“Future of Negotiations with Israel Died in Gaza”

You know, if we want to apply international law, I think maybe a significant percentage of the Israeli population

will be in prison.

I use the notion of terrorism to begin with. I don't think it's legal. I don't think it has any value. It's a way to undervalue the life of someone and it's used politically. The whole purpose of it is to tell you that this person's life is less worthy of living. The story of Marwan is one that reminds us how the Palestinian political future was repeatedly killed before it was born.

We are four Palestinians sitting in the same room. We disagree on so many things, but at the end of it, we agree on justice, end of occupation, end of colonization.

The biggest slogan in the world right now is free Palestine. If you go to a protest and you ask 10 people, what do you mean by free Palestine? You're going to have 10 different answers. In my opinion, that's a problem for any movement. We said free Marwan, free Palestine. The biggest urgency right now is to rebuild Gaza.

Future of negotiations with the state of Israel died in Gaza. After the genocide, there is no negotiation. This is it. And this is something that really should be clear to the movement. At a lot of times we have, quote unquote, allies who exist in the liberal international law sense, but who stop at us being victims, you know, and not that.

Perfect victim. Yeah, perfect victims. Exactly. You want to see me as human, you need to see me as having the right Welcome back to Palestine Deep Dive.

If Palestinians could vote tomorrow in a presidential election, poll after poll suggests that if he ran, Marwan al-Bargouti, who has been imprisoned by Israel for more than 24 years and is serving multiple life sentences, would win.

Today, we're joined in the studio by Marwan's son, Arab al-Bargouti, who has spent much of his adult life campaigning for his father's freedom and has become one of his most prominent voices in the world.

And as the world leaders meet at the UN General Assembly in New York, we are also joined by Dr. Shahed Hammouri, a Palestinian lecturer in international law at the University of Kent and a senior legal consultant at Law for Palestine.

Shahed helped draft Palestine's case to the International Court of Justice and co-chair the Gaza Tribunal into Britain's complicity in the genocide.

Together, we are going to explore the forces that have shaped Palestine's past and present from its political leadership and the question of Palestinian democracy to international law, occupation, imprisonment, and the many questions that continue to define our future. Shahid and Arab, thank you very much for joining us today.

How are you?

We're good. Thank you. Thank you.

Arab, I want to ask you a question. You are the second Palestinian from the Barghouti family who joined us in the studio. We also know many other Barghoutis who are prominent Palestinian leaders, intellectuals and thinkers. I think in Gaza we have another family. I don't know if they are related to you or not, Barghouti.

But in Derbalah we also have Barghout family. I want to ask you how big is your family?

As far as I know, it's big. One of the three to five biggest Palestinian families. And I think maybe more than half of the family is in the diaspora outside of Palestine. But we come from six different villages around Ramallah, originally from Dirghassana. But I personally come from Cobar, which is where my father and mother are from.

And that's where he was born. He was raised and so on.

You are originally from Ramallah, around Ramallah? Yes. Okay, interesting. I always thought it's from Jerusalem, no?

No, Bargouti family. Yeah, around Ramallah.

It's like six different villages and they're known there. But yeah, it's a really beautiful village. I love it.

It's different than Marwan Bargouti's family in Jerusalem.

Mustafa Bargouti. No, no, it's different. Mustafa is from Dergassane, but he's from the same family. But yeah, I should call it Chobar. They wouldn't appreciate it if I call it Chobar. Yeah.

Okay, fair. So let's just start by watching this film trailer together. Sure. And then we can discuss it further.

One. One.

Where Juan was a legitimate leader, he became a symbol of the broader Palestinians. And I think the Palestinians, with their hearts, with their will, can defeat this Israeli occupation in the future. If you dare take on the responsibilities and possessions of your leader, you are taking a tremendous risk.

Here in this street, it was the first time my father's car was hit when I tried to assist the country. Israel pushed even the entire Palestinian people. And the reality is irreversible. Israel succeeded to arrest my body, but not my soul.

He is a terrorist and he is murdered.

Everybody in this world know that Barwan Parvuti is fighting for peace.

I miss him.

My father sent me a letter. He said that he's thinking of a huge hunger strike. Barwan Parvuti! From his cell between four walls,

a man who has nothing,

absolutely nothing. He restored hope in people's hearts.

I think that there is a fair chance that

once there are elections that he will be elected as the president. So I know it must be very emotional and I'm so sorry for that. But Israel have jailed your father since you've been a child and for a long time you had to campaign for him. But at the same time, you said before in other interviews that for you, Marwan Barghouti is not just a political leader and a prisoner, but your own father.

So can you tell us more about your memories with your father?

Yeah. First of all, I think it's like you've mentioned that I've campaigned for my father, but the real credit goes to my mother. She's the one who founded the campaign. She's the one who campaigned for him. Most of her life. And she became his voice. And I think that without her, he wouldn't be recognized nationally and internationally.

