Which Airlines Are Overrated? (ft. Nicky Kelvin)

0:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and I'm Nicky and we are pleased to be with you here on a Wednesday high to you all wherever you're listening on either platform as you may have heard Dan and I are pleased to be joined by the guest co-host on today's episode we're joined by Nicky Kelvin welcome Nicky he's a music lawyer turned full-time aviation obsessive many of you will know him via the point sky channels everywhere around the world including the UK [SPEAKER_01]: But also Nicky now spends much of his days flying around the world.

0:34 [SPEAKER_01]: He's big on YouTube, reviewing, decoding the world of points, Mars, premium cabins, very much speaks, our language, and he has been everywhere, often arguing with his teammates as to who is going to fly up front on those famous videos that he does now, where there's a few of them, and they fly in multiple cabins on the same flights, much just the delight.

0:55 [SPEAKER_01]: of the viewers. [SPEAKER_01]: Nikki, welcome to On Air. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, hello. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good to be here. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very excited to talk about planes for the morning. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for coming to do. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited. [SPEAKER_00]: You're our first co-host on this podcast.

1:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm very honored. [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're going to have some fun. [SPEAKER_02]: I know we are. [SPEAKER_02]: We share a lot of opinions, but maybe we're going to have a few cheeky arguments about certain airlines and experiences to another excited for that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's always better when you disagree.

1:29 [SPEAKER_01]: When we get together as well, where the last time the three of us were together was actually in South Korea earlier this year, which I know you have just literally landed from and joining us fresh off of a direct flight from Seoul, [SPEAKER_01]: I always notice that when we do, when we do end up meeting up at these different aviation events, the conversation is so different when you just meet anyone else because anyone else is, you know, and how's the family and where have you been?

1:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're straight away were like, Nikki, did you see what Air France did with La Première? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, it's straight in to get to see if we're aligned or if we're on the other side of the scale, we've got a different take. [SPEAKER_02]: But I love that, and having a different take is always the best, but it's also nice to take things off the internet.

2:17 [SPEAKER_02]: It's great when we've managed to come and say it to the same place in the world and really dive deep because I'm very interested in your opinions, and this is a topic that I am very passionate about as I know both of you are, so there's always lots to be said. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a hundred percent.

2:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So when we saw you, we were at the Korean Air New Livry reveal and it's obviously been seven months now. [SPEAKER_00]: How are we all feeling about Korean Air's new Livry now that it's been able to marinate a little bit? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me let me tell you yesterday in the morning I was not flying on Korean I was actually flying on Asiano, which I think, well, I wanted to talk about later, because it was an interesting experience and we'll hold that.

3:02 [SPEAKER_02]: but as I took off, I love being in a hub airport of anywhere because there's something very satisfying about seeing all the planes lined up and it doesn't matter what airline it is. [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you see like 20 Delta aircraft or 20 Etihad aircraft, whatever it is at all next future there's something very satisfying to the eye.

3:21 [SPEAKER_02]: But as I took off on Incheon yesterday, seeing all of the Korean aircraft lined up, and they were interspersed, I'd say, of like 15 in a row, maybe three were in the new delivery, and it's just not hitting for me. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's because I really loved the old delivery. [SPEAKER_02]: And the event we went to and saw was it was a pretty glitzy event.

3:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they were literally shoveling caviar in people's mouths. [SPEAKER_02]: And the delivery whilst it was like shiny and cute, I think the event wilders is the delivery itself really, as I've settled into it, I think I'm not that into it to be honest. [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.

4:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that, yeah, I don't think it's, I think, [SPEAKER_01]: I think I associated it with the event as well. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think when I see it, I react positively to it immediately because I'm nostalgic about what a great event that was. [SPEAKER_01]: There was a bathtub of caviar, as Nikki said.

4:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was extra, but it was good. [SPEAKER_01]: But as if we were just judging it on paper, as we do with most of the deliveries, where it's just a press release. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it did, it did, they did lose some soul ironically, so in that in that design process and unfortunately I think that's more often than not the case now in aviation.

4:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right with it, they aren't you done. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess I'm the one who likes the most on this little panel today, just because I have to appreciate any airline that incorporates color in their delivery in 2025, because we're used to boring white, drab deliveries, maybe besides rear airs, new delivery as well, or their delivery period.

5:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate that about it, I will say. [SPEAKER_02]: To be clear, like I think a lot of it for me comes from loving the old one so much. [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of my favorites. [SPEAKER_01]: If I was a similar model to Lufthansa when Lufthansa kind of removed the yellow and then everyone was told to convince themselves that actually this is the new modern era when we were like, well, didn't you just kind of strip down the only thing that the only bit of colour that worked for you and now you're stuck with low cloud and dark navy blue in Frankfurt?

5:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But what's so confusing about Lufthansa is you go to Frankfurt and they still have all these yellow, Lufthansa flags outside the terminal, all the signs are yellow, I'm like, guys, what is this half-hearted rebranding? [SPEAKER_01]: Nicky, do you remember that they were, they were literally installing the new sign of the headquarters while we were inside the event?

5:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you catch that when we walked out? [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think I did actually, but that was that would have been quite cool to see. [SPEAKER_02]: It was, we were like, should I dragging, dragging the old signs off and putting the new ones up? [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: We were walking out and, you know, Dan and I think, okay, for the long drive back and where's the car and whatever.

6:09 [SPEAKER_01]: We, as the sliding doors to HQ of Korea now open and we step outside, we said, you know, what a time for construction, really now, because we had to avoid these [SPEAKER_01]: the entrance, and then when we looked up, it wasn't any construction. [SPEAKER_01]: They had taken down the old logo of Korean air and had already put up the new one, only in Asia could that happen.

6:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Well let me say, if that's no, I didn't see that, but that's quite cool, but also if you can hear slight banging in the background, that's some work going on in my house, but I was actually just trying to bring this energy of the Korean rebrands between the purpose. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you [SPEAKER_00]: Are they putting up the Korean hair logo outside your house?

6:54 [SPEAKER_02]: It's that, I don't know, if you know you went home in a car, I went home in a van because I took the old sign with me a bit of nostalgia. [SPEAKER_02]: Told you I liked it a lot, I liked it that much, I took it home with me. [SPEAKER_01]: Before we go to into other areas, I quickly want to know something that I don't think we've discussed this, but for all the times we've met up in the long conversations we've had, [SPEAKER_01]: And the bit I know about you is that I know that Nikki Pre Aviation was a music lawyer, but I don't think you still are, is that right?

7:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, in but look to the letter of the law, I am a solicitor still. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm allowed to call myself a non-practicing solicitor, but all I've got to do if I want to be practising is like, pay the 200 quid, um, solicitor's regulation authority fee, and that's it, and I'm back in, which is actually pretty outrageous.

7:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I don't, but I don't work or get paid as a lawyer, but I am still one. [SPEAKER_01]: and aviation law was never something because I know that obviously you're in aviation now because that's born out of passion. [SPEAKER_01]: So when I realised that you're also a lawyer and that's what was what I associate with you with, I thought I wonder why that wasn't a path.

8:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I always wanted to be a pilot, actually. [SPEAKER_02]: That was what I wanted to do, but then I got Crohn's disease. [SPEAKER_02]: And at the time, you couldn't get the Class 1 medical license. [SPEAKER_02]: So that kind of went out of the window. [SPEAKER_02]: So I keep the parents happy by being a lawyer.

8:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And I got this opportunity. [SPEAKER_02]: I trained in a big American law firm in the city in London. [SPEAKER_02]: And in the UK, you jump around different practices to qualify. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I went to work at a record label and that was where I was there for five years and it was very cool So I never it never kind of crossed my path doing aviation law the firm I worked at didn't really do anything aviation related So it was never really on the cards for me and I don't know how interesting aviation law would have been to me really [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

8:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Your sister was B.A. [SPEAKER_01]: Crew, right? [SPEAKER_02]: She was. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: And people like people like to think that that gave me my love or passion for aviation, which it didn't actually she was scared of flying and didn't like planes and worked on the ground at Leeds Bradford and got coerced into becoming crew.

9:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And then came to love her, whereas I was like from the early early days of my life was always obsessed. [SPEAKER_01]: we can resonate with that. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we share the same thing that Dan, you and I were discussing before Nicky joined us about how we said we all have also the UK in common at least through childhood.

9:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I think is like Nicky, you're a Brit from the North that I am born and raised just [SPEAKER_01]: in London and also in Sussex, or sorry, which one? [SPEAKER_00]: You're Sussex, but I'm born in London, so. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm born in London as well, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I knew this about you, Dan.

9:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you've information to me. [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, yeah, it's, I don't walk around with a British flag, but I have that connection to the UK, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't do that these days. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no. [SPEAKER_01]: How many years in England, Dan? [SPEAKER_01]: And what, well, you, 10 or 11 when you left?

10:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I was nine, so nine years and then, but fully, I mean, from birth until nine years old, so. [SPEAKER_02]: That's fascinating. [SPEAKER_02]: And not that anything surprises me, like you two chaps are very, very international and we, and you know, in our world, you meet a lot of people who, I'm actually the boring one here.

10:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I just like, I don't know, I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you've had a such a fascinating journey from, you know, from your shirt to the world, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, from leads to the globe. [SPEAKER_02]: But that sounds like a tagline for Lee's brother for the airport.

10:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let us not forget actually jet two is from Leeds, which the same way like nice about that. [SPEAKER_02]: It would say like you're not jet two's call sign. [SPEAKER_02]: Little pop quiz for you both. [SPEAKER_02]: What is not that cool side?

10:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: The code they're like Alan. [SPEAKER_02]: Lima Yankee, isn't it? [SPEAKER_02]: limoussiera, limoussiera, we're thinking of limoussiera, which is, um, with limoussiera, LS is, um, is jet 2, which is lead to his postcode. [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in LS 17. [SPEAKER_01]: That's all right, let me get a little bit of least trivia on the podcast.

11:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that. [SPEAKER_01]: What's the, like, the moment, what's the time that you then, [SPEAKER_01]: What's the defining moment? [SPEAKER_01]: Because down on us, I've spoken about this before, but what's the defining moment where you think, okay, that's where you know that your obsession with aviation is alive.

11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And then later, how does that then become part of the career plan? [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so, what, do you want to take a, am I taking you back to the, the first, first memories of me being obsessed? [SPEAKER_02]: Basically. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I mean, I, I always, I always remember one of my earliest, most like av geeky moments was as, as a, as a young, as a young kid.

12:05 [SPEAKER_02]: We used to go to Israel on holiday a lot, and, um, we mentioned L, why is it called sign to L, I used to fly and sporadically over the years have flown to Manchester from Tel Aviv. [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the way that we used to go to go on holiday to Israel. [SPEAKER_02]: And they used to fly, they had 75-7s and 7-6-7s that they flew to Manchester.

12:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there's 7-9-7s. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and in those days, you never really knew, you know, there was no flight raid on there. [SPEAKER_02]: And as like a 6-7 year old, I didn't know what like what aircraft was going to turn up. [SPEAKER_02]: And we used to be driving to Manchester Airport and me saying to my parents, [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be like if it's if it's a seven five to seven I'm not going I'm not going on I'm not going to Israel It has to be the seven six seven and they'd be like literally like what are you talking about and then we go like go through security and I'd run to the gate And run to the window and look at the aircraft and see what it was and there was something so exciting to me about being on a wide body And also like I've always been into like the branding element of um have of airlines and

13:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And the inside of the the 766 Evans were painted in blue with blue seats and the 777's one like this brown dirty color and they had like kind of these brown ugly mountains painted on the sides of the walls and I really didn't like it. [SPEAKER_02]: I really favored the 767 and I just remember so vividly how much of a big deal this was to meet the time and it was something that even the adults around me literally didn't even know what I was talking about.

13:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So it just came out of nowhere by flying basically. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think so. [SPEAKER_02]: I just always had that fascination. [SPEAKER_02]: I used to get my parents to take me to least breath for their port to watch the planes. [SPEAKER_02]: The same thing was the same thing. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just don't know, I don't where exactly that came from.

13:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I can just identify the the manifestations of that obsession. [SPEAKER_02]: But it was always there from the very beginning. [SPEAKER_00]: Was that just a quick nerdy question? [SPEAKER_00]: Was that a 767-200? [SPEAKER_00]: Or sometimes that or a 300? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'd you know, I think it definitely wasn't it whatever it was it was an ER because I think the All like what did they for suffix it with the ER LR there was definitely like Yeah, because I remember it's saying long range or extended range or something I should know this better [SPEAKER_00]: because there's I see they had the 767 200 ER and the 300 ER but the 200 is just such a I mean now obviously non-existent plane but it's one of the coolest planes you can imagine like a wide body with a 321 form factor basically.

14:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was probably that I reckon it was that 200ER. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're talking like this, well, this is early 90s, so that I think that probably tracks. [SPEAKER_01]: We were saying that the, I mean, it's interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: When, [SPEAKER_01]: But when you have this big passion in aviation, which the three of us share, the assumption from everyone else is that it's linked with family.

15:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you use touch on it at the start, there's probably why people make the link, it's in several of your intros online about the fact that your sister was crew ends up being crew in BA, but actually you say that your fascination and passion was there way before that, just as long as you can remember.

15:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And in that sense, we're the same. [SPEAKER_01]: the interesting part is how you also can't put your finger on it because neither can we went when we were asked. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't say that, oh, it was, you know, it was after I was seven or it is as long as I can remember and Dan says that he's the same.

15:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But the only, let's say, awakening moment in all of that for me was when I read Richard Branson's book, which was a short read. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was only a hundred pages. [SPEAKER_01]: It was called Scrit Let's Do It. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a brief [SPEAKER_01]: Um, brief notes of how he started to set up the Virgin Group of Virgin Atlantic, and he wrote early on in the book, how aviation, unlike anything else, he had dabbled with or thought about.

16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Just got into his blood, like nothing else did, and he felt it everywhere, and from that moment on, it was like the famous Leonardo da Vinci, [SPEAKER_01]: quote about walking the earth with your eyes turned sky wasn't he said it was just absolutely him despite they're not being a clear link between you know hereditary or ancestors and so on.

16:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being seven and reading that line and thinking, yes, that's how I feel about aviation. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the same exact thing. [SPEAKER_01]: There was no link. [SPEAKER_01]: The school later confiscated that book because they said it was an adult read, so they would rather reading some other bullshit.

16:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But that was like the moment. [SPEAKER_02]: that really resonates with me as well. [SPEAKER_02]: I think the three of us seem to seem to be coming from a common place with this, but you see that a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: And in my world, I've had exposure to lots of different worlds, do the different careers that I've done through music, lore, and then obviously in the aviation world, it's different UX.

17:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I expect to turn up to an event like the Korean Brat Leverie reveal and people be into aviation, but in music, for example, where it's not that world at all, you would find your people, people would come out of the woodwork and you'd find yourself having these in-depth conversations about aircraft and airlines and people who have been obsessive.

17:29 [SPEAKER_02]: forever and ever and ever, same in like the gay world in the gay community. [SPEAKER_02]: I think actually, I mean, I think in the gay world, you find, I'm sure there's something in this, there's an over indexing of people who have an obsession with aviation, but the people in that world who've really come to me and are seeking out like that moment to have a discussion, they're in the club, they're in, I don't know, it's three a.m. in the club, but they want to talk about [SPEAKER_02]: Um, whatever meal service on some airline that they were really impressed with, I find it like really really hilarious, and I love it.

18:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I love connecting over that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and there's this general obsession with flight rate or 24, specific like Avgicre is one thing, but there's like a community of the people who you would always least expect who are obsessed with flight rate or 24, which always fascinates me.

18:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's really interesting because that really that is that sits outside the right. [SPEAKER_02]: It sits outside of the avgeeks. [SPEAKER_02]: I've got people who are flight. [SPEAKER_02]: I know people flight radar 24 obsessives who really are not into aviation. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's so funny.

18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: But we want to move into our first little debate or discussion of the day, which is surrounding sky trucks, sky trucks is obviously the most recognized airline rating system out there, airport ratings, all that kind of [SPEAKER_00]: So in general with airline ratings, or specifically with SkyTrucks, do you make you feel that those ratings are generally trustworthy, accurate, or do you more align with me and Alex?

19:05 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I guess the common trope is that skytracks are just bought awards or whatever, you know, that maybe the ones, certain airlines that have these consistently high ratings, maybe they deserve maybe they don't. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know if I have, well, I have no factual or evidence base, I've never researched it, I actually don't know.

19:24 [SPEAKER_02]: So, and my take on this is that I actually, like, don't know if people really care. [SPEAKER_02]: So like out in the real world, I don't really believe that people are choosing who to fly with, or caring who they fly with based on these kind of ratings. [SPEAKER_02]: I've never heard a normal person, not in aviation be like, be like, oh, it's really shocked by that meal on that plane or that seat on that plane because after all, they are a five star awarded skytracks airline.

19:55 [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not something that's like for normal consumers, I don't think they're really thinking about it. [SPEAKER_02]: In a way that people are like, oh my mum flew with them and it was terrible and I'll never fly with them. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think those things have much more impact.

20:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So Skytracks, in conclusion, I don't, I don't know if I have like an evidential take on how accurate they are or not. [SPEAKER_02]: I certainly disagree in some respects where like an Alan's highly rated and I have a bad experience. [SPEAKER_02]: But my main take is I just don't think your average consumer knows or cares.

20:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually a fascinating take. [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: Before the, you know, without actually looking at how Skytracks operates, I guess, [SPEAKER_01]: What I want to know on that is if you as a traveler and a frequent fly all around the world and where we're crossing parts all the time, if it plays any role into how you perceive airlines to be.

20:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Because again, it's different for the outside world and how the public perceive this to us and the inside. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you give it any thought as to, okay, you know, this is this is credit, not just credible, but this airline is just receive this, so let's give it a go or it just doesn't play a role.

21:08 [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't it but for me personally it doesn't play it doesn't play a role it over the past years I think we used to be more intense in the way that we used to do this but the point guy used to issue awards it was things like you know best international first class best US domestic airline whatever load lots of different awards like that.

21:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the run up to it, we would send people out and we would go and fly an experience and re-rate. [SPEAKER_02]: And actually when we review flights now, we used to have scored rating, scored ratings, which we don't actually do anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: But that also comes with like, [SPEAKER_02]: a it's very subjective it's people that are fans of ours that may be aligned with the way that we view things but when it comes to like a skytracks or the awards that they're giving or you know a similar kind of like people who give stars or ratings or whatever.

22:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it gives this one big stamp to a whole airline or whole experience. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just don't think that like, it's just, the world doesn't work like that. [SPEAKER_02]: So let's take, let's take Qatar for it as an example. [SPEAKER_02]: An airline that is in my experience incredibly consistent and across the board.

22:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I've had lots of great experiences. [SPEAKER_02]: I've had some not-so-good experiences too. [SPEAKER_02]: But like for example, my experience of flying from Nairobi to Doha on one of the old triple sevens with the old business class. [SPEAKER_02]: Like that is not a five star experience, because a product to see at all.

22:39 [SPEAKER_02]: But yet we'll be the experience of many tens or hundreds of thousands of people in a year who end up on that aircraft versus what I still believe and many other people say is one of if not the best business class in the world, if you get like the the right queue suite on the right route on the right day.

22:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So just giving that like one stump to an entire airline or an entire cabin of an airline just doesn't really work in the real world. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love this perspective. [SPEAKER_00]: I also think that if you ask your average person like what rating do you think this airline has, like for example, if you ask people what rating do you think Emirates has, I think most people would assume that that's five star, but that's not the case.

23:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the question is what exactly are we calling five star? [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, some elements of the onboard experience could be, but then, if you look at their app or their customer service or their service recovery, things like that, then it completely flips, you'd be calling the US Airlines, if the world's five star airlines, compared to, you know, many of the airlines on the five star lists, where on ground or a mobile customer service is almost non-existent, so, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to I totally agree with that.

23:55 [SPEAKER_02]: People ask me all the time, like, and people must ask you this all the time as well. [SPEAKER_02]: They'll say things like, I've got to go to, I've got to go to Hong Kong or New York, or whatever, like, like, what's the best, what's the best there? [SPEAKER_02]: Or what's the best way? [SPEAKER_02]: Or they'll say, like, like, I'm flying virgin.

24:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Are they any good? [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, well, what route? [SPEAKER_02]: what happened? [SPEAKER_02]: What aircraft, what come in, what are you paying? [SPEAKER_02]: Like all of these things like the come together for me to give you an answer. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you're flying to the mouldy is on virgin and you've got upper class from 900 pounds return, then I'm going to be like good luck to you.

24:39 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll have a great time. [SPEAKER_02]: It's worth it, but if you're paying 10 grand to go to [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, then you're not going to find the value. [SPEAKER_02]: There's just so much the so much subjectivity to it. [SPEAKER_01]: So the funny part of the example is of course that if you're flying across the Atlantic on their upper class, let's say in a 787, it's upper class.

24:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're flying the same product in Asia on a tireways flight is premium economy. [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's [SPEAKER_01]: business, lower than that, but somewhere between economy and business as a premium economy, plus the concept is the different expectation, the difference in the, in a very unlevel playing field globally.

25:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I also, I think like Archwell, we're on this topic. [SPEAKER_02]: One thing which annoys me is people who then take this kind of, these kind of differences [SPEAKER_02]: The market or like what's go you know people are like talk about European business class and like and what an absolute joke It is and how like yeah and how that compares to other places like sure that obviously like is a is like some Space savers seat on a left-hanzer 320 being sold as business class with a block middle seat a luxury experience compared to like flying I mean I flew either a EVA whatever you want recently from Taipei to Hong Kong on their dream liner [SPEAKER_02]: short-haul flight, business class life, one of the best flights I've ever had, amazing food service, all this stuff, and people are like, and I'm post about it being like, this was incredible.

26:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And people commenting being like, you will look at this British Airways, what an absolute joker there, but I was like, you've got, it's not apples for apples, you really, you really can't come here, it doesn't take away the joy of those experiences. [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, if they can get away with it, they will and I'm sort of, I'm not going to get upset or stressed.

26:48 [SPEAKER_02]: People get upset about this stuff, actually annoyed from afar. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, why are you annoyed by it? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm annoyed by your annoyed. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good take because you're so right. [SPEAKER_00]: Everything is context specific and you need to consider that.

27:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any airline or any airlines that you think are underrated that deserve to maybe be a five-star airline or deserve to be more generally praised than they are? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, talk about giving an opinion based on an absolute sliver of experience. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to go in that now, but I'll go with it on that context.

27:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I've never flown this airline before until yesterday, but I flew from Seoul back to... [SPEAKER_02]: I want to also contact this airline, we'll not really exist for very few years. [SPEAKER_02]: But... [SPEAKER_02]: I flew yesterday from Seoul to London on Aegeanah, Aegeanah which is about to be absorbed into Korean air.

27:50 [SPEAKER_02]: It's an airline that, and actually from the reactions when we briefly discussed this before, like I think maybe one or both of you view this in a mildly negative light in terms of passenger experience and everything I had read online before because I'd like to do a bit of [SPEAKER_02]: The reason why I chose to fly them was that I wanted it's a long it's a long old flight It's about it was look yesterday the flight time was 14 and a half hours full so I'll back to London It's a long time sorry long day.

28:19 [SPEAKER_02]: It was 14 hours 50. [SPEAKER_02]: It was really long and and I At the ticket was the ticket in business class was like it was like 1100 pounds Which was I thought amazing what that was pretty reasonable [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought it's interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: I love giving a new airline a go and everything I'd read was that was relatively negative.

28:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I say negative, just like it's just me. [SPEAKER_02]: It was all of it, meh. [SPEAKER_02]: And I had the best time. [SPEAKER_02]: The lounge in Shion I thought was really lovely. [SPEAKER_02]: The cabin was much nicer than I expected it to be. [SPEAKER_02]: I actually flew Eva.

28:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Long haul on their triple seven on the Hello Kitty play. [SPEAKER_02]: None of that is a miserable cabin I don't know if you've ever done it. [SPEAKER_00]: It's old. [SPEAKER_02]: There've been on there. [SPEAKER_02]: That was Joe that was miserable this this felt it felt fresher the they was on a 350 it was only I think five years old the aircraft So it was new ish but the service was like amazing the food was some of the best the first meal I got served as one of the best meals I've ever had in business class Carried food [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was, they did a, um, uh, some, some, but maybe they call it where it was like a bowl of like all different types of leaves and cabbage and different ones that've seen like a bit like a net all and like like maybe four or five different types of leaves.

29:43 [SPEAKER_02]: There was a short rib, like a braised short rib and all different kind of like a bean paste rice, like all different bits and you made up the wraps in the leaves. [SPEAKER_02]: It was so tasty. [SPEAKER_02]: The beef was gorgeous, really fresh, beautifully presented. [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, it was really, really, really good.

30:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just like the service was amazing. [SPEAKER_02]: The crew were really lovely and kind. [SPEAKER_02]: There was great snacks. [SPEAKER_02]: There was a great second meal service, lovely drinks, the silverware and the croquery and everything was like beautiful. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just brilliant.

30:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Like everything about it was really good. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think also I went into the experience expecting it to be very, probably helped then, right? [SPEAKER_02]: totally. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it always is if you go in high expectations like you know you're setting yourself up to fail, but um but this was one where I was like yeah it was it's definitely one where literally underrated rated poorly by every everything I read and I had a really good experience.

30:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I get to the delivery of the ASEAN AI 350s and it's funny because the uh when they first took the AI 350 and I remember boarding it for the first time at Airbus, [SPEAKER_01]: I thought, wow, we found our first Airbus 850 customer that managed to make the 350 look old because it was so beige and so cloth everywhere.

31:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just, it really looked and, and [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because most airlines don't go for beige because of a million different reasons and not least because of the way that it can show dirt or spills or whatever, but it wasn't an example of how an airline can make an aircraft, there's brand new, not look brand new anymore, but nice to hear that.

31:27 [SPEAKER_01]: all these years later, you said it was about five or six years old. [SPEAKER_01]: This, this, airframe that it's still looked fresh because the same cannot be said for so many of the other through 50 operators that are in home markets that do not spend to maintain. [SPEAKER_01]: I flew from where was I flying tires, flying from Seoul to Bangkok on Tio, Isaiah 350, which was one of the last A350s that they had taken of the batch.

31:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And I did the delivery of the first one. [SPEAKER_01]: This was [SPEAKER_01]: went into the bathroom, you know, finished, go to wash my hands. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no tap at all. [SPEAKER_01]: There's just a, there's no hole in the tap. [SPEAKER_01]: She's cool. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I opened the door and said to the crew, hi, there's no tap.

32:10 [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, oh, yeah, I know she ran over with a bottle of Evian and said, put your hands there and I put my hands over the sink and she poured drinking water, bottle of Evian over my hands. [SPEAKER_01]: So they knew and she said, yeah, you know, because they're really expensive. [SPEAKER_01]: and I even felt bad that she was just defying the cost of a tap.

32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I said to her, you know this aircraft is only a few years old. [SPEAKER_01]: She's in, yeah, you know, difficult to, you know, with the finances and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: She was like shy as if it's, you know, an embarrassment or a bit of a shame, but, you know, not every new add-on operator keeps their aircraft.

32:47 [SPEAKER_01]: In a decent condition, even if we go on to flight radar, you see that the plane coming in to get you is only a few years old and you think amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: It's still going to have the new plane smell. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not always true. [SPEAKER_02]: that can we just take a moment to appreciate the vision of Alex having his hands washed for for him with Evian, which I feel like if you didn't without the context of knowing there was no tap in the toilet, that's the kind of thing that would make it onto into the media being like aviation analyst Alex Beshearers see seeing having his hands personally washed with Evian in the toilet [SPEAKER_02]: Like demanding, demanding to be clean, or whatever that is.

33:24 [SPEAKER_01]: To do that online, not do that. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm confused, it's like, for everyone, it's like, did you not have that on your fucking thing? [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a lot sort of the surprise of our partners. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think the interesting, if I take away from this is that readings sometimes, if the reading is low, it can help an airline, like an easy honest case, because you actually went in expecting less came out impressed.

33:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, something like Air France Labyrinth era, which I tried once, [SPEAKER_00]: But I went in with expectations to have by far the best flight of my life, and of course that didn't materialize because my expectations were so high based on the price and based on the hype.

34:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the situation where what everyone is saying sort of can take away from an experience that would have been really impressive otherwise. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that I definitely, I definitely feel like when you go into it, when you go into it, expecting the most, and also why money matters as well.

34:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, like, for what I paid yesterday, it was a bargain for that flight, even if I would have paid more, but had I have paid 10,000 pounds for that without the same, not so sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, what is the best flight of your life done? [SPEAKER_02]: I know this is my God.

34:43 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not my best flight of my life. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's not necessarily the airlines themselves, but it's the experience you have on specific flights. [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, those are there's a handful of times where I've surprised [SPEAKER_00]: My mom with something amazing or my friends like I I did Two friends and me and Oscar in a queue sweet quad from Stockholm to Seoul It was the most fun flight ever.

35:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I surprised my mom with Emirates first earlier this year like those flights [SPEAKER_00]: just they create such nice memories for everyone involved, and especially I think for the avgeet, like I was having more fun than my friends were flying Q3 for the first time just because I'm on a plane and I'm with my best friends and yeah we're having a blast.

35:36 [SPEAKER_00]: What about you who? [SPEAKER_02]: And I have a, well, that was very awesome. [SPEAKER_02]: Mine mines a much more selfish experience, but I have a real standout flight on the Singapore. [SPEAKER_02]: I was flying Singapore's Yurik. [SPEAKER_02]: I'd been away with my best friend in Bali, and when I, on the way home, I'd used miles, and I didn't know why I was going to Zurik.

35:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that was where they were, I think at the time, they were only flying the new sweets to London's Yurik. [SPEAKER_02]: and I managed to get polite mileage variability. [SPEAKER_02]: Got on board, I was the only passenger in the six sweets on all three eight two. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think they have fork at the time they have four crew assigned to like the first class cabin.

36:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And they were all amazing. [SPEAKER_02]: They were so fun. [SPEAKER_02]: And they just were like they just weren't completely overboard like and they also this was like this was I don't know if I'd even Maybe I'd just started at the points guy. [SPEAKER_02]: You know sometimes you think do they clock it and they're trying to like put on a bit of a show for you This was definitely wrong the case.

36:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I was not doing I wasn't reviewing it. [SPEAKER_02]: It was not really in my game [SPEAKER_02]: And they were like, oh, we've made up one double sweep you just for photos. [SPEAKER_02]: We've made up one double sweep for you to like go to sleep in like have the run of the place and then there was just this like one them one specific moment that I had I thought the best time ever had this one memory where [SPEAKER_02]: I went to the toilet.

36:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I was gone for like, I don't know, a minute or two is in the middle of the night and I came back didn't see any crew didn't hear anything and when I came back They'd remade the bed put a mat out by the bed put fresh slippers refilled my water like reset the whole thing and I was like Where have you even come from?

37:14 [SPEAKER_02]: How did you even lower? [SPEAKER_02]: I got up and I was like that is like service to the next level Nobody was waiting there for a for a thank you or anything. [SPEAKER_02]: It was like they did it in that and that was it [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so yeah, that was I've had some very cool experiences doing like fun aviation stuff, but that's a real stand out as just like a kind of raw passenger experience That sounds amazing sing Singapore sweets or Singapore first class crew are just like superhuman.

37:39 [SPEAKER_00]: They're so amazing and it sounds like you got even the best of the best, but of course being alone it makes it even better [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I will now feel bad because you've had the little thing you said. [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's about human human interaction and love and joy.

37:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And I will like, yeah, give me, give me four crew and like a selfish answer. [SPEAKER_00]: The beings, if you've been on that flight with your best friend or your, you know, a relative, it might have been even better, right? [SPEAKER_02]: A hundred percent. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

38:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Alex, what about you? [SPEAKER_01]: Mine is mine's also single for actually, but it's the my whenever I'm asked this question that I always give the same three examples and the three thing the thing that the three having common is that. [SPEAKER_01]: each of them are not commercial flights per se.

38:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why they're just so unbelievably special, because in first place is definitely the Singapore A318 new first class of the same cabin that you were just talking about, the delivery from Toulouse to Singapore. [SPEAKER_01]: That was unbelievable. [SPEAKER_01]: That mean that that followed 12 years of planning and investment from Singapore Airlines.

38:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're in this unbelievably beautiful first class suite and we were over Iran at the time, [SPEAKER_01]: and they dimmed all the lights everywhere in the cabin, because there was a once and 75 year meteor shower. [SPEAKER_01]: So we sat on the swivel chair, facing the windows. [SPEAKER_01]: and shooting stars everywhere.

39:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, is this real life? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how could this be a thing? [SPEAKER_01]: And it was. [SPEAKER_01]: So that was, that was like the goose bumpy example. [SPEAKER_01]: That's my favorite. [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other two, one of them is the air Mauritius, A350, again, the delivery because the Prime Minister wanted us to do a lap of the mountains.

39:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were in this like new aircraft, a 90 degree angle, like in turbulence [SPEAKER_01]: really close to the mountains while everyone below a cheering and taking photos and that was wild. [SPEAKER_01]: That was amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: I had Kurt Hoffman who's an aviation industry legend sitting next to me in business and he kept looking at me looking at the window looking at me and saying to me, we're not going to make it because they were just so, so close to it.

39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It just was so rogue, all of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Then the third one was very similar. [SPEAKER_01]: Was a Swiss performance flight. [SPEAKER_01]: as part of this sent Moritz ski championship where the C series at the time, now the A220 was performing with the Patrui Swiss, the like Swiss version of the Red arrows and we were we were doing like stunts in this empty aircraft and there was no crew, there was excessive G-force, my phone was floating, I had to sign a waiver that [SPEAKER_01]: in the event of an accident, I would be able to try and help get the pilots out.

40:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It was wild. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't tell my parents about it. [SPEAKER_01]: I told them after I once had survived it. [SPEAKER_01]: It was crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, those are my top three all in first place equally. [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, I remember that your photos from that Swiss flight that just looked absolutely crazy.

40:41 [SPEAKER_00]: We're just lasting on this topic. [SPEAKER_00]: What is one airline that both of you think is actually bad, but it's masquerading as a good airfine. [SPEAKER_00]: Have a restore with you, Alex. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm going to hand it to Nicky first while I think I need to have I need to have a thing because we're all going to be like, I'm going to say it down.

41:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so ready. [SPEAKER_01]: Dan, you go. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say this. [SPEAKER_00]: The heat train continues. [SPEAKER_00]: There's been like several weeks now where I've just been bullying this airline for no reason because I love the country. [SPEAKER_00]: I think Erlang is good in some ways, but I do think that [SPEAKER_00]: Swiss, and I'm sorry Swiss people.

41:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they get way too much praise and they're seen as way much more premium for long whole specifically than they actually are. [SPEAKER_00]: I Yeah, I just feel that Swiss is they need a bit of a revamp. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously they're getting one with their E350s But for now They're not what people say they are in my opinion.

41:48 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you make of that Niki? [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think I sort of hear that and I think that comes from a place of like, it's not that I don't think I think they're a good airline, but maybe they're it's the perception just even higher than that. [SPEAKER_02]: And if I was going to choose one, I know it's sort of in the same bracket, but I would sort of say the same about Lufthansa, I think Lufthansa like again, not on their day is like really not great at all.

42:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Not to say that you can't have a great experience there, but it's another airline where like the the product you end up getting the aircraft you're on really matters Yeah, but I could totally imagine you having like a a swiss or a lift on the fly which is like incredibly disappointing But on the same day and other passenger having like one that's I delight yeah My sister in the same in in the same category is the same school of thought mine is Iberia.

42:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that that [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I'd be able to push themselves to be globally known as this great airline, but I think there is way more chance of you having a more negative experience on Iberia than a positive one, and I just think that it's not really spoken about much.

43:02 [SPEAKER_01]: They're in the category of airlines that seem to just get away with it, because anytime I have flown [SPEAKER_01]: a crew or staff interactions where the staff are rude or abrupt or gossiping in the galley and don't really want to be working. [SPEAKER_01]: The food is mediocre. [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's good.

43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's more often than it's not. [SPEAKER_01]: The cabin is nothing even remotely revolutionary. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very catalogue. [SPEAKER_01]: The IFEs kind of behind everyone else. [SPEAKER_01]: Just a very very mediocre [SPEAKER_01]: leaning towards negative. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I just think that's how you really feel Alex.

43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what you know. [SPEAKER_01]: I speak about it. [SPEAKER_00]: The only part of this I would disagree with is that I don't necessarily know if I be area is mask or reading is good. [SPEAKER_00]: I just think that in general people, I don't know where people are going. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I be area is.

43:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a lot of mixed feelings there for sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was, that's what I was going to say as well. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think, I think you would hear, I think like your average person on the street has quite a high perception of a Swiss. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not the same of an Iberia.

44:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I've had some Iberia shockers. [SPEAKER_02]: It is the crew, like the crew. [SPEAKER_02]: I actually had the last time I threw the Iberia was on, we flew to the US on the 321, the new one and that was actually really nice and the crew were great, I really enjoyed that actually, but I have one of my worst, it's one of my worst travel experiences, I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Senegal and I went to Sen

44:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, this is probably like five years ago. [SPEAKER_02]: We did this really cool thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I've got a friend who's um, uh, anti female genital mutilation campaigner. [SPEAKER_02]: She's called NIMCO Ali. [SPEAKER_02]: Then if you ever come across her, she's I'm so amazing. [SPEAKER_02]: And we went to this, um, anti FGM, um, convention and we used our points to like fly some activists across Africa.

44:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really cool. [SPEAKER_01]: I remember seeing this. [SPEAKER_01]: I remember definitely remembering seeing this. [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it was it was a really like it was really incredible experience and but but not flying home which was from Dakar to through Madrid on a 321 but like a you know like a short haul config of 321 where they have those space savers seats whatever they're actually called.

45:22 [SPEAKER_02]: and I was sat down the back somewhere and the flight was like it was one of those where it was like you know like a 2 a.m. departure or something that got into Madrid. [SPEAKER_02]: It was maybe I think it's like a 5 hour flight and got into Madrid at like 6.7 and it was like something like that to red eye.

45:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was awful, everything about it, like all the people like the crew on there were all miserable, tired, didn't want to be there, the product was terrible and then actually like we got to we had a layover Madrid for like I think three or four hours and went to the Velasque Velasque lounge wherever [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, I really like that lounge to be fair.

46:07 [SPEAKER_02]: In four, is it four S? [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes [SPEAKER_02]: with a, with a broom, like a, not broom, a mop, a mop, a mop with a mop.

46:38 [SPEAKER_02]: She was like, in shouting at me and Spanish being like, wake up, wake up, get up. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, can't you just leave me to sleep? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, nobody's here. [SPEAKER_02]: I literally woken up with a stick. [SPEAKER_02]: And then being in my stick. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'd like got up and anyway, then flew back to London, which was, that whole performance was like pretty pretty dreadful.

46:55 [SPEAKER_01]: The, you know, that, that lounge in that exact corridor, leading to that restaurant. [SPEAKER_01]: They [SPEAKER_01]: In 2021, I was sat around that corner because it was still very much kind of COVID times. [SPEAKER_01]: And the rest of the lounge was really busy, but that bit that you just described was empty.

47:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was sat there and there was a woman. [SPEAKER_01]: She was a staff member. [SPEAKER_01]: She was with a trolley collecting like empties, but my wasn't. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's loads of empties that I was wasn't doing it. [SPEAKER_01]: Unless she's moving up and down. [SPEAKER_01]: She was so unwell and she was coughing and coughing and coughing and she shouldn't have been at work, right?

47:33 [SPEAKER_01]: The poor woman was absolutely sick, okay, but the bit that's just stating my mind about this bloody lounge is that [SPEAKER_01]: Every time she had these coughing fits and was coughing everywhere and not covering. [SPEAKER_01]: And I glanced, she kept clogging that I was glancing and then was telling her colleague like, what happened to her cough or child or child he's getting angry.

47:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So then she just kept coming near like a magnet, she's hovering by me. [SPEAKER_01]: coughing and coughing and coughing, and I was like, only I beer it. [SPEAKER_01]: I said, I can't say it. [SPEAKER_01]: Only they would enjoy this, obviously it was a one, or if it was an employee or whatever, having a bad day, but that was in that exact corridor for the same reason.

48:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just trying to escape everyone else. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's bad. [SPEAKER_00]: That's really bad. [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: That's all. [SPEAKER_01]: When, um, obviously, when we see each other abroad and we're in different [SPEAKER_01]: markets and countries and we're in different cities.

48:30 [SPEAKER_01]: The benefit of something that we will show in common, the benefit of what we will get to do is that flying connects you from A to B. [SPEAKER_01]: So ultimately we see a lot of the world and we end up in some great places and some not so great places. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that when you travel as much as we do, I would say that we have a pretty good take around the standing on where's hot and and where's not and that's why we [SPEAKER_01]: your take on this, where do you think that we, especially this year, there are so many destinations people are talking and talking about or they're mentioning for the first time that we may be a travel years ago, whereas overhyped, basically, is what I'm building up to in your opinion, Nicky, and that also on the other side, whereas very much underrated.

49:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I've got two, I've got two overhypes and they're sort of similar and I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't, I [SPEAKER_02]: Or, we're not even if you're in Asia.

49:43 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're in Aussie, let's say, like I get it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I Bali is Bali is your Mallorca or a beef. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's such a slap from Europe. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not easy to get to in its far. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, are there elements of it that I agree?

49:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Was it great in the past? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, sure, but to me, it's like, it's a long way to go for what you get there when there are such incredible places in Asia. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, barley for me is just not it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I, and the same thing goes for, well, and this is on limited experience.

50:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I went to Fiji. [SPEAKER_02]: a couple of weeks ago, and it was like shockingly mediocre. [SPEAKER_02]: But, caveat, I was staying in like a pretty enough hotel. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't leave Nadie, so I'm sure they're on gorgeous islands, amazing places you can go to. [SPEAKER_02]: But, but I was still in Fiji, and you could have booked a holiday and gone there imagining this incredible, it's all to everyone when I came outside.

50:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, how is Fiji? [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, honestly, it was like being a benedome. [SPEAKER_02]: And this is like, and not that I have a problem, I actually were like, I'm a bit obsessed with the idea of benedome, but if I travel 24 hours across the world and then walked into where I was staying and this was what I was met with.

50:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I came through the lobby and through the lobby, you might've seen this on my Instagram, was a pool full of Aussie's and Kiwis in the swimming pool doing Aqua Aerobix to Gangnam Style. [SPEAKER_01]: Blasting out over the speakers and I was just like no like not like you've not coming this far to see that I remember the first the first association I had a phigi was as you said a very kind of European thought of it where I thought would like phigi wow exotic [SPEAKER_01]: You know, middle of nowhere on the other side of the earth, difficult to get to, but once you're there, it's going to look like a Microsoft Windows screen cyber and all this.

51:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I can remember mentioning Fiji to my cousins whilst in Australia, and they were like, ew. [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, what? [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, no, I'm going to Fiji. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Fiji, that's, again, the other side of the coin, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's pretty convenient for them and they kind of know the demographic that go and have kind of [SPEAKER_01]: that demographic has kind of infiltrated and chipped away at the, maybe what was once authentic Fiji landscape.

51:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, I don't, I must say like, I'm sure there is incredible incredible parts of Fiji, but like, if you're like, don't try and leave research carefully, and especially if you're going to travel that far. [SPEAKER_02]: am I am I underrated and I don't know I think it's I think you you will argue with me and say it's not underrated but I think it's just coming into its own is South Korea which is like really rising at the moment like with um K-pop Korean skincare all these things that have really hit the global stage people are thinking and talking about South Korean in particular soul a lot more [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's, we're going to see it pinching tourists that would have previously gone to Japan looking for a similar thing.

52:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it really, in my view, doesn't compete with Japan in terms of like history and so different. [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool. [SPEAKER_02]: And all of that. [SPEAKER_02]: And, but, but. [SPEAKER_02]: As a destination, I think it's absolutely incredible, amazing food, amazing shopping, amazing people, super easy place to be an experience and enjoy, Virgin Atlantic, or launching direct flights again from London, start on the spring.

53:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know whether more people will start doing that, be a used to fly that it fly anymore, there's plenty of direct connections from the US. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that is going to continue to grow as a hotspot, and I think it's over at least so. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we both echo that sentiment, right?

53:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Alex? [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely for Korea, but I just, I also worry about Korea now, because I worry the impact of TikTok and the way in which now everyone is super aware of it and they want to go because [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want it to be spoiled, but then it's such a big place and even so as to see us so huge that it's, you know, Nicky didn't you find when we were there or you were just there this week, but when we were there early in the year, that when you are around some of the key sites or in the little market area or in Hongdae or ever, you're still actually not coming across very many tourists at all.

54:12 [SPEAKER_02]: no, not at all. [SPEAKER_02]: And to be honest, like I think I hear what you say about it being big, becoming over-tourist did. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that is very difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very unlikely that happens in a big city like Seoul. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that becomes a big risk for somewhere like Bali, for example, where it's like island life, much smaller places.

54:38 [SPEAKER_02]: a big influx of tourists. [SPEAKER_02]: You completely change the face of it. [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas like, you know, how many millions of tourists come to London or Paris or whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: And nobody, no one's, you don't say that it's tourists don't ruin big cities, but they definitely ruin like can ruin smaller resources or beach places or islands or things like that.

55:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very true. [SPEAKER_00]: I think like especially in Tokyo you feel that because you expect to land and just be surrounded by tourists because there's so many people going to Japan and you definitely feel that in Kyoto or Nara but in Tokyo I mean yes there's maybe more than Seoul but it's the same it's such a big city that it would be almost impossible for tourists to ever feel like during the way in most places because there's so many locals as well going about their days everywhere.

55:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you think about like, are you changing the face of what it is day-to-day and it's and the smaller the place the easier it is for that to happen, but it's huge cities I think it's very difficult. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask just a small tangent because I was in New York quite a bit during COVID and it was like the best time I've ever had in New York because there were no tourists.

55:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you guys feel that way about London that London was really, I mean, I guess London wasn't as restricted because there was like almost two years where European tourists couldn't go to the US. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel that there was a period in London where it was like, oh, it actually is so [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't like London.

56:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a nice quiet. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't like it especially. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't especially London after the pandemic. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel is just a different place. [SPEAKER_01]: If I am not nostalgic about London, it's like London 2015-2016, then I feel something started to happen close to COVID and then COVID definitely ruined it.

56:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I don't know, Nicky. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel maybe a bit different. [SPEAKER_02]: I do really love London. [SPEAKER_02]: I've lived here for about 16 years now. [SPEAKER_02]: And I do love it. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't get this feeling of like, our tourists are ruining the place.

56:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I think COVID was not so great in that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there was less people about, but actually, like, lots of stuff was closed, our restrictions on entertainment restaurants there. [SPEAKER_02]: It was enough weather. [SPEAKER_02]: It was enough weather for so long. [SPEAKER_02]: And it really, like, as a resident of the city, wanting to go out and have fun here.

57:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think we really benefited. [SPEAKER_02]: I did have some very magical moments like we all did in those times. [SPEAKER_02]: I remember on years, New Year's Eve 2020. [SPEAKER_02]: going for a run through central London and there was literally nobody on the streets and it was very It was running down Regent Street and there was I was the only person.

57:37 [SPEAKER_02]: It was like a pop elliptic Yeah, so like but other than like those kind of very unique magic sort of 30 minute experiences I'd say overall like [SPEAKER_02]: No, however, I did one of my most undoubt trips in that period. [SPEAKER_02]: I went to Rome and in July 2020 and that was a mind-blowing experience where there was really no nobody was about, like I went to the Coliseum on their like dusk tour thing, which I imagine usually would be overrun with a million people and there was about 10 of us in the whole Coliseum, and so I think that that was where the magic was for me, but um, [SPEAKER_01]: What's your favorite European cities speaking of Rome?

58:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, favorite European city. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't like, in the way that sounds like you don't love London. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't love Paris, personally. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very intense to them. [SPEAKER_02]: I love London. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's funny. [SPEAKER_00]: London is my favorite in Europe.

58:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a fan of like pretty much every. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a pretty like like key person. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I've sort of find value anywhere. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, that's a really wishy wishy answer. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna say, actually, but Liz, Liz, Lisbon's one. [SPEAKER_01]: I love Rome.

58:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I love Rome. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Lisbon doesn't feel very European. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel it in just not, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like the the geography of Lisbon doesn't feel very European. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it has so much to offer because it's city.

59:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just by the water. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also, [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's a very South American very Brazilian, very, you know, could be like Buenos Aires or like, you know, maybe Buenos Aires feels more piracy. [SPEAKER_02]: But no, I know what you mean. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

59:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: We need to be very quick. [SPEAKER_00]: Alex, quick. [SPEAKER_00]: What's your overhyped and underhyped destination? [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think I overhiked. [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many places. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll leave that.

59:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But they're underrated. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't have. [SPEAKER_01]: yet more this happened yesterday someone said to me oh he's already thinking about next summer okay you know very enough you're planning early blah blah blah said he's never been to Greece some like well you should definitely go to Greece he's like okay but I looked at flights to Santorini or Mikanos I'm like not Santorini or Mikanos yeah like the in the underrated category I just feel if there is so much that the Greek Highlands that are lesser known [SPEAKER_01]: who is thinking about where to go, let's say, much onwards to think about discovering something that I think they were falling in love with.

1:00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And Dan, you know that I was a big advocate for your trip that you just took now in summer and I told you, go here, go there, go here. [SPEAKER_01]: These are places that people have learned of and yet you're going to have an amazing time. [SPEAKER_01]: But all these, even islands that are more known to Greeks but are less known to everyone else, like Milos and Naxos and Siffnos and all [SPEAKER_01]: You can do so much without the horror of everything that comes unfortunately in the summer months with, let's say, Santorini, where everyone is queuing to take the same photo of the same blue dome.

1:00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, you realize that there is, that's not actual, this is just stand a great culture that exists on other islands as well, not just on Santorini, which is beautiful, but I would say that May would be the cutoff month. [SPEAKER_01]: the other Greek islands. [SPEAKER_01]: Go for it.

1:01:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: I like what I need you to send me that list. [SPEAKER_02]: I've got shift noises on what shift noises on my my bucket list, but I need an angel. [SPEAKER_02]: I need the list for you. [SPEAKER_01]: We need to we need to gatekeep to an extent, but I'll send you a list of them.

1:01:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I trust you'll do what's right for us. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll do quick, quick, overrated to me is because it's just not my [SPEAKER_00]: It's like it's just like a certain vibe that some people love, I just, I don't know, it's not my cup of tea specifically in Berlin for some reason. [SPEAKER_02]: underrated.

1:01:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, underrated, Uzbekistan, amazing country to travel to. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the best trips Oscar and I have ever done, highly recommend a trip there, truly underrated. [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, it's been up and coming for a while. [SPEAKER_00]: Abs, yeah, huge potential and very nice.

1:02:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm desperate to go there. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious down. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Kazakhstan too. [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many cool countries that just get forgotten in the middle. [SPEAKER_02]: I've been at the closest to anywhere like that I've been as Mongolia, which I went there for about eight days, it was in 2010, it was absolutely incredible.

1:02:33 [SPEAKER_02]: But other than that, like Central Asia, I haven't been anywhere, but I really have it in my head that I want to go as Beckastown in Kazakhstan. [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, as Beckastown in Kurgustown, I just have this thing about head, like I just have to go there. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you? [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't done the Uzbek what done, but Dan, since your video is in Uzbekstan, I think the wow, I should not have left Kazakhstan without going to Uzbekstan as well.

1:02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I'm going to quickly move us into another piece, which is that we, we received a lot of questions from listeners about this predominantly to, to download myself, but I wanted to bring it up in today's episode, knowing that we had Nikki here. [SPEAKER_01]: Because this year, as we now start to reflect on it, as we, as we're in the final final, final weeks of 2025, this year wasn't great for air travel in terms of the incidents [SPEAKER_01]: right, and there were some very high-profile ones, of course, there was the American flight that ended up tragically colliding with the helicopter and was down into the river in DC, just stones throw away from the White House in the middle of the night.

1:03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: We have, of course, the Air India accident, which again was the video footage was everywhere within seconds, [SPEAKER_01]: high profile accident that was high profile because of the way in which it was just so shocking and not what we expect. [SPEAKER_01]: When these happen, Dan and I continue to fly and we get these messages as to if we ever feel nervous or if any of this ever plays on our minds and we are pragmatic people, we know that air travel is the safest for more transport and so on.

1:04:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: I wondered if you had ever felt uneasy, or if you'd because I mean, you touched on it at the start of the episode. [SPEAKER_01]: You said that your sister has said, was nervous about flying and ended up becoming cadencour. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think I never really had these kind of worries around Travon, was never nervous.

1:04:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think in more recent years, I've had this, I've had this like, this intrusive thought of the star of the star of flights where I'm a bit like, oh, my dial on this one. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very fleeting and it's not a fear thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a physical feeling of fear.

1:04:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But it comes out of nowhere and then it goes away. [SPEAKER_02]: I have had a couple of times recently with turbulence, I don't mind at all. [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't worry me, but I have had recently some quite bad turbulence on approach and that actually makes me feel a little more nervous and it happened.

1:05:16 [SPEAKER_02]: we were on approach into where did I where was I just flying into DC last week into DCA and it what I was on and we were on an ember air and it was like you know when you know that feeling when you're like you're really like flying flying around the place and we were probably 1500 feet in the back of my mind I'm like oh that could be a go around that's [SPEAKER_02]: And then it starts to end to your mind being like wait a minute like this doesn't feel normal.

1:05:47 [SPEAKER_02]: This feels like way more like Crazy than I've experienced before and then you and then you get in your head a bit and you're like is this all okay? [SPEAKER_02]: And then I heard like some like They're calling on the Yeah on the pew The phones on the like on the intercom thing as if like [SPEAKER_02]: One of the crew is calling another crew, whatever, and then you're a bit like Shit when that that that becomes worry and I got actually like I could feel fair like a physical fear response Yeah, so that was only last week, but that's very very rare You could I could be three getting thrown around in the air and I wouldn't be that bothered actually on a recent China Airlines flight We were flying from Singapore to Taipei

1:06:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I've ever had anything as bad as this before. [SPEAKER_02]: It was a full-on, you know, like a mid-air, like a kind of cleat clip with a collic clear-out clip. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It was like a full-like, like bang, bang, bang, drop, like, you know, that feeling of like you drop a thousand feet in like a second.

