E410- The Hidden Reason Your Dog Can’t Calm Down - Rose Waldrup Canine Somatics

0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: don't I don't how long do you typically I just told my ride you know try to be back around 12 30 yeah that's probably I don't know time it is now but 11 is that yes I can always world it like told 45 just to play it safe yeah let me just tell her to just all around right now that we're sitting in and just double sector everything audio is reporting good to go [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make this shit out of the world.

0:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Got a new laptop. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: We're just in Nashville working with a client. [SPEAKER_01]: I saw that. [SPEAKER_01]: The golden retrievers. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I got, like, I have a seven year old laptop or something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, it was like, it was like an obese dog running up a hill.

0:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, it was like overheating and panting and [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so hit the right, is there anything colored? [SPEAKER_00]: Hit the right. [SPEAKER_00]: So on the little dial on the front of the camera, you just hit the rope on the front of the camera. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm the screen yet right there.

1:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Hit that and it should turn it on if it's not it's the other side. [SPEAKER_00]: But you're going to have the eye focus on me. [SPEAKER_00]: That's all it matters. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I turned it to white. [SPEAKER_00]: That's just a different camera body. [SPEAKER_01]: You tell me if you need me to move it off.

1:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It should be good right there. [SPEAKER_01]: Sweet. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's rolling. [SPEAKER_00]: That's rolling. [SPEAKER_00]: Just double check that. [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you don't touch that camera though. [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's not on the, the, the body's not on it. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.

1:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Good, good, good, good. [SPEAKER_00]: I just told the staff that we're rolling. [SPEAKER_00]: So we have obviously lots of dogs here. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, we're always just tellers. [SPEAKER_00]: And it kind of depends on the week too, because we tell our staff like, hey, we're having a podcast.

2:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So just we call it Bart Control. [SPEAKER_00]: So I said, just do the best of cancer for like the next hour and a half. [SPEAKER_00]: And we had a vehicle right now. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, beagles are very vocalists. [SPEAKER_00]: So they're like, well, we'll try. [SPEAKER_01]: Once you're at it.

2:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Joining it, Rose, thanks for hopping on the pod. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you introduce yourself to people who are listening and watching. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I am a psychosomatic practitioner for humans and a canine educator teaching people essentially the intersection of nervous system regulation for canines and both humans together, like to kind of tell people were teaching both ends of the leash we actually have a upcoming course about that, but really just giving people the tools.

2:45 [SPEAKER_01]: for themselves and for their dogs to help them move through stress and be able to come back down and regulate and overall create more resilient dogs and people at the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: So, start with the... Yeah, I know there's a lot now that's a lot there. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with the first thing you said.

3:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, psychosomatic practice. [SPEAKER_00]: What is that? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great question. [SPEAKER_01]: That is a mouthful. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, with that perfect human start back over. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't. [SPEAKER_01]: You're good. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't want this.

3:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want that to block your face. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: No, perfect. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, essentially, I'm trained in helping people do like somatic techniques on humans, whether people that have experience like trauma before or people that have different mental health conditions, essentially help those people work through stressful moments.

3:38 [SPEAKER_01]: and essentially help them regulate. [SPEAKER_01]: And I know a lot of these terms, they're being thrown out now. [SPEAKER_01]: You'd be here these all over social media, regulate, semantics, and I can more than happy to break any of that down. [SPEAKER_01]: But I was originally trained in helping people.

3:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And then one day I looked at my dogs and I was like, gosh. [SPEAKER_01]: no one. [SPEAKER_01]: No one's doing this for dogs. [SPEAKER_01]: There's not really a language for nervous systems applying to canines and how we can help them in this lens and so that's really what I became obsessed with is looking at, you know, what's underneath the behavior of the nervous system and so.

4:10 [SPEAKER_00]: How long did you do that with people? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I did, I worked with people for only a year, and I actually got really sick during that period. [SPEAKER_01]: I had late-stage Lyme disease, and during that point in time, I had to stop working with people, because I was just so sick, I was in bed, I'd started to lose feeling in my legs.

4:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a pretty rough season. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know there wasn't a lot of hope the doctors were like, gosh, not much, we can really do. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was kind of a death sentence that felt like, and so I started looking into really the human nervous system. [SPEAKER_01]: And as I started looking into the human nervous system, I realized, gosh, my body had been bracing for years.

4:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a lot of traumatic health things that had happened in my past. [SPEAKER_01]: And so when I started to address my nervous system, [SPEAKER_01]: and do some of these techniques and apply semantics, I actually started to get better. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm in full remission now, and during that process is when I looked at my dogs, and I was like, gosh, you know, if this stuff's working on me, what would it be like if I actually tried this on my dogs?

5:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just started, [SPEAKER_01]: devoting time to working with them and doing these techniques and then I started to see results and I started putting that out there And it blew up people Turns out people really wanted to know more about what we were doing so. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's and it was the lime from a tick.

5:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know where? [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people think that Lyme disease comes straight from ticks. [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I never had like a bull's eye rash. [SPEAKER_01]: Any of that stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: I lived in Iowa and there's ticks everywhere there. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my doctor seems to think that, I mean, it could have been a tick.

5:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Could have been a mosquito. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's different ways that it can be transmitted. [SPEAKER_01]: But I had it probably for [SPEAKER_01]: Six years didn't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd always kind of been sick off and on and then after I had my daughter had a pretty difficult Seussection and I just started hit and rock bottom and eventually I was diagnosed with that and it solved a lot of questions But it didn't really lead me on the greatest path.

6:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, you know There's not a lot of hope for people that have late stage Lime disease. [SPEAKER_01]: There's not a lot that can really do really and there's actually a lot of research starting to come out Or they've realized that some of these people that have it [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually linked to the nervous system to some extent.

6:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you can actually address the nervous system, oftentimes you'll see the symptoms get better. [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of fascinating correlations that are starting to come out. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like in the world of medicine and science with the nervous system. [SPEAKER_00]: So you started that with humans, and then what did, was that something that was self-taught, or was that something that you had to, how did you get into that with humans?

6:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I went online. [SPEAKER_01]: There was an online academy on the West Coast. [SPEAKER_01]: I trained with all these people. [SPEAKER_01]: We had like weekly Zoom meetings, and so I trained with them for about eight months, and you know, we would practice, and you know, [SPEAKER_01]: do sessions with people around us locally and work on doing those things and eventually we had like a final exam.

7:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We had to pass through and coursework and all that stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not something that's hard to find out there. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of different certification pathways for semantics that are now up and coming. [SPEAKER_01]: But finding one that's credible and actually teaches you things about the nervous system that are accurate is kind of hard to find.

7:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very [SPEAKER_01]: We're hearing the word more. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you've heard the word somatics. [SPEAKER_01]: Is this the first time you've heard? [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard it. [SPEAKER_00]: But to me, it just is usually like a woo woo turn, like, exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Which doctor, no, that's the people.

7:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the actual word somatic derived from the Greek word soma, which is the body from within. [SPEAKER_01]: So I always tell people, a lot of people think somatics is the techniques. [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually like the lens of examining the body like from within, like the neurobiology, the physiology.

7:57 [SPEAKER_01]: of how the body's experienced from inside, aka the nervous system. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's kind of a way I like to put it. [SPEAKER_01]: And we tell people a lot of our work. [SPEAKER_01]: It's based in science because so many people, like you said, they go, that the whole other side, and I've been out there trying to really prove the actual data, the numbers of how this actually works within us and dogs.

8:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, [SPEAKER_00]: So, were your dogs having issues or were you just like, I want to learn more about my dogs and the semantics or how did you, when you looked at your dog and you said, okay, like, yeah, this, this is fascinating. [SPEAKER_00]: Was there something going on with your dog at the time?

8:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so being fully transparent, we have a golden retriever, and then we have a strafford shire terrier. [SPEAKER_01]: And the golden retriever, she, her name's Bree, she's always been kind of anxious. [SPEAKER_01]: She got a lot more anxious when I was sick. [SPEAKER_01]: I noticed that, and I think there was probably definitely a correlation.

8:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, dogs can pick up on those things. [SPEAKER_01]: And so Tyson or other dog, [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing really had changed too much with him. [SPEAKER_01]: He struggled with a lot of reactivity in his lifetime, something we've had to work through. [SPEAKER_01]: But I really wanted to just see, can this actually change, breeze behavior, like her being so overwhelmed at times?

9:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she was a very hyper-vigilant dog. [SPEAKER_01]: She's gotten better at that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I noticed, and people even are family noticed, like after doing this consistently for months, that she's less jumpy, [SPEAKER_01]: She's less hyper. [SPEAKER_01]: She can come down faster.

9:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we even have like pet paste callers. [SPEAKER_01]: We partnered with them. [SPEAKER_01]: And these callers pull off like her heart rate or her O2 levels, all these different like HRV even. [SPEAKER_01]: These pieces of data that would actually trend upward over time showing us that what we were doing was actually affecting her physiology Which is fascinating because then it was like, wow, this is actually working.

9:51 [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't some, you know Like you said, we were witch doctor thing and so that's why I wanted to show people is like there's actual science like here behind this I mean, I'm I'm cool with witch doctor rules. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, we'll say [SPEAKER_00]: I'm cool, I think it's, I think the more like, almost holistic in which doctor you can get.

10:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because we've moved. [SPEAKER_01]: We've trended a lot that way. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and I feel like we're going so, like I saw conventional, but also commercial. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to just, everybody's trying to make a buck off something. [SPEAKER_00]: I had one of my friends on Angela and she was just like, she uses mushrooms and CVD for everything and it was just, I started using it for my own dogs and I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Wow noticing a big difference in change.

10:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I take I take lines made and try I take that stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: I Blients, but so up some before I came in here. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like that there's so much there's so many benefits. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm cool with that So what did when you say that you started on your dog what are the things that you started to do?

10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so really what I started doing with my dog was kind of what I was doing with myself. [SPEAKER_01]: And so like I said, the word semantics is kind of an umbrella term. [SPEAKER_01]: It can be hands on regulation techniques where you actually put your hand on yourself or your dog. [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's breath work.

11:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's presence, just sitting there, sitting beside your dog, I started out with like putting my hands on my dogs and making sure, first of all, they wanted to be touched. [SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing I teach people is consent with dogs, you know, don't go force yourself, putting your hands on a dog that doesn't want to be touched, that won't end well.

11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that your dog and other people's dog or yeah, so I started with my dogs first because I was like, I need to make sure that this works and I'm going to start with my dogs and so I started doing like these 10 minute sessions a day with my dogs and I just go sit on the floor and my dogs would come up to me and if they like, you know, kind of came and approached me I'd stick my hand out and if they stayed in my space kind of leaned in if their body stayed loose.

11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd start kind of doing some of these techniques. [SPEAKER_01]: There's about anywhere from 12 to 15 techniques that I teach people in my courses. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the most basic ones is like a chest anchor hold where you just simply just put your hand on your dog's chest. [SPEAKER_01]: You just hold it and you focus on your breathing and just honestly just your presence because one of the biggest things at the end of the day and I'm sure you can [SPEAKER_01]: If you're more calm, the dog's going to pick up on that, and so that's one of the main techniques I started with and then I started doing like ear slides where I would take my fingers like at the top of a dog's ear and it's from my fingers down.

12:29 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a nerve, maybe you're familiar the vagus nerve. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, one of the largest nerves in the human body and a dog's body that is connected to the central nervous system and a lot of people kind of call that the nerve that helps you calm the body down. [SPEAKER_01]: And so by touching the ears there's a lot of nerves that connect to that vagus nerve there.

12:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So oftentimes when I would do that I would see my dogs like yon or lick their lips. [SPEAKER_01]: And these were signs within context of other things that I could tell that their body, their nervous system was processing that touch, that input. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was, like I said, in context is kind of the really important clue because a lot of people, I'm sure the dog world you see people that are like, oh my gosh, the dog must be stressed, the yon, they lift their lips, definitely can be a thing.

13:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But I always say, like, the nervous system doesn't speak in words, it speaks in sentences. [SPEAKER_01]: So the whole context, like, was the rest of the dog's body loose, where they relaxed, you know, and if they were looking their lips in that context, didn't me touching them. [SPEAKER_01]: And they seemed calm, their physiology appeared to show that.

13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But then I make that conclusion that, okay, that was actually something that was healthy. [SPEAKER_01]: It was not a stress response. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so a lot of experimenting with that using this techniques, watching every single part of their body to see if it, how it moved, you know, if they're weight shifted forward.

13:50 [SPEAKER_01]: All these clues, which I'm sure you are watching dogs like a hawk all day long. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you see all the things with their body how it changes and how that speaks and tells the story. [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and what it's connected to. [SPEAKER_00]: So when you talk about like the dog yawning and stuff, those are those are just like processes in which the dog is not like I talked about that recently about how a dog you know like a lot of people think like if you watch like a 30 second clip of anybody's dog and they go look at yawning you're stressing your dog out and I'm like [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many variables, like, it could be sirens.

14:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It could be a smell that could be another person. [SPEAKER_00]: It could be a dog, just because of dogs' yons. [SPEAKER_00]: And not for nothing, a lot of dogs, especially, I work with a lot of behavioral dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: So when I get a dog that's already, they come in and they go Tom, my dog's nervous anxious, has been beaten, you know, whatever, and I get the dog in the dog's yawning.

14:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Look, I'm like, that's the dog, that's the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: That's who they are, but I think there's many signs of that body language and how dogs present information. [SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes that yarn and that stress signal, if you will, that general stress signal is, it could be a good thing too, because the dog is communicating, right?

15:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely. [SPEAKER_01]: I actually tell people yawning. [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a pressure valve in a dog. [SPEAKER_01]: So when they yawn, it's a release, you know, and so that can be stressful, or it can be healthy. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, once again, I got to tell people like, if you're a dog, [SPEAKER_01]: is yawning when they look at the window and they see a bike go by with someone on the bike that's probably in context of their body moving tighter rigid that's probably a stress signal that yawning's probably a stress yawning but like if it's late at night and they come sit by you on the couch rest their head on your lap and yawning and they got a loose body that's a sign of cold right there and it's like that pressure just being really so can be good or bad if that makes sense

15:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it does. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like you said, it's context. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, context. [SPEAKER_00]: I've been saying that for years, that context is king. [SPEAKER_01]: It is. [SPEAKER_00]: Especially in, especially in dog training, because you see like, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I've had many situations where dogs have come in and the owners have been like, hey, [SPEAKER_00]: Say, it's Wednesday and they're like, this Saturday, we have an appointment to utilize this dog.

16:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, and we don't know what to do, that you are our last hope and, you know, we have to work with the dog that we have and the tools that we have to use to save the dog's life. [SPEAKER_00]: And especially in dog training, you have this very polarizing thing, especially with context.

16:25 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I love podcasting is because it gives you an opportunity to really get to know somebody. [SPEAKER_00]: instead of just seeing like a 30-second clip of somebody in not having context and I think all humans are guilty of making judgments off that. [SPEAKER_00]: But so when you are doing, so this, can you just, I don't want to say defined semantics, but there's, [SPEAKER_00]: It's connected to the nervous system specifically, or is there other connections within the body?

16:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it connected to respiratory, or is it connected to the brain? [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh. [SPEAKER_01]: No, the most simplest wife I was telling like a four-year-old. [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me, I am... [SPEAKER_00]: I'm that four year old. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I explained things to myself because I have a four year old.

17:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm always trying to explain things and break it down. [SPEAKER_00]: Please. [SPEAKER_01]: Literally, semantics is like the art of teaching the body to move through hard things and then be calm afterwards. [SPEAKER_00]: Love it. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's about. [SPEAKER_00]: I love tea.

17:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm that four-year-old. [SPEAKER_00]: That clicked for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, clicked for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what? [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we get caught in the weeds of all these terms and I think, you know, that's why I always, like I said, I want to try to break things down a way that people can understand and metabolize it.

17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so that's probably the best way to put it. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, life's going to suck. [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to smack you on the face. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can move through that, [SPEAKER_01]: And then come back down and look back and be like, hey, I made it through that.

17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You're building new evidence for your brain that you can do hard things. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we can do for dogs too. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it applies both ways. [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty profound. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not pretty profound. [SPEAKER_01]: It is.

18:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That's cool. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So to me that is like confidence building. [SPEAKER_00]: It is. [SPEAKER_00]: Because I just never connected it with like the nervous system in particular. [SPEAKER_00]: So this morning, I did two things. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: That I didn't necessarily want to do, but I pushed myself through it, which was workout and then cold plunge.

18:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, we talked about doing a lot of research on cold plunging in general. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: I follow Dr. Andrew Huberman a lot on how he presents information about cold exposure, basically voluntary discomfort, and how it rewires your brain, so you know how to deal with, so if you were, so the voluntary discomfort and I'm not Dr. Andrew Huberman, but I'll break it down.

18:48 [SPEAKER_00]: the way that my four-year-old brain breaks it down is if you basically train your brain everyday to do something uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_00]: When you come up, come in inevitably, when you come apart at some sort of stressful situation in your life, you learn how to deal with that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

19:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And your body has been programmed in your pathways and your [SPEAKER_00]: nervous system. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe your brain have been programmed to go, hey, you forcibly get into water. [SPEAKER_00]: That's 30. [SPEAKER_00]: One and a half degrees. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, almost every day.

19:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you've kind of programmed your brain that when stress hits you in a way you go, you're, so it's a threshold. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: So I call it like a, a stressful threshold. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: that your body has, like, even this morning, like, I told you, I've been the last night that we went for a walk.

19:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Every, try to every morning, every night go for a walk as a family with the dogs and the kids and the stroller and the whole nine. [SPEAKER_00]: And I just told my wife, tell her, I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: We've been so crazy for like the last three weeks. [SPEAKER_00]: It's been like the schedules have been non-stop.

19:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And then yesterday, we just kind of landed a couple of deals that we've been working on with our life and things were like, I set out loud. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, now, and I told them I go, guys, and my kids are two and four, basically. [SPEAKER_00]: I say, guys, our nervous systems can now relax.

20:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've just been heightened. [SPEAKER_00]: the stress of travel of Airbnb's and you know if you're in a specifically for us because we're usually in a different country it's like time changes and food changes and even water changes and exercise and your routines and your nervous system is like trying to regulate and so I think that over the years of traveling as much as we have and just learning how to cope with that has helped other parts of my life.

20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, no. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you make so many really good points there, especially with the cold plunging, which I've done that before, and latter aspects, because that's, it takes some balls to do that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, I will say like, what you're doing, essentially, is like, in the term, if we want to say the fancy term for it, is like, predictive processing your nervous system and your dogs.

21:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always asking this question of, [SPEAKER_01]: what's going to happen next based upon past experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: And so when you go do things like that, like cold plunging or you go do something that's difficult and you work through it, you build new evidence for the brain to look back on to predict the current, like the future.

21:22 [SPEAKER_01]: essentially you're changing the future because then you can walk into things that are hard and your brain's like, well, gosh, I've been a 30 degree water. [SPEAKER_01]: This is nothing I can do this. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where gosh, one of the biggest things that I wish people knew is that regulation isn't calm.

21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: it's not the absence of activation. [SPEAKER_01]: It's literally being able to move through it and build that evidence because being human involves, you know, all these wide ranges of emotions and things that we're going to go through and same for dogs. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, perfectly calm dog.

21:57 [SPEAKER_01]: isn't a dog that just sits there. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say a regulated dog is a dog that can go out and play and then come back and be able to, you know, take a nap or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: And it just looks different. [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people are chasing perfection in that realm and it can be exhausting.

22:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And especially if you say with travel and stuff, our nervous systems crave predictability and familiarity. [SPEAKER_01]: And so when you're traveling from place to place, there's really not a space to land. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's one of the reasons why we stop traveling one of the reasons, yeah, because I got saying before we hit record is we were on the road for almost four years.

22:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember specifically, and I've told this story before, but specifically, we were on our way home from dinner at home here in Saratoga and New York and we're on our way home and my son's like, are we going to the Airbnb or we going home like he [SPEAKER_00]: Like his his predictability because that was normal to him like he got to know the Atlanta Delta sky club and pull ease like he was He hit 200 flights by the time he was three like he traveled so much and I think it's helped with like his resilience and Obviously that he's cultured like he's got many many stamps in his passport, but that was one of the reasons why we one of the reasons why we were like, okay we should [SPEAKER_00]: probably pull back the reins a little bit because his nervous system, and I think his life was kind of unpredictable.

23:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I'd have to talk to somebody who specializes in that rather that's a good or bad. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it has this as pros and cons, but [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I mean, I can relate. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we got a four year old and we're on the road and sometimes like, man, you know, having a space to land.

23:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where a lot of times, having people, people can become like anchors, essentially. [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, like, you know, for example, like for your, [SPEAKER_01]: for your son and stuff, like, you know, you guys probably are safe space for him. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that can be a place where the nervous system can land.

23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's all about kind of finding things that help the body feel safe, because that aside from that question of what happens next, the nervous system, like even in this moment, your nervous system mind is asking am I safe? [SPEAKER_01]: And that's how we were wired, primarily to survive.

24:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we had to be taking back every ounce of data from around as, you know, if we were hundreds of years ago back on the prairie, that's how we survived is by our nervous systems accumulating all this data. [SPEAKER_01]: And so now we're in a society where, you know, there's a lot of stimulation and our nervous system is trying to, you know, decode, am I safe?

24:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, you get a text message from someone saying, can we talk in an activates your nervous system? [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like gosh, we weren't wired [SPEAKER_00]: for all this stuff, and so... What's the difference between anxiety and nervous system? [SPEAKER_00]: Meaning that text, but that would do the same thing for me, I'd be like, call me right now, I gotta go, I need to know what, what?

24:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, for real, seriously, I get those texts and I instantly like feel my heart start to race and I'm like, oh gosh, um... You know, did that make sense, that question? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so anxiety in and of itself is something that comes, it's a physiological symptom from the nervous system.

25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: The nervous system is the hub. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the hub inside your body that controls your breathing, your gosh, the way that you move your body, [SPEAKER_01]: It literally, like, your respiration, heart rate, gosh, all these different variables, basically it's basically keeping you alive in this moment.

25:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Your nervous system is connected to your brain. [SPEAKER_01]: It's sending messages. [SPEAKER_01]: The best way to put it is like this. [SPEAKER_01]: So throughout the day, you're brain and your body. [SPEAKER_01]: They're having conversations. [SPEAKER_01]: Your brain is sending 20% of the messages to your body.

25:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Your body sends 80% of the messages to the brain. [SPEAKER_01]: So the body's the biggest communicator. [SPEAKER_01]: Your body is essentially telling the brain. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm safe or I'm not safe. [SPEAKER_01]: And so anxiety is something that can stem from that if it doesn't feel safe.

26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: That can be manifest whether or not like you said, if you start to get, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, a racing heart or like gosh, um, people start shaking. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, anxiety can show up in so many different shapes or forms. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so prevalent now. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you hear everyone that's like gosh, I have anxiety or, you know, that gets me anxiety and it's simply a response from a nervous system that's trying to land and so that distinction.

26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that kind of helps the nervous system is essentially the hub and from that stems out all these different physiological symptoms that can occur. [SPEAKER_00]: So you said that the, what would you say to a dog owner, who said that they didn't need permission, or, yeah, permission from their dog?

26:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think that that's interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you told somebody, like you should ask for consent before you pet your dog. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, to me, I think people would lose their mind. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what would you say if people were like, no, I can pet my dog whenever I want.

27:02 [SPEAKER_00]: They'd love it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I think gosh, from being in in this field and watching and studying people touching dogs and that kind of being really what we focus on, I don't, I think there's times of the day, I mean gosh, I go up and I pet my dogs, I mean sometimes who knows?

27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: There's probably times where they're like, what's that woman doing? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, but when it's in the context of me trying to intentionally help them and do a somatic session with them, [SPEAKER_01]: I want to respect like their body language. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes down to that.

27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think owners that do not know canine body language. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's where it becomes a problem, because you can actually overwhelm your dog. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, for example, and I'm sure maybe you've experienced this, the way that you, like even the pace that you touch your dog, the rhythm of that is important.

27:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, for example, let's just say, you come in the door, your dog greets you, and there are already kind of excited and heightened, and you take your hand and you just start, hey, buddy, how you doing? [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to, that right there, that speed, the speed of your hand is going to send a message to the nervous system activate, activate, because it's fast.

28:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And that, you know, speed, speaks to the nervous system. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you come in and you put the dog slowly, [SPEAKER_01]: You can often see a change with how they react because based upon the speed of how you're touching them And so coming back to kind of the topic of consent You know looking at the dog and front of you.

28:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I always tell people assess and observe like what nervous system are you looking at today? [SPEAKER_01]: Is this a nervous system that's activated? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it a nervous system that shut down, you know, is it a nervous system that's calm and regulated that kind of determines to me what the dog needs from us because I don't know I'm curious what your take is like have you seen people that have overused touch on their dog and it's been detrimental or, you know, I'm kind of curious with your experience if you've seen it activate dogs further when they're already kind of at threshold.

28:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: You'd like, yes, without a doubt. [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the biggest reasons why dogs become anxious, fearful, insecure, co-dependent is too much talking too much touch. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: So to your point, it's kind of making sense, right?

29:15 [SPEAKER_00]: The dog's nervous system is starting to pick up on, well, the person I care about the most mom or dad is touching me because they're nervous and they're going, it's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: It's all right. [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, it's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: They're touching, touching, touching, touching and the dog's going, what the hell's going on?

29:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So then you're kind of firing up the dog's nervous system and you're getting them all like worked up and they're at a constant state of what's wrong. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: It's happening. [SPEAKER_00]: So then what happens is especially for like more protective breeds like, yeah, of course those are German chepards or anything really that's more protective.

29:48 [SPEAKER_00]: What ends up happening is the dog goes, well the person I care about the most is terrified. [SPEAKER_00]: Scared nervous. [SPEAKER_00]: They're not showing good kinds of leadership. [SPEAKER_00]: Like if I came into my I have about 16 employees if I came at all the time And I was terrified and nervous and knew nothing and I didn't know the answers to anything and I was not confident leader It would be detrimental and so that those are the most Reactive fearful insecure [SPEAKER_00]: dangerous dogs and they don't want to be.

30:13 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we created the entire no bad dog movement, the no bad dog podcast, like I see so many owners come in and they go, Tom, my dogs this and I go because of you. [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to work on you and I tell people all the time, I'm not in the dog business, I'm in the people business.

30:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Dogs are super easy, like very, very easy, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So I see that a lot, and unfortunately it's so detrimental to dogs that majority of dogs who get put in the shelters are because owners bring them in to their home. [SPEAKER_00]: And they touch them, and they grab them, and they squeeze them, and they talk to them, and they're just constantly, and the dog is like, I don't know what you're saying, what you mean, because these are things I've never been taught.

30:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So when we teach dogs, cues or behaviors sit, we use positive reinforcement over time to teach a dog. [SPEAKER_00]: What a behavior is, place, down, recall, leave it. [SPEAKER_00]: It's predictable. [SPEAKER_00]: I go, I know what this means. [SPEAKER_00]: So if they get corrected for it, they get punished for it.

31:07 [SPEAKER_00]: They go, that's fair. [SPEAKER_00]: I knew why that happened. [SPEAKER_00]: If they get rewarded for it, same thing, and what happens is, is when dog owners are saying it's okay, it's just your uncle Timmy, it's like nine things. [SPEAKER_01]: That's like, today I don't know all those words.

31:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, and I tell people like this creates a lot of ruffles, a lot of feathers when I tell people stop talking to your dog. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a caveat to that, like context, like we've talked about. [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a really good relationship with your dog, and you can tell your dog to down or sit or stay or recall under any circumstance, you can read your dog, the insightful PDA every night, and it doesn't matter.

31:39 [SPEAKER_00]: However, if you look at your dog and you say sit and they're like, the hell's that? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you go, do you want to go for a walk? [SPEAKER_00]: It's a really nice day. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you just told your dog 11 things and they don't know anything.

31:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you're continuing to take steps back over communicating, over touching. [SPEAKER_00]: I just had a client and recently she had a German Shepherd that wanted to eat me. [SPEAKER_00]: While she had the leash, as soon as I took the leash, the dog could care less and only was wanting to get back to mom.

32:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And she was perplexed, the owner. [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I don't understand. [SPEAKER_00]: She just wanted to kill you. [SPEAKER_00]: I said your dog is not reactive. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Your dog is reactive to you. [SPEAKER_00]: You are the reason. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: The cause.

32:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But unfortunately also the solution to all this. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: So your relationship with your dog is what's created all of this and when you watch your handle the dog to your point She's constantly so her Her anxiety and her behavior is what's causing the dog to react.

32:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: She's touching. [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay. [UNKNOWN]: Oh [SPEAKER_00]: Constantly constant be the same thing right now if I was like hey, hey, um, hey like cracked out You'd be like you and your nervous system would be on edge probably like I don't yeah Feel so safe.

32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Remember in this one time I did I did a lot of work with wolves back in the day. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow. [SPEAKER_00]: This goes exactly to what you were just saying like exactly [SPEAKER_00]: They did a, they did a tour to local colleges across the country. [SPEAKER_00]: They're from Colorado.

33:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And they did a local tour with colleges and one of the colleges kind of local to here in New York. [SPEAKER_00]: So I met them and there was like, they call them Ambassador Wolves. [SPEAKER_00]: So Wolves that were born in captivity, essentially. [SPEAKER_00]: And they're pretty much like Ferrell.

33:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, decently, OK, it Wolves to be around humans. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's a wrong stage. [SPEAKER_00]: See if students [SPEAKER_00]: And I just was asked to handle one of the wolves on stage that I knew because I visited the wolf on Colorado. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'm nervous. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

33:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm doing this. [SPEAKER_01]: Tatch, really good. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: She comes up. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the directors. [SPEAKER_00]: She comes up and she like whispers to me or she's like, [SPEAKER_00]: Relax. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, you just said, like, yeah, every, like, touch and everything.

33:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It, it didn't feel like you nailed that when you gave that example of your client there and stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I like to tell people imagine that there's like an invisible cord tied from you to your dog. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a constant nervous system communication loop, like even us right now talking, you know, our nervous systems are already in each other's physiology, whether or not we realize it, like in same with dogs, when we're with them, when we are around them in close proximity, they pick up on our physiology, gosh, they've even done studies and stuff we didn't the very beginning, [SPEAKER_01]: We would have, like, I'd be hooked up to a monitor and I'd have Bri hooked up to her collar that measured her heart rate and stuff.

34:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd walk in the room and I would practice getting kind of heightened to see what would happen to her heart rate and it would go up. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I would do deep breathing and then it would come down and they've done extensive research and they're doing even more now because it's fascinating.

34:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But our physiology literally influences theirs. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and I know a lot of people can feel guilt from this and be like, oh my gosh, I'm ruining my dog and it's like, no actually there's awareness is the first change or awareness is the first step to lasting change. [SPEAKER_01]: We can be aware of where we're at and start to change things that can impact our dog immensely, but it's like there's this invisible cord that connects you guys and I'm sure, like I said, you see that daily, I mean we are part we are definitely part of [SPEAKER_01]: The problem there, and that's why, like you said, you see so many dogs at shelters, whatnot.

35:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I love no bad dogs, because behavior is simply an expression of the nervous system. [SPEAKER_01]: And when people understand that the behavior is usually the last thing we see that underneath that, there's been a communication, a whole conversation happening physiologically long before a dog lunges or bites someone.

35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It gives different context to dogs and not just labeling them as well as a bad dog, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It's powerful. [SPEAKER_00]: My dog Lakota can telepathically. [SPEAKER_00]: It's swear telepathic. [SPEAKER_00]: No, just by how I'm moving what I'm going to do.

36:05 [SPEAKER_00]: yeah unbelievable like I almost thought about doing like a test where I would be like yeah like I would write down what I'm gonna do and she would know what I'm gonna do like it is you should do that if I'm believable because when I don't bring her out like a lot [SPEAKER_00]: Um, she's friendly and everything.

36:26 [SPEAKER_00]: We just don't. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: We just don't bring her out. [SPEAKER_00]: But when we do people are so fascinated by how engaged she is, she's a Dutch shepherd. [SPEAKER_00]: So she's very intense and her eyes like she's just like she kind of like reads you and like she can see it's very expressive.

36:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for an example, if I'm downstairs and I'm working. [SPEAKER_00]: And I come up stairs and in my head, I'm like, I'm going to bring her for walk, I don't say anything, I don't grab anything because she doesn't, I don't, she doesn't ever have a leash on. [SPEAKER_00]: So she just knows by the way I'm moving that it going to do.

37:01 [SPEAKER_00]: There's times where I come up in stairs all day long for food snacks, coffee, whatever the heck it is, and she doesn't move. [SPEAKER_00]: But the one time out of the 20 times a day, because my office is downstairs in my home, I come up to bring her for a walk. [SPEAKER_00]: She jumps up and she's like, that's it, whatever you're doing.

37:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, I've been thinking about that lately, like, it's just how, I don't know how she reads it. [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it blows my mind. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the thing is, is like, if you think about it, Mingosh, our dogs, like their world revolves around us. [SPEAKER_01]: They study every single thing.

37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they study how we breathe. [SPEAKER_01]: They study our micro movements. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like you said, it does feel like telepathic, like they know. [SPEAKER_01]: They have it so honed in. [SPEAKER_01]: There, it's like you said, like they're literally studying us inside and out.

37:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's really cool. [SPEAKER_01]: You brought that up because I feel like that's where dogs can become one of the biggest mirrors in our life. [SPEAKER_01]: For you know like I'm sure you have moments where your dogs revealed stuff about yourself or like you know in vice versa and it's like gosh wow like they are our greatest teachers.

38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like truly [SPEAKER_00]: If you, yeah, if you listen, if you listen, no, exactly, well, that's the thing. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the problem. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure you'd say this. [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the biggest problems in the dog world is we don't know how to listen.

38:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, a lot of us don't know how to stop and slow down and observe our dogs and actually listen to what they're trying to communicate. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you probably say, gosh, you see that on the daily. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's once dog owners realize how easy it is, they are like to them.

38:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like like profound, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, I remember that same session with that shepherd. [SPEAKER_00]: I was just teaching the owners. [SPEAKER_00]: Like the dog was, so let's say the dog was looking at them. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was behind the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: I gave the dog a little bit of leash pressure and then I put my excuse me my shoulders down and just backed up yeah and then the dog came right to me and they were like, how did you do that?

39:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, they just, little things like that that you're, I think I would assume your average dog trainer would know like how to recall the dog with your body, but for most dog owners, they don't realize how much what you said is about they pick up on your body language and everything that you do like Lakota is just on another, my dog, she's on another level.

39:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how she does it, it's so fascinating to me, like I will, and I'll do it in different parts of the house too. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Where she just knows, like, and again, there's no trigger, so normally it'd be like the leash or the treat pouch or some item that comes out or something.

39:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I just have it in my head, I'm gonna go outside, and she just picks up, picks up, she gets up, she's like, it's time, and I'm like, how did you know that? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, out of it, I just came up stairs 10 times, and then the 11 time I came up stairs to, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: What she picks up on or she's like it's time and I'm like that's wild Because I don't like I said I don't say anything.

40:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but dog owners what would be your advice for dog owners on how they can understand them better I mean gosh, I'd say two things first off get up a little bit of them. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd say first off two things slowing down You know if we could learn the art of slowing down [SPEAKER_00]: What, define that?

40:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the art is slowing. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, simply, it sounds like a book. [SPEAKER_01]: It does sound like a book. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it needs to be a book. [SPEAKER_01]: Just creating an unhurried life, essentially taking things a little bit slower. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we live in a hustle culture, right?

40:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's go, go, go. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we get up in the morning in a lot of us are just rushing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm guilty of that, you know, we pull out our phones, start scrolling, you know, do XYZ. [SPEAKER_01]: But if we could learn to actually be in the moment and be present, you know, so many of us live in the past or the future and be in the present, we would be able to see the dog right in front of us and actually observe what's going on.

41:15 [SPEAKER_01]: in their body. [SPEAKER_01]: So I tell people to slow down, to actually start listening to their dog's body. [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, the question is, it will have, do I listen to my dog's body? [SPEAKER_01]: And I would tell people, start being curious. [SPEAKER_01]: Like curiosity is one of the best things that we can do.

41:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's non-judgmental. [SPEAKER_01]: And like for ourselves, like with humans and semantics, one of the biggest things we teach people. [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of like feeling shame or guilt over feelings that we [SPEAKER_01]: Be curious about them. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Why does that exist?

41:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Why do I feel that? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, same with our dog, start being curious. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, why are there ears up like that? [SPEAKER_01]: Is there something in the environment that did that? [SPEAKER_01]: Or why is there body rigid right now? [SPEAKER_01]: Like looking and just being like almost like a student of your dog, like watching their movements and just becoming like just becoming more curious because once you can understand.

42:07 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the three nervous system states, there's three main states that we exist in throughout the day, and that's why I teach people if they could understand and know, okay, gosh, they're in an activated state right now, or they're in a shut down state or they're calm and regulated, knowing the difference between those three, then allows us to apply necessary things that can actually help our dog.

42:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm guilty of that too. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the first things that I do in the morning is our dog sleeps in the corner of our room and a big bed. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: In the morning, I'll go up. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, right when I get out of bed, the first thing I do is usually a give her attention.

42:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the only time in the day for most people, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's the only time of your day where it's not. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I like what you said, you're either living in the future of the past, you're either making decisions about what you're doing in the future or you're trying to help a decision that you already made.

43:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you're scheduling or you're thinking about what you're going to eat for dinner or what the kids have going on that night or whatever you're constantly in the like the management stage of your life. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, management stage. [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

43:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Which I think is normal. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's not a lot of people in life that just wake up and go. [SPEAKER_00]: I got nothing, nothing to do. [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing to do. [SPEAKER_00]: That life doesn't exist. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think really for anybody.

43:37 [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the first things I do in the morning is just give my dog attention because I know that that's the only time that that's going to happen. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I mean, as crazy you say that about, you know, the past in the future and I thought about this the other day, someone brought it up.

43:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Dogs don't live in the past or the future. [SPEAKER_01]: They live in the present, like their sense of time is so vastly different than ours, you know, because we have a much more complex brain that we can go into the past and some of us literally live there, or some of us live in the future with anxiety.

44:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But dogs are literally the most present creatures. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's that's why they teach us, you know, how to just stop and just be present and don't you think it's also breed specific to yes I would say genetics there's so much that goes into that you know every dog is different has different needs they're wired differently I think that that plays a huge role you know versus small dogs large dogs working dogs all that stuff definitely [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did a, I actually posted it last night in my Instagram story.

44:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I wear, I did a, I did a, um, like I'm filming a docu series about basically about working dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, cool. [SPEAKER_00]: This is funny. [SPEAKER_00]: Like my editor sent me over like V, like V1. [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a, we're talking and they hurt, they're border collies in Montana.

45:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And they, [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I saw this. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like you and I talking. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: The goats are all basically in between our legs and around us. [SPEAKER_00]: And the border collie is just circling. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny.

45:17 [SPEAKER_00]: You can see the dog circling us as we're talking. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just going around and around. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just interesting because I'm even with Lakota, my shepherd. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: She's very like work oriented. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think people don't realize the difference between a working dog and a pet dog.

45:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: And that gets a lot of people into trouble. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: It also, I think, is one of the reasons why there's politics in dog training. [SPEAKER_00]: I agree. [SPEAKER_00]: Because most pet owners who live with a really doll-style unicorn, [SPEAKER_00]: dog who doesn't have any behavioral issues, isn't dangerous, doesn't give them any, you know, they can live with that dog a certain way, they can also train that dog a certain way.

46:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But then when you get something different, you have just like with any animal, really, you're going to have to use different exercises, tools, and techniques to make things safe and fair for the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: And so [SPEAKER_00]: Like, even with Lakota, I always say like, jokingly, like, Jeffrey Dahmer could have a Frisbee and she'd be, you know, his best friend, like, she does care, she doesn't care.

46:25 [SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't care at all, but like, there's other dogs who are very sensitive and they can maybe pick up on different things and they're not like, again, Lakota would she's so focused on. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, ball for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like that's her life. [SPEAKER_00]: That's her life.

46:39 [SPEAKER_00]: What there's other dogs that are more oriented towards relationship or like they're a one person show. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah type of thing with the semantics of what you're doing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah with dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think the biggest problem dog owners have right now with what you're doing and what you're seeing.

47:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say it probably is tailoring to the needs of the dog and front of them. [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people see what I'm doing and I think it's a one-size-fits-all approach. [SPEAKER_01]: Just like, oh, oh, here's some techniques. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just go throw it on the dog and try it and then they turn around and they're like, well, that didn't work and a lot of it.

47:20 [SPEAKER_01]: isn't just one size fits all. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, every single dog is different. [SPEAKER_01]: They have different ranges of social flexibility. [SPEAKER_01]: They were bred for different jobs. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, epigenetics, you know, temperament, all these things. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, me doing chess circles on a golden retriever could look vastly different than trying to do it.

47:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is is that people, I don't think once again, when people get their dogs and I'm sure you can say this too, a lot of us don't do the research on what dog we're getting, they're breed, what they actually require. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that affects doing some of these practices because a dog that, you know, tends to be more activated, you know, might need different techniques versus a dog that tends to be more mellowed out.

48:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And so being able to understand first and foremost, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: this is my dog and you know knowing their window of tolerance which that's another word that gets used to law window of tolerance just to fancy word for essentially the capacity that a dog has or us as humans before we tip into overwhelm.

48:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So like throughout the day we have a window of tolerance. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of our window of tolerances are really [SPEAKER_01]: small. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of ours are larger depending on how we handle stress. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that affects too when we use these techniques knowing, you know, okay, where's the dog at in their day?

48:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Where's their window of tolerance? [SPEAKER_01]: Trigger stacking? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know is that something or, yeah, that's a big that's a big part of this too. [SPEAKER_01]: It's understanding and knowing, okay, have the triggers stacked up in the day for the dog. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I tell people to picture their dog kind of like [SPEAKER_01]: your iPhone battery.

49:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It starts out charged unless you don't charge your phone overnight in your cycle. [SPEAKER_01]: But like, usually it's charged and as the day goes on now, you check messages or emails and then it starts to deplete. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, kind of like your dog, things can happen. [SPEAKER_01]: They go to the park, maybe, or they go on a walk.

49:18 [SPEAKER_01]: The battery starts to go down or someone rings the door bell. [SPEAKER_01]: Different things stack up. [SPEAKER_01]: and so then when someone goes to try these techniques and let's say their dogs are already pushed into overwhelm, they might not work and so a lot of it is, you know, once again being curious observing and knowing the context of where their dog is at and time and space in that day and where their nervous system is at.

49:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm just understanding, and that's important too, because every dog is different. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's the same thing for training too. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, like we just said is, you see a trainer do something with a particular dog. [SPEAKER_00]: It may not. [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people see like the fancy mountain walls online do all the crazy stuff, right?

49:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, God. [SPEAKER_00]: Go on. [SPEAKER_00]: John Leg, do all the fancy healing and then people will be like, what? [SPEAKER_00]: I tried and I bought the course and I did this and I did that. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: You're never going to turn this sharp hay into a mountain wall, like it's not going to happen, you know?

50:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that that's really important for people too. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that is part of why there are so many dogs there. [SPEAKER_00]: suffering in many different ways. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's why also just in life, again, when the dog training industry, too, there's like this unfortunate divide where because people don't understand that there's a huge spectrum of behavior, dogs, training thresholds, like there's certain dogs, like I know people, [SPEAKER_00]: that their best dog is a pet owner's nightmare like you know some of the police guys that want a really aggressive balls to the wall will bite anybody dog like they actively search for that and then the dog owner is in tears.

51:02 [SPEAKER_00]: spent three years in ten thousand dollars trying to get rid of something as somebody else's dream. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's interesting to to see the variations to your point of this, these thresholds of work. [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think other other things to to be mindful of is the genetics of dogs.

51:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting thing what you said about the genetics of making sure you know your breed and you know your genetics and you know what you're getting but there's also a huge risk in genetics too because I see a lot of people who get dogs who the dog that they get like a German shepherd and they end up [SPEAKER_00]: not being like their ears don't pop up and they got them for a police dog and they end up being a service dog instead.

51:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So there is variance to that too where you do get a dud or you get a dog that is not like you might get like oh I got this dog and they're going to be like this it's like it's also not guaranteed that either. [SPEAKER_00]: You could get a really well bred dog and let's say they have seven puppies.

52:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Six puppies are well bred, they're stable. [SPEAKER_00]: they're tolerant, they're predictable, and then you could get one puppy that grows up in matures to not be. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's important too is we have to like bring that scope in granularly and just keep looking at genetics will give you a certain range of [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this dog is, yeah, it's going to be big.

52:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably going to be protective. [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably, you know, course, so is a really popular right now, but not every course, so is big, bad, and scary. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it doesn't always mean that. [SPEAKER_00]: So I always, like, take that with a grain of salt sometimes and people are talking about, well, I have a, like, it is, like, there are certain breeds.

52:44 [SPEAKER_00]: There's, there's only a certain, like, there's only a couple different breeds in the world that I would be, I know what I'm going into. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like a sheepy he knew is one of them. [SPEAKER_00]: I know that when I go into a session with a sheba, I know what to expect. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

52:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Border collie would be another one. [SPEAKER_00]: And those are the two things off the top of like top of my head that I would be like, those are going to be pretty consistently bred, yeah, behaviorally consistent dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you, you tell me you got a German Shepherd, I'm like, that's like you tell me you're eating food, I'm like, what kind?

53:18 [SPEAKER_01]: What kind? [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's the pet, there's the show, there's the working, there's the check, there's the, it, it, so I think a lot of pet owners kind of get really Focus and almost like obsessed with some breed sometimes when they go out and it's different. [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking at mom and dad and you know the breeds and you're seeing the puppies like that's different.

53:47 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why service dog training is they use a particular gene pool. [SPEAKER_00]: like they typically are like okay this gene pull of black labs we've been breeding for I don't know 30 years or whatever and we know that this dog is going to take two years of training it's going to be 30 thousand dollars and it's going to save somebody's life consistently like over and over again and we know that when they go into a supermarket and a kid runs by and bumps him on the head they're not going to care yeah like those are genes that you can pretty much bet your money on but yeah unless you have a breeding [SPEAKER_00]: a long, long time and weedy now, any, like a dog that bites somebody unpredictably.

54:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't ever breed that, whatever, mom and dog. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't ever do that one again. [SPEAKER_00]: You always, like, and I think that that's important too for a lot of dog owners to realize, because I work with a lot of shelters. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: I work with a ton of rescues.

54:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I obviously work with a lot of dogs and their owners, and I think like buying a pure bread dog for a lot of people is like blasphemy. [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, [SPEAKER_00]: There's also, like, when you're buying a dog for a particular reason for a particular thing, you have to be, you know, you might want it for a particular thing when you go to the shelter.

55:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, just in my life, I just already know like, it's also a crap shoot. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It is. [SPEAKER_00]: You never know. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Genetics. [SPEAKER_01]: I really like how you said that because I think there's so many things that go into that.

55:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you said sometimes, you know, like there's nuances in that and I think that's what people need to be more aware of and, you know, when you said you work with shelter dogs and all that stuff, you don't know unless you're doing a DNA test. [SPEAKER_01]: and stuff like that, which even then, you know, you don't know sometimes how accurate, but I think that, yeah, that's a really good point that you made there with that.

55:38 [SPEAKER_01]: People kind of, you know, knew more about that. [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, there's just, I feel like there's a lot of trends right now with breeds. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you see that. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, gosh, dogs are not trends. [SPEAKER_01]: They, it's sad that that's kind of what it's um.

55:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I don't love when any outlet no matter if they know what they're talking about or their full shit. [SPEAKER_00]: They put out a thing of like worlds, smart as dogs and it's usually like border collie, mountain wall, poodle, like whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, I'm like, oh, or a movie comes out.

56:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh gosh with the dog and it's like, and that's the thought after breed. [SPEAKER_00]: All the because the problem is is all the training, well, not the problem. [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is is a lot of pet owners don't realize and maybe some of them do and don't care that unfortunately, I would say more than 50% of people who are selling dogs are only doing it for money.

56:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: They're not doing it for temperament or looks or confirmation or to be cancer and disease free. [SPEAKER_00]: They're not looking at, you know, any of that. [SPEAKER_00]: They're just looking at. [SPEAKER_00]: uh... okay uh... chanetate and just put a movie the mountain wall let's go let's go let's go get as many mountain ones as we can breed the crap out of them gosh that ones i know that put them on facebook and collect our checks and then again these these poor families who bought this mountain one you know in a walmart parking lot for five hundred bucks [SPEAKER_00]: because they saw the movie and the kids saw the movie and they're like, wouldn't it be cool if our dog could do all that stuff on the big screen?

57:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And then six months later, the dog is biting people and, you know, they have to potentially put the dog down and it's this tragedy, where they're like, you know, that rips their whole family's hearts out because and it's like, man, so that sucks to see. [SPEAKER_00]: When you're working, so right now are you working [SPEAKER_00]: with clients.

57:21 [SPEAKER_00]: How does your system work? [SPEAKER_00]: Are you or are you just putting out educational content for people to try at home and doing courses? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. [SPEAKER_01]: So right now, like in the beginning, I started doing a lot of shelter work. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd go into shelters and rescues and I would do hands-on work, which that was very, very interesting, and got a lot of [SPEAKER_01]: But moving forward, we've trended more towards releasing educational courses and whatnot.

57:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Not that I don't foresee myself going back into shelters and rescues, but there is a certain line of risk, though, too. [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, dogs, as you know, are unpredictable. [SPEAKER_01]: And you got legal. [SPEAKER_01]: There's the legal exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Couldn't stay quiet.

58:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny, though. [SPEAKER_00]: I did a podcast with, who was Amy Taylor? [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I heard a German Shepherd barking and they can know if your listeners are going to know. [SPEAKER_00]: I knew. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, that was German Shepherd. [SPEAKER_00]: And so for my listeners, this would be a fun game for us to start playing.

58:19 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a beagle barking. [SPEAKER_00]: The peole peole peole can very distinctly tell anyway. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're fine. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you pointed that out. [SPEAKER_00]: With the shelter work, can you just explain to me what you did? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how did you enter a shelter with because from what I'm understanding, you're basically trying to calm the nervous system down of the [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, kind of, you know, once again, I kind of went in there trying to actually assess a lot of their dogs to kind of see what their window of tolerance was.

58:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And so how I'd do that is I'd first get the background on the dog, of course, make sure I did not work with any dogs that had bite history, unless I had a bite suit, which those are just crazy expensive, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not, maybe one day, but [SPEAKER_01]: I would essentially based upon the dog's history, I would go in a room that there was really nothing else in there except just me and I would sit.

59:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't face the door. [SPEAKER_01]: I would just kind of be in a neutral position. [SPEAKER_01]: The dog would come in. [SPEAKER_01]: I would just let the dog sniff me do whatever I would simply observe the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: for you in the kennel, or are you in it? [SPEAKER_01]: So in a separate room, yeah.

59:21 [SPEAKER_01]: The dog would come out of the kennel, someone would handle the dog, drop them off in the room, and then I'd be sitting there, and I'd just watch the dog, and observe their behavior. [SPEAKER_01]: Some dogs would come right up to me and want touch. [SPEAKER_01]: They would instantly be like, hey, I love them live here.

59:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And then some dogs were incredibly touch-erverted, like very shut down, like they would just go in a corner and sit down. [SPEAKER_01]: So what I would do, [SPEAKER_01]: is not assessed to see where their nervous system was at, you know, or they shut down, are they activated, or are they in a pretty regulated, connected state?

59:52 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you do that? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So by body language, essentially, and watching to see how they're moving through, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, time and space. [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, for a dog that's like shut down. [SPEAKER_01]: I had a dog that came in. [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, I can't remember.

1:00:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a mixed breed. [SPEAKER_01]: And this dog approached me and immediately, I didn't even stick a hand out. [SPEAKER_01]: It just tackles when up kind of back to way. [SPEAKER_01]: And I knew I'm like, okay, the dog went over and sat in a corner, did not look at me, and just had this, they were just very tense and tight.

1:00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could tell there was a mixture of some activation and also just shut down as well. [SPEAKER_01]: And so by observing like their body language and just how they moved through the room, you know, they circled, came up to me and then went back in a corner, would make no eye contact. [SPEAKER_01]: I knew this is a dog right now that does not want to be touched.

1:00:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and a lot of this, it's priced down so basic, but a lot of us don't know, like, oh my gosh, some people would try to go up and pet that dog. [SPEAKER_01]: They'd be like, oh, I can pet that dog. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'd observe these dogs like that. [SPEAKER_01]: And for dogs that were activated, typically a dog will come in the room and they'd just be bouncing off the walls.

1:01:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd usually for those dogs that'd be sitting in a chair or higher up. [SPEAKER_01]: And I would, you know, sometimes I'd have like a gate or I'd have my knee up to make sure they couldn't try to mount or anything like that. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: And I would immediately be able to observe just by their breath rate, watching how fast they're breathing.

1:01:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And just like eye contact, you know, ears, all those little micro signals I could tell this dog's definitely activated. [SPEAKER_01]: And so for those dogs, then I would give them space. [SPEAKER_01]: And I would sit there and eventually they come up to me, and a lot of them would let me touch them.

1:01:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And we actually had some really [SPEAKER_01]: really beautiful moments where I was able to get a lot of those dogs to like just sit there. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them would even lay down and it was cool to be able to show people from the start. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a dog that comes in, bouncing off the walls and then when you offer them space.

1:01:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're calm yourself, you know, you're practicing deep breathing sitting there that a dog can calm down and approach you. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it proves that proved a lot of what we're trying to show people is that that relationship, you know, that's important, you know, dogs are picking up on us and just observing to know like where they're at, where they're nervous systems at because a lot of those shelter dogs are on one into the spectrum.

