5 Flights Through China: Leaving Asia When the Gulf Shut Down

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Dan, and I'm Alex, and welcome back to On Air, How are you? [SPEAKER_01]: What a week, what a week, not too bad. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the week was made a little better by watching [SPEAKER_01]: your great video that you, you had shared on YouTube of your incredible, extraordinary journal, heroic journey back from the Southeast Asia.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some might say heroic, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because just before we hit record now, I said to you, yeah, it was, I said, the video was great and you said, oh, thank you and I said, yeah, like I watched all of it. [SPEAKER_01]: So, and then [SPEAKER_01]: when there is a movie coming out in cinema and then they put a statement from a famous person that you know with that verdict and like and a quote.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I want you to include on your YouTube video the latest one in the in the bio put um you know I watched all of it Alex Machara's something [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it was a long video. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know last night, um, we're staying with some, or my mom's best friend. [SPEAKER_00]: So Oscar had the brilliant idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, let me put on this video and force my mom and her best friend to sit through the whole 45 minute thing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think I've ever done that before. [SPEAKER_00]: I was miserable sitting there looking at their reactions in person. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, no, no, no, this video sucks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Get it away from me. [SPEAKER_00]: That's how you feel. [SPEAKER_00]: No, it doesn't. [SPEAKER_00]: It was great to display it like that. [SPEAKER_01]: See, this is not a very good advert for your video, because you're saying that you, the host, the main character, the soul entity of the video, you've helped it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's because you had to relive the whole thing, which was a very, very long economy journey back. [SPEAKER_01]: through everywhere to journey your way back from Asia to Northern Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, basically the context here is that we've discussed the past month plus how it's gotten or at least I think it's a bit better now, but I think it was very difficult to fly between Southeast Asia and Europe if you didn't have a prebook ticket that also applied to Africa to Asia to Australia to Europe all these different routes.

[SPEAKER_00]: because of the absence of Middle Eastern Airlines. [SPEAKER_00]: So there I was in Asia and I decided let's find a real cheap and adventurous way to get between Europe and Asia, which is how I ended up taking [SPEAKER_00]: five flights through someone's say more unusual connection points in China in order to eventually get to Gothenburg which you know is already not easy to get to wherever you want to get from.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not easy to get to Gothenburg but I managed and yeah I could walk you through the whole journey but it was quite the experience. [SPEAKER_01]: And you mentioned just then about how, you know, people are having to be creative in order to move around, especially with the sudden onset of the crisis.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in those first weeks, specifically in early March, we had people stuck everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I mean, anecdotally, it was always funny. [SPEAKER_01]: I saw many examples where Middle East carriers were a passenger booked with one golf carrier, which obviously wasn't flying because of the airspace restrictions and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: because that ticket was, let's say, in partnership with British Showways, and so it was actually a BA ticket. [SPEAKER_01]: The examples were BA rebuked them on Etihad. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what, that's properly good idea. [SPEAKER_01]: Not, yeah, not fixing. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, that's because the, you know, the golf carers were in the same boat in the challenge that they faced.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so inevitably the Etihad flight wasn't available either, and then also I know a few scenarios where people were really stuck because [SPEAKER_01]: where they were released of obligation from the original airline and rebooked with the additional airline and then the additional airline then cancelled, then they returned back to the original airline that like, well, [SPEAKER_01]: you're not that problem because you're that kind of sort of passenger.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so people were being passed around and it was, I think it was a really difficult month for people who had happened to be booked to transit via the Gulf and the Gulf during its peak can handle close to half a million passengers a day in some scenarios, collectiviers, the hubs, doha, a trae.

[SPEAKER_01]: Abu Dhabi and Dubai and that's without the the other Gulf hubs too. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's been an extraordinary time for aviation. [SPEAKER_01]: I think people will be very much aware of how the situation is filtering out and touching their lives in so many different ways that are not related to our travel.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had quite a lot of feedback of last week's episode where people found it quite sobering. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the responses were quite [SPEAKER_01]: quite jarring in terms of a real reality check in the state of play and we are not here to minimize the or to play down the very real impact that this prolonged crisis is having and will continue to have globally on everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll have a little round up as to where things [SPEAKER_01]: But given that you are the perfect example of someone who has done that journey and a very interesting journey, I might add, let's talk about how you moved during this disruption from [SPEAKER_01]: where you are in Asia to know then Europe, what were the situations, what were your considerations and then I want to understand all kinds of complexities.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've literally got a list that I was taking notes when I watched your video to do with transit visas and onward bookings and so let's take us through kind of from the beginning. [SPEAKER_00]: What, I don't know about you, but whenever I try playing my mind set is always on the long whole flight first, getting between continents first, finding the best deal for that or the best flight for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So in this case, it would be Asia to Europe is what I'm thinking about. [SPEAKER_00]: Even if I was starting in Thailand, I wasn't going, okay, I need to get from Bangkok to Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: I spread [SPEAKER_00]: And what I found, at first I was looking at Hong Kong, Shanghai, Seoul, and then I realized that you can get a bit more creative because when it comes to China, there's a whole bunch of cities with 10-15 million people that most people in Europe have never heard of, but happen to have direct flights to Gothenburg and [SPEAKER_00]: No, not to Gothenburg, I wish to Europe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Getting ahead of yourself, goodness. [SPEAKER_01]: We're just a few minutes into the episode, just for the record, everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: Because the worry is you've just declared that these cities are cities that people haven't even heard of. [SPEAKER_01]: So now people believe. [SPEAKER_01]: That not only have you never heard of these cities, but they have direct flights to Gotham but as if keep dreaming, I think you still got, anyway, go on, so without any point of clarification on the record.

