E321- Toxicologist Reveals What’s Killing Dogs- Dr. Renee Schmid

[SPEAKER_01]: What is the most common thing dogs are getting poisoned with today? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so every year we do a top 10 toxin list and we pull what our top 10 calls that we receive. [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean they're the most toxic. [SPEAKER_00]: It means the most common. [SPEAKER_00]: And so let's...

[SPEAKER_01]: let's get started. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for hopping on. [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you give an introduction to people who are listening and watching about who you are and what you do? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you bet. [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everybody. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dr. Renee Schmidt. [SPEAKER_00]: I am the Director of Veterinary Medicine and one of the senior veterinary toxicologists for pet poison help line.

[SPEAKER_00]: Pet Poison Helpline is a 24, 7, 365 day year animal poison center and we are in our 23rd year of business and our goal is to work with pedowners pet parents as well as veterinary professionals on helping to determine if an animal got into something that could be toxic to them and then also helping the veterinary professionals giving them step by step guidance on how to treat that particular exposure.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot, so I know that you went to Kansas State, right, for college. [SPEAKER_01]: I did. [SPEAKER_01]: So where are you based out of now? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so we're based out of Bloomington, Minnesota, which is just one of the suburbs of the Twin Cities, so if anybody who's ever traveled to the Mall of America, I always used that as kind of the landbark, we're we're not far from there at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the only I think the only thing I know about Mall of America is I think in mighty ducks at some point there was like a roller coaster inside of Mall that was. [SPEAKER_01]: that was on there so how did you how did you transition from I know that you're kind of a specialist now right and you have to do extra education for that what made you transfer into like the toxic and and and and the poison type of stuff from just normal veterinary care.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So the the unexciting answer is I really kind of fell into it. [SPEAKER_00]: So I was looking for something different. [SPEAKER_00]: I had been in general practice. [SPEAKER_00]: I had been in emergency practice. [SPEAKER_00]: I had been in a university setting before and I was raising a family and just kind of looking for something different to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was a little bit kind of tired of the hands-on clinical practice. [SPEAKER_00]: And just fell into found that pet poison help line had an opening and I looked at kind of the requirements with a job entailed and I thought gosh, this is really something that could put all of my years of experiences together and found that I had a love for toxicology that I didn't really realize.

[SPEAKER_00]: We certainly in practice, I certainly dealt with poison to animals, but it was, you know, that wasn't the main thing you had him here and there. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'd been a little bit familiar with the process, but then I found when I was able to to get this job 13 years ago, I thought, wow, this is actually it ignited a spark that I didn't know I had.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's it's extremely rewarding. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a lot of the the ER veterinarians that I speak with where it's like high risk high reward type of thing I would assume I don't know that's that's why I'm super excited to have you on and so when people call in let's say they're dog [SPEAKER_01]: God forbid it gets into something, and maybe it's, maybe it's urgent, maybe it's lethal, maybe it's not, maybe they're just sick, maybe they're lefthargic, maybe they're vomiting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do they actually talk to you or is there a triage kind of system that works like that? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great question because a lot of people don't necessarily understand the process and when they call in, they are panicked, they're nervous, they're scared, they're afraid that maybe what their pet got into is like you said, going to be fatal to them and they don't know what to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so as a as a pet parent pet owner when you call in, you talk with one of our veterinary technicians. [SPEAKER_00]: And so all of our staff are heavily trained in toxicology and so our veterinary technicians talk with the the pet owner the pet parent and gather all sorts of information about the exposure because it isn't necessarily just about what it is they got into.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is how much, how the type of dog that it is, the timing that it was, you know, there's a lot of different factors that come into play and so they gather all of that information and then they make that assessment, yes, this is going to be a concern or know this is not going to be a concern.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I always like to point out that even when we say this is not going to be a concern, that was not a call wasted. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a, that's a good thing. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good thing and it certainly still takes training and medical knowledge to, in order to make that assessment.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then. [SPEAKER_00]: If this is something concerning where your veterinarian needs to call for treatment advice those calls are taken by our veterinarians are boarded toxicologists and so we talk with the clinics directly and we will give them step by step guidance as to what we expect to happen how long this is expected to take.

[SPEAKER_00]: What specific treatments we recommend and a lot of people are surprised by that because they will tell their veterinarian. [SPEAKER_00]: Why do I have to call? [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you need help with these types of things? [SPEAKER_00]: Why can't you just, you know, handle it? [SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is that there are thousands upon thousands of different things that can poison your pet.

[SPEAKER_00]: and a veterinarian in practice, general practice, and even emergency work, doesn't necessarily know about those specific things. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very specific, a very funneled process, and so they seek us for guidance, and that allows them to work with us to get your pet back home with the family as it needs to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: The, so the, I think I, I think I missed a part where if somebody calls in, where, where do you step into communicate with their, their veterinarian? [SPEAKER_01]: Like if a, if a client were to call in and say, hey, my dog just ate this. [SPEAKER_01]: Where does their veterinarian step in?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that something that they bring? [SPEAKER_01]: They rush their dog to the ER. [SPEAKER_01]: They rush their dog to the vet. [SPEAKER_01]: Then you, or one of your colleagues, that's actually board sort of, board sort of a, uh, veterinarian that we'll talk to them. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, I did skip that part.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you didn't miss it. [SPEAKER_00]: I skipped it. [SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens in is if that, you know, in that initial call, if we find that this is going to be a concern that needs to go the pet needs to go to the veterinarian for treatment. [SPEAKER_00]: And in reality, [SPEAKER_00]: There are not a lot of things that pet owners can do at home for their pet if they've been poisoned.

[SPEAKER_00]: They often need additional more aggressive care and management. [SPEAKER_00]: So if that's the case, every call that comes in has a case number. [SPEAKER_00]: So we provide that to the owner and then they go to their veterinarian and the veterinary clinic then calls us. [SPEAKER_00]: And they talk then with our veterinarians.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I got it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: No, that makes sense because I would just assume, and again, me just being a dog owner, I would assume that, okay, my dog had had eaten something because I bet that there's a, you know, to me, there would be two two separate cases. [SPEAKER_01]: There would be somebody who knows exactly what the dog ate and now they're panic because they read online or they've always been told that that's bad or [SPEAKER_01]: There's a dog owner where their dog is acting really funky, lithorgic, weird, vomiting, et cetera, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, like, is that the case here? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it kind of like splitting those two different types of clients? [SPEAKER_00]: It is and then it also it also goes on to a third way where they saw they animal get into something that they don't know what it was maybe they were at a public place name they're at a park or maybe they're at a friend's house or you know what have you and they saw the dog been down start eating something they saw them swallow it but now they have no idea what it was.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we can help in those instances of saying, okay, let's see what are some things that are kind of common in certain areas that maybe we can help with. [SPEAKER_00]: Or in the instance where you mentioned that they, they're just not feeling well. [SPEAKER_00]: They're not, you know, something's off.

[SPEAKER_00]: They've been vomiting or having diarrhea for hours and hours or they're walking unsteadily. [SPEAKER_00]: We can start going through the household. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know, have they been outside the house today? [SPEAKER_00]: anything in that environment that potentially could have gotten into.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are there any medications or supplements in your household? [SPEAKER_00]: Are there any foods like xylitol containing products? [SPEAKER_00]: Anything like that that we can are specialists and can say, okay, these are the signs your pets having, what are some things we should look for that may cause those same signs?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we certainly have the animals that the pet owners that call in and say, I know what my dog got into. [SPEAKER_00]: I know how much they got into. [SPEAKER_00]: I know what it happened. [SPEAKER_00]: And we'd like to say that's the majority of the time, but not always. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think so how many just to give me context? [SPEAKER_01]: How many calls do you guys typically get? [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're 24, 7, 365. [SPEAKER_01]: How many calls do you guys get on average per day? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So we received hundreds of thousands of calls per year.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's the daily fluctuation and that we say there's seasons of toxicology. [SPEAKER_00]: So holidays we always have an uptick in calls because of I think part of human nature where we kind of get off of our schedule and our routine. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we may leave things out a little bit more frequently or there's just more things that are out in about.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: When I say hundreds of thousands of calls, that's what we receive and not every owner calls us. [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes, you know, they can also certainly call their veterinarian first. [SPEAKER_00]: In some veterinarians, don't need our guidance. [SPEAKER_00]: So I can only imagine there's millions of exposures that are happening to our pets every year.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, dogs are, I'm cats. [SPEAKER_01]: Dogs are dogs. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think cats are a little bit more intelligent sometimes and suspicious of certain things where dogs are, they kind of think what they're nose and they're always thinking about what their next meal is and so they're eating whatever and a lot of things as you probably know, I would assume, they're eating things that are intended for us to be eating.

[SPEAKER_01]: That are yummy and good and [SPEAKER_01]: tasty and then the dogs, you know, get that thing. [SPEAKER_01]: This is good. [SPEAKER_01]: So what is the most common thing dog owners are being poisoned? [SPEAKER_01]: Let me rephrase. [SPEAKER_01]: What is the most common thing? [SPEAKER_01]: Dogs are getting poisoned with today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so every year we do a top 10 toxin list and we pull what our top 10 calls that we receive as it means they're the most toxic. [SPEAKER_00]: It means the most common. [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's chocolate and chocolate wins by a landslide. [SPEAKER_00]: I always say it takes the chocolate cake because.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's really the second comes in at grapes and raisins and it's not even a close second. [SPEAKER_00]: So chocolate has been our number one toxin in the 13 years. [SPEAKER_00]: I've been here. [SPEAKER_00]: I suspect it was the 10 years before that as well. [SPEAKER_00]: And it makes sense, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: My household has chocolate in it. [SPEAKER_00]: We have chocolate that we have chocolate that we bake with. [SPEAKER_00]: We have chocolate that we give as gifts. [SPEAKER_00]: We have chocolate that we are given as gifts. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's common in many many households. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so I've always, you know, again, as a dog owner, I've always just grown up like your dog eats chocolate and that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's all over. [SPEAKER_01]: It's done. [SPEAKER_01]: And then as I've, you know, educated myself and has become more curious about things like this from what I understand, [SPEAKER_01]: It's more about the type of chocolate and then how much in the size of the dog, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So from what I've been told, it's not just every chocolate, I was told, and obviously you're going to be able to correct me from wrong, but it's more of the bakers chocolate and the dark chocolate that is like 100% cocoa powder that is more dangerous to dogs, is that correct?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're absolutely right. [SPEAKER_00]: So with chocolate, as you said, chocolate isn't chocolate. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's, it's, there are different types. [SPEAKER_00]: So I like to think of the chocolate that maybe I don't want to eat plain. [SPEAKER_00]: Typically is going to have the higher fee of bromine, which is the toxic component in chocolate.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be your bakers chocolate, your 100% cacao, your cocoa powder. [SPEAKER_00]: And then we go to dark chocolate, which I know there's a lot of different percentages of dark chocolate so that makes a difference as well the larger higher percentage the higher the the a bromine content that more toxic it could be and then we go to milk chocolates and then white chocolate which really has minimal and in there at all so I typically like to use the example of maybe that 10 pound dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: ingested one Hershey kiss. [SPEAKER_00]: Is that going to be problematic to them? [SPEAKER_00]: Probably not. [SPEAKER_00]: They might have some stomach upset. [SPEAKER_00]: There's always risk for pancreatitis, which is an inflammation of pancreas due to fat content, regardless of the amount of chocolate they get into.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then take that same tin pound dog that same size of Hershey kiss equivalent. [SPEAKER_00]: and give that to them in a hundred percent cacao or a baker's chocolate and that certainly could be problematic to them so it definitely depends as you said on the size of the dog and then the type of chocolate that they ingest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, that that makes sense. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's the same thing with, you know, really anything, right? [SPEAKER_01]: A bigger person may be able to eat more drink more and it just depends, you know, on how their body process is it takes it like, you know, a 250 pound rugby player in Germany right now that's drinking [SPEAKER_01]: a leader and leader after beer because it's October fest.