1:06:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And everyone was like, the whole plane screamed at the same time. [SPEAKER_02]: That's when you know it's like bad ever, [SPEAKER_02]: But that actually was like, it was quite a short experience and that I wasn't scared by that, but that was like crazy, but I think that stuff is feels like that's happening more and more.

1:07:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're trying to figure out, aren't we? [SPEAKER_01]: If it's genuinely happening, if it's increasing or if it's just that it's always on social media, so we always feel that we're seeing more of it, because all of the different stakeholders in the industry and the ones that are genuinely tracking this for different airlines insist that the data shows that it's [SPEAKER_01]: happening more.

1:07:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But then there is also data. [SPEAKER_01]: I had to do a broadcast on the BBC a few weeks ago where this one scientist said that he his study had proven that it is happening further. [SPEAKER_01]: But the it is happening more. [SPEAKER_01]: But the airlines disagreed with it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely I just thought maybe like we were say the best advice.

1:07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: if anyone had any concern, even if you didn't have a concern, is you remember that the aircraft is not in danger, it's yourself and you don't want to hit your head. [SPEAKER_01]: This is quite simple isn't it? [SPEAKER_01]: When you can then keep that perspective and you realise that actually having the seatbelt loosely fastened, then protects you from that, then you're fine.

1:08:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that I think 99% of people in that scenario, [SPEAKER_01]: and not thinking about how they might hit the head, they're just thinking that the plane is in trouble. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with that. [SPEAKER_02]: Because I've also read that there seems to be like more scientific reports saying that like, with climate change and other changes like it is more prevalent.

1:08:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And also I guess like keep putting more planes in the sky, more flights than you've got more chance of more happening, but yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Done. [SPEAKER_01]: Done. [SPEAKER_01]: We're we're uneasy about etrophic control, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was just going to say, but I want to to anyone who scared of flying like genuinely skip.

1:08:37 [SPEAKER_00]: You should we should have put the warning up front, but skip this because ultimately it's still very, very irrational and there's no reason to be scared of flying because it is the safest mode of transport still it is much safer than your drive to the airport. [SPEAKER_00]: It's safer than laying in your bed at night, you're more likely to die from falling out of bed than in a plane crash.

1:09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So just remember these things as we say this, but yeah, I think Alex and I are both very nervous. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I actually, unfortunately, increasingly find that every time I'm on a approach or taking off from somewhere, I know it's very busy airspace-wise. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm slightly holding my breath.

1:09:22 [SPEAKER_00]: until we reach an altitude right you know that until I know that we're at an altitude where we're on our little highway we're good to go we're at an altitude where planes won't be you know flying in different directions toward us but there's just some air spaces where there's not a very clear path the planes take when they you know are departing or landing where they just sort of send them around and around their random ways [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I'm a bit nervous, flying at lower altitude, especially if it's cloudy, surflying through clouds and you're like, they can't see anyone else.

1:09:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know the aircraft had built in systems to avoid collisions, but yeah, it's just that those parts of flight where I don't trust the people outside the plane to pay attention to us and take care of us. [SPEAKER_01]: It's only because as you say, your nerves in this area are just linked with the solid reporting on the fact that we have documented issues week after week that are concerning air traffic control and the correct separation of aircraft and all of that.

1:10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is if anyone is going to be concerned about anything, then as an industry, I think the industry is very concerned about that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't see a solution ahead. [SPEAKER_01]: I would be concerned about that and concerned about whether or not the pilots have had a decent might sleep.

1:10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, you know, pilots are human and they go through divorce and they have bad days and they have difficulties and whatever and mental health and all of that is also an additional worry. [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think there are legitimate reasons as to why someone would feel it, not that I want to be fueling anyone's fear right now, but I think the reality is most people that feel uneasy when they do fly, none of those reasons are playing, none of those [SPEAKER_01]: turbulence, he calls planes in trouble, he calls that they're not going to make it or something awful like that, when actually, you know, as you say, it's safe as form of transport and, and on the whole world, all right.

1:11:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the thing like with all of us, you know, in the many hundreds of flights, we've probably taken even between the three of us in the last year and then beyond, like, I have never been in this, I've never been on a flight where there's even the remotest sniff of danger. [SPEAKER_02]: Even even when you're a bit like all shit this turbulence is a lot like there's no I've never been in any kind of like unsafe situation ever So that I'm which sort of speak it So speak that's good.

1:11:42 [SPEAKER_02]: That's good. [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: I did have I did have my first I did have my first I version the medical diversion this year though, which was like a really crazy experience [SPEAKER_02]: and it was actually quite an interesting experience, but the best bit of it all from an avgate perspective was that we diverted to gander, which as a person who wow, I am an aviation and musical theatre obsessive, and of course definitely, yeah, where come from away as bet is set.

1:12:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously, if you don't know the musical, it's about 9-11 when a huge amount of planes were hat to diver in land and Ganda was one airport where I think about 20 aircraft landed and this tiny Canadian town in Newfoundland, hat to [SPEAKER_02]: Absorb all these people coming off the planes on 9 and 11 anyway, so landing there was like there was something like super cool about it And um, and also thankfully the the guy who had it was an old man.

1:12:37 [SPEAKER_02]: It had a hard to tack and he He was he was found not breathing and Heart wasn't beating and the amazing virgin crew actually resuscitated him on board [SPEAKER_02]: landed in Ganda with the guy lying in the bar area of the of the dream liner the virgin dream liner with one of the crew members just lying across him like in a kind of cross shape like him lying in one direction and her perpendicular over the top of him to try and keep him on the ground when they landed the plane couldn't get him back in a sea [SPEAKER_02]: It was a really like crazy experience that was like the closest to emergency, although it wasn't nothing to do with equipment or aircraft, there was a human emergency, but watching like the procedures all be put in action.

1:13:19 [SPEAKER_02]: In the most safe way, it was really amazing to watch that actually, put a lot of faith in like the procedures that airlines have in place. [SPEAKER_00]: That's nice to hear. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_00]: What's the experience? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is. [SPEAKER_01]: We, what you said, version Atlantic, it's a small segue into a quick thought often on the podcast and usually when we have a bit more time, so we'll try and keep it brief.

1:13:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But we do a segment known as if we ran and listeners writing and with different airlines suggestions and basically very off the [SPEAKER_01]: insert airline name, so the segment is if we ran.gov, given that, as I said, the three of us will have the UK income and that we are all born there, we also fly B.A.

1:14:04 [SPEAKER_01]: quite a bit. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, although I don't think you fly B.A. [SPEAKER_01]: as much as, for example, fly Virgin, is that fair? [SPEAKER_01]: me. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I think, um, no, I think I probably fly BA more because especially because we're short haul when you add in.

1:14:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm flying a lot more. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I've, I've, I've tried Virgin Virgin a fair bit, but yeah, BA way more. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, anyway, you're super familiar with BA as, as, as both of us are what would you do? [SPEAKER_01]: if you were to run the UK flag carrier.

1:14:37 [SPEAKER_01]: What does it get right? [SPEAKER_01]: What does it get wrong? [SPEAKER_01]: What are the quick fixes that Nikki would implement followed by Dan and then I'll add anything if I hasn't been mentioned. [SPEAKER_02]: So just for quite a moment, I'm looking at my flighty passport. [SPEAKER_02]: I've so [SPEAKER_02]: Interestingly, last year, actually, it had 17 and I had 18 on virgins, so it just beat last year.

1:15:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So I've flown FlyBA a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: I think they get, again, when it comes to the subjectivity, you get people who just have one bad, they've gone one holiday a year and that's one thing is a bad flight and then they tarBA with this terrible brush, which I think is unfair. [SPEAKER_02]: I think BA is getting so much right.

1:15:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's been a few years now, but they're moved to Durinco for catering, has massively improved that onboard experience of what you're eating. [SPEAKER_02]: I really rate the food on board now. [SPEAKER_02]: I have consistently good experiences. [SPEAKER_02]: The biggest issue is inconsistency.

1:15:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So if I was running BA, it's like we have to be way more consistent with crew, service, and product, on but like the seats, that's the problem that just has to be fixed. [SPEAKER_02]: If you're a normal passenger and you're not like, how's and you don't know where to look, you don't know what you're gonna find on board and you may well be disappointed.

1:15:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Both on the short haul products, like even for me. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't work out if I'm on one of those planes that's got like half the back half of the 320 is like the miserable. [SPEAKER_02]: The rubbish. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, the where it changes after the exit row. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or like, you know, if you're on one of the, yeah, if you want, I think yes, row is it 14 and back or something.

1:16:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It depends. [SPEAKER_01]: It depends. [SPEAKER_01]: Usually it's just that if it's a CO and earlier CO, then like a classic version of a [SPEAKER_01]: then you're safe. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to be right near the front of economy. [SPEAKER_01]: If it's in me, oh, then the problem starts.

1:16:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Because yeah, with the neos, because it could be that bit, it also could be the newest neos, I think, have the new sea, which is on the whole aircraft, and they'll be nice. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're really lovely. [SPEAKER_01]: Have you had that? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had it. [SPEAKER_02]: Last year I had it.

1:16:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I have, and I keep saying to Dan, I've flown B.A. [SPEAKER_01]: so much this year, and even my sister, she was like, why have we not been on that plane that they showed at Farmbrows? [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, it doesn't really want my boat and I'll be there. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

1:16:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And she, that's what I was, we also is at Farmbrows, that I saw that for the first time, and then I just flew it to Farrow. [SPEAKER_02]: I went to Portugal, like a like 10 years ago, and it was on one of those aircraft. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, driving consistently, make every short haul aircraft that on BA and suddenly it's like, oh my god, okay, I know I'm going to have a nice seat in a nicer experience than I will on easy jet, but other ways like you have no either same with like the business class product long haul, which is like this big problem and then the other thing is just like get those A380s stripped out and refitted right away and have that as your new like flagship product, everybody loves an A380 and at the moment,

1:17:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing hearing crew say and passengers saying that actually avoiding flying the A380, not even because of the product, but because they go text so often that you're probably going to be delayed, you might get stuck when you are, because they could then not fly it. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, at least that fascinates me about the 380, so it's all done.

1:17:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Just on the 380, I am amazed that BA have let themselves get to a position where they just can't make the A380 work, [SPEAKER_01]: chatting in forums about avoiding it because it goes tech and they're blaming the author 18. [SPEAKER_01]: It's always the author 18. [SPEAKER_01]: There is a meanwhile come over to this region where it's all author 18 and they've got a 98 to 99% dispatch reliability meaning it's almost always fine without a 15 minute tech delay.

1:18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe BA have got to a place known for very decent sound maintenance. [SPEAKER_01]: I've got to a place where they're just letting the author [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to ask quickly, Nikki, what is your opinion about BA first? [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that it gets too much hate that it's the hate is like justified?