And these are his words. He always sends us through the lawyer or the rare cases that I He would say she is the most important person in the family and you never should forget that. And she is a great representation of Palestinian women and what they represent to the cause and it doesn't get talked about enough.

But when it comes to, you know, my memories with him, I think it's like people, when they see him, they get really intimidated. This is like a scary leader or something like that. But people, you can talk to the people who Spend time with him in prison. He has a very high sense of humor. He's always joking around.

He's always encouraging people and smiling. His smile never leaves his face. And that's what I remember him when I was When I was young, the first time I remember that I understood that my father was a political leader of some sort was in 1998. It was the 10th anniversary of the assassination of Khalil Wazir Abu Jihad, He was one of his mentors.

And he took me with him. And I was just eight years old. And he went and spoke to the public. And the only thing that stayed in my mind, where did he get words from? Because he wasn't reading from anything. And when he came, I was like, how did you get all of this? And he said, I have it in my mind. And he was smiling.

I remember he took us vacations to Tunisia, to Egypt. Egypt was his favorite. He loved football. We watched the 98 World Cup together, and that's where we became both Big fans of Zinedine Zidane and France and all that. And Real Madrid, we literally support the same teams. But yeah, and after obviously the two In 2000, everything changed after the start of the Second Intifada.

But as a person, as a husband, as a father, he's truly a great, great one. And there is a special presence about him that he's always kind. I've never heard him complaining in my whole life, including when I visited him in prison while he was getting tortured after he was out of solitary confinement.

So that's the person that he is.

I remember when he was president last time. It was in 2002.

Yeah.

And I remember that day. I remember that time. I was only seven years old back then, growing up in Gaza. You know, Marwan Bargut was in the West Bank. But I still remember the story. I still remember that it was a shock for all the Palestinian people, including people in Gaza. And despite or regardless of his political affiliation or inclination, So many Palestinians identify with him.

He was someone who represents a lot of the Palestinian people. And I still remember the time that he was in prison. It was shook for all of us. I want to ask you, Shahid. I guess you were young, very young when he was in prison. I was young. I was only seven years old. But I remember that time. Do you remember the first time Marwan was in prison?

What did he mean to you as a Palestinian child back then? I'm sure you were a child. And also later, what does Marwan Bargote represent to you now as a lawyer who works for the just causes of the Palestinians?

So, um, so I grew up in Amman, uh, and, uh, the, my, my first memories of anger and the deep feeling of, uh, injustice, uh, in relation to Palestine started during an intifada. Uh, but, uh, and, and to me, the symbolism of an intifada as, uh, like as an uprising that had a very clear, uh, purpose and also that the, that came after such a multitudes of, uh, Defeat and despair and rather to also say that we still stand very strong.

And I think that was for me that in general, it was a very formative moment of my life and of my consciousness. And I trace all of, you know, the The spark of the anger started during that moment. We were even in Amman, we were school children coming out and protesting the streets and whatnot. And it really baffled me trying to comprehend what was happening around me.

And when we are thinking of the icon in this case of Marwan, he is also an icon of the Intifada as well as the youth movement. In his capability of leadership at the moment of guiding the youth, but also in the coherence of his own revolutionary agenda. So sadly, my own understanding of the icon and image of Marwan came a bit later as I grew up.

So the first time I came across him was during movements in Jordan for the prisoners. So there was a huge movement. And that was, I believe, around 2014, I apologize. But we had a huge set of protests that were happening. And that's when it came to me that we have our leaders in prison. And also this idea that inevitably Israel has really repeatedly tried to deprive us of any symbols or icons that would be able to unite us all and give us that clarity and sense.

And that became very clear to me as I was engaging with that campaign that early on.

Yeah. So Arab recently, the Free Marwan campaign was launched and many people know that. It's now supported by more than 200 cultural artists and so many other people around the world. But the question that people might ask, Marwan, your father has been jailed since 2002. So why now to launch the campaign?

What is on risk?

Honestly, after October 7th, the attention on the Palestinian cause overall obviously has been rising. And there has been a question of Palestinian leadership. And I personally feel that it's my personal opinion. It's a shame on every Palestinian. We don't have a leadership that is capable of coming up with political initiatives that can change the status quo.

We can't keep waiting for the international community to throw ideas at us and we have just to accept or not accept. The other thing is that everyone understands that in order to have a legitimate, credible leadership, you need democratic process. And since that, there is a huge gap in there. His name started coming up as the most popular Palestinian leader.

It was natural. The reason why we waited until end of last year to relaunch the campaign, because the original campaign was launched in 2013, was The international one from Nelson Mandela's cell by my mother, Ahmad Katrada, Desmond Tutu. It was supported by Jimmy Carter, Angela Davis, and many legends around the world.

The reason we waited until then is that because We felt he has a real chance to be released with the exchange. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. And we know why it didn't happen. But that's where we said, OK, now we have to go for the campaign. Why? Because I think, first of all, let me talk about it from a Palestinian perspective before I talk about it as his son.

