AI in Live Broadcast with Tim Huckaby

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And I'm Richard Kemp.

We're here for another hour of silliness. Probably silliness because Tim Huckabee's here.

I strongly suspect, yes.

But all good meaty stuff, too, and some good stories, which Tim always brings. But before we do that, let's talk about this being episode 2024. Let's talk about what happened a couple of years ago.

Yeah, it's only literally a couple of years ago. I've kind of gotten to the end of this. Almost to the end. Where do you want to start? I know what you're going to start with.

Well, I mean, if you look back at the top 10 events, they're pretty historical events, right? And we just don't know it yet because we're only two years out. But first of all, Donald Trump won the 2024 U.S. president election, right?

That's historic.

And that's after Joe Biden withdrew from the presidential race and Kamala Harris was appointed to, you know, the actual running mate. The Israel-Gaza war expanded into a broader Middle East conflict. The Russia-Ukraine war enters its third year and Russia gains some ground.

Second year, but yeah. It's 2022, it's 2024.

Okay. I would argue the more- But it did enter the third year in 2024.

I think the more important thing was this was the point where Ukraine actually took Russian territory. They entered the Kursk area and the Western restrictions on I realize in hindsight now that when they went into Kursk and nothing bad happened, really. I mean, it's a war. It's terrible. But, you know, the Russians always said that was a red line.

That red line was nothing. That was the point where the Western nation said, okay, yeah, you can launch our missiles into Russia now. That's not a big deal. And really did change the vibe.

And North Korea brought in a bunch of troops and promptly died.

They all died. But first they got on the internet and spent their whole time with cell phones on porn.

Yeah.

For the first time.

Exactly.

This is good. I want to stay here. Boom.

Boom.

If you turn on your phone, you get bombed.

Bashar al-Assad's regime collapsed in Syria.

Yeah. Took long enough.

Kind of a surprise.

We really haven't heard much from Syria since then either. They're just trying to pull the pieces back together.

Donald Trump had an attempt on his life on July 13th.

Crazy.

Yeah.

Butler, Pennsylvania.

Yeah.

Let's see. Historic global election year.

Yeah.

Produces an anti-incumbent wave. Roughly half the world's population lived in countries holding national elections in 2024. And governments or governing parties suffered major setbacks in the US, UK, France, India, Japan, South Africa, other places. Inflation being the cost of living is a major factor there.

It's also the Olympics, Paris.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

The Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed in Baltimore.

That was amazing.

Because the boat didn't put on the brakes.

Well, it had a whole bunch of problems.

Of course, I'm being facetious, but boat plowed into the bridge, basically.

Crazy.

Hurricane Helene, just absolutely devastating in the southeastern United States.

Yeah.

That was in September. And South Korea had a martial law crisis. You remember that?

Yeah.

December 3rd. And parliament rapidly voted to overturn it, but it was like, I hereby declare martial law. Everybody's like, what?

No, you don't.

Yeah.

How to lose, to not be a leader in a big old hurry.

Yeah.

Haiti collapsed. Again.

Into escalating gang violence.

Yeah.

We don't know what to do there. And the Venezuela election crisis. There's more, I'm sure, we could talk about, but pretty historic year.

All such good news.

Yeah.

That's the bad news. What was the good news in space and.

Tech, Richard? Um, so the 261 space flights in 2024 up from 223 in 2023, the numbers of course are huge. Like this is crazy growth and SpaceX is 138 of them, including their four Starship test flights. So more than half of all the flights in the world in 2024 come out of SpaceX. China's the next most numerous at 64, but you know, SpaceX doubles that too. Um, Various events in January, JAXA, that's the Japanese space program, lands their slim lander on the moon. That will make them only the fifth nation to have a soft landing on the moon.

It's soft, but the vehicle's also upside down, so it doesn't last very long. It tips over and ends up inverted. Also in January, ULA, the United Launch Alliance, launches their Vulcan Centaur after many, many delays and problems. They finally have a maiden flight, and it is successful. This is their replacement for Atlas V and Delta IV. The last Delta flight ever will be in April. Their payload is the astrobiotic Peregrine lunar lander, which fails in orbit before it even gets to the moon. And so nothing wrong with the Vulcan Centaur, although there are problems with the Vulcan Centaur. It hasn't flown much since. But yeah, the lander was a failure. And also in January, the Ingenuity helicopter on Mars. This was a little experimental vehicle on

the– The Perseverance rover that was only supposed to do five flights, it did 72. Yeah. And on that 72 flight, it tipped over as it was landing and damaged the rotor so it couldn't fly again. And that was the end of it. But it definitely set the path for flying vehicles on Mars going forward.

Yep.

In February, Intuitive Machines has a soft landing on the moon. The first time an American vehicle will soft land on the moon since 1972, since Gene Cernan and Apollo 17. In March– We have Starship Test Flight 3, one of the more successful ones. This is the largest vehicle ever flown in an orbital-class rocket, nine meters wide, unbelievably huge.

And it's starting to work, these first few flights. I would argue most impressive space mission in space. 2024 is in June. It's China's. It's the Chang'e 6. So this is their sixth version of a moon lander. This is the one that does sample returns. So it not only lands on the far side of the moon using the telemetry satellite to be able to communicate there, but then its rover picks up. or the arm picks up some samples, loads it into a capsule that launches back into orbit, returns to the Earth and soft lands. Incredible mission.

Wow.

Contrast that also in June to Starliner, Boeing's alternative to the Crew Dragon that's now wildly behind schedule. Its first initial test flights had both failed for various reasons, so why not put people on it? Yeah. Sonny Williams and Butch Wilmore managed to get to the space station and At the time, there was obviously problems, but we didn't understand the full scope of it. We do now. Their lives were absolutely in danger. They do manage to dock to the space station with its maneuvering systems largely crippled and are supposed to be there for a week and take Starliner back down. NASA decides it is not safe and insists that they stay. They end up staying for nine months.

You know, the funny thing about that was everybody felt sorry for them and felt bad for them. And they're like, are you kidding? We want to stay forever.

Exactly. They're astronauts. Astronauts are not normal humans. They are delighted. And eventually they were delighted to stay. Yeah. Crew Dragon mission is changed to leave two seats available for them so they can come back down. Starliner returns empty. successfully, by the way. But yeah, it'll take some time before they'll finally recognize that it's a Class A mishap, that the vehicle was absolutely dangerous. And you will note, it has not flown since.

