We’re Back: Flydubai Incident, Houthi Strikes on Riyadh, Summer Travel Recap

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Dan, and I'm Alex, and a very warm welcome back to on with Dan and Alex a fresh new season begins today. [SPEAKER_01]: Dan, wherever you've been. [SPEAKER_00]: Everywhere, and the day we stopped recording, I was like, I'm out of here, I'm going across to the world, but you have also been a lot of places in one place in particular that annoyed me.

[SPEAKER_01]: that's so funny because so obviously you and I have been in touch throughout what was thankfully a lovely long summer and of course we have come back slightly later than the September promise and that was down to scheduling and a few things that we just [SPEAKER_01]: We had to make sure we're finalised before we jump back into the routine of the podcast, but first things first, amazing to be back.

[SPEAKER_01]: It does feel like kind of last night getting ready for a new town of school again, you know, kind of like discussing what will be, for all we be discussing and you know, where do we even begin with the atmosphere? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we just have wearing, do you have a new pair? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yes and yes and like you know fresh blazer out for the pod.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not in vision this week, but we might be very soon So we'll see there. [SPEAKER_01]: The funny part is is how I managed to make you have so much phomo while you were so [SPEAKER_01]: I, while I was in Greece, you were in New York. [SPEAKER_01]: That's correct. [SPEAKER_01]: Right earlier in the summer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then later as we approached September and the kind of the working month of September started, I found myself in New York for quite some time for work and you were in Greece. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, Roll Reversal and just by being in New York, which I considered to be one of the greatest cities on Earth, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, after I send you after I send you what I've been up to, you know, where are you and you're missing out maybe two hours after we had spent that's not that's not it you had like just landed you call me you have any of the hotel you're like, this is the greatest on earth and I'm laying there and I always feel that when I arrive to New York.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, you do, you do. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Right, let's not. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, yeah, I'm laying on a boat in a bay in Greece. [SPEAKER_00]: Children having the best day ever. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I hear from you, and I'm like, uh-oh, suddenly, yeah, you can play the message.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the video message I got from Dan. [SPEAKER_01]: Listen to this. [SPEAKER_00]: How am I here? [SPEAKER_00]: And you got me saying, uh, what shows in New York? [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it doesn't let just mean we had one heck of a phone call. [SPEAKER_01]: And a great catch-up because the boy was in paradise.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was literally googling, how do I get out of paradise into New York? [SPEAKER_01]: And I see that as a compliment to both myself and to New York City, the greatest city on earth. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's so true. [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to listen there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you were also there during the Noreeester, which for people who don't know was a very dramatized storm. [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone was like, this is going to wreck the city. [SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be masking solutions. [SPEAKER_00]: I was getting calls from relatives. [SPEAKER_00]: You were going to fly.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had nothing in my life, HUD, what a noise still was. [SPEAKER_01]: So, a Norrisster is a North Easter, which is, quote, a large scale, extra tropical cyclone in the western North Atlantic Ocean. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's funny for me to hear that called, family and relatives were checking in and talking to you about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never checked him with me about this bloody storm. [SPEAKER_00]: I know you add it under control. [SPEAKER_00]: This is with flight specifically, but I have yeah some relatives who are extremely scared of flying So my aunt's mom and I'm not like biologically related to her mom called me who I'm not really related to she's like She's English.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's like Danielle. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm supposed to fly to Poland on Sunday and I'm [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely terrified. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to call her for 10 minutes and explain jelly theory about turbulence, how that works, but the thing is crazy about how purpose you just said shoes flying on a Sunday, this storm, this Norris, I was so perfectly like [SPEAKER_01]: encapsulating a weekend.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the whole week, it's all anyone in the late part of the week. [SPEAKER_01]: People are, oh, well, you know, this weekend or you've got to stay, stay back this weekend. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was scheduled to fly that weekend and I didn't even thought, I'll just wait out. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be a JFK when there's 500 aircraft curing for, you know, in that scenario with disruption and bad weather.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which, which was the right idea, but I think the conclusion was that the disruption wasn't as bad as playing out. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I was just going to say it's funny because they're kind of politicians are damned if they're doing damned if they don't in this scenario. [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in the later part of the week, and I was in New York for quite a while. [SPEAKER_01]: the weather was lovely, it was typical kind of September late summer crossing over into Americans, the far right into into the fall into autumn and beautiful time of year and weather. [SPEAKER_01]: And even you were saying to me, this is the best time to be in New York, you know, for the month of September.

