Why Spirit Failed (And Ryanair Never Will)

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Dan and I'm Alex and welcome back to honor with Dan and Alex available wherever you get your podcast how are you Damn I'm fine. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm staring at a beautiful English countryside scene We're in England green. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and little rabbits are running around. [SPEAKER_00]: It is idyllic.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you? [SPEAKER_01]: Good, my view is a little different, it's more Mediterranean sea-esque, which is also very nice, but please, to be with you on this bright and early Wednesday morning, we're recording this episode just shortly before it will drop into your podcast feeds. [SPEAKER_01]: Dan, what is going on in the U.S. because you are the typical American of the podcast and by the way, what is going on in the U.S. is a pretty good question, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Where should we start? [SPEAKER_01]: Dan, explain. [SPEAKER_01]: But specifically, the U.S. has lost a major airline for the first time in over a decade. [SPEAKER_01]: This is of course spirit airlines, the ultra low cost. [SPEAKER_01]: at yellow banana airline, a very iconic and it's branding, spirit has seized operations, liquidated, of course a very serious side to this, not least the passengers affected, but more importantly in this scenario, those that work for spirit, because that is 15,000 jobs now gone overnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what is following is this blame game, but how did we get here? [SPEAKER_01]: And also what's been your experience with spirit? [SPEAKER_00]: No, I haven't. [SPEAKER_00]: I've never lost experience. [SPEAKER_00]: You've never lost experience. [SPEAKER_00]: Damn, this is not helping your man of the people.

[SPEAKER_00]: I took one look at those yellow planes. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, keep me away from that. [SPEAKER_01]: They're just outlining as an American. [SPEAKER_01]: Where'd this spirit sit in the market and what's that, you know, or where did they? [SPEAKER_01]: So... [SPEAKER_00]: So this is what's important to know, and the reason that I have never flown spirit, although I've flown Ryanair many times, for example, is that spirit airlines is and was notoriously sort of the Ryanair of the US in terms of them being a low cost airline that charges extra for [SPEAKER_00]: everything else for for a carry on an extra carry on bag besides a backpack for checked luggage of course as all other US Airlines do charging extra for onboard drinks.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no snacks for free. [SPEAKER_00]: Those types of things. [SPEAKER_00]: So, in that sense, they were the Rhiner equivalent in the US. [SPEAKER_00]: The difference is that if you've ever checked flight prices in the US, Spirit Airlines will have ended up nowhere near a Rhiner-esque price.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even on a short competitive route, like let's say New York to Boston or even New York to Chicago, [SPEAKER_00]: Spirit was charging, I mean, when I was checking last for a friend just a couple of weeks ago, around $8.90 one way while the legacy airlines united Delta American charge around $120 one way for a basic economy take it on the same flight.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you compare that to markets where Ryan air compete against BA, like Dublin to London, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: B.A. [SPEAKER_00]: might be charging 10 times more than what Ryan air charges for those flights. [SPEAKER_00]: So the context here was always very different of what role spirit filled.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that you have some very interesting background into the difference in the market that makes that the case. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I mean, the way that the US air travel market is structured has, for a long time, provided passengers with competition, and that's slowly started to dwindle and we're seeing airlines come together or float the idea of coming together right across the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: but with spirit which hasn't turned a profit in seven years. [SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't a sudden collapse. [SPEAKER_01]: It was something that was slower. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if I take you back to the Biden administration, spirits troubles were very, very evident. [SPEAKER_01]: They had failed.

[SPEAKER_01]: They had failed for bankruptcy. [SPEAKER_01]: They had, and it was bankruptcy protection, so it's that structure that very American process whereby they can be kind of swooped up and saved to in order to protect the company in the jobs and so on. [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, there was just in 2024, and I believe we probably discussed it on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure some loyal listeners may remember that, but as hosts we don't. [SPEAKER_01]: But basically in 2024, there was a very strong likelihood that spirit was going, [SPEAKER_01]: to be acquired by JetBlue and the Biden administration at the time and their department of justice blocked the JetBlue acquisition, which would have saved spirit, the Biden administration at the time calling the merger.

[SPEAKER_01]: anti-competitive and not essentially in the interest of consumers, which I think both you and I agree was a bit of a stretch, because JetBlue acquiring spirit wasn't the dominant aggressive liftoons of group star acquisition of one major player swooping up all of the vulnerable, but rather spirit was genuinely vulnerable and it has been for years and if it wasn't swept [SPEAKER_01]: has now been in the case 2026 some two years later.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there are real questions as to why that was blocked or actually if that was appropriate at the time or if it was more politically driven rather than considered from the point of aviation and longevity for an airline in protecting 15,000 jobs, many of which of course are high skilled.

