Electric Passenger Flight Is FINALLY Here! (Heart Aerospace ES-30)

0:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and welcome back to on air everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: How are you doing Alex? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh good, it's while I mean it's busy out there isn't it? [SPEAKER_02]: It is busy out there because anyone who has been on an aircraft anywhere will be able to tell you just how packed [SPEAKER_02]: the cues that also and I really really don't enjoy traveling like the idea of having to be in an airport in like early August surrounded by everyone.

0:35 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm managing. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, okay, I'm okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you'll survive. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of families. [SPEAKER_01]: You really notice the [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's a lot of, you know, you're in the wrong queue and like, no, yeah, you don't have star lines code.

0:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you until very, do you have star lines code? [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't have star lines code. [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, you're on your own queue with the people. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the business I was in here. [SPEAKER_02]: I was in the business class queue, which is with star lines code.

1:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: And also, for example, the other day, [SPEAKER_02]: the other day I was flying economy and on a two-hour flight and I had no status on the carrier whatsoever, absolutely fine, all good reserved my windows seat, lovely, and I kept looking at everyone trying to get into the premium queue.

1:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the entitlement is terrible. [SPEAKER_02]: Stick to the correct queue. [SPEAKER_02]: Look at me. [SPEAKER_02]: I have premium status everywhere, thankfully. [SPEAKER_02]: And on the occasion that I was flying in hell on there, I've no status with that I was flying economy with the last thing I would do is try and say, well, do you know what?

1:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I fly a lot, I'm just gonna put myself in the wrong queue. [SPEAKER_02]: No, respect it and everything runs smoother. [SPEAKER_02]: I think we literally left 20 minutes late for people just being in the wrong place. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah, we need to talk just a little rant about people with status because it is truly, I don't know what airlines have done to make people so entitled when they have, it's always when they have status, not like business class passengers, but for example, I was in, I was sitting in the Qatar lounge in Bangkok last week and then I hear yelling from the entrance to someone's [SPEAKER_02]: I'm one world emerald.

2:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I am entitled to access any one world lounge. [SPEAKER_01]: And these poor, like, Thai women are like, sir, Katara's a policy we don't allow elite members to access lounges if they're an all-flying business. [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, that's BS, I'm going in here. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was just like, they were going back and forth, and he wasn't listening, and I'm just like, sir.

2:55 [SPEAKER_01]: chill. [SPEAKER_01]: This is also an airport with loads of good restaurants and fun spots to be, you know, have to be in this lounge just to get some free hours of sleep. [SPEAKER_02]: It's that, isn't it? [SPEAKER_02]: They're at, you know, tensions are high. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of people everywhere.

3:08 [SPEAKER_02]: People have been through long immigration cues. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just like having to ensure that, you know, people chill. [SPEAKER_02]: As you said, but look, this is the same every summer. [SPEAKER_02]: It's this massive load of travel. [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of Australians and Americans everywhere.

3:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I was reading, I was not reading on speaking to one of my cousins, Australia and she was saying it's funny because 10 years ago the conversation between Aussies would be oh are you having the Euro summer this year and it was oh no we had one last year so we'll go again next year or in a couple of years.

3:42 [SPEAKER_02]: and now it's like become the expectation that it has to be a quote Euro summer and it has to be every year even for those that live as far flung as down under and now obviously is extremely incredibly expensive it's time consuming because the travel it's yeah it's just become this thing especially amongst the young [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know that you do Euro summer right because you have reasons to, but I just tend to avoid Europe in the summer, because I'm like, it's too crowded, it's too expensive.

4:15 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll stay away until we can visit the people we know at other times a year. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there are many places that are nice in the summer. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't just have to go to Paris and Rome. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's true. [SPEAKER_02]: And as you say, I would spend almost all of summer in Europe, but it would not be in places that are packed because the less we roll there are so many places beyond what you see or what you're conditioned into seeing on social media.

4:43 [SPEAKER_02]: actually travel, explore, find somewhere that doesn't have a beach, branded with a French fashion design house, it might realize that you're discovering authenticity rather than 150 your avocado toast. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I always find a funny in New York where I am right now how literally if you walk one block further out toward the rivers like let's say on 6th or 7th Avenue and then you walk yeah one block further suddenly there's not a tourist in sight and it's like it's in London too.

5:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what? [SPEAKER_02]: In Rome, okay? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not even going to say the street name for fear that I'll publicise it, okay? [SPEAKER_02]: But there is the most beautiful quaint street that is steps away from the Spanish steps. [SPEAKER_02]: It is deserted because TikTok don't know about it.

5:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, you stand there and you just can't quite believe the silence knowing that 20 steps away are [SPEAKER_02]: Crowds all swarming around one thing and it's like you're so right. [SPEAKER_02]: This is everywhere This is so so common. [SPEAKER_02]: So basically basically guys put your phone down put the books down and actually go for a wander and You know, let's do anyway.

6:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's music work [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk a little bit about what I've been doing because I'm in New York for a special reason, and we've discussed this a little bit, but I think there's a law for you to learn just how cool this is. [SPEAKER_01]: I was invited by an aviation startup called Heart Aerospace.

6:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that the startup landscape in aircraft manufacturing and all that has changed so much just in the past decade. [SPEAKER_01]: And this company was basically started seven years ago and they already have an aircraft that is going to take its first flight cleared to do so this way.

6:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The CEO [SPEAKER_01]: He, he's the first person I've ever heard, say this, at least in many, many decades, to say we all should be flying much more than we do. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't hear people saying that these days. [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's quite a statement. [SPEAKER_01]: Because of environmental concerns, because of the cost.

7:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But now, they're developing a way that cuts emissions so drastically. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, this is a 30-seat aircraft. [SPEAKER_01]: They're first aircraft. [SPEAKER_01]: They're hoping to go larger. [SPEAKER_01]: But already a 30-seater, being able to fly significant distances and have 40-50% less emissions, and fly short missions, and have no emissions at all, basically.

7:38 [SPEAKER_01]: because you can use renewable energy to charge the aircraft, obviously. [SPEAKER_01]: That is just, it's such a game changer to think about in 10, 20 years. [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that maybe we don't have to fly less, like we've all been thinking about the thinking this whole time. [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, we can be flying more because we're at this pivot point going from fossil fuels, still powering aircraft, which when you think about it, [SPEAKER_01]: seems quite old fashioned at this point when cars are fully electric to being in a new era of airliners.

8:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Well that's, you know, the whole idea and the rhetoric of us being able to fly more because the industry is at this pivotal moment and we'll be changing. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really looking forward to hear this. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's jump into this now, Dan. [SPEAKER_02]: This is when you spoke to the CEO and as [SPEAKER_01]: On this first student, welcome to on-air.

8:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Dean. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: We are here with your amazing demonstrator aircraft, I guess that's what we call it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: For what is going to be the ES30? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to give us a basic rundown of what this is, first of all?

8:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll talk about why it's so exciting. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so we're about to fly the world's first electric airliner. [SPEAKER_00]: So what we have behind us here is the largest electric aircraft ever to be built. [SPEAKER_00]: It's got over 106 foot wingspan, which is 32 meters at waste about 25,000 pounds, which is 12,000 kilos maybe.

9:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, yeah, but it's, and also the first airliner to embark on this new era of aviation, which is the electric era. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So we, air aircraft started with piston engines that we went into the jet age, which is what we're all familiar with now, where we connect to the world.

9:33 [SPEAKER_00]: and now we're entering into new age and the electric era is going to be one of a abundant air travel. [SPEAKER_00]: So the most exciting thing about this aircraft is that the first flight is going to be about five dollars worth of electricity. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you told when you said that before it blew my mind.

9:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how long will that fly be of rock cement? [SPEAKER_00]: So the mission, so it starts with, you know, taxing out and going up, and taxing can actually be very, very, like you can spend 10% of your fuel for a longer flight only in the taxi. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's about 27 minutes, the mission and a part of that, I think around 10, 15 minutes going to be up in the air, which is also the takeoff part of it, which is also $5.

10:12 [SPEAKER_00]: for $5, so you add that, you know, when we're going to do commercial flights, it's going to be a little bit more, but still, this playing carry is 30 passengers. [SPEAKER_01]: That is, that is amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, how much in comparison, turbo prop. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is orders of magnitude less, right?

10:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And overall, it's going to be 4050% cheaper to fly. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we think this is so exciting. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, we'll start out being 4050% cheaper to fly. [SPEAKER_00]: And then we see new technologies coming forward, that's going to make it even cheaper. [SPEAKER_00]: So the mission of this company is to lower the cost of air travel.