Yeah. From a Palestinian perspective, the biggest slogan in the world right now is free Palestine. And if you go to a protest and you ask 10 people, what do you mean by free Palestine? You're going to have 10 different answers. In my opinion, that's a problem for any movement, because if you don't have a specific ask, you're not going to get what you want.

And what we did is that we said, free Marwan, free Palestine, and to turn this into an anti-apartheid movement exactly like the South African experience. And there are many similarities that have been drawn. And the most interesting thing is that, like, they asked me, like, how did those similarities start?

And I tell them that the first person who drew those similarities is Nelson Mandela himself. In 2002, right when my father went to prison, he said that what's happening with Marwan Bragooth is exactly what happened to me. And I thought that this is a great opportunity to give a specific ask to everyone, free Marwan and free Palestine, so we can have a leadership that is representative, but also someone who has a political vision.

He has a very clear political vision. We are not talking about someone who is only popular because people love him and humanitarian issues and all of that. The other thing is that he is a unifying figure. If you go back to 2006, until today you are not going to find any document that was signed by all Palestinian factions except the one that he initiated in 2006 and it was signed by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and all Palestinian factions with no exceptions.

And it had a clear vision of what roadmap we have in order to establish our independent state based on international law. The third thing is that he's someone who respects international law and respects the laws of of the struggle and what we should have as the limitations of the struggle is against the targeting of civilians.

He has all the profile that can be even accepted by the international community and not only by Palestinians. And it was the perfect moment, honestly, to launch that campaign. We felt that there is a lot of appetite to support Palestinian leadership by the public figures. And the interesting thing is that those 200 It's not only the expected, the usual suspects, if you want to call them.

It's not only them. It was, you know, people like Paul Simon, Sting, Stephen Fry, Bono wrote an article calling for his release. And it was very important. It's very important to let people understand that this is not a divisive leader. This is a unifying leader. And as a son, I have obviously a very simple dream.

I want to be able to see my father with his seven grandchildren that he's never met before. And it's as simple as that, to

be honest. We will come back to the internal Palestinian politics. We will also talk about international law. And I know when you said your father respected international law, Shahid smiled because I know. I'm sure you're thinking Marwan respects international law, but international law does not respect us Palestinians.

Is that true? Yeah, that's a good point. But we will come back to the international law and internal Palestinian politics. Yesterday, You were invited on Pierce Morgan, and then Pierce Morgan showed you a video. It must be painful, I know, of being here, that man. So threatening your father in a prison.

Let's see the video, please. Sure.

Ben Gavir, one of the psychopaths on this Israeli government, and I've used that phrase repeatedly and quite deliberately, because I think they're doing enormous damage to Israel's reputation, he posted a video of himself taunting your father in his jail cell, telling him in the video, You will not win.

He who messes with the people of Israel, he who will murder our children, he who will murder our women, we will wipe him out. As your father tried to interject, he added, you need to know this throughout history. That was the first time your father had been seen publicly in many years. Many commented on how he looked, that he looked older, gaunt, you know, not very healthy.

When you saw that video, what did you feel about it? I mean, I felt appalled. I felt really angry because Here is a man who has advocated for the peace process, who has supported the peace process, who has supported international law, who is getting threatened by a bully, by a terrorist in Bengvir. And unfortunately, Bengvir is still He's still operating.

He's still doing whatever he wants with the Palestinian people, with the Palestinian prisoners. And I think, as a son, it was a shock to me to see my father in this condition. And this is important to highlight that my father has been put in solitary confinement right after October 7th, even though, obviously, he has nothing to do with it.

He has been tortured, assaulted multiple times. Do you ever get to see him or speak to him? I haven't been able to see him in four years. I haven't been able to speak to him in four years. I haven't been able to hug or even touch my father in 25 years. In 25 years? Yes. And this is an experience that thousands of Palestinians go through.

I wish I was alone in this experience.

Wow. You say, I wish I was alone in this experience. And I didn't know that you did not hug your father for 25 years. Even back in 2004 and 5 and 6, you were not allowed to touch your father, to hug him. You haven't talked to your father for four years and you say, you wish you were alone in this. And I know there are thousands of other Palestinians who are imprisoned in Israel, who are not charged.

Thousands of them are lingering in Israeli prisons in administrative detention. But can you share with us what is the latest with your father's health, if you know what is happening to him now?

Yeah, so less than two weeks ago, the lawyer was able to see him. The lawyer is the only one who can go and see him, which is not easy because sometimes they don't give him permission for months. And sometimes he gets lucky to see him once a month. He's still losing weight. He's still getting assaulted.

And it's a regular thing inside Israeli prison. And it's worth noting that More than 100 Palestinians have been killed inside Israeli prison. And I want people to imagine, because everyone, like, we've become numbers on, you know, your great book. And when we hear more than 100 Palestinians, we move on.