[SPEAKER_01]: professional aviation sector employees that it costs a lot to invest in that training it costs a lot to get them to the standard that they are at because yes there are all kinds of jokes about spirit being you know crazy the the the the Ryan air-esque but even even more Ryan air than Ryan air start airline in the US but the fact is they have a stellar safety record they operate a young fleet on the whole they are a big customer of Airbus [SPEAKER_01]: and they're relied upon by Americans all over the country for connectivity.

[SPEAKER_01]: So... [SPEAKER_01]: It was, I believe, in the interest of consumers to keep spirit alive, the Biden can't blame Trump, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So they are currently saying that Trump didn't come through in this period and save spirit, because that was what the president over the last week said he was trying to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, it's the context as to, okay, why now if spirit has been on a cliff edge, [SPEAKER_01]: For so long, what was the final push? [SPEAKER_01]: And many listeners will probably guess correctly that it actually is this current Iran conflict. [SPEAKER_01]: The US Israel war on Iran was the final push that killed spirit airlines because the way that it has driven up that jet fuel price that is still sky high.

[SPEAKER_01]: No airline, especially not an ultra low-cost airline, like Spirit. [SPEAKER_01]: has the margins or the buffer to be able to accommodate slash cope with such a high jet fuel price. [SPEAKER_01]: These airlines are not structured or modeled in any way to absorb anything like the prolonged high jet fuel price that we are seeing at the moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it would only take just a couple weeks of that high jet fuel price to finish off spirit and that is exactly what has happened. [SPEAKER_00]: precisely. [SPEAKER_00]: I do think it's important to mention though that this just brought the demise of spirit forward a bit, things, you know, as you said, we're not exactly looking great.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just [SPEAKER_00]: And we should remember that we're just going into peak season for, for air travel, the world cup is of course happening in the U.S. [SPEAKER_00]: So these would have been months when spirit could have hopefully turned a bit of a profit if the jet fuel prices had not risen, you know, at least.

[SPEAKER_01]: On that point, just quickly on that, have you seen our send you it? [SPEAKER_01]: There's not to call with full second. [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently the hotel industry in the US are agreeing that the World Cup so far is what they're considering a non-event. [SPEAKER_01]: They have no known as optic.

[SPEAKER_01]: No one is coming. [SPEAKER_01]: There are no international bookings. [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently the hotel as an association of the hotels across the US have said that there is no increase as of yet in what they're seeing for forward bookings for the World Cup period. [SPEAKER_00]: That is pretty sad.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess, you know, Kamala had to go out and say, do not come and everyone still came and then Now they don't even have to tell people do not come people are just not coming, but it is anyway that's a different a different thing, but in terms of spirit as I said, you know, I think that [SPEAKER_00]: being around a few more months, of course, would have benefited some travelers, but ultimately this would have happened either way.

[SPEAKER_00]: The interesting thing is watching interviews from the CEOs of the major US carriers, American United Delta, [SPEAKER_00]: because they're all pretty, they knew this was going to happen. [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of them seem to be offering jobs to help support the people who have lost their jobs.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it's spirit. [SPEAKER_00]: So whether it's pilots or cabin crew or maintenance, [SPEAKER_00]: It's also interesting to see because there were a lot of debates at the end whether Trump should go in and save spirit in order to, let's say, protect the market or maintain healthy competition.

[SPEAKER_00]: competition really always finds a way of of working things out on its own because as soon as this news was announced the spirit was closing down we saw a few airlines reacts namely JetBlue making the biggest reaction announcing a bunch of new flights [SPEAKER_00]: out of Fort Lauderdale trying to bolster their position in what was spirit airlines biggest hub, so several routes that spirit flu are now going to be flown by JetBlue, so they're filling that void.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, there are always going to be certain markets, certain city pairs that now lose direct traffic, which is the biggest loss in situations like this, but ultimately [SPEAKER_00]: As we've been saying, spirit airlines unfortunately was not a viable business model in the United States.

[SPEAKER_00]: As we've spoken about over and over again on this podcast, credit cards and loyal to programs have become everything to the ways that airlines make money in the U.S. Delta derives $8 billion from their partnership with American Express. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's about 10% of their annual revenue airlines generally are lucky if they make a couple percent in profit per year of their revenues.