[SPEAKER_00]: You really can dream about that kind of stuff, because with China, you never know. [SPEAKER_00]: There are truly some extremely random routes. [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, we have, I found one that I was leaning toward from [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how to pronounce it even Gen Joe or something, it's the airport code is CGO, they have a direct flight from this city, again, probably an absolute massive city to Luxembourg, and I found a very cheap seat on that, I thought this is an extremely neat route, let's try it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then I said actually, [SPEAKER_00]: That's quite a long flight. [SPEAKER_00]: It was 11 hours or so. [SPEAKER_00]: How can we shorten this down a bit? [SPEAKER_00]: Let's check Western China and of course, any avgeek flight radar obsessed person like me has spent hours just [SPEAKER_00]: traveling around the map on flight radar, looking at different traffic in different parts of the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: And a city that has always fascinated me from an aviation perspective is the relatively big airline aviation hub in western China, Wutum Qi, which is the big city in the Xinjiang province, border in Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, [SPEAKER_00]: a Kyrgyzstan, to Gikistan, afghanistan, wait, maybe no.

[SPEAKER_00]: It borders so many countries on that side of China, and I thought, oh, are there any flights to Europe from here? [SPEAKER_00]: Because this still gets us from Asia to Europe, so I ended up finding a ticket I could book with points for the equivalent of less than $300 per person. [SPEAKER_00]: From what I'm Chi China to Istanbul Turkey on a one-sweakly China Southern flight and as an avgeek, those types of extremely niche infrequent, unusual routes just get me so excited.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I thought we're booking this and then we'll figure out everything else around it, which turned out to be quite an adventure in and of itself because as we've mentioned, [SPEAKER_00]: everyone was looking to fly through anywhere about the Middle East at that time. [SPEAKER_00]: So flights from Bangkok to almost everywhere in China were also full and expensive.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the first flight ended up taking was Bangkok to Guangzhou. [SPEAKER_00]: The biggest hub of one of China's biggest airlines China's southern, and while usually [SPEAKER_00]: Oscar and I would probably be some of the own the Europeans on any Chinese airline flight just because there's so many Chinese people themselves traveling Yeah, this was a case where basically 50% of the passengers on that flight We're connecting onwards to elsewhere in not elsewhere in China elsewhere in Europe because That was a live runway to get home [SPEAKER_01]: from Bangkok to Guangzhou.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then Guangzhou itself is obviously quite an established hub and also very nice to Hong Kong and we I mean [SPEAKER_01]: is interesting that you point out the demographic because there were so many people, hundreds of thousands of people that were stuck in Bangkok alone because of the way that the flows between Europe and Bangkok that flow is dominated by the Gulf carriers that there were many, you know, just so many people that were caught up and they were simply unable to be re-accommodated in so many scenarios onto other islands.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we saw those network to network flights that, for example, Qatar were operating, where they were flying nonstop from Bangkok to Manchester and Bangkok to Madrid, because it was just about clearing that backlog. [SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't see those network to network flights from Emirates already had, but the Bangkok remains obviously and had remained for them the priority in terms of addressing the sheer volume of passengers there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So to see that [SPEAKER_01]: to Guangzhou was very interesting because you know that they typically wouldn't have European zambord on such a route. [SPEAKER_00]: Precisely. [SPEAKER_00]: And what is so fascinating about China in general is how still foreign and unfamiliar it is to most Westerners because it's been [SPEAKER_00]: so closed off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, as I said, my mind went to, okay, let's check Hong Kong. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's compare Hong Kong airport, one of, in our minds, the premier established airports in Asia, [SPEAKER_00]: In the coming seven days, they have 3,700 flights to or from Hong Kong Airport. [SPEAKER_00]: Guangzhou Airport has 5,300 flights in the next seven days.