10:51 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we get up every morning is how do we find a way [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, while we're doing this, we're also creating something that has a remissions, so it's really a win-win. [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny how, so we're both Swedish. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I am. [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like in Sweden, the discussion around sustainability is always like, [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it feels like it's like you have to force it through regulation or through this and that, whereas what you're showing is the real incentive as we always see is cost.

11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: When the cost of solar panels becomes cheaper than conventional electricity, that's what people go for. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: So the same thing here, this is what will drive people to renewable flight because it's also cheaper to operate. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's historically why, you know, you know, we used to, I mean, when the light bulb was invented, it was the electrification of light, now we're talking about the electrification of flight, right, but we used to use carousine for alarms and then we switched to electricity and that was not because of [SPEAKER_00]: That was not because of sustainability at that time in the 1800s, it was about reducing costs.

12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're doing exactly the same thing. [SPEAKER_00]: So electrification has this thing that is the commoditized energy source. [SPEAKER_00]: It's the source that everything uses and now even our cars and our road vehicles. [SPEAKER_00]: Once we can get our airborne vehicles on that same system, it just creates these massive [SPEAKER_00]: Air travel has historically been kind of playing its own game towards the side, you know, developing its own technology, but an electric plane is much more like an electric car or an electric bus than a regular plane is like a regular bus, and most importantly that shows in the ticket price.

12:43 [SPEAKER_01]: If we think about, for example, the range, the electric range on this, do you want to talk about that and then how you're creating a hybrid model to allow it to go a bit further? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so for the production aircraft, the electric range is going to be around 125 miles, and that's actually [SPEAKER_00]: If you think about it physically, we could fly twice that on batteries, but we need to keep some batteries and we need to sort of cycle, we need to keep something for our serves.

13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But then we also have a hybrid range extender. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is super important because one in every thousand flights gets stivered into another airport. [SPEAKER_00]: So you need to carry a lot of energy to stay in the air for like an extra 45 minutes and then another hundred-autical miles.

13:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So a hybrid system is actually the best way to get the electric value proposition. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a big challenge actually getting it to work in a way that is the doesn't hurt your value proposition. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're doing a lot of good work on that as well. [SPEAKER_01]: do you want to talk about how that feeds into the engines?

13:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we have a four propeller system. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's actually a combination for our next aircraft. [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a combination of a turbo prop engine and electric motors that are a little bit bigger. [SPEAKER_00]: And those things are combined.

13:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've done actually over the last year, we've done a lot of work on this and we'll have more exciting things to share about how the system's going to work in the future. [SPEAKER_01]: What will be the theoretical maximum range when you combine everything? [SPEAKER_00]: So it's actually like when you have the hybrid system, it's determined of the size of your fuel tanks, right?

14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're actually sizing them to be around like the max range is going to be around 500 miles with the size of the fuel tanks because people don't really want to sit on a small aircraft like this for four hours or something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's that's not the mission. [SPEAKER_00]: So even if you look at our you know ATRs, it's that are they generally are topped out there.

14:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you on behalf of passengers. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sure it likes our whereas it's good. [SPEAKER_00]: But it's important, obviously, we talk about this new era of aviation and hybrid systems. [SPEAKER_00]: And this, I think, is the starting point. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing about the technology of electrification that sort of, the physics allows us to scale.

14:57 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we need to go bigger. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, and then the big thing is the narrow body market. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, when you build narrow bodies, you want them to be fly longer distances, so then you're going to be relying more heavily on the hybrid system. [SPEAKER_00]: But this allows us to develop it, to hone our skills, to bring an airline, what's called a part 25 airline or into certification, create a massive market, serve the 5,000 airports that are here in the US that are being underserved, meet a lot of climate obligations, and also create the technology platform for this to scale to bigger and bigger planes.

15:32 [SPEAKER_01]: when you think about the dreams sort of roots that this aircraft can unlock for you personally. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, think about. [SPEAKER_00]: So, I live in Santa Monica and we just are a partner, J.S.X. [SPEAKER_00]: actually just opened flights from an airport that's 10 minutes from where I am in Santa Monica Airport and they're flying to places like Las Vegas and eventually also to like, [SPEAKER_00]: Santa Barbara and San Francisco and it's so convenient, it's the dream, you know, instead of going to LAX, it takes you 45 minutes and then you have to be there two hours before you can leave ten minutes, you know, take your ten minutes and then you JSX tells you come to come 20 minutes before departure, right?

16:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So it becomes it's not this hassle to get to the airport. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like integrated into our society and also, you know, living in Santa Monica [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, a lot of people, you know, have feelings about the noise about the local pollution. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a lot of that goes away, you know, the pollution goes away and noise becomes much less.

16:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think we can imagine a future of everyday air travel. [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, where, where airports are just connected integrated into our societies and not something that's far out, you know, outside of the cities and it, you sort of, takes you the day just to, to the logistics around it.

16:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So, [SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah, so that's why we're not focusing too much about how fast the plane goes, so we're like, how can we reduce door to door times? [SPEAKER_01]: When I think about Sweden, I mean, this is also such a perfect aircraft for countries like Sweden that are, I guess, a bit spread out.

17:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think about how, for example, from Gothenburg to Copenhagen or Osla, it can be quite a pain to get between those places, or there's [SPEAKER_01]: So having, you know, also a cheaper way to fly and a more sustainable way to do it to get to those places is really a game changer for any secondary city really right.

17:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, this has been the dream of aviation for so long, you know, like when Henry Ford started building cars, he was like, hum, there's airplanes, and he built a Ford Trimotor, which was like, cars is just a stepping stone to planes, obviously it's better to be in the air than on the ground, but it never really materialized.

17:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the vision that that was had, you know, 50, 75 years ago, that's why we have 5,000 airpers in the U.S. [SPEAKER_00]: But right now we just have this monoculture of like narrow bodies, which is great, it's an amazing thing. [SPEAKER_00]: It's the best way of getting around for that mission, but it's still something people only use once a year.

18:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think of that kind of as a niche product. [SPEAKER_01]: And the US is stuck in this sort of cycle where the the smallest aircraft have got larger and larger. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Now many [SPEAKER_00]: And that's sort of cannibalizing, so, you know, one of the things that this also does is it's a hub feeder.

18:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So it means that so for instance, if you're living in Santa Barbara or in, uh, I'm using a LA example now, but if you're living in Palm Springs or something like that, and you want to go to LA, you can just get on a plane there in Palm Springs since that, and you fly over to, and you don't have to go through to USA and LA, you don't have to bring a rental car, you don't have to figure out where parking is, [SPEAKER_00]: it just becomes much more convenient.

18:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And for the airlines, they're making the money on the flight over, like on our flight, but they're also filling up, you know, this is like feeding the tributaries that are feeding the rivers, feeding the bathing. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's becomes a really important way for airlines to compete also on their mainline operations.

19:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That's exciting. [SPEAKER_01]: I was also saying earlier how, I think it's so cool how in seven years you basically go on from idea to death. [SPEAKER_00]: So you started the channel I started. [SPEAKER_00]: I started this company around the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's crazy What is the Ideal timeline from here on app you know from today on yeah, so within the next two years We're gonna be building a pre-production version of this aircraft [SPEAKER_00]: and it's going to be essentially very similar, so 90% similar to the aircraft that we're going to be certified.

19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And in parallel, we're starting the certification pathway already now in the next few months. [SPEAKER_00]: And we won't be playing to be rating two years. [SPEAKER_00]: So for the LA Olympics, is our mental image. [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's going to be another three, so years, sort of when you start at the part 25 certification campaign to take five years.

20:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's going to be around 2031 when you can actually, when we're going to be selling these across the world and most people can fly it. [SPEAKER_00]: There's already things happening in the U.S. where something called EAM. [SPEAKER_00]: EIPP where there's limited commercial service of electric planes, mostly for EVTiles now.

20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So we think there's a chance that we could get some routes flown already before the end of the decade. [SPEAKER_00]: But starting in 2031 is when we're going to be able to sell this across the world. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see as the biggest challenges to certification? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the thing about this aircraft is unlike, you know, the EV tools are really exciting and, you know, flying cars and all of this, but they have a new and unproven operation mode.

20:52 [SPEAKER_00]: They have a lot of new and proven pieces of technology. [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas this is, you know, if you look at, we have about 3,000 requirements that we need to meet to certify this, but it's only about 20 of those like 0.7% that is unique to this design. [SPEAKER_00]: because it's so similar to what's done before.

21:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I think actually building a larger aircraft that looks conventional is easier than building a small aircraft that is, you know, hasn't a sort of a new type of operation and a sort of an innovative architecture or concept of flight. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, you know, it's certainly more straightforward.

21:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly airlines are interested because you have a lot of investors already. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, our anchor investors are united in the air Canada. [SPEAKER_00]: They put in large orders and yeah, and also airlines across the world. [SPEAKER_00]: Like JSX we talked about, but also SAS as we didn't.

21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: My mind also goes to the Middle East always as a frequent fire who loves Middle East in airlines because there are [SPEAKER_01]: they're all about the big wide bodies, but this is also in a way so perfect for a country like the UAE or Saudi Arabia that has cities for a part. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

22:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Where you want to get them into the big hub, like get them from Abu Dhabi to Dubai or from Basakhima to Dubai. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of use cases down there as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It's been sort of about India or earlier. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so India has this program, I think it's called Udon Schemer or something like that, where they basically want to, I think it's built a thousand new airports, there's a ten thousand new airports.

22:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So they're really betting on this technology, and every year we're seeing it airlines based in India that are breaking records in terms of new orders for aircraft. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the important thing to realize, you know, aircraft or air travel asset technology is only in its infancy, like 80% of the world's population has never been on an aircraft once.

22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And as they move certain moving into the middle class, [SPEAKER_00]: they want to use this, this, this infrastructure as well. [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I think it's as logical and as much sort of a human right as being connected to the internet, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like being connected to this network, it's what allows you to be connected to the world.

23:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's what allows you to you know, have competitive and you're in, have competitiveness in your industry. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's not a good to have. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a need to have. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but it's also standing against that thing when this thing grows and all those populated, you know, last majority of the world's population is in Asia, you know, that's going to have a climate effect.

23:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to figure out a way to mitigate that as much as possible. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the technology that we're sitting by now. [SPEAKER_01]: So right now we're in Platsburg and upstate New York. [SPEAKER_01]: What brings you guys here to start you started in Gothamburg? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

23:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, this was a great place to fly. [SPEAKER_00]: We shipped part of this aircraft, we've rebuilt a lot of it, but part of this aircraft was shipped over from Sweden. [SPEAKER_00]: The fuselage notably right now. [SPEAKER_00]: And so this was a convenient location. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great airport.

24:01 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of flight test activity happening here. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very long runway. [SPEAKER_00]: It's 15,000 foot runway. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, there's a whole ecosystem around this thing, this place, it's also very lovely around here. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you get some time, you should drive up to Lake Plaza, where they had the Olympics and all of this stuff, and we're excited about it, because we're going to get some really good footage of the flight.

24:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Are you doing air to air or something? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're going to have a chase. [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have a, the sesame caravan chasing it. [SPEAKER_00]: We're, we're having a chase drone, a chase car, and then like, it doesn't people on the ground. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, it feels, have, you know, like, there's the Hollywood production coming here as well to get this, really, and the point of that is we really want to cap for the imagination of the public.

24:48 [SPEAKER_00]: we want to show people in sort of full 4K resolution with what the future holds. [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think it's, I just want people to feel the same excitement that I'm feeling, which is a historic moment. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's interesting here is that I'd say the U.S. is the country in the world where people treat flying most like taking the bus, like most casual approach to flight, whereas in other parts of the world, it's still viewed us like, oh, wow, I'm going to the airport.

25:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm taking a flight, but what you're trying to do is make the whole world feel like this is just another form of transport, but it's even more convenient. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not this big thing that flying [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the U.S. always is a large country, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And people criss-cross from coast to coast a lot.

25:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a long flight. [SPEAKER_00]: I think Europeans can view a flight a little bit more as, you know, like, there's other options. [SPEAKER_00]: There's the train and there's, you know, you to drive and all of this stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: But this country would, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: The U.S. is like, we're working, we wouldn't work without with our air travel.

25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and I, I mean, I think you could say that for Europe in many ways as well, but it's such a part of the country here, and it's obviously was invented here and all of this stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, it's, it's, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: In the spirit of the Wright brothers, we're taking the next step.

26:14 [SPEAKER_00]: for sure yes 120 years since the right brothers and yeah I think it's going to be the dawn of the new era and people look back at this and be like wow electrification like I I can imagine being you know sort of when I retire looking back at this and feeling like hey we got to [SPEAKER_00]: I hear something play a part in this tradition and create something that, yeah, I can't wait to see this thing operate commercially and, you know, be with my kids and point at it and be like, yeah, you know, I know this.

26:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and truly it's so, so exciting. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Monumental, so congratulations and we can't wait to follow along and see what happened. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you guys for coming here. [SPEAKER_00]: I love showing you around. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, next one we're going to have the full interior so you can come and check it out.

27:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I want to congratulate you on your flying. [SPEAKER_00]: I was pretty impressed by that. [SPEAKER_00]: Simulator flying. [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully I'll be on one of the first flights of the- oh yeah, my simulator. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't crash, so thank you so much. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.

27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: pretty exciting stuff, very exciting stuff, actually. [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot wait to be able to try this aircraft myself and for the flying public to be able to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we're seeing is basically the legacy aircraft manufacturers, Airbus and Boeing, [SPEAKER_01]: are in this awkward position I feel where their main business, the vast majority of it, is obviously selling fossil fuel powered aircraft and those are doing very well.

27:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So the incentive to completely disrupt their current product line is not there in the same way that these startups like hard aerospace have incentives to disrupt and come in with [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like the likes of Tesla or BYD that are introducing, that have revolutionized the electric car market and forced BMW and Mercedes and all the traditional manufacturers to hurry up.

28:24 [SPEAKER_01]: with their electric or hybrid products to compete once those things become popular. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely. [SPEAKER_02]: And look, this is definitely the direction of travel as well. [SPEAKER_02]: This is the industry commitment and it's all happening with these exciting little offshoots.

28:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether it's with different startups or small businesses. [SPEAKER_02]: that are all recognizing that this next chapter of our travel will be defined by our ability to have genuine clean green flying that is eventually zero emission and therefore leaves no room for conversation about having to fly less or having to look for solutions.

28:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be a journey there. [SPEAKER_02]: That's no one is denying that. [SPEAKER_02]: We're already on the way But that doesn't mean that we're anywhere near to the destination yet But I think it's the smaller players and your conversation here demonstrates that that are really going to be the enablers that are really going to be able to streamline things to get it done faster [SPEAKER_02]: then the big legacy, the big legacy players like Airbus and Boeing, who are still as you say focused on the now, as well as all their projects that folks on the future.

29:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, really great chat, super interesting, and I'm glad that you managed to sit down with their CEO. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you also. [SPEAKER_01]: I posted a real last week saying, like, no one likes airports. [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, that was like my intro. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I saw that.

29:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I got some people being like, what do you mean? [SPEAKER_01]: I love airports. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you, listen, like, we're avgeeks. [SPEAKER_01]: So I said, when I'm looking out the window, I'm very happy. [SPEAKER_01]: But airports themselves is that out of any place you could be, [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, no.

30:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, no. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, love what they represent. [SPEAKER_02]: I love what they enable. [SPEAKER_02]: I know it will rule that, but of course, no. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, in early summer now, in the last week, I've flown four times and three out of four bus gates and chaotic boarding and delayed start times because it's the afternoon in Europe and slot restrictions and blah, blah, you know, and it's, oh gosh, [SPEAKER_02]: you can't wait to be away from the airport in that scenario to have arrived and to have let go of everyone else.

30:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Sing your group or everyone else. [SPEAKER_02]: Sam behind you or whatever you just want to go back to not knowing anyone and understood I understood I understood your real completely. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think that it was unreasonable. [SPEAKER_01]: Oscar and I were discussing, and I definitely think that if you're one of those people who takes one trip a year or flying is only associated with vacations, then I understand that airports equals something good to you.

31:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It means something special is going to happen. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's why that's why, you know, to business travelers and frequent flyers, we're always the ones who show up the airport one minute before checking closes And otherwise the cumulative time we would spend in airports is just too much and horrendous for us for us to have experienced so many delays and cancellations [SPEAKER_01]: I just like the idea of spending access time in an airport is negative to me because of all these memories of being stuck in an airport while something that is happening as opposed to just thinking oh yeah about to go on vacation you know.

31:45 [SPEAKER_02]: You're right, you're right, so it's perspective and it depends what you're there for, of course, and different, you know, everyone has a different reason for being there and some people have waited a whole year to be there and they want to enjoy every minute of it, including that early morning at the airport that for the special to them and so on and that's their right and that's nice for them as well.

32:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's, you know, it's a subjective of course. [SPEAKER_01]: If you use the British media's logic, [SPEAKER_01]: at a free pass in the airport should be thrilled because they're only going on holiday that's the honest part of life. [SPEAKER_02]: How many years have I tried to correct the record of this where I sit on TV and say yeah okay just to let you know everyone is just coming on holiday I get it if it's July and August but it's when they talk about like a February holiday is that risk?

32:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like yeah February holidays no one's traveling for anything else huh? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, everyone asked about you at Farmer. [SPEAKER_02]: I went to Farmer Airshow. [SPEAKER_01]: They were asking about you. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell it how. [SPEAKER_01]: How was it? [SPEAKER_02]: It was good.

32:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I met many industry friends. [SPEAKER_02]: I met Hobi Explains. [SPEAKER_02]: Great guy. [SPEAKER_02]: Nice guy. [SPEAKER_02]: Very, yeah, really sweet. [SPEAKER_02]: I met a whole bunch of people know and of course, that should have gone blank. [SPEAKER_02]: So now it's about trying to remember names.

33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I caught up with friends that I know of course, but also met loads of new people. [SPEAKER_02]: I was walking at one power walking out of there. [SPEAKER_02]: I think on day one, starving needed to to leave. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm power walking out of there and there was a golf bucket coming towards me.

33:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And this guy shouted, I [SPEAKER_02]: I love the podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was delighted. [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't you. [SPEAKER_02]: A few people when I was on board the United A321 XL are interesting little aircraft. [SPEAKER_02]: Very interesting indeed.

33:34 [SPEAKER_02]: A few people asked me on there like wears down and I just basically had fun inventing different reasons. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm on United. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why the hand is in here. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I said, Dan, Dan, well, to one person I said, jury duty, do another person I said, oh, they don't usually let people leave the witness box, just for our shows.

34:01 [SPEAKER_02]: To others, I said, he really wanted to be here. [SPEAKER_02]: It's difficult, you know, when you lock in a permit to buy a tiger, you've got to commit. [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to go, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, to other, someone I said, Dan, I said, Oh, we don't ask that question anymore.

34:17 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't ask about Dan, we don't ask about Dan, we don't do it. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so there were a few different versions, but although it was nice to hear that people do value the conversation as a duo, and definitely got some endorsements for, you know, potentially rather people I could do the podcast with, that was also very, you know, options, options.

34:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we made it. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, was this a very underwhelming formula? [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: It was so quiet. [SPEAKER_02]: It was so underwhelming. [SPEAKER_02]: It was so vacant and empty or any sign of commercial aviation life. [SPEAKER_01]: And it had nothing to do with it.

35:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, got off to a bad start because Dan wasn't there because that's what he wants it. [SPEAKER_02]: But, but genuinely, it was a really, really, really mediocre slash Paul Vombrasho. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just become a defense show. [SPEAKER_02]: It's all happening inside because of the world that we live in and the demand for defense everywhere.

35:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And in terms of comma, I mean, it was, it was [SPEAKER_02]: It was pathetic the number of commercial aircraft out on the apron nothing if Emirates did not bring their way through 50 which by the way they only brought at the last minute. [SPEAKER_02]: If they did not bring that through 50, United through 21XLR would have been the only thing there and that all stayed for two days.

35:40 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a really poor showing but also a really you could feel it was all anyone was talking about like it felt abandoned It felt like the last day of the air show. [SPEAKER_02]: Now that's nothing against it in terms of the organisation It was slick in terms of farm grass show as a company and what they deliver They definitely did that best.

36:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Things were smooth, slick, easy [SPEAKER_02]: flowing, and I really, and they were really excellent communicators. [SPEAKER_02]: They make sure everyone knows about the announcements if they're awesome. [SPEAKER_02]: They utilize the WhatsApp group world, they, you know, pushing out things, they're keeping everyone informed, I really, really like how Farmer is run.

36:19 [SPEAKER_02]: What I think is really poor showing is, in terms of it being a commercial airline asso traditionally, what are poor showing from the industry and therefore a very underwhelming, unfortunately, farmer asso. [SPEAKER_02]: But a great country with everyone. [SPEAKER_02]: That was the nice part.

36:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's sad to think of all the avgeeks who dreamt of going and finally made it to an air show to be greeted by two interesting commercial aircraft basically and I agree that you and I Like we notice this emphasis on defense and I'm just like Can we separate these things please? [SPEAKER_01]: I know they're all aviation, but to me the the defense side of aviation has nothing to do with our [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, completely.