[SPEAKER_00]: So think about 10% coming from a part of their business that isn't really costing that money in the same way they're flying does. [SPEAKER_00]: That is huge and obviously spirit, not having that same sort of customer engagement through their loyalty program, not having the same type of attractive credit cards is really what contributes to their demise here.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is super interesting to look at the difference between spirit and the likes of Ryan air in Europe. [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to take us through that Alex to see why it works so well in Europe and why it just doesn't in the US. [SPEAKER_01]: Why I think the obvious thing is the credit card thing as well right and loyalty because US airlines as we've spoken about for so long make enormous profits from from everything that [SPEAKER_01]: an entire lower-ty business as it's called business model to some extent and then also happens to fly aircraft from A to B and spirit can't compete with that, couldn't compete with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then you've got the cost structure, Ryan is cost per mile seat, it is much lower. [SPEAKER_01]: that then spirits. [SPEAKER_01]: That gap is big and Ryanair is able to use different labor loop holes. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know how it rebrands airports, you know, power is even though it's like an hour away.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it does that right across the ecosystem because it is able to be agile and savvy and keep that costs very, very low. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what's necessary and required. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course also the geography, I mean European roots are about 90 minutes, let's say, on average and passengers know what to expect some of the U.S. domestic roots for even six hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you have competition. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have competition on that. [SPEAKER_01]: And if the pricing isn't drastically different, then there are question marks that start to, [SPEAKER_01]: pop up into the consumer's head as to, well, maybe if I'm going to fly those two flights and the difference is a hundred dollars, maybe I should earn points with that, maybe I should, you know, benefit or maybe I can earn my credit card points on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, none of that actually is spirit has way more direct competitors than Ryanair her competing on a very much low cost to low cost, so that yes of course to an extent Ryanair competing with legacy. [SPEAKER_01]: but they have that low-cost environment that better established him. [SPEAKER_00]: Precisely, and there are just so many differences.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you, it's fascinating how looking at two airlines, like Spirit and Ryan Air, can illustrate so many differences between cultures and between countries as a whole, because, [SPEAKER_00]: If you think about the role that Rhiner also fills for many people in the aviation industry in Europe, it's their starting out airline.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just when they get their pilot's license, they'll accrue the hours they need with Rhiner, and then often start flying with a legacy airline where there's better terms, better long-term career progression, things like that, where they can eventually maybe fly long-haul. [SPEAKER_00]: that also works for cabin crew, a lot of Ryan air cabin crew work there to rock up experience to then apply for Emirates or catch our airways, which maybe people wouldn't expect when they're being served by those people later on with some very polished service on those airlines.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the US, [SPEAKER_00]: that spirit airlines has never been that starting out airline. [SPEAKER_00]: The starting out airlines are the regional airlines that fly for Delta United and American primarily. [SPEAKER_00]: These regional CRJs, embryo jets that are usually below 70 or so passengers, [SPEAKER_00]: in order to fit into a lower pay grade, those pilots fly more hours.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's where the US carriers actually derive their benefits of low pilot pay and low crew pay because that's where people are willing to accept that to accrue their hours. [SPEAKER_00]: not at the likes of spirit airlines because they're flying a 320s just like at United and American in Delta and the problem for spirit has been that these three huge airlines have been really forced to increase especially their pilot salaries but also the flight attendants salaries.

[SPEAKER_00]: to such an insane amount now, I mean, a captain at Delta United and American can earn up to $450 an hour, I think. [SPEAKER_00]: But that's for long-haul flying still, it's an incredible salary. [SPEAKER_00]: So how is spirit, then, with the [SPEAKER_00]: an era a low cost airline which is supposed to have a beneficial cost structure supposed to compete when their pilots can just go well okay i'll just go apply for a job at tell to that and make way more money sure that's that is what's really tough and let's not also know for yet that [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the markets where Ryanair really, I mean, we, this is a very famous fastening in qualms up that where Ryanair goes, they create demand.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't even have to enter markets where there is already demand. [SPEAKER_00]: They can go, we think you want a fly between Gothenburg and Hounas in the Baltic. [SPEAKER_00]: So we think you want a fly between, [SPEAKER_00]: They are the enabler. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they are. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: So wherever Ryan Air goes, because they can have such low prices, suddenly, I mean, in some ways, I feel like the whole concept of Scandinavia is traveling to Poland has really a risk in it. [SPEAKER_00]: Because Ryan Air has launched all these flights to crack out into Gidansk that are like, you know, 20 euros.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, fine. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we'll go there because that's where the cheap flight is taking me. [SPEAKER_00]: So there's so many unique routes in Reiner's network. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the number of city pairs that they operate is incredible and the the thing what they have done for Europe in terms of unlocking connectivity.