[SPEAKER_00]: Shenzhen airport, and airport just a few minutes [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they have 4,400 flights in the next day. [SPEAKER_00]: So Hong Kong is actually the small airport in that region. [SPEAKER_00]: You just don't view it that way, which is what's so fascinating, because then you land in Guangzhou, where I've transferred before, but only in the international part, the domestic section is just enormous.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what was especially exciting is that Guangzhou is the home, [SPEAKER_00]: to China's Southern's callback C919s as you also saw, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that was also, say I was thinking, didn't tell me this, it didn't send me a message. [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to freak out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I knew you'd like to hear that. [SPEAKER_01]: That part of the YouTube videos where I started to think, [SPEAKER_01]: and I think that wearing regular contact me and the co-host and I find out along with the viewers that you were on a C-919, we'll come to that. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so this was now, so you're now in Guangzhou, you've done the first flight.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was in economy on a 737 MAX, right? [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's correct, on the first aircraft. [SPEAKER_01]: You were with fellow passengers that were also stranded and caught up in this [SPEAKER_01]: with the S-based coaches in the Gulf, forcing passengers to find out other ways how to re-root.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, how long were you in Guangzhou for in total? [SPEAKER_00]: About a five-hour alley over, which... And actually... You've been to the city before. [SPEAKER_00]: No, only transfered their twice never been into the city because these cities are so massive. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a little, oh, let's take an easy trip down.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's such a big commitment. [SPEAKER_00]: So we figure if we're going to do it, we can't just do it for a day or two. [SPEAKER_00]: We need to really give it a chance. [SPEAKER_00]: And there's also so many exciting, incredible hotels in Guangzhou. [SPEAKER_00]: They have the world's highest hotel.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Rosewood Guangzhou. [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a bunch of things we would love to try there, but yeah, this time it was only transit, which is fun enough. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, as you saw in the video, Guangzhou Airport has a China Southern cafe. [SPEAKER_00]: So not only can you buy a bunch of China Southern merch, they have China Southern themed drinks, the people working there are wearing China Southern cabin crew uniforms.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's wrong on the branding. [SPEAKER_00]: It is. [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, this video that I made was when we imported all the files, we had over three hours of footage. [SPEAKER_00]: So there were a lot of things we had to cut out, including so many things that make China the 2026 China that is so viral online.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like one thing that blew us away was that [SPEAKER_00]: there's at every departure board there's some footstep markings on the ground and when you step on though I see this and you like up it tells you your flight information and your gate just by standing there and looking at the screen without having to scan through the hundreds of departures [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, how?

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, you asked me out any of these technologies work. [SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea, but it's just, it's just so fascinating. [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, there's convenience. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm asking you because you're an American, you know, it doesn't that make you feel violated.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they're probably where they have our faces, just as much everywhere in the U.S. as they do in China, you know? [SPEAKER_00]: good as a traveler is that every 50 meters in the airport there's a rental power bank station. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, you know that I can rent one, charge my phone quickly, and then return it in another one of these.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many also Chinese airports have seating constellations that truly I have never seen [SPEAKER_00]: No airports in any other country have the type of seating constellations you'll find a Chinese airport. [SPEAKER_01]: So there are just explain what you mean by seating constellations.

[SPEAKER_00]: So examples are office spaces everywhere with desks, charging, then you'll find tables with seats around them. [SPEAKER_00]: So the people can sit and die. [SPEAKER_00]: Even very high wall chairs. [SPEAKER_00]: So people have privacy. [SPEAKER_00]: There are massage chairs everywhere. [SPEAKER_00]: There are couches.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not helped, but just feel this, like when you spend time in China and in these cities, and even, I mean, as you say, venturing into the, the seconder and the third city, you can't help, but laugh at how Europe, [SPEAKER_01]: position itself as somehow being, quote, ahead. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and then, God only knows what happens to that rhetoric when we start discussing the U.S. and that low-sealing airports broken, you know, even when you were telling me last time, [SPEAKER_00]: about how the terminal I was in Los Angeles, you like, this is the nice of one and I was like, I know unfortunately that is the case, but it's not only there, what I just find fascinating is that you look at the airports around the world that are considered to be the best and the Chinese airports are not even

[SPEAKER_00]: No one talks about them. [SPEAKER_00]: They're not on any, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Awards are charted. [SPEAKER_00]: Incredibly. [SPEAKER_00]: But they're rated. [SPEAKER_00]: But they are so efficient and so impressive that if they were any more spotless, precisely. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the amount of times you could see your, the amount of times your phone was reflecting.