[SPEAKER_01]: My, my, my in-laws are from Germany, and I was actually speaking with them this morning, and I was, you know, doing a little, the little German that I know about October fest, but I, I digress, my point is, is versus, you know, my wife who's 110 pounds so can wet, like, you know, their bodies are going to process that differently, and, and it's the same thing for dogs, that, the bigger the dog, [SPEAKER_01]: I guess the less risk of getting a toxic dose because of their size.

[SPEAKER_01]: So white chocolate doesn't really matter at all because it doesn't have the cacao in it, is that what you said? [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have a very, very low amount of the overall mine in it. [SPEAKER_00]: So it has more cocoa butters in it and it has just a very low amount of the toxic component.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, like you said, the phrase that the phrase [SPEAKER_00]: the the father of toxicology hundreds and hundreds of years ago said that she said, you know, the dose makes the poison. [SPEAKER_00]: And if we remember that, it's absolutely true. [SPEAKER_00]: So an animal, I always try to, I always try to let owners know that, yes, they got into something they shouldn't have.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, is it going to be a concern for them or not? [SPEAKER_00]: And it may not. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's always good [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what is your first line of defense if somebody calls and they say, I don't know what my dog ate, but they're acting really sick and I'm worried. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the first thing we do is we start asking questions, what where have they been lately?

[SPEAKER_00]: What environments have they been in? [SPEAKER_00]: If they've just been at home, they've been outside, you know, they were let outside to the restroom, they were monitored the entire time. [SPEAKER_00]: nothing that they could have gotten into outside, they've been in the home, we say, okay, are there any medications, are there any supplements in the household?

[SPEAKER_00]: Was there any food that was left out? [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any trash that has been looks like it's gotten into? [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any, you know, moldy food that's in the garbage? [SPEAKER_00]: Are there any cleaning products, laundry products that are maybe left out sitting out that the animal could have gotten into?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a bucket of mop water that's there any just really looking at anything at all and if we're in if we scratch everything off the list, then we often will say we really probably need to get you into the veterinarian to take a good look and. [SPEAKER_00]: animals can't speak to us in the way that humans can.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so there are times when veterinarians will maybe what owners might feel like is they're jumping to lab work, they're jumping to a radio graphs. [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we have to do that because the the animal isn't able to say, [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, I've been feeling kind of dizzy or I just, you know, I'm not eating because I have this pain in my stomach or something like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes if we're checking off everything on our list of a potential toxin, then we have to start looking for something else. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's where your, you know, the pet's regular veterinarian comes into play. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: I did that one time with my master where he stopped eating super lethargic, drooled, drooled, drooled, and the first thing I thought is it he ate something.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we were looking up all the different plants outside, you know, what could be potentially toxic? [SPEAKER_01]: What could cause this? [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we did is we went down the line of, [SPEAKER_01]: blood work blood panels at the local vet and they had then found like something was I don't remember But the white blood cell count so they were like I don't think business talk sick I think this is more of like an infection and it turns out that's what it was so and I think I think that that's something that a lot of dog owners hesitate to [SPEAKER_01]: is they're like, well, I don't want to do blood work because it costs money, and I just want to know how to fix it, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are definitely some dog owners and cat owners that are like, yep, whatever it takes. [SPEAKER_01]: So when people call in, again, we talked about your system and your vet text that are highly trained in the toxic. [SPEAKER_01]: things for dogs. [SPEAKER_01]: Do they also get trained in how to speak to people like a 911 dispatcher because it's really hard and difficult to be able to communicate with somebody who is delirious and frantic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's [SPEAKER_00]: two parts to our business and the main part obviously is determining what these animals got into and if it's going to be a concern. [SPEAKER_00]: But the the second part that just inherently comes along with it is how to communicate.

[SPEAKER_00]: and how to talk with with pet owners. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, they're, they're frantic. [SPEAKER_00]: And if I, my pets are my family members and if I wasn't in the job I was in and they got into something, I would also be frantic. [SPEAKER_00]: And so they're very highly trained into calming, helping calm the situation.

[SPEAKER_00]: helping try to help that caller to focus that pet owner to focus on the information that we need to gather and helping to ease their worry a bit. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's very common for us and again, natural for us as humans to get frustrated with the process. [SPEAKER_00]: because they say, why are you asking me all of these questions?

[SPEAKER_00]: Just tell me, is this going to be a problem or is this not going to be a problem? [SPEAKER_00]: And they get really frustrated by that and they're not frustrated with us. [SPEAKER_00]: They're frustrated with the whole situation that they're that their pet is in. [SPEAKER_00]: And so our staff are trained to talk with them and work with them and to say, you know, we [SPEAKER_00]: In order for us to know if this is a problem for your pet, we need to ask these questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need to gather this information. [SPEAKER_00]: And when the owner comes home from work and they have medication that's strung out all over the living room because they animal too would open the bottle. [SPEAKER_00]: And they said I have no idea how much they got into, just tell me what to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then we say that less we know the more recommendations we have to make because we have to be more percussious. [SPEAKER_00]: So, if somebody says my dog got into my bottle of ibuprofen and they don't know how much how much is in there, then we have to think worst case, worst case is ulcerations to the stomach and intestinal tract, kidney failure, potentially neurologic signs.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, we have to treat and make recommendations based on that worst case, but if we can calm [SPEAKER_00]: He got into five ibuprofen tablets, and this is how much he weighs. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is when it happened, we can say, okay, now we can make these better decisions and say, you know what, we need to do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can actually do this at home, or we do need to go into the clinic. [SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing I always like to tell people is to say, don't panic. [SPEAKER_00]: Try to do your best to remain calm in that situation to make good decisions. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just like people like the paramedics first aid doctors, surgeons, ER doctors and physicians.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like that in police officers and so on and first responders in general, that's what they have to work on because they can obviously ignite, make things worse and not get the help that they need as fast as they need to. [SPEAKER_01]: one thing that you mentioned a couple of different times is it sounds like it's very important to know your dog's weight for in case of anything like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it would you say that that's correct? [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: And when we are looking at a toxic dose for things depending on the product, we might be talking about a microgram per kilogram. [SPEAKER_00]: So microgram for every couple of pounds of [SPEAKER_00]: we're not necessarily dealing with, I think it's funny, I say it's funny, in human medicine, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're an adult, you take 500 milligrams of cephaloxin. [SPEAKER_00]: That's if you're 100 pound adult or a 300 pound adult, and that's not the way it works in veterinary medicine. [SPEAKER_00]: It's because animals are so specific and sensitive to certain things. [SPEAKER_00]: We're looking at them on a dose per pound basis.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, you said that the second thing, the most poisonous thing in households from chocolate would be raisins and grapes, like how poisonous are raisins and grapes to dogs? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're, they're very poisonous. [SPEAKER_00]: And the downside is that we still don't know what the toxic component is, what makes them toxic to dogs and cats, and also what makes some dogs more sensitive to it than others.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I was in practice, we had a client and they were wonderful people, wonderful pets and that's how they gave their pet their medication, they stuck their pill into a great everyday and the dog ingested it every, you know, twice a day every day and never had any issues. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it can be challenging to talk to people about avoiding grapes or raisins and pets when they say, oh, my dog's eaten it for years and it hasn't been an issue, but actually it is a concern there has been talk over the last couple of years where the theory was that tartaric acid, which is an ingredient in grapes and raisins could be the cause.

[SPEAKER_00]: It hasn't been proven, it's a theory that was looked at with three animals that actually had poisoning due to cream of tartar, which has tartaric acid in it, and they said, oh, they caused low kidney failure, the pathology signs that are similar, this must be what the cause is, however, and not to get, not not to get into the medical room, but there was a paper that was just published in August.

[SPEAKER_00]: an extremely good paper that looked at over 30,000 dogs and over a thousand cats and they found that the treatment was most successful with activated charcoal decontamination. [SPEAKER_00]: And if the tartaric acid theory was true, activated charcoal, we shouldn't see an improvement with, because it doesn't bind, it doesn't work with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we know that it's very toxic. [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what the component is. [SPEAKER_00]: The true scientific answers. [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what the toxic component is. [SPEAKER_00]: And we know that we've got to avoid it. [SPEAKER_00]: We also know that the dose makes the poison.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you have a one pound little tiny, you know, Chihuahua, that is going to be more concern with one or two grapes. [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a hundred pound mastiff, one or two grapes really isn't going to probably do anything to them. [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to find that balance in between.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a truly somewhat of a subjective call based on the experiences in the cases that we have seen over the last 23 years. [SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely fascinating. [SPEAKER_01]: So the Tarteuric acid, so what you would have to do, and I'm sure that they've done it and they've tried, is every single property within a grape, which is a raise in essentially.

[SPEAKER_01]: We try to isolate every ingredient to try to then give to, I guess, test animals, and then try to figure out which isolated ingredient is the thing, but they haven't been able to do that with grapes. [SPEAKER_00]: They haven't done it to my knowledge and I suspect unless there's someone or a company who has a lot of additional finances to fund that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be something that would be very difficult to actually do and you really have to in order to get these types of toxic studies approved. [SPEAKER_00]: They really have to show the better the better outcome for this and so. [SPEAKER_00]: putting these animals into kidney failure purposefully is not something that a lot of people are interested in doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's certainly, you know, everything that nothing is free where, you know, we're in a society in a world of commerce. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it really would require a good deal of funding to likely be able to say, yes, we know specifically this is what it is. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think theories are really nice and tartaric acid may have something to do with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But again, I wouldn't expect there to be such positive outcome if activated charcoal is used, if tartareic acid was truly the component that caused the issue. [SPEAKER_01]: So it seems like it's not as beneficial to be reactive as it would be to proactive, but it's more [SPEAKER_01]: it's we don't we don't want to spend the money to be proactive right so instead of trying to spend them and I know that it's not a singular person say no we're not going to spend the money it's just not hasn't been a priority in in the medical field with the dogs and cats it's just fascinating because that's like you know one of the things that we cure as dog owners all the time is you know chocolate and grapes and raisins are like this big scary thing do you have any data on how many deaths that raisins

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great question and I don't have data on that but I do know that typically with therapy probably 95 to 98% of dogs do extremely well and many of them never even develop abnormal abnormal signs meaning they don't develop any even kidney injury let alone kidney failure. [SPEAKER_00]: And I do know that in those, those few that do end up with, you know, kidney failure or potentially death, those are ones that didn't seek guidance right away.

