Air France's First Class Problem Nobody's Talking About

0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dan. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Alex and welcome back to a brand new season of On Air. [SPEAKER_00]: It is great to be back and great to be back with you, Dan. [SPEAKER_00]: How's it going? [SPEAKER_01]: It is so good to be back. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so happy to be on solid ground after 14 flights and 14 days around the world.

0:16 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? [SPEAKER_00]: Good. [SPEAKER_00]: I was looking at that travel schedule and you know what you and I both aviation lovers but 14 flights in 14 days probably a bit much. [SPEAKER_01]: What on earth was all that about? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, long story short I needed to record a bunch of videos quickly and that is how I decided to do it but at least we got to meet up close to the start of the trip which was a good energy boost [SPEAKER_00]: So, please do here.

0:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was great. [SPEAKER_00]: And also, since while we were on the break over the new year, the Christmas, the new year and the January period, we were able to get together a couple of times, and also to realign, recalibrate, get ready for a new season of honour, and a new theme that we're going to press ahead with that we're going to actually dive into straight away.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas we're going to dedicate more of our episodes to specific subjects. [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine it like a mini podcast documentary so that you, the listener, we can enrich your heads with some wonderful insight on key issues or key why, why is something this way in air travel? [SPEAKER_00]: What is X airline doing about why?

1:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine this more like [SPEAKER_00]: Um, a dinner party discussion, Dan and I are either end of the table. [SPEAKER_00]: You guys, the listeners are dotted around the table. [SPEAKER_00]: Someone has asked a question on the mind in today's episode. [SPEAKER_00]: That will be revealed shortly and we're here to take a deep dive into that.

1:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So that [SPEAKER_00]: episode, you can take away with some very specific and expanded knowledge on any of these topic areas. [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think then? [SPEAKER_01]: Precisely, you set it very well. [SPEAKER_01]: And we also know we have a lot of people who work in the airline industry listening, everything from past new experience people to executives, which brings us to today's topic, which I was basically kept awake by during my 14 days, 14 flights and 14 days around the world trip.

2:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I was just thinking, Air France, La Première, what is going on with that? [SPEAKER_01]: And for people who don't really know, what is the deal with Air France La Première to start with? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to tell us Alex? [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, so Air France positions themselves when it comes to first class at the higher end of the market.

2:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So when we think about first class, what are we thinking of with thinking of course about Emirates and and what they've achieved with that first class on the A380s and also on the game changer products. [SPEAKER_00]: First class in the United States, probably a different conversation right down because not in Google in this.

2:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, first class in the United States, I mean we're thinking more about, I mean better over recent years, that's for sure, but traditionally recliners and domestic first class. [SPEAKER_00]: First class, we're thinking we're talking about the highest level, not necessarily the biggest money maker for aviation and for airlines themselves, but definitely priced in a way that airlines [SPEAKER_00]: Well, for that kind of traveler, really, the passenger that wants to spend either it's out of their own pocket, perhaps for leisure.

3:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But more often than not, it's corporate travel when it's to do with those that are travelling on business. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to add the week could obviously have a whole discussion, which we have discussed before about why first classes having a resurgence because in 2019, this discussion would have been very different now first classes back.

3:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just accept that reality as we move into this without going too much into why. [SPEAKER_00]: Back to your friends. [SPEAKER_00]: And you're right, because whether we were [SPEAKER_00]: If we were having the same conversation in 2021, we would have probably been joining those that were declaring, not our France, but at least first class dead, right, and here we are now the beginning of 2026 and first class is back with revenge, it is on the on the plans and the lips of airline executives across the world, including our France, who traditionally had [SPEAKER_00]: The La Première first class is a super exclusive niche end of first with an impeccable ground service and a product a cabin in the air that is super inaccessible and deliberately so, right?

4:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, only four seats per aircraft, all of them sold out on flights to LA, for example, can be weeks or months in advance, because they don't have that much, they may get extremely expensive. [SPEAKER_01]: So as you said, the upper end of the market, what else do we think when we think our friends first class?

5:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, no invited guests, no complimentary upgrades, almost impossible to book on points for 99.9% of people, and then of course you have the seat itself. [SPEAKER_00]: So, what I think of La Première, the first thing I think of are the curtains. [SPEAKER_00]: Quite unusual, right, in that air France have these floor to ceiling length curtains instead of a door that kind of encloses you as a private suite.

5:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Grey some visible dirt. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see anything that I think is is beautifully designed. [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of looks like a dentist Darius and I've always been of that belief. [SPEAKER_01]: What do you like like a like a French Glamourist dentist because like a French chic dentist [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

6:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the thing has always been that it's very understated. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not, it's the polar opposite to Emirates. [SPEAKER_01]: It's supposed to be for the people who know. [SPEAKER_01]: If you know, you know, it has done well over the past few years. [SPEAKER_01]: So there hasn't really been a need for a fully enclosed suite with all these bells and whistles.

6:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, everyone was very intrigued when we heard that Air France was working on a new first class because as I said, the old seat, although you say it gives dentist vibes, it was good. [SPEAKER_01]: It was extremely elegant, it did the job well for the market, it was serving, but why not everyone heard?

6:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, Air France is coming out with a new first class. [SPEAKER_01]: given the pricing, given the positioning, I think the expectations were very high. [SPEAKER_01]: What is the kind of thing that you would be expecting from a new first class, from the most exclusive first class in the market, Alex?

7:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, firstly, it's the signal that the airline is sending to the industry when they decide to have an event. [SPEAKER_00]: That's number one. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're having an event, typically it means that you really have something to show. [SPEAKER_00]: So they decided to have an event in Paris.

7:18 [SPEAKER_00]: They extended that invitation and [SPEAKER_00]: Much of the world we're going to gather in Paris for this big launch of Air France's new first class So where did my head go to answer your question? [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking okay, it's or of why with the dentist chair and instead we are going something that is way more kind of French luxury I don't think that we were going to stick to the kind of older seed with the grays and no finishes and kind of no [SPEAKER_00]: Everything feeling very intentional, very controlled, but very, you know, the thick floor to sealing curtains as kind of the uniqueness of it, I was thinking we're going to get revolution.

8:00 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a revolutionary product that no more will it be just the big grey sofa arm chair that extends into a flat bed and connects to the ottoman on the other side, but actually [SPEAKER_00]: that our France will use this opportunity given the 1 billion euro investment to really wow us with something that perhaps we haven't even seen before.

8:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it would look similar to some of the leaders in first class, but I think I was expecting, okay, this is going to be a big moment for European aviation and a massive signal to the industry that post pandemic. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it wasn't that long ago, but post pandemic. [SPEAKER_00]: Air France was so confident in its ability to make first-class work that they're here with a revolutionary design to capture the attention from the likes of the Gulf carriers and Singapore Airlines and really unveil something impressive.

8:58 [SPEAKER_00]: That was my first feeling. [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think when you received the invitation in your inbox? [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you, the expectation was extremely high. [SPEAKER_01]: The invitation made it clear that the event is in plus vendom, probably the most glamorous famous spot for luxury in all of Paris, the door out to the spot.

9:21 [SPEAKER_01]: The door next to the rits, that's where the event was taking place. [SPEAKER_01]: And it really seemed like no expenses were spared. [SPEAKER_01]: So that should tell you a lot about what we could expect from the products, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to tell you all about the launch event.

9:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just want to fast forward to January 26 when I start thinking about it. [SPEAKER_01]: what what has happened because the the reason the thought popped into my head that is this new seat from our friends actually sort of a flop in a way is that as you mentioned this has always been an extremely exclusive [SPEAKER_01]: an inaccessible product.

10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And a big part of that, the differentiates it from Emirates first class, where it feels like there's at least one influencer on every Emirates first class flight, taking photos, taking videos. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, most of them are not there for free, but a lot of people are getting free tickets to fly here and there and promote the product.

10:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Air France was the opposite of this. [SPEAKER_01]: They have celebrities [SPEAKER_01]: and all matter of A-listers flying with them, they do not want people with cameras, taking photos on board, it's a very exclusive experience. [SPEAKER_01]: Yet, my social media feed, especially, let's say in the second half of last year, was one person after the next that probably 10 people alone [SPEAKER_01]: in the new La Première in order to promote it, or, quote, review it.