[SPEAKER_01]: In the, the flaws of, uh, in the distance and the walls, it was just the light was bouncing off of everything because that's how it is when you're, when you are in, [SPEAKER_01]: most of Asia and the infrastructure, these massive terminals, these big facilities, and they are absolutely spotless.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, arrival. [SPEAKER_01]: Arrived to Britain's hard London Heathrow and look around for the first few minutes, no matter what terminal you're in, and that, I mean, there's just too much to comprehend, and it's not, you know, I hate we've spoken about this before. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that it should be acceptable.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that it should be unusual or extravagant to expect places to be clean when the rest of the world is very easy able to demonstrate how that is done, how it is possible to have it on and bigger volumes and at bigger scale. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not necessarily all due to cheaper labor in China, for example, they have robots going around everywhere, mopping the floors in the airports.

[SPEAKER_00]: You get those and you're not paying labor. [SPEAKER_00]: You can still keep things clean instead of having piles of dried up chewing gum and all this, you spill drinks on the floors. [SPEAKER_01]: And people are so poor. [SPEAKER_01]: Duh over years and years and years that the never is.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's just so many parts of Europe that just need one massive pressure washing. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like those videos. [SPEAKER_01]: Do they appear for you on Instagram? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, those pressure washing. [SPEAKER_00]: They're cleaning the signs or public transport or... Oh, I also get videos where people go into, let's say, an elderly person's home.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or hasn't been able to clean for 20 years. [SPEAKER_00]: And it looks absolutely horrendous, but then they give them... [SPEAKER_00]: a deep cleaning for free. [SPEAKER_00]: That's satisfying. [SPEAKER_00]: It is so satisfying. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like can we get all those content creators together?

[SPEAKER_00]: And just let's do, he throw terminal three altogether now. [SPEAKER_01]: and terrible for while they're at it, please, because terrible for is a great other. [SPEAKER_01]: And even, you know, T5 is obviously the nicer one, but still just don't look down in the corners. [SPEAKER_01]: The dirt is just and it's just accepted and that's the norm and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then China's just one of the countries, again, showing how it's done, not just at their flagship, not just the pretty picture for the tourists, but when you venture off of the beaten track and you've had to come and still you're able to. [SPEAKER_01]: That's that, also noted down in my notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: What impressive wayfinding at some of these apples in China that I haven't been to that you were in in the video the wayfinding is extraordinary and I say that in simple terms how crystal clear Right-sharing at this way hotel transfers this way what a struggle it continues to be for European apples for example to just even be 10% as clear as that for passengers [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so let me we can discuss the C919 flight once I post the video of that because that was a whole another adventure, but this is when I landed in Wuhan.

[SPEAKER_00]: I showed this because so this is Wuhan airport. [SPEAKER_00]: We all know about Wuhan of course. [SPEAKER_00]: How long was the flight from that flight was an hour and a half. [SPEAKER_00]: So very quick. [SPEAKER_00]: that airport is also absolutely stunning. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, we land, we realize, oh, if you're a China Southern passenger on transit, they have a free transit hotel program.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not only that, you could also order a necessities kit that contained, oh, I wish I could find a screenshot. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me see if I, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So here we have it. [SPEAKER_00]: You can request a summary. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm, I'm right. [SPEAKER_00]: You can request [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this list, a free box contains reading glasses, a magnifying glass, a sewing kit, nail clippers, essential bomb, adhesive bandages, a mobile phone charger, a thermometer, and sterile gals.

