America's Worsening Aviation Crisis

0:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and welcome back to on air happy Wednesday one and all including you Dan. [SPEAKER_02]: How are you? [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for your gracious extension of a happy Wednesday to me. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm good. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm good. [SPEAKER_00]: How are you? [SPEAKER_02]: Not too bad.

0:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Just wondering what on earth is going on in the US because it seems that I'm waking and I realize that's quite a loaded question because there's a lot there on the US. [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm speaking [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, it is one thing after another there and not just that. [SPEAKER_02]: There also is no ending site.

0:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I've just had CNN on showing the footage of the departure halls, also the curbside, the drop-off areas for different terminals dotted across the US. [SPEAKER_02]: It looks like a nightmare and nobody has the solution, not even you, the American on the podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have the least solutions of anyone but it is concerning and to get anyone up to speed on what's going on.

1:05 [SPEAKER_00]: The sides, the issues we've been talking about since the inception of this podcast with, to having too few air traffic controllers, constant near misses, [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, the problems with the airlines themselves and the quality and not being profitable if it's not for credit cards, all that stuff.

1:23 [SPEAKER_00]: The U.S. is also currently in a government shutdown, which you might be aware of. [SPEAKER_00]: And you might think that is nothing to do with aviation, but the problem in the U.S. [SPEAKER_00]: Unlike in a lot of places, is then most airports. [SPEAKER_00]: which is ironic for the US are not privately owned or run.

1:41 [SPEAKER_00]: They are run by the government and a lot of the agencies at the airport, unlike in a lot of countries including in many places in Europe, are also run by the government, the TSA. [SPEAKER_00]: So you have TSA doing security. [SPEAKER_00]: You of course have air traffic control. [SPEAKER_00]: government employees and customs and border control of the CBP.

2:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So all of these agencies are government employees and currently while the government isn't shut down, no one who works for the government is getting a paycheck, which is one thing if you're a multi-millionaire like certain people in Congress or the president, [SPEAKER_00]: But if you are working paycheck to paycheck as a TSA officer, that's not so easy when you're over a month into the shutdown, right?

2:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is, you know, we're talking about the largest aviation economy and this government shutdown that started on the 1st of October. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's already hurtling towards becoming, I think, one of if not the longest shutdowns in history is really having an impact to put it into perspective [SPEAKER_02]: you know as listeners of the podcast how we have spoken about the state of play when it comes to air traffic control, ATC in the US and how there is chronic staff shortages in there, they're not paid enough, the rotors and rosters are a mess, they're struggling to get a day off, it's leading to fatigue, they're tired, they're [SPEAKER_02]: that it leads to short-staffing of shifts where one guy's handling positions that I should have originally been for three people but instead he's doing all three things at the same time and where you know just generally it's it's everything is dire so

3:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Those 13,000 now working unpaid, plus the 50,000 plus TSA staff responsible for security, also working unpaid, you can imagine. [SPEAKER_02]: as if they're willing would even want to show up at work in any kind of ordinary scenario given how the U.S. aviation sector is crumbling, but now with no pay and no end in sight for this government shutdown, America's aviation sector is broken.

4:12 [SPEAKER_00]: it really, really is. [SPEAKER_00]: And I just have to put a small note here that this situation today, when this episode is going out, it's exactly the government shutdown is exactly as long as the longest shutdown ever, which was 2018 to 2019, 35 days. [SPEAKER_00]: Today is the 35 day mark.

4:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm saying this because who knows between recording this and posting the episode, [SPEAKER_00]: this might change. [SPEAKER_00]: The shutdown might end because we're pushing into unseant territory. [SPEAKER_00]: So to speak, and the problem is that where aviation really comes into this, which is interesting is that if TSA suddenly decides that our TSA officers suddenly decide that, you know what?

4:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to work on paid anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to show up to work or air traffic controllers [SPEAKER_00]: 100% have the right to do because they're not being paid to do work and they're already not paid that much, especially the TSA officers. [SPEAKER_00]: If they stop doing that, suddenly aviation in the U.S. grinds to holes.

5:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And we always say all the podcasts, how in Europe, especially in the UK, aviation is like synonymous with holidays, vacation, any narrative like Gattwick was talking about Bill, he's going to expand to its second runaway. [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, now we'll [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no structure.

5:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Aviation is an essential part of the economy and no Exactly, and there's nowhere where that is more the case than in the US where people get on planes like it's the bus It's almost impossible to get around efficiently by train and [SPEAKER_00]: or the distances are too far to drive. [SPEAKER_00]: So aviation is an essential part of the U.S. And once that starts disappearing, even if just for a few hours, let alone a few days because so many flights have to be canceled due to lack of staffing.

6:10 [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of things in the US will grind to a halt, which means that aviation also has a lot of power in the US because suddenly, when your average American can't get from South Dakota to, I don't know, Idaho, random example, then they don't sell it. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know because it sounded, did you suggest Idaho because it sounded like, I don't know.

6:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought you were saying, I don't know, I don't know, I just was trying to think of like what's what's a random route. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was thinking more, I mean, what would have a greater impact to rule these congressmen and women senators, all these kind of DC, listen, let's say, right?

6:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Or just just those that are the real ancient dinosaurs that have been there forever. [SPEAKER_02]: when they're unable to commute into DC because many of them do fly home on a Friday across to other parts of the United States and then kind of positioning on a Monday. [SPEAKER_02]: When they're unable to do so and when it directly affects them, as you said, that's when suddenly things get done because they know, I think the US politician [SPEAKER_02]: who has been meamed everywhere over the last few years because of some of the wild things that many people believe are wild, that she says has been somewhat the champion of common sense in this scenario.

7:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you've seen it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because she herself is speaking about how, you know, these people are supposedly democratically elected into their positions, not to be there to maintain a government shutdown where, you know, people that are the key and essential to everyday life are not even being paid and when they are being paid, it's barely enough.

8:06 [SPEAKER_02]: and so she's recognizing this is not what we were put in there to do when when the in some of the interviews I've seen with her when she was pressed a little harder there were examples that she was providing of her children I think her adult children and [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking about the cost of health care in something that they were a procedure that they needed to get done and how it was The premium was so much more compared with two years ago and two years prior to that and she said that you know This is not what we were put in there and again the conclusion in all of the comments below [SPEAKER_02]: were okay look she's noticing finally like many noticing because it directly affects her and until it directly affects the decision makers it's someone else's issue and and I do think as you're right aviation could be really powerful here in the the whole state of the industry in the US is crumbling this actually might be what gets the shutdown to end and maybe for a

9:09 [SPEAKER_02]: come together and get this sorted. [SPEAKER_02]: If we zoom into certain areas, in New York, for example, in the New York area, they are reporting up to 80% of their traffic controller absences, 80% of course they're absent. [SPEAKER_02]: They've been unpaid for a month and showing up. [SPEAKER_02]: Daily.

9:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, it's one of the busiest skies in the world, highest workload that famous for being quite techy in their exchanges. [SPEAKER_02]: Their communication isn't great, they're stressed, you know, there are more delays now in the United States, caused by staffing issues than for any other reason, it's not weather, it in our accounts for over 50% of all flight delays.

9:53 [SPEAKER_02]: The FAA are training in certifications to bring more people on board a frozen and that's like a two-year backlog. [SPEAKER_02]: The TSAQ, so the security cues, for example, at at sometimes two hours, airlines are warning that this is simply untenable, can't continue because that crews are unable to even flow in and out and through airports.

10:20 [SPEAKER_02]: closing them to go out of hours before they even are able to depart. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a mess. [SPEAKER_00]: It is. [SPEAKER_00]: And just to add, as we wrap up on this topic, there's a reason speaking of it affecting people personally that Washington National Airport DCA is one of the nicest airports in the US with beautiful, [SPEAKER_00]: Great connections to most places in the US because this is the airport all the politicians are flying out of.

10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So of course, then it has to be nice and not resemble most airports around the country, which are frankly decaying and look 50-plus years old, which many of them are. [SPEAKER_02]: When I was 14 or 15, I think maybe 15, I did an internship a placement at UK Parliament at the House of Commons and I had applied very honestly and said that I didn't want a career in politics, but I was really interested in politics and therefore I wanted the value of the [SPEAKER_02]: internship that would be around Parliament and they had said that it would be a specific department and long story short I managed to get through the selection process and I was chosen to do this placement where they would they would take me out of school and I would spend a good amount of time at the house of Commons and then across different departments and I worked in the

11:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Foreign office and also the chamber and all different parts. [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway the reason I'm noting this is this links directly with what you just said about DCA Apple. [SPEAKER_02]: When I arrived for the first time I took the tube, the London Underground, [SPEAKER_02]: to Westminster and people that have been on the underground in London know what it looks like, obviously it is much better then for example the New York Subway but it's not that much better and it can be most of the stations look the same and you know it's exposed you stand well away from the yellow line because you know it's not as kind of dangerous if you're too near and whatever and the tube comes and plop a lot.

