The State of Aviation Right Now: Q&A Episode

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and welcome back to on air where we are joining you after the most unhinged conversation off recording. [SPEAKER_00]: So now it's time to behave. [SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing Alex? [SPEAKER_01]: You see on my side everything was, you know, sharp, appropriate, you know, podcast ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just this guy. [SPEAKER_01]: If you guys could only hear, you know, that the trouble that was just happened. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I put it down to the fact that your raggedy, I gather from some kind of red eye, some raggedy red eye, like I believe you are fresh from, I'm good to answer your question.

[SPEAKER_01]: How are you? [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening there? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we've spoken a lot about Red Eyes on this podcast and I think anyone who's listened to a few episodes knows that I avoid Red Eyes like the plague actually until like December 2025. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I'd taken a Red Eye in years because I always always always avoided that every cost.

[SPEAKER_00]: but this year it's just been unavoidable. [SPEAKER_00]: So I just flew transit lane tick via lovely Iceland on Iceland air, which is so fun and theory, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Until you realize, okay it's but I guess the last time I did that via Iceland was like 2017. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was 20 years old.

[SPEAKER_00]: But taking a five hour red eye, where you first, you know, you get a meal which is served over an hour after take off. [SPEAKER_00]: This, they wake you up with like screaming announcements, half an hour for landing. [SPEAKER_00]: So in the end, what time is this? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, for example, what time is the departure?

[SPEAKER_00]: How the red eye was looking? [SPEAKER_00]: 8pm lands at 6am in Reconc. [SPEAKER_00]: So, we landed at 5am because we were pretty early, so on that flight I got two hours of sleep. [SPEAKER_00]: The next flight to Europe is about two and a half hours, so after the meal service you have basically 45 minutes left of sleep.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think I'm running on about three hours of sleep, which makes me realize as much as I think Iceland air is a really cool concept. [SPEAKER_00]: It is probably the most unhealthy, unsustainable way to fly across the Atlantic because any other way of connecting is better to just get one longer stretch on a plane than getting up at 2 a.m. on my body clock is like now we're landing and you're connecting flights what I've been such a mess all day after that.

[SPEAKER_01]: because those transatlantic flies are too short. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, especially the ones, for example, to cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam. [SPEAKER_01]: And so the fact that, for example, I always think about the flight that leaves Montreau around 730 pm, which is so early, and just after a little bit of sleep, you're landing, [SPEAKER_01]: sunny bright 7 a.m. and he throw and it's like it's just gone midnight on or you feel that way and so that's the fact that you would break that up with her fun idea of less connect halfway through that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know. [SPEAKER_01]: That's such a valid thing that it doesn't get nearly marketed enough because it's this you know one stop via Iceland, lower fairs, Icelandic hospitality. [SPEAKER_01]: The quirks have gone to somewhere that sounds like it's covered in ice, but actually it's very green.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, no, very, you were done. [SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean? [SPEAKER_01]: Blackhood. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, green in the summer months, see, well, well, well, actually, no, that's wrong, isn't it? [SPEAKER_01]: Because then it dries out, but green in general. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, occasionally, but, I mean, as I said, like, I love the idea, but the in practice, it's crazy, and I mean, at least when you fly between these places, the time difference is quite big, but it made me think of, [SPEAKER_00]: people, for example, are flying from Athens, or Istanbul on a red eye to India, let's say, through the Gulf.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the same concept, but the time difference is even smaller. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like it, what is it? [SPEAKER_00]: A two and a half hour time difference from Athens to India, and then you have these two really short flights of which one can often be a red eye. [SPEAKER_00]: and you land and it's like well am I just supposed to go about my day like everything's normal now and I'm completely destroyed I mean I'm I need my sleep and I I think you do too, but I think you're also a bit more resilient when it comes to lack of sleep [SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm a bit more resilient with red eyes versus you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand how so many airlines seem to have such a disrespect for people's need of sleep on a red eye. [SPEAKER_00]: We've spoken about this before as well. [SPEAKER_00]: The idea, I remember, is it Brussels Airlines where you had that flight where you didn't famously reserved something like as the flaps were going down for landing, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have a good memory and I believe that what, yes, that was Brussels Airlines coming back from Kigali in Rwanda.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they, I remember thinking they had really let us sleep on that flight. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know if that was standard procedure at the time, or if it was because the entire business class cabin was one delegation from Airbus. [SPEAKER_01]: It was all Airbus executives. [SPEAKER_01]: We were travelling back from our delivery.