[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't seek therapy right away. [SPEAKER_00]: And the paper that was published in August, and this was from a, really, it was in the UK. [SPEAKER_00]: And they, they show that the more favorable outcome was certainly with animals who had therapy. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how many and per year die and that the main reason is a lot of times we don't get that information.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they clinics will follow up with us or sometimes they don't even call us. [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of veterinarians are very comfortable treating grapes and raisin, poisonine and animals. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it doesn't even, it doesn't even come to us to even know that that happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And is there, is there caution? [SPEAKER_01]: Are there certain symptoms that you can look for if your dog does get into raisins or grapes? [SPEAKER_01]: Considering you don't maybe know what they got into and all of a sudden they're acting a certain way, but for me, I have little kids, they raises and grapes almost daily, so are there things to look for specifically with the poison of raisin and grapes for dogs?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so the first thing is often vomiting. [SPEAKER_00]: So these guys will often vomit on their own, meaning nobody try to induce vomiting with them. [SPEAKER_00]: The vomit on their own sometimes with just a few hours after after they've ingested it. [SPEAKER_00]: The downside with grapes and raisins is that once additional signs start to develop, it's a little bit further down the road and that's when kidney damage is already starting.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they may start to drink more and they may have to then go to the bathroom more frequently. [SPEAKER_00]: they may be a lethargic. [SPEAKER_00]: So they're dull. [SPEAKER_00]: They're a calm, they're kind of frumpy. [SPEAKER_00]: They just they're not wanting to be as active as usual on the home.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll have some abdominal pain as time goes on and that and then vomiting will continue. [SPEAKER_00]: And that will just continue to worsen and worsen to become more severe. [SPEAKER_00]: And those are signs that our kidneys are starting to become [SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the things that I always like to encourage and toxicology is that don't wait and see, don't take the weight and see approach.

[SPEAKER_00]: With my dog when she vomits, I often say, let's see, maybe she just, you know, breakfast and settle right with her for one reason. [SPEAKER_00]: She's acting okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So I wait and see. [SPEAKER_00]: However, if it's something that we know they've gotten into [SPEAKER_01]: Is there ever a case where they actually do vomit up the raisin or grape?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: And if they vomit on their own and they vomit, what everything they ingested, that's terrific. [SPEAKER_00]: We get a lot of cases, creeps and raisins are a great example where the owner says, I heal the 83. [SPEAKER_00]: I know only 83 couldn't have eaten more than three.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we induce vomiting or he vomits on his own. [SPEAKER_00]: And all the low and behold, 10 or 15 come out. [SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes it can be challenging to really know how many they got into. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, having young kids at the household, do you count how many grapes or raisins you hand them?

[SPEAKER_00]: And probably not. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't. [SPEAKER_00]: When my children were younger, I didn't count those things. [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes toddlers, because they love their pets, you know, and then the pets looking at them, with those big brown eyes and they hand them, they feed them, you know, their grapes and their raisins and how many did you get them?

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm a toddler. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how many I did. [SPEAKER_00]: and so it can be challenging in that case to determine really how much did they get into or or did they vomit everything that they ingested. [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I know for a fact what my two-year-old would say, he's a seven, he would just throw it around him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or six or seven, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Six, seven? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that we, you know, and again, you know, for people who are listening and watching, you know, of course, we, you know, for me anyway as a parent with our kids eating things that are toxic to our dogs on the regular, right, grapes, raisins, chocolate, etc.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things, you know, we potty trained with is chocolate chips. [SPEAKER_01]: So when when my both of my boys went through potty training, if they went potty on the potty, they would get a chocolate positive reinforcement. [SPEAKER_01]: They would get a chocolate chip, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So we used things that we knew were toxic, but again, the kids also knew where they were. [SPEAKER_01]: So once they got confident and stable enough to move the little, you know, the little stairs that we have that they eat on the counter with they got into stuff and so we did a lot of different training with the kids to let them know very specifically.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, hey, this chocolate is not good for, you know, the dog or whatever, and same thing with the grapes. [SPEAKER_01]: And we just told them like, if you drop, you know, let us know if you drop anything. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think part of it, too, is just training your family, like, hey, just or, you know, I think that's just part of like being a dog owner is there's some people who just have no idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even dog owners have no idea to your point where your client, [SPEAKER_01]: So is there any tie with particular breeds that are more susceptible to toxicity with really anything? [SPEAKER_01]: Because it sounds like certain dogs that can, they can ingest these things without it being toxic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any tied with breeds that handle these things better? [SPEAKER_00]: The one type that I can think of or probably the most common would be our ivermectin products so that is an act the main ingredients in most heartworm preventative and ivermectin or moxie dectin and some of the other other types of medications that are in that same what we call class of drugs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I was young, you know, my started my veterinary career working kennels and a veterinary clinic, and at that time it was the same was white feet don't treat. [SPEAKER_00]: because of colleagues and shelters and those types of dogs having a higher risk of hypermectin poisoning. [SPEAKER_00]: And what we've found now is that there are many, many other breeds of dogs.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the white feet works for some cases that not always Australian shepherds are included in there. [SPEAKER_00]: And wippets, and I think like Italian Greyhounds, and there's a lot of different dogs that are different breeds that can have this. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a gene mutation, there's a genetic defect that causes them to be more sensitive to not only I vermectin, but other types of chemotherapy's opioids, there's other different drugs as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: however, in veterinary medicine, because heartworm preventative is so highly recommended and so life-saving and importance all around the country. [SPEAKER_00]: That's where we have millions and millions and millions of animals on the medication. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the one I can think of that really comes to mind most frequently.

[SPEAKER_00]: Other ones, there's a lot that we get. [SPEAKER_00]: There's just a lot that we don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot we do know and there's a lot we don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: We can say, yeah, that we see breed sensitivities, [SPEAKER_00]: We know more about species differences, so cats are more sensitive to a lot of different products than dogs are, or dogs are more sensitive to things like xylitol dogs are more sensitive to xylitol cats don't have a new shoe with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that we don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: So what are some other things that have breed specific tolerances. [SPEAKER_00]: Or it reads, not, sorry, not greasy. [SPEAKER_01]: Species, yeah, sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: Species, yeah, for sure. [SPEAKER_00]: So again, Zylethal, we see an issue in dogs, not cats.

[SPEAKER_00]: Acita menifin, ibuprofen, aspirin, cats are more sensitive. [SPEAKER_00]: So think a group you're human pain medications into one big grouping and cats are going to be much more sensitive to that. [SPEAKER_00]: There are numerous different types of rat and nouse poisons, so we call them rodenticides, so those blocks of bait that may be put out in the garage or the shed or behind your refrigerator.

[SPEAKER_00]: Cats are more sensitive to role methalen, the active ingredient and that causes brain swelling to occur dogs are of more sensitive to the anti coagulants, which are some of the ones historically that were more common. [SPEAKER_00]: that cause bleeding issues to occur, they are not the most common now.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's something that's good to for every pet owner to know that if your animal gets into a rat or mouse bait, you don't just treat it with vitamin K1 like you used to. [SPEAKER_00]: Onions and garlic. [SPEAKER_00]: Onions and garlic are a good one. [SPEAKER_00]: Cats are probably three to five times more sensitive to onions and garlic than dogs.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that gets the most of them. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there's others that I'm forgetting. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it was assumed that because of the rap poison and some of the other things that you had mentioned, the cats are obviously going to be more susceptible to those things anyway because they're the species that are likely going to be chasing, catching, potentially digesting, some dogs do too.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's obviously probably an issue. [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that this is the no bad dogs podcast but I have a cat and I like cats. [SPEAKER_01]: I've had cats my whole life. [SPEAKER_01]: How often do you guys get that call where the neighbor is using rat poison or whatever and then the cat and just the animal those chipmunks rat mouse is that a big thing with you guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great question. [SPEAKER_00]: And we certainly do receive those calls. [SPEAKER_00]: What I typically say is that unless it's a chronic mouse or so that cat has the majority of its diet on right ingesting rodents of some kind. [SPEAKER_00]: And those rodents every rodent that they're in justine has been has died or has ingested that ratter mouse poison.

[SPEAKER_00]: Usually we don't see a big issue. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's called relay toxicity and what that means is [SPEAKER_00]: the animal in Justin animal that was poisoned from a product. [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't see it that often. [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is because the amount that's in that, you know, the amount that it takes to kill that mouse or rat is certainly going to be smaller than what it would take to be problematic for another animal.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not to say that it can't happen, but we see it extremely rarely and dogs and we see it very rarely in cats as well. [SPEAKER_00]: And unless you're, you know, I always say that the EPA guides what or dictates what manufacturers can sell in their rat and mouse baits. [SPEAKER_00]: and I always say, you know, cats are the only thing yet that are not under EPA control.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're using, if you have cats around that are used to have, you know, help clear mice and maintain, you know, help with the mouse and rat population in your area, then potentially there could be an issue. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you have a [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you have an animal that gets a mouse here and there, it shouldn't be a problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: See, to me, I would have thought that's a goner. [SPEAKER_01]: I would have thought that the mouse and rat poison that killed the mouse or rat is definitely going to cause serious issues with the cat that just digested that animal. [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: that's interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in most cases my cat and I know cats are responsible for I can't remember this statistic where it's crazy like millions of deaths like they're just savages. [SPEAKER_01]: And and I assume in most rural areas that's that's probably even like part of life right people get cats for that reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yeah, that's that's fascinating because like I said, as it's just a, you know, a pet owner, I would assume yep, they, they ingested the rap boys and that means they're on or two. [SPEAKER_01]: We mentioned, I looked tall a couple of different times. [SPEAKER_01]: Can you explain to me what Zylitol is and how many things that it's found in and why it's such a big issue for dogs?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you bet, people ask me a lot of times what my favorite toxin is. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think Xylitol was it. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's been my favorite probably for over 10 years now. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know that there'll be something that replaces it. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's exciting to me because now we know like grapes and raisins are good for people.

[SPEAKER_00]: And garlic and onions are fine for people. [SPEAKER_00]: And there's lots of health benefits. [SPEAKER_00]: vasilatulling impresses me in the sense of all of the there are so many different health benefits to vasilatulling humans and how toxic it is. [SPEAKER_00]: It's even toxic to cattle um that cattle don't obviously have exposure to vasilatull in the way that our small animals do and so we don't really think of them as being a concern but how how how much change how different it affects our animals and it does humans and vasilatull is used most frequently as a sweetener.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it has the glycemic index, a low glycemic index, which means it's beneficial for diabetics to use as a sweetener instead of sucrose or sugar. [SPEAKER_00]: It has the same sweetening power as sugar, and so a lot of people will use it interchangeably instead of if they're sugar in the recipe, they will replace it with xylitol.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then the other good things about xylitol in humans is that it has anti-cavity effects. [SPEAKER_00]: And it probably has anti-cavity effects in our animals, too. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that it's toxic, so we can't use it in that manner. [SPEAKER_00]: And so you will see it in dental offices with, I saw one in my dentist office.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a dry mouth spray, and it contained 44% xylitol, which is an enormous amount of xylitol, and you know what we're to get into that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can see it in dental floss, which isn't going to be enough to be a concern if an animal gets into it. [SPEAKER_00]: They have a bigger issue with the linear form body.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, it's there. [SPEAKER_00]: You'll see it in some toothpaste and some mouth washes. [SPEAKER_00]: And so you'll see it in there for the cavity portion of it. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the other neat part about Zylethal is that it has a humectant effect, which means it helps to retain moisture.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, it helps with deodorants, skin gels, lotions, and people will say, you know, gosh, why in the world would there be Zylethal in deodorant? [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody cares what it tastes like, and it's because it helps to retain moisture. [SPEAKER_00]: It helps to prevent dry out, so it helps to [SPEAKER_00]: maintain shelf life a little bit longer.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what you buy that Costco size bottle of lotion and you have it for four or five months, you don't want it to be dry at the end. [SPEAKER_00]: And so there might be zylatol in those products. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's in, oh, in the other thing that I've noticed and that we've seen is that it gets used a lot in certain wound repairs.