[SPEAKER_00]: I assume you don't get to keep all these things, but it's just like, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just thinking. [SPEAKER_00]: Go on. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm getting to keep a phone charger would be pretty incredible. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Then we should have asked for one, but then you follow the signs for the ride hailing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And there at the ride hailing, it's like 330 meters to pick up point. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you follow every 10 meters, there's an arrow that says with an updated number of meters until you get there. [SPEAKER_00]: Once you get to the right, healing pickup, there's a waiting room with like a sign showing the registration, registration signs of the cars that have arrived.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a kids play in changing area. [SPEAKER_00]: There's seats. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, this is just, we sound like we're propagandists, but it just seems like it should be so we appreciate to do this, the level of, you know, the standard difference in some of these precisely. [SPEAKER_01]: So also I like the fact we have these conversations because we're bringing potentially [SPEAKER_01]: the realities of market.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're bringing ideas to the decision makers, but also we're bringing the realities of a home market to travelers who, you know, maybe they're living in South American have absolutely no. [SPEAKER_01]: No reason to think about venturing somewhere like that. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's true for Europeans.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's true for the African continent, so on. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's good to, you know, you didn't just rock up in Beijing for a day. [SPEAKER_01]: And also you and I have traveled extensively across Asia, China, and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: But for you to take in this journey at this time was particularly interesting because you were in a economy class the whole way.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you were not simply wowed by the premium facilities or the fact that you're not having to us saying [SPEAKER_01]: theoretically you were more tired and aching and painy than previous because you are a guy who flies premium travel because you show people how they can do it for less with miles and points.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you know theoretically you'd think you'd come off of this trip saying oh my god you don't want to talk about it you don't really live or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: But actually, you have deep gratitude and appreciation for what these apples are very, very quietly achieving and you know, continuing to, to wow us and the person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: The one last thing I want to say on this that was just in my mind, the whole trip was all these people that are being re-booked or having their plans changed from the airlines that they would have [SPEAKER_00]: I love the idea that they are now probably getting to experience something that they wouldn't have experienced otherwise, to experience a cultural, I don't use the word experience again, but that's what it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something cultural because China is so unique and so singular in how everything operates there, but also to realize that especially this was satisfying me so much [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think social media is changing things a bit, but I think they're certainly an idea that the US does things better than China But if you board a Chinese airline to a Chinese airport and the flight attendants speak perfect English They bow during the safety demo to welcome everyone on board They are so polished Singapore Airlines level polish of the cabin crew on these airlines [SPEAKER_00]: The toilets are kept spotless.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so civilized from that perspective. [SPEAKER_00]: They have inflight safety officers on every single flight Every single Chinese airline flight to keep people safe. [SPEAKER_00]: They have a camera recording what's going on on their Sort of like police have on their chest as they walk around the plane [SPEAKER_00]: which is also, I mean, if any country you think would have that, it would be the U.S.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's in China. [SPEAKER_00]: Then you land at a Chinese airport and you realize how grandiose, efficient and pleasant they are. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just such a fun way to realize. [SPEAKER_00]: I actually, [SPEAKER_00]: We're focusing on the wrong thing and we're falling behind, not in the way we think we are, but we need to just be more open-minded to learn from people around us, learn from the countries around the world that do certain things better than us in order to improve what we offer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head right there because this is because they are [SPEAKER_01]: consideration sometimes when we speak to airport teams particularly European airport teams there's very little willingness for them to be able to get up there and see well who's doing who's doing what well and and how do we bring that back home instead there's this exceptionalism that extends right across the board and not just well beyond aviation where you know Paris Charles de Gaulle are too busy picking up awards about how they're Europe's best Apple haha right to even consider that that China has me my implemented x, y, z that is all able [SPEAKER_01]: to be brought to some way like child's to go and it's not that different.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is more that these places have in common than in terms of differences. [SPEAKER_01]: But then that's sorry, then that makes them different. [SPEAKER_01]: And yet still there is reluctance there, and still there is, you know, not much progression when they could be really taking inspiration.

[SPEAKER_01]: Before we move on to a bit of a round up as to the current state of play, I noticed in the video that you were messaging about the three-year communicating in the vid about [SPEAKER_01]: You were your relief to fly on a white body aircraft, because more of the other aircraft was, yes, oh, let's talk about economy all throughout and the seat was the same and you still had in flight entertainment and your vegan mills were still confirmed and so it's interesting, why did you feel such relief that there were more seats in the cabin that were still occupied?

[SPEAKER_01]: uh, as opposed to the same seat with the same scenario and theoretically the same seat pitch and width but on a single hour. [SPEAKER_00]: This is something we haven't really spoken about. [SPEAKER_00]: I know we we always discuss the benefits and drawbacks of long-haul narrow body, which I guess is where this is going.

[SPEAKER_00]: The idea of the A321LR is this a good idea is this about idea to take flights where you could be on a wide body, but instead you're on a narrow body, a single aisle plane. [SPEAKER_00]: And it is so apparent when you've been sitting for 10 hours like I had on narrowbody planes and border widebody just how much more made this plane is to spend a long time on.

[SPEAKER_00]: It feels so much more sturdy and spacious. [SPEAKER_00]: You have [SPEAKER_00]: far more lavatories, even if the ratio to the number of passengers might be the same, it's just the idea that we have six lavatories or eight lavatories here to share instead of two, which are back in the galley where the crew are and you're disturbing them and there's only one way to get to the toilet because the crew are blocking the aisle, certainly on a wide body, a lot of [SPEAKER_00]: you just feel, it feels more premium.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we've always said with the A380 as well. [SPEAKER_00]: Bording an A380 feels better than boarding a 787 or a triple 7 or an A330 because there it's like going from a regular wide body to a true wide body. [SPEAKER_00]: And now you're like, whoa, I can stand fully straight here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wherever I am in the plane, I mean, this is especially true for the lower floor of A380. [SPEAKER_00]: while I'm in my window seat in economy, good luck doing that on any other plane anywhere in the world when you're, you know, my height. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just things like that that truly make you appreciate why the body is in it, definitely.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what does that say for a future of, you know, more single-all entrants into the market because airlines are being able to be, airlines are taking these aircraft offered them incredible efficiencies, but still, now American airlines, [SPEAKER_01]: has had a bit of a rough entry into service.