But I want people to imagine, like, people in prison getting killed. Like, these are people who have nothing, who are not presenting any threat. And I can tell you that about, of course, Dr. Adnan Bursh. It was like a tragedy that has happened. We can talk about Abu Ashab, who was literally beaten to death by a baton, and they kept hitting him on his head until part of his skull was on the floor, left for hours bleeding, just to give an example and a lesson for the other prisoners.

And there is a guy... Who actually painted my house. He's the sweetest guy. He just had a newborn daughter. And right after October 7th, he was taken from his home and his father followed them just to They refused. They kept him in an open area, under the sun, with no water, with no food, for two days until he lost his life.

And these are just tiny examples. These are examples of what Palestinian political prisoners are going through and still going through at the moment. My father has lost so much weight. He's barely 54 kilograms at the moment. And his condition is not great. Two months ago, he was shot from point black by a rubber bullet in his leg.

He got ribs broken last year. And this is just a continuous thing that he's going through along with the thousands of Palestinian prisoners.

It's a lot what you're going through. I'm really sorry for you and your family. Shahid, I want to come to you. When we talk about Marwan al-Bargouti, we're not talking about any other, any political leader in Palestine who is working outside of the framework of the Oslo Accords. Marwan al-Bargouti was one of the Fatih leaders who did the Oslo Accords, you know, and According to the Oslo Accords, this peace plan was supposed to lead to the Palestinian nationhood.

It was supposed to lead a peaceful path. But yet Israel decided to imprison one of the leaders of Fatah, one of the Palestinian leaders who are working within the Oslo Accords. What is it about his case that is striking to you as a Palestinian? And how do you see things going? In terms of the Palestinian and Israeli negotiations.

So to begin with, and it must be made very clear, like, and I think a good part of Palestinian youth agree with me on that point, which is that the Oslo Accords are not only void, but, and, and, are not fit for our time and age at the moment as it stands. And also if and I really highly encourage young people from the whole region to go and study the history not of resistance, of course, not just in Palestine, but In the region as a whole.

And there it will show you that at that moment in history, the amount of political coercion that was in front of us led to that moment. It was and I would usually like, you know, call 67 the start of that, you know, the series of defeats for that generation. And standing in their position at that moment in Oslo Accords, I'm not someone who's able to, you know, weigh how the pragmaticist position could have been and also the fact that people were being killed as we speak.

So the leaders would have had to make very, very difficult decisions. But the reality is, at the moment as it stands, Israel never had any intention with the Oslo Accords, starting from moment one, and it doesn't have any intentions to go forward. In reality, this is not someone to negotiate with. These are not people to negotiate with.

And our future can only be a future that looks at that moment in history as one that is not a What differentiates Marwan from that generation, which is a generation that is very troublesome and actually one of the biggest problems that we have now, I always use the analogy of, you know, that generation sits on top of the young generation.

You know, like when you have, like, what's it called, the butter coming up and the things under it are not able to breathe. And you have rotting generations under it that are not able to breathe with that generation that really... We should confront, and we still haven't confronted that, and we can talk about that later.

The differentiation here in relation to Marwan is that—is, well, when your enemy himself recognizes you as someone who holds And who also could be a unifying figure that could overcome kind of that sense of defeat, let's say, the first thing that you do is to try to limit that voice from behind. And really the story of Marwan is one that reminds us how the Palestinian political future was repeatedly killed before it was born.

Like Marwan's position at that moment, how would it have been also different if the opportunities or the material conditions had changed? And perhaps the Israelis were able to see that going forward and be able to... Not allow that voice to flourish or even that possibility. They kill the imagination before it's even born, you know, and especially for our generation, which, you know, I always say that it's as if we drank defeat from the milk of our mothers, you know, it's like, you know, just just be happy with what you've got.

And we don't even have. What that compromise had meant, which would mean, and I'll finish at that, the urgent need for a radical change in our imagination of the future that really overcomes the limitations of that time and age because we exist in a very different time and age that allows us to get rid of that past and history, at least in our imagination of the future.

Wow. I want to come back to you, Arab. Sorry, I'm asking a lot of questions.

No, it's fine. It's good.

There is one article. It's a colonial world. The son of a terrorist speaks out. So you mentioned before that your father was called a terrorist and you say that this word, a terrorist, is a colonial word. What do you mean by that? And can you explain more about it?

Of course. I mean, if you go throughout at least the modern history, you're going to find that Terrorism was never used for what terrorism actually means. It's a label. When Nelson Mandela was imprisoned, he was designated as a terrorist, and he stayed as a terrorist almost until after he died, I think, in the U.S., and only in 2008, in the U.K., he was considered not a terrorist.

Same with all the liberation movements. Like if you go to Algeria, for example, the French were calling the liberation movement terrorists while killing millions and millions of Algerians. And I refuse that. I refuse that because it lost its meaning. It's an empty definition. If you're going to call my father a terrorist and not to call Ben-Vir and Smatrich and Netanyahu, I think... All the Israelis.

