The Airline Industry News We Don't Want to Talk About

0:00 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and welcome back to onair. [SPEAKER_01]: It's another week. [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a chatie one. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope right, Alex. [SPEAKER_04]: I think so. [SPEAKER_04]: We've already been because we have this moment. [SPEAKER_04]: Don't we wear it. [SPEAKER_04]: We're like, okay, we need to press record.

0:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we need to press record. [SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, we just get carried away with with with starting the episode. [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we should [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that's an idea. [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we should have that as like an exclusive. [SPEAKER_04]: You know the first 15-minute conversation that we had, there's currently not a share.

0:28 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a part of the episode. [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that should be something that the inner circle, the apparently members of Honor have access to. [SPEAKER_04]: Just do here because that first 15 minutes, especially if you and I haven't spoken since the previous week, I mean, that's full of that.

0:46 [SPEAKER_04]: That's T served hot. [SPEAKER_01]: with sugar and and also yeah it's uh I don't know how I feel about sharing that with the world but well think about it certainly um and it always is one of those things where you go no no save this for the episode no no save that for the episode sure we can't stall yeah guys thank you for tuning in last week we read your feedback and uh yeah what do we think Alex [SPEAKER_04]: I think yeah, really helpful because we want to know obviously what not only what works for you guys, but also what you feel you get the most out of and there's there are just as many of you that said that you appreciate the level of the depth and the detail of the deep dyes, but also the other side to that coin being that you guys also preferring some scenarios.

1:36 [SPEAKER_04]: The original format of the podcast where we kind of are a more conversational. [SPEAKER_04]: We still have those deeper dives as part of the main [SPEAKER_04]: segments and then newsy bits usually in the middle of the episodes followed by Q&A. [SPEAKER_04]: So we are here to remain agile and to respond.

1:53 [SPEAKER_04]: to the needs and requirements of our wonderful listeners. [SPEAKER_04]: So we take it all on board and we will make sure there is a healthy mix of all going forward, right? [SPEAKER_01]: 100%. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when if we ever want to do a serious deep dive, we'll do that, but we're also going to mix and match.

2:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So everyone is happy, but speaking of mixing and matching and being back to being chitty, chitty, chitty, [SPEAKER_01]: One thing we missed last week, which we didn't get to discuss is the fact that if you guys have listened to on air since the start, you will know that for the first, I don't know several months, Alex's entire identity was spent three days in a late.

2:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, so I didn't sign up for this and I didn't know when you're ambushing me on the podcast That isn't damn right lie my personality was not the wonderful sunset city of L.A. and Beverly Hills [SPEAKER_04]: where I was residing for that period of time. [SPEAKER_04]: So much more to my personality than that.

2:59 [SPEAKER_04]: So how dare you misrepresent me, especially to new listeners who might not have been blessed to have been hearing us from the beginning from the other series of the podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to point out speaking of that, but I was in LA on my round-the-world trip. [SPEAKER_01]: I was actually there three times, so I have now put my flag there.

3:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I pulled yours out of the ground, I had avocado to surprise my friends do that. [SPEAKER_01]: It was looking a bit radian-tattered, but it was frackety. [SPEAKER_01]: outside in and out. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I went to Erawan and Beverly Hills as you have to do to try the elite people. [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't do that.

3:42 [SPEAKER_04]: You're laughing because you know it sounds pathetic. [SPEAKER_04]: You went to Erawan's going to find some celebrity smoothie. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, come on. [SPEAKER_01]: Come on. [SPEAKER_01]: They took the same most self-driving car to get there. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_04]: Let's genuinely talk about that.

3:56 [SPEAKER_04]: So the way Mo, [SPEAKER_04]: self-driving cars, and then I want to talk to you back in and out, burger in NLA, but first on the self-driving cars, who's idea have you done it before and where you nervous? [SPEAKER_01]: What are you asked? [SPEAKER_01]: Are you still asking about self-driving cars?

4:15 [SPEAKER_01]: One of those episodes is it? [SPEAKER_01]: So we, yes, let me start from the very beginning. [SPEAKER_01]: We land in LA. [SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing we see as we leave the airport because we most can drive to the airport, but they're all over LA. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, they have this here.

4:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the first time we've been in a city with self-driving cars everywhere since they were introduced so I'm like you know what it's a cool idea But I don't want to try it. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to support real human beings. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want my money [SPEAKER_01]: to go to some tech company.

4:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to support these drivers who are out here. [SPEAKER_04]: He says he's working hard. [SPEAKER_04]: Talking to his latest generation, microphone plugged into his latest Apple Mac. [SPEAKER_01]: Seriously, self-recording on his iPhone connected to his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we take our first lift ride, actually, not an Uber, and the car shows up and it has no rear doors.

5:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to enter through the front with this woman folding the seat up to let us get in. [SPEAKER_01]: Then she drove like a maniac and was walking the lift driver and was talking the whole time about nonsense. [SPEAKER_01]: We were so jet-light, I was like, oh god. [SPEAKER_01]: Later that day, we took a really long walk from Marina del Rade down to the beach.

5:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We had the most amazing evening. [SPEAKER_01]: Later that day, we need to take an Uber, that time to get back to our hotel. [SPEAKER_01]: And this time, the driver freaked us out a bit with his driving and what he was talking about. [SPEAKER_01]: He was like going into politics that we didn't necessarily agree with.

6:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So the next day we wake up and I'm like, you know what, I'm done supporting humans. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to support these humans. [SPEAKER_01]: Give me a robot. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I see there was a build up. [SPEAKER_04]: This explains quite a bit. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we get in our first way, Mo.

6:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And my life will never be the same because you and I both know we're on the trips. [SPEAKER_01]: We've done together We're both a bit nervous in the past. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're not the best. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_04]: I think you're a bit better than me, but yeah, I don't [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't, if the driver's going to go on their phone, yeah, immediately, I'm not happy.

6:52 [SPEAKER_04]: If they start erratically changing lanes for no reason, or just the lack of forward planning, right? [SPEAKER_04]: You can see that everyone's slowing down ahead. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Michelle, are you continuing to speed up? [SPEAKER_04]: No, you know, slow down. [SPEAKER_04]: And also the excessive, you know, that awful star breaking and acceleration that you get in the back of a Tesla, which is interesting.

7:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Deal with Tesla's, I can't do it. [SPEAKER_04]: In-dump motion sickness, yeah, I can't. [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, we're not great passengers in that sense. [SPEAKER_04]: I at the driver has to drive stably and smoothly. [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want them talking about weird stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want them smelling weird.

7:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You want the car to be good. [SPEAKER_01]: All this stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: So we get in this window a little bit nervous. [SPEAKER_01]: And with them five minutes, we have unlimited like groomed because the seats are all the way forward. [SPEAKER_01]: We're blasting our favorite music on loud volume.

7:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking loudly and we are having the time of our lives because we realize that when there's not another human in there, you can do whatever you want. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, it feels like you're in your own car. [SPEAKER_01]: because there's no stranger there, but you also don't have to drive.

7:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like the best of both worlds. [SPEAKER_01]: And the car is super careful and cautious at intersections. [SPEAKER_01]: We never felt nervous or like it was making any risky moves for example, but it also wasn't like too slow. [SPEAKER_01]: It kept like where a light would turn yellow and it would immediately not try to make it that kind of thing.

8:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was the perfect time to make it. [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, oh, it was a balance of it. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's obviously calculating internally exactly how much time it has to do something. [SPEAKER_01]: So it was just so nice. [SPEAKER_01]: And the next time. [SPEAKER_01]: So going back from Beverly Hills, we took another one.

8:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We step into the car and the seat immediately starts adjusting to our desire to the leg room. [SPEAKER_01]: We used last time. [SPEAKER_01]: The music that we were playing recently. [SPEAKER_01]: Immediately. [SPEAKER_01]: it was like this is it's again like stepping into your own car and we were sold I was like I want this everywhere I want only roads with these cars with no crazy drivers who are going to make a rational human choices or people who are tired or drunk or whatever you know and it made me think that I've always been so opposed to self-flying planes and this is obviously a controversial [SPEAKER_01]: But the same thing applies there where pilots can be tired, very tired, they're dealing with jet lag, weird departure times.

9:21 [SPEAKER_01]: There's most of the incidents that happen are due to human error. [SPEAKER_01]: So what happens if you suddenly eliminate the human error? [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, there's the risk of external interference, which is more concerning for a plane than an individual car, for example. [SPEAKER_01]: But I still see the benefits and also just for airport pickups because taxi drivers for Waymo can't go to Aliacs.

9:47 [SPEAKER_01]: There's like a red zone there so you can't get dropped off or picked up in a Waymo. [SPEAKER_01]: But what's the point in taxi drivers all around the world sitting and waiting for hours sometimes at airports to pick someone up? [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that the perfect place for a robot? [SPEAKER_01]: to be waiting instead because it's not really costing the robot the same amount for it's time for just the loss productivity, you know, I just, there's so many opportunities to make things more efficient and to use people's times more effectively.

10:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is an example of that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: No, you're absolutely right. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was a, I mean, these, uh, these style of self-driving cars, not necessarily only way more, but other companies as well, are making their way across cities. [SPEAKER_04]: And they are changing the last mile, right?

10:34 [SPEAKER_04]: So they are changing how, you know, how we reach our destination after the airline has has finished its bits and pieces and you've got your [SPEAKER_04]: A similar conversation, I've been witnessing with some of the Alan execs that I speak with, focus on how they can actually curate or change that last mile for something that doesn't look as predictable as just getting an attack seed, but it's something that is more integrated into the air travel experience.

11:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Are they, are they, are we going to see an Alan be bold enough to say, like, hey, let's do a [SPEAKER_04]: Hyperloop style thing with a big tech company where it means that you genuinely reach where you need to be rather. [SPEAKER_04]: Or are we going to see kind of on a more basic level, more partnerships between?

11:21 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, a train company in the airline so that you genuinely get there is they're going to be more black-lane style transfers, maybe self-driving, black-lane style executive transfers, built into a business and first-class ticket by default, airlines are increasingly having to think about that last mile.

11:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And self-driving cars definitely going to be part, or is already now part of that conversation. [SPEAKER_04]: And they're popping up. [SPEAKER_04]: I've seen videos of them driving around London. [SPEAKER_04]: There are various cities now across the Gulf, in the Middle East, in Trial Phase, of course, dotted around Asia and so on.

11:54 [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's an interesting one. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, think about this. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll mark to AmeriPort and Dubai. [SPEAKER_01]: I know is discussing some groundbreaking luggage delivery systems, for example, where the luggage goes straight down into the ground from the aircraft and is then brought to the terminal by some conveyor or robot or whatever, [SPEAKER_01]: to have your bag delivered out of the ground.