[SPEAKER_00]: So some of those sheets of the film, like that antibacterial films [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes, dilatol is in there as well to help with some of the yeast and protein breakdown and things like that. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I really get excited about dilatol because there's so many different things that are beneficial for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, in our dogs, we can see a drop in blood sugar because it does affect insulin. [SPEAKER_00]: It causes a spike in insulin. [SPEAKER_00]: which then causes our glucose, our blood sugar to drop. [SPEAKER_00]: And then also in higher doses, it affects the liver. [SPEAKER_00]: It kills off our liver cells and causes liver failure to occur.

[SPEAKER_00]: And because it's so good for animal I mean for humans and can be used in different products you'll see it in chewable tablets you'll see it in liquid medications you'll see it in supplements and then you'll see it added to different foods as well so there's a lot of different aspects of where's I let all can be found.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I always say, Zylitol is everywhere, and it's absolutely true. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's mostly one of the things that you, I don't think mentioned that I hear a lot from dog owners is the chewing gum aspect. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely candy. [SPEAKER_00]: So chewing gum.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where probably Zylitol, I don't know this for sure, but I would think that's where it got [SPEAKER_00]: and food products is the dentist's love it, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Choo, chew, sugar-free gum, and let's put zilotalt in it because it helps to prevent cavities from occurring.

[SPEAKER_00]: And gums, candies, yeah, thank you for bringing that up, because those are the most common exposures that we see zilotalt with. [SPEAKER_00]: And the amount of zilotalt in gum, [SPEAKER_00]: is varies. [SPEAKER_00]: So you can have gum x with zylatol, you can have gum y with zylatol, and they can have completely different amounts of zylatol in them.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can also have products that don't say their sugar free. [SPEAKER_00]: You can also have products that have sugar and zylitol in them. [SPEAKER_00]: So you really have to be really with that, you know, take that magnifying glass out and look at the ingredients that are there. [SPEAKER_00]: And I always like to tell people we're looking for a zylitol with an x, y, l. This isn't a z, y, l. It's x, y, l. So you're looking for a word with x, y, l. The specific spelling of zylitol changes.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, a lot of people like, when I hear, oh, like zebra, is zylatol. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of a word that starts with a z. [SPEAKER_00]: And I always just like, I find out it starts with an X. Yeah, X, Y, L, um, zylatol. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I know that's a good point when you're when you're looking at the ingredients.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is spelled kind of funky. [SPEAKER_01]: So the yeah, because that's that's one of the things that I think I hear most often is dogs passing away from Zylitol. [SPEAKER_01]: And I would assume that dogs are getting into Zylitol because of its sweetness. [SPEAKER_00]: They're getting into it one because they're curious and also because, yeah, they probably just like the the taste of what it is they got into and I say that, but we've had dogs that've gotten into 300 capsules of cephalaxid, which if you've ever even just smelled cephalaxid, it's horrible even just to smell it so what it is they like I think as you mentioned very early on is that they like to explore with their mouths.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they see something fun and shiny, and they're say, oh, let me play with this toy, the all-let's see. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this smells good, this doesn't, this looks like it's worth tasting, and so they eat it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't tell you the number of people we've had, unfortunately, it calls where they owner left the dog in the car for just a few minutes.

[SPEAKER_00]: They just ran into the bank, they just ran into the store, and they came back and they adjusted their entire [SPEAKER_00]: that contain large amounts of xylitol and those are, they'll get into book bags, purses, you name it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and a lot of times, that's a good call. [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times gum is in cars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like people are eating gum on the cars and dogs. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, or left in the car, and a lot of dogs are like, hmm, do, do, do, do. [SPEAKER_01]: What am I going to get into? [SPEAKER_01]: And that's so common. [SPEAKER_01]: How dangerous and toxic is thyletal to dogs? [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, so very extremely, extremely toxic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it doesn't mean if they ingest one piece of gum, it's going to be fatal to them. [SPEAKER_00]: But we have a dose of concern where, you know, if to throw out is 0.1 grams per kilogram. [SPEAKER_00]: So that would be like in a, there are certain gums, a 20 pound dog could be one piece could be enough to cause low blood sugar.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you go to your 100 pound mastiff, you know, with the gums that have large amounts of zylataut and them, it could maybe be four or five pieces of gum. [SPEAKER_00]: So it will vary. [SPEAKER_00]: I can't give specific brand names because a lot of times the companies keep the amounts of zylataut proprietary.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so they will share with us and confidentially, as long as we don't share it with others. [SPEAKER_00]: So if the back of the label does it say how much is in there, [SPEAKER_00]: most of the time we will have that information that's there. [SPEAKER_00]: But to cause liver failure, you need five times that amount.

[SPEAKER_00]: So take that 20 pound dog with that piece of gum that contained one gram of zylitol in it and they would need to ingest about five pieces of gum. [SPEAKER_00]: Which isn't very much. [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a new pack of gum and you've got 20 sticks in there, 14 sticks in there and the animal goes to town and kind of eats all of it at, you know, on time, it can be problematic very quickly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you mentioned, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, go, please. [SPEAKER_00]: I was just going to say you mentioned, you know, animals dying from xylitol and this is one two or I think. [SPEAKER_00]: No animal needs to die from silatol anymore because there are a lot of therapies.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've back when I first started 13 years ago based on how we treat things now. [SPEAKER_00]: We know so much more about silatol or we know so much more about. [SPEAKER_00]: successful therapies was Islethal, that the number of fatalities has been cut dramatically and I would love to see no animal die from Islethal, it's the recognition of what they get into that I think kind of hold this back sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think a lot of times it's from my understanding from talking to as many dog owners as I do is it's dogs getting into gum that's on the ground. [SPEAKER_01]: So people who are spitting gum out kids spitting gum out, whatever, and the dogs on a walk and owners are, you know, being like, what did you just eat and a lot of times it's gum, you know, and they're [SPEAKER_01]: Because people, that's a common thing when you're dumb in your gum, you just kind of spit on the ground.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of gross, but obviously people do it, just like they flick cigarette butts everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's a, I think that that's like a double-edged sword. [SPEAKER_01]: So when one thing that I, [SPEAKER_01]: don't require, but I talk about a lot and I advocate for is crate training.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so crate training is a really important role for potty training because it helps the dog understand where to go and where not to go. [SPEAKER_01]: And it also is a very safe thing for dogs to go through as a puppy stage because puppies get into everything, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: My first question with this is how many do you see any type of variance between the calls that you're getting from adult dogs versus puppies?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and this is kind of a fun one because we look at kind of our toxin trends every year and we pull up the what are the top 10 toxins in different age categories. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we look at one year and younger we look at like one to five years five to seven years and like older than a new 10 years or something like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's an interesting one because the the one year in younger tend to follow kind of the top 10 pretty well. [SPEAKER_01]: So dogs as they age get into different things. [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what you're saying? [SPEAKER_00]: They do and it's it's really interesting because. [SPEAKER_00]: Once I looked at it and I saw this it's a gosh it this makes complete sense this is common sense that they get into different things but it wasn't something that I really thought about until I looked at it and so as our animal ages.

[SPEAKER_00]: They start to get into medications that either themselves or another maybe aging pet in the household is getting into. [SPEAKER_00]: So they're getting into heart medication. [SPEAKER_00]: They're getting into the cat's thyroid medication. [SPEAKER_00]: They're getting into things that's more of their pain medication as an animal starts to develop arthritis and things those things that might be in there and people are not calling us because their pet was given its normal amount and is now having an adverse effect from it they're calling us because they got into more than they should have.

[SPEAKER_00]: either the owner double dose to them, or the little Chihuahua swooped in and took the older, the larger dog's medication, or even the cat for that matter, whereas our younger dogs tend to get into chocolates, xylitol, grapes and raisins, and the older dogs are getting into them too, but if you look at the top, the top 10, [SPEAKER_00]: with our older dogs about 50% of those turn into medication veterinary medications that are being used in the household for either than that pet or other aging pets in the household.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really interesting to see how they they shift what it is that they get into. [SPEAKER_01]: It is interesting because [SPEAKER_01]: I know I've had clients in the past that again, we talked a little bit about like the crate training aspect from a professional training side and I have clients in the past that they go to take a shower with their puppy and they give their dog the freedom and then they get in I've had clients unfortunately do that where [SPEAKER_01]: they will get into a bottle of pills and they come out and the dogs pass away or even in some cases dogs will especially puppies.

[SPEAKER_01]: They'll eat all the food or even a middle-aged dog. [SPEAKER_01]: They'll eat a lot of food and then they bloat and then there's this whole thing with that. [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the things that you mentioned that I really want to speak to you about is the garlic and onions thing because I know that there's [SPEAKER_01]: I've used them before.

[SPEAKER_01]: The feed through flea and tick. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you call them supplements, but they're they're topical feed what they call feed through is for a flea and tick deterrent because it emits oil out of the skin that deterres and repels flea and ticks. [SPEAKER_01]: I think ticks more than fleas, but so is that the same thing is like the dosage is deciding and predicating the [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's I say it jokingly, but it's a serious comment that I think that when we try to do outreach as far as the toxic concerns of [SPEAKER_00]: of onions in garlic.

[SPEAKER_00]: We probably receive the most hate mail from that. [SPEAKER_00]: I would say the most negative responses when we post things about the concerns with garlic and onions. [SPEAKER_00]: And one of those reasons is that your people will say garlic and onions are not toxic, they're healthy, there are so many health benefits you can use it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, you can certainly use garlic and onions in certain things. [SPEAKER_00]: You'll find many, many pet foods that contain maybe garlic, salt, or garlic powder, onion powder for flavory. [SPEAKER_00]: But they've done their research, they've done their job. [SPEAKER_00]: So they're making sure that it's not in a dose that is toxic to the animal.