11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So what does that tell us? [SPEAKER_01]: That to me indicates that something has changed and I'd say when you're introducing a new first class, the goal is to make it more exclusive and more [SPEAKER_01]: inaccessible potentially to make it be perceived as even more luxurious. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's let's go back to March 2025 to explain just what happened kind of after you had accepted the invitation.

11:28 [SPEAKER_00]: We were together, were we? [SPEAKER_00]: We were on our way back from Korea and Singapore. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you continued on to Paris for the event. [SPEAKER_00]: So just take us back then to the event for, I mean, as you say, we've spotted the red flags, but I think it's helpful if we, if we go straight to the event.

11:47 [SPEAKER_00]: precisely. [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, it's plus Vendom, it's Paris, it's extremely impressive upon arrival. [SPEAKER_01]: They've made a whole display of their frame, the history of our friends with uniforms and [SPEAKER_01]: waiters walking around serving champagne and it's all very elegant.

12:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Then we walk into the media room where the reveal will be taking place and at the end of the room is a massive red stage basically with an air France La Première logo on it. [SPEAKER_01]: indicating to everyone that behind that is the new seat, something big, and something bold is about to take place here.

12:32 [SPEAKER_01]: We get speeches from the designers, from the head of La Première at our friends, from the CEO Ben Smith, and then the moment comes. [SPEAKER_01]: They start playing [SPEAKER_01]: turning around to reveal the same seat as our friends has traditionally had in first class. [SPEAKER_01]: So the room is silent, everyone's wondering, okay, we've seen this, where is the new seat?

13:02 [SPEAKER_01]: a subtly one of the product designers who had spoken earlier starts clapping. [SPEAKER_01]: So the room looks around, people start clapping too. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And we realize what we think is the old seat is actually the new product. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not exactly the first reaction you want, right?

13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_00]: I remember and I'm just referring to our text messages in the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: I asked you, you know, make sure you send me, make sure you get the first photo I want to see exactly exactly what it's going to look like and you sent me a seat and before I could even present you, Dan, you're sending me the currency, I know what that looks like, I'm asking you to send me the you send me Alex, this is the new seat.

13:48 [SPEAKER_00]: to it. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't reply for a good few minutes because I'm zooming in ready to correct you. [SPEAKER_00]: A peculiar choice, not in terms of that design, not in just, but [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, first of all, it was didn't even match the level of the reveal. [SPEAKER_00]: You were all gathered there in Paris for something that was a refinement rather than a redefinement.

14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Precisely, and that was the first impression. [SPEAKER_01]: Then Ben Smith, CEO, Getsup on stage and starts explaining what are the differences. [SPEAKER_01]: So this seat now has five windows instead of four. [SPEAKER_01]: So the length of the seat searches five windows. [SPEAKER_01]: that's incredibly impressive, then he shows us that the former footstool basically has now turned into an additional couch that reclines and turns into a bed.

14:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So now we have a separate seat and a separate bed. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a huge development and very impressive. [SPEAKER_01]: We have one entertainment screen on each side of the seat so that when you're in bed and you're facing one way you can watch TV and that direction when you're in your seat and you're facing the other way you can watch TV and that direction.

14:59 [SPEAKER_01]: There are all types of really thoughtful, impressive elements to the seat and the more he spoke about it and then when I got to go up and check it out. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this is good. [SPEAKER_01]: This is really good. [SPEAKER_01]: It's maybe not as revolutionary as we might have expected, but this is a very nice development.

15:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But what is the problem? [SPEAKER_01]: And why is our friends suddenly noticing that we need to get the word out more about this seat? [SPEAKER_01]: the initial reveal explains it all. [SPEAKER_01]: If you can't see what the difference is on a one second glance, does that mean this whole one billion retrofit investment was a waste?

15:46 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the conversation that runs them many have been having about La Permia, a cabin that they typically wouldn't even make an effort in informing the world exists. [SPEAKER_00]: They are now actively 12 months later. [SPEAKER_00]: trying to push for fear that the sentiment that we've just been describing is taking over any kind of development with cabin involves a lot of money, right?

16:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And this in our front submitted that they had spent over a billion euros, not just on this cabin, but in upgrades across the premium experience. [SPEAKER_00]: So we decided at that point a year ago that we'll give them the benefit of the doubt. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you know, my description of it is that okay, the space is longer, [SPEAKER_00]: five windows instead of four.