[SPEAKER_01]: So being there for quite some time. [SPEAKER_00]: May, did you not see it anyway? [SPEAKER_00]: No, I didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: If we go, okay, a few people who had said that to me, then they were saying September and May. [SPEAKER_01]: which I agree, but September may agree in so many places to be honest, that's true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, before I sidetrack, the when the conversation shifted to this Norris to this storm, the politicians are like so mumdani, the mayor. [SPEAKER_01]: And others, the governor, they were really trying to hammer into everyone in New York City and across New York State that this is going to be a serious one.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is going to be a big one, you need to be careful. [SPEAKER_01]: And the sunset, the night before the storm was out of this world. [SPEAKER_01]: monumental. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it went globally viral. [SPEAKER_01]: It was just breathtaking. [SPEAKER_01]: I was stood there. [SPEAKER_01]: It was really like, whoa.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they say that that tends to happen before. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a storm of this scale. [SPEAKER_01]: And then the storm came and went and didn't like it was much kind of less. [SPEAKER_01]: It was okay. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it wasn't really anything close to what they had been saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was going to be. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you get the inevitable. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know, they overexaggerated. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the storm. [SPEAKER_01]: This is just rain. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the storm. [SPEAKER_01]: This is just drizzle. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, but in the event that it wasn't, and it was severe, and they weren't warm enough, that's a resigning thing for politicians these days.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now, don't you feel they just have to get everyone ready? [SPEAKER_01]: And then if it turns out not to be that bad, it's like, well, you know, you're lucky, basically. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That is true. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, it one thing I want to tell everyone, which I told you during the storm, watching JFK on flight radar 24, especially in evenings in the summer.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I was there in August for three weeks, almost every night there was a thunderstorm at 6 p.m. [SPEAKER_00]: So at 6, Newark and JFK were just gridlock. [SPEAKER_00]: And as you were saying, you can see literally like a hundred planes, [SPEAKER_00]: Waiting in line with their engines on for take-off and why does this only happen in the US because the US Basically bus gates are no one exist in so if a flight is landing it has to be able to get into a gate So they push flights back and [SPEAKER_00]: Even if they know it's going to clog up the whole airport because they have to keep the flow of the gate going as much as possible and that's also why the U.S. is one of the only countries in the world where you'll land and then you might have to wait an hour on the apron before you can get to your gate because they're very, they assign you a gate and that's it.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to change it and all that. [SPEAKER_00]: So whenever there's a storm in New York, I sit on flight radar. [SPEAKER_00]: I look at it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I take a deep breath and sigh of relief that today, I don't know, a JFK. [SPEAKER_00]: I just go, wow, I'm in my hotel bed looking at this nightmare of a queue where you're not allowed to go to the toilet for two hours, because you're waiting for takeoff.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's it is a very comforting feeling but then as we speak about all this I flew through New York a few days later and then of course I had my own little curse which was also with something we wanted to talk about because I had a typical US experience of leaving the gate being next for a lot in line to take off and then returning to the gate do it due to a tech issue so I had my own JFA experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would like the listeners feedback on this but [SPEAKER_01]: you transit in New York overnight while I was in New York and we didn't see each other because you said that it was just the overnight so you couldn't come to Manhattan. [SPEAKER_01]: Now I take a shoot because I feel that in life I do because while I recognize I haven't yet traveled somewhere like Sweden when you're there or perhaps not even in Switzerland when I when I [SPEAKER_00]: just an hour like when you're in London and you don't come into London.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just think, you know, at least for these spontaneous episode that could have happened life from Manhattan, we would have had on the podcast our very own life from New York. [SPEAKER_01]: It is Saturday night because it was Saturday. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I don't remember. [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you were, so you stayed overnight and you were down the road. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm in New York and I think that would have taken forever and then you were flying home and you had to, and I watched you return back on flight radar. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was on American. [SPEAKER_00]: So at least it was transcontinental.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a nice seat, but yeah, it's one of those. [SPEAKER_00]: Why does this only happen in the US? [SPEAKER_00]: That you're next in line for takeoff. [SPEAKER_00]: Suddenly you're sitting there for 20 minutes and then the pilot comes on, there's a problem with the brakes. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I've taken hundreds of flights on Middle Eastern and Asian Airlines.