[SPEAKER_00]: where we tend to get into issues is when that animal ingest a clove of garlic or the whole bulb of garlic or you know eats half a cup of fresh onions that the owner was just about to cook with. [SPEAKER_00]: Those are a much larger concentrations of our amounts of garlic and onion what we're going to have more issues.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the reality is, the truth is, is that alium, the plant alium, which is where our garlic and onions and green onion shallots, all of those things come from, is very toxic to animals. [SPEAKER_00]: It causes red blood cell breakdown, and so they become extremely enemic from that. [SPEAKER_00]: and the flea and tick products that contain garlic on there as a deterrent, generally would not contain enough to be problematic if an animal were to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you were to use that on a pet or if the animal were to ingest it for one reason or another. [SPEAKER_01]: So just to clarify, it is the case of dosage being the determining factor of it being toxic or [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I know that that's, you know, when you when you see, you know, post on Instagram or anywhere, you just see like things that are bad for dogs, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things, especially around the holidays that people posted about like things that are bad for dogs. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's true, right, especially when you're cooking, I think, I think around the holidays, it happens often like you said before people are getting gifts, they're getting chocolates, they're getting cookies, they're getting [SPEAKER_01]: all these different things, but also when you're cooking, Thanksgiving, which is coming up shortly, which is crazy, and Christmas, as we're recording this in September, you're also batching out for a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're making stuffing with garlic and onions, you're [SPEAKER_01]: making a lot right and and same thing with you know everything else that you do when you're making cookies you're making a lot because you're doing cookie parties and giveaways and I think I think that happens and and there's all these kind of like which is great I mean that's why the holidays are so so fun right it's very [SPEAKER_01]: community based and you everyone gets together and we're sharing things and we're eating a lot and just, you know, kind of a time to to enjoy that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had a couple years ago, my one of my sponsors had shipped me this actually from Germany. [SPEAKER_01]: They had shipped me these. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember what it's called in German, but it's like these little treats for humans that have raisins in them. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's like, I think there was also like a white raisin, I think, or like a light, like a lighter raisin and my dog, sure enough, eight, like got into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And not in my wildest dreams. [SPEAKER_01]: would I have thought that that would happen. [SPEAKER_01]: She's not a she's not like an investingatory getting into stuff dog never has been and since then has never been but for whatever reason these like little almost I can't remember what the heck they're called.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she got into him and she ate a bunch of them and they were filled with raisins and she was sick. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean vomiting and vomiting and vomiting and I was like, oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I monitored her and I watched her and the only reason why I didn't call somebody like yourself on the toxic hotline or bring her into the vet is because she was actually she was inducing her own vomiting and she was vomiting up the things.

[SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't dry hearing or [SPEAKER_01]: a bio or anything like that, but it is kind of incredible from my standpoint of a dog who never gets into something. [SPEAKER_01]: Got into a whole tray of, you know, they're like boxed, you know, kind of like an advent calendar. [SPEAKER_01]: They were boxed in this cardboard and I was shocked.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely shocked that she got into that, but she did, and so anyway, I digress. [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, the holidays do present a lot of, [SPEAKER_01]: batching and mass quantities of these things. [SPEAKER_01]: And so what you're saying is is the uncooked garlic and onions is more dangerous than the cooked garlic and onions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that correct? [SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily, so we've still concerned about the cooked garlic and onions and we end up really kind of calculating our toxic doses are based off of fresh onion fresh garlic and so even if they're cooks they still have that component I just think that they usually get into a larger amount.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if they are getting into a, again, like the, the pet foods that have garlic powder and the powder and them, they're not enough to be a concern. [SPEAKER_00]: They flintake products that have, you know, garlic on them, they're not going to be enough to really be a concern. [SPEAKER_00]: I will say, however, you do have to be very concerned with animals getting into.

[SPEAKER_00]: the bottles of garlic powder garlic salt onion powder because they are more concentrated than the fresh product itself. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think one teaspoon of. [SPEAKER_00]: don't quote me on this. [SPEAKER_00]: I think one teaspoon of garlic powder equals like one clove of garlic. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a smaller amount.

[SPEAKER_00]: But when you're cooking in an entire like gosh, I used a teaspoon for this entire this entire pot of whatever it was I was making. [SPEAKER_00]: And my dog ingested a couple bites of the finished product. [SPEAKER_00]: Probably not going to be enough to be an issue. [SPEAKER_00]: But we had a dog, [SPEAKER_00]: that was a thing was a laboratory, of course it was a laboratory, and he got into a cost co-container of garlic powder and ingested mouthfuls and mouthfuls of garlic powder, and he did everything he was supposed to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: He developed himalytic anemia, so his breadblossoles broke down and he required a blood transfusion and really aggressive care. [SPEAKER_00]: And so [SPEAKER_00]: depending on what it is that they get into, you know, that which type of which form of garlic or onion would be the bigger concern.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it really is, it comes back down to the idea that it depends on how much they ingest, just like anything else, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So you got it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the dose makes a poison. [SPEAKER_00]: It all comes back to that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because that's, I mean, one of those things that, again, Nick, you hear so much garlic and onions, and so what's the deal with avocado?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is, is, how poisonous and toxic is avocado to dogs? [SPEAKER_00]: It really is. [SPEAKER_00]: It's really not a concern. [SPEAKER_00]: The issue with avocado and dogs is going to be the seed, the large pit. [SPEAKER_00]: And that would be potentially a foreign body if they were to ingest that they might have stomach upset, maybe a little bit vomiting diarrhea depending on the dog and the dog if they haven't stomach sensitivity, but I'm not afraid to give my dog avocado.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not afraid to give my cat avocado. [SPEAKER_00]: The big concern is going to be birds and rabbits. [SPEAKER_00]: So our dogs really get a free pass with that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it's because here's the thing right dog owners when they see like again like you said we we love our our pets like dearly and our job like it is our kids is to keep them safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you see something online that says toxic or bad, you know, and really anybody could be making these things, especially for what they call a rage bait, which is, you know, essentially just putting something up that's really not true just to make a bunch of people mad. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you see avocado on that list often and and the other day my my mother-in-law was over and Like, you know, there was like I was make I always make a smoothie every morning and then that smoothie I put avocado and there's like a piece of smoothie that fell on the floor and she was like get it quick Oh, you know, she was kind of like, you know dramatic about it, but I get it you know It's it is when you see these lists.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like [SPEAKER_01]: and I always was told the same thing that it's actually the avocado itself like the flesh and the meat of the avocado avocado, if you will, is not actually inherently dangerous or toxic to dogs actually the pit but the pit isn't even toxic. [SPEAKER_01]: We're just talking about potential choking hazards.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that correct? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and not really a choking hazard, but an obstruction in the stomach, so it or in the intestinal tract. [SPEAKER_00]: It causes a block. [SPEAKER_00]: It causes a blockage that then usually has to be surgically removed. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a perfect size, you know, like a golf almost like a little bit bigger than a golf ball, but not the same size as a baseball.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just that's dangerous for kids too. [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, since you're talk about knowing what is, you know, in your right with the internet, you can find anything. [SPEAKER_00]: You can find any information and knowing or whether or not it's true is the challenge.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the challenge for, you know, I have an easier job of determining that as a veterinarian, but when it comes to human content, it can be difficult for me to know what's true and what isn't true. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we try very, we try very hard to make sure that on our website, [SPEAKER_00]: Everything you find there is going to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you can go to your source for true information. [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to find information on our website that says avocados or toxic to dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: But it is funny. [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're talking about the holidays, you know, point sedios are usually on that list, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't outpoint sedios in your home. [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a dog because it's toxic and reality yes, it's toxic to dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: But it only causes stomach upset. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it has, it has, it has components, it has chemicals in there that make it cause it to be toxic.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what's going to happen? [SPEAKER_00]: It might just have some vomiting, maybe some loose stool. [SPEAKER_00]: So is it really a concern? [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm happy to have points that is in my house. [SPEAKER_00]: And last I have a dog or a cat that's constantly eating them, and then I don't want to have them vomiting all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a very different source of concern than saying, you know, absolutely do not have that in your house. [SPEAKER_00]: I will happily, as a veterinary tax ecologist, it will happily have a point that is in my house. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm relieved to hear you say that because, you know, I think us dog owners, including myself, when we go to the store, we're like, oh, stay away from this, stay away from that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I'm learning is it's much, much more about. [SPEAKER_01]: the dosage they'd have to eat the whole dang plant with you not looking for whatever reason and then you know then there's you know potential issues. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought and I was under the impression that the Poincetta's Poincetta is it POS or POS?

[SPEAKER_01]: Pocetta's? [SPEAKER_01]: Poincetta's? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it's it's well some people will say Poincetta and some will say Poincetta. [SPEAKER_00]: What I thought to do me know tomato. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I thought that they were more toxic to cats actually. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not [SPEAKER_00]: No, they're not it if we're either dog or cat they can cause just stomach upset to occur.

[SPEAKER_00]: So again, I think cats by nature tend to chew on plants more frequently than dogs do. [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe cats are more affected in the sense of there the ones chewing on the plants more frequently. [SPEAKER_00]: We have we have a dog and cats and my cats are the ones who like to chew on the plants and my dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: doesn't have anything to do with them. [SPEAKER_00]: So if they were go, if they don't usually go after the point set in the holidays, but if they did, I would put it in an area where the cat couldn't get to, but I wouldn't be, there are certainly plans I'm not going to have in my household with a dog or a cat.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the point set is they're not one of them. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think points out as there are commonly probably ingested by cats because we tend to put them on tables, counters, as decorations during the holidays and obviously aren't my cat anyway, he's that's a whole other story. [SPEAKER_01]: He's on the counter all the time working on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: If anybody out there's a cat trainer, let me know, but I think it does just make sense. [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously the next the next segue would be what are some common house plants that are very toxic for our dogs or cats. [SPEAKER_00]: You bet. [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll talk with cats, we'll start with cats.

[SPEAKER_00]: Cats are the lilyum or the hemorrhacallus species of plants. [SPEAKER_00]: So those would be what we consider true lilies. [SPEAKER_00]: The hemorrhacallus are daily lilies, and so they're not typically in the household, unless you're maybe growing them outside and you cut them and bring them in.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the lilyums, those would be your star gazers, your orientals, your aziotic lilies, your Easter lilies, [SPEAKER_00]: While we're in the holidays, it will be Easter before you know it, and let's see, I think I mentioned Rose Lily as well. [SPEAKER_00]: Even Tiger Lily's, but again, Tiger Lily's art typically inside, but any of those, they can cause kidney failure in cats.