And yeah, because if, you know, if we want to apply international law, I think maybe a significant percentage of the Israeli population will be in prison because they have served in the idea of they have killed people, especially in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, in Palestine in general. So I don't play that game because it's a Western definition.

And I think one of the things that I personally faced coming here and going around the world, campaigning for my father, having fun interviews in BBC, CNN, and all these mainstream media, the tactic that they use against us Palestinians, which is not used against Israelis, is that they want you on the defensive end right when you sit down for an interview.

Definitely. And that's a tactic that you have to defend yourself. You have to defend your position. You're never given the space to say that here is my life. Here is what I'm going through. This is wrong. And we have the right to resist. International law is not only not respected on the ground, it's not respected within the media as well for Palestinians, because right now I don't dare to talk about armed resistance, for example, even though international law supports it clearly, clearly for all.

But once you say it, you become a threat, you become really tensed, you don't know if you can go back home or not, and all of that security threat. So I think that terrorism label doesn't mean anything anymore. Especially for Palestinians. And we should get out of that defensive mentality and make sure that people understand that it's not about we're humans and all of that.

No, we're not only humans. We have a great culture. We have the right to live in freedom, to live with dignity. And if that right is not given to us, we have to take it.

I agree with you. And I think also this word was stretched way too much. Everyone is now called a terrorist. If you're a Palestinian, I was called a terrorist, believe it or not. I would make a horrible terrorist. But even your former sister-in-law was referred to because she was married to the son of Marwan Barghouti.

It's way too much. And I don't think we should take these people seriously anymore. If you call us terrorists, okay. We should flip this logic against them because the Israeli army is a terrorist army. We should say it out loud without any fear. We Palestinians, we have been the victims of this terrorist army for the past 80 years and everyone who supports this terrorist army.

They are propagandists for terrorists and they should be called terrorists too. That's what I think. And I know you might not agree with me, Shahid as a lawyer. But I mean, this logic, it has to stop. It has to be It has to be changed.

I refuse the notion of terrorism to begin with. I don't think it's legal. I don't think it has any value. And the moment someone brings it up, it's

not well-defined. Because if it's well-defined, then Israel will literally be the definition of it. It is made up in colonial times. Yeah.

So basically, for example, when the French were asked to apply the laws of war on the detainees or the prisoners of war in Algeria, the response was this is internal politics and these are my terrorists. So it's a way. And when that notion is taken up by a fascist state like Israel, that means that it's basically trying to more or less justify mass murder.

So it should have been a red alert. It should have been logical. We shouldn't have had to, you know, be always stuck with trying to do it. And to be clear, the United Nations wouldn't use that. With all my disrespect for it, not respect, they wouldn't use that notion. And also, if you've noticed, the BBC wouldn't use it as well.

In relation to us, but also if you overuse a notion, it loses its meaning. And in law, it creates an exceptional space whereby you'll be able to, for example, when you designate a specific group, that means that discussion around it becomes a trap. And what that does is that it cancels the discussion about this and it cancels even consideration of it remotely.

You cancel it in people's minds. So it's a political tool and it's a classic case of using the law as a tool to distort people's understanding.

And they overuse it right now. So if we're looking, calling a terrorist, they're calling everyone a terrorist now. They're calling people who are standing for Palestine going in demonstrations. Lawyers. Terrorist lawyers and judges.

Mentioners.

Yeah, it's very annoying. But at the same time, look, we are four Palestinians sitting at the same room. We disagree on so many things. But at the end of it, we agree on justice, end of occupation, end of colonization and So much things related to human rights. But all of us would be attacked by this machine, political, media and the Israeli Zionist machine.

Can you tell us an example of you being, you know, you're a Palestinian, Jordanian, you're a lawyer, you work in human rights and you are active and vocal voice against Zionism and injustices. Have you ever been attacked?

Thank you for that. Well, speaking of the right to resist, when I was working for the International Court of Justice case, I was asked, what do you want to make your submission about? And the first thing that came to my mind is I want to talk about the right to resist. Perfect. And the sad thing is, is, of course, and this is something that really should be clear to the movement.

At a Quote-unquote allies who exist in the liberal international law sense, but who stop at us being victims, you know, and not that. Perfect victim. Yeah, perfect victims, exactly. And they don't recognize, like, you know, you want to see me as human? You need to see me as having the right to bear arms when someone does this to me.

It's a very simple equation. And sadly enough, there wasn't even that much written about it. The reason why we actually have the right to resist so clearly articulated international law goes to Georgia Bissar. Who's an Egyptian international lawyer who worked, you know, but then the but then there was a moment that the United Nations were all of that.

What was happened, what happened in 1970s when they recognized the right to resist was completely disregarded. So anyway, so I was. So I was really excited. I went ahead. I wrote it. And then for very complex reasons, only very small parts of it made it to the court, even though the court did eventually in one of the opinions by Judge Charlesworth, she did say that.

