Amazon, Google, ChatGPT: When Do Products Start Gaming Their Users?

Bing Gordon co-founded Electronic Arts, spent 18 years at Kleiner Perkins, sat on Amazon's board for 15 and is credited by John Doerr and Jeff Wilke with the idea for Prime. He also sat on Zynga's board, which is why it lands when he says players felt relief when they quit Farmville while retention and revenue were still climbing. So where's the line between good game design and gaming your users? Bing's answer takes in TikTok doom scrolling, WhatsApp as the rare product nobody complains about overusing, the sponsored products Amazon still shows Prime members, and ChatGPT ending every answer with one more question. Then Dave asks what the whole agent era keeps circling: what gets worse if your AI wins for you? Friction is what makes pearls, says Bing, and the next frictions will come from edge conditions nobody tested. Plus the wow/WTF scale he used to judge EA's Hall of Fame games, and the bet-your-job letter he kept in a drawer.

Everybody Wins by Bing Gordon and Chloe Gordon: penguinrandomhouse.com/books/797436/everybody-…

Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:02 No Lessins This Week: Brit and Dave Bring In Bing Gordon
02:42 Amazon's Board, Prime, and 18 Years at Kleiner Perkins
05:03 Disneyland Inside the Computer
06:51 The Classroom Question That Led to Electronic Arts
09:44 Raising $2M in 1982, Then Atari Collapsed
10:56 Vision, and Why People Think You're Stupid
11:37 Bathroom OKRs and Why Goals Beat Perfection
13:13 Word of Mouth, and Why Coin-Operated Hires Leave
14:44 "Can a Computer Make You Cry?" and Hiring on Mission
16:53 Why Games Retain: Where Everybody Knows Your Name
17:34 Which Social Network Did It Best?
18:36 LinkedIn Endorsements and Getting People to Come Back
20:19 Farmville: Players Felt Relief When They Quit
21:18 Growth Hacking Is Human Growth Hormone
23:04 Amazon, TikTok, ChatGPT: Who's Gaming Their Users Today?
24:21 What Gets Worse If Your AI Agent Wins for You?
25:03 Friction Is What Makes Pearls
26:30 Hugging Face, Cruise, and the Edge Conditions Nobody Tests
29:04 Writing Everybody Wins With His Daughter Chloe
32:19 The Visionary and the Operator
33:20 The Wow/WTF Scale, and How to Manufacture a Wow
36:08 Wow Moments in Games, Facebook, Instagram and Amazon
38:42 Creating Wow Moments as a Parent
41:28 The Bet Your Job Moment
42:23 You Only Got Fired for Blaming Someone Else
43:19 Good Risk vs Bad Risk
43:53 Invest and Express: Twitch, Chat, and Kids' Art on the Wall
45:59 Dave's Favorite Bing-ism: The Airplane Aisle Test
47:30 The Best Retention Hack Ever Made Is a Wedding Ring
48:01 Session Economics, Novelty, and Leveling Up
51:51 How to Gamify a Board Meeting
54:03 Why a Founder Who Loses the Board Twice Gets Replaced
55:23 Family Board Meetings and the Vice President of Fun
56:17 Lightning Round: Books, Heroes, Best Investment
58:41 Bing's P(doom): Boomers Are Gonna Doom
59:36 The Three Things That Make a Good Day
1:01:59 Dave's iPhone Duo Verdict
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Connect with our guest: Bing Gordon, author of Everybody Wins (with Chloe Gordon), available everywhere including Amazon. Bing narrated the audiobook.
X: x.com/bingfish
Connect with us here:
1) Sam Lessin: x.com/lessin
2) Dave Morin: x.com/davemorin
3) Jessica Lessin: x.com/Jessicalessin
4) Brit Morin: x.com/brit
About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.