[SPEAKER_00]: is actually so incredible and should not be understated or underappreciated because if they were in there we're all flying through Munich and Frankfurt and Paris, which now a lot of people don't have to do. [SPEAKER_00]: The same was not the case for spirit as you mentioned, they're mainly flying on the same routes as again, Delta United and American, which makes it very tough to compete.

[SPEAKER_00]: Very true. [SPEAKER_01]: very true. [SPEAKER_01]: I was, uh, I was on CNN, uh, discussing spirit and a few days ago. [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, my god, I general had managed it because the slot that they gave me, I was like, okay, I was almost too nervous to tell them, I don't think I can actually make that because I was on an aircraft and and I was transiting to another.

[SPEAKER_01]: And basically it was one of those scenarios where I thought, I can't control it if I make it, I make it if I don't have to message them. [SPEAKER_01]: And I got off of the aircraft [SPEAKER_01]: and then walked into the lounge and they had never been to this lounge before and there was this meeting room, plush meeting room with like the fabric wall so it was beautifully sound proof and it was there and it was ready and then said, Guy was just coming out of their finish and I was like, oh my god, walked in, shot the door, then I was like shit, it's too dim for tv, then I found a light switch hidden behind like a [SPEAKER_01]: a four-panel light switch that was playing around with it all the lights came up, then there was a TV, the TV was playing a Greek advertisement on loop and I'm like shit, where's the remote?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no remote that I stick my head under the TV with a torch and I see there's a power of button, so I hold it and turn the TV off. [SPEAKER_01]: set up my iPad connect to the Wi-Fi thinking is this even sensible to connect to the Wi-Fi? [SPEAKER_01]: What if the lounge Wi-Fi has zero upload and therefore it won't have bandwidth for TV?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the fastest Wi-Fi in the lounge I've ever connected to. [SPEAKER_01]: Two minutes later I am live and I can see myself outside of the door on the big screen in the lounge because they had CNN on second see myself in the distance. [SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, how I made that work, I don't know, it's one of those tourists where it was, it wasn't even stressful, it was just like, I just embraced the fact that this is not supposed to work for somehow did.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so it was a memorable broadcast, but we were discussing, he was asking me the anchor at CNN was asking me about the staff and he was, [SPEAKER_01]: basically saying, oh, it's what's really nice is that, um, other airlines, uh, I haven't, he said, I haven't seen this before. [SPEAKER_01]: Other airlines are stepping in trying to take the, uh, staff that's really doing the right thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I reminded him that, of course, it's doing the right thing. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the branding of it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually because the aviation sector globally is suffering from this shortage of skilled workforce, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Ever since so many retired in COVID and then there was the, you know, that everything that happened in 2022.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: airlines definitely circle a need to swoop in and poach as many of the skilled employees that they can take because it's much more cost efficient to not have to bring in someone. [SPEAKER_01]: from outside and train them from fresh, that's in investment, that takes time and money, whereas all these professionals who for no thought of their own are now there and no longer working for an island that exists, are ready to be taken.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's in the interest of the other airlines to do so, and of course they recognize that in terms of branding, that's a good idea, because it's, you know, we're doing the right thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I seem to open his eyes to it and he's, oh, you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: This is not kind of philanthropic of the Yeah, I bet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, have I just said that word correctly? [SPEAKER_01]: I So I feel right. [SPEAKER_01]: Philanthropy. [SPEAKER_01]: Philanthropy. [SPEAKER_00]: Philanthropy. [SPEAKER_01]: Philanthropy. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's let's move on. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's mistakenly philanthropy, yeah, it's philanthropy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he said it was philanthropic of the airlines. [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I come back to anyway anyway, you know what I mean, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's not just a good deed. [SPEAKER_01]: It was something that is in their interest. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, look, I think that was a decent run through of everything that's happening there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And naturally, we hope that airlines do [SPEAKER_01]: pick up the the workforce and because it's Spirit have got you know they're all over the U.S. as well. [SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully that will work out for employees there. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's move over to Southeast Asia to our wonderful friends at Singapore Airlines a great way to fly.