[SPEAKER_01]: I keep seeing it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's been tech, malfunctioning, blah, blah, blah. [SPEAKER_01]: But also, I just saw this tweet somewhere that somebody put on relief down off of that flight. [SPEAKER_01]: And the person replied, why? [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, he said, oh, because it was small.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then somebody replied, you know, you were on the newest one. [SPEAKER_01]: It's there for 21XLR. [SPEAKER_01]: And he put doesn't matter. [SPEAKER_01]: It was tight. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking, yeah, yeah, there was [SPEAKER_01]: Potentially the seat pitch and with is less than what they just had on the XLR, but it's that feeling of headroom And it is actually why the A380 is still so loved today because yes, you were putting 500 people on a plane that people love and rave about it and I am worried [SPEAKER_01]: the impact of this prolonged conflict on the Earth race.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to look like because once again it's driving them out of service. [SPEAKER_00]: This is such a small problem compared to any of the humanitarian things that are going on. [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, let's just talk about as avgeeks. [SPEAKER_00]: I have been extremely concerned about just what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I see Qatar removing them from the schedule. [SPEAKER_00]: I see Emirates sending eight, eight, eighties into storage. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is not Tim Clark, especially at Emeriss, has been so committed to the A380, keeping it around to 2040, but there's always been that ostrich there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every time he said that, unless we have another COVID-like event, which the Middle Eastern Airlines are going through right now in terms of, you know, their capacities and the load factors and stuff like that, [SPEAKER_00]: So, it is extremely concerning wine, especially Emirates, the airline that has been most committed to the A380 faces a situation like this because there is no plane that is better for passengers, no plane that is more fun or enjoyable or comfortable to fly, and it would, yeah, just as so worrying to think about what the implications could be on the future.

[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: The situation is unclear in that sense. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know exactly what the future of the A3T is at his golf carriers in light of everything that is going on. [SPEAKER_01]: Let that bring us to a little brief as to what's going on. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll start with JetFuel.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Singapore, sorry, South Korea's aviation sector, since we last spoke as entered into crisis mode, because of the fuel supply shortage and the [SPEAKER_01]: price spike of jet fuel, it is continuing to spike, it is unpressed and the high airlines are not able to pay and if they are, there is simply not enough going around to be able to secure it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I broke the news six days ago that Britain's hub London Heathrow is the highest risk major airport in Europe in terms of a jet fuel stance for mid-8 Pro onwards as the US [SPEAKER_01]: 1300 flights a day and airlines were briefed how he throw wood struggle quote the most and the earliest with jet fuel as the shortage wasons and the price surges quick side note the UK takes more than half of its jet fuel from the Middle East and the last known arrival of jet fuel from the Middle East was last Thursday shortly after the episode went out there is nothing in the nothing ahead in terms of shipmas and deliveries that has been secured [SPEAKER_01]: yet that might change by the time you listen to this for by the time this lands in your feeds Wednesday morning, but that's the situation as of now and also just an important caveat is not the situation for the whole of the UK, noting that for example Manchester

[SPEAKER_01]: airport. [SPEAKER_01]: It does take its fuel from other sources and isn't so reliant on the imports from the Middle East. [SPEAKER_01]: Currently, how is how they doing? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, currently there is no shortage at Heathrow, but I wasn't talking about currently. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm speaking about what happens from mid April onwards.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people were, I had so many replies. [SPEAKER_01]: People are understanding the situation. [SPEAKER_01]: Then I had a replies from pilots themselves, British always pilots who were saying, well, that's not true. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no shortage right now. [SPEAKER_01]: I just flew to there and everything is [SPEAKER_01]: to which I was responding, yep, there's no shortage today.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not speaking about what's happening currently. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm speaking about from mid April onwards. [SPEAKER_01]: The president clearly was briefed on a similar thing that, because the next morning, President Trump tweeted entirely about jet fuel, he put, quote, all those countries that can't get jet fuel because of the straight of homo's, like the UK, and then he went on to ramble about other rubbish.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he seemingly is aware, easy jet CO now around nine days ago said, quote, I'm confident for a week or two in terms of jet fuel that were all good. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm probably confident for three weeks he said about ten days ago, not good. [SPEAKER_01]: Since we last spoke to the European Commissioner urging the public to fly less work from home and other measures warning that the prolonged crisis will have severe impacts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lufthansa is readying plans to ground aircraft as demand continues to drop. [SPEAKER_01]: Pakistan has introduced a no-town which is a declaration and notice [SPEAKER_01]: to the industry pilots are able to see it in the cockpit. [SPEAKER_01]: It's relevant for airlines planning airspace access and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: The no-tam notes a very real disruption in supply in the supply chain of jet fuel and has advised airlines to carry maximum fuel from that origin when they are flying to Pakistan, asking them, please don't refuel here because of these supply issues there. [SPEAKER_01]: Ryanair, have confirmed what I said a week ago and have said that they see real jet fuel supply disruption from a soon as a few weeks if this war continues.