1:18:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, again, I think let's let's let's throw context into it. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, [SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to compare it against like Singapore or Emirates or whoever, like obviously you're not going to find a like for like experience? [SPEAKER_02]: And again, what are you actually paying for it?

1:19:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, if you're paying for less than what you might pay on business class on some other airlines, inevitably, if you're paying cash, you probably not, like it's probably going to be quite expensive. [SPEAKER_02]: But I actually think again, on its day, it's a really great experience.

1:19:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I flew at the beginning of this year. [SPEAKER_02]: Was it the beginning of this year? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, down to Joe Berg, on BA first, on the A380, actually. [SPEAKER_02]: And I had an absolutely brilliant experience. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I actually really liked for the A380's faults. [SPEAKER_02]: The first class cabin is actually more spacious on my aircraft than it is on other aircraft [SPEAKER_02]: the crew were amazing, the food is exceptional, the seat was grey, I find it super comfy, does it have loads of privacy, no, some of those new ones have a door like flying, but actually that's something I'm not really that bothered about.

1:19:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So like judging it for kind of what it is and not against competitors, like I think it gets a bit of a bad rep. [SPEAKER_00]: But what about compared to even Lufthansa's Swiss and our friends? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, our friends are in a different price category completely, but Lufthansa and Swiss versus BA.

1:20:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So then when you compare it against the competition, it's just not like it's just not achieving what it needs to achieve. [SPEAKER_02]: And also like I'm excited to see and I'll reserve my judgment to what that product's going to be the new first is going to be like on the A380.

1:20:32 [SPEAKER_02]: But my concern with that is they haven't gone far enough. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they've got the opportunity to do something kind of really like really out there. [SPEAKER_02]: Not even out there, do you know, just like really max out and you've got the space in the A380, you can do whatever you want and I'm not It looks really nice.

1:20:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It looks kind of chic, but I just think it may be it's It's another great business. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a really good business. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just not impressive not sort of stand out Are you a B.A. [SPEAKER_02]: First Hater down at she? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the thing is I just did a recorder review of it about a month ago and [SPEAKER_00]: I have to say, unfortunately, the video will not be very positive, but I think when you see it you'll see why and it gets into what I would try to fix about BA, which is I really think that their employees, their crew, their ground staff, are their best resource.

1:21:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Brits, I'm gonna say, stay my opinion, are the most lovely Europeans, potentially with Irish people. [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many, [SPEAKER_00]: warm, helpful, funny people. [SPEAKER_00]: So the staff are their best resource, but I don't think they're training them nearly enough for what they should do.

1:21:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's there's two parts of this. [SPEAKER_00]: The first is that even BA employees sort of think BA is a joke now. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a narrative in the UK that BA is had a downfall. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the crew reflects that a lot of the time to the passengers. [SPEAKER_00]: They know that, yeah, it's a bit of a joke, this food.

1:22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry about this food, this or that. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think there needs to be a really strong effort to make the crew proud of working for BA and give them something to be proud of. [SPEAKER_00]: And the second part of that is giving them proper service training, especially for people working in premium cabins or working in the premium lounges.

1:22:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just, you know, I just learned that Emirates gives six weeks of service training alone to someone who's going to work in first class, four weeks to work in business. [SPEAKER_00]: I think in most of Europe, it's a couple days at most of service training to work these cabins. [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's expensive, but using the great resource that there's be a staff, and that's very profitable.

1:22:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that that can make a huge difference because on this flight, I mean, just a little preview for the video that I took, the crew was so lovely, so well intentioned, but for example, I boarded, and no, I mean, this is like first class problems to Lux, first world problems to Lux, but [SPEAKER_00]: I- they just say, here you see, we'll be T-a-left, so am I.

1:23:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay fine. [SPEAKER_00]: You watch your seat. [SPEAKER_00]: I sat there for 20 minutes as the crew was chatting in the- in the galley. [SPEAKER_00]: And no one came to offer a drink or a towel, anything. [SPEAKER_00]: For that happen in first, is just crazy, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And again, this is like, this all comes back to like judging, judging a product for what it holds itself out to be.

1:23:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is, and I think if you asked, be, you know, this is like, yeah, sure, first world problems. [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't get a hot towel. [SPEAKER_02]: But like, that's what, that, those sort of, that... [SPEAKER_02]: feeling of luxury being looked after, being guided to your seat, being called by your name, all that kind of stuff is what creates this thing which they purport to set, that's what they're selling.

1:24:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't get it, it's fair to criticize it. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and actually like at last year I had of I went down to Joe somewhere on Qatar. [SPEAKER_02]: We flew back BA first from Singapore. [SPEAKER_02]: And it was, that was an experience on the triple seven, which was not great, and the crew were not great on that flight.

1:24:24 [SPEAKER_02]: They were disinterested, but it was really like ruined, and they were negative ruined the whole experience. [SPEAKER_02]: And I've realised I'm quite fickle, and crew attitude, like makes or breaks are like completely for me. [SPEAKER_02]: And by comparison, this flight down to Joe Berg was amazing because the crew were like attentive but also just like fun and like they they they they were I don't know so yeah they show personality [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which BA allows them to do, but I think you're right, like ramp up that training for everybody and they could excel even more.

1:25:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_01]: What about you? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all the little bits and pieces that they can do. [SPEAKER_01]: For God's sake, all to out the on board Wi-Fi, you know, standardize it a bit. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't leave us on a hour daytime flights to the US with no Wi-Fi at all, which is a nightmare for business.

1:25:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's literally called business class. [SPEAKER_01]: People are supposed to be able to do business and conduct business. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, that drives me mad. [SPEAKER_01]: The roulette, again, with that. [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, Dan, when I was going to Montreal, and I was saying to you, but how do I know if my 787-8 has the Wi-Fi or not?

1:25:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, it didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's all that. [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's that bit about, you know, they're not, they're very expensive tickets on the whole for people that are buying, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And so to be offered a meal straight off to take off on the moment, you say, hmm, I might not want to have that.

1:25:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you don't get an element of [SPEAKER_01]: My friend just flew for the first time to he flew first to LA and he just couldn't understand the what he described to me is the lack of food on board because he felt that they're just he said there wasn't I said of course there was food you had a full menu there were different options but he felt that it was very much this all that and then this of that and nothing else and he and it's not that he has super high expectations he just said that [SPEAKER_01]: for the price, and for what he was paying, and he was paying about 11K, then he expected something little bit more, so Tim, well, that's where you went wrong.

1:26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You should have gone to print as anyone knows, like, you're terrified of him. [SPEAKER_02]: I do think you can be your judgment, can be clouded if you're used to flying, cut off, for example, where you can die in on demand. [SPEAKER_02]: But I'd say, on the whole, like, a lot of experiences are like, a lot of business classes, you're fed when you're told you're being fed.

1:26:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, so so I but I think if you get if you're used to the alternative that's quite a big difference on my flight as you The Asia on a flight last night. [SPEAKER_02]: They serve the first meal when we at yes, they we've they serve the first meal Shortly after take off fine. [SPEAKER_02]: I was ready for it But they serve the second meal like six hours into the 15 hour flight and I wasn't actually ready to eat but that was kind of the only option And they did have a whole snack menu and later on.

1:27:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I had some ramen, but like if you wanted that meal then it was then or [SPEAKER_02]: not at all and I think that's probably a more common experience for most airlines. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like airlines that you hand-boss your levian water. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to go further into what we could do with the A, B, A, have a like if we ran B, A, I would have them collaborate with our co-panner.

1:27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Just take it. [SPEAKER_01]: But yes, thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Final quick one. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll do a quick round here. [SPEAKER_01]: OK, fly or buy. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to read a list. [SPEAKER_01]: OK, if you call fly, it means that it's something that we should. [SPEAKER_01]: We should be keeping your for it.

1:27:48 [SPEAKER_01]: We should be having buy bits of explanatory. [SPEAKER_01]: We need to get rid of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Seat back IFE. [SPEAKER_01]: So, how do you feel about no seatback IFE in France, Tommat, but instead having solid, fast, Wi-Fi-like styling, fly or buy? [SPEAKER_02]: Fly.

1:28:05 [SPEAKER_02]: 100% don't care about the IFE. [SPEAKER_02]: If the IFE for me is like, give me, uh, sorry, is this meant to be a quick fire? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm giving you an explanation. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious to hear in a, because we discuss this a few weeks ago as David's important or not, so I want to hear what you're...

1:28:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So, because I'm flying so much, I don't even take a risk on the entertainment. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I'm going to get. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't be bothered with, like, is it Bluetooth headphones? [SPEAKER_02]: Is it with the headphones? [SPEAKER_02]: Good, bye-bye, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have my iPad, I have loaded up everything that I want on there, and that entertainment-wise, that's everything I want.

1:28:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I love a moving map, I love love love, I can't a tail cam or whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: But a tail cam is, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: you don't get that's, you know, a rep that kind of rare for me these days, on the airlines I'm flying, but give me, I mean, Starlink have had my first couple of Starlink flights recently and most recently on Qatar.

1:28:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolute game changer, give me that all day long. [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's just so good. [SPEAKER_02]: And that plus my iPad definitely all I need. [SPEAKER_00]: You're right. [SPEAKER_00]: What about ULX? [SPEAKER_01]: I assume it's fly for you. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't necessarily need Starlink during the night.

1:29:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm less worried about if the departure is at 1 a.m. And I'm landing into Europe at 6 a.m. Starlink is not always an absolute must. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, then I think that's the kind of flight time where I think maybe I'll find a film I haven't watched for a sleep too. [SPEAKER_01]: So then I do want the IFE to be there.

1:29:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, if you've got a styling, you could just use Netflix and that is what I end up doing. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want, I was saying to Dan last week, on most of my flights recently, like just going back and forth and to Europe and wherever. [SPEAKER_01]: The way styling has changed behavior, I'm not turning on the screen, because why would I?

1:29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And also this other thing that I've just realized, which is that because you're forced to set in one position and one place and you're not being pulled left right in center. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not meeting up with a friend, you're not popping out, you're not going to a work meeting. [SPEAKER_01]: You are then with amazing Wi-Fi, able to be so productive, and finally checking on Amazon, that thing you were searching for, or replying to the email that you know in the back of the Adjom reply to for two weeks, or sending a bank transfer to an outstanding invoice, whatever.

1:30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You can catch up with so much because when our sincerity are we forced to sit still and write, don't move now, but yet you have all the resources you need to be productive. [SPEAKER_02]: completely agree in it in like when I get locked in I can have like a three-hour block great Wi-Fi I get more done honestly than I do in like a week oh yeah I agree and single our jets on eight hour flights plus fly or buy I'll buy it when business class if but what if there's a choice what will now body or [SPEAKER_02]: I'll take I'll take the white body this is still there's still something in under I'm just saying sexy about it if not knows.

1:31:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Dan. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, bye. [SPEAKER_00]: Over seven hours. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit of a stretch. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll say through 21 XLR team listening to this. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, see if all that work is enough. [SPEAKER_00]: The worst is for the crew.