[SPEAKER_01]: But genuinely, we were from what I considered to be on approach. [SPEAKER_01]: And they were still allowing that the service had not long started. [SPEAKER_01]: to maximize sleep time because again in the grand scheme of things that was quite a short night, especially by the time they served dinner on departure.

[SPEAKER_01]: For me that is way more of a struggle. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I can commit to the fact I won't wake up for breakfast. [SPEAKER_01]: I will deep sleep under the covers fully right up until they're tapping me saying we need to put the seat up because we're landing. [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine. [SPEAKER_01]: But if I haven't had dinner or I'm relying on that dinner, [SPEAKER_01]: I am like a drunk, falling asleep, just drunk on tiredness, waiting for them to serve on those airlines that just take forever on the radar flights to get that first dinner service done.

[SPEAKER_00]: What about you? [SPEAKER_00]: So, I hear what you're saying. [SPEAKER_00]: I can't sleep while there is meal service anyway, although I would often skip it. [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's so much noise in the cabin that there's no point in trying to sleep through it. [SPEAKER_00]: but it it's just like a really valuable thing is letting people sleep as long as possible as close to landing as possible because you know like there's so many flights where an hour for landing the pilot goes you know it's one am or two am here origin ladies and gentlemen we are now an hour out of here we will be starting our descent in 20 minutes and you're like what and the drawing isn't it yeah and it's so and then

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's all of the lights, did it? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it did. [SPEAKER_00]: And the irony is also that most of the world's best airlines are the ones that prepare the earliest, which I don't understand what the connection really is there, but in general, I feel that a lot of the airlines that tend to neglect the passenger experience a bit more at least let people sleep a bit longer, which on a red eye every minute is valuable.

[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of final point on this, there is an author who is a cabin crew for American Airlines, she's an author of a book that many in aviation will have read, and the book's name, I think, is cruising out to chewed, I think anyway, and she is quite known, she's always kind of sighted [SPEAKER_01]: for commentary on cabin crew related stories, she just absolutely bashed and trashed Americans A321XLR from a crew perspective.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said it was inefficient. [SPEAKER_01]: She said it was difficult. [SPEAKER_01]: The trays are tiny for the meals for economy class passengers that the first class that they've invested in is awkward. [SPEAKER_01]: the TV is constantly having to be swung back and forward and back and forward in order to access the tray table that the galley is a nightmare.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is no crew rest, of course. [SPEAKER_01]: She just went on this long rant this morning and I was reading it thinking that's so interesting because from a clean sheet kind of looking at the air through 21X a lot on paper, it's fantastic. [SPEAKER_01]: Americans cabin is already proving to be really kind of incompatible not just with passengers who are complaining about it and that it's tight and and it doesn't things don't flow and it's inefficient with the tiny eye or blah blah blah but also with the crew and if the crew dread or disliked the fact that they have been rosted on an American 321 XL, for example.

[SPEAKER_01]: that is not going to equal a decent passenger experience for those aboard because there's nothing worse for passengers if you're on an aircraft that the crew actively can you hate in terms of its lack of, you know, crew-friendlyness if that's at zero. [SPEAKER_00]: So, as your opinion changed, I mean we've been on air from us three years, how is your [SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes down to the cabin definition, and I still think that for airlines and for aviation and enabling lower fairs, for all of the 321 Neo family, which includes the LR and the XLR, is an absolute game changer, and I think it's a success in aviation from that perspective.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, there is a very real chance, and it's very easy for airlines [SPEAKER_01]: by not taking into account that it is categorically a smaller space that requires careful thought in the design, the customization, the layout to ensure not only that it is crew user friendly, but also that it is optimized for passengers to ensure there is some element of consistency, whether that passenger is in economy on a Boeing triple seven with the same airline, or on the 321XLR, and if there is, if those differences start to come, [SPEAKER_01]: Interforeersion starts coming to play and they start to get noticed suddenly they've just made this aircraft a pariah That's my thoughts on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Well said. [SPEAKER_00]: We are doing a full episode of Q&A today, right? [SPEAKER_01]: We are, and I believe we've kind of self started without any input, but let's jump straight into it. [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll start a question all the way from Alexandria, Alexandria in Virginia.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the place. [SPEAKER_01]: The question is from Idris. [SPEAKER_01]: I realize that. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, straight. [SPEAKER_01]: But. [SPEAKER_01]: So, so let me just start again. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a question from Idris in Alexandria, Virginia. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: asking about the best way to deal with the EU border delays like the EES situation that we did touch on the last week that left families stranded in Milan missing their flights to Manchester in a very world documented incident again because of these cues.