Yeah.

Although there are rumors they may attempt again later this year. In September, a Crew Dragon privately rented by Jarek Eisenman, Jared Eisenman, the current NASA administrator, does the Polaris Dawn mission. This is the highest orbiting vehicle, manned vehicle since Apollo. And he'll do the first commercial EVA ever. Just another experiment with what the Crew Dragon can do. Two missions in October. Both are to the elsewhere in the solar system.

In October, we have Europa Clipper. This is an ESA and NASA mission. Solar-powered mission to Jupiter, which is crazy because it's like 1 25th of the solar power available out of Jupiter compared to around the Earth. And its job is to evaluate life around Europa. It's not going to go into orbit around Europa. The radiation levels are just too high around Jupiter. So it does this big looping orbits in and out of the radiation fields of Jupiter.

But it'll do 59 close flybys of Europa, although that will not happen until 2030.

Hmm.

And also in October, the HERA mission is launched. This is the follow-up mission to the DART mission. DART was the mission to redirect an asteroid. So this is Dimorphos, the asteroid that they deliberately impacted. So this will actually arrive later this year in November 26. The HERA mission will be to evaluate the fact that they changed the orbit of Dimorphos far more than they expected. They were expecting just a few seconds to change, like 70 seconds, and it ended up being 30 minutes. So they're starting to understand what it would take to modify asteroid orbits, you know, because the reason the dinosaurs died, no space program.

That's right.

Yeah. And that's what I got for space for 2024. Should we talk a bit about compute?

Yeah.

I mean, I don't want to make it all about AI because clearly it is all about AI 2024 for better or worse. But I would bring up like in February, Apple launches the Vision Pro just to prove that not every new product that Apple makes is a wild success.

Well, okay. How about the Apple glasses? That's just what we're talking about. Yeah. That was 2024? That's 2024.

Yeah.

Is that when you became a glasshole? No, no.

That's Google Glasses. Oh, that was Google Glass. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why I was confused.

But this is Apple. And I did not... I considered buying this. They're really expensive, like $ 3, 500. But I ended up not getting one. But... Yeah, not exactly. It doesn't look like there's going to be a follow-up to it.

I didn't buy either of them, so you can understand my confusion.

You're fine. Also in February, Blue Sky launches. This is the time when Twitter is being mangled by a certain tech billionaire and gets a million users on the first day.

Yeah.

You can argue how good or bad it is. It's its own thing, but there it is. I like Blue Sky. I've been there since the beginning. I like Blue Sky too. Yeah. Yeah, I've been there since day one. All right. Now, for better or worse, now we get into May and it becomes all AI all the time. So OpenAI in May ships GPT-4.0. That's the multimodal version.

Right.

So text and images and audio. Also in May, we have Microsoft's Build event, which is where they launch that huge GitHub Copilot focus. Now you can submit issues. You can create issues in GitHub and assign them to Copilot.

Right.

And it'll submit PRs to make your changes.

This is where we learned about MCPs, right?

MCPs had already been around for a while at that point, but this is the first time I think Microsoft's AI plan was more coherent for developers. Like, I mean, GitHub Copilot had been around for a couple of years at this point, but now they really much are tuning up what we today would call a harness. They weren't even using that term yet. Also at Build, although they actually become available in June, are the Copilot Plus PCs.

Right.

I question that, you know, over on Windows Weekly, we talk about how messed up this launch was in so many ways, because this was actually about the Qualcomm Snapdragon X processor. So bringing back ARM to Windows again, although I think with much more success. But they tie it in with this AI story in a way that I think really cripples it.

Yeah.

Because to be a co-pilot plus PC, you have to have an NPU. That NPU needs to be at least 40 tops. But hey, my RTX 5090 with 2,000 tops doesn't count.

Yeah.

I mean, and I think they misjudged that people wanted to use– well, we're going to use these PCs. They wanted to use them for running models and stuff, not chatting with– your local co-pilot. You know what I mean?

Well, they, that was the whole idea, but at that point they really hadn't got anywhere. The launch product, the thing that they were really focused on was a thing called recall. Do you remember this? It's only two years.

Oh yes, I do.

Yeah.

And we were concerned that it was going to be on by default.

It isn't.

No. But it basically takes a screenshot of everything that you do and saves it somewhere. And so you can go back and.

Say, hey– So you can search it.

Yeah.

But, of course, you know, the security concern is, well, if I can search it, so can everybody else. Right.

And they did– you know, I don't know that it was as big a security concern as it was, but, boy, it was a botched launch. And the product still exists, by the way.

Yeah.

Like they– They quietly went and stopped talking about it for six months, ostensibly to improve security. I don't know they made any changes at all. They just never talked about it since. And now, you know, we question what Copilot Plus PCs even are anymore because there are Intel and AMD versions as well that all qualify and is next generation. At some point, these are just going to be PCs.

Well, I kind of think Microsoft got tired of coming late to the party and decided to be really early. And by being really early, they, you know, They had premature products, I think. Yeah.

Well, but I also like that the ARM PCs built on ARM is a good idea, especially with these new processors. Sure. And of course, for us as devs, it's not a big deal because we've always been able to operate on ARM. But over on the run-ass world, as sysadmins, corporations aren't buying these machines. They're expensive for what they are. And the features just haven't been emphasized enough. And there hasn't been the wave of, of senior leadership demand. no sysadmin wanted an iPad in the office. The problem was that the CEO showed up with one and says, I'll be using this from now on. Figure it out.

Right.

And so we were sort of forced to. There's just never been that energy for ARM. BYOD. Yeah. That was the way it was, right? Yeah. One more thing in May, at the Google I.O.

Event.

So this is crazy. This is when Google sort of gets their act together with AI. Of course, they were Google brain. They were the originators there. Why OpenAI exists. They did BARD. It was kind of a disaster. but this is where they really get their sort of Gemini act together. And they talk about Gemini 1.5 pro. This is where the AI overview started appearing in Google search, right?

Which we've, you know, it's been a couple of years of that now. They also talk about their Astra universal AI system, but I don't know that it really landed all that well. And their response to Sora, which was announced in February, although we don't get it till December from open AI is a thing called VO. And speaking of Apple, Their WWDC in June, right after all this, is where they do the most smoke and mirrors thing I've seen Apple ever do in decades.