[SPEAKER_01]: We like Singapore and there are a few developments over the last few days. [SPEAKER_01]: Starlink product. [SPEAKER_01]: I loved fruit myself. [SPEAKER_00]: I love how like in significant, this seems compared to what we just spoke about. [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're on to the more unnecessary, but also fun to discuss.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a must, and you need to. [SPEAKER_01]: So many islands are taking it now. [SPEAKER_01]: So, but let's see. [SPEAKER_01]: So what's going on with Singapore? [SPEAKER_01]: So the new first and business class products delayed and of course Singapore Airlines announced an [SPEAKER_01]: And they should have been invading it very soon.

[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it should have been last month or the month prior, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we were expecting to be in Singapore. [SPEAKER_01]: We were ready, but it's now been pushed back. [SPEAKER_01]: Not the reveal, but the cabin products have been pushed back to 2027. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is because, of course, like many airlines, Singapore Airlines, with that brand new coming products, which we can't wait to see because it will be first business, premium and economy, suffering from the supply chain constraints that exist everywhere across aviation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, seat certification, which is really an industry wide problem. [SPEAKER_01]: And, notably, I think we're going to see many airlines take deliveries of business class, [SPEAKER_01]: Seats that have got doors were actually they can't use the doors, but they're still entering to service So prepare for boarding a jet and it's already happening with American and you have a sliding door there But it's not certified yet to use everything is systematically and incredibly slow and constraint since 22 or so And these delays just continuing to roll on.

[SPEAKER_01]: What did you think when you saw about this then you come in product delay [SPEAKER_00]: Well, to be honest, I was like, oh, yeah, the new cabin products, I kind of have forgotten about that after the announcement was supposed to take place. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, we'll see when it happens, but this obviously is not surprising news that we're now waiting until 2027.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm in the rare camp of people who actually likes Singapore Airlines current business class seat, obviously a lot of people like it, but I feel like in the frequent fire world it is very divisive. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not someone who says, oh, they have to get a new seat immediately.

[SPEAKER_00]: They have to slap a door on there. [SPEAKER_00]: The thing to remember about Singapore Airlines, which I think the E380 [SPEAKER_00]: revolutionary carrier that tries to push forward what is possible in commercial aviation because generally that has not really been the case for Singapore Airlines.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you look at their business costs they have very rarely been on the cutting edge. [SPEAKER_00]: They go for something solid and something [SPEAKER_00]: comfortable that they know will do the job, but they're rarely the ones to do something new or something incredibly innovative. [SPEAKER_00]: And that is also the case in first class.

[SPEAKER_00]: If we disregard the E3D sweets, their triple seven first class is not industry leading in any way. [SPEAKER_00]: They're previous E3D first class when they introduced that. [SPEAKER_00]: It was great, but also not quite the [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we should all be expecting, especially this new first-class product, which everyone is very excited for them to put on the E350 900 ULRs for the world's longest flights, probably not by this point because that then it will be project sunrise from quantists, but still New York to Singapore, 18, 19 hours, [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny how everyone gets excited about their being first class on those planes when I know that 99.99% of us will not be flying that probably including us because I highly doubt there will be any attractive fairs or awards or whatever for those flights.

[SPEAKER_00]: even when those come, I don't expect this to be anything revolutionary. [SPEAKER_00]: What we see now is that it seems to be a one, two, one layout based on, I think, patent set have been filed, one, two, one on an A350, doesn't indicate, we'll have an especially wide or revolutionary type of layout.

[SPEAKER_00]: We also have this little [SPEAKER_00]: Preview video that gives us a taste of what it might be as well, which doesn't seem to be some sort of industry-leading sweet or anything like that. [SPEAKER_00]: So these are going to be comfortable improvements that we see eventually, but [SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's also why I hadn't really thought about it because I'm not I'm not waiting for them to to to blow our minds.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, the same unfortunately as the case with their Starlink announcement for some reason. [SPEAKER_00]: So so slow. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to talk about that? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what I know is that, you know, Starlink, Alan's are able to install Starlink in a matter of days on aircraft, but Singapore, at that timeline, is it extending over several years?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what? [SPEAKER_01]: Why, I can't work that out. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, okay, great. [SPEAKER_01]: Starlink is coming to Singapore, Alan's from next year, but I mean, good luck if you get on an aircraft with one, because, [SPEAKER_01]: where other carers are able to do one every couple of days, Singapore like a handful for the first half of the year, not fleet wide and I don't know, let's see if this changes but a bit slow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is very Singapore Airlines to take its slow and steady, not really rock the boat, not, you know, they're fine as they are, they're profitable, they are, [SPEAKER_00]: Still regarded as one of the best airlines in the world with their current Wi-Fi with their current business cost product And they don't really see this urgency that some other airlines always seem to feel to it to one up Others they're just there Minding their business.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're marketing is very quiet and they're demure to bring that word back They're which is it's very [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's kind of attractive to have an airline that's just so sure of themselves and so confident in what they're doing, but I do think that sometimes it would be nice to see a little more urgency and a little more awareness of what competition is doing from SQ because I mean, the the new business class seats are one thing, but [SPEAKER_00]: I am really disappointed by the Starlink plans, especially the fact that they still only want to install it on their long-haul aircraft.

