Delta vs United: The Battle for Global Route Dominance

0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and welcome back to on air every one. [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost Halloween and this year I'm really trying to get into the spirit are you? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh come on come on. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not Halloween Halloween is is you know this is [SPEAKER_01]: You're falling victim to what Wal-Mart has decided you should be excited about, please.

0:22 [SPEAKER_01]: This is creeping American holiday that is nothing. [SPEAKER_00]: I read this amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: It's the only day of the year you can dress up as a slutty pile. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a... That's a... what? [SPEAKER_00]: My god. [SPEAKER_00]: No, but... Can we start this episode again, please?

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Bloody hell. [SPEAKER_00]: Right, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So you like Halloween? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, have you watched the movie Hocus Pocus? [SPEAKER_00]: No. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, you will love it. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like classic Disney movie from where we were growing up. [SPEAKER_00]: How do you mean, but I just get used to it.

1:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, it's not. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Halloween looks nice in the sense of, I don't know, pumpkins in a pumpkin patch and things like that. [SPEAKER_01]: But then I think those things are associated more with autumn, more if you're an American because the leaves fall then fall, right?

1:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But I can't think that it looks, I don't think that Halloween itself is something [SPEAKER_00]: should I can't believe we're even discussing it honestly I you know get ready for the for the episode we're a minute in and you're justifying this fake consumer holiday no it's it's for the kids it I mean growing up as half American Halloween was my favorite holiday because it's the day you get to dress up you get to eat unlimited candy it's the mess let's move on what are you [SPEAKER_01]: I grew through that it's nice for kids because actually you just remind me of some sweet memories like being a kid having Halloween party.

2:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, also trick or treating and going to going to the house where we used to live, because that was excuse to see what they're done with like the hallway. [SPEAKER_01]: When they kind of do a run like seven years old and saying to my twin sister, [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, they moved the mirror in our house.

2:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, so your family is so British because you see my dad being American. [SPEAKER_00]: When we go to like houses, we use to live in. [SPEAKER_00]: He will knock on the door and say, we use to live here. [SPEAKER_00]: Can we come in and have a look around? [SPEAKER_01]: And then what did they do when they go, what does he do when he goes in?

2:51 [SPEAKER_01]: What does he say? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, we had an armchair here. [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's always because we lived in like six houses. [SPEAKER_00]: And then nine years we were in the UK, we kept moving. [SPEAKER_00]: And the bricks are always so nice. [SPEAKER_00]: They're always like, would you like a cup of tea?

3:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's just they're very welcoming. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think you do that if you're in America, family. [SPEAKER_01]: Knocked on my door and we're like hey, we used to live here. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like bullshit. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a scam. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm on I'm on the forums talking about guys There's a new scam in town.

3:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They knock up for 42 p.m. Every 10 they lived in your house, but their eyes are on your iPhone. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you see that video of where Jennifer Lopez is walking through the rocks and she goes up to the house and she's like, I used to live here and he's completely uninterested and he's like, I was your name, she's like Jennifer, she's like Jennifer what?

3:42 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like Jennifer Lopez expecting some kind of reaction and he looked at her like, what do you want? [SPEAKER_01]: It's so humbling. [SPEAKER_00]: It always cracks me up, I mean we're going on such a tangent, but there's always these videos going viral, people not knowing your gender for low piss is specific, I feel like the next person who's going to be in a mirror like ad is 100% gender for low piss, I'm calling it now.

4:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what, that's quite a good bet to put on the record, but I want that there is going to be with someone like Turkish Airlines. [SPEAKER_01]: or some, I feel like that's where Jaila would, I don't know, I can see them trying to turn their line. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe at least now, I'm arguably Turkish is both, but yeah.

4:30 [SPEAKER_01]: going back to the bit about the house, right? [SPEAKER_01]: The only thing I can relate to that is we were friends with the guys that bought our house. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we would go back for dinner for dinner parties and things like that, which was really, really weird because when you're sitting at the dining table that was your dining table for 12 years and that is in the house that you grew up in, then [SPEAKER_01]: You know, naturally, you know what, we're like, like, naturally, we're hosts, okay, love, love, love hosting, love having people around, blah, blah, blah, so then sitting in an environment that you used to view the host in, but actually being the guest and resisting the urge to go back into the kitchen and say, do you don't even want this?

5:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to take a dish, but also they used to refer to the bedrooms on the top floor as still, oh, that was in Alex's room. [SPEAKER_01]: because they didn't have kids so they used to say, oh, we've put that box in Alex's room. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a little bit weird.

5:31 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't know if that is still the case. [SPEAKER_01]: But in the beginning, definitely, it was like the names had stuck to that specific room. [SPEAKER_01]: So otherwise there's, I mean, there was no, but you do have a sense of don't you agree that it somehow is always, [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like it's yours, like that's 100%.

5:52 [SPEAKER_01]: There is an ownership that doesn't leave you. [SPEAKER_01]: I drive past date if I was. [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I deliberately drive past, that has that we were in when we were really young. [SPEAKER_01]: So not the one I just said, but the one before that. [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think, yeah, I mean, that's what they put that curtain up.

6:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so ugly that they should be allowed to do that. [SPEAKER_00]: To tie this back to aviation, I've heard from quite a few former flight attendants that this is how they feel when they fly after you quit. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you fly the airline where you used to work, you also feel like, [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, like, I should be in the galley right now.

6:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't be sitting in the seat, being the guest, because I'm actually a work, or even when you're flying on standby, when you work there, you know, it's a weird vibe kind of thing. [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because I always wonder about when airlines take take on crew from one airline with their own standard operating procedures, their SOPs, and then they blend them into another.

6:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always funny to hear how they say, wow, you know, we thought we had the same job, [SPEAKER_01]: airline A was doing the bare minimum and airline B is doing 10,000 times more, and yet they think that it's a level playing field and it's just really not and some go far and beyond whether it's to emphasize safety or to personalise the service or whatever, and then there's the other bits where it's like, oh, you know, airline A would never have let us interact with the flight deck in that way, but airline B does it.

7:22 [SPEAKER_01]: As we, you know, it's not a level playing field, it is still very, very, what happens in each house, despite the fact that all share the general circumstances, yeah, they share everything in common in that thankfully we have the safest form of transport, but other than that, everything is very different as you go from house to house as in our line to our line.

7:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a hundred percent. [SPEAKER_00]: So speaking of an airline going to someone else's house. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'd like news this week. [SPEAKER_00]: Delta Airlines has this has been rumored for a while, but it's now confirmed that next year in 2026, in October, Delta will be launching non-stop flights from Atlanta to re-ad.

8:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Making them the first US airline to fly to Saudi. [SPEAKER_00]: And this will be Delta's first flight to the Middle East in a long time with American already flying to Doha, United Flying to Dubai. [SPEAKER_00]: So this marks their return to the Middle East, but obviously flying to Saudi and read specifically is very different from flying to Dubai and Doha.

8:30 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about this? [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about the prospects for this route, the reasons it's starting? [SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's so interesting that we're in a place now where the U.S. carriers have and we've touched on it time and time again, but very firmly now, following the whole company strategy of the fact that if you can't beat them, then join them, and they are joining them and setting up shop there and moving in and flat-sharing and whatnot with these airlines and these nations that they had such a problem with just a few minutes ago in the [SPEAKER_01]: the the the rift as Tim Clark recently referred to it on on an interview he did was was very real and and now they're they've kind of seen the light in that aviation does work better when you when you connect and when you make the world a small place and stop complaining to the respective administration and the presidency and that time about you know unfair blah blah blah and actually level up and I think that's what a lot of them are doing so it's interesting

9:36 [SPEAKER_01]: a few long-haul services. [SPEAKER_01]: You just touched on re-ad. [SPEAKER_01]: We know that they're going to launch to Singapore as well as Manila, but they haven't given any indications to where and or even where from yet. [SPEAKER_01]: So the [SPEAKER_01]: The first initial take I had is that this isn't just because they have, for example, conquered Europe.

9:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It isn't because Europe is super established in their plans and they have to look beyond. [SPEAKER_01]: I would also argue it's because they recognize that these are the areas of growth over the next 10 years. [SPEAKER_01]: It is the Middle East and Asia and these massive [SPEAKER_01]: emerging markets that are incredibly fast-paced in terms of their economic progression, but also within society, that links with the rest of the world and so on.

10:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Reag is a classic example of that as is as many of the Gulf, the GCC, the Gulf cities. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it makes sense that they be a little ambitious. [SPEAKER_01]: and have announced this nonstop flight that will begin in a year. [SPEAKER_01]: So we still have quite a bit of time.

10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you can imagine how Saudi Arabia has developed over the last couple of years, you can imagine how just over the next year that will continue to progress. [SPEAKER_01]: So they'll launch Atlanta React in October next year with an F-15900. [SPEAKER_01]: First ever link nonstop between the US and React operated by a US carrier.

10:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But crucially, [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, they're doing this because, by then, rear air will be up running and hopefully on its way to maturing as an airline. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I can see a vision in the Delta Boardroom where they would be able to rely on rear ad as a partner to connect Delta flights further east without Delta having to operate it themselves and rear air will take them on.

11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: As is a successful model already proven by, [SPEAKER_01]: Doha and Qatar are always in Qatar and Emirates in Dubai with Emirates's respective partners, which it's had a few, but really now is with United there. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a sensible move, I think, in this kind of last piece of the puzzle, you've got Qatar in America, as you said.

11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So with Saudi and Riyadh, with Delta and the sky team rumors, I think it fits. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I just wonder, I would love to do a poll of public opinion of Saudi Arabia in the U.S. in Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: And I would love to see 2015, 2020, 2025 and see if the public perception is actually changed.

12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Because if you go to London, I'm sure you've noticed the ads for Saudi Arabia everywhere. [SPEAKER_00]: There's tours and albums, buses, billboards. [SPEAKER_00]: But I just see those and I'm like, is your average [SPEAKER_00]: going like, you know what? [SPEAKER_00]: I'll trade Dubai for Saudi.

12:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's not yet. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's not yet. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there is it on the way. [SPEAKER_01]: But is the average Brit, for example? [SPEAKER_01]: Considering, oh, we should watch this boxing match in Saudi. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, or are they? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there's this, you know, special game or this exhibition tennis match on this whatever in Saudi or there is this concert in Saudi should we?

12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so I think Saudi Arabia is being very successful in that sense maturing as a destination of its own right. [SPEAKER_01]: It has a long way to go and I would argue that it knows that it's not. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not naive in thinking that it's already established. [SPEAKER_01]: but their numbers don't lie and it is growing year on year on year.

13:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, their aim is quite ambitious. [SPEAKER_01]: They're hoping to get 150 million passengers by 2030. [SPEAKER_01]: This is all part of making re-ad a global aviation hub. [SPEAKER_01]: At that point, I think it starts to get a bit shaky because re-ad is... [SPEAKER_01]: far from any form of hub, not least an aviation hub, but the plans are there.

13:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And this was, for example, the other golf cities not too long ago, and so given how much faster things can happen in this day in age, they know that eventually they will get there. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think for Delta, that's [SPEAKER_01]: financially pragmatic. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you specifically about the incentives and the subsidies that we know Delta is a sucker for because this was the reason and the rationale behind the Delta Atlanta Brisbane route, right, where they knew that the Brisbane had made it incredibly easy.

13:57 [SPEAKER_01]: removing many financial burdens and operating costs in order to secure doubt as business. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's Australia. [SPEAKER_01]: Australia does not operate like Saudi Arabia. [SPEAKER_01]: So you can imagine what doubt it will be benefiting from with React being very open that it will subsidise everything to get an airline, as in operation being almost everything, to get an airline to set up shop in React.

14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, it's so funny because obviously European Airlines, US Airlines love to criticize other countries for supporting their national carriers or providing subsidies. [SPEAKER_00]: We just had a few European Airlines CEOs come out again trying to put pressure, even though they're partnered with Middle Eastern Airlines, they're still trying to put pressure again and saying it's an unfair playing field.

14:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Here we have Delta who for a long time has set the same thing and if you go on any of my YouTube videos about any Middle Eastern airline where I praise one of these airlines, half of the comments are usually, yeah it's just because they're subsidized to tell oil money it's not fair competition.

15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just like, guys, the US carriers are not only among the most subsidized airlines in the world through history being bailed out time and time again, not least during COVID, where they received so much support from the government and barely did anything for the flying public in return.

15:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you look at Delta, they are the hungriest airline for cities that will offer them subsidies to launch a route. [SPEAKER_00]: They'll fly almost anywhere as long as they can do it for free or for cheap at that airport. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just really ironic because of course that is one of the big motivations for Delta launching this route.

15:46 [SPEAKER_00]: They're also hailing in comparison to United over the past. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, especially since COVID. [SPEAKER_00]: United has not only become increasingly premium by U.S. standards, let me emphasize that that is by U.S. standards, but they've built what I would say is one of the most interesting route networks of any airline in the world.

16:08 [SPEAKER_00]: They fly to some [SPEAKER_00]: actually a ton of secondary cities in Europe, especially southern Europe, their launch, they've increased their network out of Tokyo, where they now fly to Mongolia and Taiwan and the Philippines from Tokyo, Nareda, they fly to Greenland, one of the only airlines in the world to fly to Greenland, the only Star Alliance carrier to fly to Greenland, [SPEAKER_00]: So, United has an incredibly attractive network, and what they've realized is that the network is an asset.

16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if flights to Greenland are not raking cash, or flights from Tokyo to Mongolia are raking cash. [SPEAKER_00]: The value to the brand of saying that United can get you from [SPEAKER_00]: is something that shouldn't be underestimated. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so, and this is a threat to Dota, right?

17:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an extra headache to Dota. [SPEAKER_00]: So this is something that drives credit card signups. [SPEAKER_00]: It drives loyalty. [SPEAKER_00]: And as we know, as we've spoken about the past few weeks, US Airlines don't really make money flying anyway. [SPEAKER_00]: They make money from credit cards and their loyalty programs.

17:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So, operating routes that seem aspirational or interesting, [SPEAKER_00]: and having a network that's inspiring can help the bottom line in other ways. [SPEAKER_00]: So now Delta is really trying to play catch up. [SPEAKER_00]: They're so far behind that it's almost laughable at this point.

17:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But this, of course, them finally find to the Middle East is a part of this. [SPEAKER_00]: American and United have already been doing it for a few years, so Delta's the last return, but it's overdue, and that's the same reason we're seeing these Singapore and Manila flights launched, which are also laughably overdue, but Delta has to step it up to some extent.

18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: so that their network looks mildly interesting compared to United. [SPEAKER_00]: That's what this is about, and I think it's so fun to watch. [SPEAKER_01]: Delta does sometimes fly to the Middle East and on the stop, but of course it's a charter basis because it is kind of collecting the U.S. troops or their families and so it goes to the respective, the different U.S. bases were across the Gulf.