[SPEAKER_00]: It has never happened to me a single time that we've left the gate to then return due to a tech issue. [SPEAKER_00]: It has happened. [SPEAKER_00]: I swear it happens every ten flights in the U.S. Yeah, I mean, at least it feels that way, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's not the answer to Heter, but but it feels that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: The it does. [SPEAKER_01]: I had I arrived into the U.S. by British show. [SPEAKER_01]: I flew by London. [SPEAKER_01]: So did the world's only billion dollar air route from London to [SPEAKER_01]: on a 78710 which is nice that it's because they're somewhat rare and it was it was cool it was on a extremely premium heavier craft as British always aircraft that flight to New York are where it was you know the first class a massive business class cabin and a premium cabin and then a smaller economy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was in first on the 7710, and it's the first time in a long while to fly bridge show it's first. [SPEAKER_01]: We can talk about that in a few trips, because there's so much we can talk about the premierisation that has happened over the summer with our priorities, and that's definitely worthy of a chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what I wanted to note is how did I know I was flying on the world's only billion dollar air route? [SPEAKER_01]: And I say that because it's the route that generates over a billion in revenue. [SPEAKER_01]: I glance to the gentleman to my right because there were no doors on this fast-class variant of the 78710 with BA.

[SPEAKER_01]: I glance to the gentleman to my right and he has no privacy screen on his laptop as most don't on the laptop to be honest. [SPEAKER_01]: and he's shopping for private jets and he's going back and forth and analyzing the deer and then I mean there's figures and quotations and negotiations and my eyes are trying to stay on my own screen but they keep straight to the fact that this guy next to me is buying a plane whilst we are battling that rubbish wi-fi on on on on the words only billion dollar [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he took one flight out of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he threw a JFK is like an often a nightmare on both ends. [SPEAKER_00]: So if there was any route time, I would say that's it. [SPEAKER_00]: On a good day, there have been some meltdowns this summer, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's true, that's true. [SPEAKER_00]: It's easy and stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: HTC, baggage as well, be ahead a little baggage. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, so on a good day, it's good, but, you know, we're on a global scale, still some issues. [SPEAKER_01]: What when did you fly through this summer that you felt kind of held up? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in fact, actually, what did you think of how I travel went this summer because we left everyone kind of at the Ready, you know, the peak of the summer saying, okay, you know, enjoy everyone and and you know, so they save out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's complicated. [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, stressful. [SPEAKER_01]: It's busy. [SPEAKER_01]: How did you think everywhere held up? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, for me, everywhere was actually the only kind of bad experience I had was Rhodes Airport, but it's an old crowded airport. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of understandable.

[SPEAKER_00]: But everywhere else, I haven't had long lines, crazy long waits for takeoff. [SPEAKER_00]: What about you? [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think I think places were, we're doing pretty well, and it was good to see airports busy but managing, I flew through Rome for Machino six times in the summer, and each time it was a breeze, which is very nice because I don't think it's just a very busy apple that works very well, and genuinely packed.

[SPEAKER_01]: At some point, I mean, finding myself there in August was not part of my plan, but, you know, things just happen through different, for different reasons and sequence of events and so on, and you end up thinking, gosh, wouldn't be at a, but it was, I mean, yeah, I'm consistently impressed with how Rome manages its operation as such an extremely busy crossroads of Italy, then Europe, and also globally with all the flights that depart in the morning to a cross north and South America, [SPEAKER_01]: and things are moving, and I think the securities are really fast and decent and great food outlaw options and so on and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, Ron, good. [SPEAKER_01]: I think obviously I did Athens quite a bit as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Athens... [SPEAKER_01]: started to show signs of struggling a little as we got further towards the peak summer, especially with things like baggage delivery and that will take him time. [SPEAKER_01]: But otherwise, I think generally places where we're not bad this summer on the whole.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's been the consensus across the industry. [SPEAKER_01]: I've spoken to many colleagues, across the industry in this. [SPEAKER_01]: Not too many, not too many difficulties. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, even, you know, the likes of a Amsterdam, which the past few years have had a tough time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I haven't read anything from there. [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't flown through this summer, but everything seems, it's nice that the industry has gathered strength to a point where it can, you know, handle the summer rush. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and then in the off season, it's really nice, most of the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, shall we, shall we, shall we move into some of the really big and timely updates that I know listeners are expecting us to discuss, of course, and have been messaging us about because as always with aviation, it hasn't been quiet not for a minute and there is so much, so many subjects that we could visit on this first episode back and before we get into the group.