But we need to also recognize that Palestinians have the right to resist. Also, shout out to Judge Amun from Libya, who also in the past said that. So what happened is that I had this very long legal analysis of the right to resist and the law for Palestine wanted to publish it.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, sure, we'll review it. And then it was October 2023 where that conversation was happening. And on the day of October 7th, I got phone calls saying that we want to publish this. Ironically enough, my phone wasn't with me that day, just to indicate how horrible I am with my phone.

So I didn't notice. But anyway, it was published on October 8th that I say that the Palestinian people have the right to resist by all means available. Okay.

Of course I expect the outcome.

So the British media jumped on it, and they're like UK academics that support terrorism, and even colleagues, and this was so shameful, jumped on it. And I have had to have very long conversations with colleagues, and as you said, whenever we go on the platform, the main problem there is the presumption of bad faith against me.

You have to defend yourself. You know, it's just because of where I come from, so it's expected, you know, I say Allahu Akbar and kill people, like this is... How we breathe. Yeah, exactly. And I have to justify against that presumption, even in colleagues. And I'm like, and I remember one long voice, like a call with a colleague where I reached a point like, so you want me to tell you that I'm against violations of international humanitarian law?

Like, I have to state this out. Just because I have the right to resist doesn't mean that I want to violate international law.

Israel doesn't have the right to resist or defend itself because it's occupying power. But no one's saying anything against them.

Exactly. So anyway, so after that, that was kind of the start of that. But of course, I was very proud of it. And alhamdulillah, because it was all in legal language, so the response wouldn't have been as harmful to me as possible. But yet I try to do my best to experiment as much as possible how far you can go by talking about this and also challenging the limitation.

And I would say that this is a very big problem of our ecosystem where the line is drawn there. How do you understand my rights? And also, what do you presume against me? And of course, after that, it followed. In academia, there's a lot of bullets that you can take to say the right thing. And ironically enough, colleagues with way much more privilege than I do, we're not able, we're not willing to take these bullets.

So, and I'm very proud that I took these bullets, but yeah.

They survived, though.

The risk is not that high as much as just also seeing as much as just seeing how much, you know, you just be put on the fringe or denied opportunities and whatnot. And that's fine. I'm really happy to, you know, to do my part. But yeah, sadly, as it shows you the clearly and I've made it almost my one of the most important bits of always just bringing it back to the table whenever I'm asked to speak and to make sure that people not only say that in abstract, but to actually understand what it means on the ground.

How on earth did we manage not to, you know, not to centralize this understanding?

Yeah, but it goes beyond that. For example, Suez expelled its Palestine solidarity president. Haya Adam and at King's College at least 26 students were dragged through disciplinary investigations for pro-Palestine activism between October 23 and November 2025. My question to you Shahid, is this scattered overreach or a machinery?

Of oppression running through the British universities.

It's a machinery all deeply integrated. Let's be very clear. First of all, British universities are corporations. They're moneymakers. So when you have a moneymaker, that means they're interconnected to the global economy and they need to have

a professor at a university now.

They need to please their investors. And where do you have the most money? You have the most money in the arms industry. And this really should be something to really consider in the sense that the global economy as we know it today is deeply integrated into the same machinery that facilitated this genocide.

Happened at the universities is the number one example of that. But also the the prosecution of anyone who tried to go outside of just simply the humanitarian narrative of via and also like and maybe if you allow me like this, this goes Even further, you know, to the fact that we have to limit ourselves and our understanding of our own political discourse in these very liberal, even human rights language, which I find to be very limiting, sometimes very good to safeguard yourself, especially for students listening out.

There's a lot that you could do with this language that will allow you to keep your principles true to your principles. But what really what revealed itself is, and it wasn't very surprising, but like, you know, because academics know this. We talk about this all the time, but we just managed to talk about that in closed rooms and in really sophisticated language.

If you go to one of our conferences, you'll think we're like the most, you know, justice. And then outside of the room, And the first example came when you just look at who pays our salaries. And you will find that, sadly enough, and especially in the elite universities, elite universities, the more elite, the more Zionist influence that you have.

And sadly, the Zionist influence is deeply interconnected with the worst industries in the world, Which are the arms industry, the surveillance industry and whatnot that terrorize the hell out of our students, especially those with consciousness. And sadly, some of them now are in prison due to that.

Yeah, but there is still some hope because we know now that Osama Ghanem, the King's Cross, the King's A college student has the suspension of him has been lifted, alhamdulillah. And a day ago, Sarah caught from Sawas, the graduates from Sawas. The jury, within two hours, less than two hours, they were able to, you know, to release her from all the terrorist charges that were put against her.

So there is some hope. It's a little bit, I know, but there is something that people can work for

and believe in. So the same paper I said, it was actually, that's the same paper I used for Sarah Kut's case. So I was asked as an expert and it was... It was hilarious because suddenly I was an expert on that. And I expanded it a little bit. But then it was because once it's presented, it's undeniable.

