E352- Stop Giving Your Dog Treats… Seriously

0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody, welcome back to the No Bad Dogs podcast and my second YouTube channel. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tom Davis. [SPEAKER_00]: Today we're going to be talking about something really important why you shouldn't be rewarding your dog when you're training. [SPEAKER_00]: slash and I know that's controversial every single time and or using internal and external rewards.

0:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Now if you if you got it doesn't matter if you guys have a puppy you got a new dog your novice your advanced obedient trainer your police dog trainer your whatever doesn't matter we're going to talk about some words that I made up for people to understand what's going on with your dog when you're training and [SPEAKER_00]: I talk about internal rewards and external rewards.

0:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I made them up because I didn't know how else to explain it. [SPEAKER_00]: So if somebody else said this before, I'm sorry that I stole your words, but I didn't, I just, this is how I explained it. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm moving on. [SPEAKER_00]: So internal rewards, these are things that you always have with you.

0:57 [SPEAKER_00]: These are going to be good boy. [SPEAKER_00]: Pat, tap. [SPEAKER_00]: etc. [SPEAKER_00]: Pat on the head, whatever, external rewards, treats, food, ball, tug, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: Things that you have to bring to the table, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So it's going to be external and internal. [SPEAKER_00]: So now that we have that defined, here's what I see all my dog owners do, my clients anyway.

1:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I say, put your dog into a sit, especially when they're learning sit. [SPEAKER_00]: They're learning down. [SPEAKER_00]: They're learning heel, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: The dog sits and the owner's like, oh crap, I'm out of treats. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh crap, do you? [SPEAKER_00]: Honey, do you have my treats?

1:32 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a problem, especially when you're teaching new behaviors. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget this thing right here. [SPEAKER_00]: This thing right here, your lips, your lips right here. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget your mouth. [SPEAKER_00]: You can always, always internally reward your dog, of course, if they're deaf.

1:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But even then, good boy, good girl. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, of course, I do that all the time. [SPEAKER_00]: And when I'm training in a deaf dog, I actually do talk and I feel silly, but it's just a habit. [SPEAKER_00]: But you can still give them attention, give them love, give them affection.

1:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Dogs do not need the food. [SPEAKER_00]: That is just a cherry on top. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, if you guys have followed me for even a day, you know that I use lots of positive reinforcement. [SPEAKER_00]: And some of that is food, but most of it is going to be internal rewards. [SPEAKER_00]: Good sit, yes, great job, et cetera.

2:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, depending on how your marker systems are set up, all those words can mean different things, but for the average dog on or out there, forget I even just said markers and just focus on this. [SPEAKER_00]: When you're out with your dog and you ask them to heal. [SPEAKER_00]: And they're next to you and they're walking at your heels and they're doing good.

2:32 [SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to have food, it's nice to have a ball, but don't fumble for these things. [SPEAKER_00]: If your dog is doing what you want, don't miss that very crucial timing that you need. [SPEAKER_00]: Good heel, nice, good, and then maybe pay him with the piece of food. [SPEAKER_00]: But I've also seen even with my own training.

2:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a South African Master of AKA, a Borble, AKA, a Gorilla, AKA. [SPEAKER_00]: on a rhino, aka a seal, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: You guys get the point. [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times when I'm training with food especially for heel and I'm in motion and I'm giving my dog food. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

3:05 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not a malin-wise, not my dachy, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Their head is usually right here and I'm just dropping little morsels of food and they're taking it like an alligator smooth and seamless. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not that dog and a lot of people out there probably have not that dog, right?

3:20 [SPEAKER_00]: You have [SPEAKER_00]: an average dog that's like goofy and awkward and ill-timed and trying to figure out what you i'm doing good yeah right cool buddy but what i find is is i'm putting that food down and he's dropping it so now i'm in this motion where i'm like good heal yes you're doing good and i give a piece of food and it goes dunk and he's like oh it fell and now that momentum [SPEAKER_00]: And that what we call capturing right we're trying to capture that behavior.

3:49 [SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to teach the dog the moment that they're doing the thing I'm rewarding. [SPEAKER_00]: So when they're in motion, I much rather go, good heal. [SPEAKER_00]: Good heal. [SPEAKER_00]: These are dog owners. [SPEAKER_00]: earmuffs. [SPEAKER_00]: These are called derasional markers.

4:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So as the dog is doing good, we might then end with a terminal marker like yes, and then we pay the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, dog owners, you can listen now again. [SPEAKER_00]: So when the dog is in motion, sometimes it's better for the dog's training and positioning to just tell the dog, [SPEAKER_00]: Good.

4:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Nice. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: We like this. [SPEAKER_00]: That's telling the dog, hey, you're doing great. [SPEAKER_00]: Then maybe at the end, you pay the dog, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You give them food. [SPEAKER_00]: You literally go scoop a cable, scoop your treats. [SPEAKER_00]: You're no bad dog, no, you're not no bad dog, nobs.

4:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And you just put it here and then the dog just eats the food from there. [SPEAKER_00]: That's totally okay to do. [SPEAKER_00]: But don't make your training worse by dropping [SPEAKER_00]: It's the same principles with tug toys and balls the moment you give it to them. [SPEAKER_00]: They're kind of like they're over it right and you really shouldn't be paying your dog until after dog owners close yours That's called that that terminal marker at the end of the session.

5:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and you'll pay the dog really just given him the icing on the cake. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, dog owners do you can there. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just joking obviously when I say this the reason why I'm saying this is a lot of times when I tour different countries or different states here in the US when I do seminars dog owners will come out [SPEAKER_00]: And then they're like, hey, um, I'm a mom of three.

5:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I have two full-time jobs and we got a dog and they're driving me crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: Can you please help? [SPEAKER_00]: I go yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about this. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about that. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I'll go through a system with a dog owner that just needs help and a dog that's looking for guidance and direction and leadership.

5:35 [SPEAKER_00]: My job is to kind of mend that gap right and then I have a lot of dog trainers who are in the crowd They're like Tom I noticed that you didn't talk about your marker system and I noticed that you didn't use your your verbal cues and blah, blah, blah And I say [SPEAKER_00]: this dog owner has so much on their plate they do not need or they do not give a shit about a marker system right they just want to know hey can you help me with my dog teach me how good bad okay and the story for the most part you get a lot of hobbyists out there but not often dog owners out there they just need help right so [SPEAKER_00]: As we're working through this, it's important because so many dogs, so many dogs in training that you lose that time and you lose that capturing the dog does the thing finally does the thing or starting to really catch on I see that a lot with the dog starts to catch on maybe they're sitting consistently three or four times and we're fumbling for food or asking our partner to go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go

6:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and sometimes I'll help him out and I'll just give him food. [SPEAKER_00]: All sometimes I'll pay the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: I'll put treats in their treat pouch, but just remember your dog doesn't need that piece of food. [SPEAKER_00]: Your dog just needs you to validate. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you've done a good job.

6:45 [SPEAKER_00]: The food is the sugar on top. [SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes we miss our timing. [SPEAKER_00]: We miss our execution on paying the dog in the right position, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: Because let's say we give a dog who's just learning a new behavior. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say sit. [SPEAKER_00]: We have the leash, they're on our left side, we ask them to sit, they finally put their butt on the ground and then we turn like this because we're getting food or we're getting food here and then we're we're doing all this stuff and as we're doing this we're dropping food in the ground or we turn over here and the dog gets up and we turn back now the dog sitting in front of us.

7:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So [SPEAKER_00]: There's a skill to pain a dog with food, period, full stop, right? [SPEAKER_00]: There is a skill to that. [SPEAKER_00]: Learning how to take, and a lot of people ask me, I don't have any right here, but a lot of people ask me what I like to use. [SPEAKER_00]: We have made, and this is, again, this is a very organic plug, but we have made no bad dog nubs, which are cubed beef liver.

7:46 [SPEAKER_00]: and the cute beef liver are, I've used beef liver for a while, I used stewed its pro treats, I've used beef liver training dogs pretty much my entire career because they are the best thing at paying your dog because you can take that one piece of beef liver and you can hold it like this and the dog can nibble at it over and over again and you can really pay a dog for [SPEAKER_00]: your entire session with one piece.

8:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I also like to use kibble. [SPEAKER_00]: I have used like freeze dried which are really great and you can use that and it's totally okay but you just make sure like if you're using kibble a lot of times that's too small unless you have a tiny little poppy but I know my big hippo rhino silverback gorilla if I use kibble for him he he he swallows it and it's like a it's like a humpback well he doesn't even know that it went down so he's looking for it and like dude [SPEAKER_00]: and it went down to your pipe already and he doesn't know it and it's a whole thing.

8:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you're also using if you are using food at some point, make sure you're using a piece of food that actually is helpful instead of actually pulling attention away from your training by your dog looking all over the ground or snapping at your fingers and you do this and all that stuff.

8:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So as you're paying your dog, this is typically how I do it, especially with a trained dog or even a dog that's learning. [SPEAKER_00]: We ask our dog to sit. [SPEAKER_00]: We say, yes, good sit and we pay the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, break and then we break the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we get the dog back in a position.