[SPEAKER_01]: But of course, [SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to start with the two kind of most significant things that have both come out of the same region in the last two weeks. [SPEAKER_01]: So of course we're referring gone. [SPEAKER_00]: I hate that it's still the Middle East. [SPEAKER_01]: We're back and we're still talking about the Middle East.

[SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately we're not talking about recovery or is it great that things are normalised or actually we're talking about. [SPEAKER_01]: What seems to be a worsening situation again? [SPEAKER_01]: Of course I'm referring initially to the fly Dubai incident, which listeners will be aware of and will have a chat about that now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then of course right now, as this episode comes out into your podcast feeds, the situation that is continuing to worsen this time with a real Saudi Arabia focus that again has global impact and global ramifications. [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll explore that too, but let's start with Fly Dubai, which of course was on the 30th of September when the aircraft landed in Tabuk in Saudi and through a very skipping to the world party.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, through a very horrific set of circumstances and circumstances and events, [SPEAKER_01]: We now know through the Attorney General who's been appointed to work on this investigation, which is being led by public prosecution team from the UAE, that this was ultimately an attempted terror incident involving the first officer.

[SPEAKER_01]: who had plans to down this aircraft, unclear at the moment as to exactly where there is intelligence that suggests he was going to go attempt to fly into the terminal in Tel Aviv, just, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: the what looks like it was going to be the first or could have been the first catastrophic hijack slash terror instant involving a commercial airline aircraft in recent history something 9 11 S and it's uh yeah that course shock waves across the industry didn't [SPEAKER_00]: It did.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just such a crazy moment to witness because again, we always talk about when there's an incident, the Swiss cheese model is a gold, the Swiss, yeah, yeah, this is a safety system basically. [SPEAKER_00]: where we have so many systems in place to ensure that aviation operates safely, which is there are so many layers, but here there are so many of those steps where things went wrong, and you just wonder, that's always what it's like when there's an incident, but this is really like how were there so many oversights in the UAE, in Israel, and along the way as well, [SPEAKER_00]: And we just have to be so incredibly grateful to the captain, Smith, Mark, oh, I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to pronounce his last name, but this Indian captain who really saved so many lives by, yeah, basically being able to open the cockpit door. [SPEAKER_01]: And in a nutshell, what we have learned through the official channels who are now releasing details about this is that essentially, this was a flight from Dubai to Tel Aviv, which fly to buy a pretty unique inoperating because of the geopolitics of the Middle East and those countries that recognize each other and so on, it's not a common route, shall we say.

[SPEAKER_01]: And on this flight, while they were around 40 minutes away from, from, from, from Tel Aviv, the, we have learnt from the prosecution office that the first officer had informed the captain that he was going to pray. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, uh, pretty standard. [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, his comma place at our lines all around the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that he's going to leave the flight deck. [SPEAKER_01]: It just means that in that moment, control be with the captain. [SPEAKER_01]: If, for example, it was with the first officer. [SPEAKER_01]: and so we understand and this is again all through official channels now so this isn't just here say that while the captain the Indian National was looking outside of the window he felt ultimately a slashed to the back of his head.