[SPEAKER_01]: So which airports are actually handling this okay and which are not is the general sentiment of interest is question and I'll just [SPEAKER_01]: EES is very real, it's very here at the moment, and it's that entry into Europe that now requires for non-Europeans, the submission of fingerprints, a photo, and so on, and that's taking time, and because of the stupid timing, i.e.

[SPEAKER_01]: summer, it's not working very well already, I sat in on a meeting yesterday where a group of our, uh, sorry, a sub group of airports were discussing [SPEAKER_01]: A letter that they are sending to the European Commission to say you guys need to count us out of this this summer and I believe there is a good chance that that could happen We've already seen some airports do this Athens have said they won't be doing it for British arrivals because they know that it just takes so much time and that's very generous of the great government to do that to the UK And maybe they're keeping in mind that half the country didn't vote for this rubbish So yeah, it's it's it's [SPEAKER_01]: it's difficult.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lisbon has been word documented as a bit of a nightmare. [SPEAKER_01]: What are you seeing EES wise? [SPEAKER_00]: The big problem here is I see it is that some airlines don't let you drop your bags, especially if you're first flying a short haul flight more than two hours before departure, because in general my advice would be, [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe now it's the time to show up early if you don't have an EU passport or as I saw in Copenhagen Maybe you need to show up early anyway because those e-gates can be out at any time, but in general I would say try to have more of a buffer the summer when you know your clearing passport control in Europe [SPEAKER_00]: But the airlines don't make it easy as I said and there have been stories about I think it was tap right Where people have missed their flights because of this two-hour rule and then standing in line forever and then tap won't even rebuk them So then they have to pay for entirely new ticket last minute, which is insane and Yeah, I mean there's really there's not much advice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the room is no helping the room is right about tap taking other playing TAP [SPEAKER_00]: Good advice. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is not really much good advice we can give besides if you can show up early. [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_01]: James is asking what our honest thoughts are on the American Islands and United Merger rumor and if we feel that it was a serious idea or it's just something to try to roll people up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this, this makes me want to immediately take a tangent to what is going on with spirit and with right on tier it's yeah, the US airline industry is really keeping us on our toes at the moment with so many potential curveballs, but I've been discussing with a lot of non aviation [SPEAKER_00]: enthusiasts the past week in the US.

[SPEAKER_00]: What does this mean if the US government were to bail out spirit airlines and then consequently own spirit airlines? [SPEAKER_00]: How does that work? [SPEAKER_00]: For all these other you know, American, United Delta that have been lobbying the government like crazy that are looking for preferential treatment and suddenly there's another airline [SPEAKER_00]: that gets swooped out and is suddenly the government's baby.

[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't know what to think about anything. [SPEAKER_00]: Going on in aviation in the US at the moment, but the one thing I do think is that this United American thing is still not going to happen. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just to set the scene for a potential, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, then let us buy JetBlue, or okay, you know, it's like you're offering something so preposterous and so stupidly, of course, that's not going to happen, and then maybe the administration will settle for, okay, then we'll just switch up JetBlue because they're about to go bankrupt or so sources say.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that, the spirit thing I think you'll spot on, I mean, why would Donald Trump [SPEAKER_01]: spirit and remember that Donald Trump has a record he's been hit before with airlines and trying to operate them and I won't go in detail but give that a Google search and you can imagine how that went.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that. [SPEAKER_01]: I also think there is again it's funny for me that this is happening at a time that the US is supposedly not in crisis [SPEAKER_01]: But much of the rest of the world is, I mean, mid-least an Asia right now, a very legitimate ongoing conflict. [SPEAKER_01]: There's war without resolution so far it's there's a jet fuel supply shortage globally Of course the jet fuel prices extremely high as we've touched on a lot now But but it's that part of the world the other part that that's actually Genuinely suffering and yeah, and me while the American Airlines is standing up and spirit You know we're on our way out jet blue we're about to go bankrupt you and we need it Yeah, it's very neat the presidency American looking at United like you like that Okay, it's

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's all a bit much. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Alaska rail lines, where do they sit in this and and perhaps they need to work on last year, that's strength. [SPEAKER_00]: They get in a good way to get in conversations, but they're oh, they're what they want to see me join the transatlantic joint venture.

[SPEAKER_01]: with one word with British airways and American, which I think would be fantastic because otherwise others are actively rallying the troops within one world to ensure that that can be supported because they want part of that JV because if they do enter that then it means that they profit show in essence they share passenger and revenue on the big transatlantic flows and remember listeners that the world's only billion dollar air route [SPEAKER_01]: is between New York and London and that that continues to be true today.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's incredibly lucrative that North America monopoly that these big carriers have. [SPEAKER_01]: These are the same carriers that cry about not having them monopoly in Southeast Asia. [SPEAKER_01]: Remember we spoke about that few episodes ago too. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a, yeah, it would, Alaska doesn't really have good odds of competing and being profitable on long haul without being part of a joint venture and the reason that I think American Airlines.