9:13 [SPEAKER_00]: We walk for it a little bit dog sit. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and then we pay the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: So you're using your yes marker. [SPEAKER_00]: As if you guys are familiar with clicker training. [SPEAKER_00]: I remember somebody I remember somebody called me one time. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a clicker trainer.

9:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I go, okay, so you use markers. [SPEAKER_00]: everyone uses markers like that's I mean I don't let me know in the comments if it maybe you know somebody who doesn't use markers but of course we all use markers but a clicker is basically an audible indicator to the dog that they're about to get paid right so if you click and then you pay you click and then you pay I just use yes because I won't I'll lose the clicker 1,000% right so a lot of times when my dog here it's like a charged marker I want to know that the dog when the dog here is yes [SPEAKER_00]: they should be turning around going oh I did something pay me right so it gives us an opportunity to identify to the dog that they've done the thing that we wanted them to do at the bat that exact moment and it helps capture the behavior same thing for healing um what I'll do as I'll put a dog into a heal

10:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Especially even my own, um, mastiv, not my shepherd because she's like level three and she can just do it. [SPEAKER_00]: She wants at this point. [SPEAKER_00]: She's like a retired working dog. [SPEAKER_00]: So when I'm with my mastiv, I'll use my direct good. [SPEAKER_00]: Good. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not paying one out of time, although you can, again, it just, it can become kind of messy, kind of met messy the water there.

10:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but if your dog is healing for longer periods of time, then I do. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll drop good. [SPEAKER_00]: and then 10 seconds later, good. [SPEAKER_00]: So just remember guys that, oh, I forgot my treats, I can't train. [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean anything. [SPEAKER_00]: That means absolutely squat.

10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: You can still use your internal rewards. [SPEAKER_00]: The things that you were born with, the things that your dog also really likes to hear, is your voice good. [SPEAKER_00]: And also, hey, great job. [SPEAKER_00]: You do not need food. [SPEAKER_00]: Although it does help when you're capturing your teaching, your learning, your developing, but if you forget your food or your ran out, it's totally okay, your dog has diarrhea or whatever, just know your dog doesn't need it, your dog doesn't expect it for the most part, but if you add it as good, but you don't need to depend on it and [SPEAKER_00]: Also, make sure that your timing is on board when you're doing this because it could make a break your training.

11:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen using food too much can absolutely ruin dog training 1,000% because they have expectations at the foods coming. [SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden you forgot your food, your dog's fasting, your dog has diarrhea, whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: Now they go, oh, I must have not done it, though this is confusing.

11:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I've seen a lot of dogs not understand the actual queue, which means they do the circus. [SPEAKER_00]: So many of my clients who come in, dog owners, they take their food, which is my chapstick, lip balm, whatever, they take their treat, they say, sit. [SPEAKER_00]: The dog sits, they pay their dog.

11:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So the dog doesn't know the cue of sit coming out of their mouth. [SPEAKER_00]: They know, let me know in the comments below if you're a victim of this, they know that when you do this, they put their butt on the ground. [SPEAKER_00]: So the cue is this and not the word sit. [SPEAKER_00]: So then you get your dog out of contacts, you say dog sit, they go, what the hell is that?

12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you could come up and go dog hippo, and they go hippo, I know that, because the queue is this not the actual word. [SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, when you're in reality, it has no utility. [SPEAKER_00]: Sit doesn't mean anything, recall means nothing, heal means nothing, down means nothing, because the dog is actually being lured with food, and not actually taught the behavior, which might be a whole video of how to get rid of using food and how to sequence out food, which might be a whole other video and podcast.

12:44 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all I have today guys. [SPEAKER_00]: Follow me on sub-stack too. [SPEAKER_00]: I've been making these quick little amount with my dogs, they're peeing in poop and I had these ideas and instead of me sitting because this is what happens. [SPEAKER_00]: I literally was like, today I want to talk about this and I hit record on the camera and I step up here and I put it on my podcast and my second YouTube channel.

13:01 [SPEAKER_00]: My sub-stack essentially is [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be all of my thoughts that I don't have an opportunity to actually put out there, and now I do because I'm just hitting record of the voice memo on my phone, and I'm shipping it out the sub-stack, so all of my words, all of my ideas and all of my thoughts are now out into the universe, whether that's good, better, ugly, you guys can click the link below, whether you're listening to this podcast, or my second YouTube channel, to follow me on sub-stack, and we'll talk to you guys in the next one.

13:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for the support, thanks for listening, thanks for watching, bye!