[SPEAKER_01]: followed by another one, and then he turned to his find, his first officer in the flight deck with him attacking him with the crash acts, which is in every flight deck. [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that the industry has spent so long focusing on reinforcing that cockpit door to keep anything that's bad out.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've always had this conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: What happens when the bad is already inside, and that's definitely an issue that is coming back into the spot right here. [SPEAKER_00]: more often than not these days. [SPEAKER_00]: The issue is inside the cockpit when something happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it poses the question of we've said so many times the pilot mental health is a huge thing but the fact that [SPEAKER_00]: It turned out to be a terrorist was a known terrorist in his origin country of Oman and he was not allowed to fly in that country yet in the neighboring UAE, which supposedly these countries share safety information and stuff like this.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was able to fly a commercial jet and not only, you know, on any flight, he was able to operate it to a politically sensitive country. [SPEAKER_00]: That's, it's crazy that that was possible. [SPEAKER_00]: And it makes you, it gives me and I'm sure so many people, even more trust issues with like, [SPEAKER_00]: We trust the airlines to protect us and make sure that they've evaluated the pilots for their mental health, for their safety profiles, importantly, because although this is not something we've really seen, a pilot who turns out to be a terrorist, it's a absolutely terrifying thought.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're absolutely and you know the the concern as always is that there are so many things so many areas where how this had not happened then that had not happened right is that classic sequence of of unfortunate events and things not being noticed and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: And what then went on to happen in a nutshell in case people were not so familiar is that while the captain continued to be attacked with an axe from his first officer and he's increasingly becoming unwell, borderline unconscious over the seconds that followed.

[SPEAKER_01]: He managed to open the cockpit door, and by doing so, he wasn't ultimately about to pass out or even have been killed by the first officer leaving the first officer at the controls at this 737, but the cockpit door opened, and then passengers and crew were involved, you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos, and you will have seen videos,

[SPEAKER_01]: This is where the public prosecution kind of the replay of what has happened becomes a bit more vague because they're still determining things they're still needing to extract the data from the flight data record and cockpit voice recorder. [SPEAKER_01]: So this bit becomes a bit vague, but we know that there is involvement here from passengers and crew on board.

[SPEAKER_01]: And thankfully there were also crew who were not flying the aircraft, but there were off duty and reportedly positioning pilots off-lighted by onboard, who then had later taken control of [SPEAKER_01]: the aircraft not before, though, the first officer initiated such a sharp descent that it is being considered to be a form of a dive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, not a nose dive per se where there is dramatic footage of the aircraft literally hurt me towards the ground. [SPEAKER_01]: However, what we have confirmed is that [SPEAKER_01]: At one point the aircraft was pitched down 39 degrees when a normal descent rate is flown at three degrees so you are seeing the massive difference there.

[SPEAKER_01]: The same reporting actually suggests that the aircraft had a peak speed that was way above the maximum operating speed and also above what would have been the certified limits for a [SPEAKER_01]: So, this takes us slightly to a conversation where, and I'll just round up by saying that the pilots who are off due to managed to take control of the aircraft and initiate a safe emergency landing into book and Saudi, where, of course, then everything became very, uh, [SPEAKER_01]: Globally, everyone became very globally aware of what had just happened, and the investigation started, and they had detained the first officer, of course, and exerted him back to UAE, where he remains.

[SPEAKER_01]: At the moment, there aren't no significant updates as of yet, but if there are, we'll bring them. [SPEAKER_01]: But I wanted Dan to have a quick conversation about how the 727 Max held up because in all the conversations I'm having with industry stakeholders, it is nothing short of remarkable that this aircraft was flown deep into territory that no airline pilot will ever see in that career.

[SPEAKER_01]: this structural integrity of an aircraft that has been ridiculed for its safety lapses held. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's, you know, we like to criticize Boeing occasionally for historic lapses on here, but it is there's so many things to be grateful for ultimately compared to what could have [SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the things, and it is comforting to know, and although it's hard to be rational when you are scared of flying, it's things like this that can remind you, at least, okay, the aircraft held.

[SPEAKER_00]: There were other people on board who could fly the aircraft when the pilots were injured. [SPEAKER_00]: There was ultimately we had a good income. [SPEAKER_01]: Positive safety features on the one hand and then coincidences on the other hand completely and and also I was broadcasting during that period and saying just reminding that no new aircraft is ever flown to breaking point before interceptors right they don't they don't fly up an aircraft and say let's deliberately have it rip apart by [SPEAKER_01]: putting it through immense.

[SPEAKER_01]: These things are predicted through modeling and ground testing and analysis and testing and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: But the aircraft exceeded, as I said, all those kind of those ultimate loads and [SPEAKER_01]: Speed was treated similar, but in a nutshell, this flight you buy 7-7 exceeded its maximum operating speed by quite a wide margin.

[SPEAKER_01]: It sustained a very steep high energy dive. [SPEAKER_01]: It was pulled out at a load way above its limit load. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: And within its ultimate limit load, which in aviation again is just, you know, no aircraft should ever enter that territory. [SPEAKER_01]: And yet the wings, the fuselage, the engine mounts, the horizontal tail, the vertical fin, everything held, that there was as you saw in the images.