[SPEAKER_00]: Will be open to this and should be open to this is that they are by far the weakest of the U.S. Three when it comes to long haul. [SPEAKER_00]: They made some terrible decisions during in the beginning of the pandemic. [SPEAKER_00]: So now they're struggling to catch up Alaska ultimately does not have huge ambitions for long haul.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a few dozen routes of most. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think Alaska slots in there. [SPEAKER_00]: Now we've really gone on some tangents here. [SPEAKER_01]: American Airlines financials you know anything but healthy to be honest and it's is really the really on shaky ground in so many different areas and and so [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, the vulnerabilities of U.S. carriers is a very real thing right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps it's linked somehow with the closure of the straight of hope moves. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know potentially one one more interesting tidbit here, which I haven't read about this much in aviation news. [SPEAKER_00]: Ironically, Justin regular news that yeah out of all the US, which as we know is not really struggling with the lack of oil, [SPEAKER_00]: or jet fuel specifically for us, California actually imports a large part of their jet fuel from the Middle East because they decided not to import that a long time ago to start importing it from the south of the US.

[SPEAKER_00]: So of all states, [SPEAKER_00]: probably the most liberal state California is the one that could actually start suffering in the coming months as well with the World Cup coming up very shortly from a jet fuel shortage or a huge price hike as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps we should get Gavin Newsom on the podcast because he's a piece of podcast there and he's everywhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: Loki campaigning isn't he for some kind of presidency [SPEAKER_01]: A question from William is taking us now to the UK, William's asking, do we think that easy chat? [SPEAKER_01]: We'll ever introduce a real frequent fly program to replace what is currently easy chat plus. [SPEAKER_01]: And if we do think there will be an easy chat frequent fly program, what does that need to look like?

[SPEAKER_00]: it's this is fun because we spoke about this last year, what do you feel that there's been any movement on a potential acquisition, I guess, of easy jet by I.A.G. [SPEAKER_00]: because that's very relevant to this discussion. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's slow down and from what I hear it has slow down in terms of I.A.G.

[SPEAKER_01]: playing predator and looking at an easy jet because they are aggressively [SPEAKER_01]: TAP tap airport school. [SPEAKER_01]: There are aggressively pursuing tap and hoping that that goes through or that they are successful in what will be a very long journey to try to acquire tap. [SPEAKER_01]: From what I understand, the EasyJet potential acquisition has been put on the shelf, but that doesn't mean that other airline groups are not continuing to assess EasyJet, including [SPEAKER_01]: But, but again, I'm not hearing so much on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That conversation has sort of fallen off the radar a bit over the last few months. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's narrow in on the question from William about the frequent fly program. [SPEAKER_01]: I, as a teenager, was invited to easy jets, invitation only frequent fly program, because I used to fly them so much, that racking up the orange miles, the non-existent miles, because they're on any until today.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I always just think why is there not because they're so obviously benefits. [SPEAKER_01]: Arguably, there are great benefits for passengers on a low-cost carrier belonging to a frequent fly program, then those of legacy because low-cost everything is an extra, a seat is an extra, the bag is an extra, the priority boarding lane is extra and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yet you could extend all of this in wrapped up nicely in some kind of low-to-skim, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And it would be more meaningful. [SPEAKER_01]: then what the legacy car is offer so but but I do think that they need to do it but unfortunately I think we've seen this haven't we easy yet shifted direction they were fast becoming until the pandemic is yeah the the kind of they were taking all of BA's business travelers they had absorbed successfully all of monarch in the UK all of monarchs [SPEAKER_01]: second home owner travelers everyone going to Spain in Portugal all the golfers all the country clubbers all the all the premium leisure let's book tomorrow to go to southern Spain and you know they've got adult kids so they've got empty nesters this is a big market and that was half of the monarch fly all of them on a flight well those passengers easy jet were great sweeping them up

[SPEAKER_01]: decent young Airbus aircraft and offering things like speedy boarding or which included different extras and the guarantee of the cabin bag and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: All of this was under Dame Carolyn McCall, who is now the CEO of ITV, she's the boss of the UK TV network ITV a bit the biggest.

