46:05 [SPEAKER_01]: that's also a valid point. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think the reapers getting to the Milky Way and finding the Percy's veil as this highly technologically advanced Korean empire would have also slowed them down a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: The Koreans have been the best student. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, they would have been like one of some of the first to possibly learn of the Reaper forces arriving and if they had this space on the council, a seat on the council, maybe the council would have actually listened to a sooner that the Reapers were coming.

46:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe or maybe they wouldn't, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Because there would be no GIF lighting the fire under their butts. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: The council seems intent on not listening. [SPEAKER_02]: So they could have just not listened no matter what. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think the corins would have been the best suited to fight an intelligent machine race.

47:07 [SPEAKER_02]: They, and if they were allowed to advance the way that they did, and there were no death heretics bolstering the repress forces, the galaxy would have at the very least not have been fractured the way that it was. [SPEAKER_02]: The reapers would have had a harder time, maybe even maybe the Milky Way would have been able to conventionally defeat the reapers, because of some breakthrough in technology.

47:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, now that I think about it, all things the same, imagine if the Koreans did have this technologically supreme empire, and then they were able to help in that capacity with the crucible. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think that from a gameplay standpoint, the Koreans would kind of replace the death for what they did because at the end of Mass Effect 3, the death in Korean alliance is what causes our assets to go up high enough to have the computational [SPEAKER_01]: our and everything that's needed to help finish the crucible.

48:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So the Koreans would have to advance technology to the point where they are at gas levels of that. [SPEAKER_01]: So we would still need a highly advanced race in order to build the kit crucible. [SPEAKER_02]: we would or and basically just a team of of different species across the universe and who knows with the death out of the picture maybe the Koreans would have been called in to help with excavating some of the ruins on Mars.

48:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Which would have perhaps led to the discovery of the [SPEAKER_01]: a lot sooner, and then we would have that, and we could have, but I mean, without context, and nobody's just going to go, oh, wow, I found the blue prints to this really random weapon that might do something crazy.

49:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go ahead and build it. [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't seem [SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe not build it, but study it definitely, um, and think, well, why was it even necessary, you know, that kind of thing, ask questions about why the blueprints are even there. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, well, a lot, a lot to think about, and I feel like we could probably go on another hour.

49:32 [SPEAKER_02]: talking about this, but I think we've been speaking about an hour now, so why don't we wrap up and, you know, Genesis do you have any final thoughts on what if the death never created the coreings never created the death? [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think that my final thoughts on this is that it either goes, you know, one of two ways.

49:55 [SPEAKER_01]: The powerful Korean civilization helps defeat the reapers, or the true irony is, is that by creating the death, the Koreans might have accidentally created one of the galaxy's greatest weapons against the reapers. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm my personal thought as someone would have made a sentient AI because apparently it happens in every cycle.

50:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And so if it weren't the Koreans, it would have been someone else and I think it would have been either the humans or the salarians or perhaps both. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: And who knows what they would have created, maybe it'd be worse than the death. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it would have just wiped out organics in the first place.

50:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, the AI is wiping out the organics and then what are the repres need to even do other than come in and sweep things up? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, according to Reaper logic, that would be bad. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, Reaper's may have jumped in sooner, I guess, to preserve the organics.

50:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Do the Reaper's serve a purpose. [SPEAKER_01]: That'll be on a future [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're the Reaper secretly, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Boom. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks guys for listening for another awesome what-if episode.

51:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Next week, we will be back with Garrison Mass Effect 3. [SPEAKER_02]: Can't wait for that. [SPEAKER_02]: And then the week after that is my birthday. [SPEAKER_02]: So that'll be the patron chat, I think. [SPEAKER_02]: Right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it'll be the patron chat that week.

51:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So, all right, we will get to that when we can, but yeah, expect more garrison in the meantime. [SPEAKER_02]: And anything you want to shout out, Genesis? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gearing up for the Portland Retro Gaming Expo coming up in October, so that's kind of where a little bit of my focus has been recently.

51:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, of course, have my two other shows going on. [SPEAKER_01]: Cyberpunk is on a little bit of a break for July. [SPEAKER_01]: To see you and I have some really awesome things going on in our personal lives that our scheduling is just way too hard to manage right now. [SPEAKER_01]: So Cyberpunk is on break until the end of the month.

52:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But the girls are currently covering Persona 5, so if that is your game, come check out our recent episodes. [SPEAKER_02]: Nice, go check it out. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have much going on in the realm of podcasting just because I'm getting my feet under me with the new job and balancing having a toddler and a dog and yada yada yada a lot of new stuff.

52:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I have this is the first time I've sat up my desk. [SPEAKER_02]: in like my home desk, and I want to say like a week and a half maybe? [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't played many video games lately, and it's just because my bedtime is 7pm, which is my son's bedtime. [SPEAKER_02]: So that means when he goes to bed, I have to go to bed, which means I don't get any free time at all.

53:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, anyway, pray for me if you believe in that kind of thing like being kind of layers or whatnot. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, catch you guys later and until next time, don't create sentient AI. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, bye everyone. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening to the Mass Effect War Test.

53:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Reach out to us on BlueSky, Twitter, Discord, Patreon, or email us at Mass EffectLoreCast at gmail.com. [SPEAKER_01]: Join us next week for more lore, same space, same time. [SPEAKER_01]: Or check out our live streams at twitch.tv-maps Effect4cast.