12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's no carousels, it's individual like that. [SPEAKER_01]: So what if you take it a step further, now with facial recognition and immigration, that's also a thing in the UAE, for example, it's starting to be a thing. [SPEAKER_01]: We're imagine this, you get off your plane instead of going into the terminal, you get into a self-driving car.

12:37 [SPEAKER_01]: that's there's a camera in the car that scans your face you clear immigration and it takes you right home and then later on there's a robotic car that delivers your bag because it's also scan your face and knows where you're going like there's so many opportunities so many opportunities to rip up the rulebook and yeah and just change how you know change the norms and [SPEAKER_04]: I hope that we I think I think we will see more year and year after year it's getting better, but it's still slow and then people are still struggling to find a bag even with an air tag in it.

13:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very slow industry to innovate because it's so complex so yeah yeah we got that. [SPEAKER_01]: Before we get into the news there was just something I wanted to briefly talk about and hear your thoughts on. [SPEAKER_01]: So I was watching a YouTube video yesterday, where it wasn't related to aviation at all, but someone was talking about how nothing feels like an event anymore, so the stranger thing is finale, or something that should be so huge for people.

13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It becomes hyped up for like a few days, and then everyone moves on so, so quickly, because of how much information we're getting these days, how many things are happening, and also how spread out everyone's algorithms are. [SPEAKER_01]: And it made me think of airlines because this morning, I was just like, oh, good, read air.

13:59 [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening there? [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that I was invited by a brand that's working on something with read air. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't sign a contract. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I can talk about this. [SPEAKER_01]: But I got an email saying, we'd love to sponsor your video from read air as an all-girl flight [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, but that's February 10th, there ain't been no an all girl flight.

14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, well, they don't have the aircraft yet. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, clearly there's delays and all this stuff, but it just made me realize that we were talking more about Riyadh Air in 2024, then we're doing in 2026 closer to their launch. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the problem with like all these airlines announced things these days so far in advance.

14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And largely due to due to things outside of their control, they can't launch when they intend. [SPEAKER_01]: But because people have such a potential, it tends to like spend these days. [SPEAKER_01]: You need to, you can't announce things in advance anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: It needs to be when it's happening because people will move on and forget.

15:08 [SPEAKER_04]: You're absolutely right, and for any airlines that need to hear that, you know, don't announce things too far in advance, not simply because old people will forget, but especially in aviation where it is up to all the other key parts of the ecosystem to deliver, and they can't because of the supply chain crisis, the lack of spare parts, the lack of manpower, the lack of skilled workforce and so on.

15:30 [SPEAKER_04]: So you've got airlines unveiling cabin products that are not seeing the like [SPEAKER_04]: you've got airline launches that are delaying the launch of that coming products because they I know that they're not ready. [SPEAKER_04]: It's funny. [SPEAKER_04]: And really, that was a lot of very early hype which I understand because they're able to very easily hype up something that is something to come in the future.

15:57 [SPEAKER_04]: And we spoken in depth about that. [SPEAKER_04]: What's funny is I still get this this happened yesterday and especially in the middle east right Alex house aviation blah blah blah and then oh and it's always the same conversation [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, they're hot. [SPEAKER_04]: They're gonna be something big, you know, they're hurt, they're amazing.

16:18 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, how did you possibly do that? [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's, they are amazing when they haven't lost anyone's bug, you know? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: They haven't had a single, delayed flight with a lot of people on it. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so, you know, it's funny how, generally, [SPEAKER_04]: the public prefer in these scenarios, the devil, they don't know rather than the devil than they do.

16:45 [SPEAKER_04]: And the grass is always perceived to be greener on the other side, even though at the moment. [SPEAKER_04]: There's not even soil for that cross to be, to be kind of resting on it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it reminds me of your sister, Demi, when she asked you, Alex, why are we not on the new B.A.

17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Cabin? [SPEAKER_04]: When you guys usually ask that every time, that wasn't once. [SPEAKER_04]: Every time we board a B.A.A., she's like, oh, we're not on. [SPEAKER_04]: We're not on BA's proper cabins again. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, what proper cabin? [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the one that I showed a father, I'm like, Demi, Demi, Demi, Demi, let's talk about aviation.

17:20 [SPEAKER_04]: And then of course she asks, she asks a very valid question. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then why would they show something that they actually in reality don't have the most people? [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, oh my god. [SPEAKER_04]: The question that's going on in a travel. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's all our grievances and one sentence, literally.

17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's partly the problem of showing something that you don't even widely have. [SPEAKER_01]: But then there is the problem of showing something that you literally don't even have yet. [SPEAKER_01]: And another example is Turkish new business class, which [SPEAKER_01]: who knows when that's going to happen, but it's like, yeah, don't keep teasing us.

17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's an advance. [SPEAKER_01]: Just people, even we are busy enough to forget, just build up hype when it's ready and then people can enjoy it, you know? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and people will, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: years and years ago in aviation, but part of the reason there is because there wasn't the supply chain crisis that we have now.

18:20 [SPEAKER_04]: And all these suppliers were able to deliver. [SPEAKER_04]: It's just all been such a mess since the pandemic. [SPEAKER_04]: It's just ruined production across the scale in aviation. [SPEAKER_04]: And when an aircraft has about three million parts, you only need a few to be unavailable for that aircraft, ultimately, you know, [SPEAKER_04]: be unable to be delivered.

18:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the situation that Alan's on themselves in seat suppliers. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yes, that I was talking with, yes, that I was talking with at Alan. [SPEAKER_04]: There were [SPEAKER_04]: understandably, freaking out at the fact that, you know, that's got to go in before Chinese New Year because Chinese New Year's such an interruption to the production flow and the time run, the schedule and from what I understand it's later this year than usual.

19:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I always associate it with January, but maybe I'm not sure. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's February to March to early March this year. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but that's a this year thing. [SPEAKER_04]: So Chinese New Year this year is 17th February until the 3rd of March. [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and that obviously has massive implications on all the factories closing and the lead times and production and whatnot.

19:29 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's uh, yeah, oh, I am saying it does move. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just looking at an example in 2008. [SPEAKER_04]: It was at the, it was March earlier. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. [SPEAKER_04]: 2007. [SPEAKER_04]: No, it was late, that's okay, seven. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's move on from Chinese New Year.

19:44 [SPEAKER_01]: 2006. [SPEAKER_01]: That's correct. [SPEAKER_04]: It was in January in 2006, I'm just just saying yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about something that I absolutely despise. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like talking about safety things to freak people out, and especially not when it's something that is so avoidable and so close to home.

20:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But I say yes, this thing that happened this past week was no good in Debra. [SPEAKER_04]: No, so your national airline, the independent Scandinavian special forces, Kara S.A.A. [SPEAKER_04]: had encountered something as it really serious, very easily could have resulted in disaster. [SPEAKER_04]: I have no idea how this could have happened, but in a nutshell, it was on an occurred on the fifth of February last week, Thursday after we had recorded.

20:45 [SPEAKER_04]: And it was flight SK 2590 operating or should have been operating from Brussels to Copenhagen. [SPEAKER_04]: That's only a 470 mile flight and it uses there a 320 Neo which is an aircraft type that you and I attended the delivery of all those years ago when we were just kids in the freezing cold stock.

21:05 [SPEAKER_04]: 135. [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. [SPEAKER_01]: I see us as well. [SPEAKER_01]: It was in stock, wasn't it? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: And we did the delivery. [SPEAKER_04]: It was a quieted delivery event. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we weren't on the delivery. [SPEAKER_01]: We just saw the aircraft in Stockholm at their reveal event.

21:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, yes, it was the delivery event, but not the delivery flight only they did it an invite to eat every flight We'll hide you from Airbus love, love, love, I do so anyway back to the scenario the happen last week It was supposed to do the aircraft was running behind schedule, which is red flag number one Keep this in the back of your head, because this makes sense shortly While it was supposed to depart at eight thirty p.m. it ended up [SPEAKER_04]: attempting to depart at 10pm, but as you assume learn that didn't actually go to plan.

21:54 [SPEAKER_04]: So the pilots were supposed to taxi out to runway 7 right and instead they turned earlier at one of the intersections of the taxiways and they started accelerating [SPEAKER_04]: and an ultimately starting, you know, commencing there a takeoff sequence prior to the role, which is where they pitch the nose up to the sky and the aircraft begins to climb.

22:22 [SPEAKER_04]: So everything before that ultimately, the aircraft accelerating on a taxiway, instead of on pilots, as sorry, instead of on the runway, the pilots reaching 107 knots. [SPEAKER_04]: That's, [SPEAKER_04]: That's only about 25 knots away from the air through 20 years typical takeoff speed.

22:47 [SPEAKER_04]: This was an aircraft, if you were sitting on it as a passenger, that was very much seconds away from takeoff, yet it wasn't on a runway, it was on a taxiway. [SPEAKER_04]: And there are all sorts of reasons as to why this is so incredibly dangerous, not least, because the taxiways shorter than the runway, so they were quickly running out of space.

23:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Taxiways in most scenarios and nowhere near us, architecturally, [SPEAKER_04]: kind of suitable from a Geometry point of view because in a nutshell, they're not straight, right? [SPEAKER_04]: So sometimes they get narrower, or they curve, and so forth, both pilots to have agreed. [SPEAKER_04]: do we start our take off?

23:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: And then they apply thrust and accelerate down the taxiway, which is a completely different set of lighting compared with a runway. [SPEAKER_04]: It's different colours, deliberately, a different sequence of lights. [SPEAKER_04]: It's structured and it has a different layout.

23:52 [SPEAKER_04]: It's deliberately done. [SPEAKER_04]: to ensure that in the hours of darkness there is a clear difference between the runway and the taxiway. [SPEAKER_04]: This is scary stuff, especially as both pilots were seemingly unaware. [SPEAKER_04]: And how could they have been unaware? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, first of all, we should acknowledge that this was at night.

24:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, they were relying on lights partly. [SPEAKER_01]: But as I like said, the lights on a taxiway and a runway are completely [SPEAKER_01]: I'm no pilot, but based on what I've read, the E320 Neo also announces with audio when you enter a runway, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So it's if I was actually on the runway, it was supposed to save.

24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: They were on the runway, but they definitely did not hear that on the taxiway. [SPEAKER_01]: I would assume. [SPEAKER_04]: And if you just imagine kind of visually, you have two pilots that are running behind schedule, [SPEAKER_04]: both used to flying this aircraft, but they're lining up on a taxiway that has green centre-line lights with blue lights on the edge.

25:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Versus a runway that has white centre-line lights and white lights on the edge. [SPEAKER_04]: Just visually, that is a very different scope for both of them it's taken for one not to. [SPEAKER_04]: Now, it's been floated that perhaps because of the delayed schedule, maybe tiredness, [SPEAKER_04]: They were both seeing something that wasn't there.

25:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So when it becomes kind of the mundane routine and they both seeing a runway in front of them, despite fresh eyes, perhaps being able to very quickly spot that this is not a runway. [SPEAKER_04]: This is a taxiway. [SPEAKER_04]: So that's kind of failure number one. [SPEAKER_04]: It does raise questions about if the A320 did its job in terms of audibly announcing that it was either on a taxiway.

25:50 [SPEAKER_04]: or that there was a mismatch, or that it hadn't yet reached a runway. [SPEAKER_04]: So that needs to be investigated, for sure, in terms of the runway awareness advisory system, which is something that's built into the 320. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, kinds of errors here. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that there's not much we can say technically because we are in all pilots, but there's two interesting discussions.

26:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that this leads to the first is, I think that both you and I, if we had been on board, would have noticed. [SPEAKER_04]: We were on a taxi first. [SPEAKER_04]: It was my first thought when I read this, as I was thinking, as a passenger, you and I would have known instantly without fail.

26:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So that my question is realistically, what would we have done? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't think I would have started shouting, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think about moment, I would have done it. [SPEAKER_01]: But I think [SPEAKER_04]: And it wouldn't have, it wouldn't have made a difference really, because the pilot's under you, but it could have, because I mean, my first thought was, if I was a hundred percent sure, which I think we would have been, in order to become a hundred and ten percent sure, I would have over flight radar in that one second, right?

27:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And if I would have seen the aircraft is on a taxiway, and when I start to accelerate, I think, I don't know, I think I would have shouted. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like a, it's like a 30 second thing from where is this sort of thing? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there is, but also for you to realize something is wrong for you to verify.

27:34 [SPEAKER_04]: You know what we're like, I mean, we're like, we know exactly what's ahead. [SPEAKER_04]: And we're, we're flat rate has probably already open on our phones at that time. [SPEAKER_01]: But I would start second guessing. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like, [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the, maybe the GPS is wrong on flight rate or maybe the map is out of days.

27:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, I would say. [SPEAKER_01]: I would say. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a really tricky situation. [SPEAKER_01]: But I know that it is. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the time when I told this before on the podcast when I was on a Ryan air flight. [SPEAKER_01]: And the flaps started going down as these, you know, put the engines to take off as they started.

28:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So that was one of those times where I was like, do I say something? [SPEAKER_01]: But that was long ago, I didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's like, once you're at that point, when the engines are already spooling up, what are you supposed to do? [SPEAKER_01]: It's, [SPEAKER_01]: really tricky.

28:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The other discussion is, of course, the whole extremely short connection time is a problem for a lot of reasons, but especially these evening flights where airlines have every incentive to push to get people to make their connections, because otherwise not only do they [SPEAKER_01]: It's a huge inconvenience, yet airlines keep selling 30, 40, 50 minute connections and a lot of the time, these evening flights are gonna be delayed because they've racked up a whole day of delays.

29:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a bit... [SPEAKER_01]: I always avoid, first of all, I want to say booking those like any connection under an hour and a half these days, but especially in the evening, you want a buffer, but this also shows that the incentive [SPEAKER_01]: for the airline is of course to get away as fast as possible.

29:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what was in these pilots mind. [SPEAKER_01]: Just get them to Copenhagen because a lot of people on this flight are connecting, they might be close to timing out because it's their last flight of the day. [SPEAKER_01]: There's all these things that are contrary to the safety of the flight.

29:55 [SPEAKER_04]: You're right. [SPEAKER_04]: And the feeling of [SPEAKER_04]: when especially, I feel like this is pretty prevalent in European air travel where especially low cost airlines where you're boarding and then they start coming on the announcements that, you know, in order to make sure that we don't miss ass lot, we need everyone to and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, because I understand that in one sense, it's just to stop people from standing in the aisle and just staring, you know, staring vacant at the overhead locker, but on the other end, [SPEAKER_04]: If there is that feeling of rush rush rush, that's when mistakes happen and I don't want my crew to for rush nor do I want the pilots to be rushing, but it does happen.

30:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there are curfews that airlines are very well aware they need to end, and also pilots don't want to end up in the safety office after having to explain why they took so long to, for example, get this aircraft to turn around or whatever, [SPEAKER_04]: when the office believes that they could have done it within the time, and that creates a culture of, you know, or stop taking a time to be perfect and just get on with it.

31:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's a concern in aviation, because for an industry that is so highly regulated and protects the fact that we're the safest form of transport, [SPEAKER_04]: We can't have these middle managers making it worse by saying, well, you could have actually done it ten minutes faster. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, maybe I'll maybe so, but the pilot wants to be sure, you know, and that's systematically, definitely a concern in aviation that drives tiredness and exhaustion and so on.

31:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I will say that, although I at least I never think about this from a safety perspective, I do usually end up avoiding flights like this because I know that the one that likes the flights that are returning to a hub with a lot of connecting passengers in the evening, because you know that one, it's likely to be running late to [SPEAKER_01]: there's going to be something messed up with a connection.

32:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm always worried about those short evening connections. [SPEAKER_01]: If I have a short connection, I'd rather have it in the morning because I know that the flight is more likely beyond time. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, just like in general, evening flights are the riskiest from an all in time perspective.

32:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, they might also be risky or not risky because aviation is so incredibly safe, but risky are from a pilot or cruise stress perspective. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's that it's the time pressure and it's the pressure of OTP, the on-time performance for airlines and and also when you're handling connecting passengers as you [SPEAKER_04]: any takeaway from a listener should be that they should avoid an evening flight returning to a hub.

32:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Not for a week. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but also because they're on the different. [SPEAKER_04]: So you can't apply that to the long haul carriers, you couldn't apply that to flying yeti had an Emirates, for example, it's in Europe, specifically. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, in Europe, I get it, especially when you know that they're going back to base late and there is that element of [SPEAKER_04]: of rush your your more you're trying to avoid inevitable delays is what you're by saying right at the same time a lot of airlines will purposefully hold the last flights of the day from their hub in order to help connecting passengers make it but doesn't mean that it's not being held for a technical reason or anything else it is because they know how many passengers

33:39 [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, there are many flights that even just in the middle of the day, you can have a flight that will be an hour and a half late because they know that they're waiting for 80 passengers to connect from, you know, exile line and it makes sense rather than having to re-protect as is the industry time, 80 passengers on to other partner services.

33:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a very, my, I guess I'm just sharing my philosophy of feeling better about flights the depart for before lunch from an all-in-time perspective, then flights the depart after lunch within [SPEAKER_01]: Europe and the US, where things are very tight and hectic, you don't have long layovers where the aircraft sits on the ground, as is more common in Asia, the Middle East, etc.

34:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to, I mean, something else happened at San Francisco. [SPEAKER_04]: We won't go into too much detail on it, but an air traffic controller accidentally cleared [SPEAKER_04]: to take off on parallel runways basically at the same time, pulling them once again, dangerously close to each other after their comments, their take off roll.

34:55 [SPEAKER_04]: The aircraft started their take off row exactly the same time on runways as I said that were parallel. [SPEAKER_04]: and they had their same departure clearance meaning that they were going to follow the same pattern, obviously that was not going to work. [SPEAKER_04]: And after both aircraft were airborne, the edge of the controllers had obviously realized and gave the aircraft different headings or too many directions in order to ensure that there was kind of increased separation.

35:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I just think again, the US, you know, we're just seeing this every single week now at these big hubs. [SPEAKER_04]: There is a real strain there and boy, do they need to add traffic control reform? [SPEAKER_04]: I just don't know if it's going to happen. [SPEAKER_04]: I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I- [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, seriously, because for all that's going on in the U.S. air traffic control is absolutely broken with no clear fix in sight.

35:49 [SPEAKER_04]: That was a lot of conversation this time last year about air traffic control reforms after the awful, the awful, devastating accident at DCA, the mid-election earlier, the helicopter. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, um, but uh, but that's not much, I mean, we are not known, you know, we know what this current administration [SPEAKER_04]: on turn it's like everything but something like safety we're filming green lentils it's way more important than air traffic control apparently oh why do we even begin there green lentil poke green lentil and poor dirony of of the captive green lentil being nuke [SPEAKER_01]: Well, anyway, I guess when I was flying around the U.S. a lot the past few weeks, you just feel that the whole aviation industry is treated extremely casually, getting on a flight is like getting on a bus.

36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: aircraft have departure times there are like 921 and arrival at 1053 everything's like very and now let's go squeeze in here make the oh like there's always also the thing in the US of our gate is occupied. [SPEAKER_01]: That's always the case. [SPEAKER_01]: Gays are pre-assigned days in advance and then there's a bunch of it's like a bit of a tetris because then one aircraft has to push back and then you can hopefully slide in before that's started, started its engines and done everything so you don't have to wait too long.

37:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all very like cramming a lot into very little and it's treated very technically at work. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which I feel again you go to Asia and it's so much more formal and organized and every aircraft is taking the same exact route to the runway and they're lining up with the same and there's the same separation and there's I mean the whole parallel landing and take off things so much more common in the US as well.

37:51 [SPEAKER_01]: way where you'll have an airport like SFO that can have four active runways at the same time two for landing is in two for takeoffs and it's all in parallel it's a bit like okay this is a lot but thankfully nothing happens so yeah yeah all right let's move back to Europe Liftingza want to add real business class to some of their three twenties are they just need to [SPEAKER_01]: If they do, I think they would take one listen and stop listening again.

38:20 [SPEAKER_01]: If they've heard us talk about it, but apparently they are because if you guys didn't know you're a wings, a low-cost subsidiary of the, or a member of the Lufthansa Group, introduced real recliner seats on certain A320, A320 aircraft, [SPEAKER_01]: that are being used primarily to or from Dubai, because these are six, seven hour flights that are very uncomfortable in any type of entry or a PM seat.

38:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot imagine the people sitting through those flights in an entry or a PM economy seat on a seven hour red eye, which SAS, when I'll also be doing on an A320 Neo starting next winter. [SPEAKER_01]: So, let's see if we can get some additional revenue by introducing these bigger seats.

39:06 [SPEAKER_01]: That are an upsell from the regular entry European business cost which is just an economy see with a blocked middle seat So it's kind of like a their version of a business plus on board these aircraft and apparently it's done well Because now Carston Spore is saying they want to expand it to main line Lufthansa not even Lufthansa city airline or any of the other fun subsidiaries, but real Lufthansa [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there has always been scope, I think, in Europe for something that is a bit more in line with what the US carriers have offered for decades and decades with just like a recliner at the same time, it's funny how.

39:50 [SPEAKER_04]: It also people just accept was current, right, which is just the empty middle seat. [SPEAKER_04]: And just recently I was I flew from Munich to to Louis and it was on a lift answer a 319 that was older than me, which is, you know, great right and the overhead lockers were great and ever all their monuments were old and it was absolutely [SPEAKER_04]: filthy, shoddy, broken, everything inside, right?