[SPEAKER_01]: And under her I think that was the direction of travel and it was excellent and then what followed [SPEAKER_01]: competing with Jet2 and Tui on holidays. [SPEAKER_01]: It's all about holidays, holidays, holidays rather than what they were previously. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the frequent flyer program makes less sense in this nothing beats a Jet2 holiday competition that easy Jet is fighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then it would if they were following the previous model. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, isn't it so interesting because this [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of takes my mind to the U.S. airline market, how airlines do not make money flying people there. [SPEAKER_00]: But historically, airlines in Europe have managed to be perfectly profitable selling tickets for flights without huge credit card programs and frequent foreign programs.

[SPEAKER_00]: So is this pivot toward holidays? [SPEAKER_00]: a way for easy jet to increase their revenues outside of, I mean, a hotel is not as costly to provide as a flight, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So the more parts of a trip that they can sell someone, the more areas there are to profit and the less volatile the prices are, for example, and the [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, definitely it's, you know, and Sylerys are all, and Sylerys is so important for airlines with with tiny margins like low cost carriers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's in on that side of things. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, it will have helped boost their revenue. [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, there was no need for them to then close up that flight only strategy that could have run, it could have run in parallel.

[SPEAKER_01]: with an expansion of what is now easy jet holidays and British always do this quite well British always is predominantly a main line airline that is transiting the world via Heathrow and that's where they make their money it's on those transit flows separate to that of course BA have BA holidays which they're really trying to push now and everyone that was caught up in the game over the last year trying to pursue [SPEAKER_01]: a gold membership of the BA club, the frequent fly program, were told clearly that if you want to get anywhere, you're going to have to start acknowledging and spending money on this concept called BA Holidays, which somebody tweeted me that it was a completely oxymoron.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were like British Airways holiday, so those that that phrase cancels each other. [SPEAKER_01]: For some other whole, they have nothing from British Airways. [SPEAKER_01]: Look, there's a bit tough, because they can be all right. [SPEAKER_01]: We've spoken about it, it's patchy, like any big legacy carrier.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, but on the whole day they were right, but yeah, so just it makes less sense with these yet. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just a quick story. [SPEAKER_00]: My close childhood friend had saved up points with her husband for years to take their honeymoon in BA first. [SPEAKER_00]: They signed up for the BA credit card to get a two for one.

[SPEAKER_00]: They took their flight in BA first last week, both of them spent the whole night [SPEAKER_01]: No, oh my god, my friend just my friend flew three days ago B.A. [SPEAKER_01]: First. [SPEAKER_00]: And then story. [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: Food poisoning. [SPEAKER_01]: Are you still talking?

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they've flown the same day, maybe that's now. [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_01]: This was what's what's today. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're recording this now Tuesday evening. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, this was not that. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is not relevant for the podcast, but let me have a look.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it is crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: This was on on Thursday, my friend flew. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there is a concern with the creeping rise of double catering that this, this gently worsens the risk of of something like food poisoning and it's a modest increase in risk, but it is because, for example, if the airline is serving, let's say prawns or a lobster because it's fast-class in this example.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it's double catering, that lobster was loaded like 20 hours [SPEAKER_01]: that the conditions that that lobster was and it's not literally a full lobster, it's, you know, just my pieces of lobster already kind of already ready to be, to be plated. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to hope that the conditions that that lobster was in.

[SPEAKER_01]: I keep saying that lobster as if the listeners are picturing like a lobster in the galley, like a live, like on a leash or something, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, anyway, the conditions that the food was kept in needs to be, you know, needs to be, needs to be all right, needs to be appropriate and in line with international food hygiene standards and IE.