[SPEAKER_00]: So flights that are, you know, perth certain Melbourne frequencies, which are served by their regional A350s, these are 5, 6, 7 hour flights, and there are no plans to have [SPEAKER_00]: That's a bit disappointing from what is supposed to be the world's best airline. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a story that went viral, while photo went viral actually, a photo out of context, claiming that a Singapore Airlines flight attendant was giving a foot massage to a passenger on an ultra long haul flight. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you see this? [SPEAKER_01]: I did. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it just went absolutely everywhere, and also a little bit concerned by the amount of excitement this caused, particularly amongst [SPEAKER_01]: Men who are yeah, this is this is because sing up rail lines care because they know of the impact of You know the lack of circulation and the swelling that kind of car when it's an ultra long-haul flight So good that sing up rail line crew and now starting this is like I think this is my toes

[SPEAKER_01]: In flight massages, having existed since 08, we're in a different world. [SPEAKER_01]: And for that line to keep that hot on Singapore. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so it's, uh, I mean, this, it was, the photo from what we understand was a flight attendant dealing with a medical, a medical issue with a passenger.

[SPEAKER_01]: and somebody had taken a photo from a distance and zoomed in of the crew kind of assisting with what looks like, almost like an antiseptic white or something, with a passenger's foot, and then it just went everywhere and spot this debate about how, yeah, other airlines should follow single-parallel lines lead in giving foot massages on ultra-longal flights.

[SPEAKER_01]: What lead? [SPEAKER_01]: What lead? [SPEAKER_01]: And understandably, it was not a thing. [SPEAKER_01]: This particularly took off [SPEAKER_01]: on on X where everything is out of context and but it those that we'll remember we'll know that in flight massages were once a thing specifically pioneered by Virgin Atlantic who had an in flight masseuse on board in upper class this was from [SPEAKER_01]: would have a dedicated area, which was costly and vaginal antique quickly realized that, who haven't turned a profit in a while, and the mercies would offer neck, shoulder, back, and also massages and also manicure services in this little area on board the aircraft last [SPEAKER_01]: But they ended it because the cost was simply unsustainable and also the world changed a bit I mean, it's a bit funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess in front of other passengers to have a massage and the confines of an aircraft cabin Yeah, it's a little bit like there's there's certain lounges actually quite a few lounges still in Asia where there's [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, one or two people wandering around offering people massages where they're sitting in the lounge.

[SPEAKER_00]: These are lounge employees, so it is a bit awkward there because sometimes you'll be sitting at like the buffet area where everyone's eating and someone next to you is getting a massage. [SPEAKER_00]: So a similar concept, similar concept to this onboard thing. [SPEAKER_00]: What I find more interesting about this story is how don't you feel that suddenly there's this huge interest in aviation on social media.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes stories like this [SPEAKER_00]: yeah spread far and wide among people who have nothing to do with aviation they're not avgeeks but they're like wow look at this i just find it fascinating how suddenly people seem to care you know i know and and i you know [SPEAKER_01]: I always think, okay, my algorithm is feeding me aviation content for obvious reasons, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I get sick so much from people that are not, you know, they do not have an interest in and you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: Air travel in general really, really feels the algorithm on a cross social media. [SPEAKER_01]: People love to see a fight break out on an aircraft video. [SPEAKER_01]: They love to see a single [SPEAKER_01]: Is all this stuff or all the, I mean, now all the videos I'm seeing about the cues for EES, you know, the European, the European new entry exit system and the long cues people are finding themselves in, but I mean, I don't know, I can't hear of it because it is so much of it is so out of context and I find myself messaging on tease and relatives [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's not the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was this. [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing I hate, I have absolutely no time for the following. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're going to come to somebody who is very much, you know, in the area, as in a specialist area, aviation and so on, you're going to say, oh, I saw this as a assist.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then that individual replies to you. [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, I reply saying, no, actually, that's not the case. [SPEAKER_01]: This was a [SPEAKER_01]: If you are then, based on social media alone, go to come back to me and say, well, no, but it's said on Twitter about you. [SPEAKER_01]: That's where the conversation ends.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have no. [SPEAKER_01]: And I literally replied to one of my relatives recently saying, that's fine. [SPEAKER_01]: Go and believe that then. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't ask me. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not wasting my time. [SPEAKER_01]: I took three minutes at my day to reply to you with the actual aviation realism, the truth with facts with facts and accuracy.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're going to come at me with a with a but it's said on x this random account with [SPEAKER_01]: 10,000 fake followers in a bought verification tick said XYZ have fun believing them don't you have to you know And it's yeah 99% of people that engage with it be like oh wow my god that's so true probably but then you get the 1% and sometimes it is I don't like our relatives you get the 1% but I certainly on this so it must be true wonderful have fun believing that have a lovely day goodbye [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, with me, it's also always like, oh, I've heard that airline is terrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or I've heard that airline is amazing or no, just that airline is terrible. [SPEAKER_00]: That airline is amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh, if you've flown them, no, no, never. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, yeah, so, so based on my experience, that is not the case, or that is the case.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, but everyone says it's this way. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, everyone says, but have you experienced it? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, see, you go further in the comment in the dialogue. [SPEAKER_01]: I end up because I just think 24 hours in the day is very, very little time. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have time.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have time. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if you want to believe what's on socials, well, something that isn't the truth or something that is accurate or something that I think we're both a bit rolling our eyes about. [SPEAKER_01]: It is small in the grand scheme of things, but this will matter to British always passengers.