Apple intelligence?

The Apple intelligence. Oh, boy. And I mean, I feel for them because they do one show a year. And everybody's talking about AI. And they're not a hyperscaler. They're not a research base. They're not those guys. So they feel like they have to do this thing. And it's like, I'm not used to Apple blinking. They're usually pretty darn confident.

But they had also shipped the Vision Pro that year. So they're struggling a little. Right. And Siri's got serious problems.

And they had to say something.

They had to do something. So they made this demo. And like I said, it was like one of the first real smoke and mirrors things I've ever seen them do in really a long time.

And two years later, the most I can think of for Apple intelligence on my iPhone, which isn't really intelligent, Is that the Siri connected through CarPlay has a new voice.

Yeah.

Well.

And I can ask Siri to ask ChatGPT and give it a prompt and get something substantial back rather than just, you know.

I think it's finally two years later coming true.

Yeah. Which is normal.

Like Apple doesn't. experiment they do they deliver finished product like i was when they said apple tells you like cool name show me something amazing because that's what you guys do yeah didn't happen for a while yeah uh one more thing in june which i think is one of the most fundamental things about ai in 2024 which was when claude 3.5 sonnet shipped oh yeah because the later that year they shifted in june but they did major tweaks in october and october seems to be october 2024 is when the debate around AI and development kind of changed. We saw it on the show, right? That all of a sudden, there's no longer, is this useful? It's, okay, what's the right way? Yeah. Anthropic changed the tone on this.

It started in June, although it takes a little while from that. Also in June is when NVIDIA's market cap becomes number one, exceeds the rest of the world with the HP200. And it's like the video game card company suddenly becomes dominant.

Mm-hmm.

It's kind of insane.

Kind of.

July, CrowdStrike. Damn. I've never been able to do a follow-up show on this thing. So this is a product that runs as part of the boot-up sequence in Windows that is supposed to be for security. They botched the deployment, which they had done before, that literally causes machines to blue screen.

Yeah. Yeah.

And because it's mostly running on servers, these servers are now in boot loops. They realize within minutes they've made this mistake and push out a fix. And if you boot looped enough times, sometimes before you could crash, you could load the updated version, sometimes not. So the outage actually goes on for a while.

I knew there was a problem because I was in the airport and all the terminals were blue screen.

All of them.

Yeah.

Not a good sign.

You know, the ones that show you like where you should go.

No.

What baggage claim you're at?

Because a lot of airlines ran this security product. And the reality, of course, is these companies write into Ring Zero so they can crash Windows. And the answer is don't write to Ring Zero anymore. And their response was, okay, Microsoft, we won't write to Ring Zero if you won't. And Microsoft's not going to do that. So near as I can tell, the outcome of CrowdStrike was be more careful next time.

Right.

Which is a hell of a strategy, isn't it?

Yeah. Don't do that.

Yeah. And in November, we get. NET 9. This is one of the standard support versions on a long-term support versions with C Sharp 13. And our second version of Aspire called 9 because numbers are hard. But also, you know, Aspire sort of grows up.

Yeah.

Yeah.. NET 9 time where we really get a good scaffolding for building cloud-native stuff in.

NET.

One last thing in the quantum world, the Google Willow processor, we've been talking quantum off and on through this time. What's interesting about Willow is 105 qubits, but they're starting to do real integrated error corrections. This is a change from trying to push the qubit count up into making more reliable qubits. One would argue that Willow is the beginning of what we call fault-tolerant quantum. and the continuation of that race. And that's what I got. Okay.

Tim, before we introduce you, we got a couple of things to do here, but you could jump in at any time. Starting with Better Know Framework.

Awesome.

All right, man. What do you got? Simon Kropp's been busy since we last recorded a show.

Simon Kropp is always busy, man. That's not a thing.

He built a tool called Build Monitor, which is a build CI monitor that runs in the system tray on Windows, Mac OS, and Linux. It pulls the CI services a developer cares about, shows one row per pipeline with a progress bar and countdown for running builds, links straight to the build, the branch, and the pull request, and can retry or cancel a build and copies the log of a failed one. And that's just the first paragraph. It's pretty cool. The other thing that he mentions is, and I'll include this link as well, That build monitor MCP runs a model context protocol server over standard IO. So a local AI assistant can read the same builds the tray shows and act on them. It starts the tray if it's not running and talks over the local port.

So just talking to the MCP server, you can rerun a build or fix a bug or that kind of thing.

It's pretty cool. Awesome. It doesn't surprise me. He's always thinking about better ways to see stuff. And let's face it, there's more builds happening than ever now with these tools.

Yeah, that's right. So build monitor, know it, learn it, love it. And who's talking to us.

Today, Richard? Grabbed a comment off the show 2017, the one we did with our friend Billy Hollis, which I ultimately just named very simply, arguing about AI. Because we got a ton of comments on the show, which Billy responded to many of them. This one comes from Vale, who says, I love the discussion, notably standing out to see of them these days, but somewhere in the 50, 55 minute Mark about trades, the tech evangelist in me was ringing as the transition of software development into a trade has been my path. And in a world of athletes that didn't do great in school and went to work with their hands, uh, I find some connection to all of this. Uh, Still trying to figure out who said this, but I suspect it was me. He says,

we always talk about the trades when we talk to schools. I thought this is a perfect transition back into software on a software podcast. It was like you all joked about this. But starting in 2025 until my graduation in 2024, he came through the Orlando Seminole State's previously named Computer Programming and Analysis Program, which was both system design and a programming degree. And it skipped over the unnecessary com-sci calc and physics parts. It was a more practical path in the workforce. So while the foundations are in Java, it was about data structures and algorithms and data sets and development and languages and that sort of thing to actually build software. So when people are talking about steering

kids into trades because of AI, I also think that developers could also be more of a trade because most of us aren't building frontier AI systems. We're integrating software, moving data around, maintaining applications, solving business problems, and that's all skilled work with craftsmanship, even apprenticeships, and focus on maintainability and scalability. I find it really interesting in the relationships and market for these skills and letting schools like UCF focus on aerospace, physical systems, and research, while community colleges produce software developers that are ready to communicate and be stewards of business systems. That seems like a healthy ecosystem. Also, I appreciated the historical perspective throughout the episode. Billy made

some great points. You all did a good job of pushing back on that context. And for the record, I really hope the story about the philosopher being mad when the papyrus came along was true. That is true. It was written down at the time. Because humans don't change in 2,000 years. And that doesn't surprise me at all.