[SPEAKER_01]: severe damage to the rudder. [SPEAKER_01]: But the rudder is pretty light. [SPEAKER_01]: It's light hinged. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a light hinged service on a long trailing edge, as it's known. [SPEAKER_01]: And it is to be honest, that kind of structure that is most exposed to aerodynamic overload at extreme speed.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was consistent that if anything did break apart, then it was damaged to the rudder. [SPEAKER_01]: But the working assumption [SPEAKER_01]: this aircraft held very well, and this will go down in history, not least, because of the horrendous motives of what happened on board, but also, I guess, praise for the aircraft's resilience, right, because it is really, you know, Boeing can be proud of how the 777 max held, and, and, and of course, then you come to the actual story of the [SPEAKER_01]: Heroic, often it's fine-crewing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So on the note of that, this is still quite unclear because these things are early on. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, do you think that this will have big consequences in a positive way for industry safety and how we, how people check pilot backgrounds, for example? [SPEAKER_01]: potentially, and I think aviation does learn very well from these scenarios.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just so difficult because we're talking about humans and humans are flawed individuals. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, you know, look at what happened with German wings and the fact that [SPEAKER_01]: the pilot who crashed and took everyone down with him and the suicide event with the German wings thing years ago, had himself gone to his doctor multiple times telling them about being suicide or because of German confidentiality laws was never shared with his employer.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's this Swiss cheese thing, as you said, it's so so difficult, but has [SPEAKER_01]: Background checks, beliefs, views, extremism, has all of that come back into the spotlight in the aviation circles. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it's definitely conversations that are not the I'm hearing it, and that's only a good thing in terms of processing for safety.

[SPEAKER_00]: And a positive note to end this segment on is that the U.S. Senate has approved a bipartisan legislation [SPEAKER_00]: basically modern and finally bringing up to date mental health checks and stuff when it comes to pilots and air traffic controllers in the U.S. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're seeing countries do something about this hopefully it's actually taking seriously.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I like to see we need more of those bipartisan common sense movements. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't want to go into the conversations to why we're not because that really hasn't been common as of late, but [SPEAKER_01]: But it's true, especially, you know, these are things everyone can get behind, right, pilot mental health and everyone wants their pilot to be healthy, physically and mentally.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because they are, you know, who are we relying on as we are increasingly globalised world, fly more and, you know, and a fly further. [SPEAKER_01]: It's all these, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: all these different things that tie into the industry which continues to be thankfully the safest form of transport that's my regular episode reminder before I quickly pivot and we won't spend too long on this but the situation with the re-ad and and Saudi having global impact of course because this is slightly different to the confrontation of Trump's war on Iran where Trump is striking Iran and then Iran is retaliating by striking various parts.

[SPEAKER_01]: of the goal for the Middle East. [SPEAKER_01]: This is more focused between the Houthi in Yemen and Saudi Arabia, and it has escalated over the last few weeks quite significantly that now Riyadh Airport is regularly being attacked. [SPEAKER_01]: There have been multiple fatalities, there have been hundreds wounded and injured passengers, staff, pilots, crew, a nightmare for reared, as with big aviation ambitions, of course, a new airline reared air, but also a nightmare because of what they are having to endure.

[SPEAKER_01]: and terrible for the region as everything spills over in escalates and genuine new worry. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just a few days ago, Houthi targeted rear airport again with a very precise strike on one of the terminals followed by another terminal followed by a Saudi Airbus A320 that will [SPEAKER_01]: By missile, absolutely destroyed.

[SPEAKER_01]: A miracle that passengers had not yet boarded that aircraft and that it wasn't full with a 180-plus on board. [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: That was one of my biggest fears. [SPEAKER_00]: The things are one of the things I was picturing the spring in the UAE and Qatar for something like that happen with a fully loaded plane, with fuel on board would be absolutely horrific, of course.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it is interesting because on the one hand, we have this happening in Saudi, on the other hand, in two weeks, it's the start of the winter schedule, in aviation, which means a lot of root updates, root changes, [SPEAKER_00]: And supposedly, most European airlines are going to start returning to the UAE and actually BA has already returned to Qatar, for example, we have a few European airlines that have already returned to Dubai, but most were planning on returning in two weeks.