[SPEAKER_01]: B.A. [SPEAKER_01]: Club, Europe, that business class is famous around the world for being an unusual, you know, European business class as a whole is an unusual thing, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's just an empty middle seat, sometimes with a table there, sometimes not. [SPEAKER_01]: And the, uh, oh, I need to tell, I've completely pivot.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a bit of a juicy story to tell you. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I want to tell the story, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Let's finish the point on BA. [SPEAKER_01]: So basically, long story short, BA are removing the head rest, which is not an actual head rest that you know, you can mold around your head.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just the cloth, right? [SPEAKER_01]: In aviation, it's called an anti-Makasa. [SPEAKER_01]: They're removing the white cloth that they put on the business seats so that as you walk down the cabin you can see which ones are the business seats and which ones are economy because it's the only difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're taking those out and they're saying that it's to improve operational resilience, punctuality, and sustainability because basically it saves on the laundry cost and it also speeds up the turnaround because the crew don't have to say how many business class seats Linda? [SPEAKER_01]: She says 22 and then they go around putting the headrests.

[SPEAKER_01]: These pieces of fabric on. [SPEAKER_00]: So, my immediate thought was I wonder how much those calls, how much is B.A. [SPEAKER_00]: paying? [SPEAKER_00]: Or I mean, I realized this might be more about turnaround efficiency because they don't have to be changing the number of address like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I would just love to see what led them to this decision, is it, you know, 10,000 pounds? [SPEAKER_00]: How much could those possibly cost and how much time is it possibly taking to take those on and off? [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I want to know. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, it will be something, but and also there was speculations to whether or not these end up in landfield, but I don't get how because it's fabric, so anyway, there is, you [SPEAKER_01]: It's an unfortunate pattern of cuts, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Water bottles in economy, extended breakfast and brunch windows to reduce those catering costs. [SPEAKER_01]: They're telling staff to stop apologizing to passengers who are disheartened by the experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: Cut cuts, cuts, cuts, and that's what BA is being known for. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, so many passengers fell off of a cliff on the first of May, didn't they?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because of the new British Airways Club requirements, loads of British Airways fruit confliers now out of the game. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if the lounge is a quieter yet. [SPEAKER_01]: But seemingly there are tons that did not recolify because you have to spend like 20k on BF lights Or be a holiday is only so it's a it's a it's that let me finish on this story, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So a couple days back flying and with my sister and she was in five Fox truck so she was on five fox which is the window sitting in a five [SPEAKER_01]: on a a through 21 Neo in European business class and I was across the other side on five Charlie and a passenger boarded [SPEAKER_01]: and he was a very erratic and very all over the place he was the last passenger to board everyone was kind of looking at his he looked like he was on drugs right just his behaviour and whether he was and I don't know but that's what his behaviour was kind of concluding and he sees his sea and he dumps his bag down and then he's on the phone and he's shouting and shouting on the phone and [SPEAKER_01]: and not in English, and he walks over to the crew and he's like, and we are on a remote stand, so we've just taken a ten minute bus ride to the aircraft.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, my friend, my friend needs to be on this flight, and you said that the flight is sold out, and he says, and the flight is not sold out, there's empty middle seats here, he's talking about in business, how there's empty middle seats. [SPEAKER_01]: And they said it is a full flight, you need to sit down, we're closing the door.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, he said, my friend, he's going to come, I'm telling him now to book a ticket and come to the plane and then look at him like mate, what are you talking about or on a remote stand? [SPEAKER_01]: Your body doesn't have a ticket, the gate is closed, the flight is full, sit down. [SPEAKER_01]: He continues to be incredibly disruptive and loud and his screaming and shouting on the phone.