Thanks for the great episode.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what I think too.

Uh, fail.

Thank you so much for your comment and a copy of music go by is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music, go by, write a comment on the website at.net rocks.com or on the Facebook. So you publish every show there. And if you comment there and I read it on the show, we'll send you a copy of music to go by.

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Well i i gotta tell you not chiming in listening to you to talk about 2024 was one of the hardest things.

I've ever done i know you should have.

You know, bringing us down memory lane two years ago, but doesn't it seem like that was yesterday?

It does seem like it was yesterday.

Yeah, but also forever ago, too.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, I'm not the only one out of the three of us with gray hair, and it just seems like time is flying by.

Yeah.

So, I got to just say, you sent us two bios. One was the short bio, and one was the long bio. The short bio is probably the longest bio anyone has asked me to read on this show ever.

I'm not asking you to read it. In fact, we can skip it completely.

Well, you know, let's skip to the important parts. Like, first of all, your history with Microsoft and Windows NT and all that stuff and your Bill Gates demos in there. Internology was your first big worldwide custom application development company.

Yeah, the first company I started, yeah, a long time ago.

And then Actus.

And what I'm doing now is actually came from an internetology customer from 20 years ago that just tracked me down and said, hey, what are you doing?

So you're into television and AI. Do we want to brag a little bit about the CNN wall of voting?

Well, only because … Voting map. Only because I have a little bit of broadcast history with the CNN magic wall.

That's it, magic wall.

But unlike you guys, I've always been in front of the camera. Not that I was on CNN, but we do these Bill Gates keynotes. And there are 250 people dressed in black running around screaming at each other behind the curtain. And I always thought like, oh, what a waste of money those people are. What do those people do?

Now that I had to live on the production side of a broadcast, my God, there are so many moving parts and so much points of failure, which makes software so reliable. Now, I used to think like, oh my God, 100% uptime, 100% SLAs on live TV, that's impossible. Well, it's a lot harder in broadcast when you're you know, that one production company's in Nova Scotia and the other one's in Florida and then we're all in New Mexico in the studio and they're syncing voices together and all that.

Oh my God, it was complicated.

So you're talking about Gopher Hole Productions? Is this your newest venture?

Yeah, sorry, I skipped forward. So yeah, I've had a long, fun career but I just, before we go there, I just got, I was laughing at you guys talking about Billy Hollis because About 20 years ago, I told Billy Hollis and Uthal and all those guys, you know, within a decade, you guys are going to be obsolete.

Nice.

They, of course, reacted violently. I was a little off. It was about 20 years that they became obsolete, these ivory tower software architect people. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I brought it up on the show once that Pretty someday soon, and I was still in the old studio, so this was probably 15 years ago, maybe. Someday soon, you're going to be able to just walk up to a computer, have a conversation with it, and out will spit an enterprise application. And I remember Richard goes, nah, that's a long way.

Off, dude. Yeah, yeah. And then, holy crap. Even Richard is wrong every once in a while.

Yeah. Seems closer now, but depends on how you define it.

Well, that's another part of my story, which we should talk about, is stumbling bass-ackwards into M365 Copilot Pro, as opposed to going straight to Claude for coding this thing. But so, we should probably back up. You know, I retired for the second time. The queen said, you need to get back to work. And then randomly, this amazing guy, Paul Sidlow, this creative ex-internology customer, I think he built the ATM software. Not ATM, the fast food kiosk software.

Oh, yeah.

Everybody, McDonald's. This is a long time ago, too. We built that for him. He's won 16 Emmys. He's won Academy Awards. He's worked five Super Bowls. for Olympics. He is, you know, a talented, creative guy. And he, he tracked me down through LinkedIn, I think, ironically, and I say ironically, because I'm overwhelmed by LinkedIn messages, and it just doesn't seem very functional. But he tracked me down and says, Hey, what are you doing? I got this idea to do an AI avatar in a live golf broadcast. My first reaction was, boy, that sounds stupid. Who would want that?

You know, Jim Nance, I don't know how much you know about golf, but Jim Nance is a god in the broadcast world and you're not going to replace Jim Nance or any of these these great golf announcers um but the more i got to listening to him the more i thought how you know how do i turn this guy down you know his resume is just amazing and he gave me a good deal too and and um.

I'm like, what the hell?

I'll jump back into technology in a really hard way, like coding again, which I haven't done in a long time because I've always been the boss. And yeah, so cut to the chase. We did a live broadcast, the live avatar tech that I built by myself, if you can believe that. Well, with tremendous help from M365 Copilot Pro, which is the story in itself.

Wow.

It was wildly successful. The software was wildly successful. The negative reaction of the people who love golf and are traditional was unbelievable. Over 800 million media impressions. Yeah, I don't even know what a media impression is, but that's a lot. Yeah, and mostly were negative from these golf people. Yeah, wow.

over what it was over a hundred live tv um shots of the thing uh it was on fox and prime time you know all this stuff because it was so controversially and then one of the big guns in the company is really good at this social media thing i barely understand yeah so um well.

I don't know if you know this but most americans are really down on a high At least the ones that aren't using it, that's for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

And down on data centers, and it's a big, hot topic.

Yeah, and then there's the anthropomorphism thing that we keep, we as a humanity, not me, God help me, but keep attaching humanistic traits. So when anybody calls this avatar he or things like that, I always correct it. you know, the machine or it.

Yeah.

And really all I built was a tool that is kind of like the Wikipedia of golf. It just happens to have an avatar and that the broadcasters and the live broadcasters were big guns to note the brigade. The third, who's the current, um, Ben Crenshaw award winner, which is the biggest award in golf. He's a pro golfer, you know, Tiger Woods, roommate, Stanford. So amazing guy. And then Ryan Burr, who is ESPN and golf channel. So, they used this avatar.

You know, if they didn't know the answer, they'd go the avatar. And then.

So, tell me this. Wait, I got to understand how this works.

Okay.