40:21 [SPEAKER_04]: It was really, and it was noisy and horrible. [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, what's funny is that they do sell that business class seat for quite a premium, especially on routes where they know there is a flow of business, like tools where everyone's going to wear bus. [SPEAKER_04]: And everyone in the business club, me and was American and they have like different airline tags on that luggage and airbus because most of them are set of going to choose for [SPEAKER_04]: at the crew.

40:49 [SPEAKER_04]: You get the kind of vibe that you are you've accidentally sat down in their staff room. [SPEAKER_04]: So they're chatting and they're endless chatting. [SPEAKER_04]: Not even acknowledging the passengers anyway. [SPEAKER_04]: And then you know then they're like, do you want this food? [SPEAKER_04]: No.

41:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, it doesn't matter. [SPEAKER_04]: And then they throw a couple of chocolates to you and then you're fine. [SPEAKER_04]: surely they realise that as premium travel continues to make airlines the most money and 2025 financial results for airlines reflect one thing that is very clear which is that airlines are losing money but they are covering those losses with the games on premium travel in order to tap in further to business leisure.

41:36 [SPEAKER_04]: if they can at least promise you something that when you're sitting there you don't feel like a complete idiot for spending the money on then then I think that will you know go down well but uh but at the same time I don't see anyone else visibly you know visibly kind of uh I don't know say outrage but but thinking that this is subpar or this isn't this isn't great or maybe they were thinking it but people just get on with it.

42:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it will be interesting to see how this does because the context is that this will presumably be used on longer flights like Cairo, Tel Aviv, Aman, flights that are five or so hours they all leave. [SPEAKER_01]: in the middle of the night from the Middle East because lifetons don't want to get them to the U.S. caches, so the times are not bad or not great.

42:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully they realize that there is demand for this, but I think this could be a whole deep dive because it's a huge conversation topic, why [SPEAKER_01]: isn't Europe interested or why is no one? [SPEAKER_01]: Why would no one buy this? [SPEAKER_01]: Because ultimately I think we're just at a point where all the airlines are looking at each other and saying, okay, you're not going to introduce this?

42:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Great. [SPEAKER_01]: We won't do it. [SPEAKER_04]: And they will get away with it. [SPEAKER_04]: I think it will agree with the status quo for Europe and that's how it is and that's fine. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just what what I find very weird is that lifetimes of all airlines would be the one to start, because they seem the most happy with the status quo.

43:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But maybe it's a response to Air France, for example, flying now triple sevens with a love premiere to Tel Aviv. [SPEAKER_01]: How can liftox on an A321 Neo compete with a wide body triple seven with lifeline seeds and business for people connecting from the U.S. And the past Air France is also flown wide bodies.

43:35 [SPEAKER_01]: quite on and off to be root. [SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm guessing that's the, this is what they're eyeing and saying, okay, we need to have something slightly better to win back passengers. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we'll see, and it's interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: I also have course that now Eta Airways belongs to the Liffdowns group and they have a great 320-1-0.

43:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, this is a subject. [SPEAKER_04]: We have to, we won't go into its day so that we can [SPEAKER_04]: we can give this some more time. [SPEAKER_04]: Have you seen all of the crazy negative feedback about the A321XLR? [SPEAKER_04]: You mean from American? [SPEAKER_04]: From the passengers who have flown on it on American Airlines and now they've given the passengers of Iberia the kind of [SPEAKER_04]: they've given them the idea to also be vocal about it and for me it's everywhere.

44:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Well you know it's funny yes I did a review of it and I it's already being edited as we speak so my script is ready everything is ready for that video and my takeaway was quite positive ironically so why was everyone trusting it and it was and people what [SPEAKER_04]: It's you know when you engage with a couple of tweets on X and then suddenly it realizes that you like that So it's going to show you and serve it to you know everywhere.

44:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I've seen it everywhere everyone is complaining Oh, they were right about this trash blah blah and then and then I've seen some of my barriers pass I bear a person just chime in then somebody emailed me about it. [SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking okay I can feel some kind of cool building here about an aircraft that is a game changer for economics, but maybe the [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, then the only thing to say is vote with your wallet.

45:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Choose another aircraft and show airlines. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want it. [SPEAKER_04]: But it's not about general, hey. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: I think the, the outroar about American is specifically that they have 20 business costs seats with one lavatory. [SPEAKER_01]: While other airlines flying the aircraft, either have fewer seats in business or will have more lavatories.

45:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And people are also, I mean, it's a combination of the seat being a bit of a regression and set of an evolution because people want reverse herringbone, seats the face to window, no face to a mile away or window behind you, it's terrible I didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but this makes me excited to share my review because I guess I'm, I didn't know I would be devil's advocate when I recorded it, but my narrative turns out to be a bit devil's advocate, I guess.

46:03 [SPEAKER_04]: We will stay tuned for the video and I think with that it's a nice segue into Q&A. [SPEAKER_01]: Eat and ask us, what do we think about the long-term business prospects of Norse Atlantic airways? [SPEAKER_01]: What is the future? [SPEAKER_04]: I think they're doing okay. [SPEAKER_04]: They're doing pretty well.

46:23 [SPEAKER_04]: They seem agile and they're being able to respond to where the business is. [SPEAKER_04]: They're definitely not hanging around wherever is not working for them and that is key. [SPEAKER_04]: Don't try to fool something that's not going to work because that's where the other low-cost, long-haul operators have gone past.

