The Lufthansa Scandal That Could End in Criminal Charges

0:00 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Dan, and I'm Alex, and we'll come back to you on Air. [SPEAKER_04]: This is a weird one. [SPEAKER_04]: Our first time ever, I think, recording with a 12 hour time difference. [SPEAKER_01]: I know, we're determined to keep trying to make sure that our scheduling for the episode is as complex as ever.

0:20 [SPEAKER_01]: But to be honest, this one now where you are 12 hours ahead of me, this is easier than when either of us is like six hours or eight hours, especially you know. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not too bad, as long as you have the energy because I know what you're liking, it's the end of your day, it's the beginning of your mind, and you know, but I think you're going to be fine as plenty of juicy things we need to get going with.

0:41 [SPEAKER_01]: How is it going? [SPEAKER_04]: Where are you? [SPEAKER_04]: I am in one of my favorite places on earth, one of my favorite mine and Oscar's favorite places, New Zealand, far from everything and everyone exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: I like it. [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing, I can't believe you flew all the way there, just because it's the state of the union in the US.

1:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was like how can it get us far away as possible? [SPEAKER_04]: I was a joke. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I thought you were going to say that I flew all the way here for a cake on Emirates, which... [SPEAKER_04]: But I think that's not a joke, that's true. [SPEAKER_04]: So, I know that sounds absolutely insane, and I just want to give some context, [SPEAKER_04]: When are so we're here with some friends, they texted us less than a week ago asking the where should we go and we were like oh come to New Zealand we're going next week so they went okay and they booked flights and literally we're here five days later with us and when I told them that the reason we booked to come here when we decided to come here

1:46 [SPEAKER_04]: was because I had pre-checked the menus which Emirates post online and seen that February specifically was the month with my favorite airline dessert in the world, their pistachio and raspberry mousse cake with white chocolate on the side. [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, okay, we're going to New Zealand in February, not in January, not in December, February, and that's why.

2:11 [SPEAKER_04]: We ended up flying Emirates to New Zealand. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, did. [SPEAKER_01]: So just to ensure that you this is not kind of Interrupted in that incorrect way or perhaps people think that this is what you do right You just sit at home and you check airline menus and first class of business class and you say February looks good Let's go February others choose restaurants you choose ultra long-haul flights [SPEAKER_01]: You were planning on going to New Zealand anyway, and then, excuse me, the menu decision is ultimately what determined you're trying to go now, right?

2:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I, and exactly, we were going to, so when I got a million subscribers last year, when I finally reached that, I've thrown those 16 years on YouTube, right? [SPEAKER_04]: All screen I had already decided beforehand are reward is going to be to do the world's longest first-class flight, which is Dubai to Auckland on Emirates 838.

3:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So we knew it was going to be expensive, but finally when I got around to book it, which wasn't until, I guess, November, I had been checking the menus the whole time. [SPEAKER_04]: and then I realized, never mind, this fight is not even remotely cheap. [SPEAKER_04]: So this is not just going to be some enjoyment, flight, celebration, flight, no, we need to make a video and we better plan it to make it as epic as possible because this is only going to happen once.

3:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So then, so this is not your usual kind of savvy approach with miles and points and so on. [SPEAKER_04]: No, I mean, I did use my own miles and points, and I still saved about 50%. [SPEAKER_04]: But 50% off the world's longest first-class flight and first-class is still extremely expensive, the most expensive, ever pay, exactly.

3:57 [SPEAKER_04]: So we basically, I guess you could say, bought the most expensive cake in history because that's the reason we chose to do this. [SPEAKER_04]: But it's a funny year. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, YouTube title. [SPEAKER_04]: It's literally, I wonder if my friends were saying am I the first person in the history of aviation to book my flight decide when to go solely based on the desert, on the flight that I'm taking.

4:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know if you're aware that this is the podcast and not your therapist, but I would say that you are in good company here because at least the list is going to, I guess, admire the uniqueness of the intention of booking, I mean, it's true that you knew you were going to do this flight, you knew that it's likely to be kind of once in a lifetime, especially because of the duration of the length.

4:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So why not go when you know that the menu is going to be excellent, not least because you are vegan, therefore, it really matters and for so many airlines, plant-based cuisine is not up there, you know, I think it's like 99% of airlines with Emirates is really rare in that scenario. [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's just making behind, you know, the thinking behind your decision making rather, [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's sound.

5:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can I get that for you. [SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm more amazed at before you go on is is the screenshots of the group chat That Oscar had uploaded on Instagram. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you were discussing with friends. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah So we're going to New Zealand in a week because that come and the response is like, okay, I was I'm the pride like what?

5:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Who's group chat is this? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I get it, you know, in aviation, and especially maybe intra-European with quite blessed with, you know, frequencies and love affairs to say, shall we go here this weekend? [SPEAKER_01]: But New Zealand has to talk to us. [SPEAKER_01]: I reply, saying, what group chat?

5:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Who are these people? [SPEAKER_04]: So these people are Claire and Peter, our friends who travel full time. [SPEAKER_04]: So I guess that's how it can happen. [SPEAKER_04]: You have to be a full time traveler in order to make it work right on a few days notice. [SPEAKER_04]: But this is the first time anything like this has happened to us.

6:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just [SPEAKER_04]: So funny to think that we're literally the furthest place from anywhere in the world and Someone can join on a few days notice, but we love it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was I'm hungry. [SPEAKER_01]: I was so far that as I said that was you know group chat coast.

6:37 [SPEAKER_01]: There's that [SPEAKER_01]: trained isn't it about trips making it out of the group chat as you know chat gone on for about six to 12 months and not with you guys blind me you know but one message one reply and there you are in the sheep but i think everyone will relate to and i relate to this with you because we keep saying [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we need to do something, we need to do something, we want to do something, but like at the end of the day, it's almost easiest to just plan something a few days before because if you're like, that's not always how we've ended up doing it, isn't it?

7:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you and I have gone somewhere or have met up anywhere, it's always last minute because it's just so much better for us both to know that, yes, this weekend, we are free or yes, on Tuesday, we are free. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: God help either of us trying to understand if we are free or not in three weeks.

7:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's impossible. [SPEAKER_04]: And that, I mean, so that's the thing, right? [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't have a predictable job, whatever it may be, if the hours are unpredictable or the workload, then you don't want to plan things for an advance. [SPEAKER_04]: So, if you know that on Saturday, in one week forward, you don't have that much to do.

7:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Then it's like the perfect time to be like, okay, let's do something on Saturday instead of let's do something on Saturday in six months Not gonna happen. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: We're we're very in mind there, but I think most you know that people need It's funny. [SPEAKER_01]: I often speak to maybe relatives or friends of friends who [SPEAKER_01]: who bring up this subject and have said, particularly maybe older relatives, who have said that when they, when they, you know, for the first time drop this idea in their head that, oh, no, it needs planning, and actually doesn't need planning, and you can just go, [SPEAKER_01]: They then feel so confident and brave after and realize what were they waiting for the whole time?

8:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did they associate it that if they are going to that has to be in six weeks minimum because it's crazy Do you know just go if you know your free and you can and everything works out that you know Yes, it's in a few days, but still it looks like it could work [SPEAKER_01]: do it. [SPEAKER_01]: You won't regret it.

8:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: And it also, it also helps you from overthinking, because I'm a huge overthinking, when it comes to trip planning. [SPEAKER_04]: So I'll decide on something, but then I'll start doubting it. [SPEAKER_04]: If I have too much time, like, hmm, should we really do that?

8:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Should I change that versus if you book it last minute? [SPEAKER_01]: Do we really want to hang out with Alex in the [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: That's how to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: So guys, if you want to travel with us, you know, what you need to do is text us on Saturday, I am in Taiwan, want to come way more likely to happen than anything else, whether it's an event or something else, it's always easiest that way.

9:29 [SPEAKER_04]: I just have to say one more thing about that flight, taking a flight that long. [SPEAKER_04]: This is my second longest flight I've ever taken besides New York to Singapore, direct on Singapore Airlines. [SPEAKER_04]: I realized that even in first thoughts, whatever the flight [SPEAKER_04]: I do not appreciate having to try to sleep on a plane like it's just a waste of time and money, which is why I think for me, Middle Eastern Airlines for example are such a precious thing if you're taking a journey from let's say Europe to Asia and being able to take two six hour flights, I think for me will always be taking one 12 hour flight or one 18 hour flight [SPEAKER_04]: You can't, like, I just don't want to try to sleep on board.

10:20 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a waste of your time on the flight. [SPEAKER_04]: It's a waste of your money and pressure. [SPEAKER_04]: You won't sleep well. [SPEAKER_04]: Like I've said this before, even though world's best first-class beds on the world's best airlines are still less comfortable than a holiday and express bed.

10:36 [SPEAKER_04]: You can get a nicer bet at almost any hotel that on the world's best airlines in first class just because of the ergonomics and Requirements of that type of seat. [SPEAKER_04]: It has to recline in most cases where it's really hard in some cases. [SPEAKER_04]: So I just think like Don't oh you don't always have to go for the longest or the biggest that really I learned from this is not not better [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's incredibly valid because we've also spoken about, you can be, you can be provided with the most comfortable, the best, for example, first class in the business, but you're still on a triple seven.

11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So that still means the driest air ever. [SPEAKER_01]: It still means the washing sound. [SPEAKER_01]: It still means all those things that you actually can't remove from the passenger experience that make it very difficult. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, many scenarios to sleep. [SPEAKER_01]: having to feel like.

11:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's a 2 a.m. departure. [SPEAKER_01]: I learned this thing in the morning. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to sleep otherwise you've failed. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're absolutely dead. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's got to be done. [SPEAKER_01]: And then otherwise you will arrive and you'll be raggedy all day.

11:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Always in my opinion, avoid a red eye. [SPEAKER_04]: And I also have spoken to several people lately. [SPEAKER_01]: Red house is so convenient. [SPEAKER_04]: Well it's convenient until the next day when your day is basically ruined because you've slept three hours of so-so sleep and then you have to push through it and then you're you take several nights to catch up on sleep versus just take an early morning flight or an evening flight to sort of have the main part of the day free and then sleep at a hotel when you arrive.

12:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so pro that. [SPEAKER_04]: And that actually, wait, this is such a great transition into our first topic, Alex, which oh God, when we both read this, I think the shivers that went down our spines of absolute horror were pretty bad. [SPEAKER_01]: Unbelievable. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you may have seen this.

12:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It did make headlines across Europe and some, uh, also some US publications around with this as well. [SPEAKER_01]: shortly after we recorded last week, an incident now we learn multiple incidents took place at Munich involving liftoons of flights that were scheduled to fly to different destinations late at night that were delayed and essentially here's what has happened.

13:13 [SPEAKER_01]: The flights and the one that got the most publicity, but we now understand there were five in total, but the one that the most publicity was the flight from Munich to Copenhagen, an A320 Neo Dan and I did live there to lift dancers first, a320 Neo over a decade ago. [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a European, you know, imagine if you haven't flown liftoons there and you're wondering what a 320 Neo looks like in your head right now, imagine what an easy jet aircraft looks like, what a Ryan air cabin looks like it in your head, you're picturing 3-3 right on either side.

13:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So this aircraft will suppose to depart at 930pm and arrive a little while later at 11, but that's not actually how. [SPEAKER_01]: things started to to to pan out. [SPEAKER_01]: So the aircraft was delayed to just before midnight. [SPEAKER_01]: And okay, you know, this happens especially at night time.

14:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the passengers were on board. [SPEAKER_01]: And every half an hour or so we understand that the crew updating them, that the flight was not going to be taking off as planned, not least, because Munich doesn't operate throughout the night. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a 24-hour airport in that sense.

14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: As with most European airports, they close at a certain time. [SPEAKER_01]: And so while the passengers were now on board this aircraft and the flight does ultimately consult what happens next typically, while they're waiting to be transportive back to the terminal. [SPEAKER_01]: So that didn't happen, and then 30 minutes later the crew provided an update to explain that that's not happening any time soon, and then another 30 minutes later still not happening.

14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And then at 2 a.m., the passengers on this flight, a full flight from Munich to Copenhagen, is now on the ground at Munich, is too clocking the morning, departure should have been hours ago, were informed by the crew. [SPEAKER_01]: that Munich Airport was in fact now closed, which would have been obvious to many of them, because there are no flights as I said throughout the night.

15:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But because the airport was now closed, that all of the staff, including bus drivers, to transport the aircraft, which was on a remote stand, back, all of the bus drivers that were transport the passengers back to the terminal, they had also gone home. [SPEAKER_01]: and that there were no other options to take passengers from the A through 20 to the terminal.

15:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They went as far as explaining that there wasn't even anyone in the terminal to be able to receive them, nor to re-accommodate them or to handle their consolation if they were taken back to the terminal. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's at this point at now approaching 3 a.m. [SPEAKER_01]: that the passengers were told they would not be able to leave the aircraft and in fact they would be spending the rest of the night on a remote stand on board they say 320 at Munich airport.

16:03 [SPEAKER_01]: This was the scenario for four or five other flights caught up in the same scenario where because of these rolling delays, Munich had shut up shop and left and the passengers were forced [SPEAKER_01]: on these tight European aircraft on a remote stand? [SPEAKER_01]: How could this have happened?

16:27 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's absolutely unthinkable. [SPEAKER_04]: I can't to think that all these people, okay, here comes the liftoffs of slander again, which always has to do with all of them themselves. [SPEAKER_04]: They really don't, but to think that [SPEAKER_04]: all the people who had to go home for the night and not give an S-H-I-H-I-T about hundreds of people stuck on planes is insane to think this manager and that's person's manager and that person's manager [SPEAKER_04]: And no one just being like, hmm, maybe we should try to solve that.

17:05 [SPEAKER_04]: The fact that someone in a higher position was not called to try to remedy this issue is crazy because this would be bad enough on a long-haul aircraft. [SPEAKER_04]: But these entry-or-opion aircraft are not made. [SPEAKER_04]: to spend the night on. [SPEAKER_04]: Rarely passengers have to do it when flying from the Middle East.

17:24 [SPEAKER_04]: For example, Cairo or Aman to Frankford and Munich. [SPEAKER_04]: We've spoken about lifetimes of planning to introduce a real business class seat for those routes, but needing first of all not knowing it's going to happen and then ending up on the aircraft overnight for so many hours. [SPEAKER_04]: is so beyond unacceptable and to think that Lufthansa is of course gonna do the bare minimum which is offering a minimum EU compensation which in my opinion does not remotely remedy what these passengers were put through is is so so crazy what would you do if you are on this flight Alex because I'm worried about what I would do if I was on this flight [SPEAKER_01]: Well, firstly, I mean, I was flicking through my head visually, the catalogue of people that I'm connected with on LinkedIn, who were a communicable, one of Europe's best apples and well, all quality content and just, yeah, but it is good for connections.

18:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I would always choose Munich over Frankfurt Paris and so on, and yet, [SPEAKER_01]: They were tucked up in bed and blissfully unaware of all these passengers that through no fault of their own, they had not diverged in from elsewhere, they had started their journey from Munich, they were taken to the aircraft against their own will because they feel that the flight was going to take off, and then told, oh everyone's gone home now so you're going to spend the night there, it's insane, this is an airport that accommodates [SPEAKER_01]: 40 to 50 million passengers per year and there is no plan for one bus driver who's on call perhaps at home 20 minutes away who can't come in to return the passengers back to the terminal.