[SPEAKER_00]: And even in a fresh cut bouquet, so they're often in your fresh cut bouquet's from a forest, or you've... [SPEAKER_00]: gotten them out of farmers market, or what have you, or you are just growing them inside. [SPEAKER_00]: And any part of that plant is toxic, including the pollen. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you own a cat and you have lilies at home and you come home and your cat has yellow or orange on them from the pollen, it's soon they ingested it because cats love to groom themselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so they likely ingested that. [SPEAKER_00]: The other ones I would avoid in dogs and cats would be shamrock. [SPEAKER_00]: Shamrock would be a nice one. [SPEAKER_00]: So when you, when St. Patrick's state comes along and you think it would be fun to have a lucky four-leaf clover shamrock planting your household, make sure that dogs and cats can't get into that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that also, depending on the amount they ingest, can cause kidney failure to occur. [SPEAKER_00]: Other things that I would avoid would be like the I call them [SPEAKER_00]: plants those have cardiac or heart toxins that are in there as well, so I'm going to avoid those. [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, there's a lot of our common, what I call common house plants, so fill a dendron, the monsteras, pothos plants, those can cause [SPEAKER_00]: mouth pain, so excessive drooling, salvation, it can cause pain in the esophagus and the stomach as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I typically would avoid having those in the house that has a cat that's chewing on them frequently because it's just going to be really painful to them, but we don't see like organ damage developing. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you were to say, if you have a dog in the house, [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah, so the other one, single palm.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've didn't mention that one. [SPEAKER_00]: Savile palm. [SPEAKER_00]: You could usually with think of it as a warm weather outdoor tree at large plant. [SPEAKER_00]: And you can go to most garden houses. [SPEAKER_00]: You can even go to Walmart, target places that carry that sell house plants.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can get the very cute little house single palm plant. [SPEAKER_00]: Those will cause liver failure and fatalities very quickly in dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: So I would avoid that. [SPEAKER_00]: I would never have that as Sago Palm specifically in the household. [SPEAKER_00]: There are other pongs that don't carry that same concern, but Sago Palm I would never have in the household with a dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I would never have in the household with a dog is the shamrock plant. [SPEAKER_00]: And otherwise, the other ones, it would maybe remove as far as the azaleas, roto dendrons, and that calancowy. [SPEAKER_00]: I would remove those from the house if I had a dog that naturally liked to chew on plants.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense and I know we have a I have a dog training facility and I like plants, I like house plants, I like indoor plants, I have them everywhere and that was one of the things that I had to research because I was like oh let's get this plant I'm like wait a minute like let's make sure it's good and and the plants that were iffy where they could cause you know stomach stomach issues and stuff we put you know high up so anyway and but again no no dog and our facility is just wandering around like like a pet dog would be anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I want to talk about, and this, this may not be in your lane, it may be because I, but the, the, the, the plug-ins, the candles, and it may, and again, like it's more of like an old factory type of thing, but I have clients that have all the, the grade plug-ins, the bet, I mean, every company makes them right, but it's probably the same company oversees anyway, but [SPEAKER_01]: Do those cause toxic issues with dogs?

[SPEAKER_01]: The artificial sense in the plug-ins and in the candles and the sprays, the forbreases. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see any toxic relation with those in dogs? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the short answer is no. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not typically an issue. [SPEAKER_00]: I get concerned if you have an animal in the household that has respiratory disease respiratory issues.

[SPEAKER_00]: If they have asthma, [SPEAKER_00]: if they have some type of pulmonary, chronic pulmonary disease, then I'm typically bronchitis. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm typically going to say I would avoid things with scent, with fragrances, because they typically are just more irritating to the respiratory tract.

[SPEAKER_00]: If an animal were to ingest, if a dog or cat were to ingest, [SPEAKER_00]: the essential oils from a diffuser, the concentrated essential oils that can be problematic. [SPEAKER_00]: Depending on the essential oil, they may have ulcerations to the mouth and to the GI tract. [SPEAKER_00]: There are some that can cause liver failure.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are some that could potentially cause neurologic signs, depending on what that essential oil is, those would be the concentrated products. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not opposed to using, we like candles in our household, we have plug-ins, I'm not opposed to using those products in our household with healthy animals in well-ventilated areas.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you lock a dog or a cat into a small bathroom all day and you have a plug-in in there, they may have some respiratory irritation, [SPEAKER_00]: enough to be a distress. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: It depends on the animal. [SPEAKER_00]: So I would avoid that. [SPEAKER_00]: As long as it's in open, well ventilated areas, I'm okay with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: As long as you are not allowing that pet access to the concentrated essential oil, then I'm okay with that. [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of morphs into tea tree oil. [SPEAKER_00]: You can doctor Google and you know, how do I treat [SPEAKER_00]: and you can find steps on using T3 oil. [SPEAKER_00]: and concentrated tea tree oil is very toxic to dogs, so I was very sensitive to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see neurologic signs so a taxeum potentially tremors developing from that that require hospitalization and medical care. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you think about putting that on that's usually because they're applying, I just applied to drop. [SPEAKER_00]: I just applied to drop into the ear to treat ear mites.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now my dog is having body tremors. [SPEAKER_00]: You can find pet shampooes that have teacher oil in them. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: They're highly diluted. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not going to be the issue. [SPEAKER_00]: It's the concentrated essential oils that I would avoid allowing any pet to have access to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are there any other essential oils that are toxic or dangerous for dogs? [SPEAKER_00]: So like penny royal oil, if I don't know how frequently that's used to be honest, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's when we can see I believe we can see liver failure in those and then some of the others in cats, you know, citrus oil.

[SPEAKER_00]: that that can be more problematic. [SPEAKER_00]: We can see a lot of more the most common thing we're going to see with the exception of teacher oil through that one to a different side by itself. [SPEAKER_00]: It would be potentially for those ulcerations and kind of that let's say chemical burn for lack of easier things to save, but we can see ulcerations to the mouth developing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So really significant source, think of your mouth having being full of cold source and that's what we can see in those cases. [SPEAKER_01]: Are there any particular household cleaners that we would use every day that is toxic or dangerous for dogs? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so the ones I think about really needing to be behind a closed door and handled very carefully would be your oven cleaners, your calcium lime and rest room over products.

[SPEAKER_00]: your toilet bowl cleaners, think about the products when you walk down that cleaning aisle, think about the products that have a really hard job to do. [SPEAKER_00]: And those are usually going to be your products that have corrosive effects, meaning they have either a really high pH or a really low pH that cause ulcers to the mouth, the esophagus, the stomach, and the intestinal tract.

[SPEAKER_00]: without treatment or the severity of those those can actually perforate or break open and cause death to occur. [SPEAKER_00]: So they're extremely dangerous. [SPEAKER_00]: We also are concerned about those in the concentrated form. [SPEAKER_00]: So when you have that bottle of toilet wool cleaner and you leave it steady now, [SPEAKER_00]: In your curious puppy is unattended and decides to chew on it and ingest that, then we have that issue, we're from the ingestion, but then we also have the issue with potential source and ulcers in the around the skin and the muzzle or maybe in the eye if it got if it was if it was splattered into the eye.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then thing about you've already poured it into the toilet bowl, now it's diluted out with a lot of water and while that's not good, we don't want our dog or cat in drinking that it by any means is going to be less of a concern because it's diluted out now, then if it was in the bottle directly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what about, for an example, I'm thinking specifically like floor cleaners, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You mop your floor and your dog walking around or you're cat even walking around with these little sponges on their feet, are there any concerns with like, again, generic and household products that we would use regularly with with anything like that because they're they're kind of soaking that up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a good question. [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say in most cases, not a big issue. [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is because we've taken that capital of cleaner and we've dumped it into a gallon of water or we've, you know, we've diluted it out quite significantly. [SPEAKER_00]: There aren't a lot of products, even ready to use products are already diluted.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so there aren't a lot of those products that are in the concentrated form. [SPEAKER_00]: And so if a pet were to ingest in the of that, they were to get it on their paw and they were to lick it and lick it and ingest it. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe some out stomach upset if they have a sensitive stomach, probably not going to notice any issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: If they have sensitive skin, if they have sensitive paw pads, perhaps you would see some irritation on the paw pads if it was frequently occurring. [SPEAKER_00]: That's for household cleaners and chemicals. [SPEAKER_00]: When you have an industrial disinfectant that might be used in your training facility or an aborting facility, an animal clinic, those often depending on how diluted they are, [SPEAKER_00]: can be more irritating and could still cause either more redness irritation or if not diluted damage to the to the pop ads.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I you know again and I look if you as a veterinary toxicologist home take it for what it's worth. [SPEAKER_00]: I try to keep my pets off of the floor after I've mopped it just because I don't want their paw prints on the freshly mop floor. [SPEAKER_00]: If they walk in it and it's been wet, I don't wash their feet.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not concerned about that because I know I've diluted that product significantly enough that I'm not worried about a toxic concern happening. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how that makes sense, how much research do you do about links with diseases and cancers from certain products? [SPEAKER_01]: Is that something that you've ever looked into or something that you've you've ever gone down?

[SPEAKER_00]: So, me personally know I haven't and on the animal side, certainly I would say chronic exposures, just as with humans and chronic exposures, there may be links that are there. [SPEAKER_00]: And when I think of the every once in a while exposure and the lifespan of the animal, [SPEAKER_00]: is not something that I have seen a lot of correlation with.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, certainly if they were exposed to certain fumes every single day of their life, or they had higher concentrations of something, I would potentially remark and start. [SPEAKER_00]: But I have not read, I really haven't read things that show a specific link to everyday kind of household exposures and cancer development in pets.

[SPEAKER_00]: But my personal opinion, one, there may be something there that I'm not aware of, but my personal opinion is I think there's a lot of, well, we certainly have cancers developing an animals, it's not that they can't have cancer, it's one of the leading causes of death and diseases and animals, but so many of these things that may environmental concerns cause cancer and humans are really long or term exposures that our animals lifespan doesn't typically.

[SPEAKER_00]: doesn't typically extend to that period of time. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense because I've talked to so many different people in the fields of different categories and topics and one of the things that I've talked to about I've talked to veterinarians about is the, you know, the difference between something being immediately toxic or dangerous versus the long term potential effects of certain cleaning products, household products, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that that's not really like your forte, but [SPEAKER_01]: With that being said, one of the things that I have been researching is the different cancers that have been, but I don't know if they've been linked to a particular fertilizer or something, but is that a big issue with what you do with different fertilizers and and pesticides that we're putting on the grass with our dogs is that something that you run into often.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a great question and I think it's certainly a topic that really deserves a lot more exploring and the you know, the human sighting, they're doing a lot of it and maybe a little bit on the animal sight too, but but the the answer is is really no, not for our, not for our household pets, not for our family, you know, our family member pets.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I think the reason is that they're not getting the same [SPEAKER_00]: length duration, concentration of exposure that humans are. [SPEAKER_00]: So we use fertilizer on our and our yard. [SPEAKER_00]: We try to keep the pets off of it for several hours and we'll water it in, let it dry.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you follow the labeling instructions on that particular fertilizer, typically we just don't we just don't usually see an issue in pets other than vomiting and diarrhea. [SPEAKER_00]: There are times when sometimes it's coincidental, where the animals having some additional sign, they recently put fertilizer onto the yard or some type of a pesticide and the animals displaying this and then you dig a little bit deeper and low and behold, it was a different product that they got into or they actually have a medical disease that just happened to kind of [SPEAKER_00]: We really, I'm just trying to think of any that we've seen anything more than maybe some mild stomach upset.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you have a, if you're using it on a quarterly basis, something like that, you're following label instructions, you really shouldn't have more than stomach upset or maybe mild skin irritation with a path. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I know like what I've started to do after having a couple of different people on talking about the long term potential issues with cancer being linked to certain pesticides and because one of the things that people don't consider is maybe you're doing all the right things, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But your neighbor isn't. [SPEAKER_01]: right so your neighbor is overdosing not paying attention they hire somebody in 18-year-old kid comes out reads the label wrong and that's been a big concern in in the dog health space is not only the health of the dog but the or not only the the lifespan of the dog but the health span of the dog and that's what that's what some some veterinarians have been concerned with [SPEAKER_01]: to your point.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you don't always, in most cases, have to worry about what you're doing because you're taking the extra precautions, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You have kids, you have dogs, you have cats, you're making sure that your dosage is correct, and it's appropriate. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, you're taking preliminary [SPEAKER_01]: and proactive approaches and even reactive approaches to make sure that your animals and your kids and even you aren't out there while it's being sprayed or plain in it after, but the thing with pesticides and fertilizers is especially, I live in a cul-de-sac.