18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: a through 50 or through 13 neo around and we're texting each other what is you know if we spot it in the sky we know we're quite familiar aren't we with what should be where in most countries so when we see it we know that it's had a place Delta is also pretty upbeat about I mean earlier in the year they were worried and they removed their guidance because they were worried about how the [SPEAKER_01]: industry challenges, all the geopolitics, the tariffs, everything how it was all going to have a negative impact on consumer confidence.

19:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And Delta were on the record in saying that they saw some of their revenue starts slow down, that they saw corporate revenue slow down. [SPEAKER_01]: There was, you know, it was tariffs, tariffs for much of the year. [SPEAKER_01]: But they have said that things have really picked up Ed Bastion sat down for an interview a couple of weeks [SPEAKER_01]: and said that there was quite a significant improvement in revenue that has led to some more upbeat guidance, expecting that they will expect to have that best fourth quarter in history in terms of profit for the last part of this year.

19:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there was that period especially in the summer where Trump was quite volatile in, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: anyone was going to face a tariff no matter what country or individual or organization or whatever and it was just it was it was chipping away at the rhetoric over consumer confidence there it was definitely a weaker summer for the US carers but specifically it was a weaker summer for the rest of the world going to the US and that rhetoric definitely fueled that but on the whole and I think this is [SPEAKER_01]: I guess a testament to the times that we live in now.

20:21 [SPEAKER_01]: People have short memories, the new cycle moves on so fast. [SPEAKER_01]: We have these massive things that happen and then they just, it's as if it didn't happen 24 hours later. [SPEAKER_01]: And as a result, somehow, as much as that harms different areas of society, it also benefits the likes of airlines that are [SPEAKER_01]: typically very fragile and vulnerable to all of those external factors.

20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: If you've got a bunch of people actually forgetting that there was all this negative rhetoric about the economy and recession fears and all that, actually, they woke up and they feel, you know, they're not full too bad about their own finances, then they've gone ahead and they've booked and they have traveled and it has meant that this last part of the year is shaping up to be one of the best, as Delta just revealed, not only for Delta, but I'm also hearing that shared consensus across much of the industry.

21:07 [SPEAKER_00]: very interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm going to be a little cynical, do you think that there's some intentional effort to make us all short-minded and to have short memories so we don't really dwell on all the crazy things that are happening in the world right now? [SPEAKER_00]: and move on super quickly instead of realizing like, wow, this year there have almost been multiple massive wars around the world and there have actually been a few conflicts and we've had multiple deadly plane crashes that somehow no one is talking about anymore.

21:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, we just move on so, so quickly, well, I feel like there's so many factors, it's horrible, haven't it? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's horrible how fast everyone moves on. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just awful. [SPEAKER_01]: I think this new cycle that we're in now is also awful, because as I said, it's it's four stories that would otherwise have dominated headlines and public conversation for weeks.

22:06 [SPEAKER_01]: 15 years ago, and now just four stories of that afternoon, and then it's a new crazy war of the same magnitude the next day. [SPEAKER_01]: It's exhausting, but but at the same time it is I feel this so, so many factors I could talk about this for a while. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't you think social media has such a role to play here and the fact that we're consuming things in three second bites and TikTok and the swiping and it's all fueled this [SPEAKER_01]: this short attention span, fast-paced, crazy, fast-paced society that means that, yeah, the impacts are that people forget things, we're not, we're not.

22:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been 20, 20, 16 or 2015. [SPEAKER_01]: I think 2017 was one of the safest years for aviation on record. [SPEAKER_01]: I think we got through the whole year without one fatal commercial airline accident. [SPEAKER_01]: It was either 2017 or 2016 or maybe we were now in 2017. [SPEAKER_01]: I can double check that anyway.

23:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But now, as you say, you were nice to both call the phone earlier this week. [SPEAKER_01]: And we were thinking, how is it the industry? [SPEAKER_01]: Hasn't usually we would hear more from the industry about [SPEAKER_01]: the very big, awful aviation tragedies that we had this year. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all of this does it on, for this year, even started with the Korea incident, the Ecosah went into the war, you know?

23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That was like on the new year just before. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, then you had the American Airlines aircraft in the river, in the nation's capital, and everyone died. [SPEAKER_01]: And within a month and it's again, [SPEAKER_01]: hasn't been mentioned, you and I go to conferences, we've been at seminars, we've been everything, doesn't get a date, I don't know, it's weird now, I also blame that that side course, you said, air India, such a tragedy, you know, involving a 787 dream line and aircraft in service everywhere, and again, okay, that did go everywhere in terms of headline news, it did last longer than a day, it lasted definitely a few days.

24:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it makes me feel uneasy just the way that [SPEAKER_01]: Everything moves on so fast now because as I said, we're just in this endless new cycle for massive stories a day. [SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen the speaking of TikTok? [SPEAKER_00]: Low? [SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen Japan Airlines?

24:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe on Instagram or something pop up? [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: What are they? [SPEAKER_00]: Japan Airlines is killing it on social media at the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: I think they have some new staff member or something that's managing this. [SPEAKER_00]: It is so cute, so fun, makes me love Japan Airlines.