[SPEAKER_00]: But based on what I read, people really [SPEAKER_00]: they see something happen in Saudi and they go, oh, I'm avoiding the Middle East, that's it. [SPEAKER_00]: So that sentiment is definitely returned. [SPEAKER_01]: I keep seeing on right now. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm almost talking about you know, they were talking about honeymoon and it was it was not anything nobody was checking what's the states of the Middle East.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were saying should I use these miles and points and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: And people saying, well, don't go via the Middle East because you can see what's happening there. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like precisely. [SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking most of this year now with that rhetoric.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it is, I understand it, of course, if you have a choice, it's comforting to avoid it. [SPEAKER_00]: But again, most of the spring, there was very little happening in Saudi, while the UAE was most badly hit. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, it's really only happening in Saudi and the UAE and Qatar, so far touch would have been fine, because they're not in direct conflict with the Houthis, the added layer to this specifically, which I know it's not really a concern, because the Houthis don't have that advanced capabilities.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the concern is that they have made a lot of threats to airlines using Saudi Airspace. [SPEAKER_00]: And Saudi Airspace is the only remaining safe passage between most of the Middle East flying west. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, that was the safe corridor. [SPEAKER_01]: Is the airline so good to be doing?

[SPEAKER_01]: all of that air traffic that can no longer fly over Iran. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's also taking everything from India and South Asia, even the Australian phrase, if people are not going up and over, which is incredibly costly and timely, and you know, just would add on loads of re-routine requirements.

[SPEAKER_01]: Saudi, as we've spoken about, have done an amazing job so far, absorbing much of the world's flows. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, well, you just said it is extremely concerning. [SPEAKER_01]: What happens if Saudi S-based becomes a no-go zone? [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about massive implications with global air travel.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it is, I mean, we've said it on the podcast before we feel safe in Saudi or space. [SPEAKER_00]: We've always said that suddenly, the wonder-active threats, not just towards Saudi Arabia, but literally they've threatened aircraft flying over Saudi Arabia to try to scare people or airlines into avoiding it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's concerning just as you say because, well, if that becomes unavailable, then suddenly a flight from Doha or Dubai to Europe is probably 9 or 10 hours if you have to fly up over Pakistan and Afghanistan or you have to fly south over Africa. [SPEAKER_00]: That is that will have huge implications, as you say, and that would leave that little sliver over the Caucasus as the only remaining connection between Europe and Asia.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that little slither over the Caucasus is just about managing with the re-rooted traffic since the war on Iran broke out in late February that they're cannot absorb. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have the capacity to absorb more. [SPEAKER_01]: Delta was planning to launch its nonstop flights in two weeks between Atlanta and Riyadh.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they have just announced that they will delay that and their postponing. [SPEAKER_01]: The flights between Atlanta and Rio that were supposed to launch in late October to the summer season of 2027. [SPEAKER_01]: So the end of March, the adult to say that it's a mid-evolving development in the region, noting that, quote, the safety and security of customers and employees always comes first and continues to guide our operational decisions, which is of course true for every airline who are kind of staying at our airlines this year, are used to markets coming online and then offline, unfortunately due to geopolitical events, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as you say, earlier in the spring, people were flocking to react because react was functioning normally while the other Gulf states had airspace restrictions due to Trump's war on Iran.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, react is facing something of more severe, I mean, you know, Magnitude is horrendous. [SPEAKER_01]: And there are concerns, of course, as to what happens if this spills over, I was talking with a friend. [SPEAKER_01]: about how World War started, and it's never just between two parties, it's when there are loads of different, you know, conflicts and, and, and, and many wars for sake of a better time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, kind of surviving out of control and all, all become one and we're seeing, of course, [SPEAKER_01]: big concerns in Europe with Russia movements and not just involving Ukraine but the Baltic states there was a night a few weeks ago while I was in New York where all of Europe seemed to have received intelligence that war was about to break out the next morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember seeing that and [SPEAKER_01]: every European leader, we stand together, ready for whatever will face us, war or not, and this was the rhetoric that night, and everyone was thinking, what is going on, what do they know? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think I was in Europe then, but yeah, I saw it, and it's to me what's quite fascinating in all of this is how we're at least in our lifetimes, we're in the most unstable, unpredictable time [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, travel demand is so strong.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not only very cool. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we said people are going to stand Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: People have been flying all over the world, even in the face of this. [SPEAKER_00]: I worry somehow that we're getting too desensitized to what's going on. [SPEAKER_01]: We're desensitizing because it's like, what do you do?