[SPEAKER_01]: The IEA chief said that the biggest problem right now is the lack of jet fuel already affecting Asia and he says, quote, this is coming to Europe in April. [SPEAKER_01]: and May, that's the International Energy Agency, Chief. [SPEAKER_01]: The situation is dire. [SPEAKER_01]: We've had one of the big suppliers, BP, announced fuel rationing across multiple Italian airports.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's again because of the jet fuel crisis and the shortage that is already here. [SPEAKER_01]: The jet fuel rationing in Italy that has been declared means that priority will be given to flights for medical purposes, government and long haul. [SPEAKER_01]: Short haul, very much at risk, not currently the priority.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's [SPEAKER_01]: it's a real crisis for airlines all over the world. [SPEAKER_01]: Sydney airport saying that it can't guarantee an aviation supply, aviation jet fuel, sorry it's supply for next month. [SPEAKER_01]: Philippine airline saying that they have some weak secured but no visibility beyond that.

[SPEAKER_01]: The carriers that are nothing to do with the Middle East that don't even fly near to the region, [SPEAKER_01]: very much affected. [SPEAKER_01]: It's all a little depressing. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm afraid precisely. [SPEAKER_00]: And we got a Q&A question which I just want to wrap into this because we won't have much time for Q&A today, but the question is about airline fuel hedging and how that works.

[SPEAKER_00]: So hedging is basically purchasing in advance [SPEAKER_00]: in order to be able to more accurately estimate your costs. [SPEAKER_01]: So in airline, you're protecting yourself from that volatility, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Besides fluctuations. [SPEAKER_00]: Because as we know fuel prices change all the time, now we've seen them skyrocket.

[SPEAKER_00]: Fuel is about 20 to 30% of most airlines operating costs. [SPEAKER_00]: So knowing what that cost will be on a long-term basis or at least throughout the year is very helpful in being able to plan your finances rather than being subject to fuel price changes. [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of airlines smartly try to hedge in advance a few years.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Singapore Airlines, for example, is known to hedge several years in advance a certain percentage of their fuel. [SPEAKER_00]: to sort of average out the swings in fuel price and have a more predictable operating model. [SPEAKER_00]: We have airlines like let's see the biggest lifetimes has actually done great because they've pledged 77% of their fuel for 2026, Ryanair, who keeps talking about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, while they've hedged 77% that doesn't guarantee their supply, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So they're [SPEAKER_01]: the feds and protect themselves for the fluctuations. [SPEAKER_01]: But the supply itself is that now I'm pressing crime. [SPEAKER_00]: This is this is what I wanted to get to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so so what I wanted to get to is that even the airlines that protected themselves from that and might have initially thought that Okay, if you this is not I mean, I assume they saw on the on the horizon that there would be supply issues, but then you okay We are not we will not be suffering that much from this price increase is some other airlines will like SAS for example, which virtually hasn't hedged at all [SPEAKER_00]: now suddenly there's a whole new issue which is well great it's great that we've committed to a that we've got a very low price for our fuel for 2026.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not so great if we can't even operate the flights that we had planned to operate with that now very cheap fuel that we purchased because there is no fuel available which is the worst possible scenario for all of these airlines [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, this will, to answer a question that we received from Alessandro, this will absolutely impact passengers.

[SPEAKER_01]: It already is, fairs are up and surcharges are up with them. [SPEAKER_01]: Cafe Pacific is fuel surcharge, has been raised 34% from just the other day. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the second increase in weeks. [SPEAKER_01]: It means that a long haul, round trip, fair. [SPEAKER_01]: Now carries a $400 fuel surcharge.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cafe is not alone here, both Japanese airlines, Zhao and A&A are expected to raise international fuel surges. [SPEAKER_01]: Fuel surcharge is to the highest levels for June and July bookings. [SPEAKER_01]: Air France KLM closer to home 50 euro surcharge per round trip on long haul routes, and that's also applying to flying blue award tickets in your world [SPEAKER_01]: Indigo, similar picture, Korean air, similar picture, SAS.