24:51 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the very background, actually? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it Japan Airlines Global or Japan? [SPEAKER_00]: So, I'll send it all out. [SPEAKER_00]: I see Japan Airlines official is their TikTok. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, I'm seeing these videos now. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's one. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll just post you 20 minutes to go.

25:07 [SPEAKER_00]: They're just so cute and Japanese and funny. [SPEAKER_00]: It's great. [SPEAKER_00]: I highly recommend everyone check it out. [SPEAKER_00]: If you want some airline entertainment. [SPEAKER_00]: I like that. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to quickly stick with the U.S. just to touch on what's happening with Mexico.

25:23 [SPEAKER_01]: A couple of listeners writing about this as well. [SPEAKER_01]: The U.S. has revoked the approval for Mexican carriers, so specifically the approval of 13 [SPEAKER_01]: They've canceled all flights from Mexico City's new airport to the US. [SPEAKER_01]: So any US routes, citing violations of the US Mexico Air Transport agreement.

25:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, this is quite political right. [SPEAKER_01]: The US side are saying that Mexico has allegedly withdrawn slots from US carriers and forced cargo handlers out of the airport's creating an unfair advantage to their home carriers. [SPEAKER_01]: The Mexican side of things is a little more [SPEAKER_01]: They're a bit quieter in the public argument that's playing out.

26:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But they say that the slot cards and cargo moves are just part of airport capacity, and infrastructure changes as they shift to the new airport, the Philippe Angelis, which is, they say, part of their next chapter of growth. [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if this is legitimate or not, in that are we just seeing a primarily, [SPEAKER_01]: political story play out as part of the wider dispute the part of the wider issues that the US has with Mexico across the political spectrum or is this is this Mexico kind of being able to cleverly use the move to champion and to prioritize its own home carers which by the way, [SPEAKER_01]: every country does.

27:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always funny when anyone singles out another player and says, but you are partying your alliance. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's literally the mandate for most countries aviation agendas. [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean you're 100% right and it's funny here because is the U.S. not trying to prioritize their own airlines in this situation as well.

27:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're just trying to protect you know what's interesting to you. [SPEAKER_00]: There's this whole discussion with Mexico City's new airport because no one really wants to fly there. [SPEAKER_00]: It's way out of the city and it's causing issues because [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we keep saying this time and seeing this time and time again.

27:40 [SPEAKER_00]: The same will happen now with Mumbai's new airport that's opening, which airline voluntarily wants to fly to an airport that's like an extra hour outside of the city compared to the existing airport. [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, no airlines do, so there have to be some sort of systems in place to force airlines to some extent to move to the new airport if you want airlines to start using it.

28:04 [SPEAKER_00]: otherwise no one's gonna do it so it's uh it's a tough balance I don't know you know if I was a government how I would navigate that perhaps moving over I like that you said that if you were a government rather than if you worked in government but if you go south literally become where the government [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about this?

28:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's definitely an issue. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's got to be not only incentive, as you said, but you've got to also be able to demonstrate that. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you know, we're all going, so let's hold hands now and make them move. [SPEAKER_01]: Because the moment you get some reluctance, say, actually the infrastructure is not ready there.

28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's far. [SPEAKER_01]: our passengers don't want to fly there. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a way from x, y, or z. [SPEAKER_01]: And you have some that stay put. [SPEAKER_01]: Then you're in, you know, you're in quite an issue there. [SPEAKER_01]: There is going to be a day, as you said, when when Dubai airport as we know it closes and it's and everything is going to shift to Almaktoom.

29:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's an all or nothing. [SPEAKER_01]: scenario rather than a split operation kind of thing. [SPEAKER_01]: But I could also argue that a split could work there as well because it's so small and everything's so close together in the grand scheme of things. [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the examples of who have been able to do it quite successfully, the smooth transition to the new Beijing airport.

29:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The Beijing-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-Dang-D [SPEAKER_01]: justifiably common sense move to what has quickly just very naturally become the updated bashing hub and I think that's that's a decent example of that and then you have to remember like what's happening in sorry they've just popped into my head and I don't mean [SPEAKER_01]: to come for them at all in this.

30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But what is happening with Kuwait with the new apple there? [SPEAKER_01]: It's been years and we hear nothing. [SPEAKER_00]: You, I mean, you, the only thing anyone has heard from Kuwait's aviation industry in years is my videos from Kuwait airport. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there was a case that someone is not to speak.

30:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I did go viral across the airport because [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, great video, you were just, actually, it's quite a shame, you had a bad flight, didn't you? [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was a bad flight because you were made to feel, you were told that you couldn't film, but you were not filming anyone.

30:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And the cliche argument that people worry about when someone winds the other person up and says, you know, this guy's really famous, so he's going to make it difficult for you. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not like that because you do have, I mean, unlike some others, you are very, very, [SPEAKER_01]: by the book when it comes to ensuring that you respect privacy laws, you don't film anyone without that consent, you don't film the public, so.

31:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm never out to get anyone, but yeah, what is going on in quite the difference there, what, you know, the blessing that some airports have in Kuwait, also Abu Dhabi, [SPEAKER_00]: is imagine being able to build an entirely new terminal and new runways on the same grounds as your own report.

31:31 [SPEAKER_00]: What an amazing thing that you move all your operations by driving one kilometer across one runway to the new building. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something, you know, in Abu Dhabi, I've seen that Etihad, dumb, dumb, dumb, has started having to use a few buscates at some times a day, sometimes a day, which wasn't the case when they opened the new terminal.

31:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm starting to think like, okay, so when are we forcing, [SPEAKER_00]: Arabia and the low-cost airlines to move back into the old terminals so that the full-service airlines can maintain or as premium and experience as possible in the existing terminal because there is the terminal infrastructure there for low-cost airlines to, you know, reduce the burden a little bit so there it's easy but it will not be easy [SPEAKER_01]: unburdened by what has been.

32:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: This quote. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a quote. [SPEAKER_01]: Apple, I mean, they just take, it's just a nightmare in terms of construction and they take forever. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the time that these airports actually want to launch, just imagine, some of these airlines don't exist anymore when they do exist, the last thing they want to do is move if there's no clear incentives to why.

32:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to recap, remember that Berlin, construction, formally began in 2006. [SPEAKER_01]: thinking that it would open in 2011. [SPEAKER_01]: Instead it opened 14 years after construction in October 2020 and still had an absolute shit show of breakdowns and issues and you know it was just the most ironic [SPEAKER_01]: German efficiency story ever, they absolutely failed to just open an airport, which some nations like Singapore, for example, were able to do ahead of schedule in some scenarios, and the same is true.

33:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, although it's not true, I mean, Al-Makutune, which we just spoke about, formally to Byboard Central, that was supposed to be [SPEAKER_01]: fully operational by 2017 and what's up and they had various different periods where they were pausing constructions on. [SPEAKER_01]: Terminal 5 at Heathrow, the concept first emerged the initial planning in the 1980s.

33:51 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I had not yet grace the earth. [SPEAKER_01]: The 1980s, okay, it opened [SPEAKER_01]: 20 years later, in March 2008, with a big baggage fiasco crisis, if you remember, the whole time was just broke down because it couldn't handle bags. [SPEAKER_01]: 20 years, it's just a headache for most nations and when Apple's already put it off, [SPEAKER_01]: even slightly as planned.

34:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I think they deserve real recognition and applause because the opposite is true in just almost every other market. [SPEAKER_00]: Very true. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that Hamad Airport has actually done remarkably well with their extensions. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: They've opened on crime, things have been seen.

34:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in terms of the expansion, the Altchode, which is now like the main part of the [SPEAKER_01]: That all opened a head of schedule before World Cup. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, show the an Apple that opened anything ahead of schedule. [SPEAKER_00]: I know, but was wasn't that such a wild experience because I remember flying through like a month before the World Cup.

35:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, this thing doesn't even have a roof yet. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, how are they going to get this done? [SPEAKER_00]: And then as you say, [SPEAKER_00]: It just worked out and it opened on time, but yeah, you do remember that like until very like the very last second I was like What is going on here?

35:21 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not but a lot of the a lot of the build up to the world cup was like that to be honest where there are so many things where we were I don't know you just witnessed anything and say [SPEAKER_01]: But how is that? [SPEAKER_01]: How could that possibly be done in three weeks when the whole world come for the world cup?

35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can be sure that it was, it was, uh, I mean, there was a lot of marks for us. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was, it was, they could see the go inside for so long. [SPEAKER_01]: That it was at all hands on deck. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you wanted to bring up something from your home market.

35:49 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Scandinavian side of you. [SPEAKER_01]: What did you want to tell me about? [SPEAKER_01]: All I get is a text message from you saying, Alex, we are Scandinavia. [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to briefly discuss this new ad from SES, which I, you guys 100% have not seen it because it has 7,000 views on YouTube, even though they paid literally an a-list Scandinavian actor to be part of it, apparently they're not paying to spread the video, but it it features this [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, famous actor, it's 45 minutes long, and basically the message of the ad is supposed to be Scandinavians are very discerning and difficult customers, and we know how to serve even the most discerning people.

36:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, [SPEAKER_00]: This ad is so questionable in so many ways, but the part where it gets interesting for the podcast is around 35 seconds in. [SPEAKER_00]: The famous actor walks past the line with his priority boarding, tries to scan his boarding pass and it goes beep beep, it won't let him through.

37:00 [SPEAKER_00]: and then a family comes along and they go over own the board and kids and families now so then you see this died carrying his kid up the stairs of the savory 50 and he says I don't know the exact line but it's something like and that's why we always fly SAS. [SPEAKER_00]: And that makes me think, did they listen to your rant back in the beginning of this season about kids getting priority boarding and say, we are going to prove that that's actually very important to troubles.

37:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think it's questionable and laughable that the airline is. [SPEAKER_01]: somehow suggesting that the fact that they offer families to board first is so revolutionary, it is worthy of a TV advertisement. [SPEAKER_01]: This is basic stuff, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: This is low cost airlines were doing this way back when it's just funny.

38:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think SAS is a little lost, do you know? [SPEAKER_00]: oh my gosh they are not a little they are extremely lost and in fact we need to do an if we ran SES soon because they like what are they doing what is their branding what is their marketing it's all just I mean I think it's gotten slightly better since Air France KLM took a stake but we need to go into SES and help them out like if if they would let us we could save SES [SPEAKER_01]: do we want to?

38:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a year or two. [SPEAKER_00]: We just want Finair to reset up their hub and stall calls. [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, Finair have been through it. [SPEAKER_01]: Finair are returning aircraft because they washed their seats with it in correct. [SPEAKER_01]: It's some, I mean, don't let anyone ever tell you aviation is not complex.

38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Finair is returning aircraft. [SPEAKER_01]: Because of a mistake, they were turning the air to 21s back to the leasing companies. [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, but they're getting them back. [SPEAKER_00]: They're just being cleaned properly. [SPEAKER_00]: They're like within a few weeks, they will have all their E321s again.

39:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you worry. [SPEAKER_00]: I've been very concerned about this. [SPEAKER_01]: You have. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And because this is such a specific story, [SPEAKER_01]: There we go, yeah, sorry, sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: They've returned them to the family room. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry, my mistake, yeah.

39:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So they're replacing 1,700 seat covers in 8,821 aircraft. [SPEAKER_01]: Six of which will be returned back to service, sorry, within a week. [SPEAKER_01]: Finair have suspended, had previously suspended all operations of these aircraft on the 13th of October. [SPEAKER_01]: because they were informed that the original sea covers, that the washing, that they had the impact of washing on the fire protection had not been verified and therefore it was no longer certified and blah, blah, blah.

40:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just that little, you know, there's little nuggets of aviation that people don't realize. [SPEAKER_01]: And the same was true for global, who apparently, you know, another week has gone by, where it's global, it wants you to know it to be seen. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they're ever coming back, but they, they, [SPEAKER_01]: had an aircraft with seats that were also not certified and when you so a lot of people remind me that certification is is the single most significant headache for any airline in so many different areas of trying to run an airline but at the same time it does play into the fact that it's why our travel is so safe and why we have the safest form of transport so yeah

40:52 [SPEAKER_01]: National news story all because the covers had not been washed in accordance with the guidance from the original seat manufacturer and therefore it could have played a, it could have worsened and unlikely an unfortunate event like a fire. [SPEAKER_01]: And so they had to take their craft out of service and they cancelled loads of flights that didn't convince passengers.

41:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They're everything. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole thing. [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: So let's round out by jumping into a little bit of Q&A show. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it. [SPEAKER_00]: All right, let's stay on the topic of SDS. [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to answer this question quickly from Rob Bin, who I'm so sorry, Robin, apparently used to send to question a march, which we haven't called it until yet.

41:38 [SPEAKER_00]: But his question now is, with SDS being, or with Eurobonus, so SDS low to program, potentially being merged into flying blue, if everyone's Caleb, I'm get a bigger stake. [SPEAKER_00]: do I think we should expect the devaluation of S.S. Eurobona's points? [SPEAKER_00]: And do we think that that's something to be concerned about long story short?

42:01 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think the best thing they could happen to S.S.S. [SPEAKER_00]: Eurobona is being brought into flying blue because flying blue is so vastly superior to us. [SPEAKER_00]: it has access to so many more superior airlines definitely good news overall although SES reductions might not be as good but every other airline will be better um let's see who else do we have um I have a question here from Vishal [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, this is fun.

42:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, this is such an interesting question. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, read it for God's sake. [SPEAKER_00]: I know. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, have you seen the movie The Terminal with Tom Hanks? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course. [SPEAKER_00]: Good, good, good.

42:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So he asks. [SPEAKER_00]: Carcosa, which airport would you choose if you had to spend a year inside it like Tom Hanks in the movie The Terminal? [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's let's go through first the ones that we definitely would not or that list to go that list is literally no no Let's go through the let's go through the ones that we think We would not but maybe we will think we would want to how about that?

43:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So like the ones that are the top of that game, but we would not okay. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll start not singing for us Not singing a person's more no way not not since we [SPEAKER_01]: Realized everything earlier this year. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you if you have to be air-side then Yeah, yeah, maybe not yeah, and the terminal he was air-side so no it can't be Singapore because we'll just be Me, you and Coppate that's it.

43:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is we were in terminal one, but let's yeah, you okay? [SPEAKER_00]: You're saying Singapore I would definitely say I'm saying Singapore. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not Singapore. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying not Seoul in Chon [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, so not any airport in your heart. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow, you've gone for the close-up.

43:54 [SPEAKER_00]: One exception, one exception. [SPEAKER_00]: No, I might not. [SPEAKER_00]: God. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe back to, you know, what I love, but Helsinki airport is really freaking cozy and they have a lot of nice cafes, and it feels just like home to me. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

44:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We get it. [SPEAKER_00]: That's my European choice. [SPEAKER_00]: What about you if you had to choose one in Europe? [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, one in Europe and then one in Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: One in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: Zurich.