[SPEAKER_01]: not having the temperature fall and then it will mop and then fall and it will mop or transferred from the forward galley to the rear galley or left out and the cabin door was open during the turn around, during the layover and then it kind of heated up a bit because you're in a warmer climate and then [SPEAKER_01]: the AC came on to call, all of that is a nightmare for food.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I do wonder what impact or if it has been studied, double catering as it's known, which is where airlines choose to cater for a variety of reasons. [SPEAKER_01]: They choose to cater for the return sector. [SPEAKER_01]: from the point of origin. [SPEAKER_01]: So if I'm double catering London to New York, for example, I am loading on all of the catering for the New York London return flight with a different set of crew.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it will stay in the aircraft ready to be served and open for the first time on that way back. [SPEAKER_01]: Some, let's say, as I said, like 11, 12. [SPEAKER_01]: 13 hours later. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not great. [SPEAKER_00]: No, I should mention my friend's flight was from London. [SPEAKER_00]: So at least it should have been fresh, but the funny thing is in general, I like the idea of return catering, like this concept of having food from the airlines hub because normally that food is a lot better for the airline.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's better. [SPEAKER_00]: than from the outstation airport. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a double edge sword. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it depends completely. [SPEAKER_00]: What you choose from the menu as well, that determines the risk. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you remember that when we flew back this time last year from Singapore to Dahha, where it's not double catering, it's not return catering as you just coined it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore the the mills were not loaded on in Dahha, but rather we were taking catering from Singapore, and it was not good surprisingly. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and Singapore is known for... [SPEAKER_01]: uh... foreign airlines to not be so great when it comes to on board catering uh... and we definitely experience that first hand because it wasn't even the crew embarrassed i know yet that's always a tough thing for the crew as well so what's yeah goodness our tangents today are i'm like what i don't even remember the question but you can tell we're recording this in the evening because we think we're at like dinner or like just having a night cap [SPEAKER_01]: Jack is asking us what's actually going on with rear air.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have 787 sitting around with bowing and the whole region in the Middle East is in turmoil. [SPEAKER_01]: Is this airline even still happening? [SPEAKER_01]: is what Jack is asking about. [SPEAKER_01]: Dan, read it as the, as the, as the, as the read a watcher of the podcast, what's happening?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're both read air watchers, but I know I just like to say you all things and pretend that I'm not. [SPEAKER_00]: I do. [SPEAKER_00]: I do that is very true. [SPEAKER_00]: I do find a funny how every few weeks now we're getting root announcements from read air. [SPEAKER_00]: Just a few days ago, I think there was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is launching Manchester, Madrid, and Jeddah as it's next fruits, and we're like, okay, that's great, but where can we fly you?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the big question, and we still don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know those announcements, single-handedly brainwash the consumers into thinking that that means that that means that our already being flown and these are huge news. [SPEAKER_01]: Because [SPEAKER_01]: very well, well established in the sector, message me about those new roots about that announcement.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, oh, have you seen real-derival so announced, XYZ? [SPEAKER_01]: adding to their destination listers that they're going to start flights there soon as well. [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, yeah, when they start flying, he said, yeah, when they start flying, there's roots. [SPEAKER_01]: As it no note, when they start flying in general, because they're still not flight, like, rear air is still not an up and running airline for the public in a meaningful way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was really surprised. [SPEAKER_01]: Then why have they announced that? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, as they know, this is not a question for me, but yes, but we're hopeful that they get going soon and and I mean they're timing for them. [SPEAKER_01]: The timing now, you know, the complexity and the challenge of what's going on in the region, the Middle East and the fact that there is still no clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: solution ahead. [SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to return to some kind of, is there going to be a return of violence? [SPEAKER_01]: God forbid, is there going to be a diplomatic breakthrough? [SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to open the straight of homoes with force with an international alliance, which then could lead to some kind of reaction?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's all incredibly uncertain at the moment. [SPEAKER_01]: What I will say is that this evening, we're recording this on Tuesday night ready for this to drop into your feeds, or wherever you are [SPEAKER_01]: uh, the price of oil is back up to the highest of the last three weeks because of developments today.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all a bit unclear and unfortunately, really, not only, not only are they caught up in this, but they're caught up in their Boeing delays as well. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why those aircraft are still sitting right at Boeing. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just to do with Boeing production, but it's Boeing suppliers.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the, um, cabin fitters. [SPEAKER_01]: It's the, uh, product and, and the [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hearing it is really, really slow, and that's been the case for a while. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, precisely, but I think well, there will be news soon enough. [SPEAKER_00]: Soon enough. [SPEAKER_01]: I have a question here from Greg Gore's in Prague, and forgive me if I have mispronounced, because there's a Z there and the third letter of the name, but he's basically saying that Dan's been complaining about Swiss.

[SPEAKER_01]: and should he be worried ahead of his flight with them to Hong Kong? [SPEAKER_01]: And separately, does anyone know if Hong Kong Express fly from Hong Kong to Fukuok? [SPEAKER_01]: So what do we think there? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, a great site, I don't know if we've spoken about it, but there's a site called flightconnections.com where you can check almost every route that exists.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you put in Hong Kong Airport as your origin, you can check where there are direct flights, so it's you that there are direct flights on Hong Kong Express to Foucouc. [SPEAKER_00]: Although, you probably don't want to fly home calling Express because I have heard horrible things that they weigh everyone's carry on and it just seems like you're going to say that they weigh everyone.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, that would be next level, but. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, for Swiss, I think, you know, we all know that I'm quite particular, I like to get a lot of value for my miles or my money and fly the absolute best when I have a choice and to help everyone else and to help everyone else and to help everyone else fly the absolute best because [SPEAKER_00]: if ten airlines are charging the same price, why choose one that gives you less.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that said, I think you, you always come and defend Swiss, which as someone who's flown Swiss more long haul recently, [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say that they're perfectly fine in terms of the loved tons of group. [SPEAKER_00]: They are definitely not the weakest link there, but I wouldn't be worried.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just wouldn't be especially, I wouldn't have too high expectations because odds are you might be a bit disappointed. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, arrogance is what bothers you as well, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know that they really think that good and it's like the sit down. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Take a seat. [SPEAKER_00]: Precisely, and that's why you have to love the likes of Finiar that are so humble They're just up there minding their own business doing minding their own business You're the best and you're just like hmm, but are you? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree actually with that sentiment and they do get especially when Swiss are like oh we're protecting us Swissness and it's you know, that's what they call it and it's all lovely and Swiss and then at the boarding gate.