So, who, can anybody ask the avatar a question interactively online and then it will display the answer? Like, who uses it?

Yeah, yeah. I could, if you want, I think. It was broken this morning because I broke it. I think I could demo it live if you want. You can ask it whatever you want.

Well, it's, we're not video, but. But is that basically how it works? Is that the people watching can ask it questions?

No, no, no. This is a broadcast partner of the two people doing the broadcast.

Okay.

So you see three of them on live broadcast.

Okay.

Well, you know, the production people bring up the Avatar broadcast. when, when the broad, the real humans talk to it.

I see.

And then they interact, they interact with it back and forth, you know, like.

Hey, okay.

What is the course record on this course? You know, and that.

Right. So if the two guys don't know the answer to something, the avatar will pop up and set them straight.

So to speak.

That's basically what I thought the purpose of the thing would be.

Color commentary.

What it, what it, yeah. Expert level commentary that, you know, a human just couldn't memorize all that golf. You know, there's no Richards out there in golf.

That's your next job, Richard.

But honestly, because Nota Beghe had to play in this tournament, the other broadcaster, Ryan Burr from ESPN, had to go by himself with the avatar for an entire round of golf. And he ended up just using it as a broadcast partner. Right. You know, just say, hey, what do you think of that shot? You know, blah, blah, blah. And honestly, those people are very talented, those broadcaster people.

Yeah.

I could never, ever do that. I'm just not talented enough to do that.

Just to fill the air, just to have a comment, to watch the game and interact like that. It's not simple.

So as long as we're still talking about the solution, the most interesting problem we had was when Ryan Burr asked the Avatar, a question that it didn't know.

Oh, wow.

And, and, you know, I'm back with all the production people. And I've built this producer console software. So you could, you know, live interjecting with data and all this type of stuff.

So you can see the stream of the back end of this thing?

Oh, yeah, yeah, I had to build all that set the transcript, because, you know, in the human language, we have all this, these weird phonetics problems that we don't even realize, like, You guys are not made to know this, but one of the most famous golfers in the world is named Jack Nicklaus. That's how he says his name, Jack Nicklaus.

Yeah, sure.

Never heard of him.

Well, it's spelled Jack Nicklaus.

Right.

And the avatar doesn't know that.

Yeah, yeah.

So you ask him, hey, tell me about Jack Nicklaus on this course. And he'll go, I don't know who you're talking about. They'll say it in a funny way. You know, all that, the prompt engineering is intense, really intense.

You want to hear a funny story? I tried calling Rocky Latka. I tried calling Rocky Latka with Siri. Siri, call Rocky Latka. I don't have a... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because we have all these phonetics. So I had to build a phonetics feature that basically maps. Anyways, it asked this question. The avatar said something funny like, you know, I'm sorry, I don't know. And it was a relevant question. It's like, what's the course record here at Turtleback Mountain Golf Course? And it said, I'm sorry, I don't have that access in my database. Give me a few minutes and I'll figure it out. And I'm scratching my head like, that is such an obvious question because the RAG pipeline is tight. The guard railing is so tight. Most of its information is resident in the knowledge chunks. It rarely has to go to an LLM for an answer. So I'm looking and it went out to the LLM and

it didn't get an answer. Well, guess what? It's not recorded anywhere on the internet.

Oh man.

Wow.

Randomly.

So the producer comes running into the room, points at me and says, run with me, get a piece of paper. And as we're running about 200 yards, we're going to the pro shop where the only human on the planet has the answer to this question. And it's this guy that works in the pro shop. He's worked there for like 35 years. I essentially have a napkin and a pencil.

And he's like- The name is Krusty.

You know, Jimmy Smith, 1973 with a score of 59 at a PGA blah, blah, blah. And I run back in there, type it into the broadcast intelligence feature, the hot thing that I built. They come back from commercial and Ryan, the broadcaster guy, goes right back to the Avatar. Hey! And he's trying to mock the Avatar. Hey, did you figure it out? Yes, I did. It was at 61 by Jimmy Smith in 19... So that I found super interesting.

Everything we want to know isn't on the interweb. And guess what? We have hallucinations for a reason because there's a lot of shit that is not right on the internet. Yeah.

Yeah.

You got to find the old guy in the pro shop who knows everything.

But also the, the tool is built to always answer even with low confidence. So. Right.

Yeah. And, and I can't, you know, I casually mentioned that, you know, this thing is contained. I use a gem. I can't remember the, the version of Gemma I use, which gets back to another interesting story, but that's the fastest one. And I knew that, you know, I didn't need something really rich in an LLM because- Yeah, yeah.

The scope's narrow.

You know, everything is so contained. And, you know, the golf avatar who has a name called Duff Foreman- You know, if you ask it, you know, hey, why do you hate Catholics? You know, it's just, it's not going to answer that question.

Right.

You know, it's always going to.

Because you're basically, this is live, right? Like you're maybe a seven second delay.

No, yeah, it's live. It's live. And if it answers that question, why it hates Catholics, I can say that because I'm a Catholic. Then, you know, it's over. You're dead. You're doomed. You're never working in this business again.

But an interesting point that you've got to resist the way these LLMs were designed in the first place, which is don't answer stuff you don't know.

Yeah, exactly.

Or it's out of scope.

So, which leads to, you know, the way this grows into an enterprise app for different sports and things like that, which makes it more and more and more complicated, you know. But it's still super fun work.

Absolutely.

Hey, this seems like a good place to take a break. We'll be right back after these very important messages.

And we're back. It's. NET Rocks! I'm Richard Campbell. Let's call Frank.

Yo.

Talking to our friend Tim Huckabee about Dove Foreman. Dove Foreman, what a name. So you said Gemini, like what's behind this thing? How'd you build this?

Well, That's fairly interesting because I mentioned Paul Sidlow and the genius creative that he is. And now I joke with him like, you know, I just love working with creatives until I don't. You've been there in your career, right? These are, they're such out of the box thinkers and like, oh my, no, we can't do that. No, that's, you know.

So I inherited the avatar technology that he built the prototype on. There's this company, and there's lots of, not lots, there's a handful of good companies that do avatar tech. The one I inherited is called Lemon Slice. And they have an amazing prototyping capability. And I thought, ah, well, just, go live with this prototype and I won't have to do anything. But as I got to building software, it became evident we needed a piece of software. Anyway, so I inherited the avatar, its voice, what it looks like.