44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: You just saw a clip for he. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: chocolate, red clet, they've got bedrooms with great views of the in the lounge with great views of the the runway There's a terrace for the warmer days fresh air. [SPEAKER_01]: There is a nice piano bar They've got lint chocolate stores and other chocolate stores everywhere and you know I love chocolate So yeah, I'd say in Europe Zurich.

44:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what about rest of the world? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you said not Singapore, but the thing is, turn on three, and you could go between terminal four as well by bus, but terminal three specifically, like there's so many things you could do, they have a movie theater, they have their butterfly garden, they have a pool, they have so many things, airside that you couldn't really get at other airports, [SPEAKER_00]: the other option for one reason and one reason alone.

45:28 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to, what am I going to say, Doha? [SPEAKER_00]: Because of Evergreen. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Because of Evergreen, organics, the restaurant in the terminal. [SPEAKER_00]: I think I could, you know, be nicely sustained there. [SPEAKER_00]: And there is also a problem.

45:43 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I was nervous. [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely choose Doha because you would be able to have the best routine ever. [SPEAKER_01]: great food, everything from high to low, fast food to plant-based, everything, so you can mix it all out. [SPEAKER_01]: Also, the greenery, so you could genuinely feel like you were outside even though you were not, which is the reason why I'd originally chosen Zurich for Europe.

46:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So surrounding yourself by the garden, great shopping, but then when you're bored of shopping, you could go and swim because there's an amazing pool, there's a golf simulator, there [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wonder if we should do something where we spend like a week and transit in place. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

46:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That would be such a cool show. [SPEAKER_01]: The series actually. [SPEAKER_01]: Like we literally live in the airport for a week. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_01]: We kind of have to do that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's it, that because I think you could have an excellent routine and then we just reflect on because the interesting thing is there would be there would be aspects that we wouldn't know about now, but only when you do it would you then come to realize, ah, this is a problem like, for example, I don't know, maybe we would realise that we could hear the announcements while we're trying to sleep.

47:00 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, yeah, or maybe there are lights that just don't turn off because of the, the fact that you're still within an Apple, or maybe the, the, [SPEAKER_01]: the business or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: I think we should try. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the funny part is that obviously when I'm suggesting that I'm thinking of somewhere like beautiful how mad where we could have the best routine ever, but it would be funny if we tried to live.

47:22 [SPEAKER_01]: In another report as well, yeah, in a bad April and then you know, is the first one there had to be an incentive to stay because if there wasn't I'd be I'd be out there, you know So exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think to something for us to consider Final question final question here from Rob Says he loves the podcast.

47:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to share an experience on a BA fly back from Polar Palermo [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he was hit in 27A, one of the emergency exit rows facing the cabin crew jump seat that is normally just occupied for takeoff and landing. [SPEAKER_00]: Sure they have to take off the crew got up as usual, but this time two plain cloaked non-reve passengers using staff travel benefits moved forward from their galley jump seats into the jump seats opposite him.

48:09 [SPEAKER_00]: The non-revered opposite me then decided to relax and sprawl out taking over all the leg space between us. [SPEAKER_00]: Now that's what I've heard. [SPEAKER_00]: To be an extra legroom seat to stretch out for an early evening flight ended up turning into roughly three hours of awkward foot-sees and me squeezing my legs and knees as close to my seat as possible to avoid touching legs.

48:30 [SPEAKER_00]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: This? [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's inappropriate. [SPEAKER_01]: I would have had a quiet word with the CSD and said, look, I am a fair paying passenger. [SPEAKER_01]: And all airlines know this, right? [SPEAKER_01]: The fair paying passenger, even if you've paid the lowest economy fair ever, you still take priority over anyone travelling non-refs, so anyone travelling on staff travel or friends or family on staff travel, especially if they're on a jump seat.

48:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would have had a quiet word for you with the CSD. [SPEAKER_01]: and if said, look, I booked and paid for the extra legroom seat for it and now there is this staff member or family friend of staff who's taking up all the legroom that I could maybe have a quite wide failing that. [SPEAKER_01]: because obviously you haven't I don't think you have done that and now obviously I'm assuming just not still on board it's like I would write into BA BA quite understanding of these kind of things and I think you can get sent a decent amount of avios for that.

49:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah actually that's a good point and if you complain on board you can get avios instantly from the crew which is pretty awesome as well. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you have a British Airways executive company, yes it's not if you have a partner or [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know what's funny about this is when I had this experience a few weeks ago where I needed an in-flight compensation from the crew They she literally handed me the phone.

49:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I went how many avios do you want? [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like lied all the way It wasn't even a slide. [SPEAKER_00]: It was just a box where you input a number and I was like, oh my god, what is appropriate here? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it actually went too low. [SPEAKER_00]: I did some research afterwards, but [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, that could have been a very fun moment if I had known what I was doing.

50:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: All right. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks for thanks for a good talk today. [SPEAKER_00]: We will catch you next week. [SPEAKER_00]: Next Wednesday has always on air wherever you catch your podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: So until then, see you later. [SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.