16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: My argument at the time was that length alone in terms of this cabin product doesn't equal innovation. [SPEAKER_00]: Right? [SPEAKER_00]: What you're experiencing is like the old La Première stretched out but not transformed. [SPEAKER_00]: The privacy still comes from the curtains in fabric when we're in an era where first-class competitors offer solid walls and doors that shut your way completely.

16:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Air France still relying on the same soft enclosure that it's always [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, they would point to us at the time that there was the new layout, which you just touched on. [SPEAKER_00]: But again, that's not a leap forward. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a rearrangement. [SPEAKER_00]: This scene hasn't evolved into something new.

17:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been separated. [SPEAKER_00]: The bed isn't revolutionary. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a long place by the window. [SPEAKER_00]: It looks... You know, it feels like someone took the old suite, pulled it apart, and said, let's call this the brand new first class. [SPEAKER_00]: Gather everyone in Paris and try to say that we're revolutionising the industry with this.

17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, they did start to refer to it as familiar. [SPEAKER_00]: They did start to, you know, those words that had initially popped up about perhaps it being a revolution quickly faded away. [SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder if it's because the red flags that we had spotted in our earlier concerns started to come to the surface.

17:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And how do we reach the point where you and I discussed this today? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, [SPEAKER_00]: The biggest red flag, as you touched on, we start to see people being flown about in this cabin for free. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if that's, if that wasn't the case with the old product, you certainly wonder why it needs to be done with the new one.

18:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're, we're not saying this as a way of just attacking our friends or belittling this product. [SPEAKER_01]: Because it has really interesting implications in our opinion for the industry as a whole. [SPEAKER_01]: Because it asks the question, in 2026, what matters when you're introducing a new first-class product?

18:29 [SPEAKER_01]: What should you think about as an airline, to me as a passenger, often the soft products elements, the non-tangible things, are the most important, like having an amazing ground experience, like what Air France offers, like having good food, like what in my opinion, at the out-of-an-ammer itself, for in-first class, like having good, consistent service, like in Singapore's suites, you know the service, every time we'll be amazing, but none of those things [SPEAKER_01]: really translate to someone who's seeing a product online, right?

19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it more important these days to just invest in a good flashy seat? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think or where do you choose to focus? [SPEAKER_00]: I just think the standards are higher and for any airline [SPEAKER_00]: I think we are now more on the side of revolution rather than evolution.

19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We need to, as an industry, recognize that what many airlines have done, such as Japan Airlines and others, is really trying to rip up the rulebook and show that if you are going to be paying, [SPEAKER_00]: the highest ticket prices in the world in commercial air travel, ticket prices in some scenarios that close the gap between commercial and private jets, then you need to be offering innovation after innovation and USP after USP to be able to deliver a unique experience for your specific [SPEAKER_00]: but that the airline understands its market and understands what the every day requirements and needs are of a of a premium passenger in 2526 but also the wow moments the parts that that where the airline is supposed to demonstrate to you as the passenger that they're ahead of you in thinking about that it's that the surprise moments that where you you're sitting down and you're delighted to discover

20:44 [SPEAKER_00]: something that hadn't even crossed your mind and there was the airline with it all figured out and already there and already done whether it's a new innovation or the way that it presents something to or the way something is cleverly designed. [SPEAKER_00]: Those memorable things I think are the takeaways.

20:58 [SPEAKER_00]: That will actually, before I come to the next one, what do you think about that? [SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree from a passenger perspective, but the real question is, as you are hinting at a long time ago, is the point of first class these days, since it's not really the big money maker, what is the point?

21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we know that premium economy for a lot of airlines is where they make the most money. [SPEAKER_01]: then business. [SPEAKER_01]: So for many airlines, first class is the second lease profitable cabin just above economy class. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the first class sells well. [SPEAKER_01]: So what is the point of dedicating so much space to first class?

21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: In a way for an airline like Air France, it's in order to target a specific segment who's still wants to be able to engage with the airline and fly first class. [SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: is first cause for a lot of airlines nowadays, really about the halo effect that it brings. [SPEAKER_01]: We've spoken about this at length before as well, but the halo effect, when we talk about that, it's how does this elevate someone's perception of the brand as a whole?

22:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Emirates is really the master of this with their first class. [SPEAKER_01]: They go away with having a two, four, sorry, two, three, two business class on their triple sevens for well over a decade after it should have been phased out. [SPEAKER_01]: And they still offer it on, you know, 60 or so triple sevens.

22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But people tend to forget about that when they see Emirates first class, because when you see something that looks so glamorous and impressive, you go surely this brand has a lot of redeeming qualities. [SPEAKER_01]: Same kind of thing applies to Singapore Airlines. [SPEAKER_01]: Their A380 suites are so massive and so groundbreaking that people forget that their business class is [SPEAKER_01]: fine, but it's nothing industry-leading.

23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: They might be leading in other cabins, but the first class of fact can really help an airline to command a premium in all of their cabins. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that although Air France would never admit to this. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, part of making an investment in a new product when their existing product was perfectly adequate was to get a piece of that halo effect and make the whole brand, which they're very actively trying to make more premium across the board.

23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: The new first house was meant to be a part of that, a part of elevating people's perception of air France as a whole and maybe that is where they miscalculated what effect this new sea would have. [SPEAKER_00]: That's extremely valid because brand prestige and how an influence perception goes far beyond just the seat itself and it is an interesting example that you had said regarding [SPEAKER_00]: that are showing off first class routinely and so much of most people are aware if they are aware of Emirates, they can picture in their head first class or perhaps they can picture the bar and it's funny because the halo effect trickles all the way down to the passenger who travels once a year, perhaps it's a family holiday that traveling once a year, they've booked to fly Emirates

24:28 [SPEAKER_00]: and they're going to Asia from Europe and when they return back to Europe and they're at the dinner table and they're telling their friends about their wonderful trip, the friend asked who they flew it and they say Emirates and the response is, oh wow! [SPEAKER_00]: And in that head, the neighbour, the friend, [SPEAKER_00]: The relative is thinking of everything they've seen in the adverse.

24:48 [SPEAKER_00]: The amazing first class on the A318 and so on. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, did you fly on the A318? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes, we did. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, gosh, that's amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: How was the flight? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was great. [SPEAKER_00]: And so the whole conversation is happening as if, for example, that they, this self-family were flying in first class or a business or were at the bar.

25:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, one, of course, in more often, they're not. [SPEAKER_00]: scenarios, they were just in economy, but they were riding that halo effect wave, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's the most effective tool to justify at least the spend that is involved in premium cabins. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you know what drives me crazy is that if you ask almost anyone at an era line I know I think we've experienced this at some points together.

25:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you ask them about the Halo effect and they go what do you mean? [SPEAKER_01]: We don't care about that. [SPEAKER_01]: That's irrelevant. [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't make us money [SPEAKER_01]: But I know that subconsciously, they're all thinking about this. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no better example, forget about first class.

25:54 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no better example of a halo effect than the history that British airways has. [SPEAKER_01]: Their history is their halo effect, which if you think about the UK, there's so many brits who still think, I only fly BA. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't give virgin a try. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't fly international airlines.

26:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm loyal to BA, even though everyone in the UK knows that BA is not at all what it used to be. [SPEAKER_01]: It's significantly reduced in quality, let's just say that particularly in economy, but people will still choose to pay more to fly with BA because [SPEAKER_01]: of the brand history and the value that people associate with that.

26:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's various types of halo effects, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: The former prestige associated with the brand is one of them, but how do you create new prestige if you want to rise in the ranks? [SPEAKER_01]: First class can be very important for that. [SPEAKER_00]: The interesting comment you would say touched on is the size of first class [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, it's, first class can be, and in many scenarios, is a financial risk because the tickets are so niche and your demographic of travellers is such a small pool of people that actually, it can be very difficult if not deployed strategically on the correct aircraft, on the correct route, at the correct time with the correct frequencies, you're looking at

27:26 [SPEAKER_00]: what we think about the size of first class cabins going forward because my point of view is that where it was dead in 2021 and we thought it was, you know, no more first class and that's that. [SPEAKER_00]: And now it's back with revenge. [SPEAKER_00]: I still think it in order to work.

27:43 [SPEAKER_00]: airlines should be reintroducing or investing or reinvesting in first class in a modest way. [SPEAKER_00]: I think no more than a few seats per record, that is more than enough, not just to satisfy the economics of the flight, but also to better actually reflect the fact that business class is incredibly in demand first class just not so much.