19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: This is I mean that this this this this is not something that we are exaggerating let me just run remind or just add this little bit of context now which is that authorities are now investigating whether this incident will in fact result in criminal charges. [SPEAKER_01]: and a spokesperson for the Upper Bavaria North Police Headquarters confirmed to German media that they are exploring the event which is currently being assessed by the public prosecutor's office.

19:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They say that although this is standard procedure, at this time, they know that where Lufthansa had previously focused on this specific flight that we were talking about, actually it was worse. [SPEAKER_01]: And as I say, there were five flights in total that were affected in the same call-to-up in the same night flight ban, which was why the aircraft were denied takeoff clearance and so on.

20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: The airport explained that the reason passengers had to stay on board was because of communication breakdown and it was the late hour and so on and because services are so severely limited. [SPEAKER_01]: But they said that there was no danger to passengers at any time and passengers were provided care for.

20:18 [SPEAKER_04]: What are they talking about? [SPEAKER_04]: Ridiculous. [SPEAKER_04]: There is another group. [SPEAKER_04]: This is scheduled to be like a one hour and 20 minute flight. [SPEAKER_04]: There's not enough drink, like water and food on that type of flight. [SPEAKER_04]: There are elderly people who can't sleep.

20:37 [SPEAKER_04]: No one can sleep on Lufthansa's ironing board. [SPEAKER_04]: Enter European seats with no headrests, no recline. [SPEAKER_04]: It's literally worse than sitting on any type of chair, basically. [SPEAKER_04]: elderly people could get back problems that won't go away because they're sitting there all night people in business are not much better off people with kids are struggling through the night in the situation some people need medications which they haven't accounted on needing because they're staying overnight on the plane and when I first read this when it was only the story of Copenic and I thought [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, of course, it's very Scandinavian to not cause an uproar and not demand that the door be opened, you know, because in a lot of other parts of the world, I think that would happen, but it's still just wild that no one did that and that they ended up spending the night because

21:30 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a few tricks you can employ in situations like that to ensure that you get to get off the plane for one reason or another, not least in a lot of situations people call the police, saying there'd be a detainment against her. [SPEAKER_01]: But before we go into that, and this would be the next year.

21:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just pick apart when Lufthansa said they cared for passengers quote with on-board comfort items, food and beverages. [SPEAKER_01]: This is understandably being kind of, this is being revealed to be a complete lie. [SPEAKER_01]: We know that Lufthansa short-haul flights, especially a hop to Copenhagen just an hour away, have no such items anymore.

22:08 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, they don't have pillows on board, or no. [SPEAKER_01]: that you're getting on the hour flight in a economy, for example. [SPEAKER_01]: So pack a pretzels or whatever, and that's that. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like they prepared this aircraft for an overnight service, because this aircraft doesn't fly over night services.

22:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's literally the alternative to a train. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just an hour hot. [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine, and I would encourage any passengers who are caught up in any of these five aircraft scenarios to lie up because this is something quite unprecedented, and now let's go into as you said, what could passengers have done?

22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: What would all you have done, I dread to think? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, seriously, the my concern is that calling the police in Germany might not have resulted in anything. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have experience with that, but obviously you can call the police and say you're being unwillingly detained.

23:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I question what would happen in that case and how fast it would happen. [SPEAKER_04]: That's my problem. [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think about calling the police? [SPEAKER_01]: Well this is an interesting one because previously in many scenarios where passengers have been kept on the aircraft against their will, passengers have called the police in different jurisdictions in different countries and the police have intervened.

23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: They have kind of demanded that they are able to board the aircraft via stairs, for example, and they address the situation [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's less air travel and more what's happening within the jurisdiction of where the airport is, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So, in this scenario, would I have called the police?

24:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Would we have called the police? [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say we were both on board. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say we've mentioned it with our deaf people. [SPEAKER_01]: We were both on board. [SPEAKER_04]: We were both on board. [SPEAKER_01]: If we're goodness, the scenario is running through my head.

24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I would, would we have called the police? [SPEAKER_01]: I would have said yes. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, no, no, one would have been called the police. [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [SPEAKER_04]: or I call it we would have been on the phone to lift answer as well there's no I would have been waking up anyone with what lift answer but but everyone would have their phone on do not disturb and wouldn't pick up is my assumption so then what like the airport at the all of Germany in a state of D&D yes I mean at midnight or so on a weekday I don't think anyone would pick up

25:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, then you threaten to call the police if nothing has done the next step would be to call the police and see how that goes. [SPEAKER_04]: But if that is unsuccessful, then what? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now it would depend on how the dialogue, how the communication was going with the flight crew and the cabin crew, because as we would have been highlighting, to be kept, [SPEAKER_01]: we would not accept to be kept on board overnight against that will because they can't find anyone to get to get a passenger off.

25:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's at that scenario where you and I if we were on the same aircraft or if it was just one of us we'd be communicating with each other assessing the big what if and we both know what we have thinking of when I said [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we should say it just like that, but it would be crossing our minds at that point because there's no way I would have accepted being held on an aircraft overnight for no, different if it's a security situation that was playing outside your captain there for your own board safety, different if it was because of you know it was physically impossible because [SPEAKER_01]: But because they're shrugging their shoulder thing, there is no bus driver.

26:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Have you found this hole to sleep? [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, that is, what are you joking? [SPEAKER_04]: That's not an excuse. [SPEAKER_01]: Also, that's where we should be at home, truly. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Not on your three, twenty new. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So, if that thing that will remain un...

26:49 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we were mentioned into we can say it was let's just be very clear that we're not talking about violence Okay, we're talking oh no nothing like that when talking so The first part of the safety point Or where if you happen to be so into the economy seats with the most legroom for example There is technically a door there right [SPEAKER_04]: I think around 2am, around 2am, I start fantasizing about you know what I've always wondered what it's like to open one of these you know.

27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is that historically, let's talk historically, historically in these scenarios where without any proper justification such as an operational shit show like what this happened, what I got up and here. [SPEAKER_01]: Where that has taken place and then a passenger has been denied Being able to disembark to leave the aircraft and as you see they could have legitimate reasons, right?

27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: They might be feeling unwell suddenly they didn't plan to spend the night on your old whatever single are and so on [SPEAKER_01]: Passengers historically in many scenarios have then opened the emergency exit and some of them have even disembarked via the slides in less than Oreo. [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds divine.

28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Which we don't endorse. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see a desperation for the, you know, the desperate situation that they are that they're putting. [SPEAKER_01]: The, [SPEAKER_01]: I think Lufthansa got quite lucky in these scenarios. [SPEAKER_01]: There are no videos of shouting that are tough.

28:32 [SPEAKER_01]: There are no videos of confrontations with crew or a passenger saying, we're going to get off. [SPEAKER_01]: This type of thing happens when right in air today, the flight for an hour. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's coming back from Ibiza. [SPEAKER_01]: And the passengers are like, we're getting off.

28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And they go towards the exit, which is, whoa, whoa, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: But for Lufthansa to have been putting their passengers through this, and none of that to have served as a social media, God knows the demographic on board. [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps it was an elderly flight. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe everyone was coming back from a cruise.

29:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure. [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, they definitely got lucky in that sense. [SPEAKER_04]: Again, what I thought when I saw Copenhagen was like, okay, yeah, these many of the people on these flights might not be the craziest types of people who would even start yelling in a situation like this, where I would certainly start being very upset, but I still think that wherever you're from, even if it was Japanese people, the most well-behaved people we can think of, [SPEAKER_04]: everyone should raise their voice because it's not okay and as I said earlier I just know the lifetimes is not going to make anything right for people they're not going to adequately give them what they deserve after and we're dealing with this.

29:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to hear from a passenger who was on board. [SPEAKER_01]: We have to find a passenger who was on board to better understand because, for example, again, I mean, mentioning when most recent liftoons are flat from Munich was just a couple of weeks ago, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And if the crew behaving the same way that, for example, if they're at the front kind of closing the curtain and gossiping amongst themselves in the forward galley, I would be furious.

30:16 [SPEAKER_01]: If communication wasn't [SPEAKER_01]: crystal clear, or they were simply not coming out with the reality that the passengers were going to be. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's maybe they were trickle fed info, which is why they didn't actually realise they were going to be there for the whole night, but the reporting suggests that they were told this and about 2 a.m. it became solid enough for them to declare, look, you're going to be on board for the night.

30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand how 200 passengers then say, okay, yeah, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: parked if the aircraft was parked at the terminal and the aircraft was connected to the terminal via a jet bridge, this would not have happened. [SPEAKER_04]: Another reason they would claim to not go to places that are buskits, buskits are hazardous people.

31:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Come on, let's not let it set a new fair and need to study that bus gate might be that you stay because it's tarmac because we should also say that actually the master country of leaving people on planes forever is the US and there it's because they're waiting for a jet way because they don't have bus gates so people are sometimes waiting for four or five hours because there's no jetways so it's a bit of a double edge storage sometimes.

31:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, of course, what would you have, I mean, the, just again, thinking about you being on board, if you were alone in your determination to state how wrong this was, and the other passengers were seemingly kind of quiet, just look, I'm sure they'll get us off in an hour or two, or the, well, we've already been over two hours, what's another two hours?

31:58 [SPEAKER_01]: How would you have, [SPEAKER_01]: How would you have been with that? [SPEAKER_04]: I think it would have made me even crazier because I'd be like no When else is talking up, then it's my responsibility I'm gonna save these people who don't know better versus other people are acting crazy I'd more like egg them on and be like yeah, yeah, you should open that door I think I would I would have been contacting every airline CEO in my contact book [SPEAKER_01]: Just to all the global airlines CEOs and begging them to to wake up, cast and sport and remind him of what's happening down the road in Munich.

32:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: When I was in Munich two weeks ago, we parked and a bus picked us up from a remote stand and transported us to the terminal for a flight connection and dropped us in this part of the terminal, which I'm not sure what it's known as, this [SPEAKER_01]: where we should have been going through security in their possible control and then up into to partchains into the transit area.

33:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And the bus door opens and we're disembark the bus and the bus leaves and we go through the open door. [SPEAKER_01]: And in front of us we can see a security channel and all the doors are closed. [SPEAKER_01]: and there's nobody there and it's a ghost town. [SPEAKER_01]: Then we went behind us, the doors that we descended, they're also now closed.

33:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So now we're in this glass square kind of area with nothing, close over forward, nor back, and a couple of police officers came off the 10 minutes. [SPEAKER_01]: They walked past quickly. [SPEAKER_01]: and they gave us a funny look and said, well, what are you guys doing here? [SPEAKER_01]: We've just come off of this, he said, well, if I did, if you come off of where are you trying to get to, he was like, oh, okay, I'll make a call.

33:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And we were there for quite a while and then eventually someone watered down from the far side, we could see through the glass and the whole door was like, yeah, I was like, hi, oh, okay, come through and it was, you know, no, kind of, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know of course all the jokes about German efficiency of while we're standing there for almost 25 minutes and Yeah, it says if you know international airport passenger arrivals connecting what yeah, what do you know how is that?

34:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not supposed to happen. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah, it isn't you know, I I could see how [SPEAKER_01]: with a German airport and a German operator like Lufthansa, this kind of thing could happen. [SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time it's hilarious because it flies in the face of everything that the global reputation of German efficiency kind of promotes.

34:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It flies against all of that because [SPEAKER_01]: Again, if this was a British carrier, for example, if BA let's let's not even say it was a local man God forbid it was jet to a Ryan air, right, but if it was BA, I don't think PA passengers would have accepted that either So I don't understand Through the night at Heathrow and not kick off.

34:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It would have been someone would have been literally live to to sky news You know on FaceTime True call them you know I don't understand how we should go to the media [SPEAKER_01]: How this, at Lufthansa, got very, very lucky with no massive media attention on this. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

35:23 [SPEAKER_04]: I, it makes me think of, was a 2023, my year of being cursed at Heathrow. [SPEAKER_04]: I guess was 2023 to 2024. [SPEAKER_04]: But when we landed on that flight from Doha on BA, [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't even remember now why it took us hours to get a gate. [SPEAKER_04]: And then when we were out of gate, there was no bus.

35:45 [SPEAKER_04]: And everyone was in uproar. [SPEAKER_04]: Keep in mind we're on a comfortable 177-10. [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone was like, this is a disgrace. [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone's yelling. [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, you know, that's the energy that these passengers needed times 10. [SPEAKER_04]: But again, we don't know what it was like.

36:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm having visions. [SPEAKER_01]: I think visions of you showing the passengers on the liftox of like, this is how you should be reacting. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: I have my American side would get to come out. [SPEAKER_04]: But on that note, you know, I, my thoughts are with these people who had to suffer overnight in those conditions.

36:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: My hope is that, of course. [SPEAKER_04]: And at the same time, we have to do something about it. [SPEAKER_01]: we have question marks as to how you guys like that's why I want to talk to a passenger how did they just accept and suffer yeah you know we can't understand that there wasn't one passenger who was absolutely against and realising [SPEAKER_01]: This is potentially unlawful activity, which is why it's now sitting with the prosecutors office.

36:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, this is a criminal assessment, and we will see how it plays out. [SPEAKER_01]: But speaking of criminals, speaking of criminals. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Mexico and cartels are also in the news as a relates to aviation. [SPEAKER_04]: And not in a very fun way, do you want to cover the basics and I'll go into the nitty gritty, I think.

37:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm sure that many have seen in the headlines following the death of one of the prominent leaders of a cartel, some violent retaliatory incidents have erupted all across Western Mexico and it has affected airport Guardalajara and Puerto Vallarta, Vallarta. [SPEAKER_01]: both directly affected chaos in airports as flights were delayed, cancelled, and was suspended with the little knowledge.

37:49 [SPEAKER_01]: See, see, see. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's one place that they won't keep the passengers on board overnight. [SPEAKER_01]: Just what's the fact that the one side of the one-fold side, one whole side of the country, just in complete cartel-related up-wall, and still the passengers were freely roaming around the terminal running from the house, but and it all things.

38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, many of us suspending services to [SPEAKER_01]: to a different part of Mexico because of the instability there. [SPEAKER_01]: You were there recently, what did you think when you saw all of this? [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly one month ago, Oscar and I were in Puerto Vallarta. [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, we were flying out of Puerto Vallarta today, one month ago.

38:31 [SPEAKER_04]: And the airport was chaos. [SPEAKER_04]: It was so full of people. [SPEAKER_04]: I've almost never seen a terminal, so overrun with capacity. [SPEAKER_04]: That's way more than it should be handling. [SPEAKER_04]: There are so many flights going in and out of the US and Canada two-part of Ayurveda [SPEAKER_04]: It is packed.

38:52 [SPEAKER_04]: The city is packed with tourists. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, really, I didn't expect that when we went there. [SPEAKER_04]: So seeing these headlines was really, it's really quite shocking because I personally don't think of Mexico as this type of place or something like this would happen. [SPEAKER_04]: I think a lot Mexico has so many tourists.