Everyone thinks it's dressed up in a Scottish way.

It's very Scottish looking, my goodness, yes.

And there's the joke because there's no Scottish language tech. available it's all english so it's speaking a version of you know england and everyone thinks it's scottish so a lot of the critique that that we got was oh you're you know you're mocking scottish people well guess what it's it's an english it's an english accent.

We're separated by a common language Yeah.

Especially Scottish. Goodness knows.

Oh, my God. And here's where, as it relates to. NET and. NET Rocks, here's where it gets interesting. These lemon slice people have become an amazing partner and they have awesome tech. And I was going back and forth with them and they said, well, you know, we have a sample app. It's similar to something you're going to do.

You know, no one's ever done live broadcast with our tech. It's mostly, you know, tech support avatars, right? This is one of those companies you talk to all the time when you do tech support at some website. So they gave me this sample app, and I started staring at it, and it looked like Latin. It wasn't. NET MAUI. It was freaking Python. Oh, wow.

Of course it was.

And there's this other language in there, and I couldn't tell what the hell it was. It's called TypeScript.

Oh, no. It kind of looks like JavaScript, but not really.

My first reaction is, holy shit, I got to convert this to. NET because otherwise I'm doomed. And that was my plan. You know, I'll just run it through Clot or whatever and get it converted and work from there. But I only had like four weeks from, you know, this prototype to production.

Sure.

And I didn't think I was going to make it. Thank God I did. So I just started running with Copa with, um, um, um, um, um, Claude code.

No.

Um, with, uh, uh, the language I don't know, which I'm drawing Python, Python, the old guy's moment right there. Yeah. So I started running with Python, but, um, I had talked to Andrew Bruss and I assume you've had Andrew on the show.

Yeah.

And he's a data guy. So of course he has to breathe Python.

Yeah. But he knows a lot about LLMs and I don't, you know, I use the one I use and that's what it was. And he started lecturing me on the different ways, different LLMs and their versions. You know, some questions are good for some, some questions are good for another. And I got to talk to him and it was overwhelming, but it was wildly valuable. And I should also mention Matthew Renzi. And if you've not had him on the show, you need to have him on the show. He's the one that taught me about open claw and avatars and self-deterministic agents. And this is not that, right? This doesn't run amok by itself. It's strictly guided. So I put two and two together. And at the same time, Microsoft Copilot Pro, which is the fancy version that I get,

came out with model routing. And they didn't do a big fanfare. In fact, I don't even think they announced it. But if you go in the configuration of Copilot right now, you can actually direct it to Claude. Or GPT or some others. Or you can say, just decide by yourself where's the best place to get this answer.

Wow, that's interesting.

Model routing tech. You know, I've been hearing about it for years from Microsoft, but I'd never seen it implemented. It was always like you were talking about before. It was always smoke and mirrors, you know, demo tech.

Yeah.

So I thought, what the hell?

Let me run with this in Copilot. And... You know, it was obvious that when I had a question about code, it was going off the clock, you know, and it was generating code and I would be asking it. But what was most interesting, for me at least, this is probably old half for you guys, but what was most interesting is I was more concerned about the software architecture of the thing.

Sure.

You know, because I have no experience in this, especially on the Python side of things. And it became like a consultant to me. I mean, a legitimate consultant. And it wasn't Microsoft jaded. Every once in a while, you would say something like, you should use the Microsoft blah, blah, blah, in so many words. But it was wildly honest about what I should do in software architecture with the assumptions that I gave it. Hey, I got the avatar's lemon slice, so we need to work backwards from there. Okay, so that went wildly well. Not perfect. ironically, a co-pilot has a limitation on how long the chat can be.

Right. Right.

Or you knew that? I didn't know that.

Context window.

I got screwed by that. You know, I'm hot and heavy, you know, in the middle of the project and it says, Oh, we're done. Start a new conversation.

Yeah. Like, wait, what?

Are you going to remember the last two weeks?

The number of tokens in your context. And you can, you can adjust it on some things. I'm, I'm running a local model. And I have 128K tokens in my context window. And that's working really well.

Okay, well, I got burned by that. So there's that weakness. And there's some annoying just app-level UI behaviors of Copilot. Like the way it scrolls and the way you ask it a question, it'll jump like a mile up the thing. But the more I kept going, the more I kept saying to myself, I'm going to pull this off in Copilot.

And I did. I freaking did. You know, it wasn't perfect. Probably would have been a lot easier in Cloud. Or GitHub Copilot, in all honesty. But I did, and I found that wildly interesting.

Yeah, I know. Because, of course, I presume you're reusing GitHub Copilot just because that's the dev tool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Visual Studio integration, all that type of stuff. Yeah.

I also did this little trick, Tim, which is I created a repo, a private repo on GitHub that contains memories that I want Copilot to refer to later. And I know it does some of that itself in compaction and all of that, but I basically have in my copilot instructions md file which is sort of the system prompt when you're using copilot i tell it to check that and that anytime uh we're doing a task before you do a task write it and you know publish it up there so you know what you're working on so if something happens and the context blows up or i got to start over again i can just say you know it's right there in the Copilot instructions and it can figure it out. Okay.

You're talking about GitHub Copilot, right?

Copilot CLI. GitHub Copilot.

I'm talking about M365 Copilot. M365 Copilot. Oh.

Yes.

That's a different story.

If I could fix. Never mind.

No, Doug.

The way you fixed it, if I could fix it in M365 Copilot, or now that I'm done and I proved it, just move over to M365 or move over to GitHub Copilot.

Right, right, right.

Which is probably the logical thing to do.

Yeah. Yeah.

So the, the other funny thing about this old guy with gray hair is, you know, I was really worried about, you know, putting the stuff, you know, into production, just normal DevOps stuff. Sure. It seems so complicated and so riddled with failure. You know, I do, I do pulls and pushes and, and sometimes it wouldn't work and, you know, I couldn't understand. And then the, the, the, M365 co-pilot's trying to explain it and I don't get it. It just seems so fragile. So, and I had so little time that, you know, I was starting to really to panic about just getting it into production. And at one point I said to the M365 co-pilot, like, I'm afraid to push this into production because, you know, we're an

hour to broadcast and I just can't break the whole thing. And it comes back and essentially says, oh, don't worry, it's just Python that we made changes to. Okay. And I'm like, what? What do you mean? And it's like, well, Python's interpreted. And I'm like, oh, my God, I forgot. I totally forgot. We're not even compiling. Like, what a world.