28:05 [SPEAKER_01]: precisely. [SPEAKER_01]: So then there's that's a question of strategy, right? [SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing a lot of airlines go for maybe four to six seats in their new cabins. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a few different directions airlines can take, right? [SPEAKER_01]: What Etihad ironically is doing, whether it's A321LRs, where they have decided we're going to offer first class, but instead of going after the traditional first [SPEAKER_01]: We are going after people who would normally pay for business class, but as they do their search on our website, they'll see, oh, well, first class is only $300, $400 more.

28:44 [SPEAKER_01]: How about I try that? [SPEAKER_01]: Knowing that the seat might not be significantly better, but they'll get first class lounge access, they'll get first class dining. [SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps they see that as a way to extract a bit of extra revenue while still maintaining an era of premium as opposed to introducing a business class plus, for example, which is what a lot of other airlines have done with the equivalent product to what Etihad is calling for a class.

29:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Then there's the trip, there's all the first costs in the middle of the market, as I would say, British Airways, Loftonza, Swiss, almost every first class is in the middle of the traditional segment. [SPEAKER_01]: But our friends has chosen the third path, which is really to go after the people who might have traditionally tried to go for private jets.

29:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to give a few price examples to illustrate [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a lot of people are unsure as to exactly, you know, we hear it all the time, don't we? [SPEAKER_00]: The misconceptions that, oh, business class, all that must cost £10,000, no, no, not at all, not in almost every scenario.

29:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And so then where does that leave first? [SPEAKER_00]: So definitely take us through that. [SPEAKER_01]: precisely. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just did a sample search here on some relatively cheap dates from Singapore to New York. [SPEAKER_01]: I like to compare this route just because we have almost every airline possible competing that offers first class here.

30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So on the lower end, we have Air India coming out at $7,500 [SPEAKER_01]: In first class, let's see what Etihad is. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always curious about that. [SPEAKER_01]: Etihad on certain dates comes in around 9,000. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, this is not even their A321 XLR. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the E3D apartment on one flight and the 787 on another, but they're coming in on the lower end.

30:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_01]: Emirates around 13, 14,000 in their first class round trip. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have the legacy Asian carriers for first cost to New York. [SPEAKER_01]: So A&A, Cathy Pacific, Japan Airlines, those come in around 14 to $20,000 round trip, a crazy amount. [SPEAKER_01]: Air France, the lowest price available on any day, and keep in mind is higher on this on most days, is $30,000 round trip.

31:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: So remember what I said, Emirates, about 13,000, 13 to 14, Air France is coming in at $30,000 on the cheapest date. [SPEAKER_01]: So that illustrates these totally [SPEAKER_01]: and segmentation. [SPEAKER_00]: The interesting part is that does take me back to our conversation on how they can feel that that is justified.

31:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Why is it that that is, you know, that's how they are positioning themselves, but they are not delivering anywhere near the best experience currently, not least with then what they unveiled as that new inverted commas first class in March 2025. [SPEAKER_00]: airlines have to do in order to ensure that this cabin is a respected but also works for both sides for the airline but also for the consumer for the passenger because in my idea of the ideal first class now positioning [SPEAKER_00]: on an aircraft that's not an A380 because they're being phased out.

32:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's let's I mean let's even park the triple 7x for a moment because it's not even certified. [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll talk about an A350 and we'll say that we have the design an A350 that's in service today and it's a new first class that Dan and I are in charge [SPEAKER_00]: of ultimately delivering for the premium highest-end consumer.

32:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I think my fundamentals are number one, the bed and the seat need to be separate. [SPEAKER_00]: Number two, I need a color palette that makes me feel I'm at the fourth season's. [SPEAKER_00]: I need a color palette that is not the white lotus. [SPEAKER_00]: or at the white lotus. [SPEAKER_00]: I need a colour palette that is infused with the national carriers kind of home market, the tones and the culture, but but I need I need it to feel special.

32:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I need the magic of air travel delivered. [SPEAKER_00]: I need there to be moments of I didn't expect that. [SPEAKER_00]: I need the surprise and delight. [SPEAKER_00]: I need it to feel [SPEAKER_00]: Refined the service to the service to match that at the highest standard, but I guess let's go back to fundamentals.

33:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The separate bed and seat, I need the bed to be as close to a luxury hotel bed as possible. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not talking about the quality of the mattress, but rather, [SPEAKER_00]: where Singapore Airlines lead currently is I think that beds on their authority first class are phenomenal because they resemble white crisp sheet hotel beds and who I mean who doesn't love the novelty of being on a plane and [SPEAKER_00]: and having these big white pillows and beautifully crisp white sheets that we are used to in beautiful hotel rooms but in the confines of an aircraft cabin I think even the most frequent of flyers like UNI would time and time again get excited by how wow the Singapore Airlines really care about me here what do you think yeah

34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree, and I think this is the fundamental problem in Air France's reasoning, because if you look at what they've tried to do with La Première, I discuss the pricing just now, [SPEAKER_01]: what they're essentially doing is they're emulating the French luxury brands. [SPEAKER_01]: They're looking to the likes of her.

34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't actually need to have the best quality. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's think of these brands. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have the best quality bag or the best quality clothing. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just about people's perception of the value of that product. [SPEAKER_01]: It's the exclusivity of it that makes people willing to pay [SPEAKER_01]: Twice or three times as much for a suitcase will probably ten times as much in the case of those brands For a suitcase from Louis Vuitton.

34:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say rather than a suitcase from Samsonite Air France is trying to elevate La Première in the way the French fashion houses elevate their products without offering the best But the question if you look at what you just said and I I totally agree with What interests me in a first-class product?

35:14 [SPEAKER_01]: brand appeal and brand prestige isn't alone going to make me interested in flying within airline because at the end of the day we're there for 12 hours or six hours in the case of New York to Paris. [SPEAKER_01]: and we want the best possible experience, not the most exclusive, let's say, impressive branding experience, right?

35:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not after that, especially because there's no one there with us. [SPEAKER_01]: The only people there to see that we're doing it, [SPEAKER_01]: are the other people who are already flying La Première. [SPEAKER_01]: No one else can see us and the other people in La Première don't care.

35:53 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not impressed by us flying La Première. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not the same as buying a Irmez bag. [SPEAKER_01]: Let alone being able to achieve the status to be able to get a burkin where you can show everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: Look at me. [SPEAKER_01]: I have this now. [SPEAKER_01]: Most people are applying who are in the price category to fly our friends' club premiere or not interested in showing it off.

36:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's really the boiling point. [SPEAKER_01]: When you boil all this down, that's what this comes down to. [SPEAKER_01]: They're going for an exclusive brand, but what people ultimately care about and what they noticed when they introduce this new seat is that if you're going to invest, what people care about is having the best possible experience and the best product.

36:38 [SPEAKER_00]: The emotional core of first class for me has to be there. [SPEAKER_00]: It has to feel that everything slows down in that moment where nothing feels rushed, where you haven't had to cue, no awkward pauses, that you're not part of a predictable system, where they're moving you along in terms of the service going from one box to the other.

37:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think Ellen should focus on a service element that quietly signals, you're not on the clock anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: clear where you need to be. [SPEAKER_00]: You've bought it and now it's up to us to get you there and we're going to get you there on time, but you don't need to worry about that concept of time throughout the long haul flight that you're on.

37:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, and you make a great point because first class you need to feel, you know, it's not the, it doesn't come with the bragginess of the other cabins and that's deliberate. [SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel about touch points? [SPEAKER_00]: and the collaboration with high end brands in their touch point.

37:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So, for example, I know that, well, I'll ask you first. [SPEAKER_00]: What, how would you feel if, you know, the menu was sponsored by, you know, or a dessert was a, a do-or dessert, for example, because that's any add-ons attempt to elevate with first class there. [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's a, I don't know, a creme brulei, but from the do-or cafe.

37:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, those types of things help with perceiving the products as more valuable because you see brains you recognize. [SPEAKER_01]: So if the toiletries and the bathroom are from deep teeth or a soap as opposed to being air-franced branded, that's a nice thing. [SPEAKER_01]: So in a Francis case, I think they have sizzling all those types of things, if it does [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.

38:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So there are the only brand that I can think of that has a design house, making their in flight pajamas. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a separate discussion because it's not quite checklist me. [SPEAKER_01]: Check me making it, but anyway, what do you think? [SPEAKER_00]: Does that matter a lot to you or is it?