39:11 [SPEAKER_04]: So everyone is comfortable there, but in a situation like this, [SPEAKER_04]: it really opens your eyes to travel makes you vulnerable. [SPEAKER_04]: And when you remove airlines from the equation, there's no other way to get out because here you're by the ocean. [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like you're going to take a boat somewhere and the cartels were blocking ways out by land.

39:36 [SPEAKER_04]: So, [SPEAKER_04]: Airlines are such a vital tool for getting in and out. [SPEAKER_04]: We were looking at different TikToks and videos on the internet of people in Puerto Vallarta, but also some people whose planes literally did a go around as they were landing and returned to the US. [SPEAKER_04]: which I just think what a moment of insanity when you think how close you were at a being on the ground in this horrible situation caught up in the end of the and everything that was unfolding in real time.

40:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's really last minute. [SPEAKER_01]: What a, I mean, yeah, that's actually the definition of touch and go. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_04]: Truly. [SPEAKER_04]: yeah literally it's uh it's a crazy scenario to even envision of course it's our thoughts are with the locals the people who have been killed by the cartel as well but for such a tourist hub it's really sad because I think this is gonna have long uh long-standing implications for airlines for tourism [SPEAKER_04]: And as I said, it's such a busy market with so many flights going in and out.

40:48 [SPEAKER_04]: And I can't imagine after seeing this, although flights have already resumed. [SPEAKER_04]: So the suspension's didn't last for that long. [SPEAKER_04]: These types of things leave a lasting impression. [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know, you know, if even all of Mexico or even all of Central America is going to be impacted by what we've seen here.

41:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And worth highlighting that C, J, and G, which is the cartel involved in this situation, they are one of Mexico's most powerful and heavily armed criminal orgs and historically [SPEAKER_01]: when a senior leader of this cocktail has been targeted, retaliation has typically focused on infrastructure, high visibility infrastructure, meltdowns with airports, but also highways and public transport and so on.

41:41 [SPEAKER_01]: They become the immediate flashpoints because that they have the greatest, most visible disruption in a short space of time. [SPEAKER_01]: So it generates that maximum media attention when you've got passengers running through the terminal worried. [SPEAKER_01]: And the aviation implications of this are serious because although, as you say, this was pretty short lived in the greatest scheme of things, and operations were restored shortly after, and things are generally fine now.

42:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Aviation as we speak about all the time is so inherently exposed to just about everything and is so fragile in its reliance on the outside world functioning in a smooth way that this does now put an additional layer of risk to flights to places like Guadalajara and Porto Ayato as you said because these are big markets for business, [SPEAKER_01]: and also for leisure traffic with so many airlines, international airlines, charter, holiday, package carriers, for example, from Europe, from the UK and so on.

42:39 [SPEAKER_01]: These are big markets there. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little destabilising or very actually destabilising for this region and for those airports that would otherwise be hosting [SPEAKER_01]: thousands, tens of thousands of, or hundreds of thousands of passengers and visitors, especially in the northern hemisphere, winter and everyone kind of flocking to wherever there is some sun.

43:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's again one week we're talking about airspace politics and how vulnerable it runs out to that and the week later we're discussing current tells. [SPEAKER_01]: You get it all on on air. [SPEAKER_04]: Precisely. [SPEAKER_04]: So on that note, let's jump into Q&A. [SPEAKER_04]: So we have a message here from Matthew who says, hey guys, welcome back for the season.

43:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just finished up listening to the latest episode on the topic of air Canada ordering the 8351,000. [SPEAKER_04]: Well not much is known about the onboard products they're offering. [SPEAKER_04]: In a video they posted announcing the order they highlighted the 8351,000's capacity. [SPEAKER_04]: mentioning a kick carry up to 400 passengers.

43:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if that means our Canada will fall off in a Philippine Airlines decision to go 10 abreast in economy on the A350 because for a context, our Canada's triple 7300's kind of accommodate 400 [SPEAKER_04]: 250 passengers and pal Philippine Airlines managed to fit 382 passengers on the A350 due to the 10 abreast economy.

44:09 [SPEAKER_04]: So do we think our Canada will push through with the configuration Alex or, I mean, what's the general agenda? [SPEAKER_01]: This was, this was spotted, but what I will say is just a few weeks ago, I was at Abbas headquarters and we were, [SPEAKER_01]: standing in the mock-up of an A350, and we were discussing how years and years ago, standing in the same place with the same folks at Airbus, we were only talking about the low-cost leisure operators that were taking the tenet breast, meaning ten seats across in economy class, because the standard was the nine, three, three, three when you're looking at the cabin, right?

44:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were discussing and the Airbus execs were kind of smiling [SPEAKER_01]: at how the narrative has shifted in that where, typically, it was only a caribe, French B, these low-cost, or rather, if they were not low-cost, these leisure holiday driven airlines that are focused on increasing capacity, where it was only those airlines that were taking up the tight tenor breast.

45:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They were smiling, kind of incendiary to them, but they know now that this is the new standard. [SPEAKER_01]: Or at least the new standard that they were trying to get airlines on board with because once one leads with 10 of us, and if it's a prominent airline, for example, [SPEAKER_01]: Filipino and stepping into this area is great for our bus because they're able to now justify it or the other carousel will look.