[SPEAKER_01]: You sit at home and you turn on the news and you just watch how the world's falling apart or you also live in parallel to that. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're able to, it's a weird [SPEAKER_01]: premium travel. [SPEAKER_01]: Premium leisure specifically is booming. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not talking about the corporates, your deloids and your vacancy sending that consultants around the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're literally talking about people saying, I have this cash saved up and I'm going to use it to fly business class on a premium trip to this destination while seemingly the world's falling apart. [SPEAKER_01]: And and premium travel is, yeah, I mean, just doing incredibly well while this is also happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is interesting and I would love to spend more time talking about the continued sustained premium leisure demand, the way the premium or the way that premium business demand has not really come back because I think a lot of airlines are so in this limbo where obviously a business traveler paying $10,000 for a business loss to get is still the most valuable client they could target.

[SPEAKER_00]: The whole business class experience on a lot of airlines is sort of There's a much mismatch between who is flying at these days and what you offer Just if you look at the drink menu for example on a lot of airlines It's very targeted at the corporate 50-year-old business man not so much at the 30-year-olds who are, you know, who live in London and drink much and [SPEAKER_00]: Love trendy fun stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not really reflected but increasingly these are the people who are flying premiums So we can get into that another time, but it's it I think it's fun to talk about [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and, and, and, you know, premium travel doing so well and, and it being so strong, despite it, everything being so expensive, because everything is, you as consumer prices are up 4% just just for August, air fairs that begin in the United States.

[SPEAKER_01]: While I was there in September, I was, [SPEAKER_01]: meeting with some different stakeholders across the aviation sector in the United States and on these coasts. [SPEAKER_01]: Airfares are up 24% obviously. [SPEAKER_01]: That's in line with, for example, gas if you're just filling up your car in the US, which is up 30% and that's not just the US, that's kind of so many places.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the total travel spend, though, on U.S. travel, especially in bringing them, is up, U.S. citizen, international departures, up, U.S. seat capacity, up, it's, you know, there is the, [SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing this scenario where perhaps globally there should be a recession, but instead people have just reallocated where they spend also in the face of such uncertainty.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Gen Z is increasingly not saving money because which is very bad, of course, due to a general worry about the future and belief that, you know, there's no point in saving because we won't be able to buy homes anyway and stuff like that. [SPEAKER_00]: So people are using more of their income on buying experiences.

[SPEAKER_01]: this is the experience economy and we're all living in it and it's that you know people are people are buying into that. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great one which we can tell you when we discuss the premiumisation of everything. [SPEAKER_01]: Well look I think on that note we'll wrap and there's so much that I'm looking forward to getting into with you as our episodes progress just to remind you to listen as you can send in your fresh questions, thoughts, anecdotes, anything you'd [SPEAKER_01]: The easiest way is to ask shared Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: The username is at on air with Dan and Alex. [SPEAKER_01]: That's all one word. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the username. [SPEAKER_01]: On Instagram, send it there. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see it. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll add it to the list for next week. [SPEAKER_00]: We will. [SPEAKER_00]: And remember, this week we had to cover some very serious topics.

[SPEAKER_00]: It varies week by week, luckily. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not always something that's heavy and, you know, that's why we like on here. [SPEAKER_00]: We have everything. [SPEAKER_01]: I like that you, you're always there down to reassure, you know, I know we were serious and heavy this week, but we don't have to be always.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, we have fun too. [SPEAKER_01]: Rave the relaxed ones, the relaxed that the switch, of course, that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll be, but there's some big business to get out the way first and just making sure that you guys are up to speed with the context of all of that, but you're absolutely right.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can find us, of course, on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, and on every other podcast platform. [SPEAKER_00]: If there's one we're not on, let us know. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget to leave a review. [SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't already, we always appreciate that. [SPEAKER_00]: And until we see you next week, same place, same time, we'll see you [UNKNOWN]: You

We’re Back: Flydubai Incident, Houthi Strikes on Riyadh, Summer Travel Recap

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