What a world this is. That Moore's Law has gone like this. We don't even compile anymore.

It's VB all over again.

Yeah.

Or Fox.

What?

Fox Base. We're Fox Base again. Yeah. Which I found so amusing that we've got so much power in our CPUs that we just don't need to compile them. anymore you know we can run these interpretive languages that are so high level and so forgiving um so it's it's been a long.

Road oh it worked out okay for javascript yeah so it's.

Been a long road since you know working on you know a server product at microsoft where there's 2500 people on a team to an old guy by himself building broadcast level software in in six weeks what a world huh Yeah, what a world. Yeah.

What a world indeed. But now, let's cut back to the beginning of the story, which is, and then it ships and people hate it? Yeah, well... Like, it sounds like the announcers liked it, like it was a useful tool, it was a foil, right?

But there, you know, that Payne Stewart award is an award in traditions of golf. So, Nota put his neck out. Nota Begay put his neck out to do this.

Sure.

But, you know, once... You know, it's like almost anything AI. And, you know, I'm not a trendy AI guy, right? You guys know this. I've been building AI apps for almost 20 years. This is just a tool. I keep telling people, this is just a tool. We're not replacing broadcasters. It's just like the cancer tools we used to build at Internology, you know, that looked at an x-ray.

Sure. I mean, this could have been a person reading a screen, too.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the funny thing is golf has a tradition of breaking tradition. Interesting. Like over the last hundred years, I read this impassioned speech by one of the founders of this company about all the things that happened in golf over the last hundred years. One of them is Callaway came out with the big Burford driver and it was this huge thing. And everyone said that would be a fad. And everyone hated it because they said it was cheating.

Well, guess what?

We use that. Every driver is huge right now, right? Or they went from persimmon to steel shafts back in the 30s or 40s. And everyone said that was cheating. And one of the golfers, who was it? Sam Snead or somebody like that. invented the pitching wedge. Believe it or not, they were playing golf without a pitching wedge or a sand wedge, which is the.

Really- The really high angle, yeah.

Right? And everyone said that was cheating. Well, now those are the dominant clubs in a professional golfer's bag.

It wasn't breaking tradition. Wasn't it Tiger Woods who broke tradition over his wife's head, I think? Was he the guy?

I don't remember.

He's not in the news anymore. Phil Mickelson is for all- For very similar reasons.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, it's just, you know, humans are humans. And, you know, there's so much hate on the internet. Some of it is really amusing. The ignorance is spectacular.

Right. But you wonder if this does this stick.

Well, if you're asking me to predict, not only golf, but, you know, this is going to stick throughout sports. We already have AI actors and actresses, which I'm not so I'm not really pop culture, so I don't really feel like I have expertise to weigh in.

Yeah, I guess the question is, does the interaction get better? Like, do people enjoy the show more because they have access to more information about the game?

Well, if history proves true, then this will become the predominant tech in a golf broadcast. By the way, we don't just do the avatar. All that swing technology with the really high-speed cameras that analyze the swing, that's all part of it. Um, one of the tricky things in golf is doing the, you know, pretend like there's a, um, a drone following the ball above the golfer.

Yeah.

Well with AI, you know, you could go all the way around the golfer on the course where it appears that way.

Right.

In AI and analyze the swing from a 360 view. So we do a lot of that super high-tech stuff too.

Speaking of that, I was at a football game on Sunday in Philadelphia, and I noticed Go Eagles! Yeah, I noticed there was a drone, but it was not making noise and it was just sitting there. And it turns out that it's connected to four different cables at You know, the four corners of the stadium.

That's a normal football technology.

Yeah, I had no idea because I'm not a.

That's prevalent these days.

Yeah, yeah.

And guess what? The software to control it was written in Delphi.

Hilarious.

Oh, that's awesome.

You know it's been around for a while.

That's awesome. Did you tell Lino and... And all our other buddies that work on Delphi. Yeah, right.

Mark Miller.

But when they use that camera for a kickoff and they chase the ball, like that effect is so powerful. And I was just reading that. They're going to use this 3D modeling software to be able to do a follow cam on a golf ball. Wow. So they simulate as if a drone could fly fast enough and precise enough to chase behind a golf ball in flight.

Which brings me to another resistance of golf. When they first broadcast television live in golf, everyone hated it because the cameras were so huge.

Right.

That they basically had to stay at the first hole.

Yeah.

It's useless. They couldn't follow the ball in flight or any of this stuff you're talking about now. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, there's an argument that the demographic that isn't us- loves this stuff yeah just loves it and it's the get off my lawn old guy demographic that hates this new fangled yeah new fangled.

Yeah that moment it's like we didn't build it for you like part of this is keeping the sport relevant to a different generation.

I have a relevant story here it's quick um no go for it I have a friend who I met in junior high school and now he lives like literally around the corner from me okay And he's a musician. Well, not by trade, but he's an amateur musician. And he wrote a bunch of songs and uploaded demos to some AI. And I don't know which one it was. But basically, it was something where he just took him playing a guitar and singing, uploaded it, and told, with prompts, the AI to create polished, production-ready songs with singers and guitar riffs and bass and drums and steel guitar and all this stuff. He comes to one of my gigs and he says, I've got these songs and they sound good, but I want to redo the whole album with real musicians.

At first, I'm thinking, that's going to be very expensive. He's not a rich guy. He's not going to drop 20 grand to make an album, which is probably what it would cost from my time and musicians and everything. So, and his reasoning, the reason that he didn't want to just publish what he had, which by the way, sounds pretty freaking good. It sounds good, but the kickback on the, you know, as soon as anybody knows that it's AI, They don't want anything to do with it, even if it's actually good.

Yeah.

Isn't that interesting?

It is. I'm not so sure media has helped in this anti-AI thing, you know, because AI is still saving lives.

And the industry hasn't helped itself. This marketing strategy through catastrophization is not helping.

But you mentioned the money thing, and I think that's important to point out in this. This was just like a proof of concept to do it at a PGA sectional tournament, not like the Masters, not like the US Open. And before the PGA picks it up full-time in the big tournaments, Really, if you think it through, the right way to do this is on the edge with $ 2 million of NVIDIA hardware.