1:31:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like I start feeling guilty for the crew ordering food and stuff when you know that they've spent eight hours with no rest and that tight galley. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's so. [SPEAKER_02]: Wait can I actually can I can I adjust let me adjust this question for you for both of you would you take so I'm let's say like choose the best product best business class product that you were on on a 350 a dream line or whatever [SPEAKER_02]: London connect in, you're going to Cincinnati, let's say, and you can either fly like London and connect in New York and Boston, but you get to fly whatever wide body of your choice, and then you can then connect on to Cincinnati, or you can fly direct on an Arab body.

1:32:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I would probably connect to the artist. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, see, I would connect, but I'm [SPEAKER_01]: You know, very worried about connecting in the U.S. With just how long it takes. [SPEAKER_01]: I would connect by staying in New York for what? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe like today.

1:32:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Any situation like that that didn't involve the U.S. [SPEAKER_00]: The answer would be connect, but specifically with the U.S. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, maybe. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: See, you asked that question. [SPEAKER_01]: But we're thinking more about what a nightmare the U.S. is to connect rather than the product, or the, you know, the process of the aircraft.

1:32:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And if I made that, if I made that, [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, Mumbai, and you can connect through Dohar or you go direct. [SPEAKER_01]: Connect. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, connect as well. [SPEAKER_00]: What about you? [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like, I've done, I don't know, I'm sure, like, you both have as well, but I've, on those antibodies, I've flown Iberia, Ita, Etihad, Erlinga, it's like, I've had you don't get an experience on all of them.

1:33:23 [SPEAKER_02]: That's like almost all of them. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Is there any others? [SPEAKER_02]: I might, I feel like I've, I have done [SPEAKER_02]: Barrier and then go said, yeah, and I've had that invariably decent experiences, but there is something still like, you know, what all this being said, I would go very out my way to fly something that I want to fly.

1:33:42 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, sometimes I'll take that when Singapore was flying a 380 between Singapore and Frankfurt, I would take that and connect and go to London, even though I mean, that's sort of a bit ridiculous, but it's a fancy little, it's not ridiculous at all. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, so yeah.

1:34:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think like most of the time airlines are putting worse business class products on narrow bodies, which is a problem. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you look at Etihad and where there, if you're twenty one, I'll always actually have one of their best seats better than there are seven eight sevens in my opinion, that's when it gets a bit more difficult to decide.

1:34:21 [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. [SPEAKER_02]: There is definitely like a feeling being on a wide body that you just don't get, like a feeling that I'm feeling that I'm seeking. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I love asking people that don't fly off in this because a friend came and visited me from, she was visiting from London and she came out on the A380 in business and then she flew back on the 351,000 and the business was Q Suite which you don't get on the A380.

1:34:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said to her after which one did you prefer? [SPEAKER_01]: And I was so sure she was going to say Q Suite and she said, she said the A380, I said to her, why I'm so interested is it because of [SPEAKER_01]: She said, no, she said, I think it's just because. [SPEAKER_01]: like the A380 so amazing, it's so big.

1:35:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So everything that we all consider as passengers and actually just because she perceives that the A380 is amazing how huge it is. [SPEAKER_01]: That's much to prove it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And also, like if you told a normal person, would you rather connect or fly direct when there's a direct option and if the price was the same, they would think we're all absolutely crazy for suggesting we'd rather come out.

1:35:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Lie or buy a third runaway at Heathrow. [SPEAKER_02]: Bye. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just go for it. [SPEAKER_02]: Come on. [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: Fly. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, bye. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm a B U B U I. I'm a B U B U I. I'm a B U B U I. I'm a B U B U I. I'm a B U B U I. I'm a B U B U I. I'm a B U B I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U I. I'm a B U [SPEAKER_01]: No, for other people, no phone calls, but for me, it's okay because then I had to be discreet.

1:36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I've got like, I've got the thing like, in my hoodie, like, just like, wedged in the neck area, and I'm like, whispering, and I know no one can hear it, not the guy who's on FaceTime, abusing it. [SPEAKER_02]: Liam, Liam, who, if anybody who watches points go YouTube will know very well, and I've worked with him for the last seven years.

1:36:25 [SPEAKER_02]: We landed from Seoul yesterday, and we were talking about there was somebody between us in the cabin snoring really loudly. [SPEAKER_02]: Now loud snoring is like kind of universally not enjoyed by people, but literally if I hear you take so much as a breath like I'm feeling about it I like it really angry by like noises surrounding me, which is annoying when you have a job which [SPEAKER_02]: and you end up being surrounded by different random people all the time.

1:36:51 [SPEAKER_02]: But he had a little digget yesterday because somebody was playing something out loud on their phone, and that annoys me so much. [SPEAKER_02]: If I can hear stuff coming out of people's headphones even that annoys me. [SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, I get it. [SPEAKER_02]: You hate it, but he's like, you are all so the worst.

1:37:06 [SPEAKER_02]: The amount of times you sit there blasting out a TikTok showing it to me, like on a train or on a plane or whatever, and I'm like, yeah, fast like, it's okay when it's me. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what means a phony? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I do and I do.

1:37:24 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to. [SPEAKER_00]: The chewing. [SPEAKER_00]: True. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, I'll go ballistic. [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, in that, in like, it happens. [SPEAKER_02]: The worst for me is like, and you get in a cab, like an Uber or whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: And like chewing gum or sweet.

1:37:37 [SPEAKER_02]: They're smacking their lips. [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, I'm not a very chill person and I like internally lose it at these things. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it is uncontrollable. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've tried to control it just like I have many times. [SPEAKER_02]: I've asked more than that.

1:37:56 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, in therapy, I've been like, shuffling this for me and they're like, [SPEAKER_01]: No, these like the newer aircraft and like a 350 for example, it's making you worse because Look at it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so quiet in the cabin that now I remember on the very very early a 350 flights when it Adented service at that point with Qatar Singapore I want to say Vietnam was a third operator and If I'm on so to Qatar was December and we went.

1:38:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think Vietnam was a third anyway three operators And I remember the I said to the Airbus team at the time [SPEAKER_01]: any findings like what are the early things that the things that you hadn't expected or probably like and they all said we now have a noise problem in the cabin because it's so quiet when somebody sneezes 15 rows away you know you can hear it loud you can also hear the snoring you can hear cheering for example whereas on the triple seven the wishing that exists throughout the flight tends to mask it all fly or by families boarding before anyone else [SPEAKER_02]: I feel I feel indifferent about this, down it sounds like you've got an input.

1:38:57 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's just because this has been a ongoing talking point this season because Alex is very passionate about this. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not very passionate about it. [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that when it's like you happen to be traveling at a time when I then quickly like Google, my cousin's score and realized, well, they're off again.

1:39:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I realized that's why the cabin is full of 50 kids in front of me who are standing in the aisle, not knowing where to go, when they could easily just board. [SPEAKER_01]: with everyone else with their group number, and need to be all fast. [SPEAKER_01]: My opinion. [SPEAKER_00]: When we have kids, if we do, we'll understand why people with kids should board first.

1:39:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Nick is playing it safe, and he doesn't have an opinion in inverted commas on his... [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, honestly, I think I've been relatively opinionated throughout this podcast, and this is just, this is just, it's honestly just not one that I actually feel, I feel that strongly.

1:39:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't, I've never been in a situation where I'm like, [SPEAKER_02]: erratated by yeah by a family boarding before me so let me keep what is airport theory and fly or by i generally don't know what this is what is airport theory that's all it's like a tick-tock thing that's all just because we think you know the trends better than us yeah i'm assuming that like because you're on top of your way and airport is that airport theory is like is is like [SPEAKER_02]: Like when you're cutting your mind, it's like cutting, it's in a very, very last possible minute arriving at the airport.

1:40:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're like not wasting your time. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I think that's like that's, but by because like, what, why? [SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're in, unless you're at somewhere that is like incredibly predictable, like you can push it at London City, [SPEAKER_02]: If you're flying from, if you're flying from Heathrow and you've, and you've got to get to the C gates and, and, and, and, and, and the Q, first wing closed, and we're like, like, security cues, blah, blah, blah, like, you, you're out of control of so much of your journey that, like, and, you know, in airlines, we're happily off load, you know, we're gonna, or maybe Alex and Dan, maybe they wait for you, but they certainly don't wait for you.

1:41:09 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you use the first wing at 10.5? [SPEAKER_02]: I do, yeah, often. [SPEAKER_01]: Will you, or are you concerned about being affected by the call of the B.A. [SPEAKER_01]: Freak of Life's Game, or have you moved or you protected yourself? [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't moved.

1:41:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to track back a minute because improving B.A. [SPEAKER_02]: One thing which I just want to say is just lounges like the lounges experience even as a go-card holder is just like a... [SPEAKER_02]: the new lounge and Miami looks really nice if they roll it out and they go big.

1:41:38 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know we're talking about training customer service like when you fly virgin like at the out the clubhouse you're getting like a personal service they're coming and chatting to you they have these they have these people I don't I don't know what they call them the role but it's like um like lounge supervisors or whatever whose job it is to like [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't exist.

1:42:02 [SPEAKER_02]: My BA doesn't have that, and you really like notice that difference. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's one improvement I made. [SPEAKER_02]: I do use the first wing. [SPEAKER_02]: I thought I stuck with the executive club or the club as it's now called. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think I was going to make it, but I actually think I'm going to do it just now.

1:42:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on 15,000 tier points. [SPEAKER_02]: I need another 5,000, which I think [SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to be really, but I've had, like, I've just got a bit lucky with, like, tickets and what I've been flying and what I've been doing, and I'm not sure I'd be able to replicate this next year.

1:42:39 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's going to be really interesting to see next year, who's, like, lost status for all the people who, like, really wanted it and wanted to keep it. [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine they've just gone down different avenues. [SPEAKER_02]: They will still be one more than worlds just through a different room.

1:42:52 [SPEAKER_02]: True. [SPEAKER_02]: When I looked at my options and when I was looking at my year ahead of flying, I didn't have, you know, lots of people switch to thinner, for example, which seemed like a good way to achieve Emerald. [SPEAKER_02]: And for me, looking at that program, I still wasn't going to make it, so I was just like, I'm just going to like carry on doing what I'm doing and see what happens.

1:43:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Keep calm and calm. [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're so right, actually, about like there won't be any fewer elites. [SPEAKER_00]: There will just be people who are less loyal to BA now, which is probably not. [SPEAKER_01]: So the lounge is still going to be packed, basically. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, but Nikki, we have had so much fun.

1:43:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for taking so much time out of your day to join us on air. [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a real pleasure. [SPEAKER_02]: literally only talking about planes with you to Kurds could make me stay here for so long. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm being gaged. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we are grateful.

1:43:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll have to come back to Guest Curahouse with us. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll show the listeners going to love this as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me. [SPEAKER_01]: I promise you. [SPEAKER_00]: Dan, I'll leave it to you to rap. [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, well, yeah, thank you so much guys and to all the listeners, don't forget to rate the podcast if you haven't already on Spotify on Apple podcast wherever you listen and we will see you all next week as usual on Wednesday on air.

1:44:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Bye bye. [SPEAKER_00]: See you next time.