[SPEAKER_01]: So my yards are, we're all one big yard. [SPEAKER_01]: So, right, if my neighbor isn't paying attention or doesn't really care or whatever, that is absolutely airborne coming over into my yard into my plants. [SPEAKER_01]: I also, it's kind of a double-edged sword. [SPEAKER_01]: I live right in front of a farm.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not a huge farm, but, you know, he does strawberries and, you know, all the, all the, all the, the fun things to go. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's great, but, you know, he's spraying it and he's got a tractor and he's spraying it. [SPEAKER_01]: property hits my fence, and I know that that's coming over.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's just something that I have been looking at of maybe you are. [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, I use after doing multiple podcasts with different specialists and different vets talking about the concern about potential links and cancers to different pesticides and herbicides and the killer and all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been using a lot of organic stuff and it's actually pretty interesting that you can actually go out and find a lot of things that are natural for your yard like there's a, there's a, a pre emergent which is essentially killing your weeds. [SPEAKER_01]: and your yard, that's actually a natural-based pre-emergent made at a corn.

[SPEAKER_01]: For whatever reason, there's like this formula of corn, that's treated this certain way, that is a good pre-emergent. [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I digress. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the other things that I know when I originally emailed you and reached out to have you on is, you were talking about dogs getting into the supplements and the medications and things like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we talked about it just a little bit. [SPEAKER_01]: But is there a, I mean, I just wanted to ask you about that, because immediately you were like, hey, bigger than some of the low hanging fruit like garlic and chocolate and grapes, one of the things you expressed was like the supplements and the medication, is there any more to that that we that we haven't covered.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think one of the things that gets somewhat a misconception or a confusion is that because it's a supplement or because it's over the counter it's safe and because it's natural it's safe and that kind of goes a little bit with some of the like organic products and the natural yard products and things because it's natural doesn't necessarily mean it's safe.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, not to to to to make an analogy is that snake venom is natural, but it can can kill you and it can kill your animals. [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to be careful with that a lot of our essential oils, you know, coming from lavender and got coming from different things. [SPEAKER_00]: And so plants are natural, but plants can be fatal and certain cases.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like I think it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and grapes. [SPEAKER_00]: I think natural products are good. [SPEAKER_00]: I think do your research if you're a pet owner to make sure that that particular those particular ingredients in that natural product are actually okay to have around the pets as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: But when we kind of getting back to supplements and medications, so supplements over the counters, they're like, oh, it's a vitamin. [SPEAKER_00]: It's safe. [SPEAKER_00]: It's healthy. [SPEAKER_00]: It's good. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to be problematic. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my pet just ingested 10 of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to be an issue. [SPEAKER_00]: I take it every day. [SPEAKER_00]: Joint supplements, alpha lipolgasid, vitamin D3, and all these things that as humans, we we may take on a daily basis and not seeing the issues with because [SPEAKER_00]: We're not a dog and we're not, we're not tugging a bottle of it, you know, we're not eating the entire container and over the counter medications like ibuprofen So addvill an a proxin which contains which is a leave and a cita minifin which is Thailand and often Thailand all [SPEAKER_00]: those are very dangerous to our pets.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so even as we talked about earlier, cats are more sensitive to acetaminophen ibuprofen, other pain medications. [SPEAKER_00]: The dogs are certainly more sensitive than humans are and really making sure that [SPEAKER_00]: even if it's not a prescription medication, know that that could be toxic and could be potentially fatal to your pet.

[SPEAKER_00]: So keep that, you know, you can put it up into a counter, up into a cabinet, but if you have a cat, like you do, I call them the assassin cats, the assassin cats that walk around on the countertop, and then knock things off for the dog, you know, for the dog in the household to ingest, so that the dog is no longer around and hopes that the dog is no longer around.

[SPEAKER_00]: and some of those cats open up the, you know, they open up the cabinet door. [SPEAKER_00]: So I say, you know, if you're not going to put it behind a locking key, at least put it behind a door that that has a latch to it. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't take any of those, any of those supplements, medications for granted, don't assume that they are fine for their pet just because they're healthy for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, well, like you said, I mean, a great, a great analogy or even just a reference would be, you know, you're eating chocolate, you love chocolate, you know, and your, your dog gets into it and that's, you know, or even like I said, like even more natural or or, yeah, more organic could be a raising or a great, you know, it's great for you and it's tasty.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, your kids are popping them down like nobody's business, but could be deadly to your pets. [SPEAKER_01]: So how often do you get people calling in that they gave their dog or their cat, Tylenol, or Advil, or something like that for pain? [SPEAKER_01]: How often did those calls come in for you guys?

[SPEAKER_00]: Very frequently, unfortunately, they're very frequently. [SPEAKER_00]: The most, you know, even that the most, [SPEAKER_00]: conscientious owner, you know, they, you know, the most thoughtful owner, they will, they will often do things because they will find it on the internet, they will find it, it's okay to do and they will find or their friend told them or, you know, somebody they heard they read an article or they saw something.

[SPEAKER_00]: that said that this was okay to do and so they do that for their pet we have had health professionals we've had pharmacists nurses physicians who have done the same thing because they didn't know that animals were more sensitive to certain products and. [SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, it's Friday night.

[SPEAKER_00]: My dog just is now limping. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give him ibuprofen or naproxin and I'm going to do that through the weekend because my veterinarian doesn't open again until Monday and he's otherwise acting okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't want to take him to an emergency clinic. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to keep doing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then come Monday, he's vomiting. [SPEAKER_00]: He's drinking excessively. [SPEAKER_00]: He's urinating excessively. [SPEAKER_00]: And he has elevated kidney values because he's been put into significant kidney damage because they don't just didn't know. [SPEAKER_00]: And they're well-intentioned.

[SPEAKER_00]: But unfortunately, it's something that I don't think we can get enough education out that. [SPEAKER_00]: Animals are not humans. [SPEAKER_00]: Dogs are not small humans. [SPEAKER_00]: Cats are not dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: Cats are not humans. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we really shouldn't be giving them over-the-counter products without talking to a veterinarian first.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, that's that's huge. [SPEAKER_01]: I had a friend that had did that luckily. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a great day. [SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't you know a big deal. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, she gave she's like, Oh, he was a limping. [SPEAKER_01]: So I gave him Adville or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you can't do that. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not I wasn't that's really like, yeah, curious. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I have seen and heard like baby aspirin being prescribed to dogs for certain things. [SPEAKER_01]: Am I wrong or is that? [SPEAKER_01]: Is that a thing? [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're absolutely right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there are things where baby aspirin might be prescribed and even a seed of benefit in some cases might be prescribed. [SPEAKER_00]: The the dose obviously again makes the poison. [SPEAKER_00]: These are much, much lower doses and what we would see as a toxic concern and they might be used for one reason or another.

[SPEAKER_00]: So over the last. [SPEAKER_00]: I would like to say two or three years, but I know there are veterinarians who have probably been using it longer than that, but I've seen an uptick in acetaminophen being used in some of the geriatric animals that maybe they can't, it dogs, not really cats but dogs where they, maybe their kidneys aren't handling the traditional non-stroyed old anti-inflammatories very well anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: And for one reason or another, they need to, that isn't an ideal medication option for them. [SPEAKER_00]: And so the veterinarian might prescribe acetaminophen, low doses of that. [SPEAKER_00]: Aspirin, low doses of aspirin might be prescribed for dogs or cats for various things, for different blood clotting issues or different blood issues, different diseases where they have found it to be beneficial.

[SPEAKER_00]: very low doses. [SPEAKER_00]: Cats are very sensitive to it, so it would be even lower to cat than it would be in a dog, but certainly would not be something where maybe your great day is an exception to the role of your mast if where we would be prescribing the same, you know, what you would be buying, like you'd be pulling off of the counter.

[SPEAKER_01]: How big of a, how many calls do you guys get about cannabis [SPEAKER_00]: cannabis is interesting because we've looked back we looked back now it's been six years we look back at 2020 and we see you know we know that the pandemic has done a lot to our society it's done a lot of good it's done a lot of it's done a lot of things maybe not so good it's caused a lot of changes there have been a lot of changes in societal thoughts and in the way society kind of.

[SPEAKER_00]: and acts in response. [SPEAKER_00]: And we looked at the marijuana or any type of THC calls that we've received. [SPEAKER_00]: And we saw a huge spike between 2020 and 2021. [SPEAKER_00]: So in the, you know, the heart of the pandemic. [SPEAKER_00]: And then we saw a few increases for two or three years after that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then last year was, then two years ago, we saw our first decline in number of marijuana or THC calls. [SPEAKER_00]: And in 2025 was pretty on board the same with as 2024 and I don't believe that it's because animals are getting exposed less frequently I believe it's because veterinarians are more comfortable treating and they aren't seeking our guidance in the way that they use to now that so many states have legalized some form of THC [SPEAKER_00]: And because it's become just more common place to talk about openly in public.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I was first in practice, and I had, I can remember my first marijuana dog and hit every sign of marijuana poisoning. [SPEAKER_00]: And I kept saying, are you sure you didn't get into anything else? [SPEAKER_00]: Are you sure there wasn't this in the household? [SPEAKER_00]: And they said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [SPEAKER_00]: And by the time he went home, the owners came clean and said yes, you know, he got into our, he onto our stash of marijuana.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think nowadays it's, you know, you see it on TV, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I had, I went to a party and I had a gummy and I went to this and I had that and so more people talk about it. [SPEAKER_00]: And so they're more open to talking about it with their local veterinarian knowing that they're not really going to be getting repercussions for about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, well, here in New York, we can grow as much as, well, not as much as we want, but we can, I think it's six plants per adult. [SPEAKER_01]: So we have people all over. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like, you can go and get weed on every corner now. [SPEAKER_01]: Same thing with Colorado and a lot of different places.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Carolina is so. [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely, yeah, I mean, it's, and it's not even so much like people are openly talking about it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's, in New York, you can smoke weed wherever you can smoke cigarettes. [SPEAKER_01]: So, where, you know, dogs are picking up, you know, roaches and weed, and like they would cigarette butts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's no big deal, and I'm assuming, you know, obviously from everything that we've talked about, which has been awesome, it's been, [SPEAKER_01]: the dosage is the key, right? [SPEAKER_01]: If they eat a little bit, probably no big deal, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, there's this outfit get difference between CBD and actual marijuana with THC, but yeah, I just didn't know if that was, it's interesting actually really interesting that the patterns in society and how much people get into or how much dogs get into stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was a [SPEAKER_01]: I did a pet CPR and first aid course for a long time. [SPEAKER_01]: I taught it. [SPEAKER_01]: I was a student and then I became an instructor. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the very first things that we do for first responding is cap refill, capillary refill. [SPEAKER_01]: And for those of you who don't know what that is, it's essentially lifting your dogs, jowls up and pushing against their upper gum and then removing your...