Right.

You know, as opposed to that trip through the satellite dish up to the internet back. Because there's latencies. When you do that, remember we're talking about the laws of physics earlier before we came on here, you know, the avatar, the avatar tech can be lightning quick. If it has that I built, if it has a really nice internet connection.

Mm-hmm.

If not, there's that lag. It's almost like that CNN.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I was wondering, for broadcast, like, were you really depending on the internet? Shouldn't you try to go all local model?

Exactly. Yeah.

Sounds like you have a local model.

That's my– well, yeah, just the model. But the future of this thing, to do it right, is on the edge. And, you know, we talked about that before we came on air, too.

Mm-hmm.

It's just going to take a lot of money of Nvidia to pull that off.

Right. I think it'll get cheaper too.

You know, and and Nvidia is lined up as a partner of ours. They don't typically give away $ 2 million for free, but, um, you know, that, that's the right way to do this. Um, uh, it just, this is new for production people too. So the whole way they set it up, and of course they wouldn't listen to me or us with the Nova Scotia to, uh, Florida back to New Mexico thing. It just didn't make sense at all, you know, and then stitching it all together, you know, God knows where they did that and then sending it back to the feed. Um, so, you know, there's, there's a lot of room for improvement, you know, but, but the funny thing was that the software ran great.

Yeah.

Like, like a hundred percent uptime in an interpreted language. Who knew? Yeah.

Yeah, that wasn't the limiting factor.

Right.

But one would argue if you had more time, there is more optimal code approaches.

Oh, God, yeah. There's so many. The feature backlog list I've built for this thing. You know, I've got to obviously add real developers to this company in short order.

Yeah.

And the feature bank.

I'm used to you building prototypes, just not by yourself, Tim. Like that's weird.

I wasn't by myself. I'm like a Microsoft commercial. I wasn't by myself. I had M365 Copilot.

So, uh, seems like we're coming to the pointy end of the story. Is there anything else that you wanted to say before we hang it up?

Well, you know, I think it, As I look back on the way it went down, it was just so fun to be a developer again. It's still such a great occupation. And I just, you know, the world's telling us that developers are going to be eliminated. I just don't see it. I just don't see it. This thing is intricate. intricate list of steps to pull this off you know it's not just the avatar there's the orchestrator which is live kit you know that that orchestrates the whole thing it's not a one-to-one you could run 200 these avatars at a time which which means you have to build enterprise features right for it um The text-to-speech, speech-to-text engine, I chose Cartesia just because I couldn't find a better voice to match. But this is all built

so you could swap in, in and out tech. It's built like enterprise software. And the takeaway should not be for me that, hey, I built this in six weeks. It's that You really still have to pay attention to building enterprise-level software.

Yep. Sure.

You cannot hack this type of stuff and expect it not to fail. Right. Yeah, which was honestly super fun and very challenging.

This also speaks to this is an immature market. There's so many products. Like, everybody's experimenting.

Yeah.

You've got to kind of assemble from the tool suite. There's no clear path forward on any of this yet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And also, there's a whole rash of new companies that are– that are AI on the, you know, in the backend. And it seems to me just run by one or two people, you know, that promise all these great things. And the ads for these companies are showing up on TV and streaming platforms.

But don't you feel like in the 20 or 30 years we've been doing this, that we still have the same problem that the Silicon Valley and other venture capital or financing companies have? are still throwing a lot of money at stuff they shouldn't. Yeah. Don't you feel like that?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Some of these companies that get funded for these gazillions of dollars, I scratch my head like, what?

Right. It's an outdated model.

It is.

It is. Yeah. And it's definitely this new wave has shown how outdated the model really is.

Yeah.

It makes me wonder what the next one's going to look like, just because I don't think we're going to do it this way again.

Hysteria.

Yeah. This crazy hype is not useful.

Yeah.

Well, that and Microsoft naming everything Copilot.

Oh, God.

Can we stop with that? How about that? That would be a good one to not do again.

How many times have they done that, though?

Everything's Copilot.

But this time, I think it really burnt them. Like that's the only thing I would say is like more.

Well, Carl and I during.

Yeah. Look at the confusion. Right.

Totally. A hundred percent. That's why I bring it up.

I heard them three 65 copilot earlier in the show. And then you just started saying copilot copilot. And in my head, I'm thinking the CLI. Yeah.

You know, and if you really stay on the Microsoft stack, not that I totally do anymore, but all the copilots, you know, are different. Like as your copilot is terrible, in my opinion, in my personal opinion, If you're in the Azure portal and use that copilot thing, it's useless.

Yeah, yeah, it's bad.

It's absolutely, and now I'm talking.

The SRE copilot is impressive, impressive enough they've stopped calling it a copilot. Like they're now called the SRE agent. Like you can see the different teams are abandoning the brand because it's so tainted.

The Excel copilot is.

It's amazing. It's astonishing.

Awesome.

It is.

I will never hack a spreadsheet again.

I think it's Claude Cowork under the hood, which is why it's so good. And once again, this is why the name is so bad.

What a world we live in.

What a world, friend. What a world.

My wife uses Windows 11 Copilot.

I don't even know what that is.

It's just an agent that's built into Windows that can help you with stuff.

Like, I can't print? I can't print. The internet is down? Is that what you give it?

She uses it to extract information from PDF files and turn them into Excel spreadsheets, that.

Kind of thing.

Fair enough.

Yeah.

So. Say hi to Kelly. Yeah.

And, and to your Kelly as well. Thank you very much, Tim Huckabee from.

Super fun boys.

Go for whole productions now.

Yeah.

Good luck in the future.

Yeah. The next one should be interesting.

Hockey.

Okay. Right?

We still have to build that Star Trek holodeck.

There's that.

There's that, too, that we've been talking about for 30 years. Yep. All right, man.

Thanks very much.

Later, boys.

Always a pleasure.

Me, too.

And we'll talk to you, dear listener, next time on.

NET Rocks!

NET Rocks!. NET Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Plop Studios, a full-service audio, video, and post-production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and, of course, in the cloud. Online at pwop.com. Visit our website at dotnetrocks.com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one. recorded in September 2002. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code. See you next time.

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