1:02:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I've met. [SPEAKER_01]: a perfectly calm shelter dog yet, which is sad, but it's also, it makes sense. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're in a very small confined space. [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of stimuli. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a brutal environment for a nervous system. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, gosh, if you put yourself on a jail cell for like 10 hours, you probably would be barking too.

1:02:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's, um, [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, the shelter world, it's a whole different ballgame. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a different environment, environment affects the nervous system, just like with humans. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I even tell people plants. [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, if your plant's not growing, is it in the right environment?

1:02:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Does it have enough sun? [SPEAKER_01]: Does it have enough water? [SPEAKER_01]: Move it around. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's why you see shelter dogs that [SPEAKER_01]: come out of those environments and they're a completely different dog. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, they need help. [SPEAKER_01]: They need work.

1:02:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And decompression is important. [SPEAKER_01]: But environment is a really big factor there. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why it's hard for those dogs when they meet a potential new adopter. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: because they don't have the time. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, times have probably the biggest thing.

1:03:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they don't have the skills or experience. [SPEAKER_00]: They see a dog online on like the Shelter's website. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's so cute. [SPEAKER_00]: And then they go and they shut themselves in the corner of the dog. [SPEAKER_00]: And the owners are like trying to go up and touch the dog.

1:03:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And the dog's like, oh, shit. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious what your thoughts are. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, man, we need to get a permit to drive a vehicle. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like people need to take a test to take a dog home from a shelter.

1:03:42 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think it's? [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good question. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's tough because there's, again, there's a huge spectrum. [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of dogs who would be better off in a shelter than in the loving home that they're in. [SPEAKER_00]: True, which is, you know, going to surprise some people, but there's many dogs who, yeah.

1:04:04 [SPEAKER_00]: our shelter dogs and they're like, they love that structure. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Is there, they know their schedule, they know their routine. [SPEAKER_00]: But every, every shelter is different. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I've worked in some really nice shelters that are like, land, yeah, high end, like, yeah.

1:04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Very funded and like have staff and have trainers and have conference rooms and have like actual dog walkers coming in and they have cafes and it's nuts. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that's bougie. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, nice. [SPEAKER_00]: There's one in Kansas City in particular. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of that's why you're really nice.

1:04:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They have, it's just a good, in my, I mean, I don't, you know, the whole operation, but it's just nice. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they have that all those stores. [SPEAKER_00]: It's called Casey Pet Projects. [SPEAKER_00]: Nice. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: I went in there and worked, and anyway, but I think it just depends because when you have, [SPEAKER_00]: It's really tough and I think people who are going in to get it rescue dog or a shelter dog.

1:05:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really like the word rescue dog. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's like just an emotion that humans make on it but a dog that's in a shelter or homeless dog or whatever [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's such a spectrum of quality of life questioning, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Where the dog is in a shelter, you know, they're getting like three hots in a cot, if you will.

1:05:24 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a teacher ahead in high school that would always say that, like, if you guys don't do your homework, you're going to end up in jail and get three hots in a cot, it may be better than sleeping home, whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: I always said three hours in a cot. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good phrase.

1:05:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, if some dogs who like that routine and then they get put into an environment where like the worst thing you could ever do to a dog and this goes against completely what humans emotionally do is they get a dog that doesn't have a home. [SPEAKER_00]: So they feel really bad, and what they do is they bring them into their home, zero structure, zero boundaries, zero discipline, do what you want, when you want, have it your way, beds, treats, toys, stuffies, pull me down the road, don't listen to me, jump on who you want, because we feel bad.

1:06:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is, by far, the worst case is I've ever worked with, the most aggressive, most reactive, the closest to being youth and eyes dogs have been the dogs who people feel bad for and they just allow them to do anything and everything that they want and the dog starts to really spiral.

1:06:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So they go into this environment where they just had all this structure, yeah, and You know, it's discretionary on who says if the dog was happier not it's like and you're head You think this dog is gonna be happier in your home because you're stressed out in the shelter But this dog this is the only thing this dog's known So when they get into the home and there's not the chaos and they're literally like [SPEAKER_00]: free.

1:06:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the dog starts to jump on people, get aggressive, get protective, goes back to, again, like the same type of people who, and this kind of creates the perfect storm of the worst behave, most dangerous dog because of owners and humans is the same type of people. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not, it's ignorance is kind of like, just they don't know.

1:07:07 [SPEAKER_00]: They're not obviously doing it on purpose. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I try to put out many videos on this, but the perfect storm typically happens [SPEAKER_00]: And then they, again, give them, play the land. [SPEAKER_01]: Free rain. [SPEAKER_00]: The dogs are so lose their mind. [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have structure.

1:07:23 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have boundaries. [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have discipline. [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have manners. [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have leadership. [SPEAKER_00]: Literally like everything you could do bad for a dog. [SPEAKER_00]: And then what ends up happening is, is because they feel bad.

1:07:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They do the unthinkable, which is constantly talk to them, to constantly touch them. [SPEAKER_00]: I love you. [SPEAKER_00]: You better hear it in the dogs. [SPEAKER_00]: I go, oh god. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, those two things are like peanut butter and jelly for most of those people, and they're just loving carrying dog owners who are trying to do the right thing.

1:07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But what they don't realize is that, and then the dog starts to get reactive, the dog sets having resource guarding issues, the dog starts to become protective, the dog barks and reacts to everybody when you're out for a walk, and they go, I don't understand. [SPEAKER_00]: That's like, well, here's the thing.

1:08:04 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really simple. [SPEAKER_00]: The dog came into your life not reactive three months later, your dog's super reactive. [SPEAKER_00]: What's the issue? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: You are the variable. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's hard for us to say like getting a dog out of a shelter and bringing them into a home.

1:08:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's actually the dogs happier in the shelter. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And that would like blow people's minds. [SPEAKER_01]: No, actually I love everything you just said because we did have a carousel out there a while back talking about how people think that they're doing the best thing by pulling dogs out of these shelters, like they're giving them the best life.

1:08:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And not saying that there aren't some dogs that have been given incredible lives that have structure and they've been trained well. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's like you said that dog in that shelter, that was their entire world. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for them it's the most traumatic thing to transition out of that into a whole new environment.

1:08:56 [SPEAKER_01]: it's like taking them from their entire life and being like okay well here's all this stuff when you set it's the perfect storm dogs thrive on predictability they thrive on routines and when you give dogs free rain like that and there's no decompression and they have a massive house in a yard or you take them to the dog park right after oh stuff like that [SPEAKER_01]: You're literally, you're flooding their nervous system.

1:09:19 [SPEAKER_01]: You're literally tipping it into overwhelm. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, and I feel it's hard because people think they had the best intentions. [SPEAKER_01]: So like, and that's, it comes back to us as if we knew, if we had more education on what it's actually doing to the canine nervous system.

1:09:36 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's our, we have like a 72 hour decompression guide where we tell people. [SPEAKER_01]: give the dog one room of the house, don't let them go outside of that one room. [SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you have a consistent schedule. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't even talk to the dog. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, things like that that really change the game.

1:09:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I think so many dogs get returned to the shelter or, you know, they end up with you. [SPEAKER_01]: And other trainers, because we don't, we don't understand and we put a lot of human projections onto them. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's, yeah, that's definitely [SPEAKER_01]: there's such a shelter crisis right now and people want to know how do we help and it's like it's an us a lot of it's an us problem and you know I'm guilty of that like when we rescued our first dog years ago I did I did the same thing I'm like I'm gonna give you the best life [SPEAKER_01]: gave him free reign and then we ended up with dealing with reactivity yours down the road.

1:10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's something now that we've had to work through and we've made a lot of progress. [SPEAKER_01]: But I completely understand, like I've been there, I've been that person that was like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to give him the best life and you know, that's why like it comes back to humans.

1:10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We thrive on routines too. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm predictive ability and you know, I'm sure like if you don't have structure in your day, sometimes you just feel like you're just floating around and [SPEAKER_00]: Amen to that. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't do well with vacations. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.