[SPEAKER_01]: finger to see the capary refill. [SPEAKER_01]: And typically, if I remember correctly, it's like you want to see a cap refill at like two seconds to three seconds or something. [SPEAKER_01]: But if it's longer than that, you know, you could have issues. [SPEAKER_01]: So my question is, is that still a thing for toxicity?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you, if you assumed your dog got into something or if they're acting a little off, is that something that you would recommend dog owners try to do like a cap refill test? [SPEAKER_00]: You could do that, but to be honest, I think for most toxins, if you're going to see a change to the capillary refill time, by the time that's there, there are so many other signs that are probably already showing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, yes, you can do it. [SPEAKER_00]: But the one thing that I would probably look at more is their gum coloring. [SPEAKER_00]: So, if they got into one of those rat baits that causes bleeding issues to occur, are they in anemic? [SPEAKER_00]: Did they get into, you know, unins and garlic?

[SPEAKER_00]: Were they're in anemic, or a seed of benefit? [SPEAKER_00]: Is they're done coloring? [SPEAKER_00]: Are they pale? [SPEAKER_00]: Are they really pale? [SPEAKER_00]: That's probably the thing that we're going to notice most. [SPEAKER_00]: commonly with certain toxins as opposed to the actual capillary refill time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now that certainly can be an indication of hydration status or are they really dehydrated or not and that can help determine that's really dehydrated and unfortunately we can't just put a bowl of water in front of our dog and expect them to rehydrate themselves. [SPEAKER_00]: They usually require some type of fluid therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that might be a bigger thing but for me I look at some signs I look at at home would be [SPEAKER_00]: are they neurologically appropriate so do they are they are they looking at you are they following you do they seem mentally alert are they swaying back and forth are they having difficulty walking or even standing still standing straight [SPEAKER_00]: Are they shaking?

[SPEAKER_00]: And are they shaking or do they have body tremors? [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if an animal is shaking, they can stop it. [SPEAKER_00]: You can get their attention, you can change their focus, and they can they will stop shaking. [SPEAKER_00]: If they have true body tremors, neurologic tremors, they can't stop that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They can't control it. [SPEAKER_00]: So, [SPEAKER_00]: They might be walking and tremoring. [SPEAKER_00]: They might be looking at you interested in what you're saying, but they're still tremoring. [SPEAKER_00]: You can't stop that behavior. [SPEAKER_00]: So those are the things that I'm really looking at that if they have potentially been poisoned and then obviously vomiting and diarrhea but anything can cause vomiting and diarrhea in an animal.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those are things that I'm going to say. [SPEAKER_00]: This is an urgent call. [SPEAKER_00]: This is an urgent trip into your veterinarian. [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned it earlier, but we didn't really talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: Snake venom, obviously, can be a very, very, very dangerous thing, but it can also be a very real thing for people who live in areas with a lot of poison of snakes, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So how much of that do you guys see and how do you guys treat that? [SPEAKER_01]: And is that something that the veterinarian is equipped with, typically? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So we certainly do receive calls with regarding snake bites. [SPEAKER_00]: There's not one of our top calls that we receive.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's quite lower on the list. [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason being, when I lived in a, when I lived in an area that had many venomous snakes, you get really good, really quick at treating [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of pet owners may call us first, but often their first call is to their veterinarian.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then the veterinarian says, call pet poison help line to let them decide if this needs to be seen or not. [SPEAKER_00]: If a pet owner were to call their veterinarian and said, my dog just got bit by a rattlesnake, they would say, come in. [SPEAKER_00]: we know how to treat this. [SPEAKER_00]: We know what to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's not much of a, and it's true, those makes the poison and snake venom. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know, is it a dry bite or is it a, or was it a not a dry bite, but that's not a way for us to quantify. [SPEAKER_00]: We can't quantify that in the clinic. [SPEAKER_00]: we do see calls certainly we certainly get calls from that and we're depending on the snake depending on the snake and the animal status would we recommend antivenom would we recommend other medications do we recommend you know maybe a mechanical ventilation and things like a call snake might need that so really a lot of it is that being dictated by [SPEAKER_00]: what is starting to happen with the pet because, because, again, we don't know, was it a dry bite or was it a, you know, was venom actually injected?

[SPEAKER_00]: And how severely affected are they becoming? [SPEAKER_00]: So that is a lot of effort on the, the heroics of the people, the veterinarians in the clinics that are with their eyes on that pet making those decisions. [SPEAKER_01]: and assuming, you know, and I know the number one thing for anybody or anything getting bit by a snake is to identify the snake.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Ideally, for sure. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you can't identify the snake where I lived when I was in a than area, there were your choices were a rattlesnake, copperheads, or water-mockenset, water-mockenset, cotton. [SPEAKER_00]: It was in Texas. [SPEAKER_00]: That in Texas.

[SPEAKER_00]: So those were those were my three options. [SPEAKER_00]: So if they said we didn't hear, you know, we were outside with the pet. [SPEAKER_00]: We never heard a rattle. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, probably not a [SPEAKER_00]: Or somebody says, yeah, we've seen, we've seen copperheads. [SPEAKER_00]: I had one where it was a doxin and it went under the in the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: It went the front of the house. [SPEAKER_00]: It went under the a tree that was in their front yard and was was bit by copperhead and the owner that heard the dog cry out the owner saw the snake and they knew exactly what it was. [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's others where they say, I heard the rattle.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't see it happen, my dog cried out, but I did hear the rattle. [SPEAKER_00]: So that certainly helps us. [SPEAKER_00]: And then in the cases where they say, gosh, I don't know, this looks like I think this was a, I think this was a snake bite, then we start to, [SPEAKER_00]: They do start to show themselves the type of best to what type of snake it was based on what the wound looks like, if it looks, you know, if a wound develops what their clinical signs, what their symptoms become, it starts to allow, you know, that veterinarian to say, okay, this is more fitting for this, or this is more fitting for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And how much or, yeah, no, that makes sense. [SPEAKER_01]: Because I mean, I couldn't imagine, I mean, that's got to be a scary thing to hear. [SPEAKER_01]: If you know you're in rattlesnake territory and you hear a rattle, I always think about that because I go to a lot of, I travel the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: I go to Australia a lot to work and I'm always like, man, not that I don't think they have rattlesnakes, but they have, you know, pretty, they have brown snakes and all sorts of crazy stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, as like, man, if I heard a rattlesnake, it's like, where do you go?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like detonating, like, you try to identify, [SPEAKER_01]: We're coming from how much do you guys ever get any calls on like potential spider bites for areas that have like a lot of spiders I'm assuming that's a thing a lot for cats or something. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely. [SPEAKER_00]: So not very many calls on those that we do get them usually for brown recluse or black widow spider [SPEAKER_00]: They think it might have been a spider because they've seen spiders in their household, and so that allows us then to say, okay, what, what region of the country are you in, is this something that we would expect to see scorpions are another one in Arizona, there's the bark scorpion, which is a concern, but there are a lot of other different species of tie types of scorpions that are less of an issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just so we can kind of look to see what what part of the region, a buffo toads, Colorado toads, Colorado King toads, you know, if you're in Minnesota and you're dog ingest the toad, it didn't ingest one of those toxic ones, you know, it's a further and more of a southern region. [SPEAKER_00]: We have a great, we have a great resource with us, with Pepe Boys in Helpline, is we have someone who works with us, who is Dr. Dan Kyler, and he is not a veterinarian, but he is one of the world's leading researchers on venomous species, especially venomous snakes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he goes all around the world and studying in researching different snake [SPEAKER_00]: snakes, snake venom, and fortunately he has somebody who has worked with our company for that really is since the inception. [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we do have some of those particular, you know, particular exposures, we're able to utilize him as a significant resource for these types of different exposures.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's incredible. [SPEAKER_01]: And for somebody who has, if somebody needs to call you guys, is, is there a cost involved with calling your hotline? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you have to give people credit card information before you speak to somebody. [SPEAKER_01]: How does that work?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unfortunately in North America, there is no animal poison center that receives any type of government or subsidies funding. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we do have to charge for our services. [SPEAKER_00]: We currently have an $89 US dollar case fee. [SPEAKER_00]: So we certainly take calls all over North America.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll take calls all over the world too if usually it's Americans who are traveling in different areas and then they will call us because they know of us. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's something that we do have to charge for our services, we have to charge for our staff, you know, we have to pay our staff, we have to pay for our technology.

[SPEAKER_00]: We work to have very, very hard to be the most cost effective poison animal poison center in North America, so. [SPEAKER_00]: The good part about the call is that we can make that a determination, do you need to even be seen by your veterinarian or not, so we may be able to avoid that veterinary visit for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if we do send you into the veterinarian, you can be rest assured knowing that it was necessary, it needs to go in. [SPEAKER_00]: And then we can also, in that same fee, then we talk with your veterinarian to say, this is what needs to be done step by step, which helps avoid unnecessary procedures or costs that the veterinarian may do because they are making assumptions, whereas we can say this is specifically what needs to be done.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the any follow-up calls that are regarding that particular case, so your veterinarian might call us 10 12 15 times in the course of treatment of your animal and it's that one time 89 dollar fee. [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's good to know. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Dr. Ernest Schmidt, thank you so much for coming on.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that when when you said when we first started, you go, I don't know what we're going to talk about for an hour and a half. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're going over two hours now and and like I told you, you'd be pretty surprised about how an eager dog owner wants to soak up as much information as we possibly can.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this has been absolutely incredible and super informative, so thank you very much for joining me and taking the time out to speak to all the people listening and watching, where can people find you guys and what's the best way to contact you guys in your website? [SPEAKER_00]: You bet.

[SPEAKER_00]: So our website is petpoisonhelpline.com and what's really nice about that is there are a lot of different resources for you. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a poisons list. [SPEAKER_00]: So you can type in different products different things to see is this toxic to my petternauts you can also kind of scroll alphabetically you can look at a lot of different resources for different blogs and different information.

[SPEAKER_00]: will have seasonal toxic information out there too. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I really like is called toxin trends. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a little tab that you click on that. [SPEAKER_00]: You can select the state that you live in and the top 20 toxins will come up for that state.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can also select your species, dogcat, bird, exotics, [SPEAKER_00]: And the top toxins will come up for that state. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's nice because when you live in New York and someone else lives in Arizona, your top toxins are gonna be different. [SPEAKER_00]: And so what is it that I is a pet owner need to be aware of that my pets could be most commonly exposed to in that state I live in?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can call us at 855-764-761. [SPEAKER_00]: We're available 24, 7. [SPEAKER_00]: We never close. [SPEAKER_00]: We're always open holidays. [SPEAKER_00]: What have you? [SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome to call and get the guidance that you need to make sure that your pet is as safe as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, and I think everybody, including myself, should just put that into your phone, because you just never know what could happen. [SPEAKER_01]: And I know I can speak probably for all the people who call you a lot of the things or random. [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, holy crap, I can't believe that just happened or whatever, you just never know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks again, very much for coming on. [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it. [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you everybody for listening and watching, and we will talk to everybody on the next one.

E321- Toxicologist Reveals What’s Killing Dogs- Dr. Renee Schmid

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