[SPEAKER_01]: at Terminal 2 at Heathrow there, you know, with the luggage, it's like it's Hong Kong Express, as you just described this horrendous, genuinely, I feel anxious, and I'm like, I'm still in line, it's gold, I'm business close, I'm just like, you have to get ready to justify why is this cabbing bag going into the aircraft?

[SPEAKER_01]: that, by the way, has a new S-based cup in so can fit every single bag of every passenger, not that the gate agents care, and there's a whole reason why it's not because they personally don't care. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we've spoken before about how an airline talking itself up too much, or people talking in airline up too much, that to me, at least is very off-putting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel that air France is one of the best airlines in Europe, but the way that they also talk themselves up [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that because it also sets people's expectations wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: It's show that you expect something else and then it's like, you know, Instagram, V-reality moment where you bored and then you realise, oh goodness, the crew haven't acknowledged anyone and they're just gossiping in the forward galley.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Air France, Iberia, they've all got that in common, so. [SPEAKER_01]: But you're watching, you're right. [SPEAKER_00]: One thought I've had, because I've recorded a lot of European airline reviews the past month or so is I don't know about your impression, but the European airline market, there's always these peaks and valleys when it comes to the quality of different airlines and it's influenced by the financials in each region, but there was a long time where the US airlines were really [SPEAKER_00]: at the bottom of the thing is an Asian Airlines were really at the top.

[SPEAKER_00]: European Airlines, I would have for a very long time said, we're way better than US Airlines, way better than airlines from a lot of other regions, of course not the world's best, but now we're at this point where I think a lot of European Airlines hit rock bottom after COVID in terms of [SPEAKER_00]: quality on what they deliver, and we're finally seeing the start of some improvements, you know, new cabins, faster Wi-Fi, reinvesting to me things better, but do you feel that European Airlines are in this sort of book rock bottom state at the moment?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, many of them, yeah, and I do think it's still the after effects of the struggle recovery in 2022 after the pandemic and the volatility of the economy now globally in the oil price and the way that the workforce left and the generation that retired at once and that that code accelerated the retirement of [SPEAKER_01]: and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So things are still, you know, things have not fully, I mean, there's been immense profit and we're not really talking about financial performance because airlines have really bounced back in terms of financial performance, bounce back and beyond. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are some of the most profitable airline financial results ever over the last two years, but in terms of, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like as you say that they're all a bit battered right and and that not as a head as they used to be is the level playing field and just the rather the lack of level playing field it continues to shift right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I have the final question from, uh, let's see, from Matt. [SPEAKER_01]: What would you do more? [SPEAKER_01]: This one's really short. [SPEAKER_01]: This one is from Sean. [SPEAKER_01]: Sean says, uh, is extra legroom in economy actually worth paying for genuinely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think you may be biased with this because you're about eight foot. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the question is it depends on the price, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Because some airlines charge 20 dollars and some charge 400. [SPEAKER_00]: So ridiculous. [SPEAKER_00]: Who charges for $400?

[SPEAKER_00]: Name and shame them on the public. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean US carriers on their longest flights charge a ton I'm trying to think I've seen some people be able to be able to charge a ton on on on your whole if you have no status [SPEAKER_00]: Good. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I know. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is if it's an upgrade.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is a bit ridiculous because then you're looking at premium economy price territory. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, for an exit right. [SPEAKER_00]: I always try to think, you know, compare to the price of premium economy, if it's available. [SPEAKER_00]: And if that jump up to extra legroom seems like, [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe 50% of the price of upgrading to premium economy maximum then it might be worth considering if it's less than 50% Absolutely go for it, but if it's more than all the other benefits of upgrading to premium economy might make that a Better deal because remember a lot of extra legroom rows if we exclude US airlines from this and at he had to some extent [SPEAKER_00]: Most airlines are also bulkheads or emergency exits, which means you cannot lift the armrest.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if it's an empty flight, you've ended up paying more for your seat. [SPEAKER_00]: But then you're in the only row where you can't lay flat across three seats. [SPEAKER_00]: There's, you can't store things by your feet. [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes these acts are like, I can't say that you're traveling so low.