37:06 [SPEAKER_02]: It was always separate and now it's all all the businesses happening inside in terms of defense Sales and they're selling drones and missiles and all that stuff and and the airline stuff is just not happening Now airlines do take it into their own hand. [SPEAKER_02]: They prefer to announce things on their own turf on their own terms They have these big state-like events to announce commercial aircraft orders [SPEAKER_02]: So times have really changed.

37:29 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not saving things up for an show and specifically Farmbra. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of negative comments from airline sector leaders who were present at Farmbra saying, look, this show is just not as important as it used to be. [SPEAKER_02]: And also, some were going further and saying, I'm sorry, but the UK and their aviation sector is just not as important or as relevant as they perhaps think.

37:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, the last thing any airline is doing is saying, we should definitely utilize Farmbra for that. [SPEAKER_02]: If they were, it's still giving credit to Paris and Le Boge, but it was not the case for her Farmer. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think saying this as a social media person that social media is partly to blame for airlines not needing these huge events to get their news out there because there's always attention on it.

38:17 [SPEAKER_01]: They can always just share what they need on social media. [SPEAKER_02]: And you know that better than anyone, and I would say that yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_02]: They're just different ways to communicate all of this. [SPEAKER_02]: And all of the things they were traditionally communicate are fomber.

38:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're right, for sure. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, it just felt a bit, a bit sad. [SPEAKER_02]: But it was, it... [SPEAKER_02]: On the whole, that doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy it, or that everyone else didn't enjoy it. [SPEAKER_02]: We genuinely, it's lovely to be surrounded by industry friends.

38:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Amy, friend of the podcast, dedicated to all this. [SPEAKER_02]: Amy was with me on day one, which was great, got to introduce her to quite a few people. [SPEAKER_02]: Had very productive briefings from the likes of Rose Royce, who were providing really decent updates to me on the progress of the Tren XWB-97.

39:02 [SPEAKER_02]: performance in the Middle East and the real engine upgrades the enhancements to the different parts of the engine that they are working on and executing as we speak that will increase the efficiency or address the issues. [SPEAKER_02]: It was really well explained and what we'll do in a future episode probably on the back of some some engine use because it's always out there.

39:25 [SPEAKER_02]: is I'll take you through what some of those updates were in detail because it was not only worthy of being heard but it's interesting to really now down on okay here's beyond the headline here is actually how a company like Rose Royce [SPEAKER_02]: is working to further improve, for example, the dispatch reliability on an A350 that's already in service and what that means for airlines.

39:51 [SPEAKER_02]: What that means for us as passengers and what that means for the sector. [SPEAKER_02]: It was really interesting to spend time with Rose Ross and I'm appreciative to the guys and to Ben who saw to that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was great. [SPEAKER_01]: So now I'm a little sad because we are going to take a bit of a summer break.

40:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so on air with Dan and Alex will be back for a new season in September. [SPEAKER_02]: At this point, it's time for us because we have been going and going since Alastair. [SPEAKER_02]: Since this season, it's actually started, yeah, since January, we had a small Christmas break only, but we, of course, have loved every minute of it, and we will have that, you know, that craving and about a week or two of us, oh, it could really do with discussing that on the podcast.

40:45 [SPEAKER_02]: but in order to ensure that you have us fresh and ready to take on the next, you know, September almost is like a new year in the aviation calendar and so you need us. [SPEAKER_02]: You need us in good form and ready for that and so with that we will be taking this break. [SPEAKER_02]: and we will return wherever you get your podcasts with a new season of on air.

41:09 [SPEAKER_02]: At some point in September, the date will be announced on the shared Instagram at on air with Danon Alex all one word. [SPEAKER_01]: It will be there. [SPEAKER_01]: We will be there. [SPEAKER_01]: We cannot wait to see you then. [SPEAKER_01]: We wish you a lovely restful summer. [SPEAKER_01]: Go rest.

41:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're going to do. [SPEAKER_01]: You should do it too. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the time to power up your battery for the fall and we can't wait to see you when we're back. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: How an amazing restful summer. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, and to you too, and I hope that you, and the listeners, I'll be, you eat well, you sleep well, laugh well, enjoy, relax, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh,

42:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And any time we go on summer break, there's immediately a massive headline like the day after. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it goes in when we're back. [SPEAKER_01]: This always happens. [SPEAKER_01]: We will see you all then on air. [SPEAKER_01]: Bye-bye.