If you say in abstract, you know, that I stand next to the writersist, Then international laws on your side, and that creates a very big problem for the courts.

Very clear resolutions on that, very clear resolutions for the UN. So it's insane that Zionists and such groups attack students for such positions. But also it's not just the students, but Zion delegates have been denied access to the US and they didn't get visa. And Hossam Zumlut here, the ambassador, was also calling for it and speaking about it.

So it's like it's a huge dangerous attack on any Palestinian action or a pro-Palestinian action.

We have a video now going back to your country, Jordan. Let's watch it together, please. You grew up there.

No one in this assembly should assume its ambitions stop at Palestine. This Israeli government's expansionist appetite is now a regional threat.

And today, Syria is the warning the international community is choosing not to see.

Repeated incursions, creeping territorial expansion, new facts imposed on the ground, including around vital water resources. Step by calculated step Israel is testing how far it can go. And every time the international community looks away, Israel learns that it can go even further across borderlines and legal limits.

What do you guys think of this video?

So I love this analogy because I've always said that the Israelis are like the Israeli government, especially, they act like a child. A child when they're growing up, they start testing their parents and, you know, cross the line. And once you tell them, no, you cross the line, they start to come back from it and learn that there is that line.

Unfortunately, with the Israeli government, I think for 80 years, no one told them that this is the line. So they, in their minds, they started with, okay, we have a right in this land because 2000 years, our ancestors, In Poland and all of that, they were in Palestine, no proof for that, of course. And then they started with, we just want to have a homeland.

And then they thought, okay, 1967, why don't we take the whole of historical Palestine? And nowadays you can see that, like, even the two-state solution, if you go back just 10 years, 15 years, with the Israelis, they never were this public about their refusal of the establishment of the Palestinian state.

At least they were lying that, of course, yeah, yeah, we support the Palestinian state, and on the ground they would kill any opportunity of the Palestinian state by the settlement, by suffocating Gaza, and so on. And if you go back throughout our history, If you have a history of negotiations, and I highly recommend the book called Tomorrow is Yesterday.

It talks about like the details of every negotiation round between Palestinians and Israelis. You're going to find that each time we're negotiating for less. And that was their strategy from the beginning because they never believed in a Palestinian state. They never believed in Palestinian existence on the ground.

And I think this analogy really is exactly how the Israeli mentality is when it comes to the Palestinian cause. And now it's even more normalized within Israel. To talk about the Greater Israel Project and southern Lebanon and parts of Syria. And in a bit, they're going to talk about Jordan, about Sinai, about all of this.

And it's just crazy to me that this is so normalized and they're never called out for it. But it seems to come from, you know, the public and the public campaigns that are against them. The other thing is that... Since we just showed the UN in general, the fact that everyone is making a big deal about Ed Sheeran, It tells you that there is a big failure within the politicians and the political community in general that we're looking for pop stars to be the moral compass in such, you know, an unbelievable historical issue like the Palestinian issue and the Palestinian cause.

And I think that there needs more accountability. There needs to be more accountability and responsibility by the international community, because historically speaking, they have been absolutely complicit in our suffering.

Thank you. But at the same time, Arab, if I can take this question to you, Shahid, recently we have been hearing a lot of politicians, world leaders, Ed Miliband, for example, condemning and sanctioning the Israeli settlements, world leaders at the UN condemn Israel. What does that even mean to you? I mean, when you hear a leader say, I condemn Israel, I condemn the actions, what does that mean to you?

So first of all, I'm never waiting for the moral consciousness of the West to rise up, nor do I expect it to. It's a power politics and this war will only be won by changing the dynamics of it. And as to the more recent movements, the UK has not radically changed its movement. It's complicit in its totality in the ongoing genocide.

And to be honest with you, after the future of negotiations with the state of Israel died in Gaza. And after the genocide, there is no negotiation. This is it. This is the red line of every single train of thought. It's all over. It's a free Palestine, a whole free Palestine and the Justice Project as imagined in its totality and its full totality.

And the only way we can go forward with that is through actual non-compromising movement that actually leverages what we have internationally. And what we have internationally is the peoples of the world, the majority of the people of the world standing next to us. Also, they have—they share with us the same pain of the same system that led to the genocide.

We have a historical opportunity that can only be realized if we set aside that. And so—and building on this, I just— I just want to also come back to a very important point. One of the main criticisms that I have is that a lot of people think of the liberation of Palatine as separate from the region without understanding the dynamics, what happens with everything in the region is inevitably there.

So our imagination of the future needs to be very deeply connected.

That's a very important point, Shahed, and takes us to the last question because of the time constraints. So what is our imagined future? We know that the elections are coming soon, the Palestinian elections. Hopefully. Hopefully. And 2021, you know, Marwan Barghouti was going to be to stand for elections, presidential elections.

But after that, Mahmoud Abbas have called it off. Do we think that the election will go this time? And what's the future that we imagine for the Palestinian states?