12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: When I first arrived at Westminster, I was, what is this? [SPEAKER_02]: You know that real sound, the sound that goes viral on like reals or TikToks if you have it where it's, this is nice, you know that, but because it's the first time as a kid that I had seen. [SPEAKER_02]: this immaculate tube station with glass doors that protect you to board their trains that was fully sealed off and high barriers and it looks like Asia and of course it's Westminster tube station because it's where the decision makers of the government are having to go every day and therefore they put all the money there to make sure that it looks great no no they later extended [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's interesting that for all these arguments about funding, when they want to make sure that certain elements that directly affect themselves are nice, funnily enough funding is available.

13:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is just something true of the Western world. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the sad truth. [SPEAKER_00]: So let's leave the US and mark this as developing or maybe develop by the time this comes out. [SPEAKER_00]: But it's interesting discussion on the last. [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to move on to quite a niche piece of news.

13:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But I find it noteworthy just because it's an airline we like to discuss on the podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: And it is Virgin Atlantic, who have announced that they are launching flights to Thailand, they're first through to Thailand, as of October next year, but unfortunately not to Bangkok, where we, I think we've previously said on the podcast, the Bangkok seems like the perfect place for Virgin to fly.

14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: No, they are launching flights between London, Heathrow and Pookeh, on October 18 next year, three times a week. [SPEAKER_00]: What was your thought when you saw this announcement from Virgin? [SPEAKER_02]: My thought was that Virgin Atlantic when they do these rude announcements, it would be great if they could also give us an end date because that's typically what happens.

14:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's all very well telling us when it's going to launch, but also just for forward planning purposes, I think it would be helpful to the public if they could, um, they could at the [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many examples of how Virgin Atlantic has now developed a reputation for announcing new routes and often with great fanfare, only to either quietly cancel them before they're even launched, acts them within a few months, or similar.

15:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It's São Paulo cancelled before it was launched twice, most recently this year. [SPEAKER_02]: Tokyo Hanada, it was relaunched post-pandemic and then dropped in less than a year. [SPEAKER_02]: Austin, ended less than 12 months after starting. [SPEAKER_02]: Hong Kong, restarted on paper, then permanently scrapped.

15:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Toronto and Chicago, longstanding roots have repeatedly floated, have been floated for a return only to then vanish for any future strategy updates. [SPEAKER_02]: They keep letting us know where they might fly. [SPEAKER_02]: or where they're going to fly and then and then either don't. [SPEAKER_02]: When they do, you can't be sure they're going to continue.

15:43 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, this is not an outline that is staying agile and responding to market trends. [SPEAKER_02]: This is an outline. [SPEAKER_02]: I believe to have poor corporate planning when it comes to network. [SPEAKER_02]: What do I think of the route? [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, like all of the others, I hope it works.

16:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I can see a market, but I can... [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, easy, if you see that announcement in less than nine months that it didn't work, whatever reason. [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think? [SPEAKER_02]: You are very much the Thailand guy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: First, just a small note that they are fine to Toronto now, and it seems to be sticking around.

16:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So, we'll see what happens with that, but it's one staley, so it's time for that. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the big problem for Virgin, I mean, there's many big problems, but they are really like, they shouldn't be called Virgin Atlantic, they should be called Delta Atlantic because their whole model since Delta acquired a stake is basically operating flights on behalf of Delta across the Atlantic and then all other routes [SPEAKER_00]: or sort of superfluous or they might be some sort of extension where Delta and Virgin passengers from the U.S. can connect.

16:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have Dubai, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Lagos, India, so Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore. [SPEAKER_00]: But everything else is tough because Americans are not going to fly through London to get to Pugat or London to get to Seoul. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so here they're only relying on these longer flights.

17:12 [SPEAKER_00]: They're only relying on people flying to or from the cities on each end because they don't have any regional connectivity themselves in Europe besides Air France KLM. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking only Paris and Amsterdam. [SPEAKER_00]: would be Korean era, which would make more sense than Puket, where there's pretty much no connectivity.

17:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just really surprised by this route. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like Bangkok would at least make more sense. [SPEAKER_00]: But more than anything, if they're going to go somewhere in Southeast Asia, I feel like Singapore would make sense. [SPEAKER_00]: Because airlines are pumping capacity into Singapore.

17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: We just had Qatar announced the A380 is going to go to Singapore. [SPEAKER_00]: Etihad flies the A380 to Singapore. [SPEAKER_00]: Qatar and Emirates fly many times a day. [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, BA flies multiple times a day. [SPEAKER_00]: So, Singapore, a higher yield market, one that would make sense for the flight time that's not much longer than Puket or Bangkok, but this is purely a leisure route, so that means you can charge the same type of prices, it's only three times a week, it's also 14 hours on the return, which is really quite an agonizing flight, where I feel like the [SPEAKER_00]: the brits who would look at taking that flight might just be like okay do buy a six hours I'll go there instead because I feel like maybe put cat in do buy have a slightly similar market but we'll see how this does and I make I'm of course really excited because I we both love Virgin Atlantic so I'm really excited to see them fly to Thailand I just feel like this is set up to fail

18:59 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I was surprised that, you know, this is a leisure driven route, right? [SPEAKER_02]: This is the winter-sum market of Puket and obviously point to point, obviously X, UK. [SPEAKER_02]: But there is no real kind of premium feed into here. [SPEAKER_02]: So does that mean that, again, Virgin is shifting strategy towards [SPEAKER_02]: Lecher rather than the legacy of kind of premium long haul is this for me this puts them more in the in the Competition category of two Quite a decent dominance on on for example outbound UK to places like Puket where they really have a loyal group a loyal demographic [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting.

19:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it looks alright on paper, but many of that previous announcement did too, whether or not it will survive the yields and also survive the fact that it's only through times a week, which again isn't amazing, but also they can't. [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't whether they can do a tag or something like that by Bangkok or you know, right?

20:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, good idea actually, but I do feel to be devil's advocate a little bit that we need to remember that Virgin has for a long time had this. [SPEAKER_00]: dual business model on the one hand flame business travelers to or from the US. [SPEAKER_00]: But on the other hand, they fly from Manchester and Edinburgh to a few vacations, bolts like Las Vegas or Lando.

20:27 [SPEAKER_00]: They had a huge base at Gatwick, which they shut down, which was their leisure base, similar to what BA as a Gatwick. [SPEAKER_00]: They only fly to Bangkok from Gatwick, BA and not Heathrow. [SPEAKER_00]: But Virgin also flies to loads of places in the Caribbean. [SPEAKER_00]: They fly to the mall, thieves obviously, one of the highest [SPEAKER_00]: Yield or most expensive destinations in the world, so very different from Puket in that sense.

20:51 [SPEAKER_00]: They fly to Cancun. [SPEAKER_00]: So, maybe the Puket route is most similar to a Cancun, where the Cancun is also three times weekly. [SPEAKER_00]: It's serving the segment that likes Virgin because they're more youthful and fun. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I wish them luck. [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that [SPEAKER_00]: And any sort of exciting thing from Virgin is exciting to me.

21:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I've got a few notes on it as well that I had made when Virgin announced this, which is that Virgin Holidays has been expanding, specifically in Asia-Pacific, all of the leisure packages. [SPEAKER_02]: So it does tie in with with the cosmoly offerings, with barley, but of course they don't fly there.

21:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So this route helps them kind of integrate those cells, I guess. [SPEAKER_02]: The other part is that if you're looking at the origin and the UK, British and European tourists do have many, many options when it comes to Thailand. [SPEAKER_02]: You have obviously the nonstop flights with tyreways, with EVA, now with BA, but from Gatwick.

21:56 [SPEAKER_02]: then you have everything excellent one stop which tend to be lower fairs but better quality. [SPEAKER_02]: So those are the golf carriers, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, also Turkish, the Fina from Fimland. [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact actually it's interesting that you say that because and I'm just going to bring this up because it was only yesterday.

22:22 [SPEAKER_02]: We just [SPEAKER_02]: Bear with me while I go to it. [SPEAKER_02]: Here we go. [SPEAKER_02]: Finair will have a record number of flights to Thailand next winter, betting on it still being one of the most significant markets and profitable markets for international aviation. [SPEAKER_02]: With more frequencies than ever to Bangkok as well as direct flights to Krabi.

22:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Finnell will have 25 weekly flights to Thailand by next winter, so that's a lot of ten times a week to Bangkok. [SPEAKER_02]: Four more flights than this winter next year. [SPEAKER_02]: With up to three daily frequencies, Bangkok continues to be one of Finnell's longest-standing winter ferris and the additional services been planned to support customers, travelling via Helsinki.

23:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Makes it very easy and one of the fastest ways to get there. [SPEAKER_02]: In terms of the seamless transit from London, where you can also fly between London and Helsinki on an A350, so you have some nice long haul consistency there, even for the short haul European part of the flight, it's a market that many airlines are betting on, I just feel that with virgins and never see their clear strategy and I don't think I'm being too cynical here because there are so many examples of it previously, but like he said, [SPEAKER_02]: We wish them the best.

23:37 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll give it a go. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see how they get on and then we'll read. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'd love to give it a go. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'd love to give it a go. [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we'll see. [SPEAKER_02]: When I say we'll give it a go, we'll allow them to give it a go.

23:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't necessarily mean that we need to book the 14 hours that you're on Virgin Art Act. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's fair. [SPEAKER_02]: Also, why are you only $1, $2, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1 [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit of irony, upper class on the 787-9 that is operating this room between London and Puket, upper class, what they are selling as essentially a first in business class product in Thailand.

24:10 [SPEAKER_02]: That same product is flying as a premium economy because the Thai passengers were asking what the hell these sardine can seats are on the aircraft that Thai airways have taken from Virgin Atlantic. [SPEAKER_02]: So once again, you'll have Virgin Atlantic present in Thailand. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just imagining something really beautiful here.

24:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Two of these aircraft, one from Virgin, one from Thai. [SPEAKER_02]: gate to gate next to each other and passengers are boarding up a class having spent 10 grand British pounds Yeah, the other passengers are boarding the same cabin and it's called premium economy. [SPEAKER_02]: They're upgraded for about 80 US dollars I know that's actually crazy [SPEAKER_02]: I think we should move in to some Q&A because we haven't been very generous with the amount of Q&A that we've managed to get through over previous episodes.

25:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think we'll dedicate some more time perhaps the rest of the episode to Q&A because there's quite a pile up, what do you think? [SPEAKER_00]: Good, let's do that. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we have a question here that we have received via the Instagram for the podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: So, David asks, hi down in Alex, big fan of the podcast.

25:17 [SPEAKER_02]: It's always on my ears when I'm commuting to Zurich. [SPEAKER_02]: My question, have you, anyone, have any one of you upgraded on multiple flights on the same day? [SPEAKER_02]: I've had a flight with Swiss from Heathrow to Zurich back to Hanover in Germany yesterday. [SPEAKER_02]: I was rebuked from London to Geneva to Zurich to Hanover, all three flights in economy, all three flights were very empty according to the seat map.

25:49 [SPEAKER_02]: When I arrived at the gate at Heathrow, [SPEAKER_02]: I was upgraded to business. [SPEAKER_02]: The same then happened in Geneva, and then again in Zurich. [SPEAKER_02]: The Star Alliance Gold Member with Lufthansa, very rarely, is there a free upgrade, but three times in a row on relatively empty flights I have never had so far.

26:06 [SPEAKER_02]: The bonus on top was that Zurich, oh, now I'm jealous, I can't believe this, who says the bonus on top was that Zurich, to Hanover, [SPEAKER_02]: was one of the a350 training flights. [SPEAKER_02]: The Swiss only been in service for five minutes. [SPEAKER_02]: So I got the chance to test the new Swiss census cabin.

26:25 [SPEAKER_02]: David, I don't know if we can answer your question because I'm a bit. [SPEAKER_00]: That is amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That is just like extreme luck. [SPEAKER_00]: One of those times how I lottery take it, I think. [SPEAKER_00]: Because I can see on the A350 flight, maybe they want to fill business for training purposes, perhaps that's not just that.

26:47 [SPEAKER_02]: They definitely want to kind of operationally upgrade a few starlines, gold members to say, you know, you're like that because you're, you're them, book it when you, you know, doesn't cost anything to hand over from zero, but it definitely [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's the other flights that don't really make sense.

27:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe it was something where it's like, if they decided beforehand, that the Zurich tan over flight will be upgraded, and then it's like, well, we can't really separate it. [SPEAKER_00]: So now they're all being upgraded, I don't know, but lucky you, that's pretty much unheard of, I would say.

27:22 [SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing, and we haven't, I don't think we've heard of such examples, so that's really cool, really cool. [SPEAKER_02]: Daniel, you've got the next question. [SPEAKER_00]: Congratulations. [SPEAKER_00]: So next question here is from James. [SPEAKER_00]: So he says, like many passengers, both of you enjoy food and prioritize that with your [SPEAKER_00]: curious, do you have preferences, allergies, or dietary restrictions?

27:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And if so, how have you handled airline slash crew miss understanding or limited menus in the past? [SPEAKER_00]: What airlines do this well and not so well? [SPEAKER_00]: Any stories or reflections? [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says, Dan, I know you're vegan, but do you have to sacrifice a meal until you're on the ground in [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a bit picky just because it depends on the island that I'm flying on.

28:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not confident in the inequality of the food of many airlines even in premium cabins. [SPEAKER_02]: There are some that I trust and I think are fine and have demonstrated that. [SPEAKER_02]: but there are some that haven't. [SPEAKER_02]: What comes to mind in a quick example is flying from Seoul to Bangkok on Thai Airways on the 350.

28:48 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a beef dish or a chicken dish but it looked disgusting. [SPEAKER_02]: And I had known that Tio is during that period, we're going through a patch about patch of their on board in flight dining. [SPEAKER_02]: And the frustrating parts that I didn't, I wasn't able to bring any food on board and I was starving.

29:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So then I thought, you know, I'm just going to try and give it a go. [SPEAKER_02]: And I looked at it. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm quite good at being able to compartmentalise in my head, no matter how hungry I am. [SPEAKER_02]: If it looks, you know, or not just looks, I was quite sure that looks like it has a higher chance of food poisoning, written all over it.

29:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Then anything else, it just looked gray and all four, and I said no. [SPEAKER_02]: But then the difficult part to answer James's question was, I said, is there a perhaps a vegetarian dish on board? [SPEAKER_02]: I know I was thinking yeah so no vegetarian dish, no other alternative, nothing as it do you have bread?

29:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes but no butter. [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so I had two, two like hard bread rolls and staff for seven hours onto our rife into Bangkok and then had the long journey to town and then [SPEAKER_02]: Finally eight and have the shakes. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but it's you You need to answer this question because as a vegan as difficult enough in as in your Aviga not me So as you are a vegan It's difficult enough for you in certain cities that are not so plant-based friendly You've got only knows how you do it on airlines that are like vegan.

30:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we've got vegan dishes. [SPEAKER_02]: He's the lamb very early [SPEAKER_00]: exactly I think the I've been very lucky and there's always my special meal on board when I take a long whole flight I'm trying to phrase this you know with your Greek superstition I'm trying to phrase it in a way that's positive so I don't jinx anything but my meal is always there [SPEAKER_00]: So that's great.

30:52 [SPEAKER_02]: There's only been your meal has always been there. [SPEAKER_00]: So thankfully, yeah, thankfully, and it will be in the future of course There have only been a few interior p.m. flights and for example, I think I mentioned this last week about how I flew from Geneva To London, so a very short flight and they hadn't loaded my vegan breakfast [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so that'd be a story you told us yeah, and then it was a it was like a one hour 15 flight So I didn't mind and I was given 10,000 avios compensation and I could like type it into the phone myself On the spot how much I wanted so and that's the situation was fine because When you sent me some as well because remember you said that you you had the crew's phone So you were just gifting avios on behalf of me

31:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I was saying you were 100k. [SPEAKER_00]: I forgot. [SPEAKER_02]: We were not supposed to mention that. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really like it. [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so anyway, on long haul flights, I always also bring snacks like protein bars in case the food is bad.

31:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And this year, my worst experience was on air India. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think in general, you find that the airlines or that are from countries [SPEAKER_00]: where there's generally a communication barrier, people, you know, some cultures will say yes, even though they mean no, because they don't want to say no to you.

32:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was served a dish that was very clear, like yogurt and stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, is this yogurt? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_00]: So does it, is this vegan yogurt? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_00]: So does it have milk? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just going like in circles and you can't get anywhere.

32:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So, eventually I was like, okay, I'm pretty sure I can't out eat this and I ended up eating very little on that 10 hour flight, which was part of what made me miserable. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think if you if you fly the right airlines, that won't be a problem. [SPEAKER_02]: You fly the right airlines, and also I do think it's just sensible to always have something in your bag anything.

33:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but if, if you look at, if you look in Asia, I mean, they're just such angels to crew most of the time and they're, oh, actually my longest flight ever where I didn't get the meal I ordered was LA to type a 14 hours on China Airlines and the crew, of course, being amazing and Taiwanese, but [SPEAKER_00]: cooked me a meal with stuff they assembled on board.

33:30 [SPEAKER_00]: They were like we have some tofu from this crew meal. [SPEAKER_00]: We have some fried rice from this one. [SPEAKER_00]: We have this and that. [SPEAKER_00]: They made sure everything was fine for me to eat and that would be one of my best food flights ever with what they assembled. [SPEAKER_00]: Similar on Singapore Airlines, there have been a few times where I booked it so last minute I couldn't order a meal.

33:48 [SPEAKER_00]: The crew every time will give me the crew meal. [SPEAKER_00]: Even though I say no, [SPEAKER_00]: And they present it beautifully, so, especially in those regions where the courage is so generous and so, a selfless, that's when it's usually not a problem at all. [SPEAKER_02]: That's really good.

34:10 [SPEAKER_02]: We have a question from Jay. [SPEAKER_02]: He says question on the topic of children since Alex hates them. [SPEAKER_02]: Joke low. [SPEAKER_02]: He says, Jay says, I recently had a flight where I was sent next to a mother and a child on her lap in inverted commas. [SPEAKER_02]: The child was old enough to walk and talk single words mostly, and she was quite rowdy throughout the flight.

34:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the child was rowdy. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't particularly like sitting next to a lap infant, but I do understand it. [SPEAKER_02]: However, this child was knocking over my canned beverage nonstop, throwing stuff at our feet, including food, and even coughing directly into my open cup.

34:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I can continue reading anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just a good joke. [SPEAKER_02]: So as Jay says, I was drinking up. [SPEAKER_02]: The mother was very kind and was certainly trying to do her best to stop it, but my question is at what point should airlines stop allowing this to happen.

34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: The chart did not even have a seeper on and spent most of taxi take up a landing standing between the mother's legs. [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a rule on this? [SPEAKER_02]: I feel as though it was really unsafe, I feel like a lot of this could have been avoided had the chart had their own seat.

35:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So obviously there are rules J as to the age that an infant has to be in order to have their own seat. [SPEAKER_02]: And often if you speak to parents, many of them are desperate for that. [SPEAKER_02]: as well for that infant, that child to be able to have their own seat because the parents don't love it either.

35:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But it is tough just because you get a free ticket basically if your kid is in your lap or you have to pay for entirely separate seat full price. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a bit of a double edged sword. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so while you are within that zone where they are with the mother, they can't have their own seat just, for example, for take off and landing and they have to be with the father or the mother or the parent.

36:02 [SPEAKER_02]: on the using the lap belt. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, there is legislation globally in that the same rules apply for kids, they have to be secure, it's an added risk, it heightens the risk of the parent, of the adult as well, in the event of anything unlikely, and so yes, there are absolutely rules in it.

36:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced, and how these rules are enforced,

36:26 [SPEAKER_02]: is patchy depending on the island that you're flying. [SPEAKER_02]: You often come across airlines that take it really seriously, they talk through with the parent or guardian about the expectations, they understand that the, sometimes they move them to a row where, okay, this seat is going to be empty, so I have the child to take off a landing, but when the seat button's on is off, then the child can have a bit more space, and [SPEAKER_02]: So there are airlines that have decent and sound policies in place for this.

36:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It just sounds like you got a bit unlucky there with probably a full flight and parents are Godans that didn't choose to have another extra seat that they would have had to have paid for and that comes out of cost to the other passengers You sit next to the kid because you'll then disturb throughout it's [SPEAKER_02]: So one of those things, it's why I don't think it's such a bad idea.

37:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I genuinely don't think it's a bad idea if there are, for example, 12 flights between London and New York Daily with airline A. I don't see why 11 of them can be for rule, but one of them can be kid-free. [SPEAKER_02]: Is that really that? [SPEAKER_02]: Is it really that shocking? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we'll not get into that.

37:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on here to a message from Charlie, which is really interesting, actually, because he works as a gate agent. [SPEAKER_00]: So he wants to follow up on the discussion we had a few weeks ago about why do they sometimes rip off the end of the boarding pass, why do they sometimes keep it intact?

37:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So he just wants to share a little bit of his perspective. [SPEAKER_00]: which is keeping the stuff stop of a boarding pass is not necessary for most boarding operations, but there are cases where by an agent might take it. [SPEAKER_00]: The boarding process is quick and mistakes can happen.

38:05 [SPEAKER_00]: One or two agents scan through hundreds of people and as a result, if we think something was wrong, a pass didn't scan correctly, someone either assistance or any other situation where we might. [SPEAKER_00]: want to take note of a specific passenger we pull the stub. [SPEAKER_00]: It's the easiest way to keep track and make sure mistakes are fixed after the main boarding flow.

38:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Dan also has a good question which is why passengers are paged by name and we do this for a few reasons. [SPEAKER_00]: If this occurs at the gate, it's often because we need a document or a visa verification for connecting passengers, passenger, yeah, I know that. [SPEAKER_00]: Or we need to talk to them about a sea change or something along those lines.

38:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But if it's on the aircraft, it's most often to confirm failure to board a passenger. [SPEAKER_00]: So like I said, boarding is fast and mistakes are made, so it's very common for boarding passes to scan incorrectly at the gate, and that passenger subsequently shows up as a no-show. [SPEAKER_00]: As a result, we always get the cabin crew to page the names of no-show passengers on the aircraft while we physically check the seats to ensure they're actually not on board.

39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though we check, we page as well in case they're in the wrong seat or in the laboratory, because the last thing we want is for someone to be all floated who's actually on board. [SPEAKER_02]: Fascinating because it is and I did I did kind of know this because that is why when you're on the aircraft And they make a PA you know if there's passenger Joe Biden on board Can he please make himself known to the crew now more often than not that cool button does not ring right that person doesn't Identity because the idea is that they're not on in the first place [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which makes me concerned about those times, because if you say they do this for no shows, imagine the times we've messed a flight, or happen to be a no show for whatever reason.

39:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they're announcing our names on the plane. [SPEAKER_00]: I assume they only do this if they see the pastor has checked in. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what if they're checked in online? [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, quite a crazy thing. [SPEAKER_02]: For then it depends they also know if they've cleared security or they've gone through that first check.

40:11 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have a question here from Khalil. [SPEAKER_02]: He says, loving the podcast with Alex and Dan more than ever. [SPEAKER_02]: A question. [SPEAKER_02]: American Adams has hired a former Delta Senior Executive as the new Senior Vice President of customer experience and design in what appears to be an effort to make the airline more premium American.

40:33 [SPEAKER_02]: What would your slash Alex's first moves be if you were in the shoes to fix American? [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering if we should actually get to this answer if we should or if we should leave this for an if we ran segment with American Airlines. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we can give a hint as to what we would do, but don't go into too much detail because American is a beast and that will make a pretty decent if we ran.

40:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, I think. [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, let's, let's save it, but let's save it with such teasers. [SPEAKER_00]: We can discuss just the part about, um, demhiring a former, uh, Sierra Delta executive. [SPEAKER_00]: Do we think that? [SPEAKER_00]: Do we think that that will help? [SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes it does.

41:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: The question is how deep of a cultural issue American has and if one person can fix that. [SPEAKER_02]: So Dan and I conclude that American is actually beyond repair. [SPEAKER_00]: So that is it for today's episode. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll cover it more with an if we ran and we'll link back to Khalil.

41:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, with that, we will wrap today's episode and reconvene this time next week. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's see if that US shutdown continues or if the power of aviation and our podcast by the time this is in a matter of hours. [SPEAKER_02]: In your feeds, wherever you get a podcast, has the power to bring some positive change for good in the US and get that industry back up and running because it's about to fall off the cliff.

42:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, speaking of for good, are you watching wicked for good in the movie theaters in a few weeks? [SPEAKER_02]: What is that? [SPEAKER_00]: it's the part it's part two of the wicked movies i have not seen part one oh my god this is criminal we have to take you to watch this immediately but anyway on that note maybe we'll watch it in puket maybe we'll get back to that landing to fly as bay in biais economy and by premium economy we meet up with close can't wait all right all right we will see you guys next week on air take care see you later