46:39 [SPEAKER_04]: know that they have a decent team, and as I said, I'm quite sure that as long as they maintain their agility and don't get too locked into flying to from Gatwick to Orlando every day, even throughout winter, which is just mean, not doable. [SPEAKER_04]: As long as they don't get caught up into that and they stay as agile as they are, then I think that's fine.

47:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I do think there is still an element [SPEAKER_04]: potential to quickly suffer operational disruption if just one aircraft and then got a bit too aircraft go tech which is very normal in aviation for aircraft to require ground time to be able to undergo maintenance but that puts these smaller airlines especially the low-cost long haul operators.

47:26 [SPEAKER_04]: under immense strain, and then just, you know, a couple of delays can trigger five days, six days of disruption, and then you're on wet lease or they've had to cancel and so on. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So in some a month, so it says a bit riskier, but on the whole, they are doing okay.

47:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, let's remember that they've given or not given, but they're leasing for aircraft to in to go. [SPEAKER_01]: So they only have eight, seven, eight, sevens. [SPEAKER_01]: And I find it fun that they're increasingly shifting away from these typical low-cost long-haul routes we've seen.

48:01 [SPEAKER_01]: London, New York, it's been done. [SPEAKER_01]: They're serving that, but, [SPEAKER_01]: At first it was very like everywhere to the US. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they're flying from a whole lot of places in Europe to Thailand. [SPEAKER_01]: For example, Manchester to Bangkok, which hasn't had direct flights before.

48:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They're also going into South Africa, for example, by flying from London to Cape Town. [SPEAKER_01]: I think those, it's smart to go into places that are very expensive to fly direct or there is a lot of low-cost demand like to Thailand. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's fun to see them try new things.

48:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you can discuss this topic more at length, Eden, in a future episode. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, would you like us long whole viability? [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Here we have a just a message from Stefano saying this morning he got the joy of the infamous A10 Gate at Heathrow.

48:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I did not know if I had to smile or cry. [SPEAKER_01]: Keep up the amazing job, guys. [SPEAKER_03]: You're welcome. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a friends at 10.05. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, glad to help you with that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see. [SPEAKER_01]: Also, we've got so many messages welcoming us back.

49:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So we appreciate that you guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: See that is asking us. [SPEAKER_01]: What do we think about the beef between American Airlines and United in Chicago right now? [SPEAKER_01]: It seems really entertaining, but I don't understand why it's happening. [SPEAKER_04]: He says, you want to across this more than I am.

49:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I am. [SPEAKER_01]: And what? [SPEAKER_01]: So to keep a very long story short, both of these airlines have a huge presence in Chicago. [SPEAKER_01]: They compete fiercely, but this is really their main Midwest hubs where they're flying [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people in from Longhall to connect to the Midwest but also it's a great stop over point from the east coast to the west coast and smaller places in the country so united has been doing incredibly well over over the past few years in Chicago.

50:02 [SPEAKER_01]: They're making a lot of money and [SPEAKER_01]: They have more and more gates because in the US, there's all types of weird systems to how gates are assigned. [SPEAKER_01]: But basically, United keeps, has kept winning more gates. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Chicago. [SPEAKER_01]: While American has struggled.

50:22 [SPEAKER_01]: They've allegedly been losing a lot of money in Chicago, according to United's CEO. [SPEAKER_01]: So who knows what's true? [SPEAKER_01]: But they've decided, you know what, this is an important hub for us. [SPEAKER_01]: So Americanists said, we're going to step it up. [SPEAKER_01]: We're putting in more frequencies.

50:39 [SPEAKER_01]: We're putting in more fights and the effort to get more gates back. [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to give you night at a run for its money. [SPEAKER_01]: We're not just going to let them take us here. [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is that American has let themselves slip, become less premium, while United is going more premium.

50:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So United really views themselves as top dog. [SPEAKER_01]: Ha, American, you can't touch us. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to win this. [SPEAKER_01]: You have no clue what you're up against. [SPEAKER_01]: But American, as the underdog, really all they can do is compete on price. [SPEAKER_01]: So they're in a tougher [SPEAKER_01]: they need to undercut United on price to win back that loyalty and show people.

51:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Flying with us is not that much worse than flying with United, so it's a race or a competition between one airline that is at least in that context, more premium. [SPEAKER_01]: and one that is less premium, but desperate to keep its position and not lose further ground in Chicago. [SPEAKER_01]: So we can expect to see some price wars, we can expect to see a bunch of interesting advertising campaigns coming out there.

51:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I know when you drive into O'Hare, United has massive billboards saying, want to give us a try instead of American, go to United.com slash switch and we'll match your status. [SPEAKER_01]: So, they're employing quite funny shady tactics, but as customers, I mean for now, it's a win, because availability of seats will go up, destinations will go up and pricing should go down, and the long-run one airline probably has to win, so we will keep an eye on that.

52:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've got no best airline that champions the consumer stay ahead exactly that's we're always pro consumer at the end of the day so on that note guys thank you for tuning in it was a lot of fun being back with the chatty episode I think and it was great as always lovely we will see next week same time same place and you can drop us any messages feedback or questions for our [SPEAKER_04]: via the Instagram at on air with Dan and Alex all one word.

52:54 [SPEAKER_04]: See you next week. [SPEAKER_04]: See you then on air. [SPEAKER_04]: Bye bye.