[SPEAKER_01]: accompanying someone's baby hopefully yeah that's true so you're right sometimes these premium chargeable extra legroom seats I actually come with a lot of drawbacks as well that are working yeah you know considering before going back considering worth looking into just seeing it's just flashing up on my screen now that Boeing and Copa Airlines of Panama have announced an order of [SPEAKER_01]: just seeing that come in there, which is a quite a big order under the agreement, Coper Airlines.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's 40 plus the options for 20 more, so up to 60. [SPEAKER_01]: And interesting again, the government represents tips that are there. [SPEAKER_01]: And because these is changed, as an innovation, how these deals are announced now, and it's always [SPEAKER_01]: kind of a state thing where they try to market as part of the relationship between the country of the airline customer, that government and the manufacturer, a bit American Boeing or European Airbus.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just come up with my screen there. [SPEAKER_01]: Last question from Matt, what do we think about airlines partnering with rail such as Eurostar in Sky Team? [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the Doyship and the DB network and Star Alliance is this the future or is it basically for show? [SPEAKER_01]: What do we think?

[SPEAKER_00]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever booked one of those tickets? [SPEAKER_01]: No, because I would feel it's messy, and I feel that if I was going to a desk because of a missed connection to a train or that the train was delayed or whatever, I just know that they would do, I just know that said, oh, well, you know, because you booked with their France, and you're going to have to call them, I feel it would be that, which is exactly what happens in aviation, where airlines [SPEAKER_01]: coach share into line partner with each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: They share their part of the JV. [SPEAKER_01]: They put each other's flight number on each other's flights and the moment something goes wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: British hours is like Iberia who and Iberia like who is Brit, you know, and it's the same. [SPEAKER_01]: So with trains, a whole different form of transport [SPEAKER_01]: I think, no, if I know that that gets me to my final destination, I would rather land in, for example, Paris.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then separately, time, my own, you know, manage my own time and no, okay, it's going to take me this time to get out, to get my bag, to get to the train station. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I will aim for the 1055 that I'll book via the train company. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll adopt the flexibility policy.

[SPEAKER_01]: with the train company, not rely on the airline to do it as one. [SPEAKER_01]: It would be messy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not meant to be, but I feel it would be. [SPEAKER_01]: What about you? [SPEAKER_00]: I do the exact same. [SPEAKER_00]: I often take trains, especially after a flight. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's more risky right before, but after.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it's always a separate ticket because, yeah, it just feels like you have more control, booking direct with the company that is operating it. [SPEAKER_00]: Normally, I won't cost anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: So, [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's my philosophy, but I think it's good that airlines offer more choice and the potential to sometimes really in points on trains like lifetons or earn points for taking a train.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the more I'm always for more options, it's always better. [SPEAKER_01]: And just remember that this whole concept of seamless air to rail, you know, single journey, it doesn't exist. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's no such thing as seamless in that scenario. [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean that it can't be easy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It can be. [SPEAKER_01]: And guess what, passengers have been doing this themselves for decades without that transaction going through the islands. [SPEAKER_01]: But. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as we travel in different ways, and especially European markets, to reduce the reliance on domestic flights, to ensure that it is easy, to ensure that you can sit a rail where you may have not even considered it, so they might be putting it in front of a passenger and saying, we can get you to this destination.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can get you with one connection, and the passenger's thinking, okay, great. [SPEAKER_01]: The second one is a train, and that may never have come into the head as an idea to the passenger. [SPEAKER_01]: It might be a light bulb moment, [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, our friends for letting me know that it's guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were the rest out. [SPEAKER_00]: What a wonderful inspiration maybe especially for Americans Never well never forget that time of Heathrow When going you remember when I was on the bus classic a 10 shout out and that got there was an American woman who was on the phone and she was like [SPEAKER_00]: can you believe I'm on a bus to my plane?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is this? [SPEAKER_00]: As she'd never been on a bus at an airport before, which is very typical for the US, but obviously the rest of the world does not always get a jackway. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, true, true. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, look, we managed to go through less than 50% of the questions, but it's because we want to give some full answers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll carry those questions across into next week's Q&A. [SPEAKER_01]: And with that, we will see you same time, same place, wherever you get on air with Dan and Alex, including Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and Beyond. [SPEAKER_01]: See you next week on Air Guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Bye-bye. [SPEAKER_01]: See you later.

The State of Aviation Right Now: Q&A Episode

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