38:39 [SPEAKER_00]: It matters in some ways. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, bathroom amenities, a vanity kit and so on, but I would rather [SPEAKER_00]: a collaboration with a chef on the menu rather than the inception of an LVMH brand. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, I would also rather that, you know, the whole thing, the design element is centered on how it makes you feel so that you can also feel in control of how the experience makes you feel.

39:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And I say that because you should be able to control the light, the sound, the space, the quality of your sleep, the interaction, the whether or not deep sleep is guaranteed because [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if first has were able to be unveiled in a flat-premiel were able in your event last year in Paris to say, this is how we are guaranteeing you.

39:25 [SPEAKER_00]: the highest quality sleep in the sky that would have been a conversation I would really have loved to have heard. [SPEAKER_00]: That didn't happen, that doesn't happen. [SPEAKER_00]: We're not thinking, I think in so many scenarios, about how the passengers want to feel or how, but rather, this is maybe what it looks like on the surface.

39:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I know we're now separated the two. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about that. [SPEAKER_00]: We need to be thinking about what I go away with. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I'm leaving your cabin after, [SPEAKER_00]: After 10 hours of flight and and I've just paid almost $30,000 round trip. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's now gone the experiences over.

40:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm now in the cab right on on the way into central London So it's finished gone as 30k gone. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in that moment, I need to feel I need to feel so much [SPEAKER_00]: in order to return. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that little detail there hasn't been discussed nearly enough across boardrooms at airlines around the world.

40:26 [SPEAKER_00]: We're looking at it instead in a very two-dimensional way as to what does it look like? [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what does that look like? [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that looks okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's move on move forward with that. [SPEAKER_00]: That looks like we don't go for gold because that's for the golf car.

40:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's let's go the opposite of gold and we'll say how we're really [SPEAKER_01]: right and a central discussion to that as well that I don't actually think a lot of airlines are having either is what is our goal with introducing this new product. [SPEAKER_01]: So what let's be realistic about what are we actually trying to achieve because [SPEAKER_01]: I think our friends said we're going to try to make as good and functional a seat as possible for our existing clients.

41:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember at the event there was so much talk about we've surveyed our most frequent Lypronare flyers. [SPEAKER_01]: These are their problem points that they want us to address. [SPEAKER_01]: And they did that. [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of pain points removed. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's great.

41:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And as I said, once you get introduced to the seat, [SPEAKER_01]: Was that the goal and in that case? [SPEAKER_01]: Was it worth this massive investment when you really think about that? [SPEAKER_01]: Or perhaps is the goal to have a lot of marketing hype and to create to enable the airline to charge even higher prices?

41:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Because suddenly everyone knows about that premiere and everyone wants to fly it because it's been so hyped. [SPEAKER_01]: in that case the goal was not achieved. [SPEAKER_01]: So decide on the goal of introducing a new product and then proceed based on that more than trying to check several boxes and it's not the exactly, it's not that [SPEAKER_00]: It's that the boxes that need to be checked, it's the wider lens.

42:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess what I'm trying to say, the overview of the whole thing and not simply what we see, but instead learning from who is really leading in this category like, for example, Singapore Airlines, and we know that Singapore are going to soon be unveiling a whole different array of cabin products, which will be staying very, very [SPEAKER_00]: You've stayed tuned for, that's for sure, because anytime Singapore make a move, it's typically closer to the revolutionary side than the evolutionary, whether or not the last decade of innovations have changed that the interruption of the pandemic in the process and so on, we shall see.

43:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's been a good discussion to try to understand why, France, La Première, has perhaps been a bit of a flop. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we can conclude. [SPEAKER_00]: And then perhaps [SPEAKER_00]: as different airlines sit around the table to plan their future first class, the sense of direction that they can take and the opportunity there.

43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: 100% guys, we really want to hear your feedback on this episode. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you enjoy it? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you prefer these deep dives over the casual discussions that often take place here? [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think? [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know via Instagram or comment on YouTube or wherever you're tuning in.

43:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And we will regroup this time next week. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you again for being with us as we return with a brand new season. [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll see you next week on air. [SPEAKER_00]: See you then. [SPEAKER_00]: Bye bye. [SPEAKER_00]: See ya.