[SPEAKER_01]: We spoke about how they've cancelled at least a thousand flights in April, and several hundreds were cut in March. [SPEAKER_01]: Most of these were short-haul scandy routes where the margins are of course other thinnest. [SPEAKER_01]: New Zealand has raised economy, fares, all economy fares across the board by ten New Zealand dollars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Domestic, 20 for short-haul international, 90 for long-haul is also cancelled, 1,100 flights. [SPEAKER_01]: until the third of May that affects almost 50k passengers and has understandably suspended its 2026 earnings guidance. [SPEAKER_01]: Conter's similar measure, JetBlue. [SPEAKER_01]: They've raised the baggage fees, sighting, they're operating costs have gone up so they're going to make the money somewhere else.

[SPEAKER_01]: Eurasia raising fairs and surcharges dynamically, Tony Fernandez, very outspoken and said quote, we won't be canceling flights as demand is good and we'll do our best to try and keep fairs as low as possible, nothing promised about the surcharges there, fuel surcharges are up on Hong Kong Airlines, greater bail lines, Singapore Airlines, tyreways, Vietnam, portar in Canada, if it's a sad but not very surprising development, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one final thing we could discuss here, we got another Q&A question from Alex actually Hi, Alex. [SPEAKER_00]: He says, what do we think about Trump wanting to privatize TSA in the U.S.? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you did you read about this? [SPEAKER_01]: I did, yes, I did, and the problem is I have a very little time for anything that Trump is suggesting because we're in this, you must have noticed along with everyone else right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're in this crazy cycle where the market's closed disastrously on a Friday, and then on a Sunday we start getting rhetoric from the same reporter from Axios, who refers to the fact that, oh, there's going to be a deal and the war is going to end just in [SPEAKER_01]: only for them Tuesday to be revealed that there are no negotiations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wednesday he starts acting out crazy again, whether they need to invoke the 25th Friday or comes crashing down again, Sunday, wash and repeat. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just sickening. [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, to ask the question, I didn't see the thing about TSA, but I took it with a pinch of salt because I'm like, who?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who can believe what [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, in the way that he is in an attempt to, we understand, bring back global stability in light of everything I have just read out, he tweeted on Easter Sunday, and by the way, happy Easter to our listeners at celebrate, wishing you a blessed Easter, happy Easter to one and all.

[SPEAKER_01]: The president, you would have expected him to have [SPEAKER_01]: perhaps share the same kind of sentiment with it with a nice easter message instead he tweeted oh quote open the fucking straight you crazy bastards or you will be living in hell just watch and i'm thinking aha so how to airlines now interpret that to be able to thicker out demand and pricing and so I just feel when this is the rhetoric that airlines are having to manage [SPEAKER_01]: and I've never witnessed a scenario, so granular where the whole world is currently functioning or disfunctioning based on what these [SPEAKER_01]: Tweet truth posts are, and I can't call them truth posts because it can't so that each other out is like proof, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just, uh, what a mess. [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's, I mean, just just talking about the TSA and by the way, today, this week's episode is being recorded late on Monday because we were not available to you. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was just because this situation developed so fast. [SPEAKER_00]: So we might completely miss something which might be why we're not discussing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: The TSA is notoriously one of the worst security organizations in the world. [SPEAKER_00]: Approximately 70 to 90% of weapons that people bring through security are not even detected and removed by the TSA, which makes you question goodness. [SPEAKER_00]: what's even the point of having them there besides some sort of deterrent to scare people off, but clearly thousands of weapons are being successfully brought on to flight by gun carrying Americans every single year.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's no denying that the TSA is not working well. [SPEAKER_00]: There's also no denying the most government agencies and most part of the world, parts of the world, [SPEAKER_00]: are able to take too much funding for too little results and it ends up being a very expensive inefficient organization and the last thing is that the TSA can't keep getting shut down during government shutdowns and they're not even getting stable, but yeah none of that is sustainable.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, all that said, in my experience, and I think a lot of people would agree, privatizing something in the US, specifically, usually does not lead to better results. [SPEAKER_00]: So probably would not lead to less detected weapons, or less money going toward the TSA, likely more than it already does.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, this is probably some deal where someone that knows the people in the White House is going to benefit a lot of money with whatever happens. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's also note that the suggestion for now is just to do this, it's small airports to start out with. [SPEAKER_00]: But the TSA 100% needs an overhaul probably not through privatization though.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see, I'm interested to hear what the listeners, particularly those that reside in the U.S. are frequently traveling there, what they think. [SPEAKER_01]: So do get in touch. [SPEAKER_01]: And as always, you can leave your comments or your questions to us either on Spotify, where many of you were most of your listening on YouTube or directly to us on the podcast Instagram account, which is at [SPEAKER_01]: on air with Dan and Alex.

[SPEAKER_01]: All one word in the meantime. [SPEAKER_00]: We will see you all next week another Wednesday on air. [SPEAKER_00]: Bye bye. [SPEAKER_00]: Take care guys.

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