If so, first of all, the I don't think they're going ahead. And also, if you open the door of the elections for me, I try to open the door of the elections and I can just smell despair. Because the existing political factions not only do not represent the people as it stands, the discussion doesn't represent the people as it stands, and we inherited too much dead weight, so to speak.

And is there like any point of elections under occupation?

No, because the only thing that we need now, from my perspective, humbly, is the only thing that we need now is a liberation movement. And for that liberation movement to have a strategy of liberation, as in what are the principles that we agree on? And forgive me, but I don't think we are South African.

I don't think South Africa is a win. I think South Africa is South Africa is still an appetite state. You haven't had. And if and again, after the price that we paid, we will only ask for the highest imaginable future, even if it means So in terms of, for me, any political movement that needs to come needs to have a clear understanding of the strategy and the goal.

And these strategy and goal need to embed themselves with both anti-colonial and anti-capitalist movements across the world that need to be aligned with that. And in terms of tactics, for the tactics to negotiate and understand the current political economic juncture and where do we stand next to it?

And most importantly, a unified representation of us that where we're We're able to engage with the rest of the world. As it stands, our representation, people who claim to represent us are a hurdle, not a support. They push us back a lot. And building on it is also understanding that this was The whole region was one before the British came into this.

So understanding that inevitably our struggles are deeply not just connected. We all say our struggles are connected to the global south, but we never look at how our struggles are really deeply connected in the Levant region as well as in Egypt. And for me, the imagination of the future starts by actually reviving that spirit of youth of thinking about our own economic cooperation and our own future as a strong nation with taking all of these lessons.

With a unified leader, that takes us to you because you said, inshallah, we need elections. So what do you think about that? What's the future of Palestine?

Yeah, I hear you on all what you said, but I think to be... Pragmatic about solutions. I come from a business background, but unfortunately I have to sometimes wear the hat of a politician, which is something I've never imagined. And I think that we need to have our priorities. And for me, the biggest priority and the biggest urgency right now is to rebuild Gaza and to bring life back to Gaza.

And I think that sometimes it's great to have aims that are high. And we will have those aims, but at the same time to take into account the reality on the ground. And I think the reality on the ground says that in Gaza, the life is unimaginable. It's an unbelievable situation that we have to make sure that people get The genocide still continues.

And, you know, going to a bathroom is a big hassle in Gaza right now, let alone the killing, let alone the bloodshed. The second priority is that we have settler terrorism at the highest rate in the West Bank. And I don't think that if we, let's say we decided we want to go for a third intifada tomorrow in the West Bank, they will wipe us out.

And we have to be realistic. About these things and see what is our goal. Our goal is to exist on the land. They want to kick us out of the land. If staying on the land needs that we unify, we have democratic renewal, we have all of that, We should go for it. And the third issue, of course, is the prisoners issue.

But we shouldn't forget the Palestinians inside Israel who are getting, you know, discriminated against by law, by all of that, the Palestinians in Jerusalem. And for that, I think the only way to get democratic renewal is a democratic process. And once we have a democratic process, hopefully we have a new blood of leadership that can really change the status quo, that can represent us the right way.

That takes me to the other priority that we should all think of, which is the fact that we have more Palestinians in the diaspora than in Palestine itself. And they have responsibility on them. We have great, great people, some of the best people around the world when it comes to the talents, to the people who know exactly what needs to be done in Palestine.

And I don't think we're utilizing them the right way. If you look at the Israeli diaspora, they are doing everything for the Israelis. They're providing them with the lobbies, with the protection diplomatically, economically. And so on. And we need to have that for Palestinians. And in order for us to have that, we need to restore a new leadership that can have a new path and can give, you said despair multiple times, you said hopelessness multiple times.

I'm not allowed to talk about it by my father, because he's always said that this is a privilege that we don't have as Palestinians to feel hopeless. And I know that takes a lot of Energy, sometimes it takes toxic positivity and so on. But we need to stick to that. And I believe that if we have elections, honestly, we will have a new leadership.

And once we have that new leadership, it can represent the Palestinian people. And it's on us to choose the right leadership for that.

Thank you very much, Arab. Thank you very much, Arab. And thank you very much, Shahid. I really enjoyed the last part. We Palestinians, we are diverse and we have lots of sometimes disagreements. We have lots of different backgrounds and different tactics and strategies. But we all agree on one thing.

We want Palestine free. We want Gaza rebuild. We also bought the BDS campaign. So for now, let's boycott Israel. Yes. And inshallah, soon we'll have another discussion where we talk more about the internal Palestinian politics. Thank you very much. Due to time, we'll have to end it here. Thank you, Arab, and thank you, Shahid.

Thank you so much. And thank you very much, our audience. Please watch our previous episodes and stay tuned for our next episodes. Every Wednesday at 7 p.m. Thank you and bye-bye.

Have a lovely evening.

“Future of Negotiations with Israel Died in Gaza” | Arab Barghouti & Shahd Hammouri

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