45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's economics you're worried about, look at what Filipino elements are doing. [SPEAKER_01]: That messages are fine. [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone loves the 350, so they say they always need someone to make the first move that's not a low cost or a leisure carrier and they have that with Filipino elements.

45:55 [SPEAKER_01]: They used [SPEAKER_01]: some language with that that I started to pick up on maybe they are now framing this as more of a new standard and and this is what we've seen with Philippine Airlines and so [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps this is why it's mentioned in the Air Canada announcement. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Air Canada has has commit to being part of that new standard.

46:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I would find unusual for them to mention this if they have something that they have to implement. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that you if I'm if I'm comfortably ensuring three, three, because I'm Japan Airlines and I love economy class space for passengers. [SPEAKER_01]: The last thing I'm doing in a press release on ordering my first average 351,000 is highlighting how many seats I can cram into economy.

46:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So it does lead me to be suspicious. [SPEAKER_01]: We will look into it. [SPEAKER_01]: I love that I had listeners that bring this to her attention and that you're remaining hyper vigilant with these announcements. [SPEAKER_01]: This is great. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to you and that was good luck.

46:49 [SPEAKER_04]: I do love the attention to detail. [SPEAKER_04]: That's very like us. [SPEAKER_04]: And finally for today, we have a question from George. [SPEAKER_04]: Did you see the bad bunny chartered a quantist A380? [SPEAKER_04]: And we actually wanted to talk about this. [SPEAKER_04]: So he says goals.

47:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't often see a Threaty's receive charter bookings because they are extremely extremely expensive, highly complex white elephant aircraft bless them and they require so much TLC that it's just operationally incredibly difficult and incredibly expensive it will cost millions just for [SPEAKER_01]: And so pretty remarkable, that bad bunny, Benito himself, had used a Quantas A380 to move the show from South America to Australia to Sydney, with Hunters receiving this as the special charter operator that they can sometimes be if the price is right.

47:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, just really interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: But let's talk about what's interesting here is that obviously South America to Australia and New Zealand actually South America to anywhere across the Pacific is extremely poorly connected and there's very few options. [SPEAKER_04]: to fly.

48:19 [SPEAKER_04]: In this case, not only are there hundreds of people involved with a tour like this, the bad bunny is doing, but there is so much equipment. [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes you need to literally get a ship to take things across oceans. [SPEAKER_04]: But in this case, I think he had just a week between shows in Sao Paulo and then in Sydney there are no direct flights between those cities.

48:44 [SPEAKER_04]: So what do you do? [SPEAKER_04]: some of the local airlines, especially in this case. [SPEAKER_01]: You left the spirit of Australia. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, where you can get the biggest possible plane, the A3D itself, and fly it to you in Sappalo, and then have a fly you back to Sydney, which they say this would probably cost around a million dollars, which I think sounds like an accurate estimate.

49:07 [SPEAKER_04]: incredibly expensive but also so incredibly epic and the fact that the aircraft was quite full there were about 220 passengers plus I imagine a ton of equipment on board. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean that's what a cool thing to have been a part of. [SPEAKER_04]: I just wish he'd invited us like where was our imitation you know.

49:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, what's also funny is it seems to be part of the deal. [SPEAKER_01]: Benito was escorted from the aircraft by Clonter staff. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you see that? [SPEAKER_01]: So that was Clonter's first indication. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So there are videos of Bad Bunny walking through arrivals at Sydney Airport and there are fans of course and he has some smiling Clonter staff next to him.

49:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So Clonters would definitely delight it that they had been chosen for this charter. [SPEAKER_01]: And what a mammoth expense because don't forget this aircraft had to fly to [SPEAKER_01]: fly to South America just to pick them up. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is not a one-way thing. [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about chartering an egg and an iterative for over 30 hours of flying is significant.

50:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, we've spoken about this before. [SPEAKER_01]: This is how aviation plays its role in ensuring the world goes around and a similar complexity and of that scale is how one formula, one moves from one destiny to another within the same week. [SPEAKER_01]: They love it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they do that through 50s from Vegas to Doha, when the Vegas F1 finishes and then it goes to Doha.

50:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's phenomenal. [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, really cool. [SPEAKER_01]: Great. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, look, enjoy New Zealand. [SPEAKER_01]: Have an amazing rest of your time there. [SPEAKER_01]: Love that you got it out of the group chat within three minutes of suggesting it. [SPEAKER_01]: And we will aspire to have that.

50:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And let's regroup next week. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and let us all, everyone listening to this be grateful that we are not spending the night stuck on a lifetons at a 320 with ironing board seats. [SPEAKER_04]: We can all go to bed since this bedtime for me now, we can all go to bed appreciating that fact.

51:06 [SPEAKER_04]: It really made me, no, I know I'll sleep better just thinking about it. [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I wish you sweet dreams of visualizing everything you would have done. [SPEAKER_01]: Had you and I been on board together. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're in for a vivid night. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and please, guys, send in what you would have done.

51:24 [SPEAKER_04]: We'd appreciate to read that next week when we see you on air. [SPEAKER_04]: Bye-bye. [SPEAKER_04]: See you later.