[SPEAKER_01]: and the crew are looking at him thinking of God what's about to happen, and he walks over back towards his seat, and he looks at Demi, my sister, and he says to the crew, pointing at Demi, I will pay her to leave. [SPEAKER_01]: I will hate her to leave this flight, and my friend will sit in the seat because I have to be with my friend.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Demi looks at him and bursts out laughing, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at him, and the other crew are going, you can't do that. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I will pay. [SPEAKER_01]: How much she wants, how much does she want, how much does she want, I will pay, buddy, I'm looking into thinking, you are one further sentence away, okay, from me getting involved.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then he says, I will pay, so he looks at David and he goes, how much you want? [SPEAKER_01]: I said to him, excuse me, stop, I said to the crew, guys, offload him. [SPEAKER_01]: This gentleman is to be offloaded, he is a disturbance, he's being disruptive and he is currently a threat to the safety of the aircraft.

[SPEAKER_01]: This man is not fit for travel, he is indicates to you that he wants to be with his friend, he can be with his friend right here at the origin. [SPEAKER_01]: He's at the friend is not coming on the aircraft and the crew are looking at me and he [SPEAKER_01]: He looked at them and he said, yeah, take me off.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to travel, it's like apparently I invited him to be offloaded and he accepted. [SPEAKER_01]: So then he starts shouting, I want to get off, I want to get off Robla. [SPEAKER_01]: So the crew, the crew, the person I was really caught off guard and she's standing there staring and she was like, yeah, I need to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm looking at thinking, do as the policy. [SPEAKER_01]: So then a younger member of the crew said to him, [SPEAKER_01]: But if we take you off, there's going to be delays, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no [SPEAKER_01]: It is not now for you to negotiate.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has willingly said he wants to be offloaded, start the process, go to the flight deck. [SPEAKER_01]: And they all, the three of them just did the stirring when she said, she said to me, you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: And she said to the crew, he's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she walked to the flight deck inform the captain and the other crew members started on the phone. [SPEAKER_01]: And five minutes later the stairs were reattached. [SPEAKER_01]: The door was open. [SPEAKER_01]: The police boarded. [SPEAKER_01]: They took him off and he went off willingly and he's still shouting on the [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah

[SPEAKER_01]: Good Lord, we're going to get to the runway and then he's going to do this and that's going to be a two hour delay or even was he's going to take off or he's going to let us take off and still continue to be a disturbance which equals being a threat to the surface of the aircraft and then we're going to have to return and that's even more of a nightmare scenario.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thankfully the best thing he answered was when they said to him do you have luggage and they're going to him do you have luggage in the hole and he said no Because that's not that's a much faster offload So anyway, he left they checked the area around to make sure he didn't leave anything on board which he didn't and off we went But preposterous ridiculous pathetic and [SPEAKER_01]: I feel that the crew that for me sadly the crew felt very intimidated initially by the idea of oh god is this an offload case and it almost took me having to remind them that he's just told you this so this is what's happening so inform the captain don't doubt let's not cause any further delay he has willingly even though he's crazy in acting crazy he's willingly said

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, take me off the aircraft he wants to be with his friend. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not now for them to try to convince him to stay Especially that we're still on the stand. [SPEAKER_01]: The stairs were had only just left us So it was sorted out in five minutes. [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny how if that happened in the US or it would be like all right We know it to do like that is the one thing that yeah Further decisive action, right They can't wait to off low [SPEAKER_00]: Literally, it's like everyone's bucket list to offload at someone at least once if you work on a U.S. airplane But no, you're anyway So that is that's a crazy story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you for a fun episode I'm looking forward to next week already. [SPEAKER_00]: Yep We will be the same time same place and send in your questions and we'll get to the McEwan A next week We will we will we will see you all next week on air. [SPEAKER_00]: Bye bye. [SPEAKER_00]: See you later

Why Spirit Failed (And Ryanair Never Will)

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